mystery box of silver 10. (done)

[Something_Smart]

Is there something I missed that implies that Gamma was groupscum and not 3p?

[Something_Smart]

the daycop says norwee is not a member of that faction. would be strange if that were 3p, n'est pas?

Indeed it would. This is a mystery box game though, are you really suggesting that something being strange is evidence for it being unlikely?

[Something_Smart]

1- The name of the faction (certainly you don't think of a lone 3P when you read "Army", do you?)

Not lone, but the last large MBOS had a group 3p faction, no?

[Something_Smart]

2- The fact Norwee has just been confirmed not a member of that specific faction.

And this very well could be a misdirection, iirc the MOBS games have included a lot of extraneous information.

[Something_Smart]

MBOS* that's what I get for typing fast

[Something_Smart]

actually i think it's more likely to be a fakeclaim than a legit guilty because tracker/MD in the same setup don't make a ton of sense

this is a MBOS game and also a large, so I disagree.

[Something_Smart]

who cops a miller claim

well it clearly wasn't a cop because it wouldn't have been fooled by a miller.

[Something_Smart]

Oh god this game is multi ball and I’m town.

Better than it being multiball and you being scum

[Something_Smart]

Assuming you’re town rule of three implies one of Mastina/Nero/you is scum.

Rule of... huh? Are you trying to modWIFOM schadd?

[Something_Smart]

what are the odds A50 is a cult leader?

0%

[Something_Smart]

The replaces came in and just led this discussion into a toilet bowl

eXCUSE mE

[Something_Smart]

i checked signups. it said no "epic bastard" I don't think that means cult is impossible

It's a fancy way to say no bastard so yes it does

[Something_Smart]

it also mentions "romance???" which makes me think there is a lover thing going on in that group

Probably a scum ability.

or just schadd being silly

[Something_Smart]

does anyone else feel like an ascetic claim is really out of place here?

why would it be out of place

[Something_Smart]

what are you talking about, Bell; I was literally proved right

i guess i would say the game is also not even regular bastard. there are no cults or alignment changes

[Something_Smart]

2. The Scum Team has at least 4 members. [Based on the revelations from Gamma in post chat]
3. The Scum Team has less than 7 members. [Arbitrary assumption based on Gamma's rants.]

Does this mean you're also assuming there's only one scum team?

[Something_Smart]

Well if you think my VCA has flaws, why don't you put forth what the army was doing and who the scumteam is?

this is dumb and you should know that... one does not need to have a working theory in order to be critical of a different theory.

[Something_Smart]

I found it highly improbable, just like multiball.

e x p l a i n t h i s

[Something_Smart]

are you trying to argue that catching up is bad or something...?

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Something_Smart]

I think s_s would be more engaged with all the claims/ set up spec if town here.

what's to talk about? it's a schadd game, you can't setup spec it on day 2, or at all really.

[Something_Smart]

Given a user generated list of players seemingly random/situational one of them more often than not is scum.

Is this based on something more than statistics?

(Also, the list wasn't user-generated, it was mod-generated.)

[Something_Smart]

I trust Something’s analysis on this.

it's not even analysis lol, it's reading the mod posts

[Something_Smart]

i'm mildly suspicious of ss being in this thread and yet completely ignoring the setup spec discussion happening

I'm not ignoring it! How could you know that? There isn't anything worth commenting on.

And I wasn't caught up when I made those posts anyway

[Something_Smart]

So.... THERE ARE NO MASONS. Mason is only a functional term here. We don’t want to type goliath health interns or whatever titus’ party is called so we use masons all knowing that there are not actually any mason roles here. Get it?

A mason by any other name is still a mason... if you are confirmed town to each other, you are masons, regardless of what schadd said you are.

pedit: wait are you not town?

[Something_Smart]

I do know (or think i know) that gammas group is “scum” to some extent

Because Gamma fakeclaimed?

[Something_Smart]

It’s just a usual thing that happens. I don’t have stats on how usual.

Meh it feels random to me.

But it's moot, because they're masons (?).

[Something_Smart]

This wagon growing on S_S is sus AF. I dunno why ANYONE would want to build a wagon NOW when we have SO MUCH to wade through yet.

because people like voting and don't like waiting?

[Something_Smart]

I need a harf confirmation

I need a harf confirmation too, honestly.

[Something_Smart]

Did they say exactly what their wincon was?

[Something_Smart]

Town is town by any other name.

Not for the purposes of wincons...?

I would doubt that the town wincon is "all anti-town factions are dead and at least one non-anti-town player is alive."

[Something_Smart]

I mean I have the same access to the town wincon regardless of my alignment. You're right that I should have just checked it.

Weirdly it is true that town can win despite all townies being dead, so I stand corrected even though my statement was technically right.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: something_smart

are you voting me for being lazy? or did you not realize the town wincon is in the OP?

[Something_Smart]

I know. So what is that post indicative of besides laziness?

[Something_Smart]

@something smart, we literally share your wincon. It’s not difficult.

I mean, that wasn't the part I was concerned with, but since my wincon doesn't care about town vs benign non-town either, I don't think it matters.

