Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD [game over!]

[Menalque]

hi, can you talk about the andres thing now pls

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osuka remember that i unvoted you and i have the power to revote you.

and why would you do that

she has daddy issues

*badum tish*

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did you do a case on shelly already I can't remember

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okay I'm trying to parse this and I can't get beyond just the two of you yelling at each other

I'll try tomorrow provided you don't just have the same back and forth for another 15 pages

osuka can you please try to do the andres thing with the quotes and everything

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VOTE: osuka

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I just

I'm fucking tired

this game is dragging

andres seems confident on this and is right that if osuka is town then the game needs much more careful reconsideration

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if osuka flips town I will re-examine shelly tomorrow

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*raised eyebrow*

this also more or less sums up my feelings on 4724

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I'm going to bed chicos, keeping my fingers crossed

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I love this

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...so?

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I'm optimistic about the not being here currently taking place

okay, and now I'm actually going to bed

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*sigh*

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I knew this was possible but I really thought I’d done enough to eat the NK this game, I fucking hate lylo

And wonderful, the choice is between the slot who’s been incredibly scummy all game and the slot who both Andres and osuka were calling for the head of at the end of yesterday

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I’m thinking, I’ll claim when I’m ready

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Whats the basis for saying that osuka always falls into stupid town shitfights?

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Also, math, did you crumb commuter at any point prior to like, yesterday

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One thing I want to make very clear tho is that NOBODY PLACES ANOTHER VOTE

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Osuka just feels like what ive seen from in his other town games. He strikes me as someone who easily gets into these tvt fights

if you need THE EVIDENCE

You found this like... very fast

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You’ve already voted so it doesn’t matter

What I mean is that none of (me, math, ydrasse) are to vote until we get to talk about a coupla things

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First we’re gonna discuss whether math crumbed commuter

Then we’re gonna talk about something else

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I see a couple of distinct possibilities for the scumteam and would like to talk about this before I (1) claim and (2) before anyone votes

I’m not exaggerating when I say that voting before we discuss the things I want to talk about is throwing or scum

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we're obviously guillotining in you and shelly today because there's conf!scum in there

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sorry for delays, I started my masters course this week and it's been busy aside from that too

so, okay. math, before we go further, I need you to go a little further into the balance argument you were making? why do you think it should be clearing for you if I claim VT?

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also, I know that while I've been away the game has been delayed and I apologise because I'm gonna delay it a little more while I get a couple of answers out of math. I should have some more time tomorrow to pass back through a couple of the key moments in the game

[Menalque]

I was originally backup JK and since D3 I've been promoted. I didn't crumb but I can point to a couple of points in the game where I think my role was very clearly influencing my play.

I was on shelly last night, but I didn't want to out this earlier because it's not actually clearing as (1) still 2 scum and (2) if shelly isn't the role stopper then my JK could just have failed. I wanted to get math to talk more about the balance thing to see if he was using it to try to buy towncred or if it was valid and whether it fit with my presence here. I think it's possible that there could be a commuter, as in I don't think it locks him in as scum, but I think probably both scum need to be PRs for that to be the case.

The possibilities for scum teams that I was talking about earlier today are that it's either:

Shelly + plus -- in this case, they've realised they're in the two weakest positions and that there's a very real risk they get flipped back-to-back if they try to defend each other so they enter with a hard bus attempt for the cred. This is currently where I'm leaning.

Plus + math -- in this case, plus and math realise they're both in vulnerable positions so math fakeclaims commuter, plus forces a 1v1, and then either they win or if it's looking like it's going wrong math busses plus and then I guess no kills and uses that to support a "scum tried to kill me so I'm conf now, we need to kill shelly".

I think mechanically shelly is slightly less likely to be scum than plus -- if she is and she's paired with ydrasse or math, I struggle to see how their play makes a lot of sense for a rolestopper. Ydrasse specifically had the game going well for her D1 and then decided to draw attention onto herself as PR for ?? reasons. But I would like to reread around the hammer just to make sure my memory is correct. Math, likewise, probably doesn't claim ascetic D1 in his opening if he's scum PR? Like that seems like it only makes sense if he's a goon and is planning to try to get confirmed using the rolestopper. Shelly could still be the rolestopper, and I am somewhat paranoid of shelly+math bringing plus to here for the easy win given that I've been susp there practically all game.

