Mini Normal 2177 | Town Win

[Shoshin]

Town are just as likely to "flail" as scum when they're under pressure. The entire notion of "flailing" is flawed. Please stop using this term.

[Shoshin]

No, but say what you want to say. I don't think I will change my mind, though.

Please don't let confirmation bias keep you from changing your vote. Is there some reason you're unwilling to vote Herta?

[Zurel]

No, but say what you want to say. I don't think I will change my mind, though.

Please don't let confirmation bias keep you from changing your vote. Is there some reason you're unwilling to vote Herta?

I don't see what is so scummy about Herta, as of now. Hiraki made a case against him but I didn't buy it, or I would have voted long ago when I changed my vote from TGP.

[Shoshin]

I'm going to address concerns with Golden first, then I'll talk about Herta/Taylor.

1. Suggesting a policy lynch on NM at the start of the game isn't scummy. Townies suggest a policy lynch on NM all the time. It's especially not scummy in Golden's case because he offered a way to check his behavior in reference to Mathdino.

2. Golden's early scum read on NM is actually more likely to come from town than scum, because scum have no need to tie themselves down in that way when pushing a PL. Townies tend to push policy lynches on players who they also find scummy. Golden's read also made sense, especially given NM's self-vote & his higher level of engagement than normal (NM likes winning as scum, don't underestimate him).

3. Golden's early town reads aren't scummy. It's not scummy to start looking for reads on the very first page -- many players do this -- and it's not scummy to focus on town hunting over scum hunting. Many players never state any scum reads, but instead hunt exclusively for townies. The idea is to find the scum via poe, because in general it's easier to find town than scum. If you're able to find enough townies to narrow the scum to a lynch pool, town wins. This is a legitimate strategy, and it's employed by a lot of players, not just Golden.

4. Self-preservation isn't exclusively a scum behavior. Remember, townies know their own alignment, so they know there's more chance of lynching scum by lynching anyone but themselves. It's always better as town to vote any viable wagon that isn't yourself, and this doesn't make Golden scummy. If anything, Golden's blatant disregard for the notion of "flailing" suggests that he's town who doesn't care about appearances at all & just wants to do what's best for town.

5. Golden's reads have been fine. His analysis has been fine. He's been active & engaged throughout the game, more so than a lot of other players. There's nothing actually scummy about his play. The worst thing I've heard against him was that he went from town reading Taylor to scum reading Taylor. But it's expected that people would change their reads, and in this case, it makes sense not only as a matter of self-preservation but also because Taylor's been scummy & Taylor's push on Golden has been awful.

What other reasons do people have for voting Golden? Please allow me to address any concerns.

[Shoshin]

Now, Herta.

1. Herta's first substantive post (66) is calling Gertaint out for "OMGUS." That's typical scum play, throwing out some buzz words without actually analyzing the situation. If you look closer, it was fairly evident that Geraint's vote wasn't OMGUS, it was a surprisingly substantive vote.

2. Herta's second substantive post in the game (68) is asking me whether my vote is RVS. It's fairly clear to anyone who was reading that we were past RVS, so I'm not sure why he'd go there. As scum, Herta's focusing on things that don't require deep analysis (i.e. the lack of reasons attached to my vote). It's very easy for scum to look at a naked vote & question it. It's also evidence that Herta isn't putting much thought into the game, just grabbing easy things to comment on.

3. Where are Herta's early reads? He votes me, & then says a bunch of nothing about everyone else. In 116. he wants to keep Zurel from town reading Taylor too easily while also keeping Zurel from scum reading Fuzzy. Why? It doesn't square with Herta's defense of Taylor by attacking me. There's a lack of internal consistency to Herta's posting, and worse, no substantive commitment to any actual reads, just questioning other people's reads. This is how scum tends to play early game -- commenting on other people's reads, sewing doubt, but not actually taking positions of their own.

4. There's not much more to Herta's substantive posting beyond the above. Herta's been inactive during the important parts of this game. He's said nothing helpful or useful. When he finally posted again, he virtually ignored the main wagons, other than to say he didn't want to join them. He hasn't offered any substantive thoughts about most of the game's posts. He seems emotionally disconnected, unable to get involved. Scum tend to become emotionally disconnected from games where the town is doing all the work for them -- when town are voting each other -- and scum doesn't need to get involved or manipulate townies. As I've already suggested, I believe Nora's obsession with Golden is misguided, and it's likely causing scum to let town implode on itself instead of actively manipulating. This points most strongly towards Herta as scum.

5. Herta's scum via process of elimination. Everyone else has at least had some inkling of a town perspective & a desire to solve, when compared with Herta.

