976: mystyry box of sylvyr I: isis game. day 3

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Catching up people

VOTE: Unvote while I do.

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probably being scum or something

tris

How come I want to eliminate you when you do stuff like this?

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First!
VOTE: DoubtingThomas
Sheeped me into the game on what was honestly a very weak case.

Town.

sky i missed who are your heads?
...
...
...

sus for not answering fast enough
VOTE: sky

Town?

Hello, folks. Nice to meet you. How do you do?

Scum?

hello, first time in a hydra!
VOTE: doubtingthomas

Scum.

VOTE: SKYEscrapers.

Scum?

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probably being scum or something

tris

i dont think the two posts that vote me are really scum reading me. do you? why?

"i'm scumreading you"

- tris

Not sure if it's real thought to... scum read me for you voting me before i even posted? How did you expect me to respond?

"Oh! You are voting me before I even posted? Why are you scum reading me?"

Doesn't make sense, right?

VOTE: skye

Newb or scum. Tbd which

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I'm scumreading you.

—Akarin

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Akarin can be town.

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Tris could you write you name smaller please? It's quite annoying to read it like that


Also thomas acknowledges the vote on him as RVS and yet he still acts as if he's being seriously suspected
VOTE: Thomas

If Thomas is town G can be scum.

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probably being scum or something

tris

i dont think the two posts that vote me are really scum reading me. do you? why?

"i'm scumreading you"

- tris

Not sure if it's real thought to... scum read me for you voting me before i even posted? How did you expect me to respond?

"Oh! You are voting me before I even posted? Why are you scum reading me?"

Doesn't make sense, right?

VOTE: skye

well, is that your response?

tris

like what kind of posts is this?

no it's actually my selfie

????????????

i meant like is the thing in quotes, but nvm it doesn't matter

Also thomas acknowledges the vote on him as RVS and yet he still acts as if he's being seriously suspected
VOTE: Thomas

this is a bad reason to vote for thomas. you'll notice that akarin DOES actually suspect thomas. VOTE: gypyx

i would like to ask thomas what about my behavior is actually scum.

Tris could you write you name smaller please? It's quite annoying to read it like that

mew

Ugh I hate skyscraper’s ISO too.

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there will either be 7 town and 2 mafia, or 4 town pitted against 5 self-aligned opposing factions, two of which have some mutuality in wincon and will be able to communicate via private thread.

^^
From the OP.

This reads like a 5 self aligned rather than 7 town 2 mafia. Would love to be surprised though.

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Hey mastina!

Honestly, this post is just to claim the pagetop, but what part of Tris' post is so Alien to you? Why do you think it is scum?

Perhaps you'll be able to rrad me better at least

- Ari

I think I can elaborate better upon reread
this feels like, too eager/anxious to shake an early wagon off when it's nothing and rvs. This could be for multiple reasons, but for now I think it's a minor scumtell at least enough to go here

This post is good and bad from my prior counterpart.

It’s something I would expect a newb to do. Not Ari.

I think Sky is self aligned but if I am wrong on the setup then wondering what the hell they’re (especially Ari) doing.

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Honestly, this post is just to claim the pagetop, but what part of Tris' post is so Alien to you? Why do you think it is scum?

Because gut?

Do you expect an actual logical reasoned case for a literal page one read?

Hello y'all i'm a kind of reflexive role, could i get visits on me in the coming nights? Kthxbye

Town.

nice try scum pgo

Town?

this kinda pings my gut though I have trouble explaining why
ehhhh
VOTE: skye

Shamelessly upgrading my read on you from Town? to Town.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas
Who, similarly, gets upgraded from scum? to Scum from page two.

Okay I think Mastina and Skye are against each other.

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why is town!ari more likely to make that post than tris?

Because tris making that post is probably scum, but Ari making that post is far more likely to be a town-Aristophanes due to Aristophanes being Aristophanes.

You can't expect an action to universally always be scummy or always be townie with 100% accuracy and not take into account specific players. An action that might be generically in-general scummy can be a lock-scumtell for some players or a town indicator for other players even if in general it's scummy; an action that might generically in-general be townie can be a locktown level of town in some players...but also a dead giveaway that some players are actually scum.

25 is a post that, in general, generically speaking, I'd consider to be a scummy post to make.
From tris, I'd go one step further and say it's even a lockscum post.
But from Aristophanes, knowing him as a player, it's actually the opposite, a post that for him, indicates he's more likely to be town.

And this is where I look at Mastina and go ? Uhm what?

Assuming I buy your argument the claims are inverse. And I cannot say why without being proscum/neut.

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yes towns make scummy posts all the time. scums are the ones trying to actively look as townie as possible, albeit good portion of people do try to play too wolfy to be a wolf game

trying to decipher one's slot based on a few posts that of your personal opinion you believe is 'scummy' and 'townie' is rarely going to be very accurate.

however, trying to push on what you believe and getting reactions, interacting with multiple people really does the trick. so keep at it boys and girls and the others!

You read to me as rusty or new. Which is it and why?

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Could you like, elaborate on these reads instead of just saying town / scum

I'm told that's what mastina does every game. I for one have no issue with it. Early readlists don't require much explanation

Gypsy + Sky v Mastina + ?

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Uh it's not you, it's me.

Should I be voting for this DoubtingThomas character?

That's what they all say *sniffle*

And it depends on how much you like early Day 1 Dastardly Deed -1 (DD-1?)

DT is my top scumread right now, but...

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It's 5 to Perform a Dastardly Deed

I think it’s currently at
DT (3): Akarin, Gypyx, Mastina
gypyx (2): DT, SKYE
SKYE (1): PlusJOYED
NicCage (1): Nona

Not Voting: (2): Dunn, NicCage

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For future reference, Page 2 DT vs. SKYE peak wagons were:
DT (3): Akarin, SKYE, Gypyx
SKYE (3): PlusJOYED, Mastina, DT

1 scum in akarin/gypxy/mastina

and 1 in skye/plustjoyed/nona/dunn/niccage i think

dunn and niccage not voting at this point is an alright look

Hmmm I find this odd you’re assuming two scum here. This seems like trying to push a bias here. I don’t like it.

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None of the above, nic's style is unusual, you can't deny that, therefore i'm asking if someone knows how he usually acts in general, idk why you're even trying to represent that as me reading him in a specific way

nah that is not a townie mindset.

Again, if someone's style is 'unusual' and if you are genuine about solving someone 'unusual' it's townie for you to be the actually trying to interact with t hat slot and/or figure it out

just saying undirected question gets nothing done. i've seen way more scums just ask (not necessarily the same type of) questions in the open air that a lot of people either don't have answer to or answer is straightforward to make it seem it's more obvious that you are asking questions, but in reality those questions doesn't really help any of your solving (e.g. why is X a wagon?)

I really believe if you are town and you genuine thought nic's posting to be weird, you should be asking nic the questions yourself especially by pointing out what was weird/what you are confused about

in fact, you actually NEVER asked nic any questions yourself, you just openly said, "does anyone know this guy's meta?" and then for some reason you think you asked nic yourself, which you never have..

i am thinking this is slip. you don't even know who you directed your questions to, but yout hink you are asking questions. this literally shows you don't care if your questions get answered or not, you are just throwing shit (questions) to the wall and hope it sticks.

you never cared about your question about getting nic's meta anwered by someone. you never asked nic himself to solve his slot. yet you pretend i am misrepresenting you, and also when nic does come in, instead of trying to solve or ask him legit questions, you mistakenly thought you asked him any sort of relevant question, which you have not.

you are a wolf.

Okay you can be rusty. I like this post. You can be light town.

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I also think NicCage is likely to be town for looking at things outside of the game state. Hard to imagine a wolf to be checking people's activity and when they logged in or not.

No, scum can do it, it's easy to do. It doesn't require me to take any difficult position, and I don't have to defend it since it's an objective fact.
Also, don't do what I did lol rules

So, i kinda doubt that both nic and thomas are scum together, for the reason that like, we have 4 low activity slots i don't think these slots are all town, therefore by PoE i'd say that nic is very likely town

What do you think about my read on you? Does it have any bearing on your read on me?

I like this response from Nic here.

Things like activity overview should be avoided in a game.

Gypyx also goes further down on my reads due to what looks like TMI not together with G.

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With Nic*

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You know, I think Nic might be my biggest town read. I'm never voting Nic today.

I can see it I think.

But your math is wrong because reasons.

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And why that? What's the incentive to not give the reasons behind your reads?

A combination of laziness (I don't like to), feeling it's unnecessary (if the game doesn't need me to explain for it to progress, then I'd argue it's counterproductive to do so due to...), and reactions; I tend to get better reactions from not explaining than I do from explaining, and it leads to better dialogs overall than if I explain things in detail from the start.

Also I like narratives; I like to slowly work things up, with a slow buildup to the full case. Where I give nothing initially, give reactive pieces of reasons when catching up, more detailed reasons in a collective post and then if necessary expanding those collective reasons with extra detail into the fullblown case.

VOTE: Mastina

This is the fourth time I have disagreed with your reasoning in my head. Some mentioned. I wanna know why. Majority of thread is dissonant with you yet you’re not worried. Why?

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Also why is akarin in null? He's pretty towny imo

She. And really when there are only 2 scum in the game, handing out townreads to everyone else but me and the 2 scumreads makes that null realistically a lean scum on TGP's part.

Is that a scumslip? Like, how do you know there are only 2 scum in the game?

VOTE: Akarin

Bookmarking this in case it’s Mastina + G and Mastina lock Towned TGP because they townread G. This would make Sky town here.

I think two scum vibe may make sense after all.

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Okay, the only way I see this move making sense for teamscum!Gypyx is if he's partners with Dunn and panicked about how little resistance there might be to a Dunn Dastardly Deed. Otherwise it just seems too weird to be scum.

I disagree. I kinda wanna see that play out.

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Nic, you're some kind of informed townie or what?

This is scummy af.

VOTE: Gypyx

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Outing me huh. You've had more than enough opportunities to talk to me, I'm not engaging with you now.

If he flips scum, the Mastina connection makes perfect sense. Initially he spoke to me in the neighborhood and told me he was suspicious of me, I suppose owing to my original posting. But after his little interaction with me in the main thread, he basically stopped communicating. I have tried throughout the game to try to get some kind of cooperation out of him, but nothing was forthcoming.

81 Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:22 am Dunnstral's last interaction with me
123 Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:57 pm Mastina's post where she claims we are buddies

Should this not turn out to be paranoia, the timing of these events are perfectly suited for a plan between the two of them. His initial discussion with me is solo play, there's some time for them to discuss what the plan is, and then you see a marked difference in his play.

Dunn is playing like someone who wants to get eliminated. For awhile I have thought it is most likely that he is a third party, with some kind of restriction on his play. I thought that because I didn't think scum would play like this. This lurking is far too much for just laying low, anyone ought to see that it would attract suspicion, and that the day would end with a wagon on them.

Pretty sure Dunn is town. Reminds me of 1841 (game in my sig.) Dunn was a neighborizer who took a back seat in a hood.

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who do you think are towns

You, nic, akarin, skye, maybe plusjoyed

Good list.
I like it.

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I am not avoiding voting Dunnstral, and being neighbors does not make us masons. Watch: VOTE: Dunnstral DD-1

Dunnstral is lying about not noticing the setup, it is one of the very few things we talked about in the neighborhood.

Actually nic is in mason chat w dunnstral anyways so tjet both outted themselves yes

No we are neighbors. First off if we were masons we would be on the same side and he wouldn’t have outed me. Second masons don’t have a kill (as far as I am aware). So then there would be no scumteam. That’s possible, but how likely is that? Like Ari said earlier, we will very likely have more information in the future so there is no point in speculating like this.

I have niccage dunnstral gypyx tgp and akarin as the 5.

Can we kill nic today who outted that they r non town? Unless someone can specificaly point to nic being a very instruction following boi

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Thomas.
Reading is not scummy, town players need all the info they can get.
I am not the only person who read the setup.
If I am non-town, that means Dunnstral is non-town too.
Killing me first is dumb as hell, given the weight of information that could be gained on eliminating Dunn.

First off if we were masons we would be on the same side and he wouldn’t have outed me.

I claimed because I was put to L-1 with your help and needed to out the info to survive

I don’t believe you. That wouldn’t work anyway, even if you have a lower chance of being scum, you still have a 10% chance. My read on you takes precedence over a dice roll, everyone else’s should too. Claim your own role, not mine.