I'm not really bothering to think too much about ydrasse+shelly, ydrasse+math, ydrasse+plus teams because I have limited time and by that point we're starting to get into the whole "teams I'd be okay losing to" territory anyway.

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I feel like one issue I’m having here that’s making it difficult to view this objectively is that if plus is scum and I’ve had him in my scumreads literally every single game day and then either been talked out of it or talked myself out of it... I’m just gonna feel incredibly stupid postgame

Whereas if shelly is scum and NOT scum /with/ plus but with math or ydra then, like, I’ll be kind of annoyed for not getting it right between the two but not so much

[Menalque]

But it’s shit like this that just makes no sense to me from either alignment but I’m gonna feel worse about then losing to that if shelly is town and my TR there was good and it is just math + plus

Like I don’t understand why you ever unvote there when the person should be conf!scum to you, especially when I don’t understand what happened to the possibility of shelly/ydrasse that you had before. Like has that completely evaporated? I would expect shelly being conf!scum to you would make you more concerned about that being right again vs less

But then equally, voting math also doesn’t make sense for scum!plus because it just looks so off in an optics sense and ugh

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i’ve been going about my business and the andres nk is giving me cold feet a bit. i’m unsure if shelly would do something that like... obvious or not.

on the other hand i wonder if plus is just trying to pick a different 1v1 with math? like if shelly is town and plus knows they can’t win that way they’d rather go the route of math -> shelly.

yes, +1 on the andres NK, but I think it's all just WIFOM at this point. like, if you have someone calling for your head and you're scum, you either kill them and argue that you wouldn't do that because it points back to you and it's a setup, or you don't kill them and you claim that them still being alive is why you're not scum. I think personally the andres kill was prob much more about the fact that he's a solid analytical player who was about to re-evaluate and deep-dive the game again after finally having untunnelled himself with the osuka flip, plus he was prob the hardest possible push for scum given that he'd already claimed a PR that fit very naturally into the setup.


on plus trying to pick another 1v1 with math... maybe? like yes, if he's scum, I think that's what he was trying to do. but again it's just so incredibly inelegant that idk if it's too blatant

this is the problem with letting a slot that is verging into TSTBS territory into lylo, you just keep getting stuck on the back and forth

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But it’s shit like this that just makes no sense to me from either alignment but I’m gonna feel worse about then losing to that if shelly is town and my TR there was good and it is just math + plus

Like I don’t understand why you ever unvote there when the person should be conf!scum to you, especially when I don’t understand what happened to the possibility of shelly/ydrasse that you had before. Like has that completely evaporated? I would expect shelly being conf!scum to you would make you more concerned about that being right again vs less

But then equally, voting math also doesn’t make sense for scum!plus because it just looks so off in an optics sense and ugh

you misunderstand mena
i still think ydrasse has played a scummy game, i think scummier than ndmath even
but there cannot be 5 town prs, and since you claimed backup jk, we had 3 pr flips, and you are locktown to me
so therefore commuter is fake
ndmath being shellys partner is just my poe, so therefore ydrasse has to be town
what i think would make the most sense from a scumteam pov is for shelly to be the rolestopper and ndmath claims ascetic/commuter while doing the nk most nights so they'll be immune to everything basically

but like, why can't there be 5? there would normally be 3-4 in game vs goons, and there's 2 scum left and we know that at least one of them is PR. if the other is also PR (idk, role cop maybe would work in this setup?) then 5 TPR is very plausible

I don't understand how you're getting ydrasse has to be town here, and like it's that again you're moving math around in a way that feels like you really don't wanna be connected to him but also that you scumread him

[Menalque]

I don't think I phrased that last thought very well

like throughout the game you've moved math to a point where he's always just not quite the person you want to vote. now you've got conf!scum (fypov) shelly and yet you still vote math which just seems like hnnnng

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I should really reread ydrasse but I don't have the energy so I'm just really gonna hope andres was right alongside my own feeling that there's no way scum!ydra plays EoD1 like she did

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I don't see how you don't have this problem anyway. Every slot has to be in some way sorted at some point in games which go to lylo.