[Something_Smart]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I said explicitly that for all practical purposes we count as TOWN for the win cons of both Town and Scum.. so assuming you're town and your win con is to eliminate all threats to town my win is your win and vice versa, unless YOUR win con also states there has to be at least one "explicitly town" player alive.

I didn't check the town wincon before posting that because I am a lazy-ass. We are on the same page now.

[Something_Smart]

"i didn't check the TOWN wincon" as opposed to "i didn't check MY wincon"

Why should I drag my alignment into this? The town wincon is available for everyone to see.

[Something_Smart]

I don't understand why you think one way of phrasing is more likely from one alignment than the other. They are equivalent.

[Something_Smart]

i think the SS wagon (other than the scumslip) is about as good as the gamma wagon yesterday. that is to say, i think its not good. and how often do scumslips actually come from scum?

Definitionally, 100% of the time.

But plenty of things look like scumslips that aren't.

Presumably you're asking "what percentage of alleged scumslips are real scumslips", which I would estimate at around 4%.

[Something_Smart]

If anything, 3520 is scum indicative because it equates being not town with being scum when that clearly isn't the case.

[Something_Smart]

There’s always the theory I have been kicking around that army is also 3P but op 3P and there is no group scum.

How is that different from groupscum lol

[Something_Smart]

This is assuming you are town, Shelley is town or made the 50/50 guess correctly with her teammates.

It's not even 50/50. If she's scum and got something and she knows you're either loyal or disloyal, then obviously she knows you're disloyal and should claim she didn't get anything.

[Something_Smart]

the "you" being +J of course

[Something_Smart]

im town

That's not a flaw. If you're town, then any statement "If shelly is scum, then X" is true by default.

[Something_Smart]

pedit: yeah, but X isn't correct

It is true that you are not conftown via mechanics.

Argue all you want that you would have been too clueless to correctly figure out how to answer as scum, but that is another matter entirely.

[Something_Smart]

they've scumslipped

I don't believe you responded to this:

I don't understand why you think one way of phrasing is more likely from one alignment than the other. They are equivalent.

[Something_Smart]

if town would make you more likely to say you'd check your role pm imho

Why? That phrasing seems like unnecessary LAMIST. We are discussing the town wincon; this is something objective. We're not discussing my alignment, there's no reason for me to make it subjective when the town wincon is objective and available to all.

I will grant that a random person is probably slightly more likely to phrase it this way as scum than they would be as town. But I am not a random person, and something being slightly scum indicative is not the same as it being a scumslip.

[Something_Smart]

@@SS, Who is scum? I don't care about this slip argument.

No idea. I've been in this game for effectively twelve hours.

[Something_Smart]

SS who [is] just binning me away

I'm what now?

I don't recall ever sharing a read on you.

[Something_Smart]

I’m mod confirmed not scum.

No you aren't?

[Something_Smart]

I really want to see what Mastina thinks. Mastina while great at scum isn’t the best liar.

Okay, this is me not lying:
I have VERY good setup based reasons to believe that April Ludgate's roleclaim is complete and utter bullshit.

Can you just say them so that we can judge for ourselves whether they're very good or not?

[Something_Smart]

Both third parties, I want your wincons verbatim. I want to know where precisely y’all stand.

They already explained why they aren't going to do this...

[Something_Smart]

She said she has info making April scum. That’s called a guilty. It’s not a read it’s a guilty.

That's not what she said. She said she had mechanical info from which she has deduced that he's scum. But we have no evidence that the deduction was sound.

[Something_Smart]

If you believe Titus and Mastina they are.

Yes, that's true. But it wasn't true when Norwee made the post

[Something_Smart]

If you think they could dont you think they would???

No? I'm under the impression that mastina is hiding the information she is using so that she can catch scum in a lie in the future.

[Something_Smart]

Potato potatoh

For the record, I'm on your side, but I think it is important to point out that this is NOT a guilty-- it's just mastina's OPINION. An opinion that others may disagree with.

[Something_Smart]

I really want to see what Mastina thinks. Mastina while great at scum isn’t the best liar.

Okay, this is me not lying:
I have VERY good setup based reasons to believe that April Ludgate's roleclaim is complete and utter bullshit.

This is not confscum. This is an opinion.

[Something_Smart]

Mastina labels April conf scum in a separate post.

In light of the post I quoted, I'm reading that as typical mastina exaggeration.

[Something_Smart]

@SS - I’m reaching out to you here. I need a slingshot, or I need to slingshot.

I'm not going to accept mastina's vague claims, for sure. I'm not convinced you're town per se, but I'm leaning that way.

[Something_Smart]

What do you think about my comments on Morning Mage pushing Titus-Menal-Mastina, and Titus pushing Morning Mage like the sheer thought of that is ridiculous, when Mastina and Titus were a legit pairing?

Link?

[Something_Smart]

Constantly trying to so confusion/doubt about stuff

Confusion - where? I've tried to be clear.
Doubt - yes. If there isn't a good reason to believe something then it deserves to be doubted. Is there a problem with that?

