Open 796: Haunted Village Game Over

[Battle Mage]

Town pings on Tayl0r because she feels at ease in her early posting.

Bad take. Taylor-town does not give impression of trying. Taylor appears to be trying here. Ergo, Taylor scum. Additionally:

so the mafia has a strongman, rolecop, and roleblocker. since scum already knows what town has, is it worth it for town to speculate about what roles town has? it cant hurt right?

This is completely pro-scum ^

based on posting so far i have already deduced who all the town PRs are and who we should kill tonight.

oops, wrong thread.

awkward joke about being scum, always scummy

VOTE: Taylor Swift

[Battle Mage]

Bad take. Taylor-town does not give impression of trying. Taylor appears to be trying here. Ergo, Taylor scum. Additionally:

I have a bad habit of reading scum claiming as towny. I'd love to see the data on how likely it is to come from town vs scum.

-Lance

My experience is definitely it's a scumtell. Not that more scum necessarily do it than town, but the ratio of scum:town doing it, is higher than the ratio of scum:town in games. So it slightly increased likelihood of scumflip above random.

[Battle Mage]

Oh, so this is going to be a very talkative game from the start, alright. Sure.

Let me see if I can follow along. With how this setup works, if you're good at maths and all, you can kinda mechanically guess what sort of PRs town could have based on how many points were spent for the Undead? I will admit I am unfamiliar with the setup or how any of it works, so already starting a step or so behind there. Is there any sort of benefit to theorizing that, or is it more just a good place to start early game conversations? I can't remember the last time I played an Open so forgive me, my logic is rusty on ideal play.

I have no idea why anyone town would want to do this.

[Battle Mage]

actually im very nervous but fortunately no one seems to have noticed my scumslip. i feel like i covered it up pretty well.

Where is your scum-slip?

-Lance

11

i can see the setup spec maybe not helping that much. but i really cant see it hurting, and im a bit suspicious of those who are pushing back against it. this is info SCUM ALREADY HAS. lets level the playing field? for VTs it wont help much, but for PRs theyll know what other PRs are in the game, at the very least.

Could help scum find the PRs though

^This, obviously.

[Battle Mage]

Oh, so this is going to be a very talkative game from the start, alright. Sure.

Let me see if I can follow along. With how this setup works, if you're good at maths and all, you can kinda mechanically guess what sort of PRs town could have based on how many points were spent for the Undead? I will admit I am unfamiliar with the setup or how any of it works, so already starting a step or so behind there. Is there any sort of benefit to theorizing that, or is it more just a good place to start early game conversations? I can't remember the last time I played an Open so forgive me, my logic is rusty on ideal play.

I have no idea why anyone town would want to do this.

What do you mean?

see murdercat post 65. scum already knows what PRs we have, but doesnt know who has them. if we speculate about what they are, it'll be pretty obvious to them who is and isn't one.

[Battle Mage]

So it's bad, got it. Just was trying to understand why it was a discussion in the first place. Thank you for explaining.

no probs mate

[Battle Mage]

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

[Battle Mage]

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

Fair sentiment, may just. But I'm genuinely curious why she thinks that. The explanation you and Murdercat gave seemed solid enough to me as to why it was a bad idea.

she's probably just brazen scum. i recently played another open setup with taylor and she was scum and made a similar move on day 1 - openly trying to encourage town to make an obviously anti-town play. inexplicably she survived until day 3...

[Battle Mage]

taylor just despises BM's playstyle.

What about it?

i dont like BM's logic
i dont like BM's posting style
i dont like BM's strategies
i feel like i dont like BM as a person.
BM always tunnels me (and i have started returning the favor).
its just always a shitfest with BM in the game.
BM has gotten town!me killed with poor nightplay as PR.

I'm not going to respond to personal attacks - your opinion really shouldn't matter to anybody, and it certainly doesn't matter to me. Most of us just play these games to have fun. I can't help but feel if you don't understand some of my logic or strategies or whatever, you could benefit from asking me about them?

Re: tunnelling, I don't "always tunnel" you at all - it's actually the opposite, but I mostly ignore it because it's a distraction and I actually play these games to try and win, not with some personal baggage.

The final point is a reference to an ongoing game, which is against site rules. It's also not a remotely accurate reflection of what happened, so maybe you'll get away with it.

None of this has any bearing on your alignment in this game, where you are likely just scum as I've already explained.

[Battle Mage]

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

Fair sentiment, may just. But I'm genuinely curious why she thinks that. The explanation you and Murdercat gave seemed solid enough to me as to why it was a bad idea.

she's probably just brazen scum. i recently played another open setup with taylor and she was scum and made a similar move on day 1 - openly trying to encourage town to make an obviously anti-town play. inexplicably she survived until day 3...

Would they do it again?

- Norwee

why not? it's a bold approach as scum which she is clearly capable of, and it makes little sense as town.

[Battle Mage]

so first of all taylor isnt inactive here. taylor just despises BM's playstyle. taylor does joke around as either alignment. and taylor does become more active and better at reading as the game progresses (as both alignments). and taylor stands by doing setup spec.

i dont think you can backtrack now and suggest you were 'joking around' when you were trying to out town PRs.

[Battle Mage]

so first of all taylor isnt inactive here. taylor just despises BM's playstyle. taylor does joke around as either alignment. and taylor does become more active and better at reading as the game progresses (as both alignments). and taylor stands by doing setup spec.

i dont think you can backtrack now and suggest you were 'joking around' when you were trying to out town PRs.

This is a misrep of that post though, Tayl0r says she stands by doing setup spec in this post.

I mean, she said both. I don't think anyone is going to argue over whether she did 'setup spec' or not - that's perfectly clear. I saw the "joking around" bit as either a justification for that, or potentially paving the way for that justification later. Felt it was worth nipping in the bud early.

So I think "misrep" is a stretch.

[Battle Mage]

i mean... BM immediately jumped down my throat, even putting an RVS vote on me and then pushing me as scum and telling people to ignore me. its not shocking. i can play on given that. but i do have to defend myself, and i was asked a direct question about my feelings about BM. if thats an issue i dont mind being replaced. but its not such an issue for me that i cant be civil.

i don't think me voting for you, or thinking you are scum is against the rules.

i specifically told 1 player to ignore you when you were trying to argue that town should out it's PRs. Again, that's not a personal thing and has no relevance to other games. You can argue it's discourteous, but in game terms, I was trying to mitigate against something which is likely to hurt my wincon.

A personal attack on me based on your misinterpretation of other game(s) was not a proportionate 'defence' to you being scummy in this game. I don't know why you have feelings for me, but I thought the Mod's clarification on rules/etiquette was helpful.

[Battle Mage]

ah i cross-posted, whoops!

[Battle Mage]

So I think "misrep" is a stretch.

Ok, maybe a misinterp then (I think it's clear what Tayl0r was saying and I don't think it was justifying the discussion around the setup).

I don't agree that was clear - it was slightly ambiguous. I'm content that I made my position on it very clear. You can call it pre-emptive perhaps?

[Battle Mage]

what's your take on the parallel between this and Noir Mafia?

[Battle Mage]

It's hard for me to say, when I use meta I usually look at both scum games and town games and try to develop a priori things to look for to avoid conf biasing. I am not currently reading much into your interaction but there is only a ~50% chance you are both town based on random draw so I think determining whether 1 or more of you are scum will be a useful place to start.

that's interesting on 2 counts.

Firstly, I thought you would have some opinion about the parallel with Noir Mafia situation, and be willing to share it, as you had recognised it too. I had an expectation of what your opinion might be, but am more surprised you didn't share one. Although I appreciate the need for balanced meta, that doesn't preclude you reflecting on whether 2 situations/behaviours are comparable.

Secondly, I struggle to see what you're getting at with the probability thing. Isn't that the same with any 2 random players? And if you aren't reading much into the interaction, why even bother picking me and Taylor? Getting a slightly weird vibe here that you're starting with the presumption of at least 1 of us being scum, which wouldn't accord.

[Battle Mage]

They don't call me Clint Eastwood for nothing.

- Norwee


(Nobody calls me that)

i went to school with a clint eastwood. i remember he used to get in to fights with the other fat kids.

[Battle Mage]

Ah right, okay. Thank you.

I might be alone in thinking that meta is largely useless, especially if you have enough awareness in your own trends to purposefully use it to confuse people, but I am finding the comments on it so far interesting.

other people do think this, although I don't. meta is very useful for 2 main reasons:

1. to use previous games by player A to ascertain player A's alignment
2. to see if player B draws a fair and objective comparison between player A's behaviour in 2 or more games.

[Battle Mage]

This is odd but I actually have 0 clue on who scum could be, and I think taylor vs BM was NAI. I have some weak townreads though.

you really think her openwolfing is NAI?

[Battle Mage]

taylor-murder-plusjoyed are my top 3 scumpicks right now

[Battle Mage]

This cuts into why I think speculating is a BAD idea. I think we have a limited number of VTs to the point where the apparent gain isn't as strong as one might initially think.

Also I'm not impressed by BM's treatment of Tay so far.

This appears to be inconsistent. Will you explain yourself?

[Battle Mage]

i can already tell this game is going to be hard work.

[Battle Mage]

i can already tell this game is going to be hard work.

You can die night 1 and let me do it if you want?

it's almost inevitable i die night 1 here lol

[Battle Mage]

ah no, that wasnt a shot at you Noraa. I'm actually happy you're here. maybe you can help us turn this around!

[Battle Mage]

Now that I've resolved the probs with my expert Noraa-ness, lets solve the game together

i truly think flipping Taylor-scum will progress the game nicely

[Battle Mage]

bad reads from cobra kai

[Battle Mage]

Reads are changeable, it’s not like the game is made or broken by my reads on page 9. Is there a read in particular you disagree with? Why?

im town, taylor scum

[Battle Mage]

when i flip town, for goodness sake elim her lol

[Battle Mage]

im jaded. i have no confidence in my ability to get people to actually elim the scummiest player without it being a sympathetic dying wish.

[Battle Mage]

im gonna take a break after this run of games finishes

[Battle Mage]

when i flip town, for goodness sake elim her lol

this scumpings

why are you already tunneling battle mage? It's page 10
I think that looks like an excuse to tunnel a town

are you arguing with your own post?

[Battle Mage]

i mean like, i obviously dont care if it scumpings, it doesnt matter.

as long as once i die, and am town, you actually get it together and flip scum.

[Battle Mage]

i'm sometimes confident. i'm more often confident than i am correct. but i do think taylor is the scummiest thing ever.

