Open 91 - Trendy and Subversive C9 - Over, before 656

[armlx]

Confirm.

[armlx]

We need the one replacement, and raider needs a prod.

[armlx]

Vote BlakAdder

Dice voting etc etc.

---

Vote Count

armlx (2) - BlakAdder, Bulvox

Bulvox (1) - PimHel
BlakAdder (2) - raider8169, armlx
Natirasha (1) - Natirasha

Not Voting: Apothecary

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

Actually I don't have more.

[armlx]

Hey, BA, you have to unvote too.

[armlx]

I want to hear responses from why both sides of the raider-BA argument feel their action was relevant.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Bulvox

For jumping on not only the wagon of the obv inactive, but the self-vote gambit.

[armlx]

Post them every page or 2 is far better then front post updates.

[armlx]

Raider, does that mean post a new one each page or keep front post updated + you are using the option of front post at top of each page?

[armlx]

I like it when mod modifies the top post of each page to reflect the votes as of the first post of that page. It just makes it easy to find is all.

I agree with this option.

[armlx]

Also, @ Armlx, what Raider-BA argument are you talking about?

The whole him calling you out for unvote/revote.

---

Vote Count

Apothecary (2) - BlakAdder, Bulvox

Bulvox (2) - PimHel, armlx
Natirasha (1) - Natirasha
BlakAdder (1) - raider8169

Not Voting: Apothecary

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

Well you didnt have to vote but it is fun.

Actually, he did. Its still sorta the random phase.

Raider, why did you feel that BA's unvote + revote was necessary to attack?

[armlx]

But asking for reasons behind actions without them just looks like you are setting up for a mislynch.

[armlx]

How am I setting up for a mislynch? Questioning someones motive for something is never a bad thing.

But early game votes like that obviously don't have reason (until they put someone at 3 votes usually), so asking a question you already know the answer to.....

I don't believe this makes you scummy in itself, I'm mainly interested in your responses to my questions in that regard.

[armlx]

That's the response I was expecting/felt is right.

BA, why did you feel the vote change was necessary.

[armlx]

Not sure how starting the game off with a self vote works but to each his own.

Sometimes, esp. in large games, it can bait a wagon, which is good.

[armlx]

Self voting during the random phase can definitely be a good thing, and is only a terrible thing once the meta of it existing is pervasive.

[armlx]

If everyone goes "Oh yeah, self voting in the random stage is irrel", everyone ignores it and it becomes a random vote that gives no info. At which point people stop doing it as its bad. Then it becomes "bad" again, so people do it again for reactions.

Its a cycle.

[armlx]

Yeah, and that.

[armlx]

You attacked Natirasha for his self vote AKA took the bait.

You voted someone who was inactive purposefully in a 7 person game.

---

Vote Count... of DOOM!

Apothecary (2) - BlakAdder, Bulvox

Bulvox (2) - PimHel, armlx
Natirasha (2) - Natirasha, raider8169
raider8169 (1) - Apothecary

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

I suggest everyone who has not done so ever read a 7 player newbie game just to get the feel of the tempo of a 7 player game. Notice how short they usually are.... lets not let that happen.

[armlx]

I prefer my games shorter.

This game will be shorter, but too short = V bad.

FOS BA

for using defensiveness as a scum tell.

[armlx]

Read threw a few games but didnt find one that was 7 people.

Go to way back when.

And in 7 player games defensiveness at 2 legit votes isn't even remotely over reacting given the chance of QLs.

[armlx]

I wasn't calling defensiveness a scum tell, I was calling being overly defense, (i.e., questioning random votes) a scum tell.

Again.....

[armlx]

All I'm saying is that it seemed like you were trying to twist my words around. Simply being defensive, I have no problem with.

And what separates the two? My vote was clearly not random.

[armlx]

Overly is clearly the operative word.

What qualifies overly defensive, especially in this set up? Why is it scummy?

[armlx]

Again, questioning the point of a random vote. I know yours wasn't, but PimHel's still was. I'm going to bed now.

Ok... and thats overly defensive how? He was at the wagon point of this game.

[armlx]

No, you attacked him for it. It deserves an answer.

[armlx]

You did not really answer raider. You dismissed the question.

[armlx]

Uhh, you clearly responded to it in the next post. How did you "miss" it.

[armlx]

...........

So.....

