Open 92 - Vengeful Mafia (Game Over!) before 656

[Mirth]

vote:Surye

Let's lynch him and get this over with.

Also, ~waves at Farside~ I was going to "random" vote you, but that got old already.

[Mirth]

Also: Oh, Caboose, must you really claim town this early in the game? It's damned annoying and only makes me watch you more carefully.

[Mirth]

vote:Surye

Let's lynch him and get this over with.

Also, ~waves at Farside~ I was going to "random" vote you, but that got old already.

So you vote for the mod instead.

vote: Mirth

Yeah, it's only 3 to lynch. Come on, join me on the dark side, Luke, I am your father One more and the mod can dance the Danny Deever.

Caboose: so you don't want to be looked at closely? Pity. If it weren't for the damned 3 people to lynch thing and this was a normal game, you'd have another vote on you from me, here, btw. Your blatant admission of wanting to avoid scrutiny *after* you soft-claim townie *in your first post* will earn you an FOS.

FOS:Cabose

[Mirth]

It was a joke? Which part? The trying to get away from my suspicion or your soft claim? Because both spark me as bad. I also love the "they're being mean to me!" finger pointing you're doing right there. Do you think that you don't deserve suspicion?

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Since you're defending him, what about the other part where he apologizes for it?

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As for credit, since I forgot to answer that. While I tolerate soft claims from newbies more than anyone else, regardless of the intent, they invoke more intense scrutiny from me.

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I am a meanie. But you should know this already. This is our what, 5th game together? You couldnt possibly have come into this thinking I'd be nice.

In all seriousness now: so you dont think either of his posts warrant any suspicion in the least? Not even the second one?

[Mirth]

vote:Forbiddanlight

While I think Caboose has earned major scum points, you just earned bigger scum points for putting him at L-1 on page 2 with barely any conversation and no responses from him to the suspicion against him. There is absolutely no need to hurry as we're in LYLO from the getgo.

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I dont not understand most of your post but you're so sure he's scum on page 2? after only 2 posts from him?

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And you shouldn't be certain from only 2 posts and less than 2 full pages.

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So, you want me to use a vig kill on a likely townie?

Please explain.

I didn't express myself well there. If you are scum, then it's good for you to die. There's the fact that no one will hammer for a while though because of the possibility you are town. Because of that possiblity, scum would have to be foolish to hammer, but guess what? The only way you die if you AREN'T scum is if they hammer. Thusly, taking you to L-1 is a completely safe action.

Both this post and Caboose's previous post are crap logic.

Caboose: how do you know who is a likely townie?

FL: the problem with the post is that it assumes scum will hammer. In this scenerio you are tacitly stating that both you and SSF must be town and that Farside and I must be scum if Caboose is town. (How else would scum hammer if not for this breakdown.) You have very little to base this reasoning on. For instance if one of the two players on the wagon is scum, the lynchee is town, then one of the non-wagoners must be town. Why can't the town player hammer just as likely as the scum player? You post just makes me more satisfied with my vote, though Caboose still keeps his FOS.

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Thank you for continuing to make me happier with my vote by just claiming town after jumping on Caboose for doing it.

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SSF: what do you think of FL right now, since you seem to have ignored my altercation with her.

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Same thing. You had absolutely no reason to do it. In this game, there are no power roles. Thus everyone pretty much claims townie just by playing. There is no reason to outright say "I'm town." Caboose implied it, yes, but you had even less reason to claim (whether soft of not) than he did especially after he drew heat for it.

As to you wondering, I might be scum, I might not be scum, think what you will. And yes, I am attacking anyone that posts. I thought that you would have known that from WOMAFIA. As to being sure, I'm not sure yet, nowhere near as sure as you claimed to be right before abandoning your vote rather strangely, and, frankly, I hardly ever would so much as support a lynch before page 5, but you've been making me more convinced with your posts. Do I want you lynched right this second? No. Am I starting to be convinced that you would be a good lynch? Yes.

[Mirth]

Claiming is still scummy because there is no reason to do it.