[Battle Mage]

im not sure what to make of those defending her. i dont think shes the sort of player you would bus mind.

[Battle Mage]

why are you already tunneling battle mage? It's page 10
I think that looks like an excuse to tunnel a town
I'd probably vote battle mage if they got gladiated with taylor

battle mage literally always tunnels me.

this is not true.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage are you the kind of player who exaggerates confidence to make a point, is just always confident, or usually isn't and somehow Taylor is just the scummiest thing ever?
It does seem disproportionate but it reminds me of Noir a lot and it didn't mean you were scum there

BM is always very confident. It's not always a bad thing but tunneling town especially can be disastrous.

my reads are right sometimes though

[Battle Mage]

i do think this is a very different gameplan from taylor compared to her towngames, and very similar to her scumgame.

[Battle Mage]

i think we've already learnt quite a lot. an unusually high number of people defending taylor without grounds.

[Battle Mage]

I think its his normal play which is coolio and all but rn tunneling isnt gonna help us get a Taylor lim even if she is scum :/

ehhh disagree
if a tunnel nets a scum elim its a good tunnel

yeah im not sure when a taylor elim became some impossible feat

[Battle Mage]

i do think this is a very different gameplan from taylor compared to her towngames, and very similar to her scumgame.

well I personally dont see it yet and even if she actually was scum, tunneling her is actually prolly gonna do the opposite of what u want it to do.

ah you shoulda been there noraa. it's so real i can smell it.

[Battle Mage]

i think we've already learnt quite a lot. an unusually high number of people defending taylor without grounds.

oh shit guys he caught us
the entire scumteam swapped to defend taylor cause 1 person is tunneling her in the first 10 pages
ggs time to concede

...

bad comedy aside, it's perfectly plausible that 1 or both of her scumbuddies would defend her.

[Battle Mage]

noraa wanna join my xoxelf wagon

no.

I think its his normal play which is coolio and all but rn tunneling isnt gonna help us get a Taylor lim even if she is scum :/

ehhh disagree
if a tunnel nets a scum elim its a good tunnel

if a tunnel ends up discouraging everyone from limming a scum, its a bad tunnel

ah true, but what's a guy to do?

[Battle Mage]

noraa wanna join my xoxelf wagon

i think we've already learnt quite a lot. an unusually high number of people defending taylor without grounds.

oh shit guys he caught us
the entire scumteam swapped to defend taylor cause 1 person is tunneling her in the first 10 pages
ggs time to concede

its an awfully big scumteam. ~5 people.

i think you mean its a decent sized scumpool within which to search for your partners.

[Battle Mage]

Hello Dunnstral, long time no see. I believe we played together back in 2016.

Yes, I remember playing in a game with you

I’m townreading Noraa, Taylor, +joyed, datisi hydra, and leaning that way on murdercat. For scum, I’m thinking xofelf and maybe battle mage.

I’ve played my fair share of games, but I want to change some things stylistically and am giving them a test drive.

bad reads from cobra kai

when i flip town, for goodness sake elim her lol

this scumpings

Not really for me but I don't care for his attitude

waa waa

[Battle Mage]

One last thing, can someone explain who the other RC is? I kind of like the RC abbreviation but it sounds like someone already uses it here lol

Rosso Carne

[Battle Mage]

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

Fair sentiment, may just. But I'm genuinely curious why she thinks that. The explanation you and Murdercat gave seemed solid enough to me as to why it was a bad idea.

Could just be dumb instead of scum. I don't underestimate people's abilities to just be bad.

I do think I need more time to have any sort of reads on anybody, but I do think I at least like where BM's head is at. Reminds me of a handful of other players that I've had good feelings about in the few games I've played this year.

Also hi Gamma <3

these two posts are unbelievably rude considering we dont know each other at all. and that might be coloring my xofelf read. on the other hand, it seems like a really cheap reason to scumread someone and dismiss them without actually having to do any work to sort them, so this also genuinely pings me as scum.

doesn't strike me as rude? but more importantly, it didn't appear to be setting up to scumread you - rather xofelf made an excuse for you to defend you (i.e. anti-town rather than scum). Why do you think xofelf-scum would defend Taylor-town so baselessly, but in such a way which doesn't pocket either?

[Battle Mage]

doesn't strike me as rude? but more importantly, it didn't appear to be setting up to scumread you - rather xofelf made an excuse for you to defend you (i.e. anti-town rather than scum). Why do you think xofelf-scum would defend Taylor-town so baselessly, but in such a way which doesn't pocket either?

just ignoring someone is kinda rude. saying someone is probably dumb is ruder.

well done for not answering the bit which actually matters for the game.

[Battle Mage]

*gives Taylor and BM more marshmallows*
shush children.
ur both amazing people ok?

aww shucks

[Battle Mage]

doesn't strike me as rude? but more importantly, it didn't appear to be setting up to scumread you - rather xofelf made an excuse for you to defend you (i.e. anti-town rather than scum). Why do you think xofelf-scum would defend Taylor-town so baselessly, but in such a way which doesn't pocket either?

just ignoring someone is kinda rude. saying someone is probably dumb is ruder.

well done for not answering the bit which actually matters for the game.

xofelf was not defending me.

what part of "shes not scum, shes just dumb, leave her be" is not a defence in this game? she was protecting you from being elimmed.

[Battle Mage]

i like Random Canadian and Taylor for scum distancing.

[Battle Mage]

just to save a bit of time and effort, general announcement that I'm not gonna engage with personal attacks and such. it's just a game, and the focus needs to be on determining alignments, rather than personal stuff.

i'll get back stuck into this one later, just taking a break for now.

[Battle Mage]

noraa flipped like 3 times in a monolgue

i normally consider that a towntell

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, I've been leaning scum on Plus but am trying to reason it out. 346 and 351 are because for the most part I think Plus's posts fit in line with my thinking that they might be scum. However, I have a bit of a harder time seeing Plus's first post fit the scum motivation hence why I asked Xofelf in 342 what their thoughts on that post were to try and get a new perspective on it.

Spoiler: Plus's calculated posts

ya i think it doesn't mean anything @bm


hold up, upon iso checking, I think there is something I missed first read
-RC voting and defending himself then leaving is a tiny bit weird, could be nothing
-xoltelf is rather sus. specifically, the fact that they joined in like 2008 and pull a newbiecard, claiming they're rusty and they've never considered option B for meta, and seem very open minded. I don't expect people to be mafia gods just cause of an early join date but I do expect them to know what they're doing and their uncertain tone feels very fake to me.
VOTE: xoltelf

This one feels like positioning himself to suspect me later and put his vote on Xofelf for rather weak reasons in my opinion.

hmm this RC wagon is koving kinda fast
i think there could be scum on it

Later, sets himself up to look at people voting me even though he helped create momentum around the wagon on me with the previous post I quoted. He eventually did look at the votes, and picked out Murdercat as the vote he didn't like on the wagon.

I also maintain my xolef scumread

When people back his read of Xolfelf, he puts himself out as still scumreading him to keep his positioning. Xofelf hadn't posted between Plus's vote and this post so why the need to post this other than to have his positioning down in writing?

i have gamblers fallacy with noraa being scum rn

Here he gives himself a reason to not suspect Noraa at the time but this one is very weak and he says so himself that it is a fallacy. This is bigtime positioning to go after Noraa later.

279 and 280 read town to me. I think I've already mentioned to you I don't need my vote to feel people out, I can do it with my voice. My vote is more a symbol of who seems scummiest.

Seeing how you would respond is part of that.

"I think Isis will be at a scum lean" sounds like justifying a scumread rather than explaining one, speaking of, why aren't you voting me?

those posts are without a doubt within noraas scumrange
agree with taylor, noraa is one of those slots that just gets solved over time.

Hints that certain posts from Noraa could be part of her scum game. It just feels thought out to me about where Plus is trying to go and leave himself many different people to possibly scum read later. This also feels like a planned progression to eventually vote Noraa. Soft scumreading her without blatantly saying it and leaving it open enough for interpretation.

Individually his posts don't look that out of the ordinary but put together, I think he has a plan to look active and comment on the things going on. Within his comments, it looks like he could have scum motivation to put himself in position to scumread many different people later on as he needs. At the moment, he has many weak townreads but none seem that strong that he wouldn't come back on later if he needs to.

I think RC-Plus is not SvS based on this.

[Battle Mage]

i would flip egotisi today. very quiet for a hydra and mostly fluff. A few questions and gut feels but not really taking many strong positions or being influential.

[Battle Mage]

I think there's a decent chance of scum in {Isis-Noraa}.

I still think Taylor is scum.

[Battle Mage]

there are reasons to suspect Plus, but on balance he is one of the less scummy player, so I guess that makes him more likely town.

[Battle Mage]

Cobra Kai is an interesting one. Remarkable in this game that he has seemingly struggled to identify scumreads but been very liberal with townreads. Weirdly I'm leaning town, as if he's scum he's tying his own legs together with that approach.

[Battle Mage]

Exorcists are the tippy top towniest players.

[Battle Mage]

like, oozing towniness. if scum, i take my hat off to you.

[Battle Mage]

I think there's a decent chance of scum in {Isis-Noraa}.
I still think Taylor is scum.

why is there scum in {isis, noraa}? And if there is scum there, who is it?

I don't know which - if I knew that, I'd have said!

there are reasons to suspect Plus, but on balance he is one of the less scummy player, so I guess that makes him more likely town.

this logic doesn't go thru. play style has nothing to do with chance of being town/scum

i don't know what you're saying here? i didn't say anything about playstyle?

[Battle Mage]

ill come back to you on the other Q Noraa - will consult the ISOs again, as im riffing

[Battle Mage]

on you and Isis, I felt the interaction between you didn't seem TvT, hence at least 1 scum. On you specifically, I think you are being very friendly and reasonable here, which although isn't AI, is making me a bit wary. Hard to explain I guess, just my gut saying you could be scum. Of the two of you, I think Isis is objectively scummier.

[Battle Mage]

I'm town, but I don't think Noraa is. That answer from her doesn't bode well.

this, in particular, pinged me as potential scum distancing

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Isis as the most viable Day 1 play probably

[Battle Mage]

The problem is that if isis ever flips green this game, I will immediately think you were setting up chain lynches here

That's fair enough!

Although having reflected I'm less sure you would be scum if Isis was town, so it wouldn't be automatic.

I think we flip Isis and see how it goes?