[Something_Smart]

April

[Something_Smart]

It has been a while since I played with scumblade

But this sure doesn't feel like it

[Something_Smart]

Threats plural

The threats to the town include scum member #1, scum member #2, etc. All of those are separate threats.

[Something_Smart]

Used to be something like “You win when all the scum are dead” iirc

I mean I think it depends on the game. This game clearly has third party shenanigans and so schadd was understandably dodgy about the wincon.

It's possible to have just one anti-town group even despite that wincon. I once ran a game that was singleball but was deliberately presented in a way that made it look like it could be multiball or have a hostile third party.

[Something_Smart]

A50, did you know this was going to happen?

[Something_Smart]

We neighborized NorwegianboyEE.

We're also responsible for the A50 being king today. I only mention it because our ability blocks all kills on the target and we're missing a kill.

The missing kill is a vig kill though, right? Aren't you guys informed that it's singleball?

[Something_Smart]

mastina hood is town

They're really really not?

They're obviously a 3p group that has to manipulate the game in some way in order to win.

[Something_Smart]

bell you're alt right

Oof, low blow.

[Something_Smart]

Do you think that, with a scum 1x alien and a town Odd-night Disloyal Alignment Cop Inventor, that schadd_ in addition to the 1x alien gives scum an ascetic to further limit the number of possible guilties?

Why are people who willingly joined a schadd MBOS game trying to outguess the mod??

I don't get it. You can't do this crap here.

[Something_Smart]

This game should be a win if we just don't paranoia eliminate any of the hood members and just go for the scummy outsiders.

[c i t a t i o n n e e d e d]

I would definitely like it a lot better if the hood members told us what their real wincon was.

[Something_Smart]

If we don’t have a vig like Titus implies and we don’t have a serial killer like Mastina implies, what else is left?

PGO?

[Something_Smart]

1- I underestimated the "shallowness" of the Scum team, obviously. I thought you don't kill an ODD-Night Investigative on an EVEN night.

That's why they didn't kill an odd-night investigative on an even night. They killed an odd-night

inventor

on an even night.

[Something_Smart]

To those of you who can't keep up: Plus could only hand out Cop shots on Odd Nights. Those shots could only be used the night after, but that's not even the issue. These Cop shots could only be handed to SCUM as Plus was DISLOYAL, and he was outed as such meaning Scum can safely claim they received nothing and will know that also Town will not receive it.

Luckily, we have a million third parties that he could hand to...?

I don't really see what's hard about this. +J's investigative power was nil, he knew this. But he could still use his power on a town-by-any-other-name and make them a cop.

[Something_Smart]

SS, who is scum in the trifecta that has known scum in it? Why? Do you feel the others are town? How do you feel about the DDL consensus?

I don't have any opinions on any of the people in that block.

Well, that's not true. It's likely that jjh is indeed ascetic, and if he is ascetic, there's a decent chance he doesn't claim it as scum, but a smaller chance he doesn't claim it as town. So mild preference for not him.

[Something_Smart]

Is your full wincon posted by the mod in the PT?

[Something_Smart]

Its amazing you guys are not focusing on the mechanical inconsistency that April detected motion from titus and madrina says he can't.

Do you know what a motion detector is

[Something_Smart]

Anyone confirmed not!Army = town.

Coming from a literal third party

[Something_Smart]

Can I shoot Mathblade now?

No?

[Something_Smart]

Nice, but he would have still handed the next invention the NEXT night to be used ANOTHER NIGHT after.

Yeah, but now he can't. If they kill him N3, it doesn't stop the invention from going through, even if they have to wait until N4 for it to do anything.

[Something_Smart]

Some mods say that disloyal is anything other than your exact alignment.

There's another definition of disloyal besides this? That's news to me.

[Something_Smart]

He pointed out that Plus could've handed us the Cop shot.

I don't think I was the first person to point this out, though. I thought somebody said it yesterday.

[Something_Smart]

Not about +J dying. Just that +J could have targeted one of the masons-by-any-other-name and made them a cop.

[Something_Smart]

Titus said it was anti town to share the extra win condition even though the extra win condition is one in which the town loses but the block wins. It uh, was a wild take.

It may very well be anti-town.

But I don't exactly think they are in a position for us to accept that on faith.

[Something_Smart]

Why me = fry me.

of all the old dumb tropes this is the oldest and the dumbest.

[Something_Smart]

it's clearly someone's ability

if by someone you mean the scumteam then yeah, probably

[Something_Smart]

you think that the public cop ability is hunting a protown faction?

no, I think it's something that the scumteam is forced to do.

[Something_Smart]

I'd really like for players to maybe setup spec a little and hear what they think of the game with 3 other factions that aren't town. I'm a little confused as to what people actully think of what the setup is.

To clarify: is it true that your faction will always win if the town wins (though not necessarily the other way around)?

[Something_Smart]

both Math and S_S have been trying to argue that the third faction, king didi's army isn't scum but that's exactly why they are scum. :/

I certainly haven't been arguing that. I don't think Math has either.

[Something_Smart]

the scumteam is being forced to be cop checked?