And yes, the unvote was strange. If Caboose is scum, his lynch would still be just as safe regardless of SSF's alignment. If SSF is scum with Caboose and jumped on the wagon for early distancing, and then either Farside or I made an intention to hammer known, scum-SSF couldn't very well jump off the wagon then without arousing suspicion. If SSF is town and you are town but Caboose is scum, and there is a hammer from either Farside or me, then, well, one less scum and not in Lylo anymore. No harm done either way as they both end with dead scum. If Caboose is town, then two of us remaining 4 are scum, and at least one person on the wagon would have to be scum, to say nothing of vote positions. This is potentially harmful depending on who is vigged, yes, but you do not know that this is the case. There is an equal chance of Caboose being scum as there is of him being town (2/5), so the potentially harmful is equal to the potentially beneficial here. You were ready to abandon your case when I pointed out a logic flaw, but, had you actually taken the whole thing into consideration you would have seen that a flaw in your reasoning did not actually change the chances of outcome. Your unvote, then, seems like abandonment because after being so convinced about how right you are, you let it go at something that did not clear Caboose as town.

If I'm suspicious for throwing stuff around, why wasn't I suspicious when I started throwing stuff around at Caboose but only now when I'm throwing it at you?

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Because at first it felt like you really believed your case. Now it's beginning to feel like what I said. But, this is inconclusive.

...

And also, isn't it the hammer that dies? Because all my possibilites get fucked up if I 'm wrong, but it does make it safe to vote him again. Well, safe as anything.

I am never 100% convinced about anything in the first few pages.

Also, as to killing the hammer, I have never played this set up before, but I would think that policy-killing the hammer would be stupid. Town could just as easily hammer as scum. (Example: both scum are already on the wagon, townie does something REALLY stupid, other townie hammers. Insta-loss) The vig kill should be based on a player's actions more so than on vote position.

[Mirth]

So why are you revoting Caboose exactly? Please explain your reasoning?

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Why isn't L-1 dangerous anymore? If he's town he doesn't actually have to take direction, you know.

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Also, I'm kind of sick of this pretty much being a back and forth between me and FL. Can someone else please post?

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Why isn't L-1 dangerous anymore? If he's town he doesn't actually have to take direction, you know.

You once again misunderstand. He can direct the vig if he's town. Whether that's good or bad I know not. But it's not only the hammer that gets killed, which is what had me concerned. If it's the hammer and he is town and SSF is scum, then it'd be a wasted kill. Now, the thing is, I still think he is scum, so it'll be alright. I also think you are possible scum, but need to see more. Either way, I think everyone will wait before hammering since anybody is a target.

Also, I'm kind of sick of this pretty much being a back and forth between me and FL. Can someone else please post?

Be nice, ne?

I understood you fine. But if Caboose is town he isn't forced to listen to the peanut gallery about who he vigs. Also, if SSF is scum, and you and Caboose are town, that hammer could be scum so an autovig in that case would only have a 50% chance of loss.

The second part was more that I hate it when not everyone else participates, nothing against you.

Farside: I'm not Mith. I lack a Y chromosome Would you consider your read on SSF gut then? He's had all of 2 posts, is this enough for a read, since you agree with me there isn't enough on Caboose? But you're right about people apologizing. It actually bothers me a whole hell of a lot more when people don't fight back.

unvote:FL

I do not agree with L-1 so early in the game.

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Eh, I do, but I'll hold off answering and let SSF say it himself, I don't see a contradiction there.

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I was being cautious. I figured that, because FL's behaviour is directly related to me, you may be scum with a cunning trap set up to "catch us both out".

So what exactly are you scared of being caught on?

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And what hypothetical trap was I setting for you, exactly?

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Only in their wording, since you seem to refuse to say what you think I'm trying to do.

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Actually, you'd get brownie points in my book for a comment like that (not liking that someone assumes you're town) regardless of my actual reaction to you. But are in negative brownie points for self-censoring. I bothers me, a lot.

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Farside: I object to keeping someone at L-1 in a game this small unless 90% positive of wanting to lynch that person.

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Farside: I object to keeping someone at L-1 in a game this small unless 90% positive of wanting to lynch that person.

Yet you have no issue with Caboose sitting at L-1? I know you aren't voting for him, but why do you think he is still at L-1? Do you think his comments deserve for him to be at L-1?

I do have an issue with Caboose sitting at L-1. See my discussion with FL for putting him there, removing her vote under a rather flimsy reason, and then putting it back. I think he's still at L-1 because it doesn't seem like SSF is too interested in actually playing (would be great if he actually did), and FL thinks attacking Caboose so surely will get her brownie points. And no, I think his comments are very suspicious, but he doesn't deserve an L-1.

[Mirth]

And I think that you can't be that positive from his 4 whole posts.

[Mirth]

And I think that you can't be that positive from his 4 whole posts.

I agree with the above post.
Mirth why do you think SSF is not paying attention? Do you really just write him off as possible scum?