[Battle Mage]

I think "setting up chain lynches" is a little too conspiratorial. That's something I've seen feared since the dawn of time, but I've never gone into a scum PT afterwards and found out that scum actually set up an X or Y fully expecting to ruin two days with it.

Gesturing at a pair of players and saying you think there's at least one scum in there somewhere and picking one to try and see hasn't ever been a method I've ever found very strong, though.

wow the pedits

i can say from personal experience, i have done that as scum.

you're probably right on the latter.

[Battle Mage]

I have some curiousity about how worth that line of scumplay is, my belief that it's rare doesn't mean I believe it's a weak play.
That's kind of an offtopic curiousity though

it depends doesnt it? in theory it's helpful and sometimes essential, but in practice you're right that people get legitimately antsy about it, and so there's a risk it backfires. I think being subtle about it is probably the best value scumplay.

[Battle Mage]

pedit: Are you saying you would be capable of write 572 in sixty seconds if you needed to and that's bad, or that you could spend sixty seconds explaining why 572 is bad if I repeated my request?

i dont believe this is a serious question

[Battle Mage]

yeah egotisi lockscum

[Battle Mage]

@Datisi- I’m experienced. I’m townreading you because I’ve seen you play scum, frankly.

Reread will hopefully come tonight or tomorrow. Depends when I get off work.

I’m not playing guess the alt and am intentionally disguising my go to phrases.

Always makes me laugh when people create a brand-new alt account to play a game, and then want to claim they have loads of experience.

[Battle Mage]

Yeah I don't care about your meta, I wanna know what you're thinking and why for *this* game. Why is that your scumteam list? Do *you* have meta reasons for thinking its them? Do you have reasons from this game for that?

lol i think noraa's readslist looks pretty good. if she flips scum, i bet her buddies are in there. the main reason for flipping noraa is that she is so damn defensive - the obsession with proving your own innocence isn't always an indicator of guilt though. I can think of my own games where I've been town and exceptionally disillusioned with people nibbling at me with no real arguments. On balance, Noraa feels like LHF. If town, she has good reads and will be useful. If scum, she isn't going to survive that long anyway. On balance I'd probably prefer not to elim there today.

[Battle Mage]

i also have a feeling i know what noraa's role is

[Battle Mage]

Plus cannot provide a single reason for why I'm scum besides a reason that he cannot say bc tHe gAmE iS oNgOiNg however I think if I am the strongest SR of his, there should be more than one reason that is based on one singular game :/

Isis sussed me for a reason then dropped it cuz I was being "towny" then brought it back for a completely different reason. point is that her progression was unnatural and not well justified either. It all seemed like scum trying to seem like solving but not actually solving.

interestingly one of the early pings I got from Isis was the LACK of progression in her reads

[Battle Mage]

No harm in guessing. Not like imma tell u if it's right or not anyways.

lol im not gonna guess, but if im right i might feel better about vouching for you

[Battle Mage]

Noraa has lots of unfairly caught scum vibes, but then I keep changing my mind

I think doing something with my vote is better than nothing so I'll go VOTE: Taylor for now.

Somewhat scummy that she'd warn people her energy was going to be lower instead of waiting to get pressured since she's usually so devil may care.

I'm townreading lots of things

nice distancing here, i'll bite

VOTE: Taylor

[Battle Mage]

Ok I'm going to case Battle Mage.

90 misinterps Tayl0r as I pointed out at the time. I think this comes from a fast read of the post looking for something to poke at more often than it comes from town who I think would genuinely read it.

110 feels realllllly weak to me still along with 121

I think all the defeated language around 229 is fake

589 is totally inconsistent with the push on Tayl0r which obviously lost steam.

593 feels like a sheep of Isis and to be honest I don't see it

Including 600 BM just has way too many scum reads and not enough town reads. What really sticks out is how it feels like the Tayl0r push just got totally dropped and Tayl0r did nothing to deserve it being dropped if it was a genuine read.

VOTE: Battle Mage

Taylor 'push' was not dropped as such. She is still my top scumread and has been throughout. I just stopped labouring the point cause I was getting loads of shit about it so I've been taking more of a backseat.

I don't think having too many scumreads and not many townreads is scummy - objectively I'd normally consider that a towntell as it doesn't benefit BM-scum to attack everyone and piss everyone off.

post 593 is me saying Exorcists is my top townread. You say it's a sheep of Isis? I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. Isis is one of my prime scumreads so doesn't make sense I'd be sheeping her reads even if I was scum. In reality I just Iso'd Exorcists and decided they seemed like the towniest slot. If you want to debate that point, we can?

post 589 is a random read on egotisi. I don't know what you think that has to do with Taylor - you'll have to explain that one.

This doesn't feel to me like a good-faith case, and certainly not a credible one. It's also written in such a way as to conceal it's weaknesses, which is telling in itself.

[Battle Mage]

Isis come talk to me about this? Are we seeing the same things?

you make a case on me, and care more about engaging Isis on it than me? interesting...

[Battle Mage]

Much of my thinking was that his read progressions don't make sense and the way he is mentioning reads doesn't fit well into pushing a player he wants to flip and trying to get other people to vote that person too, or being suspicious of someone and asking questions of that person to figure them out. It's a lot of tossing and changing places for no reason.

Generally when he articulates reasons they make sense, but it doesn't make sense that he is where his.

Like even if you spot him good faith on whatever excuse he is going to say about Datisi, why would he say, "I would be happy flipping egotisi today" while voting me and not seeming to scumread me any less than that scumleany reason he came up with? Shouldn't you be unhappy if you don't get your first choice?

Positioning is what I had in mind.
I kind of agree that Exorcists is bleeding obvtown though, whether that is scummy would just be paranoia over whether the weird timing of it was "I just reread some isos and Exorcists' obvtown iso is screamy" or "my partners pointed out/I realized I'm not townreading many people and Exorcists probably isn't getting voted out anyways" but I don't know how you'd pick one of those over the other.
Swift and Battle mage probably aren't both scum, and Swift doesn't look great either though?

i'll respond to this later i think

[Battle Mage]

who the fk is narwhal?

[Battle Mage]

This game feels like it is going nowhere fast. We have 3 days left. Need to see more from xof and Dunn.

Scum is probably just coasting because town is being lazy. I posted a case on BM. Can people please either engage with it or make a new case?

you're actually standing by that case on me!?

Don't worry buddy, I'll answer your little challenge.

[Battle Mage]

Noraa look at BM for me, what do you see?

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

lol this is hopeless^. It reads like you are begging people to buy into your half-baked arguments. You asked Noraa for a read, she gave you one, and you didn't like it and asked for her another.

[Battle Mage]

Murdercat, apparently you missed it - here's my appraisal of your BM-case:

Ok I'm going to case Battle Mage.

90 misinterps Tayl0r as I pointed out at the time. I think this comes from a fast read of the post looking for something to poke at more often than it comes from town who I think would genuinely read it.

110 feels realllllly weak to me still along with 121

I think all the defeated language around 229 is fake

589 is totally inconsistent with the push on Tayl0r which obviously lost steam.

593 feels like a sheep of Isis and to be honest I don't see it

Including 600 BM just has way too many scum reads and not enough town reads. What really sticks out is how it feels like the Tayl0r push just got totally dropped and Tayl0r did nothing to deserve it being dropped if it was a genuine read.

VOTE: Battle Mage

Taylor 'push' was not dropped as such. She is still my top scumread and has been throughout. I just stopped labouring the point cause I was getting loads of shit about it so I've been taking more of a backseat.

I don't think having too many scumreads and not many townreads is scummy - objectively I'd normally consider that a towntell as it doesn't benefit BM-scum to attack everyone and piss everyone off.

post 593 is me saying Exorcists is my top townread. You say it's a sheep of Isis? I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. Isis is one of my prime scumreads so doesn't make sense I'd be sheeping her reads even if I was scum. In reality I just Iso'd Exorcists and decided they seemed like the towniest slot. If you want to debate that point, we can?

post 589 is a random read on egotisi. I don't know what you think that has to do with Taylor - you'll have to explain that one.

This doesn't feel to me like a good-faith case, and certainly not a credible one. It's also written in such a way as to conceal it's weaknesses, which is telling in itself.

[Battle Mage]

I did a quick ISO of Murdercat, following my dismantling of his case on me - see spoiler. Incredibly, these are almost consecutive posts, all trying to pressure and cajole people into voting for me. What is missing is:

A. A proper rebuttal to my dismantling of his case.
B. Any real attempt to take my subsequent comments into account in evaluating my slot.

In short, I think if Murdercat is town, this is a pretty lazy effort. Doing 1 ISO, and then just tunnelling that slot even against a coherent well-evidenced defence isn't benchmark town-play. Rather than have a proper discussion with me and discuss the merits and demerits, his preference is to dismiss my response and continue to appeal to the majority. It's possible he could play that way as town, but it feels pretty disingenuous and opportunistic - he tried to pick me off when I was barely following/posting, so could have seen me as an easy target to pressure, if not successfully mis-elim.

I just struggle with the idea that Murdercat-town actually buys into his own case because it's so objectively weak. So I'm leaning scum who got his hand caught in the cookie jar, and mistakenly tried to double-down.

Spoiler:

Xof, what do you make of BM?

Also, something not clear in the BM iso is that me and others (xof I think) tried to get more info out of BM about the taylor read and he didn't engage, which I feel like he definitely would have if it was a real death tunnel

Is there anyone who is reading town on BM right now? If so, please explain

hmmmmm
how probable is it that they dipped as soon as the spotlight turned away from them?

This is what I noticed, even the recent posts have not really had a lot of content

Noraa look at BM for me, what do you see?

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

This game feels like it is going nowhere fast. We have 3 days left. Need to see more from xof and Dunn.

Scum is probably just coasting because town is being lazy. I posted a case on BM. Can people please either engage with it or make a new case?

Gamma please come help me out here

[Battle Mage]

ive read through p34. did anyone else notice that BM's reads seem to all agree with isis but BM scumreads isis?

I didn't, but Murdercat said the same thing so I'm sure it's correct! Not sure what significance it holds though? Gimme some motive to work with!

[Battle Mage]

I posted a case on BM. Can people please either engage with it or make a new case?

Uh yeah, one thing that really struck out was

593 feels like a sheep of Isis and to be honest I don't see it

I like BM's recent posts

What made you change your mind here?

Also, having too many scum reads isn't a case for being scum. Having too many null reads is the shitty fence-sitting position.

-ego

Good posting. Do you think it's likely that Murdercat ISO'd me, and decided he'd quite like to have someone to target to look like he was scumhunting and just tried to construe everything I did as being scummy, when in fact it wasn't?