[armlx]

How does this sound: Everyone makes a serious vote in the next 7 days. If it would lynch a person, make it an FOS just so that doesn't happen.

[armlx]

That sounds good, only why 7 days? Unless these types of games are meant to last a month for day 1 that seems a long time.

I was just giving a number that gives everyone time to respond. 5 works. 4 works. 3 might be borderline.

[armlx]

I'm posting this in all my games. My computer power cord just broke again, same issue as last time. I'm going to be on LA for a week or two while I wait for a new one to arrive.

[armlx]

BA fails at this. NOT random votes people. real ones please.

[armlx]

unvote, vote: PimHel talking as much as apothecary. seriously, and then just out of the blue voting for apothecary. seems awfully scummy to me.

Not sure if this is opportunistic or correct. Or both even.

[armlx]

I don't see getting rid of a massive lurker who is going to be of no help to us as scummy.

We have 3 lynches to hit 2 scum. You are saying essentially randoming one is the best way to do it? Especially at the point the random shot is the least likely to hit?

[armlx]

I have a relevant vote on someone. Have you found someone scummy?

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Bulvox

For jumping on not only the wagon of the obv inactive, but the self-vote gambit.

[armlx]

Or get replaced raider. Actually, I like that one a lot.

[armlx]

Toss a vote on someone and give a real reason. Then you will be making things happen instead of waiting.

This. This also applies to everyone else who was trying to BS their way through by waiting for others.

[armlx]

I could go for a Bulvox or BA lynch. BA made no mention of liking this case until now.....

[armlx]

EBWODP: He did however FOS Bulvox for being "over defensive"....

Unvote, Vote BA

Thats a good tie breaker on scummitude.

[armlx]

Hey look, BA is being over defensive! Lets vote him!

(See my point now BA?)

Oh, and your wagon support hop looks like exactly that.

And your last line is WIFOM.

[armlx]

1. I see your point, but there's a difference between giving a legitimate defense over oneself and attacking a random vote.

Not much of one....

2. I meant your suddenly saying "I also support popular wagon X"/

3. YOU saying things you would do if scum is 100% WIFOM.

[armlx]

Yeah, but you look like you are just jumping on the change of momentum.

And only you can know if that statement is true or false. Do you want me to just trust you because you say so Would you do the same for a random other player who said "Oh, I can't be scum, as I don't do Y as scum"?

[armlx]

Giving good new reasons other people are scummy helps.

[armlx]

wait, what? why are people voting for me, all i am is a townie! it doesn't make sense!

Facepalm.....

[armlx]

3. Now you see what I mean by overdefensive, armlx?

Well, sorta. Early claim is a very different thing from over defensive.

[armlx]

It really depends on scenario if it does.

[armlx]

Armlx, do you wanting BA to be lynched?

I wouldn't mind it. Not right away though.

[armlx]

EBWODP: To elaborate, I think that its the best option as of now, but now still seems really early to decide a lynch.

[armlx]

wait, what? why are people voting for me, all i am is a townie! it doesn't make sense!

Unvote, vote: Bulvox

Yeah, I'm looking at that as well. Not sure whether I'm leaning scared newb town or scum on it, though Bulvox's prior actions don't instill much confidence.

[armlx]

Because yours was pretty half assed and didn't start the wagon.

[armlx]

1. My question was directed towards PimHel.

For future reference, a quote of Pim's or referring to him would have made this clear.

[armlx]

Well, Bulvox is at 2.5 votes (HOS from BA + second suspect of myself). As good a time to claim as any.

[armlx]

Raider, nat is no longer voting him.

Bulvox is now L-1. If you have any comments about other players, now is a good time.

[armlx]

I buy it.

BA, claim or die plz.

[armlx]

I endorse the above product and/or service.

[armlx]

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[armlx]

Policy FOS raider

for the "thank you doc" tell.

Actually, raider was 1 of 2 not on the BA lynch. Seems like a fair starting point.

Vote raider

[armlx]

See, lets look at this.

Apothecary being scum is unlikely. He hammered in a either or scenario.

PimHel is less likely scum as he started the momentum of the BA wagon and didn't change, as well as swapping off Bulvox at the start and showing legit concern after the hammer pre-reveal (weaker, but in combo with the rest...)