You’ve had every opportunity to enlist my help up until now.

ladies and gentlemen, observe nic's wonderful argument.
if his claim is correct, dunnstral has a 90% chance of being town. if he himself is town, then the probability of dunnstral being scum is 10%, whereas the probability of a random other person being scum is (0.9*0.286)+(0.1*0.143)=27.14%.

thus.

niccage believes that his read on dunnstral is approximately 3 times better than average. he is sacrificing a 27% chance to vote on a 10% chance.



now, imagine nic is scum, knows that dunnstral is scum as well, and wants to be on the dunn wagon for the towncred.

imagine nic is scum, knows that dunn is town, and wants to argue bUt mAh rEaDs to explain why he voted someone that was mod confirmed around 3 times less likely to be scum than any other random player.
not sure nic made these calculations himself, but it's so stunningly obvious that this is complete bullshit even from just a cursory glance at the numbers. can we please get nic today?

VOTE: niccage
VOTE: niccage
VOTE: niccage

pedit: that unvote is weird, but doesn't really change my view of the situation especially because it is implied the vote will go back on. nic is scum.

Can people stop using math in arguments. Your math is wrong if I start with your given premises.

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Cause it’s mentioned in the setup, either 2 scum and 7 town, or 4 town and 5 non-town, 2 of which share a wincon

Well this changes things.

If the game's two scum and seven town, then obviously there's a maximum of one nontown in Nic/Dunn since schadd_ wouldn't make a scum-scum neighborhood and I doubt they're lying about the existence of one.

But if the game's four town and 5 nontown, then I'd expect both of them to be nontown here, presumably with players like DoubtingThomas and SKYEscrapers filling in the gaps (because 5 nontown allows for scum to legitimately scumhunt).

Which is to say.

It can explain why slots that overall look like scum, have incidents of sincere pushes behind them.

VOTE: Mastina

You’re expecting me to buy you didn’t read the OP as town?
You’re fucking mastina. You reread the same words over and over again.

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I think for a disturbingly large number of players:

Dunn flips scum -> Nic is scumbuddies with Dunn and threw him under the bus.
Dunn flips town -> Nic forced it through and is getting away with too much, obvscum.

I'm not saying you should back off out of fear, I'm saying your logic doesn't particularly point to Mastina + Dunn as the only scum team where that has a scum narrative.

I may be weird but I think Nic + Dunn is TvT.

If it’s a 2 scum game it’s probably Mastina and G.

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viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

If anyone cares this is why I think Dunn is town.

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Go on. How so? Looks like to me he takes a back seat once someone is hooded and let others be in the spotlight starting D2. Here he started in a hood with you, you’re in the limelight and he isn’t.

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just curious - did you skim or read all the posts?

Speed read. Enough to get a general “vibe” of the thread and posted my thoughts as I go. Replacements can be harder to read so I generally try to post random thoughts that come up rather than a summary with reads.

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i like his entrance - but i can't quite put my finger on it. sounds like a competent player who can fake this sort of vibe and play as either alignment. i am wondering what others saw in PLUSjoyed cuz i saw some votes?

This is correct. I am competent as any alignment, but much better at scum than town. Would you like meta of each if you’re a meta player? I don’t hold much stock in it except when a player breaks a known habit.

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As scum I am more of a “go with the bad” type player. The best scum are town then town inevitably miseliminate each other, leaving me time to machinate and PR hunt in private in the scum PT. Still vocal and opinionated but if I have to force something I am already 3 steps behind.

As town I tend be more “look at me lead”, stubborn and opinionated but I don’t want things to get “off course” from how I see them as I don’t have a bunch of buddies to back me up. There is no plan, it’s much more wild.

As 3P I tend to be focused more so on surviving it’s a mix. I will definitely still butter people up but can’t go whole hog because then I am in the limelight for a kill or a miselimination.

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Go on. How so? Looks like to me he takes a back seat once someone is hooded and let others be in the spotlight starting D2. Here he started in a hood with you, you’re in the limelight and he isn’t.

I didn't read the game carefully, I'm reacting to the tone of his posts, which are very different. I can find examples tomorrow.

But now that you bring up the neighborhood element, I have went and looked at the neighborhood thread from that game. viewtopic.php?f=90&t=68713
I recommend you look at my posts which paraphrase the contents of the neighborhood this game. 387 390

There is a stark difference between the two. He is communicating with you, strategizing, talking reads. He never did any of that with me, but I tried to do it with him.

I am going to have to take your word that it is different then.

When Dunnstral opened with me it was about claims and what he thought because of it. Until Dunn feels solid in his reads, or at least a solid idea of one I don’t see him opening up.

Posting words isn’t the same thing as reads. People get this idea that the more someone speaks the Townier they are when the answer always is, it depends.

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Can I? Yes. Will I? I debated not as the math should not be a fundamental premise as numbers tend to dissuade people from a point. I will however put it in a spoiler.

Spoiler: Math stuff

Premises are assumed for the sake of calculation. They are not to be assumed to be my reads.
Premise 1) Assume Nic town and Dunn has a 10% chance of being scum.
It logically follows that one of three cases exist while still maintaining the truth of Premise 1:
A) Dunn is scum with another player (10% chance)
B) There are two scum and Dunn is not one of them ( 90% chance assuming Nic is town)
C) There are 5 self aligned and 4 town. (Ignored as assuming two scum scenario)

For the purposes of this calculation
Nic knows he is town. Therefore in two scum world there are 6 town 2 scum. This is 1/4 to pick a scum randomly aka 25%.
Assume Dunn is town. Therefore there becomes 2 scum in 7 players. This is 2/7 approx 28% odds to pick a scum randomly.
This however assumes an even percentile chance or RNG.

So right there before calculating the Dunn weighted it would be throwing away a 25% chance for a 10% chance using your logic but mafia is a game of reads. Expecting people to follow math is silly.

Now the other problem is if we assume the 10% scum for Dunn we also then have to figure out how likely that scenario actually is. Not to mention where this 10% came from.

Naturally if Dunn has a 10% chance of being scum, then necessarily the other players chance of being scum likewise go up. This limits the amount of viable scenarios.

There isn’t really enough information to even be thinking about this sort of nose dive here.

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Numbers are good and well up until a point. Sometimes a judgment call has to be made. While I disagree with it and wish Nic would join me on Mastina, Nic imho genuinely believes Dunn is scum. I would rather you not focus on probabilities and focus on reads.

What are your reads THP?

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I am going to have to take your word that it is different then.

When Dunnstral opened with me it was about claims and what he thought because of it. Until Dunn feels solid in his reads, or at least a solid idea of one I don’t see him opening up.

Posting words isn’t the same thing as reads. People get this idea that the more someone speaks the Townier they are when the answer always is, it depends.

I understand the difference between words and reads, but there are no reads.

How long does town-Dunn stay closed off? Is he going to stand on principle and let himself be eliminated because his reads aren’t solid yet?
Why did he never claim, even in private with me? Even when it was clear the way the wind was blowing? Even when I made it unmistakable that his play was causing me to suspect him?

That I don’t know. Without words I can’t really see what you do. Guessing what I can’t see would be a disservice. I just think you’re wrong on Dunn. It’s not a strong enough read for me to go “OMG stop the wagon you are wrong” and make a fuss, but it is strong enough a read for me to say I think you’re wrong.

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I think you are wrong.

And I think SKYE is wrong, and Akarin is wrong. But I’ve exhausted every argument I have and if I can’t convince anyone then I am willing to do Mastina.

But I don’t want anyone to forget: if Mastina flips scum, she knew Dunn and I were in a neighborhood together. And he is the most likely conduit for that information.

What makes you say that Mastina knew you were in a hood with Dunn? Did I miss something?

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That’s where imho you’re wrong because I know Mastina and regardless of her alignment she makes that post.
If she’s town, she tends to scumread hoods she’s not in. (See recent theme game where she and Titus scumread the A50 hood)
If she’s scum she probably did pick up on the hood connection but probably serves her interest to bring it to the forefront as to make the hood deaths a null kill that won’t point back to her.

I don’t see any foreknowledge there but I do see that whatever her alignment she did see something fishy.

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Furthermore, let’s assume Dunn wants to be eliminated. Scum generally don’t want to be eliminated. This makes him either 3P or town with a death wish. I don’t anticipate in a micro if it’s a 2 scum game scum Dunn wanting to be eliminated D1. Dunn’s been around much too long for that.

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Hell I would be willing to venture if it’s not a 2 scum game you’re both 3P with a communication method of some kind like the first post indicates. But I would much rather figure out what game we’re in and if it’s a 3P heavy game come back to that later.

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So let me ask you this Nic, are you town?

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viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

If anyone cares this is why I think Dunn is town.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68714

If anyone cares this is why I think Dunn is town.

He seems a lot different to me, looking at his ISO.

2016 game

Are you town Dunn?

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Yes. So you believe, as a third party, I lied to Dunn about my Informed role?

I am thinking you’d both be third party to be precise because of the OP.

You could have lied sure, or have never said it to him in the hood, as you wouldn’t necessarily care about reads just eliminator eliminatee type deal or some other reason to bus.

I am still kinda kicking that theory around and the Mastina + G has a lot more behind it.

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Why didn’t you try to work with me earlier Dunn? I gave you lots of opportunities in the PT

I was responding to you in the pt.

Care to give your own summary?

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Yes. So you believe, as a third party, I lied to Dunn about my Informed role?

I am thinking you’d both be third party to be precise because of the OP.

You could have lied sure, or have never said it to him in the hood, as you wouldn’t necessarily care about reads just eliminator eliminatee type deal or some other reason to bus.

I am still kinda kicking that theory around and the Mastina + G has a lot more behind it.

I had to have said it to him because he was the one who revealed it. So why tell it to him?
I don’t know what those roles are.

You had to say you were in a hood to him? Pretty sure the mod did that.

Eliminator is lyncher (Sorry for the l word) it means they have a certain target they want to eliminate.
Eliminatee just wants to be eliminated. Think vengeful for town or jester for 3P.

Your reasoning here doesn’t really follow a town or scum mindset from what I see in most people, same with Dunn so I am just trying to figure out what you’re doing.

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Don’t tell me his role, does his role what he told you match what he said in thread? Yes or no don’t elaborate?

If the answer to the first question is yes, what is your read on Nic?

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@Math
Not the Neighbor part, the Informed part. Why lie and tell him I have mod-given info saying Dunn has a 90% chance of being town and 10% of mafia.

It is very unlikely that we have those roles because all the 3p are self-aligned, with the exception of 2. Would those two roles not have the “some mutuality in wincon”? Then in that case there is no scum analog at all. If you think my Mastina-Dunn theory is farfetched, this is worse.

@Dunn be patient.

There is a minor detail that doesn’t add up here. Well two, but one.

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Why didn’t you try to work with me earlier Dunn? I gave you lots of opportunities in the PT

I was responding to you in the pt.

Care to give your own summary?

We exchange greetings but don't otherwise talk in pre-game
Game starts, nic makes some awkward posts in the main thread
In the pt asks what the odds are we can trust each other
I respond saying random, and that he is slightly above average to be mafia
He claims his role
I question him about the role and he says the game might not have a standard setup
I bring up some math for his role and ask if it is revealed when he dies
He says there could be 4 town and 5 third party
I say that's not something that happens and that there probably aren't going to be 3rd parties in a micro, or only 1
Nic rapid fires 3 posts, one telling me to read the mods first post and saying that every player should have a special role, the next asks for my opinion on DoubtingThomas since I've played with them before and mentioned putting pressure on Gypyx, and says I should press him in public, and then makes another post pointing out mastina calling us scum-scum for interactions
I respond saying I've only playing with DoubtingThomas once and don't have an opinion on his posts, and that his public posts looks like he's trying to get into the game through interrogation
He asks me if I'm playing things close
I respond saying I'm just not posting often
He continues questioning me and I tell him I'm not talkative in pts as town
He asks me if he should think I'm town, and also accuses me of being a role that doesn't have the ability to vote
I respond by pointing to his own role and saying yes he should think I'm town
He then says I'm the compromise vote

@Nic Is this an accurate summary? In order?

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There’s two problems with that though.

If Nic can confirm that the summary is indeed how the hood went, then I can point them out.

If it is not, then Nic should correct the hood summary.

[MathBlade]

Alright then care to explain how you have a 90% chance of Dunn being town and a 10% chance of being scum, and then declaring every player should have a special role?
Then go onto theorizing this is a 3P game which if true would make Dunn lock town to you yet you push him as there would be a 0% chance of him being 3P.

I also disagree with everyone is special theory.

Source: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Informed

So which is it Nic? Is it 3P and Dunn is lock town or do you think this is a scum game?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Nic

For good measure until the whole
“I think it’s 3P but I am gonna push Dunn” gets explained.