[Battle Mage]

About 589, I am referring to "i would flip egotisi today." which feels very strange considering you pushed so hard on Tayl0r

I mean, I'd just come back to the game after not reading/posting for a bit. And if you've seen me play before you'll know I'm a pragmatist who is ultimately willing to forgo my favoured-elim at the drop of a hat in the interest of reaching a consensus. "would flip" does not imply that would be my preference, more that I'd be fine with it as a compromise.

[Battle Mage]

I think it's telling that BM is suddenly active now that there is actually some pressure on his slot.

lol dude gimme a break, I took some time out of the game because I was becoming emotionally affected by some of the comments. Using that as an argument I'm scum to bolster your broken case is poor form. And no offence, but I think your case is having the opposite effect than you intended.

[Battle Mage]

A. A proper rebuttal to my dismantling of his case.

I'm fine with people thinking my case is weak, but if people really agree with this I don't know what to tell you.

I read every single one of your posts - you didn't give a proper rebuttal. Either admit I'm right, or show me where you did?

In short, I think if Murdercat is town, this is a pretty lazy effort. Doing 1 ISO, and then just tunnelling that slot

This just isn't a representation of what is happening at the moment. I read multiple isos as you can see in my iso and by the fact I waited 45 minutes to post about you after saying I was deciding where to push.

If you think it's possible I play this way as town, why don't you go check?

...I'm not going to read anything into the timing between your posts. I'll rephrase on the ISO point though - I think you saw my ISO and thought I'd be an easy target to pick on, and when you found the case didn't stack up, you went with it anyway. See, the reality is that your case is very weak for this stage of a game and the fact you haven't even tried to defend it when I made that point, suggests to me that you know that to be true. My question is - would Murdercat be more likely to pursue a town-player with a knowingly bad case as town or scum?

[Battle Mage]

Also, something not clear in the BM iso is that me and others (xof I think) tried to get more info out of BM about the taylor read and he didn't engage, which I feel like he definitely would have if it was a real death tunnel

that's fair, I was pretty demotivated. I may go back and have a look!

[Battle Mage]

I made a case on plus and you haven't engaged with it much. I already told you what I think of BM. BM will not be the lim today since literally only 2 people think he's scum. Wait no sorry 3. But like Taylor's whole case is OMGUSy asf and Taylor's not being her town self this game anyways.

my case on you is based on meta. my vote is on you. idrc about the BM wagon, i think we can do better. im not leading that wagon anyway. weird shade on that wagon considering im not even voting it. what do you think of murdercat's case noraa?

I don't normally respond to other people's questions, but I'm interested in why you're asking Noraa about Murdercat's case, after she's already been asked that same question twice and answered promptly? Are you hoping for a different answer?

[Battle Mage]

I saw it BM, it mostly boils down to "No I didn't drop taylor" (despite you not voting there)

"I don't think the thing you think is scummy is scummy"

593 happened independently, which I can't confirm or deny

That's not the post of somebody who actually read my response with his solving hat on.

Given other people have also been fairly uninterested in your case, and highlighted it's logical weaknesses, what does that make you think of them? Are you still keen to tunnel me, or do you have observations on the wider pool?

[Battle Mage]

Much of my thinking was that his read progressions don't make sense and the way he is mentioning reads doesn't fit well into pushing a player he wants to flip and trying to get other people to vote that person too, or being suspicious of someone and asking questions of that person to figure them out. It's a lot of tossing and changing places for no reason.

Generally when he articulates reasons they make sense, but it doesn't make sense that he is where his.

Like even if you spot him good faith on whatever excuse he is going to say about Datisi, why would he say, "I would be happy flipping egotisi today" while voting me and not seeming to scumread me any less than that scumleany reason he came up with? Shouldn't you be unhappy if you don't get your first choice?

Positioning is what I had in mind.
I kind of agree that Exorcists is bleeding obvtown though, whether that is scummy would just be paranoia over whether the weird timing of it was "I just reread some isos and Exorcists' obvtown iso is screamy" or "my partners pointed out/I realized I'm not townreading many people and Exorcists probably isn't getting voted out anyways" but I don't know how you'd pick one of those over the other.
Swift and Battle mage probably aren't both scum, and Swift doesn't look great either though?

On the dichotomy between pushing 1 slot hard, and having other reads, I'd say a couple things. One, there is a timing difference here - read progressions may vary a bit when a lot of time has passed and more stuff has happened. Two, having a preferred elim and multiple scumreads are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise, I can buy your argument - this hasn't exactly been exemplary townplay from me, at least in part because I haven't been here. I'm not sure we've played together before, but worth noting I'm pretty flexible by nature. Clearly I was unhappy at not getting my first choice - if you hadn't clocked that from my early posting, I don't know what to tell ya (shout out Murdercat). But I understand mafia is sometimes a game of compromise.

I'm offended that you think I would take advice from scumbuddies on how to do the very basics of playing the game. Do you really think it's equally likely that I arbitrarily felt I needed 1 townread to make myself look townie, versus I just read some ISOs and found 1 player who i felt was legitimately townie. It feels like, in good faith, the latter is more likely than the former.

[Battle Mage]

anyway. lemme skim some iso's.

i originally voted for canadian because posts like 10 and 18 were giving me a distinct gut-scummy vibe of "i am posting things to appear active and/or helpful while not actually doing anything" (which was a mistake i made in a scumgame semi-recently which stuck to me) and i wanted to see if that would continue. it did not. i've already said why i disliked 478. the read on isis is, in a vacuum, *fine*. the rest of it is like, meh. i wanna see what he brings out once he returns.

xof i still think could be the easy and correct answer for scum, but my other head is telling me they're low-hanging-fruit. i think i'm interested in their read on gamma though, seems like there's meta there.

i've already spoken a bit about jewels in 146/316 and like... norwee is giving me the same vibes he did when i was playing scum against him. like, the closest he has to a read is 394, which like. it's bad. granted, i don't know how to read gamma, but nothing he's done or posted so far is like, jumping out at me or saying ~town~, so.

my current hot take: VOTE: jewel barons

-tisi

this is really lazy but
this guy has a way talking and thinking that makes me feel safe and that he's town naturally.
I'm setting up a townblock with me, exorcist, egotisi and isis. I trust their judgment.

I really like that townblock. Suggest you swap me and Isis, and I can actually roll with that.

[Battle Mage]

I feel like we are at different places because I am struggling to find townies. Who are your top 3?

I believe you accused me of being scum for not having enough townreads. This is not a good look!

I'm going to largely sheep Plus's townblock: Exorcists, Plus, Egotisi (entirely based on his most recent post where he defended me when it made no sense for him to do so as scum).

At the very least, I can buy genuine solving from all 3.

[Battle Mage]

BM's tunnel on taylor is either him being a dick or trolling.

Oi. I'll sheep your reads, but on a personal level - don't be a jerk to me, thanks.

[Battle Mage]

Votecount 1.05

Noraa (4):

Exorcists, plusJOYED, Tayl0r Swift, Cobra Kai

PlusJOYED (2):

Jewel Barons, Noraa

Tayl0r Swift (2):

Isis, Battle Mage

Battle Mage (1):

MURDERCAT

Isis (1):

Random Canadian

Jewel Barons (1):

egotisi

Not Voting (2):

xofelf, Dunnstral

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.
Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-10-23 13:00:00)

I'm not excited by a Noraa or Plus flip, so I'm sticking Taylor as the next biggest wagon. All aboard!

[Battle Mage]

I hadn't realised the chronology before, but Murdercat's case on me came immediately after Isis told him that she thought I was the scummiest player. So it does feel more opportunistic and seizing on a potential change in momentum. Slightly more scumpoints for Murdercat, and lower likelihood of Murdercat-Isis scumteam. There is a question of why Murdercat-scum is so antsy here. Is he scum with Noraa and trying to protect her? or perhaps just impatient to get a mis-elim?

My mind might change as I finish this catchup but I think the scummiest active player left to me is Battle Mage

That one comment BM made about how I assuming one of him/tayl0r was scum is still pinging me and I can't shake it

I think people asked me for reads. Right now I'm looking at something like {xofelf, Narwhal, BM} for SRs. Not my only possible solves, but these are people I'm looking at.

There's posts from all of them that ping scummy to me, but there's some poe as well.

UNVOTE:

still thinking about where to push and how.

Ok I'm going to case Battle Mage.

90 misinterps Tayl0r as I pointed out at the time. I think this comes from a fast read of the post looking for something to poke at more often than it comes from town who I think would genuinely read it.

110 feels realllllly weak to me still along with 121

I think all the defeated language around 229 is fake

589 is totally inconsistent with the push on Tayl0r which obviously lost steam.

593 feels like a sheep of Isis and to be honest I don't see it

Including 600 BM just has way too many scum reads and not enough town reads. What really sticks out is how it feels like the Tayl0r push just got totally dropped and Tayl0r did nothing to deserve it being dropped if it was a genuine read.

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Battle Mage]

If Murder is town, he's a blessing cuz his reads r pretty good. if he's not ... :/ that's bad

guess he must be scum here then, as no good read

[Battle Mage]

I think it's telling that BM is suddenly active now that there is actually some pressure on his slot.

I dont really think there's much pressure on him honestly speaking. I have the largest wagon rn for the shittiest reasons ever but nonetheless still the biggest wagon.

I agree, I think there's more pressure on murdercat than me. I'm not sold on your wagon either - you should join me on Taylor! I may even case her shortly.

I made a case on plus and you haven't engaged with it much. I already told you what I think of BM. BM will not be the lim today since literally only 2 people think he's scum. Wait no sorry 3. But like Taylor's whole case is OMGUSy asf and Taylor's not being her town self this game anyways.

my case on you is based on meta. my vote is on you. idrc about the BM wagon, i think we can do better. im not leading that wagon anyway. weird shade on that wagon considering im not even voting it. what do you think of murdercat's case noraa?

I don't normally respond to other people's questions, but I'm interested in why you're asking Noraa about Murdercat's case, after she's already been asked that same question twice and answered promptly? Are you hoping for a different answer?

someone that actually pays any attention in this game seems kinda rare ngl

it certainly isnt me!

[Battle Mage]

has anyone noticed Taylor was a lot more excited when the game started and she first got her role, than now? It's funny looking back at how enthusiastically and openly she was fishing for town PRs. The novelty seems to have worn off a little bit. scum PR?

[Battle Mage]

based on posting so far i have already deduced who all the town PRs are and who we should kill tonight.

oops, wrong thread.

not a fan of these "admit I'm scum" gambits. Scum more often than random in my experience.