I guess I'm less clear then those two as my vote was at a more opportune time to bus, but I definitely had a lot of opportunity to swap off the wagon at the end there, especially given the fact I basically made the case on Bulvox.

That all said, looking back I forgot about Natirasha's hop off BA to Bulvox real close to dead line. FAR scummier then raider.

Unvote, Vote Natirasha

The scum is most likely in the group of Bulvox, raider, and natirasha just based on the wagon (Bulvox c is least likely given how BA attacked him early, but if both were scum in that scenario the cross vote is valid play). Not assured in that group, but likely. There's a chance of bussing and what not.

Also, I think we should discuss a mass claim, or alternatively a mass claim of just those who didn't vote BA.

So, basically, the cases at hand.

Raider-
BA ignored him beyond the early game semi-random stuff, but raider attacked back a bit and still voted Bulvox

Nat-
Swapped really close to the end
BA ignored Nat when lurker attacking

---

Vote Count

Natirasha (1) - armlx

Not Voting (5) - Natirasha, Apothecary, raider8169, PimHel, Bulvox

With 6 people remaining, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

I dont think claiming would be the best idea just yet. Only because I would like to hear from everyone first. After that then if that is what people want I am for it.

Like I said, I want everyone's opinion on the subject before me move ahead with this.

Also, the reason to mass claim today is so there's no WIFOM in LyLo if someone counter claims a power role claim. If that happens today, we just lynch both over the next 2 days. We will have 2-4 confirmeds if we do claim today (doc, cop/nurse, possible cop investigation if it wasn't the doctor, and whoever the doctor protected if it wasn't a cop/nurse or who a cop investigated).

[armlx]

Armix, I wouldn't have thought that having a mass role claim would've done us any good. But who knows.

Mass claim clears 2-4 people as I said.

If we wait till tomorrow, mafia can counter claim someone and force us into a 50/50. If we claim today, they can't do that as we lynch one today, other tomorrow.

[armlx]

apothecary could have hammered Bulvox instead which would have resulted probably in lylo (if I'm correct).

That is correct.

I agree with armlx. Thanking the doctor is most of the time a scum tell.

A weak one.

[armlx]

I would actually start with Raider.

Unvote, Vote Raider

I am not a Nurse or Cop. Would anyone like to counter claim Nat?

[armlx]

Unvote

Seriously.

Wait one fucking minute for people to counter claim if necessary.

[armlx]

And everyone else unvote so no one does something dumb.

Nat, this game is NOT follow the cop right now. Its

1) Check to see if you aren't lying by asking everyone if they are a nurse/cop.

2) Ask everyone if they are a doc who prevented a kill on someone other then Nat/Pim last night.

3) Check for counter claims there if someone claims.

4) If someone claims doc with a protect on myself, bulvox, apothecary or Raider, it gets obvious real fast as there's 2 unconfirmeds and 2 lynches. If they don't, we lynch raider, Nat investigates either myself or Bulvox, and as long as the doc doesn't die tonight we get to no lynch and have Nat confirm that Apothecary is town too and lynch the last unconfirmed.

So, again,

NO ONE VOTE UNTIL WE HAVE A FULL ROUND OF YES/NO ON A COUNTER CLAIM TO NATIRASHA

[armlx]

Apothecary, are you a nurse or cop?

Same to Pim Hel.

If neither of you are, Natirasha is confirmed town.

[armlx]

I have yet to have a case agianst me. If I was to be lynched it is just a waste as no information is coming out of this.

See the top of the page, and I'm pretty sure you are scum because of this. Its not a game of info at this point, its a game of most people are confirmed town and half or less aren't.

[armlx]

Raider, BA was scum is the real issue.

And epic lols at Nat lynch being logical right now, especially in the absence of a counter claim in an OPEN set up.

[armlx]

I didnt know this was an open set up. I feel stupid now.

You signed up for it in the OPEN queue.

Its name is OPEN 91.

[armlx]

[armlx]

Mod, prod apothecary please?

That is all. Raider should be lynched if Apothecary claims not nurse/cop. PimHel would then protect Nat, Nat checks Bulvox, GG somewhere along the line.

And if Apothecary claims cop/nurse, lynch Nat today, Apothecary tomorrow if game isn't over.

Actually can't lose unless we lynch before Apothercary counters and he then does.

[armlx]

Nope. Lynching you first because you keep demanding to live.

[armlx]

Again.

