Open 796: Haunted Village Game Over

[Noraa]

I saw there were many hydras and that sounds funsies
so I came

[Noraa]

Also the flavor and only 7 pages to catch up sounded bomb so tee hee im here

[Noraa]

T^T Taylor I thought we were bestie westies

Plus I have a feeling u finally rolled a scum role *shivers*

[Noraa]

I'm just kidding, welcome Noraa

u sure that was a joke? o_O

[Noraa]

I'll catch up laters

[Noraa]

HMPH why would u flash wagon me for my beautiful existence

[Noraa]

exorcists pings as town.

random canadian does not.

VOTE: random canadian

-tisi

I dont really have any pings at this point in time.

I don't wanna speculate on prs this early but I yadda yadda yadda ....

you say u dont want to spectate then continue to spectate

As town I

*snip* say no more. self meta is not valuable

Tayl0r I remember you saying that it took you a while to get going as scum in our last game together. Based on that, I read your early memeing as townie as, I feel like you would be a little more hesitant to post something like 11 as scum even though it's an obvious joke. (I certainly feel that way as scum). What do you think of that read?

I do like this point tho. More relaxed normally means more likely to be town. Not a super reliable tell but it seems like something a townie would catch onto rather than scum.

Oh, so this is going to be a very talkative game from the start, alright. Sure.

party hadn't even started since Noraa hadn't arrived yet.

- Norwee

Norwee?!

I don't like Battle Mage's push on Taylor

VOTE: Battle Mage

coming in that late and dropping a vote with one sentence to back it up reads bad.

you're probably the first person i heard say that (other) hydras sound fun
also hi noraa!!

Im a special one
Hi Datisi!!

i can already tell this game is going to be hard work.

ofc ofc cuz the high maintenance Noraa has arrived finally

[Noraa]

ah no, that wasnt a shot at you Noraa. I'm actually happy you're here. maybe you can help us turn this around!

Im happy to be here

you say u dont want to spectate then continue to spectate

Are you calling him scummy?

nope.

[Noraa]

BM, Taylor come here!
*shoves a fat marshmallow into both ur mouths*
be happy

[Noraa]

Now that I've resolved the probs with my expert Noraa-ness, lets solve the game together

[Noraa]

Sort me urself. Aint that hard.

[Noraa]

I sense a great e̢̼͓̝̖̦̊̂̏̽́͛̽͒̔͡v̷̢̧̛̰̪͎̳͖̺̯̽͗̔͋̅͗̐̽̏i̸̩̖̜͕̮̥͙̿̀̈̌̆̽̆ͅl̨͍͕̣̱͇̹͗̓͒̏̋͆͟͜͡in this thread...

Spoiler:

I’m another head in this hydra. I’ve only heard things about this game from my other heads, but I promise I’ll catch up myself and join in soon.

—Alice

there's more than 2 heads?

[Noraa]

Fair enough, what are your reads Noraa?

nonexistent at this moment in time. we'll see. the whole taylorvBM caught my attention quick but I didnt get anything out of it. I have a few leans but nothing really close to a read.

[Noraa]

I only have two leans rn and they are weak asf

[Noraa]

Battle Mage are you the kind of player who exaggerates confidence to make a point, is just always confident, or usually isn't and somehow Taylor is just the scummiest thing ever?
It does seem disproportionate but it reminds me of Noir a lot and it didn't mean you were scum there

BM is always very confident. It's not always a bad thing but tunneling town especially can be disastrous.

[Noraa]

I already gave u ungrateful brats marshmallows. now shuuuuuuuuuuuuush

[Noraa]

nu fighting. it helps no one.

[Noraa]

i do think this is a very different gameplan from taylor compared to her towngames, and very similar to her scumgame.

well I personally dont see it yet and even if she actually was scum, tunneling her is actually prolly gonna do the opposite of what u want it to do.

[Noraa]

I say u both stop tunneling and go on with the game

[Noraa]

i wonder if this is some sort of odd gambit from BM

I dont think so

[Noraa]

I think its his normal play which is coolio and all but rn tunneling isnt gonna help us get a Taylor lim even if she is scum :/

[Noraa]

noraa wanna join my xoxelf wagon

no.

I think its his normal play which is coolio and all but rn tunneling isnt gonna help us get a Taylor lim even if she is scum :/

ehhh disagree
if a tunnel nets a scum elim its a good tunnel

if a tunnel ends up discouraging everyone from limming a scum, its a bad tunnel

[Noraa]

Stop stop stop stop. There isnt a point in picking a fight with BM here rn. BM is just tunneling someone (I assume) he actually believes is scum. That needs to stop bc instead of making me want to vote Taylor, I want to not vote her. but all this attacking on BM isnt gonna get us anywhere either.

[Noraa]

No tunneling allowed for day 1 BM!
if ur town, work with me.

[Noraa]

or, if u think im scum, work with someone u think is town.

[Noraa]

i have gamblers fallacy with noraa being scum rn

is that the thing where I've rolled scum too many times to be scum? bleh that thing is kinda dumb ngl cuz rolling scum isnt something I choose for myself to begin with and each game is a separate thing that has nothing to do with the last so the probability of rolling scum is always 50%

noraa *should* be easy to sort before long.

why is that?

[Noraa]

I want to pull some OMGUSy shit on Isis rn cuz I dont agree with the reasoning behind voting me but I also feel like I tend to act weird in games where ik almost everyone cuz I tend to relax and just do whatever tf I want to and it feels less like a game of mafia and more like an episode of Noraa chats with friends

[Noraa]

Should I use the AtE on Isis rn? :3

[Noraa]

Noraa since you didn't omgus me does that mean we aren't friends?

dont understand how this logic works even if its a joke lel

[Noraa]

I bully random people to make them turn into friends

[Noraa]

and then im very nice .... for the most part :3

[Noraa]

correct

[Noraa]

I will bully u if ur scum tho <.<

[Noraa]

u better not be. otherwise scum hunter Noraa gonna whoop ur ass

[Noraa]

Sure!

[Noraa]

I dont particularly think xof is scum and I dont like how fast u jumped off me. I feel a townie would jump on me bc of suspicions that I am scum and investigate and dig around a bit even if only baiting reactions to see what's up. I dont think townies back off this easily and in such a ~pockety~ way. This is something I find strange and I think Isis will be at a scum lean for now bc of that.

amigas we are but not when scum hunter Noraa wants to find some scums :3
though I low-key suck at scum hunting soooooo if im wrong, u shall get apology huggies postgame.