[Battle Mage]

lol dude gimme a break, I took some time out of the game because I was becoming emotionally affected by some of the comments. Using that as an argument I'm scum to bolster your broken case is poor form. And no offence, but I think your case is having the opposite effect than you intended.

At least people are talking. And if you genuinely did step away I'm sorry, but you have posted a fair amount since you said that.

true, i think your case may have given me a new lease on life! and yeah im probably back in the mix now - all my other games are in night too which helps lol.

[Battle Mage]

Town pings on Tayl0r because she feels at ease in her early posting.

so maf have rolecop, roleblocker and non consecutive strongman. thats 5 so we must have 8
I don't wanna speculate on prs this early but I have a suspicion of 1 existing due to the mafia picking a strongman
ahh people beat me to it
ill toss this here for now
VOTE: murdercat

I dislike this because stating PlusJOYED doesn't want to speculate on prs directly contradicts the following statement of suspecting one exists due to there being a strongman. It doesn't take a genius to work that one out, so the former seems written more for appearances.

VOTE: PlusJOYED

-Lance

actually im very nervous but fortunately no one seems to have noticed my scumslip. i feel like i covered it up pretty well.

ugh, I recall people defended this, but even reading it again it doesn't sit well with me. Awkward 'joke'. This stuff can be a crutch for scum to say "it took you that long to flip me?? I claimed scum on Page 1" to save face. Not saying that's necessarily what Taylor is intending here, but that's always my first thought. I'll never understand why any town player jokes about being scum.

[Battle Mage]

snip

892 is my response and it has just as much substance as your original response. There's no point in arguing with you about it because you'll continue to poke at it and claim it's weak. I care about what other players think about it, not you. And I know you are a strong player so I don't see why you think I'd go to you instead of anyone else I could have, e.g. narwhal or plus.

I appreciate the compliment about my strength, but I was also a mostly-absent player. I think it's perfectly reasonable that you'd take the opportunity to railroad me, especially if any of my reads were right. I'm not keen on your dismissive attitude towards my response to you, nor your admitting that you don't want to engage with me directly and instead want to try and browbeat other players into running me up. I don't believe you care what other players genuinely think, because when other players have told you it isn't a good case, you've either ignored them or told them they are wrong. In short, you don't care whether you are right or wrong, you just want to elim me for no reason.

[Battle Mage]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

that's a revelation! Please tell me how you know murdercat is town? and if so, can you please talk some sense into him?

[Battle Mage]

so the mafia has a strongman, rolecop, and roleblocker. since scum already knows what town has, is it worth it for town to speculate about what roles town has? it cant hurt right?

open-wolfing early, classic Taylor-scum. See Noir Mafia.

[Battle Mage]

I'll never understand why any town player jokes about being scum.

Town could joke about being scum in order to get reactions, basically. If you're scumreading her for that, she can then see if your read looks real or fabricated.

That's possible but I think it's problematic for the reason I set out in the original quote. You can basically defend any scummy play by saying "maybe they did it to get reactions". The stats speak for themselves really.

Also, wrt Murder's case: This may just be a playstyle clash. I play similarly to murder in that I hate arguing back and forth with my scumreads, it's usually unproductive and players may just not read it or dismiss it as TvT. Engaging my townreads tends to be a more effective strategy since they are the players I am trying to convince to get an elim.

I think it can be scummy to fail to engage with your scumreads in that way. Scum often shy away from confrontation, especially because things can escalate and be seen as TvS, at which point the best you can get is a 1v1. Murdercat isn't on the chopping block today, but if he is open and honest about the robustness of his case on me and the credibility of his push, that could change quickly. I can buy into simple laziness as NAI, but generally, willingness to debate is a towntell for me. I don't think it would be quite right to say Murdercat engaged with his townreads here - he seemed fairly indiscriminate as if he was prepared to elim me without reason, and without much regard for the reactions of others. He also suggested he was struggling to find any townreads.

[Battle Mage]

I appreciate the compliment about my strength, but I was also a mostly-absent player. I think it's perfectly reasonable that you'd take the opportunity to railroad me, especially if any of my reads were right. I'm not keen on your dismissive attitude towards my response to you, nor your admitting that you don't want to engage with me directly and instead want to try and browbeat other players into running me up. I don't believe you care what other players genuinely think, because when other players have told you it isn't a good case, you've either ignored them or told them they are wrong. In short, you don't care whether you are right or wrong, you just want to elim me for no reason.

The thing is, regardless of your alignment, you will never accept the case.

So I don't gain a lot from talking to you

. I gain a lot more from other people actually engaging with the game, which is what I am trying to make happen. I do care what other players think, but if they just right if off as "meh" that's not helpful and also not actually advancing the game. I am much more interested in what you have to say about Tayl0r than what you have to say about my case against you (though of course others would be interested).

Let me level with you mate...

Murdercat-town gains plenty from talking to me, is seeing what I say and how I engage, and being able to evaluate my reactions and potentially even re-evaluate his own case. You're right it would be unusual for me to say you have an amazing case on me (although I would, and indeed have, acknowledge points of merit). But I think you've slightly missed the point here - Murdercat-town should care more about getting a correct elim today, and be open to the possibility of being wrong. I'm certain that if you're town, you have reasonable doubt about my alignment. Instead, your description of your objective sounds a lot more like eliminating me at all costs. You say you care about my opinion on Taylor - do you have particular questions on it?

[Battle Mage]

Hi everyone! I've been following this game and all I know is that murdercat is town.

Going to reread a bit and give my reads soon, since I might have a lot of null reads I'll give possible town and scum narratives for those players so people can tell where my head is at, at least.

that's a revelation! Please tell me how you know murdercat is town? and if so, can you please talk some sense into him?

As I said, I play similarly to him and I can almost see inside his head with how he's trying to solve this game. As one example, the antsiness of being 3 days before deadline and not having much activity is very relatable. Scum would generally lurk and let the deadline get closer, reducing information and letting a bad compromise elim go through.

maybe - really depends who that compromise elim would be on though? I've seen plenty of impatient scum before - I've been one!

[Battle Mage]

Why Noraa? What did you think of narwhal?

why do you keep calling random canadian narwhal? it's confusing...

[Battle Mage]

I don't think it would be quite right to say Murdercat engaged with his townreads here - he seemed fairly indiscriminate

This much is true. I am not only using reactions to my case to read others I am also generally trying to increase activity

Interested to see the results of this analysis.

[Battle Mage]

be open to the possibility of being wrong.

I am open to it, but I want to hear it from other players. But ok let's talk about Tayl0r because that feels useful

lol that sound to me like "I'll begrudgingly accept you're town if I can't get enough people to buy into my case". Or are you telling me there's a scenario where lots of people agree with your case and you build some momentum, and you then second guess yourself? Because I don't believe that is your mindset at all.

Talk about Taylor - I'm listening!

[Battle Mage]

The thing that gets me about your Tayl0r case BM is that it seems to be mostly focused on things that happened page 1/2ish. It's page 38 and I don't believe you've said much about Tayl0r's votes, tayl0r's lack of info about Noraa meta, Tayl0r's generally lurkiness. Like there are recent things that I see in Tayl0r's iso that look to me to be more like they could be scum than the shitposts early on (including that recent comment about you once I started pushing you) but it feels like you dropped off from pushing those things when Tayl0r wagon lost some steam.

I don't share your view of dismissing those early posts. Yeah I agree it disproportionately focusses on those - ultimately I am so convinced by the meta experience of seeing Taylor as scum in Noir Mafia do exactly the same thing as here, that it's hard to not see her as scum now. In contrast to your approach perhaps, I see the lack of immediate momentum behind that push as a further indicator I might have been right. I think as well as everything else already noted, there was definitely an element of me being frustrated at not getting any traction though. I also think the sentiment expressed that I was not giving objective analysis made me feel like it would be a bit pointless to put lots of effort in, only to be dismissed as being tunnel-visioned. I'm slowly going through her subsequent posts now though.

[Battle Mage]

And sure you can say that you dropped off Tayl0r *because* it lost steam but it just looks weird to me that you stop pushing her at all and fall out of the game

i mean we've talked about the reason for my absence from the game, I don't think we need to revisit...

It's not like I went and started pushing other people though is it? You could simplify it as:

BM thinks Taylor scum early
Everyone tells BM to fk off coz his case is shit
BM gets frustrated/sad and stops trying hard
BM takes a break from game
BM returns, and having read some of what transpired, has other scumreads besides Taylor - however still prefers a Taylor elim.

Dunno, I think I'm not really with you on this. If anything, I think I've been unusually consistent, but you seem to be arguing the opposite.

[Battle Mage]

Isis come talk to me about this? Are we seeing the same things?

you make a case on me, and care more about engaging Isis on it than me? interesting...

Why would you expect someone to opt to engage a scumread over a non-scumread?

-GAMMA

Eh to me that's just common sense. If I'm actually playing properly and trying (which admittedly, isn't always), I want to engage with my scumreads the most to either:

A. Confirm to myself and others that they are scum.
B. Give them the opportunity to convince me that I was wrong and they are town.

[Battle Mage]

Let me level with you mate...

Murdercat-town gains plenty from talking to me, is seeing what I say and how I engage, and being able to evaluate my reactions and potentially even re-evaluate his own case. You're right it would be unusual for me to say you have an amazing case on me (although I would, and indeed have, acknowledge points of merit). But I think you've slightly missed the point here - Murdercat-town should care more about getting a correct elim today, and be open to the possibility of being wrong. I'm certain that if you're town, you have reasonable doubt about my alignment. Instead, your description of your objective sounds a lot more like eliminating me at all costs. You say you care about my opinion on Taylor - do you have particular questions on it?

Speaking of going back and forth without it being useful...

I don't know what to say, I could give you multiple examples, but I think addressing a case point-by-point is mostly NAI no matter how you do it, and I would even go so far as to say continuing an engagement like that with a scumread is bad play as town.

You don't think this discussion is helpful? I disagree. And there's lots to be learnt by how people address a case on them. It's forum mafia - what we say and how we say it is all important data right? I guess we disagree philosophically - I'd be interested to see how you form balanced and robust reads if you don't pay attention to people once you have scumread them.

[Battle Mage]

Gamma - who are your top 2 scumreads?