I'm not writing him off as anything, but I don't have very much to go on in regards to him. I think he's not really paying attention because he doesn't really provide comments of his own volition and his comments to my questions leave much to be desired. I'd like to hear more from him. He made a couple of decent points but it feels like he's not really trying to get involved in any of the conversations the three of us are having.

FL: all fine and dandy, but this is a 5 player game, we start off in LYLO, so excuse me if I think you need to amend your playstyle for this. Can't be sure of finding scum page 1, and I'd really like a lynch that isn't one part lack of enthusiasm and one part "I'm going to convince myself that this person is scum because I already voted for them."

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Farside: maybe. I don't know. Inactivity really doesn't do it for me unless it's really really bad. Though I do ask SSF to either step it up with the playing or get replaced by someone who will.

FL: so I'm scum for trying to start conversation/get somewhere? Then I must be/must have been scum in every single game I've ever played. Also I'm loving your flirtation with the votecount on Caboose. All this jumping is rather sketchy.

Caboose: is there any possible protown reason for calling a barely playing player (or any player at all for that matter) protown when we're on page 4, in LYLO, and neither you nor he have done much in the way of scumhunting?

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FL: so I'm scum for trying to start conversation/get somewhere? Then I must be/must have been scum in every single game I've ever played. Also I'm loving your flirtation with the votecount on Caboose. All this jumping is rather sketchy.

Ways and means. You aren't precisely provoking discussion so much as making a case for everyone and seeing what people follow. It's hard to explain better than that, though it goes beyond that, but I've seen it more often in scum than town.

Making a case for everyone and seeing what people follow? If that was the case, I could have just hammered Caboose already (assuming he and I aren't partners). Or stayed on you and pushed your lynch harder, because, honestly, you're not doing yourself any favors with your play. If I wanted an easy lynch, it's there, sitting on the platter, in the form of you, and could have been pulled off already. I doubt anyone would have faulted me for keeping you at L-1. Yet I'd really rather just hear from everyone here and get a discussion going where everyone is participating.

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I refuse to comment about vig kills yet, since we have not even agreed on a lynch. I'm not going to be planning anyone's death, especially since spouting who you want vig killed might change who scum attack for lynch purposes. We should not discuss the vig kill until we all commit to a lynch (that is 4 of the 5 of us agree on who needs to die), and then discuss vig kills before placing the hammer.

FL: do you actually have proof for why Caboose and I are scum buddies? Because your whole argument against me is a bunch of WIFOM about my playstyle. And your Caboose is scum convictions are based on 2 posts from him. Please step back from this game for a day or two, meditate or something, and then do us all the favor of a reread.

Caboose: unless this mod has dramatically different rules, Invisatext is a big no no.

[Mirth]

Why SSF and not Caboose?

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I'm going to be completely without game access until Monday. I need to leave for a funeral. I apologize for the inconvenience to you all.

[Mirth]

Hi, I'm back. It might take me a few days to catch up with all my games since I have a large backlog of work to do, but I shall try to get up to date tomorrow. Sorry for the absence and all

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I just caught up with my newbie games, just have this and 90 to go. I'll be getting to this after I catch up with 90 (hopefully later this day, possibly tomorrow morning). Sorry for making y'all wait.

[Mirth]

Okay guys, sorry for how long this took me, catching up with this game now.

SSF 104: Trying to stop yourself from being a target of what exactly? And how? By not really playing and writing off my questions? Saying I wouldn't have attacked doesn't prove anything, but the important thing here is your paranoia, not whether I would have attacked you. Your lack of actually playing is starting to really bother me. "Oh I'm scared I'll say something wrong". What do you have to hide them?

SSF: why do you think Caboose's first posts merited a lynch and why don't you think so now? And where did you get 3/4 from exactly? (Though I agree about FL's knee-jerking.)

Farside 105: what bothers me here is how you're willing to accept Caboose is townie with so few posts. As for not calling SSF out, I call him out on what I think the issue is. You might also notice that I turned off my attack on Caboose when he disappeared and I'm not really attacking you either.

FL 106: except you don't actually have too good of a case on either of us. Your supposed case on me is WIFOM about my playstyle. (Seriously, what was the last game I didn't jump down everyone's throats?) Your case on Caboose is based on 2 posts. These are weak, you admit they're weak, and yet you say you're going to keep pushing them just because you started pushing them in the first place. This is a crap reason. Seriously, step back from the game and actually read it.

FL 108: If you really think I'm the GF then you should be trying to lynch me not vig me. Except you're not really trying (because you don't actually have a case).