[Noraa]

I explained why ur a scum lean.

I dont just vote my scum leans. I like taking my time

[Noraa]

the deadline isnt close and there's no rush. I will be taking my time with this game cuz it makes it easier for me to go at a turtle's pace. my reads are more accurate and I tunnel less. it benefits town overall so dont rush me

[Noraa]

?

[Noraa]

that is not how I am. the reads come when they come. I can force them along but then they end up being piles of garbage so I prefer to just wait til they naturally come rather than forcing some reads out. They never take til the end of the day tho.

[Noraa]

Oh hey, I've missed a bit!

I saw there were many hydras and that sounds funsies
so I came

Hey Noraa! Glad to see a friendly face replace in again.

Let me do some reading.

nice to see ya again. rip JKer Noraa from ancient arthropods who thought vanilla townie random was scum

[Noraa]

Isis and Noraa, have you 2 played together before?

no

.
.
d̡͈͙́̍̓̍̅͢͢ͅ a̧͕̻̭̦̯̟͔͎̤͂̾̍̈̐͘ r̸̘͇̹̪̺̺̔̓̿̾͐̅̀̐̆ͅ ḵ̶̼̦͙͇̫̟͔̔͒͊̅̂̚͢͠ n̪̺̪̝̥̣̩̯̲̆̌̓͛̒͋̍͡ ȩ̷̧̱͕͈̫̠̠̹̅͆̃̌͑̿̚͜ ṣ̢̨̧̾̄̌̌̌͢ s̷̡̼̯͉͔̙̊͆̋̽͟͡
.
.

Spoiler:

Does the spoilers make my posts unappealing to read? If so, I'll stop. Anyway, I'm caught up now. I quite like Battle Mage even though a lot of people don't feel the same way. He reads genuine, and I agree Taylor is suspicious for advocating setup spec -- specifically, advocating for others to setup spec while not doing any herself. If it is so easy, why do we have to openly discuss it?

itll take 2 seconds to go through and look at the possible options for town with 8 points, and then to look at which ones dont make sense given the scum roles.

(Thanks to egotisi for the highlighting tip. It's very convenient.) Also, guessing PRs isn't even helpful to town. There is only scum motivation in this for gauging reactions.

Xofelf is kind of scummy. I will also be okay going there. In particular, 113, 115, and 119 have no substance, yet appear to be contributing. Random was a null (not sure why everyone piled on) but I liked his latest posts.

I also have a secret scumread I'm going to hold close to my chest for now.

VOTE: Tayl0r Swift

—Alice

Update: I no longer like hydras. I'm not even gonna solve this slot. their dang opinions change around every two minutes. too difficult. someone else do it.

Immediately paranoid of Noraa.

- Norwee

Im an adorable potato what's there to be paranoid about? *blinks innocently*

I usually tend to believe in keeping my vote on the things that seem scummiest instead of voting in clumps for pressure.

Noraa keeps treating Battle Mage like she knows he's town and seems like she's trying hard to look protown.

He can easily play this way as town or scum (BM)

I don't think it's bad for Noraa to be assuming BM is town

Ok FTR I do not assume BM is town. I'm trying to persuade him with a fat marshmallow to cooperate with me. It makes it easier for town no matter what his alignment is.

is there history between you/isis/noraa? and talk about your tonal read on isis?

Isis and I are basically best friends, we played together in open 795. I can't talk about my game history with Noraa due to site rules.

Murder and I are amigos bc of stuff. that's all ya need to know :3

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

[Noraa]

279 and 280 read town to me. I think I've already mentioned to you I don't need my vote to feel people out, I can do it with my voice. My vote is more a symbol of who seems scummiest.

Seeing how you would respond is part of that.

"I think Isis will be at a scum lean" sounds like justifying a scumread rather than explaining one, speaking of, why aren't you voting me?

those posts are without a doubt within noraas scumrange
agree with taylor, noraa is one of those slots that just gets solved over time.

do I tho? I feel like people just give up on solving me at one point :/

[Noraa]

No everyone here is definitely right. Plus seems much more well composed this game. And I'm sure its not just me that's noticed this. I think this is either bc he is scum and knows the whole setup so he is pretty relaxed or its just that his game is getting better. Plus is normally somewhat like me .... basically a huge tsunami of confusion and LHF vibes. But this game I see huge improvement and while I want to say its most likely bc he is scum, I also think its very possible that its just his game getting better.

[Noraa]

No everyone here is definitely right. Plus seems much more well composed this game. And I'm sure its not just me that's noticed this. I think this is either bc he is scum and knows the whole setup so he is pretty relaxed or its just that his game is getting better. Plus is normally somewhat like me .... basically a huge tsunami of confusion and LHF vibes. But this game I see huge improvement and while I want to say its most likely bc he is scum, I also think its very possible that its just his game getting better.

i like to think this
i've done confusion tsunamis before as scum too. I think it depends on the plist

to back this up, i got my first scumgame finished recently
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84069&p=12227354#p12227354

nothing there helps ur case. its ur normal play there with the tsunami. rn ur play is different. I cannot tell if it means u have mastered the art of mafia or you are relaxed bc uk ur scum buddies got ur back :/

[Noraa]

One last thing, can someone explain who the other RC is? I kind of like the RC abbreviation but it sounds like someone already uses it here lol

Rosso Carne

and radiant cowbells

[Noraa]

*gives Taylor and BM more marshmallows*
shush children.
ur both amazing people ok?

[Noraa]

No fighting!

[Noraa]

Ok now time to criticize people
MY FAVORITE PART

[Noraa]

Where'd that one quote I wanted to criticize go? hmmmm

[Noraa]

Also wallposts tend to lean red for me, it seemed rather edited and thought out defense.

this is bad. I think everyone knows why so I won't go into detail but its really random shade.

[Noraa]

yay
wanna townblock again isis :3

I just realized this is ~pocketing~

those posts are without a doubt within noraas scumrange
agree with taylor, noraa is one of those slots that just gets solved over time.

agreeing with Taylor on me = slight pocketing. Though it's true I have done nothing AI yet.

*sigh*
plusiness is hard to read into.

[Noraa]

*siiiiiiiigh*

[Noraa]

I can never tell who is scum

[Noraa]

haha noraa i think i see what youre doing here. youre gonna have to do better than that

oh? and what am I doing?