[MathBlade]

And lastly I have never seen informed give percentages.

[MathBlade]

Oh good lord. I am town, but not vanilla. The sentences inspiring the roles cause me to doubt anyone is vanilla, or just a plain goon. That is all.

If you disagree I don’t care. I could be wrong, I was just speculating to Dunn.

My role does say 10% mafia. But I assumed that actually means non-town. I can ask for clarification, but that was always my assumption. Pretty sure I’ve even said it before.

Why didn’t you think to ask for clarification before pushing Dunn scum?

Wouldn’t town you be concerned and be able to do “Hey there’s literally no chance this guy is 3P?”. If it says mafia and it’s from the mod why would you assume it included something else?

[MathBlade]

My role does say 10% mafia. But I assumed that actually means non-town.

I'm pretty sure 90% town and 10% mafia means I have a 0% chance to be a third party, actually...

Exactly.

So the order in the hood makes no sense.
If he suspects you as 3P town!Nic shouldn’t push you if he is informed the way he is.

How serious was that 3P theory Nic had?

[MathBlade]

This does not make sense and I gotta go to bed. I may not be the worlds greatest mathematician but I know 0 when I see it means nothing.

Someone double check me overnight.

[MathBlade]

I assumed I wouldn’t be given information about the setup to that extent. You make a fair point, I guess I made a mistake. I’m not a perfect player. I did consider asking, but I just never have. I got nothing for ya.

Okay then if you think it’s 3P unvote Dunn.

If you think it’s a scum game then why Dunn? And who with?

If you’re town (and that’s a HUGE if in my book) you need to start from what the mod has told you.

[MathBlade]

The earlier clarification:

@Akarin
My role says 90% town and 10% mafia. I have assumed that mafia could mean any non-town, given the possible setups, but the wording of the role pm gives no further clarification.

Where does Nic assume 3rd Party game before this recent exchange after Math joins the game? I can't find it.

Anyway, Nic reads like he's kind of been on tilt about the Dunn wagon collapsing today, and the Mastina-Dunn thing was originally a scum assumption on Nic's part I believe.

Also, Nic, did you figure out which Isis-sentence your role is linked to?

It’s in the summary of the hood that I asked Dunn about.
Then I asked Nico to correct any mistakes before hopping down that wagon.
He said there were minor inconsistencies but did not deny he made the 3P suggestion in Dunn+Nic’s hood.

[MathBlade]

@Math

He says there could be 4 town and 5 third party

Is this what you mean?

Correct.

So if he says that is a possibility, that doesn’t jive with voting Dunn.
That’s why I am trying to get him to take a stand and show which way his reads are.

Because if we can eliminate a 3P we in essence townfirm Dunn, if Nic is to be believed.

[MathBlade]

Mainly I think if we can flip a 3P we gain a townfirm in Dunn.
But if there is a scum, then Dunn is conf town to us more than likely at least more so than other players,
Or nic + Dunn could be running a gambit.

But by forcing Nic’s hand into picking a decision we can get a read on Nic as well as potentially get a town!firm in Dunn.

[MathBlade]

IMO you're being crazy here, MathBlade.

That idea is in the setup post of the game, I was thinking about it a lot in early game too. Yes Nic should have clarified with schadd, but that's not an assumption that it's a 3rd party setup, it's him bringing it up as a possibility.

You're treating something very very thin like it's an open-and-shut case and it's just not.

@Nic I think I have. You said you made a mistake. I am giving you a chance to think through and see if you reach the same conclusions knowing that you made a mistake before.

Because based on who I am I think what you’re claiming is while possible very very unlikely.

[MathBlade]

This isn’t outright tunnels level of “eliminate Nic now”

But this is you need to re-evaluate assumptions Nic for you to have credibility.

And if you aren’t willing to do that then we have issues.

So state it plainly: Is it your opinion it is a 3P game or a scum game?

[MathBlade]

@Math

I'm not disagreeing about what you're saying about town confirming Dunn, I'm just arguing that I don't see not seeing that as evidence of Nic being scum.

I am torn about it on Nic being scum.

However, what I am not torn about it, is that if he is town, he has admitted a mistake and reset.

If he resets and still gets Dunn scum then he’ll have a better case and rebuild his credibility.

Right now, based on what is in thread his theories either are not logically sound and/or I break them by existing.

Therefore I am asking him to reset and come back and my vote is on him until he does or if it needs to be back on Mastina or G for an elimination.

[MathBlade]

We know from the setup that daytalk is enabled everywhere, and scum always share a PT anyway. So why can't Dunn and I just be lying about the neighborhood, and actually just be buddies?

Dude you literally paraphrased your PT--are you telling me you think that paraphrase is in any way even remotely realistically fakeable?

I don't mean, "yes, in theory, it is theoretically possible to fake a neighborhood pt conversation like this".

I mean in practice, do you think YOU, with your overall knowledge about you and Dunnstral, without an actual neighborhood PT, are capable of having faked this, thought it was a good idea, and gone through with it? To have pulled an elaborate ruse?

Because if a player said "Dunnstral and NicCage are clearly faking a PT conversation and are actually scumbuddies".

I'd be tempted to lynch that player on the spot for pushing an obvious paranoia theory that blatantly violates occam's razor. Because the simplest, and most likely, explanation, is that the neighborhood is real. schadd_ likes to have neighborhoods in his games, and he would never make a scum-scum neighborhood, therefore the claim of one is very very very likely to be true, especially with the play to back it up.

I originally thought that the Nic-Dunnstral interactions reeked of scum-scum since your inthread treatment of each other reeked of being forced and faked--but you being in a neighborhood with Dunnstral provides the perfect explanation for that and turns it into a situation that makes total sense as being from town/"town" (if you're 3p).

Ergo.

You're not scum.

You're either town, or a 3p, but if you're a 3p you're effectively town anyway and thus, still town, and thus, still not scum, and thus, not a good elimination today or ever.

And of course, the stated motive for the partial read change is based on a revelation of the new setup, not on reads.

Well obviously?
When I have made reads based off of no/wrong information, then when I get information that gives new context to the situation, including your neighborhood claim and the possibility of a 4-5 game, then that means the reads need to be updated to account for the new information.

And by the new information, Dunnstral remains scum but you become, instead of a scumbuddy with forced interactions with him, town (I feel like I should just say 'town' even though it'd be more accurate to say "town or benevolent 3p which is basically town") whose interactions with him were due to you having a neighborhood with him.

Like.
I was fucking right.
I said I thought your interactions with Dunnstral were faked and reeked of scum-scum.
They were, kinda sorta, 'faked'--not really, but they were due to you actually having a PT with Dunnstral.
But I had no way of knowing that your topic with Dunnstral wasn't a scum topic until you claimed it, did I?

Was it Mathblade himself who testified in MBOS 10 that masons look like scum? Someone did that game, at least, and a similar principle applies here for a neighborhood. Neighborhoods that're unclaimed can look like scumbuddies, until the neighborhood is revealed and that information puts to light that they are in fact, not scumbuddies, but neighbors who did have info about one another.

Uhm, Mastina if Nic is 3P then he should be eliminated as 3Ps would be the only threat to town, based on the OP.

How? Are you okay? Like seriously.

[MathBlade]

Dunn is playing like someone who wants to get eliminated. For awhile I have thought it is most likely that he is a third party, with some kind of restriction on his play. I thought that because I didn't think scum would play like this. This lurking is far too much for just laying low, anyone ought to see that it would attract suspicion, and that the day would end with a wagon on them.

Thanks Dunn.

Yay speed reads.

@Nic

Explain how you thought Dunn could be 3P with a 90% town 10%mafia?

[MathBlade]

akarin's just voting whoever the fuck they want, yeah?

Yes, but I think that it's indicative of not-scum. (Again, for lack of better terminology and for the sake of simplicity, I'll just call any not-scum 'town' even though there is obviously always the chance of 3p. NicCage is thus, town, and I am going to say Akarin is as well.)

Akarin was one of the strongest earlier pushes of Dunnstral, and is now all over the place.
I think that's indicative of town who hasn't been able to lock the game down, because everything Akarin is doing feels sincere and genuine and I can see the thought progression even though I feel like Akarin going from pushing Dunnstral to defending him was a mistake.

This is gonna require an explanation.

Assume Nic is truthtelling, then Dunn has at best a 10% chance at group scum and 0% at 3P.
Assume Nic is lying, eliminate Nic, problem solved.

In no world do we ever eliminate Dunn here.

[MathBlade]

@Math
Without knowing if there are 3rd parties, my read on Dunn takes precedence. I haven’t changed anyone’s mind on him, but no one has changed mine. If it’s impossible for him to be 3rd party so be it. I asked for clarification, we will find out what it really tells me.

I don’t care what your role is. I have done everything I possibly can to be open and honest and if that’s the mistake that killed me then I accept that. Everyone will know I was telling the truth at least.

You’re not interested in resetting or hunting?

Assume Dunn is town, who is scum?

[MathBlade]

Newb or scum. Tbd which

My initial impression was in fact scum, but DoubtingThomas's push on Gypyx, while I disagreed with it, looked sincere.

However, I'm reassessing that and thinking it might be possible to be scum again (need to double-check DoubtingThomas's Dunnstral stance), with the sincere push being due to believing that there's 3ps in the game that can be genuinely scumhunted while being scum.

there will either be 7 town and 2 mafia, or 4 town pitted against 5 self-aligned opposing factions,

two of which have some mutuality in wincon and will be able to communicate via private thread

.
This reads like a 5 self aligned rather than 7 town 2 mafia. Would love to be surprised though.

Emphasis added. There cannot be five 3ps with none of them being scum, because per schadd_, if the game is 4-5, then at least two of the 5 are a scumteam, with the remaining 3 being...whatever the fuck they'd be. (So it'd be more accurately represented as 4-2-x-x-x, but I've been saying 4-5 for the sake of simplicity even though that's not quite accurate, because the game does have two scum minimum, guaranteed, due to them having a mutual wincon and pt. Yaknow. The powers of a scum faction.)

Assuming I buy your argument the claims are inverse. And I cannot say why without being proscum/neut.

Well the only way I can explain why I think it's a potential town indicator for Ari is to explain what about it I think is town--which would allow Ari to fake it if he's not town.

Do you want me to explain what I saw in there as town or wait for more Ari posts? Because my preference is the latter, but if you insist on seeing my logic, I'll do the former if you ask me to.

No. I think we see the same things and reach different conclusions.

If you’re town you know highlighting what I see is bad there.

I would rather leave it as a disagreement.

[MathBlade]

@Math
Dude it’s 3am.

Your slot and Mastina are my independent best guesses. Maybe TGP, but I actually started to think they were town with their behavior around the deadline. Gypyx maybe, I don’t townread them.

Dude I legit don’t know your timezone as it’s literally not displayed to me.
Then vote someone who you think could be scum.
I literally give 0 fucks if it’s me, but we’re sure as hell not eliminating Dunn if I have anything to say about it.

[MathBlade]

Give me something to work with if you’re town Nic.

[MathBlade]

Also, Nic, did you figure out which Isis-sentence your role is linked to?

For the record on my part.
I can't figure it out because there's too many candidates.

• My cats' eye colors were virtually the same at birth, but diverged during their adolescence and became the best way to tell them apart.
  
• Once in Washington Square Park in NYC, I came across a man making music with empty containers, and I really liked it.
  
• It seems inherently impossible to decide the appropriate amount of time to wait at midnight to assume that a traffic light is stuck on red and it is okay to ignore it.
  
• Dandelions are exciting because you can see their reproductive strategy so clearly.
  
• There should have been more than one season of Firefly.
  
• Drink lots of water every chance you get.
  
• Playing piano by memory and by reading sheet music are satisfying each in different ways.

Because I could see it as being any of these. (Tho given the nature of my role, if I had to guess, it might be Firefly?)

Damn it mastina pants.

New theory is the scum is in Nic/Dunn (but only with Nic)/and G

[MathBlade]

This of course completely goes by the wayside if Dunn is 3P.

If Dunn is 3P elim the crap out of Nic

[MathBlade]

I feel like I am missing a lot there:

Both you and A say that Nic is unlikely to be scum to rather dramatic levels. A earlier and you now.
I don’t see how.
Nic is likely lying about his informed role.
Because of who I am I know the theories he pitched to Dunn are complete BS.
We know at minimum he made a mistake, one of which he seems to not want to confront.
He also claimed PR (didn’t say what) in addition to the flawed informed.

Dunn could be scum, but imho only if Nic is.
If Nic is town, I don’t see Dunn scum here.