FL 112: what do you mean by scummy misrepresentation?

Farside 115: good point here about FL not addressing SSF

FL 121: why are you convinced I'm scum with Caboose exactly? Have you found any actual evidence of this since you started with your finger pointing? You are really starting to frustrate the hell out of me because of your lack of a case. I don't care who you're trying to get killed, even if it is me, but you're "they're scum because I said so" argument is making me want to tear out my hair and scream.

Caboose 124: I believe she's taking issue with the fact that some of us won't just blindly jump on any given wagon to hammer and will actually take the time out to discuss the merits of the wagon.

FL 128: or, if you have such a bad memory, you could always read back. I know we're at a whole six pages and that it would be a mighty task akin to washing out a stable by redirecting a river, but maybe you should give it a try. I've been accusing SSF of being inconsiderate to the game, I think I'll add you to this list. If you don't remember what was said, you could do us the courtesy of a reread instead of continuing to latch onto something on poor grounds like a rabid chihuahua biting a heel.

FL 130: sorry, I was at a funeral, otherwise you definately would have heard from me.

Farside 134: you seem to really enjoy pimping out the baby pictures but as for lives, well I don't have a life at the moment due to the training thing I am currently in, but the lack of life takes away from mafia too...

FL 137: "Caboose may or may not be scummy" and yet you spent all this time voting and attacking him for being obvscum. This contradiction bothers me. Agreed about not having data on SSF since he is taking every chance to avoid giving us an opinion. Agreed on no read on Farside. As for me, this is not a case. Considering I could have ridden two bandwagons right now (including your own) I don't see why you think that "I'm trying to find a case" There is a rather good case on you. Yet I am not voting you despite you being the single most scummy person here because I don't want this day to be over yet. This post also bothers me with the "I'm willing to vote any of these 3 people" thing. Clearly the three of us cannot all be scum together. It sounds like *you're* the one blindly groping for a lynch with whichever way the tide is turning.

Farside 138: it's hard to form an opinion of him with his only answer being "if i say something, you'll misinterpret it and mislynch me" it definately rubs me the wrong way but I'd actually like to get some real playing out of him.

Caboose 139: you get a really protown vibe out of her willingness to blow with the wind and her lack of an actual case on anyone?

SSF 142: Not dodging questions? That is an outright lie. You haven't answered mine.

All done. Wee.

[Mirth]

I want you to find a case of your own for an actually valid reason. By this I mean if you are going to be suspicious of Caboose, suspect him for more than just 2 posts, if you're going to be suspicious of SSF, suspect him for more than just Farside suspecting him, if you're going to suspect me, suspect me for my actions and not a misrepresentation of my playstyle.

As for why I'm not voting you, with your horrible tunnel vision on me you're missing the other possibility. Maybe you're right and I'm not voting you because I'm scum and I don't want to die. Or maybe you're wrong and I'm not voting you because I'm town and I'm not ready for a lynch, especially if it ends up being a mislynch. Unless you are scum you cannot be sure of which it is, yet you proclaim to be sure at every oppurtunity. What is one to think?

[Mirth]

You're "still feeling out [my] reactions" but are saying that I'm definately scum and deserve to die? You keep contradicting yourself.

Since you are making zero sense, I'm going to ask you to do an actual case on me. With a PBPA and everything.

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Farside: I oppose clearing newbies on the basis that they're new. They could still be either town or scum just like anyone else. I'm leaning no-read to slightly scummy on Caboose.

SSF: You don't post because you're afraid I might twist your posts into a slipup. I think my paraphrase was fair.

And when I asked where you got the 3 out of 4 from, I meant who were the 3? I know for a fact that while I think she's likely scum, I'm no where near ready to vote her to lynch yet.

As for nonparticipating, I don't mean your number of posts (this is a non issue to me I don't think lurking is a scum tell), it's that most of your posts don't actually say anything.

FL: how am I pushing lame points when you are clearly and repeatedly contradicting yourself? You say I'm scum and deserve to die and then you say you're feeling out my reactions, which means you can't be sure. If you were sure, then there wouldn't be any reason to feel anything out.

As for assailing you, am I shouting "lynch FL right this instant she is obvscum"? No. I'm asking you to make some sense and actually provide some reason to why I must be scum besides "she's aggressive."

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FL: how am I pushing lame points when you are clearly and repeatedly contradicting yourself?

Because I'm not. Trying to paint it that way is scummy when I've explained why it's not contradictory.