*siiiiiiiigh*

I can never tell who is scum

Eww~
Why isn't this slot eliminated yet?
VOTE: Noraa

- Norwee

Norwee is a bully. I'm calling the cyberbullying popo.
If you have a case on me, lemme see it.
If you don't, FUC- no jkjk its fine if ur just baiting reactions.

[Noraa]

not a fan of the isis vote

that's bc isis joined you on the zofelf wagon

[Noraa]

norwee we've played with scum noraa before
can you elab more on your noraa scumread
peddit: nah there are other reasons too. I feel like RC is flailing a bit rn

1)the games ongoing so don't u dare say anything about that
2)plus you have more experience with scum Noraa than norwee. why are you not trying to solve me? All I see is you agreeing with Taylor that I'm hard to solve and then asking Norwee to solve me. Can't you solve me urself? I don't think town!plus hesitates to solve me rn or talks about me this much while never directly solving. I could see town!plus completely avoiding me bc he is not confident he can solve me or actively trying hard to solve me. I cannot see town!plus actively engaging me but backing away from solving and finding millions of excuses when no one even asked. You seem to think you have to talk about me to keep me not suspicious of u but you want to just go with the flow and blend into the rest of town.

I will be putting pressure here.

VOTE: Plus

[Noraa]

Plus you seem to want someone else to take the lead and SR or TR me so that u can follow in their shadows.
This means if anything goes wrong, they die and you can just blame it on them leading u astray.

[Noraa]

I don't think ur being towny here.

[Noraa]

norwee we've played with scum noraa before
can you elab more on your noraa scumread
peddit: nah there are other reasons too. I feel like RC is flailing a bit rn

1)the games ongoing so don't u dare say anything about that
2)plus you have more experience with scum Noraa than norwee. why are you not trying to solve me? All I see is you agreeing with Taylor that I'm hard to solve and then asking Norwee to solve me. Can't you solve me urself? I don't think town!plus hesitates to solve me rn or talks about me this much while never directly solving. I could see town!plus completely avoiding me bc he is not confident he can solve me or actively trying hard to solve me. I cannot see town!plus actively engaging me but backing away from solving and finding millions of excuses when no one even asked. You seem to think you have to talk about me to keep me not suspicious of u but you want to just go with the flow and blend into the rest of town.

I will be putting pressure here.

VOTE: Plus

To make this clear, plus has been in a game where I was scum that is currently finished. I told him not to talk about ongoing games cuz that's the specific one he's referring to. Norwee has zero finished games with me whereas plus has one finished game with me where I was scum.

[Noraa]

@egotisi, it’s been a while since you voted, and after expressing suspicion on Murdercat, you didn’t vote him. Is he your strongest scumread? Where are you at the moment?

I also disagree with Noraa’s latest posting. Plus seems fine and I feel like he’s talking without a filter which I like. I don’t see any of the mentioned motivations. Not sure if it’s just disagreement or scummy though.

Update: I no longer like hydras. I'm not even gonna solve this slot. their dang opinions change around every two minutes. too difficult. someone else do it.

I know this is a joke, but it’s a good point. I’ll talk to my other heads more to give less opinion whiplash. Could always sort our logic though.

—Exorcist Alice

U ever played a game with him before? I definitely feel like my read is fairly accurate considering I've played quite a bit with plus(the ongoing I will not mention) Also thank you please do make sure all ur heads say the same thing cuz if all town sees from ur slot is "blah is really sus. nah blah is actually pretty town. Nono blah is sus", we cannot solve you. I was not joking. If ur slot continued to shift opinions all the time, I was going to just ignore ur slot and honestly, tho I hate policy lims, I would suggest it. The other two hydras have less people(only two in both cases) and their opinions are somewhat the same. Urs is the only one that isn't consistent at all.

I saw there were many hydras and that sounds funsies
so I came

Hello, I can be your friend, looks like everyone else doesn't want to : )

*snip* say no more. self meta is not valuable

Is it now?
-GAMMA

I-
Gamma why u gotta bully me
but also don't reply to a post if ur only gonna say "is it now" cuz that could lean either way and is rather confusing when trying to read u. Instead of "is it now" just say "I disagree" or "I agree"

I disagree. I’m actually more skeptical of them because of it- I think “discussions in thread” could very easily turn into scum faking doing things.

I interpreted it as normally hydras all have private threads and mod hadn't given them theirs yet. But ig that is not how it works?

[Noraa]

No one defend or sus plus. I don't wish for him to have anything to work off of yet. I want to hear his reply before anyone defends or susses him.

[Noraa]

I interpreted it as normally hydras all have private threads and mod hadn't given them theirs yet. But ig that is not how it works?

I would guess they explicitly asked for one

idk I never been a hydra before :/

[Noraa]

U ever played a game with him before? I definitely feel like my read is fairly accurate considering I've played quite a bit with plus(the ongoing I will not mention) Also thank you please do make sure all ur heads say the same thing cuz if all town sees from ur slot is "blah is really sus. nah blah is actually pretty town. Nono blah is sus", we cannot solve you. I was not joking. If ur slot continued to shift opinions all the time, I was going to just ignore ur slot and honestly, tho I hate policy lims, I would suggest it. The other two hydras have less people(only two in both cases) and their opinions are somewhat the same. Urs is the only one that isn't consistent at all.

This is my first time in a hydra and I did just say I would try so this was a bit unpleasant. No, I haven't played with Plus.

—Alice

I thought I made it clear I was happy you were going to talk with your other heads but I'm sorry if that came off as offensive.

[Noraa]

It was a bit harsh. Apologies I should've proofread it. I meant to say something more like :

Have u ever played a game with him before? I definitely feel like my read is fairly accurate considering I've played quite a bit with plus(the ongoing I will not mention) Also thank you cuz seeing a lot of "blah is really sus. nah blah is actually pretty town. Nono blah is sus" can be a bit difficult for town. I wasn't really joking earlier bc its a bit hard to solve hydras with many heads but I'm definitely willing to as long as the reads are somewhat consistent. Thanks!

[Noraa]

Sorry!!!

[Noraa]

No one defend or sus plus. I don't wish for him to have anything to work off of yet. I want to hear his reply before anyone defends or susses him.

God dammit. I'm mislimed a lot so I'm trying out a different/ safer style.
You want my normal play? Fine.