Yes. This is very much in line with the previous MBOS games, where the scum were often forced to assign PR's or give other buffs to town.

[Something_Smart]

who do you this is the scum faction here?

I think that Donatello's Army is scum.

I think it's likely that schadd told them something like "at the start of day 2, you must reveal one player as not belonging to your faction; at the start of day 3, you must reveal three players at least one of which belongs to your faction; ..."

[Something_Smart]

Nero:

To clarify: is it true that your faction will always win if the town wins (though not necessarily the other way around)?

[Something_Smart]

So you have only one wincon then, and you leave the game when it's accomplished?

[Something_Smart]

and this was something done in previous games you say?

Very similar things were done. This exact thing is probably too powerful in a micro, which would mean it makes sense for it to be here.

[Something_Smart]

Can you link or give me something to search on for these?

It's pretty hard to find the setups in an easily digestible format but here are the design PT's for some of them
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=83356
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=81984
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=80651
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=79455
viewtopic.php?f=94&t=78603

[Something_Smart]

our wincon is a separate wincon that doesn't interfere with either town nor scum wincons.

our wincon is concurrent with the town wincon. Town has to achieve its wincon for our wincon to be possible.

These seem to be in direct contradiction. If town has to win for you to win, it sure sounds like that interferes with the scum wincon, no?

titus, myself and Mastina are a faction that have an alt wincon and we leave the game once we achieve it.

This is also in contradiction with the above, because how can you leave the game upon achieving your wincon if your wincon is dependent on the game already having ended in a town win?

[Something_Smart]

S_S you don't seem to be hunting much

look if I'm given the opportunity to engage fully in a game through exclusively mechanics discussion, I'm taking it ninety-nine times out of a hundred.

I am not good at hunting (and I missed an entire day), but I am good at mechanics, and this game needs all the mechanics help it can get.

[Something_Smart]

Because I think it's likely that your wincon is not in fact concurrent with town's wincon.

[Something_Smart]

Like, I've heard a lot of things said about your wincon. You just said three things that cannot all be true. I'm pretty sure mastina said earlier that you had two wincons, one of which was to see town win, which is implausible and completely counter to everything you've said. Plus, mastina and Titus united to push April based on logic which was not at all anti-town to reveal but that for some reason they acted as though it was.

And, to top it off, you guys have a lot of powers, and it seems very unlikely for those powers to just be town-aligned full stop, especially when the last large MBOS had a third-party faction with a bunch of powers to influence the game and their wincon was to make certain things happen, independent of who won.

Pedit: A50 and Norway do not KNOW your wincon, do they? Didn't one of you say that it was only posted in your faction PT and not in your neighborhood one?

[Something_Smart]

Who do you think is scum of the three of them are 3P town siding?
Scum siding?

(a) why should that change who I think is scum, and (b) you left out what I think is the only reasonable option which is that their wincon is agnostic to town and scum wincons.

[Something_Smart]

Norway, is the Nero/mastina/Titus faction's wincon posted by schadd in their neighborhood PT?

[Something_Smart]

S_S isn't scumhunting and focusing on mech is a good way to get townpoints

Who gives out townpoints for mechanics talk?

If such a person exists, I haven't met them.

[Something_Smart]

not by scadd no

so they don't know your wincon, they only know what you told them your wincon is.

[Something_Smart]

technically yes but why lie about it?

Your wincon could be any number of things. Look at MBOS 5 for the utterly ridiculous third party team it contained. I would put pretty much nothing past schadd here.

In the infinite space of wincons you could have, most of them include things that you wouldn't want town to know about-- for instance, maybe you need the game to last a certain number of days. Or you need a certain number of town-aligned players to be executed. Or you need to give out power roles and have them used in a certain way. Or you need to outlive the other third party group. Or you need to neighborize half of the living players.

I don't know. But all of these are things you would be motivated to lie about, because otherwise town would realize that you are not acting in their best interests and stop listening to you.

[Something_Smart]

It’s going to be hard for you to convince us otherwise especially since you don’t know what we know

But you don't know what you don't know.

(That sounds stupid but it actually makes sense! Think about it )

[Something_Smart]

just letting you know that this is scum S_S trying to sow doubt between our groups

Why is that more likely to come from scum than from town?

[Something_Smart]

Did you all realize that Nero’s faction might have a different wincon??? I don’t know I never considered this angle!! I guess we will have to run all information through SS now, since he is good at setup spec. Im glad I realized this and saved the game!!!

Have you been discussing what you think their wincon might be in your PT? It might be better to have that discussion in here, if it doesn't hinge on secret info.

[Something_Smart]

I get the doubt but sometimes liars if they exist won’t tell you they’re lying.

I mean, right now I'm waiting for Nero to explain the contradiction I pointed out in 5073.

If he doesn't resolve it, then he basically has told me he's lying.

[Something_Smart]

Do you want to have an actual conversation or are you just going to keep mocking things I didn't say?

[Something_Smart]

clearly, I'm lying

does this mean you're uninterested in addressing 5073?

[Something_Smart]

With all the fancy powers they have, I'm not sure saying "oh yeah we're just special magic townies, nothing to see here" would have been less suspicious than what they're doing.