[Battle Mage]

So, as I progress through the Taylor Iso, I do just want to summarise. Early pages - all posts are either: total fluff, scum-claiming, and trying to out town power roles even after being told why that is anti-town.

so the mafia has a strongman, rolecop, and roleblocker. since scum already knows what town has, is it worth it for town to speculate about what roles town has? it cant hurt right?

actually im very nervous but fortunately no one seems to have noticed my scumslip. i feel like i covered it up pretty well.

Where is your scum-slip?

-Lance

11

i can see the setup spec maybe not helping that much. but i really cant see it hurting, and im a bit suspicious of those who are pushing back against it. this is info SCUM ALREADY HAS. lets level the playing field? for VTs it wont help much, but for PRs theyll know what other PRs are in the game, at the very least.

Oh, so this is going to be a very talkative game from the start, alright. Sure.

Let me see if I can follow along. With how this setup works, if you're good at maths and all, you can kinda mechanically guess what sort of PRs town could have based on how many points were spent for the Undead? I will admit I am unfamiliar with the setup or how any of it works, so already starting a step or so behind there. Is there any sort of benefit to theorizing that, or is it more just a good place to start early game conversations? I can't remember the last time I played an Open so forgive me, my logic is rusty on ideal play.

I have no idea why anyone town would want to do this.

What do you mean?

see murdercat post 65. scum already knows what PRs we have, but doesnt know who has them. if we speculate about what they are, it'll be pretty obvious to them who is and isn't one.

no it wont.

Why are you so sure it won't?

i mean it could if the town PRs fuck up and are dumb. but they just have to feign ignorance and not be like "well im the cop so in all the scenarios i consider, therell be a cop"... like if it outs town PRs then itll out scum too, who are also TMI. itll take 2 seconds to go through and look at the possible options for town with 8 points, and then to look at which ones dont make sense given the scum roles.

[Battle Mage]

I want to see you read into it.

no. there's not a point bc there's too many possibilities tho I will have you down as trying to buddy murder for now.

noraa, you didnt take up my offer of joining the taylor wagon - talk to me about why?

[Battle Mage]

BM gets frustrated/sad and stops trying hard

I would normally consider this AtE but I've felt this recently so I actually vibe with it more.

it's AtE, but I don't think it's scummy really because there's no reason that would make people not vote me lol

[Battle Mage]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

interesting read on xoxelf - why them first?

[Battle Mage]

noraa, you didnt take up my offer of joining the taylor wagon - talk to me about why?

I am not v confident there. I agree Taylor been acting fishy. I could see a scum!Taylor here as her normal town meta is nothing like this but I hate being SRed for shitty meta reasons that are really weak and like "this is not her town game" so I'm not gonna be one of those people.

ok - you're more confident on Plus?

[Battle Mage]

I dont have any reasons for Taylor to be scum besides this isnt her normal town game and I'm not willing to use such a trash reason as some people here are using on me.

I don't think that's a trash reason. Meta quality can be variable. In this game, I feel my meta on Taylor is very strongly in the scumzone.

[Battle Mage]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

interesting read on xoxelf - why them first?

I thought it would be easier since they don't have a ton of posts.

egotisi, dunnstral and 'narwhal' all have fewer posts

[Battle Mage]

You don't think this discussion is helpful? I disagree. And there's lots to be learnt by how people address a case on them. It's forum mafia - what we say and how we say it is all important data right? I guess we disagree philosophically - I'd be interested to see how you form balanced and robust reads if you don't pay attention to people once you have scumread them.

Generally, I feel like players are easier to read when they are not responding to accusations, because then town can feel more free to scumhunt. Certainly depends on the player though. Normally, I try to ask other players, especially townreads, when I am not sure on a read, because getting a second opinion can help distinguish paranoia from useful skepticism. This is why I found it towny that murder asked Isis and noraa about his case on you, because it's probably what I would do in the same position.

You still think it's townie, even after he acknowledged that he didn't ask his townreads only, he asked basically everyone? Or to be more accurate, he tried to persuade them of it's merits. I don't think he was in any sense trying to get a second opinion in the way you describe.

Less relevant, but as a general scumhunting principle, I think you're missing a trick by not taking advantage of the information from people when they are under pressure. If anything, I feel it can be more informative than when they are not.

[Battle Mage]

@mod, can you fix those spoilers?

interesting read on xoxelf - why them first?

I thought it would be easier since they don't have a ton of posts.

egotisi, dunnstral and 'narwhal' all have fewer posts

Those are harder to articulate an opinion on (also I'm narwhal's slot)

ah great, so i dont need to remember the nickname anymore! I look forward to reading them all though.

[Battle Mage]

next bit of Taylor's ISO is mainly ragging on me. We can move on...

Spoiler:

taylor just despises BM's playstyle.

What about it?

i dont like BM's logic
i dont like BM's posting style
i dont like BM's strategies
i feel like i dont like BM as a person.
BM always tunnels me (and i have started returning the favor).
its just always a shitfest with BM in the game.
BM has gotten town!me killed with poor nightplay as PR.

so first of all taylor isnt inactive here. taylor just despises BM's playstyle. taylor does joke around as either alignment. and taylor does become more active and better at reading as the game progresses (as both alignments). and taylor stands by doing setup spec.

i mean... BM immediately jumped down my throat, even putting an RVS vote on me and then pushing me as scum and telling people to ignore me. its not shocking. i can play on given that. but i do have to defend myself, and i was asked a direct question about my feelings about BM. if thats an issue i dont mind being replaced. but its not such an issue for me that i cant be civil.

OMGUS - BM suspects me so he must be scum:

BM should know me well enough at this point to know for a fact that shitposting is NAI for me. yet BM is trying to spin it as me being scum.

Defending herself from previous suspicion:

lets just say that no one has caught me as scum with that "tell" because it isnt a tell. i just like to have a bit of fun and live on the edge.

"honestly" scumtell - an old favourite of mine. Also interesting that Taylor claims her scumgame with me was her only scumgame, giving slightly more confidence to my meta.

lets just say that no one has caught me as scum with that "tell" because it isnt a tell. i just like to have a bit of fun and live on the edge.

do you think you do it more of the time town or scum?

-mayuri

honestly

couldnt say. only have one scumgame anyway.

being overly friendly with noraa?:

VOTE: random canadian

haha im kidding <3
id never roll scum, at least not in a game with you!

buddying everyone on the RC wagon, and also being charming to RC. Very friendly.

It does seem like fairest thing to do right?

Actually I think I might be seeing the reasoning on your canadian vote, but I'd like to hear why you voted there

well im used to RC having decent takes and effort. also i like the people on the RC wagon.

Also, so far, lots of partner-equity between Taylor and Infinity, if you include RVS.

I'll continue once I respond to the recent stuff which has caught my eye! Who said this game was inactive?

[Battle Mage]

@BM Here, murder is clearly asking for second opinions, or faking doing so. I don't see an attempt to push a narrative, I see an attempt to start a conversation.

Isis come talk to me about this? Are we seeing the same things?

Xof, what do you make of BM?

Is there anyone who is reading town on BM right now? If so, please explain

Noraa look at BM for me, what do you see?

...I definitely disagree. In particular, look at the occasions where people responded and said I was town, and he either told them they were wrong, or ignored them entirely. Just because these are framed as questions, does not mean he is seeking second opinions. He is merely pushing people to agree with him.

I'm not necessarily saying that means he is scum, but whether scum or town, it's plainly obvious that he is not looking to be dissuaded from his argument here.

[Battle Mage]

but I want stuff that scum couldn't fake.

scum!me can fake anything imo :3
haven't gotten over my excitement phase after my first scum win a few days ago. It got an extension since I was really upset about my first two games onsite being two scum games of which I lost both.

A solid TR eh? I dont think I have any to be frank. I am not confident in any people being town rn and tho its worrisome, I'm not sure what to do about it so I'm leaving it like that for now.

I think I'm your solid TR

[Battle Mage]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

Yeah, you're missing at least 1 other. I'll let you dig it out as you're on a roll!

And to be clear I think the Noraa example above was an attempt to continue the engagement

with the purpose of persuading Noraa of BM-scum

. not to be persuaded I am town.

I'm a little baffled overall by your defence of Murdercat here. It feels slightly disproportionate given he has no votes on him, and on the face of it, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You entered the game with a clear predisposition that Murdercat was frustrated town impatient to get an elim agreed before deadline. It seems obvious to me that, regardless of his alignment, he was very keen to make me that elim. You are now arguing that he was actually very open minded and wouldnt have been at all phased by moving to a different target entirely. Which I don't think resonates from his posts, or really stacks up with your initial read on him.

[Battle Mage]

I see some of what you’re saying on BM but I don’t feel it’s as strong a case as I think you do

-GAMMA

Fair enough I'm willing to let it go today if BM comes back with something on taylor

im not a fan of this approach but wont labour the point. I think you should see this lack of support as increasing the likelihood of BM-scum, rather than reducing it. Why do you suppose some of the people defending me are not my partners?

[Battle Mage]

I'm setting up a townblock with me, exorcist, egotisi and isis. I trust their judgment.

I really like that townblock. Suggest you swap me and Isis, and I can actually roll with that.

What changed on your egotisi read?

i did answer that already. it was entirely his defence of me, which made little sense from him as scum (both in terms of timing, and the explanation given).

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

Exorcist + gamma is good enough for me to unvote, obviously its not going anywhere

*shrug*

you gonna join me on Taylor then or what?

[Battle Mage]

The Alice-head is my favourite from the Exorcists

[Battle Mage]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

Yeah, you're missing at least 1 other. I'll let you dig it out as you're on a roll!

And to be clear I think the Noraa example above was an attempt to continue the engagement

with the purpose of persuading Noraa of BM-scum

. not to be persuaded I am town.

I'm a little baffled overall by your defence of Murdercat here. It feels slightly disproportionate given he has no votes on him, and on the face of it, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You entered the game with a clear predisposition that Murdercat was frustrated town impatient to get an elim agreed before deadline. It seems obvious to me that, regardless of his alignment, he was very keen to make me that elim. You are now arguing that he was actually very open minded and wouldnt have been at all phased by moving to a different target entirely. Which I don't think resonates from his posts, or really stacks up with your initial read on him.

I don't think this exchange is getting anywhere. Murder is my most confident read, so I'm interested in convincing others of it (this could be useful for forming a townbloc, among other things). If you're town, my reasoning clearly just isn't getting through.

With respect, you might not believe it's helpful to you, but it is helpful to me, so I'd be grateful if you could respond. Simply - if I challenge you on something, you saying "I don't think we're getting anywhere here" and refusing to respond is not constructive.