What I mean is that you often don’t want to leave eliminating a slot you think has good odds of being scum but that you’re not sure on until lylo because those slots are like crack for scum who desperately want them in lylo as a good misguillo option

Like the worst is being in gylo with a slot that you think could be scum but could have been brought by scum as bait

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I’m not gonna lie, you two can towncase/scumcase each other as you like but I have a moderately long-standing rule about not listening to anything slots who have confirmed scum in them say on the day of lylo, and instead looking at trajectories throughout the game

Which is what I’m planning to try and do once I have some time and before I make a final choice, although I would say I’m definitely leaning plus atm

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I would encourage @ydrasse and @NDmath to also look carefully at game wide progression and to avoid looking too closely at the arguments both make today (as both have major incentive to be survivalistic, to look as optically townie as possible, and to try to get the other killed)

Lmao if this is just SvS tho and we could have elimmed days ago without it making a difference

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VOTE: plusjoy

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gg everyone

just waiting for plus to turn out to be a venge after all

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Subject: Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD [dead pt]

Was i fearkilled

sort of but not exactly

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thank you for modding, datisi

thanks everyone for playing, GGs all round and would play with any of you again

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@datisi, I am

greatly

enjoying mod pt btw

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Subject: Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD VOICE OF MOD:

i have a sinking feeling that, once the game is over, people won't be too happy with this setup oh well

actually I thought it was v good but if we weren't in normal queue on mafiascum(dot)net it should lose the JK

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Subject: Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD VOICE OF MOD:

Datisi, may I just say that this is a very elegant setup design and maybe (????) actually (????????) balanced (“in

MY

normal queue!? Outrageous!!”)

i was gonna quote this here and say "haha thanks" but then i remembered that (1) he thinks the commuter is an ascetic and (2) that he doesn't know about the jailkeeper so uhhh hope he doesn't change his mind by the end of it???

I will never stop daring to dream

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Gj maf

thanks, saudade

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i was wrong on plus though. That vengful fake claim was awful even if he was right on shelly. Would always have pushed for menal lynch if i was alive that day. on the pr claim alone. not sure if i would have lynched him before plus though if he had claimed vt.

Yes, this is why we misguillotined you before the game reached gylo :p

[Menalque]

I really should have listened to Osuka and in part after they flipped I’m glad I did. I just wasn’t around to make anything happen. I constantly re-evaluated Menalque and Shellyc and always came to the wrong conclusion. Definitely a bummer for me. And I did all of the hard work of sidelining the one person that was actually on point in Osuka, and I wasn’t fair to plus. Most of my Town Reads actually turned out okay and I’m glad I was sure of Ydrasse, but overall not a good game for me.

I think you played pretty well. If you read scum PT you’ll see that I was very much focused on pocketing you and then if that failed eliminating you. The fact that you TR us meant we were able to use you as the person to push for osuka, but also that you needed to die once you knew you were wrong there because there was too much risk from you looking closely at me/shelly afterwards.

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Also, I don’t think people should be hard on plus. Was a tough game, there wasn’t really any possibility that he wouldn’t die there, and also, very much to his credit, he figured out exactly what the scumplan was: he just easy right about who was executing it.

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For anyone interested, I think a definite scumtell of mine in lylo was not referring back to the reads of dead townies v much. If I’d been town I would have been quoting the shit out of osuka/Andres/bob’s final reads, which I considered doing for cred by ultimately it wasn’t worth the extra attention on my slot/on shelly.

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it was on my mind; i spent a lot of time when i was working dwelling on it but there were too many other things that i couldn't get past.

i also spent a lot of times staring at the vcs.

I really think this is one of the hardest things as town in lylo: to go back on what you've been feeling all game because it doesn't make sense that that person would bring you to gylo, compounded by the fact that as humans I think we're more worried about losing to the person we suspected all game than we are about losing to the person who had us fooled all game

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also, regarding those posts in the scum pt: i don't remember why i joined at all! and ty for the kind words in there too.

it's okay you can tell me in a spoiler that it was me, kerset doesn't know how to open spoilers

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incidentally @plus, I think you'd probably benefit a lot from reading the scum PT if you have time, I think it will give you insight into the ways you were very right this game (the chained guillotines of you, bob, osuka) while also maybe helping you see what the rest of the gameplan for us was that you missed. don't lose heart either way! that ability to read what the scumteam is doing is difficult to pick up and I think you have a decent sense of it already -- if you can fine-tune the "appearing town" bit of your game and improve on the "who benefits from this gamestate the most as scum" bits then I think you'll make a very formidable scum hunter!