Also, Nero just admitted to making a blatant contradiction and won't correct it, so there's that.

[Something_Smart]

p sure that a50 outted that we have a 2nd wincon @ the beginning of d2. S_S just now making a fuss about it is dumb and scummy. Was S_S here on d2 though?

why were you talking before as if you had just one wincon then :/

so you have:
- one wincon which requires town to win and some other stuff to happen, including for you to contribute to every scum execution
- a different wincon which can be achieved midgame and will cause you to exit the game?

[Something_Smart]

Assume the hood is scum with a traditional win con, I don’t think a 3/25 gets approved. Who else is scum with them?

I certainly don't think they're groupscum, if that's the impression you were under.

[Something_Smart]

There isn’t a scum in the hoods either, Gamma seemed too unaware about which players was 3P. Meaning there likely isn’t any scum in any of the hoods. Hence why we should focus on not town players outside the hoods.

I'm fine with that, on the condition that the next time mastina says someone is confirmed scum, we ignore her.

[Something_Smart]

so y aren't you hunting group scum again?

Because this game is far too chaotic right now for me to get > rand scumreads?

And I suspect this is true of most people, but at least I'm admitting it.

And the main reason why this is the case is due to your faction-mates. So that's why I'm focusing on you.

[Something_Smart]

But this doesn’t work.

Of course it doesn't. Nothing I do in mafia games ever works. So I might as well pick a useless thing that I enjoy.

[Something_Smart]

Do you know why you said it like that?

Presumably because he believes the Titustinaro faction's claim that Army is the only anti-town faction.

[Something_Smart]

Army can't hunt themselves. lookin @ you S_S.

But... they can pretend to?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Something_Smart]

Atm = at this moment.

This implies more to do after removing the Army.

Or it just implies that we may need to worry about the 3ps more later, but we don't have to worry about them right now.

Which in all honesty is probably true. But that does not preclude me from worrying about them anyway.

[Something_Smart]

and you should be town read for that?

That is most definitely not what he was suggesting.

[Something_Smart]

not hunting army looks like army to me *shrugz*

meh I've never really had problems faking reads as scum. generating reads is not the hard part about playing scum, but it IS the hard part about playing town, and the antics of certain people in this game combined with my late entry combined with the massive amount of mechanics discussion have made this exceedingly hard.

[Something_Smart]

"town-siding group"

not saying I disagree with your overall claim but

"SUPPOSEDLY town-siding group"

[Something_Smart]

"We" meaning those that haven’t seen the neighborhhod. But i understand the paranoia. It’s part of the challenge about this setup.

So wait, you do have mod-confirmation that they are pro-town? Or why do you keep saying this?

[Something_Smart]

the majority of players will be town.

I remembered this^

I have only now realized that 23 players - 3 town-by-any-other-name - 3 who-the-hell-knows - 5 Army = 12 townies which is just enough to be a majority.

But there's definitely nothing in there about 3ps sharing the town wincon.

[Something_Smart]

What are you trying to accomplish with all this sarcasm, superbowl?

[Something_Smart]

It’s the only way I can cope with terrible posts besides to push you for posting terribly. I could do that if you want but i prefer to keep the mood happy!

If you think my posts are terrible and that's hurting your enjoyment of the game, maybe you should let me know what about my posts is terrible so that I can stop making terrible posts. It's not like I'm doing it on purpose.

[Something_Smart]

I'm sorry if you got the impression that I think I know more than you. I don't think that.

What I think is that you and I both know very little about their faction. If you have mod-confirmed information that they are trustworthy, that's certainly something you should share with the class. But otherwise, you are in the same boat as I am where you have only their words that their wincon is whatever they told you it was.

As for the comment about discussing stuff in thread, well your sarcasm was pissing me off and I was trying to find a constructive way to respond to it. Your response implied that it was obvious that their wincon might not be what they claimed, but that implication didn't fit with my impression of the game.

So yes I do think it's too far, it genuinely irritated me and made me not want to continue sharing my thoughts because this is how they are going to be treated.

This game is a shitfest right now. You don't need to make it worse.

And now there are seventeen thousand pedits. I'll just post this anyway.

[Something_Smart]

DS probs in the scumpool as well due to Poe + I dislike the shading and discrediting

You're... you're scumreading DS for forgetting who's in Nero's faction and writing your name instead of mastina's?

[Something_Smart]

You would probably say that’s a pretty surface-level observation to be discussing over and over again, wouldn’t you??

I mean, it's not like I've just been literally repeating "Nero's faction could have a different wincon" over and over. I've been talking to Nero to try to sort his own story out (and it still doesn't make any sense), and I've been talking to people such as Norwee who seem to trust them but won't share why, and I've been discussing what the faction has done and claimed and how that fits in with their supposed motivation.

Likewise, if someone claimed a PR and there were 10 pages of discussion about whether their play makes sense as that role, and whether it fits in the setup, and whether the way they used it was consistent and believable, that's not a waste of time.

[Something_Smart]

the NKA is garbage.

It's garbage to suggest that scum killed a player with a power role to prevent him from using his power?

