stop fakeclaiming as town!: the case for lynch all liars

[Ramcius]

The town should not always tell the truth, or else the scum will assume that everything spoken anywhere is 100% true, which gives them even more of an edge than they already do. Now, I'm not suggesting to lie your ass off, but to be strictly truthful gives the mafia an edge.

Also, if you're ever caught in a lie, you'll always be executed under the assumption that lying = scum.

As a scum player at heart, I'll always take town shrouded in paranoia over some bits of info about who has what role or what they did during some nights

Not necessary - I'd execute liar for simply being detrimental to town and gamethrowing

[Ramcius]

As a scum player at heart, I'll always take town shrouded in paranoia over some bits of info about who has what role or what they did during some nights

Ah, but that paranoia would also exist even with a truthful town, since the town don't know who they can trust.

I would more likely to trust someone who I know said true in past and I'm very likely to ignore everything that comes from person who likes fakeclaims and gambits

[Ramcius]

I would more likely to trust someone who I know said true in past and I'm very likely to ignore everything that comes from person who likes fakeclaims and gambits

Then you're not scumreading them for lying, you're ignoring them because they are continuing a trend of lies.

You know, when you TR someone and you want execute them same time, it isn't healthy for a game, also, if I can't trust someone, I'm losing on info, if that person is being truthful. Another thing that other people will scumread them and they would clog thread with it while people who TR liar would fight first group. In the end you'll misexecute someone in the end, because you had not enough time to actually find scum due both groups bickering. I've seen that happen too many times

[Ramcius]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

Who should I ask to get my permission to rewrite site rules and outlaw fakeclaiming?

[Ramcius]

It's true that nobody is bounded by unspoken agreements or by site culture, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people will get angry at you if you go against it.

If no one is bounded to it, then when you break it, the only people they should be angry at is themselves for not making the unspoken guidelines into something players are bound to.

Who should I ask to get my permission to rewrite site rules and outlaw fakeclaiming?

The men, the miths, the legends, or the admins

I guess you know them better, so can you get those permissions for me? Cause they said "No!", when I asked. I mean, you speak like it's really easy to get rules changed and it's our fault for not doing it

[Ramcius]

Like Ram you really seem to have your head up your ass here, I have to say.

I mean, simply idea of actually outlawing fakeclaiming is ridiculous, that should be hint that I wasn't being serious. But neither was Jake serious, when he suggested that we should blame ourselves instead of being angry on people, who are borderline gamethrowing

[Ramcius]

I'm not actually convinced Jake isn't serious.

He might be serious about fakeclaiming in general, but he isn't serious about changing rules to outlaw town fakeclaiming

[Ramcius]

Because disinformation leads to wrong conclusions, I dunno why do I need explain this. Well timed lie is grasping at straws, you know that in most cases you can get away without a lie and using once in a blue moon scenario to prove your point and give people permission to fakeclaim is bad

[Ramcius]

Because disinformation leads to wrong conclusions, I dunno why do I need explain this. Well timed lie is grasping at straws, you know that in most cases you can get away without a lie and using once in a blue moon scenario to prove your point and give people permission to fakeclaim is bad

If you believe everything you read as a townie, then you need to stop it. The ability to divine lies, and the ability to craft lies are both skills that every player in a game of mafia should have, regardless of alignment or goal.

How to find scum, if I can't trust anything other players say without any hard proof?

[Ramcius]

How to find scum, if I can't trust anything other players say without any hard proof?

Look beyond whether or not they're lying, and ask why they did what they did. Is it to further a pro-town agenda, or does it further a pro-scum agenda?

Know an easy way to determine when it's pro-town and when it's pro-scum? Because people use "town has no reason to lie" approach for a reason - determining motivation is hard, especially when dealing with edgelords who think they are smartest cookie in the room and try to lie just because they can

[Ramcius]

Look beyond whether or not they're lying, and ask why they did what they did. Is it to further a pro-town agenda, or does it further a pro-scum agenda?

Okay, so people telling lies that would further a pro-scum agenda, like getting town eliminated or preventing themselves from being eliminated by claiming something that doesn't fit with the setup should just be policy eliminated without further question?

I agree.