NO LYNCHES UNTIL APOTHECARY CAN POST TO CLAIM COP/NURSE OR NOT

After that, raider dies in horrific lynching fashion unless there is a counter.

[armlx]

Hey, raider, nice one. I did that 2 pages ago when you got to L-1.

[armlx]

Hey, raider, why don't you unvote like you told me to?

The contradictions are boundless.

[armlx]

What reason would I have to unvote?

Uhh, less potential of game loss as town?

[armlx]

Umm, have you not read how I posted there is no way to lose if we just wait for Apothecary?

Does voting look like waiting?

[armlx]

As I am first on the chopping block do you really expect me to not have my say?

Actually, pretty much yes.

We can have a perfect town win here if you can just lynch the scum. That is what I am going for.

Flawless victory is irrel. try again scum.

[armlx]

Care to show proof of how I am scum? Cause you will still be here tomorrow wether you like it or not and I will be a dead townie.

The proof is that in a scenario where the town win regardless, you are pushing for your survival as an unconfirmed. As town there is no reason to do that as you win regardless, so the conclusion is you are scum trying to stay alive an extra day and maybe somehow pull a win out of a hopeless scenario.

[armlx]

It is in the spirit of the game though...

Also, see the "You didn't vote for BA" issue.

[armlx]

This is why Apothecary has a chance to turn up scum. As once I turn up town that will confirm that everyone who voted for Bulvox is town.

Appeal to emotion on the "I iz townz!" thing, and BA wasn't town.

And lols at bringing up Apothecary could be scum, then saying no.

[armlx]

If you are town, you should rethink from a position that aims for your survival and a "perfect victory" to the one that allows an instant win.

[armlx]

Mmk. moving along.

Vote Raider

[armlx]

Remember:

Pimhel protects Nat

Nat investigates either Apothecary or Bulvox.

[armlx]

Raider is still at L-1.....

Someone hammer.

---

Vote Count

raider8169 (3) - Natirasha, armlx, Bulvox

Not Voting (3) - Apothecary, raider8169, PimHel

With 6 people remaining, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

Why does it matter if you are the hammer or 3rd vote on yourself? Seriously?

[armlx]

Someone just hammer already. Seriously.

[armlx]

No one brought up a real case otherwise I would have done so

Not that it matters now, but this is a blatant lie. See the post where I weighed between you and Nat.

[armlx]

Cases aren't supposed to "confirm" people either way. Just show evidence pointing towards them......

[armlx]

Follow the cop etc etc etc

No one vote etc etc

[armlx]

Wait.

What the fuck.

[armlx]

This has to be Nat just fucking with us (in the sense of him actually being cop, and just being dumb about it).

That's the only logical conclusion.

[armlx]

Oh, shit.

There is a RB in the set up....

Doh.

I apologize for BMing the thread.

Nat and I are confirmed, and I'm pretty sure the last scum is Bulvox at this point given his not hammering of BA.

[armlx]

Right, but Apothecary did hammer was my point.

[armlx]

The point was Apothecary had a choice. He chose, if he was scum, to severely handicap himself D1 when you were a really legit choice.

---

Vote Count

Not Voting (4) - Natirasha, Apothecary, armlx, Bulvox

With 4 people remaining, it takes 3 votes to lynch.

[armlx]

You didn't have a choice though.

[armlx]

Not voting vs. voting scum partner is a lot different then hammering townie vs hammering scum partner.

[armlx]

Meh, sure. Standard scummy defense progression. WIFOM to make the pro-town play that's bad for scum seem scummy, then appeal to emotion.

[armlx]

I'll be the reasonable person here and at least give Apothecary and Nat a chance to post.

[armlx]

Because clearly, I would have been so crazy as to choose to bus a partner over an easy leave my vote on you, then decide to gamble on there being a doc in the game who decides to protect me to get a false confirmation....


The OMGUS trying to unconfirm a confirmed is a good one though.

[armlx]

I was addressing Bulvox.

[armlx]

Vote Bulvox

[armlx]

Upon finding out that the role blocker could block and kill why did you guys not no lynch?

It gets us nowhere. He just kills Nat and we end up in the same scenario with less of a buffer.

That said, I probably rushed the Raider lynch a little. I just forgot about the RB completely.

[armlx]

This set up probably needs 9 people instead of 7, ala F11.