[MathBlade]

The problem I have is that in effect, you have what amounts to very close to an innocent on Dunn.
If it is 3P, then it is a 100% innocent on Dunn.
If it is a mafia game, then and only then should Dunn be considered.

Yes, I can see some of the arguments on paper. They seem reasonable. But you’re literally disregarding your own role to make them if it is true. I, having played with Dunn a lot, know a couple reasons he may play like this. Again, I am not saying he is not scum 100% full stop. What I am saying is that if I take you at your word, Dunn cannot be the elimination.

Despite this and knowing you made a mistake, you’re still full boar on Dunn, by definition is a tunnel. Without the hood to see why, it makes little strategic sense to be on what is very likely a miselimination based on your role. Especially as that’s usually not how informed works.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town.

But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

This here for example either indicates you’re lying or in one hell of a tunnel.

“Because there is no complicating factor of 3P”. If you’re informed that 3P can’t exist at all in the game, then you’d literally have a very small chance of being right. You didn’t do as I asked and stop and reevaluate. It’s okay if it came up Dunn after but I can tell you didn’t.

[MathBlade]

Oh good lord. I am town, but not vanilla. The sentences inspiring the roles cause me to doubt anyone is vanilla, or just a plain goon. That is all.

If you disagree I don’t care. I could be wrong, I was just speculating to Dunn.

My role does say 10% mafia. But I assumed that actually means non-town. I can ask for clarification, but that was always my assumption. Pretty sure I’ve even said it before.

This here I really doubt. You said you’re town but not vanilla. This is plainly true from your Informed claim and your neighbor claim. This tells me Town Informed Neighbor is leaving something off. You then don’t have another power here and therefore wouldn’t imho write this sentence. This is out of place if true.

“Hey I am already claimed but let me state it in a different way to see if Math shuts up.”

You said you don’t care if I disagree, well I do, rather heavily.

[MathBlade]

Have you ever heard the phrase town cares about probability while scum cares about possibility?

[MathBlade]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... babilities

It’s very possible that you’re right.
It’s just not very probable.

You’ve either been proven to not follow mechanics, you’re actively attempting to poison the well against any VT claims, and are actively trying to shoehorn the game down one pathway. At a minimum you’re tunneled town. And that’s if I put you in the best light possible. I just don’t see it. It’s much simpler to say that you are scum who knows Dunn is town or is bussing Dunn for credit. Occam’s Razor. You’re asking me to swallow a lot here.

[MathBlade]

IMO you're being crazy here, MathBlade.

For the record.

This is the sort of crazy I think comes from a town-Mathblade.

It's not an absolute read (I did think Mathblade's crazy last game was town for quite a long time when it was him being scum trying to desperately further his wincon, which is what keeps it from being absolute), but it is still a pretty damn strong read, in that I don't think this is desperate-scum-Mathblade; I think this is genuinely town Mathblade, albeit one whose stances overlap partially with mine yet by and large diverge from mine in ways that I feel we can potentially sort and end up getting closer to being on the same page due to that partial overlap in spite of strong divergence.

Basically.

I feel like, while 3ps could be any number of people, in either 7-2 or 4 town, there's a large number of players that are town or "town".
You, Mathblade, TGP, Gypyx, and NicCage all come to mind.
Which leaves a small pool for scum, given this is a micro.
One which I think is {Dunnstral, DoubtingThomas} probably, with an ouside chance of SKYEscrapers (who in the 4 town scenario would be second only to NicCage in toping my 'probably benevolent 3p list').

Take this post from Mastina for example.
On the surface it looks okay, but then Mastina doesn’t do a deep dive of questioning that assumption that she is known for:

Assume Nic is 3P and all prior statements are true. There is then no chance Nic thinks Dunn is scum, he’d be thinking 3P. But then if we take him at his word and that he asked Schadd there is 0% chance of Dunn 3P.

So Nic truthtelling requires Nic town.
If Nic is lying then he is scum and/or 3P.

[MathBlade]

If Nic was 3P, he instantly unvotes Dunn, but despite being given multiple opportunities he hasn’t. So the only way Truthtelling Nic 3P works is if he is actively pushing someone he townreads.

This further narrows what is probable for Nic and the much simpler answer is that he is lying. That’s why I have been asking him to work towards who he thinks Dunn’s partner might me. Something to show he is hunting and he can’t do it.

[MathBlade]

@Nic

I'm absolutely not voting for Dunn today.

But I promise you, I'm not giving Dunn some permanent clear. If we flip a Mafia member, if we have 4 Town players dead in DDoLo, whatever, I swear I'm not giving him some permanent pass. But it doesn't make sense to me to Dastardly Deed him today, even if you disregard my townread of his response to the pressure. I'm reading everything you type though and I promise you it isn't just being ignored.

But like you, I'm not going to do some big homework exercise just because you asked me to here. I've thought about it, I actually agree on some of the earlier stuff, but I don't see this as being as problematic as you do in light of new information. I also don't think me trying to explain Dunn's behavior for him out loud is a productive idea in general right now. Anyway, just want to say that I'm not ignoring you even if I'm not going to vote the way you want me to today.

Maybe it'd be better to move on to talking about other stuff than MathBlade pushing you and you pushing Dunn.

I can agree with this if I can see some sort of hunting from Nic

To me, Occam’s razor is simply put, the simplest explanation is likely right.

If Nic hunts I have no problem backing off and reevaluating.

[MathBlade]

If Nic hunts I have no problem backing off and reevaluating.

What do you see as the difference between this standard you are applying to me, and the one I was applying to Dunn?

I see it as more of an exploration.

You said you’re not rereading fine. But you’re not taking what you’ve already read and trying to figure out more. It seems like it’s more of a strategy to eliminate Dunn versus a read. You’re saying you don’t “know” what to do. If you’re town, no town knows what to do. We just ask questions and try to figure it out.

I want to see you doing your best to figure out who is scum with Dunn if you’re not willing to reevaluate that read.

[MathBlade]

Nic, who are your top 4-5 town reads? Maybe approach it from the PoE angle.

This also works.

Give me something I can work with here. Show me you have reads, don’t tell me you do.

[MathBlade]

Math, I just meant that I think tunneling town is a simpler and more likely explanation.

Towns have been known to tunnel from time to time.

I am aware of that and I myself am prone to it.

That’s why I am listening to you who I townread and am trying to come up with something that mutually works.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Gypyx

Seems we agree here. I do not read them as town either. Akarin do you?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Gypyx

Seems we agree here. I do not read them as town either. Akarin do you?

Does that just come from PoE?

Somewhat. G’s play is horrible and I read them as scum almost no matter what.

It’s a matter of which scum. I read you as 3P who is pushing Dunn for your wincon currently, and if that read is true then G would also be 3P.

But if I am wrong and you are town, G could still be 3P or group scum.

[MathBlade]

Bizarre as either alignment generally means 3P if it’s an option.

My thoughts are Mastina, Nic, and G are all 3Ps.
That’s why Nic despite being told we weren’t eliminating Dunn didn’t immediately follow through on his promise and vote Mastina. He had no intention to. The earlier bit about masonry was shade, especially how Mastina misrepped what I said.

I just am trying to figure out why to see if I am right.

[MathBlade]

There is a tiny slim chance Mastina is town but that requires a lot of coincidences.

[MathBlade]

If I am right and this one is really moon logic, Dunn is also 3P but against Nic’s win con and he butchered the informed claim. But this world requires Nic 3P/ scum so I wouldn’t push it unless Nic flips 3P/scum

[MathBlade]

If Nic hunts I have no problem backing off and reevaluating.

What do you see as the difference between this standard you are applying to me, and the one I was applying to Dunn?

I see it as more of an exploration.

You said you’re not rereading fine. But you’re not taking what you’ve already read and trying to figure out more. It seems like it’s more of a strategy to eliminate Dunn versus a read. You’re saying you don’t “know” what to do. If you’re town, no town knows what to do. We just ask questions and try to figure it out.

I want to see you doing your best to figure out who is scum with Dunn if you’re not willing to reevaluate that read.

What I am asking is, what is the difference between threatening me with elimination if I don't scumhunt, and my constant poking into Dunn's motivations throughout the game? Yes I know you do not have the PT. But Dunn has corroborated the vast majority of it.

Are you suggesting that you really don't mean to follow through with voting me if I absolutely refuse to do anything?

The opposite. If you don’t hunt, my point is proven for me that you’re pushing Dunn as a strategy and not as a read and with that gone you don’t know what to do. I won’t have to push you as my case makes itself. I would still vote you but you can’t be town if you don’t hunt. If you refuse to pretend to be town, I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt you are. Right now I am. That can change if you don’t hunt.

[MathBlade]

Bizarre as either alignment generally means 3P if it’s an option.

I don't see how launching such a poor argument like Gypyx did is 3p indicative.

It’s PoE.

If it’s not a town argument, and not a scum argument, then it’s a 3P by default. His play doesn’t feel scum oriented except with maybe one or two people, but at the same time it doesn’t feel town.

[MathBlade]

The opposite. If you don’t hunt, my point is proven for me that you’re pushing Dunn as a strategy and not as a read and with that gone you don’t know what to do. I won’t have to push you as my case makes itself. I would still vote you but you can’t be town if you don’t hunt. If you refuse to pretend to be town, I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt you are. Right now I am. That can change if you don’t hunt.

Can you put into your own words the question you think I am asking you right now?

What the fuck do I do to convince Math I am hunting?

[MathBlade]

Bizarre as either alignment generally means 3P if it’s an option.

My thoughts are Mastina, Nic, and G are all 3Ps.

The thing is, I can't imagine what 3P wincon makes any sense for his pushing me at that time and doubling down on it after Tris defended me. That whole segment of game just doesn't seem like a scum plan to me no matter how I look at it.

Here's the start of what I'm talking about.

Will read that on my lunch break.

And regards to not being productive, I agree. I am merely answering the questions I was asked by Nic. Notice I do not ask any back. I am trying to work with you to chance the subject. This does not happen if Nic continues this.

[MathBlade]

The opposite. If you don’t hunt, my point is proven for me that you’re pushing Dunn as a strategy and not as a read and with that gone you don’t know what to do. I won’t have to push you as my case makes itself. I would still vote you but you can’t be town if you don’t hunt. If you refuse to pretend to be town, I refuse to give you the benefit of the doubt you are. Right now I am. That can change if you don’t hunt.

Can you put into your own words the question you think I am asking you right now?

What the fuck do I do to convince Math I am hunting?

No. Please be charitable to me. I'm not asking what hidden intentions are behind my question. I don't think you are understanding what I am getting at and I want you to at least grasp my point, even if you disagree with it.

That’s not the hidden intentions. I am taking your question literally. You’re asking me what the difference is between you pushing Dunn and now that you can’t how do you prove yourself town. What do you need to do so I see it? That’s in my opinion what you’re literally asking me and imho not a town mindset. Town just hunts. Scum or 3P care about perception.

[MathBlade]

Anyone who has played with me knows I am extremely literal.

I don’t do the hidden meanings crap and it creates problems sometimes.

I really would like to move on and read A’s argument over lunch.

Do you wish to continue this questioning?

[MathBlade]

Oh no. You misunderstand me. I am not pressuring you. I am telling everyone I don’t think you’re town. I am backing off as a favor to A. I don’t think you can hunt. I am giving you the chance to prove me wrong as I was asked to.

As a minimum you’re not listening to me when I tell you your setup spec is wrong. Your lack of hunting will prove my case for me that you’re not town. And it’s 100% not constructive to continue this, another point I agree. I look forward to being surprised.

Pedit agreed with that from A except how Mastina scum makes me more likely to be scum

[MathBlade]

Pedit agreed with that from A except how Mastina scum makes me more likely to be scum

Not what I said. I'm saying that Mastina being scum is almost a necessary condition for you being scum, IF she still townreads you after this exchange.

And for the record, I think these responses to Nic are hurting rather than helping. This continuing isn't as one-sided on Nic's side as you think. Those kind of responses are likely to antagonize people.

Awesome. Then Nic can stop asking me shit like that and I can review your link at lunch then?

Because if he asks me shit and misreps it I will respond. If it pisses people off but they see what I am doing I am a okay with that.

[MathBlade]

dunn's defense of niccage lacks critical t hinking and suspicion that a town player should have naturally in the game. he's prob scum here

Scum scum or 3P scum? Which do you think?

[MathBlade]

And before you yell that’s a triviality it’s really not.

Because I have a feeling if Mastina isn’t 3P there is a deep 3P in redacted. But I kinda don’t wanna share that theory yet.

[MathBlade]

So the real question is, if we get a Mafia flip rather than a 3rd party flip, is this a townslip for Gypyx?