[Something_Smart]

The NKA regarding who made such a kill. Scum making such a kill isn't out of the ordinary. Plus is more likely to be protected on the night he gives out the power, if town even has a doctor.

Well, I never said that the kill was especially likely to come from any particular player. That's all A50.

[Something_Smart]

Give me a readslist that convinces me otherwise SS.

Fortunately, I don't have to convince you, I have to convince A50, and he knows that me not having reads isn't scum-indicative.

[Something_Smart]

town - Mathblade, NorwegianboyEE
protown 3p - A50, Morning Mage, superbowl9
townlean - jjh, DS
3p who's at least trying to help town - Titus
null - Tayl0r, Chemist, shelly, DDL, TGP
non-protown 3p - mastina, Nero Cain
scumlean - Pete, Bell

[Something_Smart]

It's likely that jjh is indeed ascetic, and if he is ascetic, there's a decent chance he doesn't claim it as scum, but a smaller chance he doesn't claim it as town. So mild preference for not him.

[Something_Smart]

I think it's your internet, site is fine for me

[Something_Smart]

Just curious why do you think an ascetic claim is more likely town than scum here?

The logic's in the post you quoted. Ascetic-scum-jjh might just not claim ascetic and enjoy his investigative immunity.

[Something_Smart]

That would be all well and good if you were in fact conftown

[Something_Smart]

The problem that I have (and presumably this is the same one that Mathblade and DS also have) is not that you have more information and are using it to make decisions we don't understand. That's perfectly fine as far as it goes.

It's that you're doing all that, while giving us little reason to believe that your motives are what you say they are.

[Something_Smart]

Titus, I'm referring to this:

That's the thing about conftown working in concert with more information. We can't take the chance of sharing our information (particularly our wincon), with anyone who isn't scum. So when you have one group that has more information than another, it's going to feel a bit like chess pieces. There's not much to be done. You and DS naturally rebel in such situations. Well scum!DS wouldn't. So there's always going to be conflict. It's what happened in that one game where Cerb and I were conftown and we misexecuted you due to your resistance.

You guys did the chess thing with the April execution. I predicted that the reasons were dumb, and when they were revealed today, lo and behold they were in fact dumb. You posting this makes me think that you're probably going to try the chess thing again, because you have more secret information that you don't want scum to know. Is that accurate?

[Something_Smart]

Scum!you can make that argument and town!math and DS will eat it up.

Because it's a valid argument independent of my alignment...

[Something_Smart]

scum HAVE to break the hood up. They know they can't hunt outside of the hood b/c any lynches outside of the hood just result in them being POEd.

how can this be true? wouldn't the game be absurdly townsided if this were the case?

[Something_Smart]

when I asked you who were scum and you told me that it was the kings army did you believe that kings army was INSIDE our hood?

no?

that was mathblade arguing that.

[Something_Smart]

ok summarize your case on TGP then

[Something_Smart]

I think you misunderstood what I was arguing there.

I didn't say I didn't believe that scum are outside the hood; I said I didn't believe that scum have to attack the hood because they will be PoE'd otherwise.

If there were enough town power to completely solve the game assuming the hood members are not scum, then that would be way too much town power.

[Something_Smart]

L o l

[Something_Smart]

what do you mean by "a reaction to it"?

[Something_Smart]

Is there any context at all about what the reaction might mean? Why does that reaction not match up with April's claim?

[Something_Smart]

Hm. It specifically relates to the ability used, rather than the person who used it?

[Something_Smart]

@S_S: You're our resident mechanical expert, and your experience is well needed.

With what? Chemist's claim?

The claim is very likely true and doesn't seem to lean strongly toward one alignment or the other.

[Something_Smart]

When they're pretty blatant scumplaining to me.

Are they not blatantly based on a misunderstanding of motion detector?

[Something_Smart]

Read this and find me an interpretation which isn't complaining that the game has too many conftowns.

"The balance seems off if these 3p's are all really townsiding, so I suspect there might be something fishy going on."

[Something_Smart]

Math has a pretty good scumgame (I was in the game that the quote in his sig is taken from), but it was pretty solid and conventional and the way he's playing here is anything but that.

[Something_Smart]

E-1 is misleading, but you are on his shortlist for execution and he did ask you to claim.

[Something_Smart]

i dont think day ends with a majority

No, it doesn't. But it does end when I decide to execute someone (between Taylor & Chemist.. maybe shelly too), so I would like to ensure the BP is assigned before I do.

Now. here's a request:

@Tayl0r Swift
@Chemist
@shelly

You should all claim in your next post. It'd be better if you also provided a read list and any other final thoughts. Treat this as your final post of the game. Thank you.

[Something_Smart]

As Titus said “Why me? Fry me”

yeah because the town response to being sussed for no reason is definitely to roll over and take it

[Something_Smart]

I mean why me fry me is an oversimplification so massive as to be worse than useless. I would have no issues at all with a detailed case of why this particular instance of why me was scummy.

[Something_Smart]

"Don't forget how hard I defended the flipped scum" is not exactly up there in my list of common scum defenses, yes.