1)you clearly saw my longer post addressing you yet you chose to only reply to the smaller less specific one. I want to say this is scummy tho ik town!plus does strange unexplainable things too. I will just say its slightly scummy.
2)dont use AtE on me here....

Elephant in the room: Mod response implies the hydra is town

no mod is not allowed to do that.

I request a neighborhood for me Isis and Noraa

yes please! pedit:hmph

I find it interesting that Plus's readlist has exactly 3 scum and most everyone else is town. I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but I wanted to being that up for discussion. It might be a bit, crafted?

u see I wanted to say that as well but I mean, I dont ever have a reads list so...I not one to judge.

[Noraa]

What I am worried about is that I've mislimmed plus before
and his reaction to SRs tend to ping my scum radar and I'm not sure what to think here. Like ... idk.

[Noraa]

I dont agree ^
I dont think I'm the most towny person here. I dont think gamma's hydra is all that towny either. Neither is the other person(forgot ur name sorry) thats on the wagon

[Noraa]

Murder didn't say he was voting because the wagon I started was townier

[Noraa]

If we aren't the more towny wagon, then he isnt sheeping the wagon of the more towny people

[Noraa]

Your argument is that murder is sheeping towny wagons
except this wagon doesnt have anyone on it thats really towny imo

[Noraa]

do you not TR ego? Honestly his whole iso felt towny. If you insist I can pick some but I'd rather not put in the effort since theres no pressure on ego.

another flaw in your idea is that it's a bad idea to draw more attention to myself with say a readlist if I'm being pressured. If I was scum, I'd lurk and have my partners cause a distraction to derail my wagon.

terrible explanation. If ur gonna call someone town, u explain why. u don't just sheep the consensus read on that player(which I dont even agree ego being town is the consensus anyways)

plus lets start a counterwagon on dunnstral

VOTE: dunnstral

Taylor, keep doing this and I'm gonna start thinking ur scum. You dont do this as town. Town up and solve!

[Noraa]

Isis doesnt have any reasons to sus me is what I've concluded.
The only reason for SRing is currently "bc she said people shouldn't give her free town passes" or basically the same thing. Terrible reasoning though I suspect if Isis was scum, she would pick out some more fake arguments than just this so eh. I shall leave you be for now but ur SRs are not well backed up. Not to mention ur post with all the reads has about two sentences dedicated to me and far more dedicated to other people yet your vote is on me. That's definitely strange.

[Noraa]

This isnt my first game with plus but I still feel like plus is scum.

[Noraa]

Noraa is usually this agressive as scum
in anthropods she was much more passive

uh was I agressive in doggos? also you clearly didn't read my newbie that ended yesterday. I tunneled like hell.

[Noraa]

*aggressive

[Noraa]

I still don't think your push comes from town

um so basically I just refuted ur only reason on your SR on me and ur reply was "idc ur still scum"
.....................
*tumbleweed*

[Noraa]

just to save a bit of time and effort, general announcement that I'm not gonna engage with personal attacks and such. it's just a game, and the focus needs to be on determining alignments, rather than personal stuff.

i'll get back stuck into this one later, just taking a break for now.

*sends bm a virtual huggie*
take a break when u need it. dont let a game make u sad.

Spoiler:

[Noraa]

Plus please elaborate on your SR. Im fine if its meta based but you cant just say eyyy its for meta reasons and then I refute it and u go eh idc ur still scum.

[Noraa]

no

Im kinda done with this. if ur town, ur not trying to cooperate or solve. You cant provide any reasons to support absolutely anything. You couldn't explain a TR that should be pretty easy to explain to murder and you couldn't explain ur SR on me to me. ou won't put in the minimum effort and make/adjust reads as needed. You have a playstyle thats hard to read but that doesnt mean u can do whatever you want. I've seen you put more effort in before but ur not even trying here. I think you are scum and even if ur not, town is gonna mislim u sometime this game for this play because its confusing, hard to read, and overall scummy. Better to mislim day 1 and clear out the setup than to mislim in limlo and lose the game. Plus if ur town, I want a readslist with all of the players who you are confident are a certain alignment with a solid paragraph on why ASAP. You dont have to include everyone. In fact just including like 3 people is fine as long as they are well justified. Do this and I'll think about caving because I know very well you are generally somewhat like this. Show me you are town. I am tired and annoyed of mislimming you. Work with me. Otherwise if this is a mislim, its not on me this time and you cannot guilt me into not voting you out in future games because it was you that didn't want to cooperate. A readslist is by no means hard and one thats only requesting 3+ people in it should be very easy.

[Noraa]

Individually his posts don't look that out of the ordinary but put together, I think he has a plan to look active and comment on the things going on. Within his comments, it looks like he could have scum motivation to put himself in position to scumread many different people later on as he needs. At the moment, he has many weak townreads but none seem that strong that he wouldn't come back on later if he needs to.

Hmm ok thank you. I don't find your argument convincing at the moment but it is useful to get your thoughts

isnt this argument ur exact argument tho?

[Noraa]

why's it more likely to come from town?

[Noraa]

why's it more likely to come from town?

It's just very bold which I think comes from a genuine scum read on you. A genuine scum read on you would have to come from town.

I 100% believe scum!plus would say something like that.

[Noraa]

I like MURDERCAT

If murder is town, its very beneficial to town as I've discovered that murder has pretty good reads.

[Noraa]

Mod you wouldn't be so mean as to make murder scum right?
*looks at brass* if you did, we gonna have a talkie post game.

[Noraa]

I 100% believe scum!plus would say something like that.

Based on what though, he has no completed scum games right?

he does

[Noraa]

he does

Is it a recent one then? Which one? When looking for scum games I usually just skim for mafia PTs in their posts

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84069

[Noraa]

Thinking a town!Plus is gonna get townread anyway. And lo and behold you unvoted plus

Ok I see that actually.

I dont understand what this means but I think its sussing me?

[Noraa]

I dont understand the argument in the above post but I mean I'm not paying much attention to ur SRs cuz as far as I can tell, they are not much different from plus'

[Noraa]

I dont understand what this means but I think its sussing me?

No I just understand Isis's POV on it. Scum you could conceivably be genuinely angry at plus because you think he should be a bigger miselim target and is getting away with not doing anything.

why would doing nothing make him not get limmed? And also Isis clearly hasn't meta dived me if she really believes that.

[Noraa]

That is a terrible way to think. I get frustrated/upset as town far more often AND I only get upset as scum when I'm getting tunneled or under pressure.