I'm kind of leaning yes.

Akarin / nic might be the team

Akarin, while you're here, why did you assume 2 scum vs 7 town?

I can definitely see this as possible. But more that Akarin +Nic would be scum 3P not scum scum.

But this only works if that is indeed a townslip from G and some of G’s other play has been weird but they could be new.

[MathBlade]

Okay, the only way I see this move making sense for teamscum!Gypyx is if he's partners with Dunn and panicked about how little resistance there might be to a Dunn Dastardly Deed. Otherwise it just seems too weird to be scum.

Why did you not consider Nic + Dunn a possibility?

[MathBlade]

I could see an Akarin as the scum lead and she is guiding Nic on trying to reinforce a two man scum team with different clues, but in reality them being a scum 3P team together. Akarin strikes me as familiar but I can’t place it where I know her yet.

[MathBlade]

Then they realize they want to/have to get rid of Dunn so they push him here. This seems way too choreographed to be natural from Nic + Dunn just trying to find the puppet master

[MathBlade]

Who should I vote for?

don't like this at all

Give me 5 good reasons why

Someone's awful spicy for having nothing but Mastina sheep and PoE

like, what? PoE is one of the strongest town tools out there and solves many a game, but... go off i guess
this, plus nic's general posting, is just unproductive and inflammatory shitposting

VOTE: Dunnstral

I am on board for this. I see little in the way of productive gameplay. After his very early suspicion on me, I was expecting a different trajectory than what has emerged. All I see is a couple comments and him asking questions primarily when he is the target of someone else's reads. No votes and no reads of his own.

Yet he is around, since he's responding. And active elsewhere on the site too.

mastina thinks I'm scum why?

Because the you-Nic interactions scream scum-scum and your play is highly lackluster; I'd like to think I know you as a player well enough to reliably get a read on when you're town and this game I'm not seeing the town at all.

I usually can see you as town from your first three or so posts at latest, generally speaking.

You've more than that and those townvibes are nonexistent.

Mastina, I am curious about Dunnstral's usual play, do you think you could characterize it further?


Additionally, @DoubtingThomas:
You indicated that you played with Dunnstral before earlier, if I remember correctly. What's your opinion on his play?

so, let me get this straight. mastina is explaining a scumread on dunnstral based, largely, on her reading of the interactions between you two as S/S, and yet you completely ignore the

post you quoted

and simply vote dunnstral with mediocre reasons at best, and ask mastina to explain dunn further
like this screams "bussing your scumpartner for towncred" and it's terrible

It’s terrible yes, but if Mastina is town and if Nic is scum this reads more like a “Dunn is a different alignment scum”.

A caught on to what I was doing in solidifying the informed claim and therefore won’t vote Dunn because if Dunn flips 3P (but not scum) as I suspect if he is scum he is 3P not group scum then A has to vote Nic tomorrow.

So in short I don’t feel bad about a Dunn flip but if my other theory is right and Dunn is town then we’ve done nothing towards Nic’s informed claim which reeks of BS. But if he flips red scum I will gladly do the forum equivalent of stick a sock in my mouth and shut the f up.

[MathBlade]

Who should I vote for?

Why did you ask this?

Because I wanted somebody to suggest me someone to vote for

Because I wanted somebody to suggest me someone to vote for

OK, vote for Akarin

Why should I?

this entire interaction causes me physical pain
niccage asking for someone to vote for screams newbscum to me, and his response to dunnstral asking why is weird, ESPECIALLY since he later calls dunnstral out for... ironically, not having reads.

Yup. Newb 3P. He literally asked me how the fuck do I townread him?

Gonna shut up now. Let others respond.

[MathBlade]

Okay, the only way I see this move making sense for teamscum!Gypyx is if he's partners with Dunn and panicked about how little resistance there might be to a Dunn Dastardly Deed. Otherwise it just seems too weird to be scum.

Why did you not consider Nic + Dunn a possibility?

Why did I not consider a Gypyx + Nic + Dunn scumteam in a 9 player game?

Yes. 5 3P is valid they could all be scum.

[MathBlade]

Okay, the only way I see this move making sense for teamscum!Gypyx is if he's partners with Dunn and panicked about how little resistance there might be to a Dunn Dastardly Deed. Otherwise it just seems too weird to be scum.

Why did you not consider Nic + Dunn a possibility?

Why did I not consider a Gypyx + Nic + Dunn scumteam in a 9 player game?

Yes. 5 3P is valid they could all be scum.

certainly posts like this wehre I think 3p's are just trying super hard to hide the fact that they are 3p. Some others who seem to be responsible for this fallacy (e.g. dunnstral and nic) If I were a town, and if I am in a neighborhood with someone else who is saying stuff like "I have info that you are 10% chance of being scum! and especially now that nic pointed out there's a chance that the game is not 2 scum/7 town, my first guess is to be very very extra wary of the other person in my neighborhood. neighborhood just doesn't seem that plausible in a 9 player game with 2 scums.

or maybe dunn might be the actual scum in 2s/7t game so he's confbiasing himself? idk

I don’t know either. And with Dunn’s lack of effort he is a safe elimination, but I think Nic or A are the better plays. If Dunn flips 3P we do indeed have a conf scum in Nic but I don’t know if I am comfortable eliminating a probable inno.

[MathBlade]

killing dunn is probably a necessity at this point regardless of his alignment. we need information there. him or niccage.

In that I agree.

[MathBlade]

Okay, the only way I see this move making sense for teamscum!Gypyx is if he's partners with Dunn and panicked about how little resistance there might be to a Dunn Dastardly Deed. Otherwise it just seems too weird to be scum.

Why did you not consider Nic + Dunn a possibility?

Why did I not consider a Gypyx + Nic + Dunn scumteam in a 9 player game?

Yes. 5 3P is valid they could all be scum.

Because if they all have different wincons they aren't a team.

How does that give Gypyx a scum (or scummy 3P) motive for the push I was talking about?

This is correct, but if I am right there are 5 3P. Eliminating all the 3P means we win no matter what. It’s up to the 3Ps to townside if they aren’t a threat to us. Otherwise getting rid of them all works for me.

[MathBlade]

@Math: So do you think Gypyx is more towny from the section of game I was pointing at?

If not, why do you think he plays that way as 3P or scum, what's the agenda?

I do.

I think that some of his posts are TWTBAW and if G is scum they make more sense as a 3P not a scum scum.

[MathBlade]

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

^^ From the OP best you’ll get on mobile.

If all the 3Ps are dead if it is a 3P game we win by default.
If it’s a scum game when all the scum are dead.

[MathBlade]

Instead of telling us who you won’t eliminate A, tell us who you will eliminate?

I do agree with G consolidation needs to happen.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox
would also be okay with me

Okay why? If Mastina is town, I’d agree with her TGP read.

[MathBlade]

Could anyone summarize me the case on nic?

What does TWTBAW mean?

Pedit : I doubt TGP is happening today akarin

Too wolfie to be a wolf.

The case on Nic from my POV is
1) He didn’t take into account 3P when examining his informed claim.
2) His informed claim with a percent, is very out of character for MS. I’ve been here a loooong time and never seen it.
3) He considered Dunn to be a possible 3P despite his claim being confirmed as not being possible
4) He didn’t revise or unvote or hunt anywhere else.


^^ those are my main points.

[MathBlade]

If there are 3rd parties, then there aren't any "Mafia."

I don't think anyone is arguing we shouldn't eliminate 3rd parties.

Except you’re betraying your own argument with Gypsy when you say that.

You said earlier that there were scum if it’s a 3P game, specifically the two in the hood.

Do I have to go back and quote you?

Oh and hero Vig to me is you and Nic no questions asked.

[MathBlade]

Akarin / nic might be the team

Akarin, while you're here, why did you assume 2 scum vs 7 town?

Because it literally says that in the setup.

5 3rd parties of which 2 of them share a wincon and a PT is a 2-player scumteam. But we know which it is as soon as we get a non-town flip.

This here. Just in case you forgot.

It’s literally in the part you asked me to read.

[MathBlade]

Pedit : I doubt TGP is happening today akarin

I doubt it too. Not actually sure why though.

Why vote there then?

To see what happens, and because it was the way of answering Math's question that most amused me.

I'll be around to move it elsewhere.

So it’s a non answer answer and you’re hoping not to solve the Dunn/Nic issue.

[MathBlade]

If by "hoping not to solve" you mean I think they're TvT as I've said multiple times?

Explain it like I am 5.

[MathBlade]

Fair warning: am very heavily groggy from having both not slept well last night, not gotten enough sleep, but also having gotten too much sleep, all at once.

Still tho.

Deadline being near means I need to be here in spite of how I'd prefer to not be.

Have you ever heard the phrase town cares about probability while scum cares about possibility?

For the record, Math.

I do admit.
When it comes to Dunn/Nic.
There is a dilemma.

I agree with you that Nic's claim is heavily suspect. 90% town 10% scum as an informed role doesn't make sense, especially not as a town role.
Nic's handling of it is bizarre and the number of times he's had to clarify and update the claim is also weird and worrying. Overall, there's a fairly large amount of evidence suggesting his claim is fake.

And in the world where it, somehow, is not fake, then by 90% probability versus 10% possibility, Dunnstral would be disproportionately likely to be town.

So yes. I live in a world where I don't trust Nic's claim, but if I were to, then Dunnstral should logically have a much higher chance of being town.

The problem is, by play all the facts overwhelmingly say that Nic is town-or-3p here, and that Dunnstral is scum here.
Dunnstral is not really scumhunting; he is lurking by and large. He's not contributing and he's not giving off townvibes at all.
He radiates the vibe of scum godfather, in being cheeky scum that knows he's obviously scum but is getting away with being obviously scum due to a "clear" on him.

His play literally fits that to a T.

And NicCage's play doesn't look like scum.
There is genuine scumhunting from him.
His takes look hard to fake, if not impossible. To be scum, he'd need to fake town-paranoia of me-Dunn as a team, fake town-paranoia of Dunnstral, and fake a push on Dunnstral made from scumhunting; basically, for him to be scum goes into beyond-master-level-scum-performances. I don't think he can be scum faking it, and I don't think scum thinking there's 3ps in here makes the claim Nic did and is able to fake the things he did.

Which is to say.

I know that by mechanics, NicCage's claim makes him most likely either scum or 3p...but by play he is very overwhelmingly town, to the point where I can't see how he plays this way as scum. I can't see it as scum. I can very very very easily see Nic's play as 3p, but I can't see it, from play, as being scum.

I know that by mechanics, if you trust NicCage's claim to be true, Dunnstral is most likely town...but by play he is very overwhelmingly acting like callous scum that doesn't give a damn due to being cocky that the Nic claim will protect him.

Dunnstral is not acting like an IC, like town who knows they are conftown and is using that to push leverage on things.
Dunnstral is acting like a Godfather, like scum who know they are being falsely 'cleared' and is using that to justify not putting any semblance of so much as pretending to be protown.

For me, what seems like the simplest and most likely explanation is that Nic is a 3p and Dunnstral is just scum, since it's the best way I can think of to reconcile the mechanical information with the play based information. If Nic is a 3p whose claim isn't 100% accurate, then the information on Dunnstral being 90% town isn't accurate.

In the scenario that Nic is a 3p and Dunnstral is scum, Nic's claim being suspect makes sense (because he's 3p), and his information not being accurate makes sense, and him looking overwhelmingly town by play makes sense (because as a 3p, he's not scum), and Dunnstral looking overwhelmingly scum by play makes sense (because as a presumable scum, him exploiting a 3p makes sense).

But that's the only scenario in which the mechanical reads and the play-based reads both make sense together.

In all other worlds, they clash with one being wrong.
If Nic is not a 3p, then either the mechanical suspicions are wrong (and he is somehow legitimately town in spite of the whack roleclaim) or the play read is wrong (and he has somehow faked this play as scum).
If Nic's information is real, then either the mechanical probability is wrong (and Dunnstral is the 10% scum), or the play read is wrong (and Dunnstral, in spite of overwhelmingly looking like scum, is somehow town).

So basically, there's three worlds to consider.
Mechanics-wrong; play-wrong; neither wrong, with Nic as 3p but with a bogus claim and Dunn as scum.

Do you see where I'm coming from here?

I do.

That’s why I much prefer eliminating Nic here. He’s not a cop and if you remove play he’s the most likely liar. Think of it like me. I have gotten away with some absolutely ridiculous claims because I get so well townread.

Dunn I agree also is scummy by play having not responded much here instead only feeding my arguments. That’s why it’s not a huge loss if he goes, but I am a huge proponent of eliminate the liar and see how it goes.