[Something_Smart]

the push on D2 was, while wrong (April flipped town), very very very obviously an intent to try and lynch a second scum

I think it's within your wheelhouse to abuse the mechanical arguments like you did to deceptively push a mis-execution while claiming you're doing it out of an intent to kill scum.

There was really not as good a reason as you say to not out your reasoning, and if you had, one of your major points (that the neighborize is ninja and April couldn't have seen Titus act) would have been demolished.

[Something_Smart]

I don't understand either of those responses

[Something_Smart]

I feel like the game was designed, by the moderator, with the expectation that both three-man third parties would not trust each other and that the town wouldn't trust both of them, that the town would trust either neither of them or only one of them.

Why is that?

[Something_Smart]

counterpoint: S_S's claim to fame is a mechanical wiz. Do you really feel like town him wouldn't recognize what the setup is designed as?

It's not about recognition; it's not as though my mechanical aptitude grants me the superpower of knowing what the point of the setup is. I have to guess just like everyone else. It's just that my guesses are more informed than a lot of people's, and I think it's likely that a faction with this much control over the game was given that control because it has its own goals it has to accomplish that are not exactly in line with everyone else's.

That said. I have liked mastina's posts today far more than I liked them yesterday, and in particular I find them far less manipulative and authoritarian. Nero too, though his opinion of me is a bit silly, has seemed reasonably genuine. So I'm mostly at a point where I'm fine with cooperating with the hood, just also keeping an eye on them.

But I definitely don't want to see you guys try to strongarm something else like you did with April. If you do that, expect some pushback from me.

[Something_Smart]

this progression from SS pings me quite hard and i don't like it at all. d2 he barely engages with setup spec discussion, then does an absolutely massive flip d3 despite not REALLY that much new information.

hmm, let's see, we got two flips, a set of 3 people between whom there's guaranteed one scum, a lot of mechanical revelations from mastina about why exactly she distrusted April, plus A50 being a king and also our ability to vote for a bulletproof. we also got more statements about the 3p wincons that seemed contradictory, and there was no longer anyone trying to strongarm an execution so there's a chance to actually sit back and examine this stuff in a way that wasn't possible on D2.

But yeah, that's really not that much new information.

[Something_Smart]

When I made 3422, we didn't yet know whether Gamma was scum or 3p. (At least, I didn't.) I don't think much had been claimed about the 3p wincons besides that they were mostly pro-town, or again, if it was claimed then I wasn't aware of it. Most of the mechanical discussion was around +J's claim and April's claim, along with silly things like whether the hood was a cult. These are not interesting things to discuss. And while I theoretically could have started a discussion about the 3p's being potentially not townsiding, it's not like that discussion would have gone anywhere beyond "yeah, it's possible, we'll have to see". Now that all the aforementioned things happened, that discussion, and other similar ones, can be had in more detail.

I'm a very mechanics-minded person. That means that where there are arguments to be made based on mechanics, I will usually be interested in making those arguments. But it does not follow that there are always arguments to be made based on mechanics, even if there have been claims. Some claims are just null; Chemist's is a good example. You don't see me expounding on it, because there's just nothing to say.

[Something_Smart]

The shortcoming is in not realizing that the setup becomes townsided if that distrust doesn't happen.

Also-- I think this is backward. I realize that if you are in fact townsiding, then the setup is probably townsided if you are universally accepted as such.

If anything, my shortcoming would be erroneously believing that schadd wouldn't design his game around the 3p's definitely being distrusted. I feel like schadd would try to account for the possibility that the 3p's would be mostly trusted as well as the possibility for them to be mostly distrusted-- and the easiest way to do that is to make them mildly helpful to town, but not entirely so. (I do concede of course that schadd doesn't always take the easiest way out.)

[Something_Smart]

He's contradicting himself a lot. Normally, I wouldn't find this scummy/easy fruit but for a variety of reasons I can't quite articulate this might be one of those exceptions to the rule.

Sounds like a bad rule.

Contradiction implies lack of a plan. You're right that I didn't intend to focus on reads but that doesn't mean I won't get some on the side, and the best kinds of reads are the ones that you don't force anyway.

Your rule should be that contradiction is towny, because the person cares more about doing what they feel like doing in the moment than about projecting a consistent story.

[Something_Smart]

I mean yes obviously no rule covers 100% of cases. It's a heuristic. Contradiction is towny, without a particular reason to believe otherwise.

[Something_Smart]

If I was scum do I stall it out only to come back with a VT claim.

I mean, maybe.

[Something_Smart]

Why is your POE 5 players?

Imagine not believing your reads are infallible and 100% correct

[Something_Smart]

DO NOT EXECUTE OUTSIDE THE CONF GROUP UNLESS YOU DENY BASIC MATH OR ARE TRYING TO LOSE THE GAME

He has very good reasoning in that post, did you even read it?

[Something_Smart]

I am more interested in the theoretical correct play advice from S_S, mastina & jjh precisely.

Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with leaving the group of 3 alive another day. They'll still be there tomorrow. This is a large, we've got time.