[Noraa]

That is a terrible way to think. I get frustrated/upset as town far more often AND I only get upset as scum when I'm getting tunneled or under pressure.

I believe this to be true FWIW

Honestly this is generally how all players are so Isis suggesting that I'm a rare case is strange considering normally people just assume this is how everyone is...

[Noraa]

I haven't meta dived you, I rarely read people's older games to read them nowadays. I have to be extremely curious about something.

nowadays? u make it sound like u've been playing for years and years. wait are u an alt? O_o

[Noraa]

In terms of ranking from town to scum, I'd say something like:

ego > exorcist > isis > jewels > tswift > murdercat > bm > cobra > dunnstral > rc > noraa > xofelf

Considering everyone to the left of me is your townreads, I'm neutral, and everyone to the right of me is your scumread, then from my point of view; you're either scum, townreading scum, or you're exactly right on your three scumreads. Given the basis for your reads, and general probability, it's probably one of the first two.

Weird post. Serves nothing other than pointing out some of Plus's reads are probably incorrect, which is a given for anyone at this stage.

-Lance

I really vibe with this post here. Feels to me like townie picking up on the details. I, personally actually missed this.

[Noraa]

coming back to my wagon falling off was a pleasant suprise.
i do think I wanna pursue X or Noraa today. I personally think X is a bit more scummy, but I've come around to Isis more recently and trust her reads. Isis townreading X puts me in a weird spot but I've been known to be privy to confbias as town. I also think Noraa seems more likely to happen so if nothing else it'll save my behind. I'll swap here.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Noraa

"x is more scummy except I need to pocket isis rn while she's focused on noraa sooooo VOTE: Noraa"
"oh and also I generally do things like this as town"

plus is clearly trying far too hard to seem town here. I dont think plus is town.

[Noraa]

I'm caught up and I want to VOTE: Noraa, it's been lots of bits and pieces too small to quote but the bits where she doesn't believe herself deserving to be townread doesn't make me want to townread her. It outweighs the things I liked.
Dunnstral seems scummy to me, but by now I think I've tallied enough read accuracy from him across games that I want him alive more than other players because a town!Dunnstral is going to solve the game for me.
I'd find Jewel Barons a little scummy for being sideliney if I ignored the PT thing, but I agree with Dunnstral about that being a strong push town and that matters more. And I'm used to not loving Gamma's posting until finally finding something I like on page 80.
If I had to pick another scum I think I'd pick Swift but I want to give her room to play right now.

Very nice. Dunnstral, Noraa, and Tayl0r are all slots I want to look at right now. I've changed my mind on both Plus and Random Canadian. I'll join you on Noraa.
VOTE: Noraa
These posts look fake to me. There's a lot of 'work with me' which I read as disingenuous.

Spoiler:

nu fighting. it helps no one.

i do think this is a very different gameplan from taylor compared to her towngames, and very similar to her scumgame.

well I personally dont see it yet and even if she actually was scum, tunneling her is actually prolly gonna do the opposite of what u want it to do.

I say u both stop tunneling and go on with the game

I think its his normal play which is coolio and all but rn tunneling isnt gonna help us get a Taylor lim even if she is scum :/

Stop stop stop stop. There isnt a point in picking a fight with BM here rn. BM is just tunneling someone (I assume) he actually believes is scum. That needs to stop bc instead of making me want to vote Taylor, I want to not vote her. but all this attacking on BM isnt gonna get us anywhere either.

No tunneling allowed for day 1 BM!
if ur town, work with me.

or, if u think im scum, work with someone u think is town.

I dont particularly think xof is scum and I dont like how fast u jumped off me. I feel a townie would jump on me bc of suspicions that I am scum and investigate and dig around a bit even if only baiting reactions to see what's up. I dont think townies back off this easily and in such a ~pockety~ way. This is something I find strange and I think Isis will be at a scum lean for now bc of that.

amigas we are but not when scum hunter Noraa wants to find some scums :3
though I low-key suck at scum hunting soooooo if im wrong, u shall get apology huggies postgame.

U ever played a game with him before? I definitely feel like my read is fairly accurate considering I've played quite a bit with plus(the ongoing I will not mention) Also thank you please do make sure all ur heads say the same thing cuz if all town sees from ur slot is "blah is really sus. nah blah is actually pretty town. Nono blah is sus", we cannot solve you. I was not joking. If ur slot continued to shift opinions all the time, I was going to just ignore ur slot and honestly, tho I hate policy lims, I would suggest it. The other two hydras have less people(only two in both cases) and their opinions are somewhat the same. Urs is the only one that isn't consistent at all.

no

Im kinda done with this. if ur town, ur not trying to cooperate or solve. You cant provide any reasons to support absolutely anything. You couldn't explain a TR that should be pretty easy to explain to murder and you couldn't explain ur SR on me to me. ou won't put in the minimum effort and make/adjust reads as needed. You have a playstyle thats hard to read but that doesnt mean u can do whatever you want. I've seen you put more effort in before but ur not even trying here. I think you are scum and even if ur not, town is gonna mislim u sometime this game for this play because its confusing, hard to read, and overall scummy. Better to mislim day 1 and clear out the setup than to mislim in limlo and lose the game. Plus if ur town, I want a readslist with all of the players who you are confident are a certain alignment with a solid paragraph on why ASAP. You dont have to include everyone. In fact just including like 3 people is fine as long as they are well justified. Do this and I'll think about caving because I know very well you are generally somewhat like this. Show me you are town. I am tired and annoyed of mislimming you. Work with me. Otherwise if this is a mislim, its not on me this time and you cannot guilt me into not voting you out in future games because it was you that didn't want to cooperate. A readslist is by no means hard and one thats only requesting 3+ people in it should be very easy.

This is tinfoil material, but Noraa was alarmed at how 417 came across as when Alice refuted it, so much so that I think she wouldn't normally make the error if town, and was more focused on faking stances rather than not being mean.

-Lance

ur slot called me rude for it and I reread it and it was rude so I apologized. It was a particularly harsh post bc I was annoyed with ur slot at the time but I hadn't meant for it to come off like that. either way, bad reason to vote me.

[Noraa]

"work with me" is not AI no matter what so bad reason
sheeping Isis' reads is interesting considering she raises completely different points than you. Not to mention her points are just that I like to say people shouldn't give me free town passes is AI somehow?