[MathBlade]

Although minor nitpick I haven’t seen hunting from Nic. Just tunneling.

[MathBlade]

@mastina
Regarding the first paragraph
No he cannot.
Nic himself specifically confirmed 90% 10% mafia 0% 3P.

He literally cannot he 3P and think Dunn is scum 3P.

[MathBlade]

@mastina
Regarding the first paragraph
No he cannot.
Nic himself specifically confirmed 90% 10% mafia 0% 3P.

He literally cannot he 3P and think Dunn is scum 3P.

You keep arguing about what he can

think

like you assume it's impossible for him to have made a mistake.

Why does 3P Nic clarify his role the way he did?

Oh I agree he could have made a mistake.

Just he can’t be truthtelling AND 3P is my point. Otherwise there is no way in his eyes for Dunn to be scum no matter how much he believes so and he’s unvote.

Mastina was theorizing truthtelling 3P who also believes Dunn is 3P.

My response is, no he’d have to be lying 3P who thought Dunn was also scum.

The only way Nic is truthtelling is if he is town.

[MathBlade]

Mastina lmao that’s wordy as fuck and I have been on that page for a while. Yes, a 3P can townside a la your Titus hood did. However the main problem is that here we know that either scum or 3P are the only threats.

Therefore claiming one of those means more than likely not I want to eliminate them.

[MathBlade]

Yes, I think he's town too!

I'm glad we could all come together on this!

Oh no, we haven’t.

I think he’s a liar.

I just listed the only way he is town.

[MathBlade]

I know, but your logic is exactly my argument except I think he's town.

I do not undestrand why the heck 3P Nic does most of what he's done this game. Or Mafia Nic for that matter.

See? That’s the exact dilemma I put people in when I am scum.

Instead you have to remove yourself from what you want to be true and what strategy you’d do, and instead what is actually happening. What are the facts?

[MathBlade]

Like who fake claims to their neighbor that they have a 90% chance of being town and a 10% chance of being scum, then tunnels that neighbor, then repeatedly clarifies that their info rules out that neighbor being a 3rd party in a game with a mod-declared chance of there being 3rd parties and no "Mafia."

He could have lied.

Actually no, he couldn’t.

Dunn outed him as saying it in the hood.

If he contradicted Dunn he gets eliminated faster than anything.

His play doesn’t even line up with his posting in thread.

[MathBlade]

I pushed Nic and Dunn specifically for a reason and it’s why I asked Dunn then Nic for the summary.

If he lies, then it’s a confirmed 1v1 and both likely end up dead.

The only option for him was to agree with Dunn as to the order.

Which then demonstrated his play in the 200s range makes no sense for a town player.

[MathBlade]

He couldn't have said "oops, it actually says 90% chance of being town-aligned" and I just interpreted that as 10% Mafia" or something?

He said something along those lines here in thread.

If 3P however he’d then be FORCED into unvoting Dunn as he’d have a clear understanding that Dunn would have to be lock town by claim.
If town, then he’d be much more interested in seeing a flip outside of Dunn having been reminded 3P is a thing.

Instead he barely answers the question then tries to push me.

That’s not how town works. At all. He reeks of OMGUS.

[MathBlade]

Why didn’t you try to work with me earlier Dunn? I gave you lots of opportunities in the PT

I was responding to you in the pt.

Care to give your own summary?

We exchange greetings but don't otherwise talk in pre-game
Game starts, nic makes some awkward posts in the main thread
In the pt asks what the odds are we can trust each other
I respond saying random, and that he is slightly above average to be mafia
He claims his role
I question him about the role and he says the game might not have a standard setup
I bring up some math for his role and ask if it is revealed when he dies
He says there could be 4 town and 5 third party
I say that's not something that happens and that there probably aren't going to be 3rd parties in a micro, or only 1
Nic rapid fires 3 posts, one telling me to read the mods first post and saying that every player should have a special role, the next asks for my opinion on DoubtingThomas since I've played with them before and mentioned putting pressure on Gypyx, and says I should press him in public, and then makes another post pointing out mastina calling us scum-scum for interactions
I respond saying I've only playing with DoubtingThomas once and don't have an opinion on his posts, and that his public posts looks like he's trying to get into the game through interrogation
He asks me if I'm playing things close
I respond saying I'm just not posting often
He continues questioning me and I tell him I'm not talkative in pts as town
He asks me if he should think I'm town, and also accuses me of being a role that doesn't have the ability to vote
I respond by pointing to his own role and saying yes he should think I'm town
He then says I'm the compromise vote

@Akarin Compare this to 273.

[MathBlade]

At the outset of the game he was 90% town and 10% scum for me.

This is his role claim, by the way.

We're in a neighborhood together; he's claiming that he was told that I only have a 10% chance of being scum.

But now, if I were to put money on it, I'd say he's a third party.

Based on what? Lowposting?

@Akarin

No. Dunn explicitly said this was his role claim. At the outset, can mean literally a post at the start of the game. It’s not a crumb like < redacted > .

[MathBlade]

If town, then he’d be much more interested in seeing a flip outside of Dunn having been reminded 3P is a thing.

So your argument is that town don't tunnel and get invested in their reads more than makes probabilistic sense. Got it.

Lmao that is a misrep. Town can and do tunnel.

They just generally tunnel while keeping their role in mind, ala Mastina in the Serenity game. As scum I kept her focused on the mechanics to keep wanting April while telling her she was wrong.

Here if Nic was tunneling town I would expect him to behave much differently.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Nic

Yup I have heard enough back to Nic. G is prob town.

[MathBlade]

If town, then he’d be much more interested in seeing a flip outside of Dunn having been reminded 3P is a thing.

So your argument is that town don't tunnel and get invested in their reads more than makes probabilistic sense. Got it.

Lmao that is a misrep. Town can and do tunnel.

They just generally tunnel while keeping their role in mind, ala Mastina in the Serenity game. As scum I kept her focused on the mechanics to keep wanting April while telling her she was wrong.

Here if Nic was tunneling town I would expect him to behave much differently.

I mean King’s Commander game * rip

[MathBlade]

@Math

Who other than Mastina do you think has played with you the most? (Including Ari or Tris in particular rather than just the hydra in general)?

Lmao uhm I have played here for almost 7 years that’s a list that’s way too f’in long. Let’s go with Ari as the second most and yes it is concerning but it’s not but it is.

I can’t say why but I am not interested due to an early game post and I don’t think Mastina should be unless we are getting into Shadowrun levels of scum.

[MathBlade]

The only way I see Sky as scum is 3P if it matters to you Mastina.

[MathBlade]

you win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
^^ From the OP best you’ll get on mobile.
If all the 3Ps are dead if it is a 3P game we win by default.
If it’s a scum game when all the scum are dead.

Math if the game is 4 town with five nontown, then the town has a minority on D1 and likely for the whole game.

Therefore, if the game is 4 town and five nontown, the vast majority of the nontown

must

be pro-town--think like how MBOS10 had two, separate, 3ps that were heavily protown.

This game needs to have that. There needs to be town-friendly 3ps if the game has only four town.

Therefore, trying to eliminate 3ps isn't productive; we should be trying to eliminate scum.

And I have very strong reason to believe that even if the game is 4 town 5 nontown, the game has a scum faction.
Because

I have

very

strong reasons to believe there is an antitown faction with the ability to nightkill

.

I agree with everything you have said.

And that’s why if it is a 3Ps game a 3P would have to be a killer.

That is why 3P claims have an extremely high bar if they exist.

[MathBlade]

If there are 3rd parties, then there aren't any "Mafia."

Where does schadd say this?

there will either be 7 town and 2 mafia, or 4 town pitted against 5 self-aligned opposing factions, two of which have some mutuality in wincon and will be able to communicate via private thread.

What stops a self-aligned faction from being called 'Mafia', and said self-aligned faction being explicitly antitown?

Because between me knowing that there is an antitown faction that possesses a nightkill.
And there being a guarantee that in a 3p world there's a group of two who have mutuality in their wincon and a PT.
I have good reason to believe that even if the game is four town and five nontown, the game still has a "scum" faction.

The 3P faction could be called “Mafia”, but Nic earlier confirmed that his informed role claim worked off alignment not flavor name.

And I wholeheartedly agree with what you’re saying Mastina. Nic confirmed that if we are in a 3P world they cannot check as mafia to his informed. So if you believe Nic, this is a nonstarter.

[MathBlade]

Nic himself specifically confirmed 90% 10% mafia 0% 3P. He literally cannot he 3P and think Dunn is scum 3P.

But he can be,
1: nonmalevolent 3p who was lying about his information,
—-This is definitionally false
2: nonmalevolent 3p who was telling the truth about his information but didn't understand it properly,
—-This version unvotes when pushing conf!Town he’s has many chances.
3: nonmalevolent 3p who was telling the truth about his information, but thinks that Dunnstral is Mafia and assumes Mafia is a malevolent faction this game.
—- This version Nic himself rejected.

None of these feel improbable/impossible to me; all feel at

least

plausible, if not

probable

.

The most probable is you think lying at the start of the game is non malicious.

These are all ridiculous Mastina.

[MathBlade]

What stops a self-aligned faction from being called 'Mafia', and said self-aligned faction being explicitly antitown?
...
I have good reason to believe that even if the game is four town and five nontown, the game still has a "scum" faction.

I agree with you about the factions thing, that was the same "scumslip" I made earlier.

And sure, I guess there could be 1 player labeled "Mafia" but that seems very weird to me. The OP says the two would be self-aligned and just have mutuality in their wincon, so they couldn't

both

be Mafia and it seems kind of Bastard to label exactly 1 of those players Mafia but I guess it isn't literally impossible.

Anyway I think a lot of this has gotten

WAY

more focus than is healthy or relevant.

Nah. With how you responded earlier and how the player base has been, Dunn or Nic are likely the elimination.

If you think they’re both town provide a better scumspect and reasoning.

[MathBlade]

Mastina, do you still townread Math as hard as you were before, especially the couple pages before this (when you get to it.)

More and more, yes.
This is the reasonable Mathblade, the Mathblade whose logic may delve into moonlogic at times but whose base pushes and reasonings are largely outside of that zone.

I'm MORE sure of Mathblade being town here than I ever was before, specifically due to the fact that if Mathblade were scum, I'd expect him to, so to speak, be more "crazy" than he is right now. More bullheaded, more stubborn, more irrational, more controlling or complaining about controlling behavior from others.

But this Mathblade is actively trying to work with others, reach out to them, be reasonable, be open, be withdrawn from making absolute hard stances, has flexibility, etc. Just all-around. Town.

I'd really like to hear your reasoning on TGP in more detail

Basically.
Every time I have played with TheGoldenParadox.
His posts resonate with me a lot, with me seeing his logic, where he is coming from, his reasoning, and by and large, me agreeing with almost all of it, but critically, not literally every word of it. Where there's very significant overlap, but no absolute copy of stances. His reads/reasons aren't meant to buddy me, with him having developed them on his own, and yet I follow them start to finish and find them to be a very organic process that I can see forming from town but have trouble seeing scum come to.

But yes, I admit, I've no experience with him as scum.

Devil’s advocate this isn’t how one scum reads me.

But that’s my opinion.

But I am town. I will take right for the wrong reasons.

[MathBlade]

The only way I see Sky as scum is 3P if it matters to you Mastina.

Still tho.

I've like one or two reasons to townread SKYEscrapers, both of which are weakened in a 3p world, and rather a number of reasons to scumread them so if they are a "3p", there's a fair chance it's malevolent (i.e. that they're scum).

I see that. But you’re missing something very antitown to say if what you’ve said previously is true. If this was just Ari slot, I would agree and they’d be higher on my list.

But something early game removes that for me.

[MathBlade]

I'm not allowed to do PoE?

You are. You just have to be more convincing than eliminating Dunn or Nic.

Mafia is very much a game of charisma.

If you’re town you have your reads. It doesn’t quite well matter if you can’t explain it well enough.

So either A) You have to explain a fuck ton of stuff better about Nic’s claim and explain Dunn town to the thread’s satisfaction
Or
B) You have to explain someone else is more likely scum to outweigh that prior evidence.

That’s how mafia works.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town.

But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

@Mastina here you go.

[MathBlade]

Confirmation bias doesn’t explain what would be a literal mod clear Mastina.

[MathBlade]

—-This is definitionally false

What makes it definitionally false?
A nonmalevolent 3p is a 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town.
A nonmaleveloent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is not beneficial to their wincon.