To be clear, if you can respond well, I am more likely to townread you. If you respond poorly, I am more likely to scumread you. This is how I play the game - you may do it differently, but please indulge me.

[Battle Mage]

based primarily on how people voted you

I sussed plus first so if anything he is OMGUSing me. I explained my progression a few posts ago but was too lazy to go find it. I'll quote it if u can't find it.

The keyword there is primarily, since plus started scumreading you that has seemed to be the main reasoning. Can you give details on any other reads (my slot, murdercat, exorcists, etc.)?

what if noraa turns round and says "I don't think this is getting us anywhere" and stops talking to you? Will you just accept that and townread her?

[Battle Mage]

Infinity - it's also probably worth adding, if your reasoning isn't resonating with me, it might also be because it isn't clear, and maybe discussing with me will help you get it into a better place.

Lots of value in having a little chat with old BM...

[Battle Mage]

In general, I feel like it would be nice to move away from the Plus vs Noraa choice.

I'm quite high on a Taylor-Infinity scumpair currently, although willing to be persuaded otherwise.

[Battle Mage]

[egotisi, Taylor] is where I'd like to go today. Getting slight cold feet about Noraa, I guess.

The Alice-head is my favourite from the Exorcists

I like you too, Battle Mage.

—Alice

I knew there was somebody who did...

let's do Taylor then. If she flips scum, look at Infinity next. I have a thought on another potential partner, which I shall keep to myself for now.

[Battle Mage]

mhmm i think theres something to be said for hiding your townreads a little at the end of each day and maybe even throwing out some deceptive townreads. but generally, more info is good for town. the more we share reads the more info we have and the less scum can hide by saying "i have townreads but dont wanna talk about them"

I feel slightly icky about anything where we're saying town should lie about their reads - it then becomes a crutch for scum to be inconsistent. I think Taylor plays the game on a different level to me perhaps.

VOTE: RandomCanadian

I am going to very blatantly hop on this wagon because [reasons to be revealed later]

mmmmm, the longer you wait the more impressive the reasoning will have to be.

This is odd - Taylor makes a point of challenging Murdercat when he jumps on the Infinity/RC wagon, which she is a leading proponent of. Never followed up on, so isn't something she cares passionately about, but surprising that she makes a point of calling someone out for voting with her.

why are you already tunneling battle mage? It's page 10
I think that looks like an excuse to tunnel a town
I'd probably vote battle mage if they got gladiated with taylor

battle mage literally

always tunnels me

. its not good play but strictly speaking its NAI.

undermining my case on her - not necessarily AI, but it's interesting that, although I've shared numerous games with Taylor, this is the first time she's actually called me out in this way. It kinda suggests she is worried about the attention. I do also feel that Taylor cares more about winning as scum than town, so that would add up.

[Battle Mage]

I knew there was somebody who did...

I just got called nobody

aww sorry noraa, join my wagon and we are coolio again!

[Battle Mage]

@BM Ok well if you are actually town give me something good to read and you'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, I'll town read you and push tayl0r with you.

@BM This feels like willingness to be dissuaded (though tbf only after you called him out). I may be missing something, but the only place I can see where someone disagreed about the case and murder responded back was here:

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

Say more? Respond to what I posted?

which clearly feels like an attempt to continue the engagement.

Yeah, you're missing at least 1 other. I'll let you dig it out as you're on a roll!

And to be clear I think the Noraa example above was an attempt to continue the engagement

with the purpose of persuading Noraa of BM-scum

. not to be persuaded I am town.

I'm a little baffled overall by your defence of Murdercat here. It feels slightly disproportionate given he has no votes on him, and on the face of it, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You entered the game with a clear predisposition that Murdercat was frustrated town impatient to get an elim agreed before deadline. It seems obvious to me that, regardless of his alignment, he was very keen to make me that elim. You are now arguing that he was actually very open minded and wouldnt have been at all phased by moving to a different target entirely. Which I don't think resonates from his posts, or really stacks up with your initial read on him.

I don't think this exchange is getting anywhere. Murder is my most confident read, so I'm interested in convincing others of it (this could be useful for forming a townbloc, among other things). If you're town, my reasoning clearly just isn't getting through.

With respect, you might not believe it's helpful to you, but it is helpful to me, so I'd be grateful if you could respond. Simply - if I challenge you on something, you saying "I don't think we're getting anywhere here" and refusing to respond is not constructive.

To be clear, if you can respond well, I am more likely to townread you. If you respond poorly, I am more likely to scumread you. This is how I play the game - you may do it differently, but please indulge me.

Sure. I can't find the second example of murder following up re: his case, if you could quote it that'd be helpful.

I don't think murder was keen on just getting an elim. To me, it seemed like he was keen on finding a

good

elim. That specifically is why it reads town to me. Scum with 3 days left may be able to get away with "let's just elim someone" and vote the biggest or second-biggest wagon. Murder didn't do that, and instead tried to engage with people to get a wagon he was more satisfied in. Sure, maybe he hoped people would just agree with him and the wagon on you would go through, however his posts read to me as if he was willing to be convinced otherwise (this is the part I seem to have difficulty explaining).

I can buy the defence of "Murder didn't go with the existing wagons and went to the effort of starting something from scratch, which seems high effort for scum". I'm not sure how strong that is - seems perfectly possible Murder-scum could think he might be able to cruise on suspicion of me for a while, or just didn't want to be on a mis-elim, or was particularly keen to eliminate me while I wasn't able to defend myself. And yes I think we disagree on the fact of whether he appeared willing to be persuaded otherwise or not. In reality, we can see now he HAS been persuaded otherwise, although I think that's in some part due to me engaging with him constructively, which was something you and him both thought would be pointless.

based primarily on how people voted you

I sussed plus first so if anything he is OMGUSing me. I explained my progression a few posts ago but was too lazy to go find it. I'll quote it if u can't find it.

The keyword there is primarily, since plus started scumreading you that has seemed to be the main reasoning. Can you give details on any other reads (my slot, murdercat, exorcists, etc.)?

what if noraa turns round and says "I don't think this is getting us anywhere" and stops talking to you? Will you just accept that and townread her?

She hasn't responded to my initial point though? If we're going back and forth and we aren't getting anywhere, I might change my mind, but how I see it is that I made a request of noraa and she hasn't given me anything.

i'm making a point that your philosophy is that town shouldn't bother debating with people, and should only try and buddy up and work with people they believe they can trust, rather than scumhunting per se. So Noraa could have taken the approach you tried with me, which is saying "nah I don't wanna respond to you, I'd rather talk to people who might townread me/might be easily persuadable".

[Battle Mage]

Infinity I'm playing with you in every game from now on

what do you think the likelihood is that Infinity-scum joined this game and decided to buddy you hard? I feel the odds of that are pretty good

[Battle Mage]

we aren't friends cuz I didn't join Taylor wagon?

nah we're friends, but i still want you to vote with me. big trust, let's do it!

[Battle Mage]

yeah egotisi lockscum

expand

y-e-a-h e-g-o-t-i-s-i l-o-c-k-s-c-u-m

[Battle Mage]

the interaction between taylor and xofelf is problematic. I definitely think either Infinity or Xofelf, but probably not both, must be Taylor-buddies if she's red. A small extract below, although it actually spans a good chunk of the game.

Spoiler:

oh RC. uh i forgot that was a thing.

VOTE: RC

ill come for you later xof.

Why are you so sure it won't?

just ignore her

Fair sentiment, may just. But I'm genuinely curious why she thinks that. The explanation you and Murdercat gave seemed solid enough to me as to why it was a bad idea.

Could just be dumb instead of scum. I don't underestimate people's abilities to just be bad.

I do think I need more time to have any sort of reads on anybody, but I do think I at least like where BM's head is at. Reminds me of a handful of other players that I've had good feelings about in the few games I've played this year.

Also hi Gamma <3

these two posts are unbelievably rude considering we dont know each other at all. and that might be coloring my xofelf read. on the other hand, it seems like a really cheap reason to scumread someone and dismiss them without actually having to do any work to sort them, so this also genuinely pings me as scum.

then theres the readlist from xofelf. from xofelfs self meta, they are a tone/gutreader like me. and they often have strange reads and get scumread like me. consequently, id expect us to be very much on the same page. and i generally trust myself to be pretty accurate with confident townreads, even if my scumhunting leaves something to be desired. so the fact that xofelf hasnt sorted a lot of the people i have, and has sorted as town some of the people im still waiting to sort really pings me hard.

VOTE: xofelf

i still dont like how fast the RC wagon fell apart for no reason other than "ooh a shiny"

that said, i was ready to move on to a more serious wagon myself, but RC has not done anything to deserve that votes move away. in fact, im a bit concerned that RC seems to have dodged the thread for the most part since the wagon formed.

doesn't strike me as rude? but more importantly, it didn't appear to be setting up to scumread you - rather xofelf made an excuse for you to defend you (i.e. anti-town rather than scum). Why do you think xofelf-scum would defend Taylor-town so baselessly, but in such a way which doesn't pocket either?

just ignoring someone is kinda rude. saying someone is probably dumb is ruder.

well done for not answering the bit which actually matters for the game.

xofelf was not defending me.

[Battle Mage]

let's do Taylor then.

I'm game. VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

I'm worried egotisi is scum and there isn't enough support to get them elimmed, especially if I die at some point.

—Alice

if taylor flips red, I think it's either infinity or maybe xofelf tomorrow.

if taylor flips green, all bets are off - happy to re-evaluate then.

[Battle Mage]

especially if I die at some point.

ur pretty universally TRed. U won't get limmed.

thats exactly why they might get elimmed. although also a good bet for a protect.

[Battle Mage]

nah we're friends, but i still want you to vote with me. big trust, let's do it!

mmmm I dont wanna

oh go on, i'll let you pick the elim tomorrow!

[Battle Mage]

Infinity I'm playing with you in every game from now on

what do you think the likelihood is that Infinity-scum joined this game and decided to buddy you hard? I feel the odds of that are pretty good

0% infinity scum, 100% chance of buddying.

(This is a joke, but I don't think infinity is scum)

why do you think he's town? meta? hard to believe he's like this in all games...

[Battle Mage]

a hot take there!

[Battle Mage]

noraa being unwilling to jump to taylor, despite her own life possibly depending on it, reads town to me too. even if noraa was scum with taylor, I think she'd be willing to bus.

[Battle Mage]

oh go on, i'll let you pick the elim tomorrow!

I dont think making deals like this is a smart idea tho <.<

I think you are tempted. You've bought some towncred for being difficult to persuade to jump ship. But now you actually need to follow through otherwise you're probably getting elimmed by default.