[Noraa]

she had a point on me to sus me originally and then quickly dropped it after she saw some "towny posts"
then she had a completely different point on me to sus me.

[Noraa]

Progression is really unnatural. All the sheeping is low-key dumb but not sure how to read into that since sheeping isnt always AI.

Isis explain your progression on me.
VOTE: Isis

[Noraa]

I also think Noraa seems more likely to happen so if nothing else it'll save my behind.

Hold up I missed this earlier.
People think this is towny?
Take a good look at this sentence.

[Noraa]

NAH NAH NAH
nope
VOTE: Plus

[Noraa]

Sorry peoples for changing my avatar. be bamboozled for a bit.

[Noraa]

Joyed and datisi hydra

Not sure on scumreads. Was planning to reread at some point. Nothing is standing out as overtly scummy- I don’t particularly understand why joyed or Noraa are the leading wagons presently. Feels TvT.

Battle mage and Taylor

Not sure at this point in time.

This is actually such a bad answer to murder's question.

[Noraa]

You could be scum but I'm more interested in putting pressure on plus and isis rn

[Noraa]

I think plus is scum cuz of his weird behavior and failure to explain a single SR on a single person.
Isis' progression on me has been weird as well. the reasons are all weak and there's only ... 2. not to mention she actually spends more time on other people yet her votes on me.

[Noraa]

He did not explain why he cannot explain the SR

[Noraa]

All he said was "no"

[Noraa]

I am not seeing it. can you explain?

[Noraa]

Im not trying to be stubborn. I just don't see what you are seeing. If its true he has good reason to not explain, I can reconsider but I personally do not see anything.

[Noraa]

sorry, been real busy irl. hot take: plus is town.

expand whenever you have time on this thought pls.

I think there's a decent chance of scum in {Isis-Noraa}.
I still think Taylor is scum.

why is there scum in {isis, noraa}? And if there is scum there, who is it?

there are reasons to suspect Plus, but on balance he is one of the less scummy player, so I guess that makes him more likely town.

this logic doesn't go thru. play style has nothing to do with chance of being town/scum

[Noraa]

I'm ok with them. I'd like explanations tho.

[Noraa]

The problem is that if isis ever flips green this game, I will immediately think you were setting up chain lynches here

[Noraa]

i don't know what you're saying here? i didn't say anything about playstyle?

I didn't read ur post right. disregard that sorry.

[Noraa]

ill come back to you on the other Q Noraa - will consult the ISOs again, as im riffing

kk

[Noraa]

The problem is that if isis ever flips green this game, I will immediately think you were setting up chain lynches here

That's fair enough!

Although having reflected I'm less sure you would be scum if Isis was town, so it wouldn't be automatic.

I think we flip Isis and see how it goes?

Idk Isis has been p quiet lately. I'd like to hear more from that slot.

[Noraa]

Joyed and datisi hydra

Not sure on scumreads. Was planning to reread at some point. Nothing is standing out as overtly scummy- I don’t particularly understand why joyed or Noraa are the leading wagons presently. Feels TvT.

Battle mage and Taylor

Not sure at this point in time.

This is actually such a bad answer to murder's question.

I was intrigued by this actually, but I don't think you developed it?
Digame enemiga

why it's bad? cuz I could write up something like that in less than a minute.

[Noraa]

That slot has been pretty lurky and murder tried to engage them and they spent no time or effort on their reply

[Noraa]

I scumhunt in a very fencesitty way and rarely draw firm conclusions but I think even my poor townplay has done more than them.

[Noraa]

To clarify, I changed my avatar because I requested an avatar in a speakeasy thread. I figured I needed to change it to show the person who chose it for me that he didn't waste his time

[Noraa]

Here lemme do some promotion for Panzer:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83480&start=250

[Noraa]

I’m playing this game how I want to. If you want to eliminate me for it then that’s on you guys and I’m not taking blame for it.

I was asked off the cuff quick fire questions and answered off the cuff and quick fire.

dont AtE me

[Noraa]

UNVOTE:

y

[Noraa]

do you think you are scummier than plus?
I have made my case on plus and you very clear(and why I prefer plus lim for that matter). I don't think there's any reason why you should not know.

[Noraa]

I don't think Noraa's analysis of Kai actually says that much about Kai's alignment, but it looks solvey to me

I kind of don't want to vote everything, which is every game nowadays

my analysis of kai is actually prolly the least solvey thing I've done. You changing around based off of terrible reasons is quite questionable.

Your case on plus is he won’t (and literally can’t) explain his read on you.

is that not a valid reason? He has a "strong SR" yet he can't explain any of it. You can't even explain to murder why a few people are townie. Like his reads are all nothing if he can't back them up and it just feels like scum wanting to seem like he put in effort when he actually isnt.

[Noraa]

Don't use ongoing games as the basis for your read then hint vaguely at it in the game thread while never explaining anything, it NEVER goes well for you

ah he can't explain because its ongoing?
that's bullshit. ongoing = no reason at all.
ongoing also = easy way to make it seem like ur solving when ur fucking not.

[Noraa]

I am his strongest SR yet the only evidence he has is an ongoing game?
No. If I was the strongest SR that deserves the vote(which is on me in case anyone missed that), he will have more reason that just "ohh ongoing game whoopsie can't say why"

[Noraa]

I can understand using ongoing games to judge someone and not being able to elaborate but if ur vote is on someone, u cannot fucking brush it off and be like "nope got no reasons that I can tell u cuz the games ongoing"

[Noraa]

No. fucking no. if your only reason is one singular game in general(tiny tiny sample size), that reason is already absolute garbage.

[Noraa]

not to mention hiding behind a site rule to not elaborate on a read.

[Noraa]

If I am a top SR, u literally cannot not provide a single reason. There is no way a reason based 100% on meta and one singular game can be good. You will provide a reason for SRing me otherwise I will literally death tunnel you

[Noraa]

what would you say is the most solvey thing you've done, Noraa

I've tried to solve multiple slots. I've tried to solve plus and you for the most part. Cobra isnt even someone I'm really trying too much to solve. I just dislike some things about them is all.

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

Don't use ongoing games as the basis for your read then hint vaguely at it in the game thread while never explaining anything, it NEVER goes well for you

ah he can't explain because its ongoing?
that's bullshit. ongoing = no reason at all.
ongoing also = easy way to make it seem like ur solving when ur fucking not.