[Something_Smart]

However if you think that DDL is the scummiest in the group and want to leave him so the 3p's can get their wincon off of him, then you should feel only a mild inclination to shoot in the group.

[Something_Smart]

Oh, I should have kept reading lol.

Weird to ask for the input of three people and then decide before hearing from any of them.

[Something_Smart]

I know that NOW

[Something_Smart]

Yes I read the post and saw the faulty logic behind it. I can post a diagram for you if you want because you don’t seem to understand

I typed out a response to this but then I realized that it would accomplish nothing except start another stupid argument.

[Something_Smart]

At this stage, I think the scumteam is most likely to be DDL, Taylor, DS, and one of TGP and S_S.

Remember to rule of 3 this

How do you rule of 3 something with 5 names in it

[Something_Smart]

Rule of three says anytime scum list three or more people at least one is scum (little more complicated than that but close enough)

I thought it was exactly three and exactly one. I guess this can be the Weak Rule of Three and the exact version can be the Strong Rule of Three.

[Something_Smart]

Rule of 3 is just the 1 scum off wagon, 1 scum on wagon shorthand it's not a good rule of thumb.

No it's not, that's something else. Rule of Three I know is if scum mention three people together then it's more likely exactly one of them is scum.

[Something_Smart]

Did I suggest that you did?

The scare quotes around "everything" imply that it's something that someone else said

[Something_Smart]

The second vig

The what now?

[Something_Smart]

I'm inferring we have an even night vig.

Based on the vig shot that didn't happen N2?

[Something_Smart]

Why does DS's flip imply an even-night vig

[Something_Smart]

Town needs more killing roles in a large.

According to whom?

[Something_Smart]

erm, i think you'll find that was MY theory

Wasn't it originally MY theory?

At the very least, I developed it independently from you.

[Something_Smart]

Woah, I thought I wrote buttercup.

You did.

[Something_Smart]

Ok i don't really like Bell acting like one of the hoods are fine but raising suspicion about the other.

Except that one of the hoods is fine and the other may not be.

[Something_Smart]

S_S has done no solving at all

Yeah

and has been plain lazy throughout

Nah

Also what's this supposed to prove, do you think I forgot scum are supposed to fake reads or something?

[Something_Smart]

not yet b/c im not done typing. FFS! This is like mathblade scum meta RUSH RUSH RUSH

That is not Mathblade's scum meta in my experience

[Something_Smart]

That this isn’t an scum role, thus explaining that Tayl0rs paranoia of the hood isn’t genuine.

What do you mean by "scum"

[Something_Smart]

I'm fine with voting Tayl0r if she doesn't suicide.

[Something_Smart]

if a 3p came to you and said "for our wincon we need you to kill yourself, please kill yourself, itll also narrow PoE" would you do it?

It's for your wincon, you dingus. If you're town, anyway. The PoE is quite small; this gives us a chance to narrow it for free.

It's worth it unless you think you're, like, the towniest person in the PoE.

[Something_Smart]

ok so I like the concept of a third party that has to accumulate points in the abstract. I liked the olfs in the abstract, it just seemed like it was very disengaging for them. I don't like the HPJS, because they have a significant bearing on parity even though it's impossible to determine their motives. I correctly guessed that they had a point system and some of the things they scored points for were anti-town, but even then, they were a big enough force in the game that we just had to go along with whatever they were trying to do. Opposing them would have set the game at an impossible 8 enemies of town to eliminate. Okay fine that's evidence that they're not that anti-town, but it still didn't feel good.

As for the specific objectives, I liked the getting a mason executed one, I liked the tracker one, I liked the sacrifice one (sorta), I liked the D1 group one. I didn't like the wagon one, that seemed kinda arbitrary. Incentivizing getting NK'd would probably be okay if not for their other abilities pushing them toward claiming.

I really don't like how they don't count as alive for the scum wincon; in fact, it felt like the town role PM was borderline a lie because they could reach a situation where their wincon was perfectly achievable and yet they lost. With that many third-party players I think publicizing the scum wincon would have been fine. Also, the HPJS being able to win alone seems ridiculous, because that necessarily means they already won and chose to remain in the game just to screw everyone else over. Third parties that have already won/lost should always exit the game immediately imo.

The roles seemed mostly fine. Tracker appointer was nice, the disloyal inventor combined with friendly 3p's was cute, the kingmaker was nice.

The scum public info was a very nice mechanic, but it seemed like it wasn't very balanced (though the game was actually 13:5 instead of 19:5 which is kind of a nuts ratio).

Overall I feel like town should have been given more information about the conceit of the game, given that the majority of important things were things the town was literally never capable of knowing with any certainty-- the scum wincon, the interns being truly town-aligned, the powers of the society or the society's wincon. It made me feel, well, powerless, because all of the relevant details were things I had to trust people on, and all of the important events were taking place in secret.

I think that a point-based third party should probably be a single person, or else they should be a faction with confirmed information about them so town actually has an incentive to know when to trust them and when not to trust them. (April getting executed was a pretty big hit in terms of my trust of the society, because they very well could have had an objective to execute him-- pretty similar to the one they did have to execute an intern.)