[Battle Mage]

why do you think he's town? meta? hard to believe he's like this in all games...

Just seems like a weird entrance for scum

eh true. i think if he is scum, he did genuinely think you were town before he joined.

[Battle Mage]

Infinity: im more interested now in your taylor read, given my theory you could be scum together.

although, on noraa, do you agree with my take that her initially refusing to jump to the taylor counterwagon is town-indicative as scum-noraa should have jumped at the chance to save herself?

[Battle Mage]

noraa being unwilling to jump to taylor, despite her own life possibly depending on it, reads town to me too. even if noraa was scum with taylor, I think she'd be willing to bus.

if town lims me, its their loss bc imo my reads can be shockingly accurate at times. If the solve was seriously Taylor/Noraa/someone else, no I would not bus. I never bus unless absolutely forced to. I am very weak when it comes to shit like that and I despise being alone in a pt. None of what you stated is AI but trying to read into it read somewhat towny definitely.

oh go on, i'll let you pick the elim tomorrow!

I dont think making deals like this is a smart idea tho <.<

I think you are tempted. You've bought some towncred for being difficult to persuade to jump ship.

But now you actually need to follow through otherwise you're probably getting elimmed by default.

Unlike plus, I'm not that afraid of getting limmed. My wagon is big but I think I've been keeping this thread alive and pretty towny too if I do say so myself. I think I've done a decent amount of solving and if town lims me, its their loss in the end :/

yeah ive gone back and had a look at a couple of your old games. It's tricky because this feels quite different to either your scum or towngames. I'm inclined to believe you're town on that basis, as individually you seem townier in this game.

If you are town, please be sensible and actually give us a chance of elimming scum today by voting for the counterwagon.

[Battle Mage]

Infinity: im more interested now in your taylor read, given my theory you could be scum together.

although, on noraa, do you agree with my take that her initially refusing to jump to the taylor counterwagon is town-indicative as scum-noraa should have jumped at the chance to save herself?

Don't think taylor has done much AI this game, but I'll have to ISO her.

I agree that it's somewhat tone-indicative, though I'm wondering if she might be waiting to try to find a better reason/counterwagon she can justify more easily. I think she may be worried about being called out for sheeping.

agree your noraa interpretation is possible.

excited to see your taylor iso.

[Battle Mage]

i also totally missed bm saying they had an idea of what Noraa's role is, thanks for bringing that up @murder
I don't wanna go murder day 1 at least either cause they are high efforting probably the most and trying to drive the game forward, though some of the moves they've made feel very questionable

anyway, bm saying that confused me, because I thought I had a good idea of what bm's role was, but if I had to guess it'd seem like what he thinks Noraa's role is is what I think his role is, which would make me wrong. so I might need to revaluate bm.

But shit, this is all very sensitive stuff and I don't want to out a pr by mistake, so I don't wanna discuss it too much. just know i think i need to re evaluate bm.

this post would be an unnecessary embarrassing blunder as scum. leans town. also good reads i think. i may claim today anyway.

[Battle Mage]

I feel better about Swift, I liked the "YAS LOOK AT ME" post, because I think she came up with it out of a genuine desire to see herself talked about which she liked in Menagerie and I think she didn't seem to like in Noir.

i think that is a preposterous reason to decide Taylor is town.

[Battle Mage]

i believe egotisi is close to being flipped. i guess id better catch up

[Battle Mage]

i'm very disappointed we cant get this Taylor elim over the line. It tells me she MUST be scum, because otherwise scum would be backing a Taylor-mislim to then get an easy BM-mislim tomorrow. It's very unlikely scum wouldnt take that bait, unless Taylor was actually scum herself, and her buddies wanted to save her (which in a game with scum PRs is not surprising).

[Battle Mage]

that might even be a hammer...

if i die tonight, for the love of all that is holy, avenge me and elim Taylor tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

Do you think it's likely that Murdercat ISO'd me, and decided he'd quite like to have someone to target to look like he was scumhunting and just tried to construe everything I did as being scummy, when in fact it wasn't?

I think Murdercat is taking posts out of thread context. His answer to *liking* BMs post and then scumreading him is intriguing. Posts in ISO context read very different, and BM's progression on Taylor feels a lot more natural than he cased. I think his post came from a mindset of scumreading first, and then casing second.

VOTE: Murdercat

-ego

i think you're wrong here. i feel like murdercat was just misguided town.

[Battle Mage]

We were the 5th vote.

—Alice

i'm hurt that you abandoned me

[Battle Mage]

I think based on how quick this wagon emerged out of very little, I think egotisi is slightly more likely to be town. no intent from me, i would actually prefer a noraa elim over egotisi i think.

although clearly TAYLOR IS SCUM.

[Battle Mage]

also can i get a doc protect tonight please? thanks

[Battle Mage]

We were the 5th vote.

—Alice

i'm hurt that you abandoned me

I’m sorry. I feel egotisi and on reflection, Noraa have much more chance of flipping scum than Taylor who is a bit null-scummy.

—Alice

the partner equity between noraa and taylor is big. you should have stuck with me.

[Battle Mage]

i think even though egotisi has been scummy, the way his wagon built so quickly, and his random defence of me, both say town overall. Although i'll be eating my words shortly if i'm wrong.

[Battle Mage]

that might even be a hammer...

if i die tonight, for the love of all that is holy, avenge me and elim Taylor tomorrow.

this is kinda unreasonable AtE considering 1)even if Taylor was scum, ur likely not gonna die just for a shit ton of wifomy reasons and 2)that wasn't the hammer

not unreasonable, i want to flip scum and win.

[Battle Mage]

the partner equity between noraa and taylor is big.

this is basically the first time you called me scum. It happens to be while my wagon reached its peak and there was actually 0 progression. You were town reading me the last time I was mentioned I'm pretty sure. I got sus of other people for their progression but u actually had zero progression. inform me of where the partner equity is.

nah your wagon is definitely not at it's peak at the moment - egotisi is like at -1 and day is virtually over. and i dont know if its the first time i called you scum. it's not the first time i thought it was possible.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: noraa

it seems like a choice between noraa and egotisi now, given time. I'm settling with Noraa because she was adamant about not voting Taylor, and she also revealed a no-bussing mentality. If Noraa was town, she should have ultimately voted Taylor here I think.

[Battle Mage]

if i dont get some medical attention tonight, im gonna freak out

[Battle Mage]

1195 made me so fretful until I realized BM was talking about ingame mechanics >_<

ah sorry, yes that's right I am fit as a fiddle

[Battle Mage]

BM I didn't want to have to be the one to tell you this, but you know there is strongman right?

whats a strongman?

[Battle Mage]

ah fk, i'm dead then lol

[Battle Mage]

damnit...shouldve consulted the wiki first!

[Battle Mage]

BM I didn't want to have to be the one to tell you this, but you know there is strongman right?

whats a strongman?

Forget I said anything, see you tomorrow BM!

DAMNIT lol *punches screen*

at least promise you'll elim Taylor for me?

[Battle Mage]

at least promise you'll elim Taylor for me?

Yeah if you flip town tonight I'll take a look

alright man. I want you guys to get it done. I'm counting on you.

[Battle Mage]

it's a shame noraa is capable of a fake townslip as scum. otherwise that would have been good.

[Battle Mage]

yeah

is it too late to flip Taylor today? I'm very ambitious still

[Battle Mage]

yeah

is it too late to flip Taylor today? I'm very ambitious still

Still don't really get why you want to do this lol

just trust me.

i am so so sure. she is being protected by her buddies. if we can push through a scum-elim today, with their night firepower, we swing the game massively in our favour.

[Battle Mage]

my balls to the wall solve is....

Taylor-Noraa-Xofelf

[Battle Mage]

just from reading ISOs mostly

[Battle Mage]

not true

[Battle Mage]

the time for posturing is over though. last call for the Taylor elim please before my inevitable death tonight! Gimme a dying wish!

[Battle Mage]

there must be some town players somewhere in this game - whoever you are, show some kahunas and sheep me

[Battle Mage]

BM why are you voting me but then pushing a Taylor wagon hard?

because taylor is my preference elim, but realistically i have to elim you as 2nd choice unless i can get a big swing of votes towards her.

[Battle Mage]

Why are you so sure it won't?

i mean it could if the town PRs fuck up and are dumb. but they just have to feign ignorance and not be like "well im the cop so in all the scenarios i consider, therell be a cop"... like if it outs town PRs then itll out scum too, who are also TMI. itll take 2 seconds to go through and look at the possible options for town with 8 points, and then to look at which ones dont make sense given the scum roles.

I really don't think Tayl0r is this bold as scum? I know BM is sure, but like, can you actually imagine typing this out and pressing submit as scum?

that's exactly what she did as scum in her only completed scumgame.

it's a major reason why i am sure she is scum here, because she IS that bold as scum.

[Battle Mage]

having skimmed the last 2 pages, im feeling happier about about elimming Noraa today.

[Battle Mage]

a slightly more tinfoil solve, based on more traditional tells, would be:

Murdercat - Jewel Barons - Taylor/Noraa

[Battle Mage]

I think based on how quick this wagon emerged out of very little, I think egotisi is slightly more likely to be town. no intent from me, i would actually prefer a noraa elim over egotisi i think.

although clearly TAYLOR IS SCUM.

Do you not understand compromise? I don’t remember who mentioned this before, but whoever said you being for a Noraa elim while not really making strides to work with those also favoring it in favor of blindly shouting that Taylor is scum constantly has a point. And if Noraa flips scum I think you have significant partner equity with her at this point for this streak of behavior.

im voting for noraa dude

[Battle Mage]

[Battle Mage]

yeah

[Battle Mage]

thats not a good thing man lol

[Battle Mage]

my balls to the wall solve is....

Taylor-Noraa-Xofelf

Pretty sure you’ve been saying that one for a while, why’d you present it like it was a fresh thought?

show me where i'd said it before, then tell me why it matters that i said it again?

[Battle Mage]

Noraa vs xoxelf?

I'm sticking with Noraa I think. The Noraa wagon has both her partners on it though. hmm...

need big brain BM right now

[Battle Mage]

did nobody claim yet? we have 2 people at L-1!

[Battle Mage]

and seriously, why the hell would taylor be so hard to elim if she was town?

if there's a vig, please resolve this.

[Battle Mage]

did nobody claim yet? we have 2 people at L-1!

no, we have one person at L-1, and nobody has been given intent yet, sooooo

-tisi

you just put xofelf at -1?