I am his strongest SR yet the only evidence he has is an ongoing game?
No. If I was the strongest SR that deserves the vote(which is on me in case anyone missed that), he will have more reason that just "ohh ongoing game whoopsie can't say why"

I can understand using ongoing games to judge someone and not being able to elaborate but if ur vote is on someone, u cannot fucking brush it off and be like "nope got no reasons that I can tell u cuz the games ongoing"

No. fucking no. if your only reason is one singular game in general(tiny tiny sample size), that reason is already absolute garbage.

not to mention hiding behind a site rule to not elaborate on a read.

If I am a top SR, u literally cannot not provide a single reason. There is no way a reason based 100% on meta and one singular game can be good. You will provide a reason for SRing me otherwise I will literally death tunnel you

plus you better give me a damn reason otherwise I am pushing you to hell and back for not being able to defend a single read and for throwing shade at me for no literal reason.

[Noraa]

upsetti spaghetti Noraa is currently present in the chat

Spoiler:

[Noraa]

VOTE: noraa

thats where im voting to save myself btw

explain why. Normally being this scummy isnt ur town play. In the newbie we were in together, u weren't this distant. I don't really think ur scum but I'd appreciate if you actually participated and inputted useful info instead of doing whatever ur doing rn.

[Noraa]

yeah egotisi lockscum

expand

[Noraa]

*sigh*
plus and isis have slinked off to ????

[Noraa]

who else has been away?

[Noraa]

the timing is hot considering they were so active before I started sussing

[Noraa]

So random, gamma/Norwee hydra, and the big hydra haven't posted in a while.

[Noraa]

Can we notice that I've posted the most?

spammy tsunami Noraa

[Noraa]

..........put that in ur pt or disc please

[Noraa]

I’m a little concerned the question has to be asked.

Have you not played with or in a hydra before?

I've played with one hydra before and I think thats it. My scum buddy killed that hydra off like day 1 or something tho.

[Noraa]

VOTE: noraa

I don't see ur progression.
No one in this damn game is explaining their fucking votes. its actually pissing me off.

[Noraa]

How am I misrepping .... isos? I have legit done zero isos this game I'm pretty sure. why for everyone else they are called SRs but then for me its called "hyper concern"?
Im trying to solve unlike most the lurkers here. if anything I'm being literally the most protown basically.

[Noraa]

no if I am a big SR, he is required to at least be able to provide one reason besides "sorry its ongoing"

[Noraa]

I have been really reasonable.

[Noraa]

your only point on me is my sussing of plus? lel ur SR is really weak too

[Noraa]

I already stated why plus' SR on me is unreasonable. I don't understand why I cannot discredit something that absolutely deserves zero credit.

[Noraa]

You haven't even denied that my point on plus is wrong. You just continue to push that ur right.

[Noraa]

Who's scum Noraa

are you? I think its Isis, plus, Taylor, and cobra

[Noraa]

I've been basically the only one trying to solve and everyone just jumps on me lmao. its funny that I get jumped on for using my brain and knowing that plus' argument is terrible but anyways whatever.

[Noraa]

lel I did that when I had zero pressure. is that really scum!Noraa meta?

[Noraa]

im spammy every game. y'all got nothing on me there.

[Noraa]

I have two finished town games. I had the highest post count in both

[Noraa]

most recent one:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84399&activity_overview=1

[Noraa]

have you not read any of my posts zofelf?

[Noraa]

Plus cannot provide a single reason for why I'm scum besides a reason that he cannot say bc tHe gAmE iS oNgOiNg however I think if I am the strongest SR of his, there should be more than one reason that is based on one singular game :/

Isis sussed me for a reason then dropped it cuz I was being "towny" then brought it back for a completely different reason. point is that her progression was unnatural and not well justified either. It all seemed like scum trying to seem like solving but not actually solving.

[Noraa]

No harm in guessing. Not like imma tell u if it's right or not anyways.

[Noraa]

lel I did that when I had zero pressure. is that really scum!Noraa meta?

yes

is it tho?

[Noraa]

I could be convinced on isis. but unless plus provides a reason for any of his reads for that matter, I am not untunneling.

[Noraa]

this isnt even over the top for me :/

[Noraa]

murder where u at? come talk about Roses

[Noraa]

cobra have I played a game with you before? or where did you see me argue as town?

[Noraa]

were you in a scum game of mine or a town game? I won't ask username since u made an alt, ur clearly not fine with just telling me. I advise you not use meta on me as all of my games so far have been really really different. My 2 town games are vastly different and my 3 scum games are really different from each other as well.

[Noraa]

my meta is by no mean consistent.

[Noraa]

*means

[Noraa]

I don't think you've grasped what my town tells are then

[Noraa]

I personally have not paid too much attention to what my tells are however I do not think they are consistent because people always read me wrong. if you think you know my town tells, you don't unless you get my alignment right like 5 games in a row.

[Noraa]

My read isn’t a meta read, Nora. You asked if I had and I shared my thoughts on it.

yeah it is. u said I'm more .... idk aggressive/unreasonable than I was in some town game I played with you

[Noraa]

I’m not really sure how people are just hand waving you like they are, frankly, because you’ve had some statements about the game that are easily fact checked that are getting ignored.

?

[Noraa]

and how is it not a factual interpretation?
speaking of which, just because you don't agree doesn't mean its scummy :/

[Noraa]

plus factual isnt the word to use here. Reads are subjective and biased. They are opinions not facts.

[Noraa]

no I'm trying to address ur arguments. I am not, ftr, by any means convinced ur town

[Noraa]

particular reason you only mentioned Isis? That would still probably come off the same way if you flip green first.

I'd be dead then.

[Noraa]

What made you feel so strongly about this?

he has no other reasons. He's going to sus me for a singular game which is already annoying but then on top of that the games ongoing so basically there's no literal argument there.

[Noraa]

there’s a readslist with explanation

really now? lets take a quick look at that reads list with the overly detailed explanations. Hold up while I find it

[Noraa]

haunted house gutreads / early reads

murdercat: weak-town. didnt like the rc vote, it came off as lamisty, but i've liked their other stuff. Like up until iso post 36 i was down on town!murdercat. I still am but slightly less, mainly when they started looking at wagonomics.

isis: town.

Partial bias

here cause menagerie, but

I also think this is genuine town!isis

I saw in menagerie. Her townreading exorcist also helps my confidence here.

exorcists: town.