*A nonmalevolent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is beneficial to their wincon to lie/if it is not beneficial to their wincon to tell an absolute truth.
(I crossed streams and combined half of one with half of another when saying either would convey my intended meaning but half of one and half of the other conveys the opposite of my meaning.)

It’s possible but not probable. The more likely answer is if 3P he is malevolent.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town. But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

@Mastina here you go.

To me that read as Nic making an assumption, not an absolute definitive declaration.
As in.
He says "so if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town"--this read to me as not mod knowledge from schadd_, but him making an assumption.

Schadd says X is literally claiming the mod said something.

If we are in a 3P game, Nic unvotes Dunn every time. Yet he refused to commit to a regular scum game.

C’mon Mastina this looks like grasping for straws here.

[MathBlade]

And if Nic himself was 3P then he’d know it was a 3P game and he unvotes Dunn.

The only way your argument works is if you think Nic is town.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says X is literally claiming the mod said something.

Yes--he said "schadd says X"...to the

first sentence

. "schadd said Mathblade is right about the meaning of 'mafia' in my role". That is, in fact, claiming the mod says something, clearly and unambiguously. The first sentence is him clearly saying mod info.

Not so much for the second. The second is what I was calling as looking like an assumption, rather than absolute knowledge.

It looks like, "the mod said this info (from the first sentence; mod info), therefore this is the case (this, from the second sentence, reads as an assumption from him)".

So I want to hear more from Nic and for him to be more explicit on the case.

In essence.
As much as you grilled him, I think you missed a critical step in the grilling, one which is of importance to have it be answered, rather than you just assuming it is answered already.

Go for it.

If I am wrong I would love to be so. I don’t see how but if by all means you can demonstrate your townread that’s awesome. I do agree we can’t afford a town elimination.

[MathBlade]

The last question imho is misleading. May I reword it?

[MathBlade]

I'm not allowed to do PoE?

You are. You just have to be more convincing than eliminating Dunn or Nic.

Mafia is very much a game of charisma.

If you’re town you have your reads. It doesn’t quite well matter if you can’t explain it well enough.

So either A) You have to explain a fuck ton of stuff better about Nic’s claim and explain Dunn town to the thread’s satisfaction
Or
B) You have to explain someone else is more likely scum to outweigh that prior evidence.

That’s how mafia works.

Can you try being less of a condescending jerk please?

Sorry? I didn’t see how that could be condescending. I was trying to reach out in case you’re town.

[MathBlade]

Sorry? I didn’t see how that could be condescending. I was trying to reach out in case you’re town.

It comes across to me like you informing me I don't have any charisma (maybe because I'm not loud or confident enough?) and then explaining to me how mafia works like I'm 5.

I am sorry that I said it in a rude way, but I am trying to cooperate with you. I have seen many people with right reads be unable to explain where they are coming from. Those get really easy to deflect by scum. See Nero in the recently completed game. He was right about me being scum but no one cared because he was so easy to reject. I am trying to figure out a way to get you to help bring people into your way of thinking if you’re town. The avenues you’re trying really make you look like you’re scum with Nic versus how Mastina is going about it.

[MathBlade]

Okay, I'm unwilling to vote for anyone but:
{SKYEscrapers, TheGoldenParadox(nona), mastina, MathBlade(PlusJOYED)}

I'll suck it up and vote for someone else if we have to for deadline but that's it.
TGP is my current top choice and I'd like someone to give a real reason why that's such a bad wagon that it's unthinkable.

Can some of the non-MathBlade people please chime in more?

Despite what Mastina says, it feels like he's sort of come in and taken over the game and we haven't been able to talk about anything else other than his current pushes since he joined.

Sure shutting up now.

[MathBlade]

If the answer to Mastina’s second question is yes, and assuming this is not a 3P game, then is mafia necessarily the 2P scum team?

^^ That’s how I would word it. Your last question imho assumes Mafia the faction exists.

If Nic is taken at his word, this doesn’t imply a mafia faction exists and in fact informs nothing except Dunn can’t be 3P.

@Nic I know this is repetitive and I am sorry. Just if you can one more time for me answer that.

[MathBlade]

@Mastina Now do you see why Nic can’t be 3P and truthtelling Mastina?

[MathBlade]

Or actually he could be truthtelling if 3P he’d just be trying to elim town which would make him a bad 3P and need to be eliminated.

[MathBlade]

My role is stupid if I'm not town. It might as well say "Your neighbor is town", since there are no mafia.
But who cares.

It would exist as a fake claim. Or you’re just lying. Is this a slip there’s no mafia since this says “since” instead of “if” and Nic is 3P?

Sorry sorry shutting up

[MathBlade]

Bring it. It’s not really seizing an opportunity when you claimed scum imho. You haven’t hunted and are omgusing. Quite happy with this development.

[MathBlade]

i feel like all of this 3p vs non 3p discussion is deliberately something thrown in by schadd to mess with us, and I feel like the amount of discussion that's based on the word 3p instead of town is far too large.

I think I can be fairly confident that this game is, fundamentally, mafia. It's an uninformed majority pitted against an informed minority. Thus, while there might be 3ps in the game, the amount of focus there seems bad. We know that two individuals, with a wincon somewhat or fully mutual to each other and fully exclusive to that of town (all threats to the town must be eliminated, therefore they must be a threat to the town, because otherwise this wouldn't be a game of mafia.) As in, there's an uninformed majority, and an informed minority: like MBOS Large, there may be differing levels of information within those two groups, but those are the two groups.

Thus, if this is a 3p game, I am fairly comfortable treating any 3ps that aren't part of the "scumgroup" as town, at very least for d1. Mechanically, Nic seems like scum, and from play, nic seems to me like scum as well. VOTE: niccage

We have less than 24 hours left. It's compromise time.

mastina, dunn, akarin, gypyx, would you join this?

that's not true. i am completely town and I think the possibility that this game is literally either a game where 5/9 people are 3p or not is sorta important to address. It's not like one of those games where there's a CHANCE of being a 3p maybe 1-2 ppl out of a massive number of people though? over majority of people being 3p is like very different dynamic.

There's no guarantee that all 5 3p's have similar wincondition to town (e.g. Jester or maybe someone wins in town's stead if they are last to survive etc). I didn't get that only 2 out of the 5 possible 3p's are of 'scum alignment' - did I miss something?

It’s in the OP.

I really think A should be switched for DT in Mastina’s block.

Then again I suspect she may have her own reasons for that block.

[MathBlade]

Yes. I commonly shorten usernames as my play is almost exclusively on my phone.

[MathBlade]

like what is Dunnstral doing? He's literally posting 1 post while others are posting like at least 5 times? Not that activity should be used to scum read people but this is like to the point where he just simply seems like he has no interest in game? He will never leave the PoE like he deserves and we could sort of clear nic based on whether or not dunnstral flips a scum rolecard. I also have this huge gut feeling that he's most likely to have a team right now based on how the thread slowly moving away from his lynch over niccage's even though t here's not much point in that and would like a dunnstral flip first.

this sort of behavior by dunnstral probably makes MOST sense if he is non-town (likely 3p or scum whatever). he literally has 0 motivation to solve anyone and is clearly showing thata by his posting even though there's less than 24 hours to go and there actually has been incredible amount of new information. like the difference in how fast the thread is growing (people are posting) seems like 15mph run versus like a 60mph run now. but dunnstral is going the exact opposite of that which is

NOT TOWNIE

Nah. I think Dunn is scummy for other reasons, but his activity level isn’t one of them. Expecting someone to keep up with me on d1 is a bit much.

[MathBlade]

ftr, even though I was scum reading Akarin before I feel better about her, I think. I think as scum she would have put me in her PoE, but she didn't even though it probably was really easy for her to do so. I think I see a genuine progression in thought there.

I think A is looking for a way out and knows you’re not low hanging fruit.

The resistance to both Nic and Dunn is rather telling neither have been hammered.

[MathBlade]

As for mastina, her posts from first 3 pages compared to the posts in the last ~5 ish pages are like night and day. I am not sure if I can really categorize that to be scummy or townie. Yes, in general, it's town indicative to show more motivation in genuine solving after new info is out. However, because this game can be a 5 person 3-p game, this sort of behavior is probably also true for non-town alignment player.

Mastina could be a 3P, but if she is she’s townsiding today and not worth a PoE.

I kinda hinted at it when I mentioned you should be in the town block.

More than likely if she is 3P, Mastina is balancing siding with A who is likely 3P and me who is town and trying to figure out how to fit which is why she pushed Skye for a bit.

I don’t see her as group scum though.

[MathBlade]

like what is Dunnstral doing? He's literally posting 1 post while others are posting like at least 5 times? Not that activity should be used to scum read people but this is like to the point where he just simply seems like he has no interest in game? He will never leave the PoE like he deserves and we could sort of clear nic based on whether or not dunnstral flips a scum rolecard. I also have this huge gut feeling that he's most likely to have a team right now based on how the thread slowly moving away from his lynch over niccage's even though t here's not much point in that and would like a dunnstral flip first.

this sort of behavior by dunnstral probably makes MOST sense if he is non-town (likely 3p or scum whatever). he literally has 0 motivation to solve anyone and is clearly showing thata by his posting even though there's less than 24 hours to go and there actually has been incredible amount of new information. like the difference in how fast the thread is growing (people are posting) seems like 15mph run versus like a 60mph run now. but dunnstral is going the exact opposite of that which is

NOT TOWNIE

Nah. I think Dunn is scummy for other reasons, but his activity level isn’t one of them. Expecting someone to keep up with me on d1 is a bit much.

I don't see much difference in lynching nic or dunn over the other. why do you prefer nic? if anything nic was the more pro-town slot. dunn was the one who was trying to hide information from the townies?

Where do you see Dunn hiding information?

It was Dunn who exposed what was going on in the hood.
It was Nic who “made a mistake”.

So far Dunn seems on the up and up just not hunting as much as I would like and that’s why he’s scummy.

[MathBlade]

ftr, even though I was scum reading Akarin before I feel better about her, I think. I think as scum she would have put me in her PoE, but she didn't even though it probably was really easy for her to do so. I think I see a genuine progression in thought there.

I think A is looking for a way out and knows you’re not low hanging fruit.

The resistance to both Nic and Dunn is rather telling neither have been hammered.

I can see that. I also believe Nic and Dunn should be dead soon. why are you voting dunn over nic?

I’m not?

[MathBlade]

ftr, even though I was scum reading Akarin before I feel better about her, I think. I think as scum she would have put me in her PoE, but she didn't even though it probably was really easy for her to do so. I think I see a genuine progression in thought there.

I think A is looking for a way out and knows you’re not low hanging fruit.

The resistance to both Nic and Dunn is rather telling neither have been hammered.

I can see that. I also believe Nic and Dunn should be dead soon. why are you voting dunn over nic?

I’m not?

oh I saw nic vote you and you said 'bring it' and 'omgus' so I assumed you voted him and he voted you back

That is correct. I voted Nic.

Your question asks why I am voting Dunn instead of Nic.

[MathBlade]

UGH it's late and I should just go to sleep. the question I guess is why you are voting nic over dunn. I personally believe both are about the same and dunn gives out a lot of information too. nic is a better player to have around for another day+ if he's gonna post more. it's weird, but it's true. if players don't post enough it's gonna be hard to read them regardless of their alignment and isn't good for town.

if you are willing to convince me to vote nic over dunn, I am open to hearing it

If you think of them both the same, the mechanically smart play is to eliminate Nic.

If we’re wrong and he is town, then we net a very likely town in Dunn as I believe the game is 3P.

If anything we need to prevent miseliminations in case I am right and it is 3P.

Where as if we eliminate Dunn and we’re wrong that tells us nothing about Nic. If Dunn is 3P then Nic is conf!3P and if Dunn is scum there’s still this ambivalent weird bus possibility.

Eliminating Nic puts us in a better situation whether right or wrong.

[MathBlade]

Uhm,

That is factually false unless you are scum.

The options are
1) You are town and truthtelling >> Dunn can’t be 3P which means miraculously the wagon on him dies if people are 3P as I suspect.
2) You are town and lying >> Well that sucks. Can’t do shit about that.
3) You are 3P and telling the truth >> You shouldn’t have been on Dunn and suspecting him.
4) You are 3P and lying >> We eliminated a lying 3P and Dunn can be sorted tomorrow.
5) You are scum >> Dunn is likely town but not proven so.

What option is missing?

[MathBlade]

Shut up Math, I want to hear from TGP

I shut up for a good 12 hours earlier. Why are you not confronting the above?

Do you somehow think miraculously that in a few hours a huge group is going to come on and eliminate someone besides Nic or Dunn? Nic didn’t even try to present a case and is outright threatening to have me killed.