[Shoshin]

Herta keeps himself disconnected from the game's biggest issues -- the wagon on Golden, for example -- yet at the same time, he says he wants to sheep Nora, the town's obvious VI. There's just a lot of good reasons to vote Herta over Golden.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to flesh out the final point re: process of elimination. I think there's a fairly large group of obvious townies in this game. They include Rock, Zurel, Hiraki, Geraint, & Nora, most obviously. That leaves scum in the group of Jackson, Taylor, Golden, Fuzzy, NM, and Herta. Among this group, everyone has demonstrated some hints of town other than Herta. I can point to specific language from each of them that suggests town, including even Taylor. Herta's the only player who doesn't have anything towny in their play.

I also feel somewhat confident about Herta as scum because Hiraki agrees with me, Hiraki's a strong town read of mine, and Hiraki's actually experienced enough to pick up this stuff, even if for the wrong reasons.

[Zurel]

Fine, Shoshin. I will unvote for now, but FOS still on TGP.

UNVOTE: TGP

[Zurel]

I'm not sure, but I think I might be E-1 just now.

[Shoshin]

Fuzzy uses a lot of language that I typically associate with scum, but when you look closer, the actual substance of his thinking isn't bad. There's actually a lot of indication that he's trying to understand what's happening in the game. This is townier than Herta, by a lot.

NM's been more engaged than usual. I don't know if it means town or scum, but I'm willing to say town for now. Either way, we can pretend NM doesn't exist until tomorrow.

Jackson hasn't been engaged, which appears similar to Herta, but when Jackson actually posted, his posts felt a lot more town than Herta. The analysis was substantive & the thought process was clear & easy to follow. His flip from calling me scummy to then calling Taylor's iso garbage felt very natural & towny, for example.

Even Taylor's townier than Herta. Taylor's been engaging with the game consistently, has offered points of analysis that make sense, and has even shown a few cases of genuine emotion. I think Taylor's still scummy overall, but relative to Herta, it's no contest at this point.

I'm willing to directly compare Herta with any player in the game. No matter how you shake it out, Herta is scummier.

[Shoshin]

You should join us on Herta, Zurel. Talk to me about your concerns. I understand it's difficult to stop suspecting someone you've suspected for so long -- I have this same issue with Taylor -- but you have to resist confirmation bias & reevaluate.

[Zurel]

Give me some time, Shoshin. I want to ISO some people first.

[Shoshin]

Give me some time, Shoshin. I want to ISO some people first.

Better to reread the game from start, as I did, if you have the time. I know ISO is easier, but full context is key.

[Shoshin]

Give me some time, Shoshin. I want to ISO some people first.

Better to reread the game from start, as I did, if you have the time. I know ISO is easier, but full context is key.

If you do this, you can skip all of Nora's posts.

[Zurel]

Give me some time, Shoshin. I want to ISO some people first.

Better to reread the game from start, as I did, if you have the time. I know ISO is easier, but full context is key.

If you do this, you can skip all of Nora's posts.

All right.

[Shoshin]

Nora, please vote for Herta over Golden. If not, please explain why you stopped scum reading Herta. What did Herta do that changed your read?

[Noraa]

Fine, Shoshin. I will unvote for now, but FOS still on TGP.

UNVOTE: TGP

weren't you already off golden?

[Noraa]

Nora, please vote for Herta over Golden. If not, please explain why you stopped scum reading Herta. What did Herta do that changed your read?

I never SRed Herta

[shellyc]

Official Vote Count 1.11

With 12 votes in play, it takes 7 to launch.

TheGoldenParadox

(4): geraintm, Noraa, Tayl0r Swift, Not_Mafia

(L-3)

Shoshin

(1): Herta

TheFuzzylogic99

(2): Rockhopper, Hiraki

Zurel

(1): JacksonVirgo

Herta

(2): Shoshin, TheGoldenParadox

Not Voting

(2): TheFuzzylogic99, Zurel.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-11-18 18:37:20).

Mod notes: ...

I want to VOTE: noraa[《/v]

Not counting this as a vote.

[Noraa]

my peasants

:O how rude!!!!!

[Shoshin]

Gun to head solve atm is Rockhopper/Golden/Herta

You did, Nora.

[Shoshin]

Nora, please read my posts on Golden & Herta. As far as I can tell, I addressed your concerns with Golden.

[Zurel]

Fine, Shoshin. I will unvote for now, but FOS still on TGP.

UNVOTE: TGP

weren't you already off golden?

I feel like no one is reading the game (except Shoshin) and that hurts.

[shellyc]

mod announcement

JacksonVirgo has been prodded and has (expired on 2020-11-19 02:51:23) to post before I start looking for a replacement.

[JacksonVirgo]

Sup