I think his posts show a town mindset.

Like not a single one of his posts i have a problem with.

ego: town.

I think his posts show a town mindset.

Same reasons as exorcist. No posts I have a problem with.

bm: weak-town. dont like the desperate taylor push this early. Maybe its something he does as town idk. At least I don't think him vs taylor is SvS but I actually get TvT vibes there. Reason why is that their beef seems more based on past games and frustration rather than actual scumhunting but seems too genuine to be SvS this early. So he's less towny than taylor but nulltown because I think him vs Tayl0r is TvT.

side note, I can't believe BM doesn't have an avi and has been here since 2007.

noraa:

sus. Can't elaborate much

, but I think

her push on me comes from a bad place due to meta reasons

. Noraa also likes to push aggressively as scum on town.

rc:

weak-sus

. seems very flaily imo and i get an aura of anxiety from this narwhal and not a fan of the isis vote + entrance, though he could just be nervous town since I've only done 1 newbie game with him blah blah

fencesitty

.

xoxelf:

most sus for reasons i talked about earlier.

I wanna pursue this for now.

dunnstral: neutral. He's thrown out a lot of reasons why someone could be scum and tried to shut down reads from my understanding upon iso look.

Not a fan, but I don't strongly disagree with any of their points either, so I have to place him in neutral

Tswift:

weak town read.

I think the reaction to the bm push comes from frustrated town. Their play reminds me a bit of 2163.

jewels:

weak town.

Iso seems rather towny upon reread and mod response mildly implies they are town (

think it was a mod slip

).

cobra:

very weak town.

Liked his fast readlist, I believe that comes from a townie more likely. But with 8 posts and most of them NAI im still kinda unsure.

[Noraa]

do you really see good reasons?

[Noraa]

Half of it is fencesitty af and most of the rest is just words slapped onto a page that really don't help anyone.

[Noraa]

Murder I want a read too

[Noraa]

If Murder is town, he's a blessing cuz his reads r pretty good. if he's not ... :/ that's bad

[Noraa]

Murder question: am I tunneling plus too much?

[Noraa]

Recently I've tunneled echo hard and tho I don't believe I am incorrectly tunneling here, I'd like to hear ur perspective since u were there when I tunneled echo hard.

[Noraa]

ur=murder's

[Noraa]

Murder question: am I tunneling plus too much?

My major concern with your play towards plus is that it is mostly omgus

No I sussed plus first I think?

[Noraa]

Spoiler:

Sort me urself. Aint that hard.

No everyone here is definitely right. Plus seems much more well composed this game. And I'm sure its not just me that's noticed this. I think this is either bc he is scum and knows the whole setup so he is pretty relaxed or its just that his game is getting better. Plus is normally somewhat like me .... basically a huge tsunami of confusion and LHF vibes. But this game I see huge improvement and while I want to say its most likely bc he is scum, I also think its very possible that its just his game getting better.

Also wallposts tend to lean red for me, it seemed rather edited and thought out defense.

this is bad. I think everyone knows why so I won't go into detail but its really random shade.

not a fan of the isis vote

that's bc isis joined you on the zofelf wagon

norwee we've played with scum noraa before
can you elab more on your noraa scumread
peddit: nah there are other reasons too. I feel like RC is flailing a bit rn

1)the games ongoing so don't u dare say anything about that
2)plus you have more experience with scum Noraa than norwee. why are you not trying to solve me? All I see is you agreeing with Taylor that I'm hard to solve and then asking Norwee to solve me. Can't you solve me urself? I don't think town!plus hesitates to solve me rn or talks about me this much while never directly solving. I could see town!plus completely avoiding me bc he is not confident he can solve me or actively trying hard to solve me. I cannot see town!plus actively engaging me but backing away from solving and finding millions of excuses when no one even asked. You seem to think you have to talk about me to keep me not suspicious of u but you want to just go with the flow and blend into the rest of town.

I will be putting pressure here.

VOTE: Plus

my progression.

[Noraa]

Plus kept asking other people(norwee and Taylor) to sort me which is originally what started getting my scum radar going.

[Noraa]

The thing is ik I'm hard to sort and inconsistent but the fact that he seemed to feel he needed to sort me the moment I replaced in but didnt want to do it himself rubbed me wrong. Like for replacements, literally waiting a few irl days and then sorting them is very normal but plus starts "sorting" me the day I replace in. The way he does it is he is like eyyyy norwee what do u think of Noraa? *norwee ignores* hmmm uhh Taylor what do you think of Noraa?

[Noraa]

like first off, plus has played a full game with scum!me before. In fact neither Taylor nor norwee have played a full game with me(Taylor's I replaced in and Norwees is ongoing)

[Noraa]

like first off, plus has played a full game with scum!me before. In fact neither Taylor nor norwee have played a full game with me(Taylor's I replaced in and Norwees is ongoing)

and then there isnt really a second off

[Noraa]

Could be finding something in nothing, but it just bothers me that you said it the way you did, it seems like you're trying to scare BM off.

I don't understand this but you do you.

[Noraa]

Okay so looking back on things Noraa is right to call PJ's leaning on ongoing meta "hiding behind site rules", because she refuted him pretty soundly and then he resorts to this sort of "lalala I can't hear you" posting

someone finally understands why I'm so annoyed by that?

[Noraa]

I wish 72 was here ;(

[Noraa]

as others have stated i can't go hard in depth cuz site rules. But you love tunneling elimable slots like me as scum and I've never seen you tunnel like this as town. You also come off as lamisty to me

AtE does not work on me plus.

[Noraa]

what would you say is the most solvey thing you've done, Noraa

I've tried to solve multiple slots. I've tried to solve plus and you for the most part. Cobra isnt even someone I'm really trying too much to solve. I just dislike some things about them is all.

lamist here

ur gonna throw me off with a "lamest here"?
no. absolutely not. you have done nothing protown this entire game. you cannot talk on this matter

[Noraa]

Noraa look at BM for me, what do you see?

BM behaves exactly like this as town yet not like this as scum.

[Noraa]

The aggressiveness could be NAI but I think if its AI its definitely town indicative. I am not convinced BM is town yet but I do think that what he's done so far is not necessarily scummy especially for him.

[Noraa]

this is very much noraas scum meta.

that's what I started to notice too
Town Noraa didn't push this hard.

really? did you read Roses where I tunneled a vanilla town and almost lead to a mislim day 3 or 4 or something?