At best you are pocketed by Nic. At worst you’re scum with him.

[MathBlade]

Math, you made over 6 pages worth of posts in a 30 page game in 24 hours.

People are coasting and it's easy for them to miss or "miss" questions in the noise.

I want to see TGP actually explain their thoughts before the day ends.

And a majority of that was catching up / getting into the swing of things.

Again you’re failing to interact with the logic above.

You posting about that doesn’t stop TGP from answering and if need be I will be a cheerleader for it.

However you need to confront the reality of how defensive/anti-hunt Nic is truly being.

[MathBlade]

@akarin i've explained my case on nic a few times in my iso. plus, all of his voting now looks like desperate scum trying to avoid being limmed. also, we have just a few hours until deadline.

Expand on that more.

Give examples.

Akarin if town wants to read you. Show her what I and Mastina see.

[MathBlade]

@akarin i've explained my case on nic a few times in my iso. plus, all of his voting now looks like desperate scum trying to avoid being limmed. also, we have just a few hours until deadline.

I see mostly stuff from quite a while back that other people have refuted at various times and I'm wondering what of that is still in your reasoning and if you have any responses to people who've argued against the stuff you keep requoting?

Really? Where?

Show me.

Because that’s a load of horse crap.

[MathBlade]

Math, do you really feel like a game where everyone fights with you and no one has any interactions with each other makes scumhunting easier?

Akarin, do you engage in hyperbole often to distract from caught scum?

You want to hunt TGP I am helping you.

You lied I called you out. Your response is this.

This is similar to the Undertale game where there was one freakin scum out of 20 plus players.

You should be trying to figure out where your stance is on Nic.

If I am right, I am probably deader than a doornail tomorrow which is okay.

[MathBlade]

YOU ARE NOT HELPING.

You're making it hard for me to get anything out of anyone else and you're honestly really hurting engagement in the game.

I shut up for 12 hours close to deadline.

I won’t let you go on a fucking fishing expedition for someone else.

You have blatantly refused to interact with the arguments and only said Nic is town.

Sorry you don’t like Nic is the elim today.

TGP did respond to you and you responded with a lie.

If you tell the truth and interact with what is in thread I miraculously shut up.

If you do bullshit I stop you.

[MathBlade]

schadd Can we get some prods if needed please?

[MathBlade]

If logic is irrelevant to you, there is no point in me responding to you at all.

Man I wish I had a day vig.

[MathBlade]

Protown isn’t determined by volume.

I am a high volume poster as any alignment.

Oh Skye goes in the 3P bin for sure. Ari and Tris have a meta that calls for that.

It depends on the person’s meta and what quality they are bringing and what’s in the posts.

You’ve had more posts sure but they’re just bad.

[MathBlade]

Man you remind me of Titus so much Akarin it’s not even funny.

[MathBlade]

Do you want TGP to answer those or shall I?

[MathBlade]

Lol I got us a prod. I've been reading and reacting in the hydra chat we have but wasn't switching accounts to post when on mobile.

I'm about 10 pages behind and was hoping to be caught up before posting, but oh well.

Looks like 3 hours left. I'd be very willing to hammer Nic as it gets closer. If anyone has questions for me, I'll be around.

- Ari

Thoughts so far?

[MathBlade]

I would yes. You’re following lurker scum Ari right now and I want you to show me I am wrong.

[MathBlade]

I would yes. You’re following lurker scum Ari right now and I want you to show me I am wrong.

Lol I understand the sentiment and I can see how it looks that way. As I say, I've been yelling in the hydra chat and was mostly letting Tris take the reins here for a while because I didn't feel like it.

Let me grab some of my notes. Which slot(s) would you like to know about?

I want to see some in depth content. Pick what slots you like.

[MathBlade]

I don’t see how G was open wolfing.

They were pretty Townie in what A brought up earlier.

Care to elaborate?

[MathBlade]

Not all mods obey the have you extend deadline rules. Especially on other sites. Are you sure you’re not forcing MS meta onto G?

[MathBlade]

My scum possible list: Nic, A, Mastina, Ari Hydra, Dunn

That’s the order of priority too imho assuming Nic is scum.

If Nic is town then A gets temporary reprieve. The last two admittedly are PoE as I like everyone else more.

[MathBlade]

Not all mods obey the have you extend deadline rules. Especially on other sites. Are you sure you’re not forcing MS meta onto G?

The mod posted it. Then I quoted it when the conversation was relevant, then a page later they didn't know somehow??

No, I'm not pushing our meta on them. They were told at least twice and Iirc twice during the kerfuffle as well and they still refused to listen.
As if they had an agenda.

My read remains.

- Ari

Good point. I will reread that overnight. You can go back to null for that.

[MathBlade]

My scum possible list: Nic, A, Mastina, Ari Hydra, Dunn

That’s the order of priority too imho assuming Nic is scum.

If Nic is town then A gets temporary reprieve. The last two admittedly are PoE as I like everyone else more.

I'm poe because you like 3 people more than me when there's 9 people alive?

You’re PoE because I have town leans of various degrees on the unlisted players.

[MathBlade]

Townlean: Mathblade, Dunn, Akarin
Null: TGP
Scumlean: Gypyx, mastina, DT, Nic

This is my list, except I have Nic as town and DT as Null, and swap you with me

Why do you have Nic as town?

[MathBlade]

Townlean: Mathblade, Dunn, Akarin
Null: TGP
Scumlean: Gypyx, mastina, DT, Nic

This is my list, except I have Nic as town and DT as Null, and swap you with me

Why do you have Nic as town?

The play is too dumb to be scum

Townlean: Mathblade, Dunn, Akarin
Null: TGP
Scumlean: Gypyx, mastina, DT, Nic

This is my list, except I have Nic as town and DT as Null, and swap you with me

I'm glad to hear that. Looks like no wagon switch is possible so we'll have to see how this goes!

I'm ready anytime for the hammer but can def wait until just before deadline hits.

- Ari

I’d say set an alarm for 15 minutes before flip. Someone else needs to be backup at 5 minutes in case Ari forgets.

[MathBlade]

Hey it works. Hammer was done. Better safe than no elim.

[MathBlade]

Now that the win is announced you were right to kill me.

I was going to gun for you otherwise Mastina. I spent all dead thread hunting your partner Akarin was correct if Nic flipped town I would be gunning for you.

Well played but imho you have a tell.

[MathBlade]

I do agree your play here was better than your original scum play which made me think 3P but you’re missing a hallmark of town you.

[MathBlade]

So if the logic was perfect, that means that logically Dunn and I were obvscum here and you were town.

Well before schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim as town...kinda sorta, yes.

After schadd_ confirmed Dunnstral's claim tho, admittedly yes, the logic was proven flawed.

(Basically. A lot of my arguments were based on something schadd_ later, very publicly, confirmed to not be the case. Attacking the logic I presented as being from scum wouldn't have worked because as town I would've made those same arguments with no way of knowing they were wrong until the mod announced it, so if that were your angle of attack, it wouldn't have worked. Pointing out that, given Dunn's roleclaim was now modconfirmed, that my arguments were no longer valid after the fact even if they were valid at the time, and that with them no longer valid that there was less reason for Dunnstral to be scum, very well could have worked. Saying my arguments were made in bad faith wouldn't work, saying my arguments were clearly wrong from the getgo wouldn't work, saying that my arguments were now invalidated by the mod might have. The logic I used was reasonable and accurate to the facts of the game at the given time, but shown incorrect by schadd_'s announcement. Attacking me for having made stances that were at the time reasonable wouldn't have done good, but pointing out the stances were now proven wrong could have. So schadd_ confirming Dunnstral's claim gave you a very good angle you'd otherwise not have.)

I tend to agree here.

I would have handled it by telling Dunn the impacted party and the mafia team privately. This would still make town hunt the claim. Granted it would be harder to explain but still.

I am just hella sad out of the aliens no one saved me

[MathBlade]

Also, what was the canadian townie?

Tgp said named Townie.

[MathBlade]

And Skye privately*

Whoever didn’t get the notification and shoulda got it.

[MathBlade]

Oh that’s not what I was aiming for.

You’re more positive as Town. You build people up. As scum there’s a hint of any idea destroy it but you didn’t force your own or try to rebuild flow once it was dead. You sorta went with it.

[MathBlade]

We know from the setup that daytalk is enabled everywhere, and scum always share a PT anyway. So why can't Dunn and I just be lying about the neighborhood, and actually just be buddies?

Dude you literally paraphrased your PT--are you telling me you think that paraphrase is in any way even remotely realistically fakeable?

I don't mean, "yes, in theory, it is theoretically possible to fake a neighborhood pt conversation like this".

I mean in practice, do you think YOU, with your overall knowledge about you and Dunnstral, without an actual neighborhood PT, are capable of having faked this, thought it was a good idea, and gone through with it? To have pulled an elaborate ruse?

Because if a player said "Dunnstral and NicCage are clearly faking a PT conversation and are actually scumbuddies".

I'd be tempted to lynch that player on the spot for pushing an obvious paranoia theory that blatantly violates occam's razor. Because the simplest, and most likely, explanation, is that the neighborhood is real. schadd_ likes to have neighborhoods in his games, and he would never make a scum-scum neighborhood, therefore the claim of one is very very very likely to be true, especially with the play to back it up.

I originally thought that the Nic-Dunnstral interactions reeked of scum-scum since your inthread treatment of each other reeked of being forced and faked--but you being in a neighborhood with Dunnstral provides the perfect explanation for that and turns it into a situation that makes total sense as being from town/"town" (if you're 3p).

Ergo.

You're not scum.

You're either town, or a 3p, but if you're a 3p you're effectively town anyway and thus, still town, and thus, still not scum, and thus, not a good elimination today or ever.

And of course, the stated motive for the partial read change is based on a revelation of the new setup, not on reads.

Well obviously?
When I have made reads based off of no/wrong information, then when I get information that gives new context to the situation, including your neighborhood claim and the possibility of a 4-5 game, then that means the reads need to be updated to account for the new information.

And by the new information, Dunnstral remains scum but you become, instead of a scumbuddy with forced interactions with him, town (I feel like I should just say 'town' even though it'd be more accurate to say "town or benevolent 3p which is basically town") whose interactions with him were due to you having a neighborhood with him.

Like.
I was fucking right.
I said I thought your interactions with Dunnstral were faked and reeked of scum-scum.
They were, kinda sorta, 'faked'--not really, but they were due to you actually having a PT with Dunnstral.
But I had no way of knowing that your topic with Dunnstral wasn't a scum topic until you claimed it, did I?

Was it Mathblade himself who testified in MBOS 10 that masons look like scum? Someone did that game, at least, and a similar principle applies here for a neighborhood. Neighborhoods that're unclaimed can look like scumbuddies, until the neighborhood is revealed and that information puts to light that they are in fact, not scumbuddies, but neighbors who did have info about one another.

It’s this post imho that really sold you’re 3P or scum.

It’s too twisty. The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

[MathBlade]

@Math

I'm not disagreeing about what you're saying about town confirming Dunn, I'm just arguing that I don't see not seeing that as evidence of Nic being scum.

I am torn about it on Nic being scum.

However, what I am not torn about it, is that if he is town, he has admitted a mistake and reset.

If he resets and still gets Dunn scum then he’ll have a better case and rebuild his credibility.

Right now, based on what is in thread his theories either are not logically sound and/or I break them by existing.

Therefore I am asking him to reset and come back and my vote is on him until he does or if it needs to be back on Mastina or G for an elimination.

Fuck me I had another good town game.

I might be better at this. Setup spec was bad though.

[MathBlade]

The last paragraph is sell hard like you know I am town.

Uh.
MathBlade.

I made that post before I knew you were in the game.

That post was made in response to a time before you had replaced into the game.
There was zero selling of you being town there because as far as that post was concerned...you weren't in the game yet.

(I should note tho that I was selling someone as being town there--it was actually made towards

TheGoldenParadox

, who was also in MBOS10 and thus was who I was actually appealing to there.)

Oh I thought you knew I was in the game XD.

[MathBlade]

Oh I thought you knew I was in the game XD.

Nope, you being in the game was just a happy coincidence since it'd help verify my claims as being accurate.
But I made them not knowing you'd be able to do so.

It was accurate enough.

Titus is the one that reads masons as scum a lot.

I generally am better at diagnosing the two than her.

[MathBlade]

Yeah Mastina was right too.

I am usually a train wreck but good this game.

And yeah I agree with that. The posting right before I died was good from your slot so I went back null. If it wasn’t for that crumb I woulda been dead set on your slot probably.

[MathBlade]

Pirate Mollie