How is it not contradictory. I'm defscum but you still need to think about it? Please explain this to me. In small words. Like I'm a developmentally challenged child who doesn't really understand english

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FL I am waiting on you to a) answer my question (this is getting circular as you are answering with half of my question) b) explain to me in small clear words why SSF is all of a sudden a better lynch than I am and c)why you think I'm scum in PBPA form.

I'm going to collapse now. usually check all my games at once but its been a 13 or so hour day and i cant function. brains taste like grapefruit, i would assume. weeeeee.

[Mirth]

I have restated my question multiple times. You have written it off like you're doing now.

Let me try this again.

You want me dead, yes? If you want me dead, you are advocating that I am scum, yes? You are certain in this belie since you have not even considered a hypothetical where I am not scum, yes? Yet you say you need to gauge my reactions, yes? Therefore, if I am definitely scum, why are you wasting your time with generalities of "oh I'll watch how she reacts"? Why are you, being so convinced yourself as to my scumminess, not trying to convince everyone else of it by making a case against me (you just refused yet again to explain why exactly I'm scummy past the non-tell of aggression)? Why are you, by your own words, going after SSF just because he's more likely to be lynched? If I am scum and you are certain I am scum, then all of these attempts at mitigating your position on me (which has been strong to the point of a battering ram) make you look even more suspicious, especially since you won't substantiate your case against me. I also ask again, you suspect me, Caboose, and SSF. All three of us can't be scum.

[Mirth]

What if you're wrong about 2 of us, FL? Have you completely stopped considering Farside?

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What if you're wrong about 2 of us, FL? Have you completely stopped considering Farside?

This just comes off desperate. You haven't even shown suspcion on me and now you are asking FL to question me?
This looks more like a last minute ploy to save the godfather.

Who is the godfather then? And you're right, I don't really suspect you either. FL is at the top of my scum list, then theres a bunch of space with Caboose and SSF tied for second, then there's a bunch more space, and you.

Mostly, though, I'm really just not liking FL's play the most and I think I've been vocal enough about that.

[Mirth]

I think FL is much scummier, and if you're all ready to settle for a lynch (I think we should talk more), since.

vote:FL

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What am I supposed to talk fast about? The case on SSF was rather weak, FL's vote was rushed (as soon as I voted her she jumped on his wagon), and I think FL is scum for her mountains of crap logic from the previous day. I think she's the godfather and jumped on SSF when she say it was either her or him.

vote:FL

(btw I have not been home in something like 36 hours, so excuse the terseness but I am drained and tired.)

[Mirth]

So I'm right about your horrible play? So nice of you to admit it.

[Mirth]

Farside: I think he was not paying attention to the game in general. He took forever to post, which would have been excusable if he actually posted something of substance. Most of his posts just came off as "I'm posting just to be posting." this is not a scumtell for me. Just a major annoyance. I'm also going to stop posting for the night now. Its been a really long day and I'm getting cranky. Apologies.

[Mirth]

What the hell? You guys didn't even wait for me to respond to your questions? This bothers me a bit. I guess I'm never allowed to have any more days when I'm too busy to check stuff on the computer then.

As to this game, no I did not think meta would save me, FL. I thought your play was atrocious. While Farside had some sort of point about SSF (though if you guys really care to use meta, I do lay off when it feels like someone just doesn't seem interested in playing), your case against me was utter crap. Congratulations Farside, since you were the one that figured this out. Though if I were town, I would also not have lynched SSF because to the extent he was not participating was still not enough of a scumtell for me.

[Mirth]

What the hell? You guys didn't even wait for me to respond to your questions? This bothers me a bit. I guess I'm never allowed to have any more days when I'm too busy to check stuff on the computer then.

As to this game, no I did not think meta would save me, FL. I thought your play was atrocious. While Farside had some sort of point about SSF (though if you guys really care to use meta, I do lay off when it feels like someone just doesn't seem interested in playing), your case against me was utter crap. Congratulations Farside, since you were the one that figured this out. Though if I were town, I would also not have lynched SSF because to the extent he was not participating was still not enough of a scumtell for me.

I see people who lay low and offer nothing a scum tell.

I see it as laziness. Scum could be involved too.

Surye: I just hate pointless claims.

[Mirth]

Not meant to be negative. Was thinking of WOMAFIA in particular. This was posted before you died in that game. Also, as I've told you before, you're an impossible read, Farside. So I was hoping you'd do what you did in WOMAFIA and get yourself in trouble without any help from either of us since you're one of the most unpredictable people I've had the pleasure of playing with multiple times. Alas