No, no no, you got it all wrong, he says that lying is a pro town behavior and we should learn to recognize that

[Ramcius]

Tbh, executing or not executing exposed liar is lesser of an issue in fakeclaiming, but still it hurts town, because there's always are people with "execute liars" mentality and they will push that idea clogging thread and dampening discussion. But real problem with fakeclaiming is that it leads discussion in the wrong direction, you have to think of a setup that makes sense with fakeclaim, with night action that never happened, what if there is CC and fakeclaimer doesn't budge? What I'm trying to say it's the act of lying that hurts most. And even if you get scum with your lie, it may have drastic consequences like outing PRs who CC liar or exposing PRs in the process with different roles that doesn't make sense setup wise given fakeclaim

[Ramcius]

And policy execution of liars is more of way to say them that this stuff isn't ok and they shouldn't do it rather than thinking that liar is a scum

[Ramcius]

How to find scum, if I can't trust anything other players say without any hard proof?

Look beyond whether or not they're lying, and ask why they did what they did. Is it to further a pro-town agenda, or does it further a pro-scum agenda?

Know an easy way to determine when it's pro-town and when it's pro-scum? Because people use "town has no reason to lie" approach for a reason - determining motivation is hard, especially when dealing with edgelords who think they are smartest cookie in the room and try to lie just because they can

Determining motivation is hard, even if the town are 100% truthful and the scum truthful about everything that isn't explicitly anti-town. This is not a problem with lying, it's a problem of determining motivation.
I repeat: Determining Motivation has nothing to do with Lying.

Enforcing a "Do not lie as town" policy does little to help the town, but helps the scum a lot, because they now know that

EVERY DAMN THING POSTED BY NON-SCUM EVER

is 100% reliable, which is a bad thing. The scum

DO NOT

need more information than they already have, so offering up true information 100% of the times helps the scum, which hinders the town.

See, that's where we disagree - it's much more harder to determine motivation, when people are lying or when you can't trust people

Again, this is false, scum already ahead, giving info doesn't help them that much, but false info hinder town more than it hinder scum - scum are more likely to see a lie with their info advantage, but town has to consider a lie to be true, also, scum doesn't really need info outside of figuring few most powerful PRs to deal with them ASAP, everything else is in towns favor as more info in play makes missexecutions harder

[Ramcius]

How to find scum, if I can't trust anything other players say without any hard proof?

Look beyond whether or not they're lying, and ask why they did what they did. Is it to further a pro-town agenda, or does it further a pro-scum agenda?

Know an easy way to determine when it's pro-town and when it's pro-scum? Because people use "town has no reason to lie" approach for a reason - determining motivation is hard, especially when dealing with edgelords who think they are smartest cookie in the room and try to lie just because they can

Town can lie.
Scum HAVE to lie.

Town's collective job is to find out the motive of the lie to determine if such could come from town or mafia.

Scum's collective job is to lie to appear town and get town misyeeted.


In law enforcement cops lie to get truths from suspects out. Parents lie to catch their misbehaving children in their lies. Wives lie to trap and catch their cheating husbands (and viceversa) and there are many scenarios from real life.
The same applies in a game of deduction like this one.

If you think that liars should get killed then i will tell you this, my best scum games were when i truth wolf. (The act of always telling the truth as scum). The best way to “lie” in a game of lies is by not lying.

I simply love how people intentionally misinterpret things just to say something obvious to look smarter.

You know, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have to do it.

Who says that you must lie as a scum? You don't, but a lot of them do, so yeeting liars is an easy way to deal with scum who likes to lie. It's an easy to understand and use scumhunting technique that was used for decades, but if you think that this method is bad or outdated, we'll gladly listen to you better and more optimal scumhunting techniques

Bonus points to you for pretending to understand how logic works.

[Ramcius]

you failed to counter how those real-world scenarios apply to the game

I don't have to, cause these real life scenarios have vastly different circumstances than mafia - law enforcement and parents are in the seat of authority, so only IC making some gambit can be compared to it. Also, it is used to get confession, when you already know that other side is guilty, which isn't easy applicable to mafia

[Ramcius]

There is no need for your condescending tone here, we are not playing mafia, you need not to publish scummy posts.

By being scum and having to show town why you are one of them, you are already lying.

So yes, you have to lie as scum by principle and you have to tell the truth as town by principle in a perfect world. Luckily (or unluckily, depending on the perspective) the world is not perfect and there are people with different personalities, behavior traits, culture. biases etc

There are town players who lie to get to the truth and backfire on them, there are those who lie to get truths out and work!
There are town who are always truthful and get death tunneled for it because they are obvtown too.

You can't be 100% truthful as town in a game of lies specially in games with Power Roles because you have to fool Mafia into believing that you are not the cop or the doctor.
I've seen town players lying in the game to pocket wolves and backstab them at EoD.

If you yeet a town for lying without looking beyond the purpose of a lie, you are as much anti-town as those that lie without purpose while being town.

I think you misunderstanding something - there is a big difference between confirmed lying town and unconfirmed lying town. No one is going to yeet confirmed town, who lied, but if you aren't confirmed town and you got caught, you aren't town in other people's eyes, you aren't lying town, you are a liar without credibility and in most cases best course of action is to remove you from the game, finding true motivation behind the lie is hard, convincing people that your interpreted motivation is the true motivation is even harder. So even if you don't yeet liar, it is very likely to clog thread with discussion about yeeting liar and liar is an easy target for scum to point at, when they need misdirection or contribution.

I agree that it can work, but chances of backfiring is high and that makes it not a viable strategy - you should play to best of your ability to win and making risky play is counterintuitive to that

Getting doc or cop doesn't give you right to claim different role to protect yourself, unless it is agreed that strong PRs claim VT in massclaim or there is some other agreement. Also I'm a firm believer of idea that your playstyle should remain same no matter what role you have, otherwise it's too easy to figure out what role you got, if you play differently as a doc and as VT for example. Similarly it doesn't give you right to fake a guilty, if you get a weak role, but you have a really strong suspicion

I will leave out semantics discussion of what is and what isn't a lie for scum as it has nothing with the subject of this thread

Lastly, there was no need for your mockery either

[Ramcius]

I agree, mockery was not needed but you had it coming. Let's just treat each other with respect despite our differences in opinion and we'll get along really well.

As a player who fakes his meta in every game, I gotta say changing playstyle is a must if you want players to judge you based on what you are doing in the game and not based on what you've done in the past. If I can fake meta other people can too and getting judged on what people expect to be your usual style sucks.
See? That in itself is lying too but it is lying to protect my future games as either alignment.

Again, I never said to establish a meta, I said don't establish your playstyle on the role you got. If you change your playstyle every game, then that's your playstyle - doing something new every time

Yes, I see, but I'm too lazy to think some way to make fun of you, and I don't see how it protects your future games, when you say we should respect each others different opinions, then try to mock me again with example that isn't what this thread is about.

Also, I don't mind people trying to mock me, it just surprises me that they don't expect me to respond in kind to their terrible mockery. "You had it coming" is funny excuse, seems like you need a justification for it too. Do you feel like your mockery was inappropriate or something in this discussion?

[Ramcius]

Are you saying you didn't mock me after saying that I had it coming? That's a rhetorical question, I don't really need an answer

Secondly, lynch all wolves is a goal of the mafia, it's unconditional, it doesn't matter, if wolves say truth or not...

Lastly, this thread is even named "stop fakeclaiming as town", it's about big lies that changes course of the game, no one is going to lynch a person for some obscure lie that no one care about, that's just basic common sense, we literally were arguing fakeclaiming for couple pages, I mean, I have really hard time to believe that you are oblivious to such extent and you come as really nitpicky troll

[Ramcius]

No im saying that I mocked you in response to your scummy condescending post, where i said that you dont need to publish scummy posts. Is that the one you considered a mocking of you?

Secondly, that is not the point, stop arguing just because you wanna win the argument, stop Donald Trumping me.

Lastly, the thread says “stop fakeclaiming as town, lynch ALL liars!!” and I still disagree. Yes fakeclaiming as town can backfire bad for town, but it also can work great. I caught three wolves in another game at another site with a fakeclaim! 3/4 on Day 2. But i had to die so they (town) would trust my reads and I accepted it, now they are killing my scum reads one by one. It can work! You just gotta learn to see beyond the lie to determine if the fake claimer is town or scum and it will never be accomplished if town is so one-dimensional to believe that all town players gotta tell the truth, no they don't.

"If X is true, then Y must be true too" is a classic mockery, when Y is rubbish

Let me remind you that you picked this fight, you waltzed in and quoted my post trying to prove me wrong, not the other way around.

For the last time, just because something worked once doesn't mean it's a good strategy. Good strategy must works most of the times. If it doesn't, it's a bad strategy.