Mini Normal 2174 | Korean Pop Music | Mafia Wins!

[Glitch]

VOTE: No Lynch

That bitch is hella sus

[Glitch]

Lmao jk VOTE: Noraa for shits and gigglez

[Glitch]

Bob, I am legitimately scared of you.

I feel like there's a story or some meta knowledge here I want to know about. Why are you scared of Bob?

[Glitch]

I'm actually excited to play with you again Noraa, all bullshit aside. I don't remember which one it was but last game together we were freaking at each others throats. Hopefully this game we can get along alright.

[Glitch]

Bob, I am legitimately scared of you.

I feel like there's a story or some meta knowledge here I want to know about. Why are you scared of Bob?

God the last game I was in with him, I got fooled so bad. Never suspected him and he was a dang scum traitor or something

Oh shit
VOTE: Bob

Let's be town block noraa

[Glitch]

I'm actually excited to play with you again Noraa, all bullshit aside. I don't remember which one it was but last game together we were freaking at each others throats. Hopefully this game we can get along alright.

shhhhh its ongoing. be quiet

Oh my bad sorry. I am so bad at mixing games up. Disregard. Not talking about it anymore

[Glitch]

I'm actually glad to play with a lot of new players. Ive played with you and Hiraki and that's it. New faces, fresh new reads with no meta muddying things up. It can be a plus and a minis but this way I don't mix up reads across games.

Speaking of not letting meta cloud my fresh take on players:
Noraa what ways did Bob use to pocket you or make you think he was town? XD

[Glitch]

Plusjoyed is LOCKTOWN

[Glitch]

Bob didn't even pocket me
I literally just was pocketed without him doing anything. Defended him everywhere ;(

Okay well hai my name is Bob and I'm not pocketing you
Defend me

[Glitch]

Lolol I'm sorry for being stupid for literally an entire page+ but this is the only way any game D1 is bearable.

[Glitch]

normally I only get pocketed when
1)I'm under a lot of pressure and someone hard defends

Yeah it is tempting to let someone pocket you if you're in this situation unless you're a level headed and balanced personality which as you can tell, neither of us are. Ha

On a little serious note, I played a bit with Hiraki. I had a hard time sorting him and he seemed to post content that was pretty neutral on AI content. This is all based on memory and if I felt like it I could go back and reread him and my reads on him in our game together, but it was a large and that is a daunting task for a slow, sleepy Monday morning.

[Glitch]

VOTE: bob

Not enough drama
Lockscum

[Glitch]

Hello everybody

Why did you not vote Bob?

[Glitch]

SHIT
Welp
Back to the drawing board

[Glitch]

my fellow town aligned players

This reads as uncomfortable and forced

[Glitch]

Btw I remembered wrong. Bob wasn't a mafia traitor last game. He was just an informed goon.
The traitor was from a different game of mine.

Did you go back and check the game thread?

[Glitch]

VOTE: bob

Not enough drama
Lockscum

VOTE: bob

This blind vote leaves me feeling flubber is town. The fourth vote on the first rvs wagon is almost always from town especially the more blind it is. As scum tend to have trepidation when voting a townie on the first rvs wagon i find. They might vote early or after the ice is broken but not that on the tipping point between being nearer no votes and being near exec.

UNVOTE: Bob
This take feels green. It can't be a hard and fast rule but it is a good concept that can give us leans.

[Glitch]

Sup y’all

VOTE: Hiraki

Lots of meta talk this fine October morning

What are your thoughts on meta?

[Glitch]

Just so you all know this is my first forum mafia game. My experience with mafia is with games that take 1-3 hours lol

Welcome Keita, glad to have you! You'll do great!
/get in my pocket
XD

[Glitch]

It'll take me a bit to remember these avatars. Im already confusing the ones with like two posts.

speaking of avis why did you change yours

I miss her old colorful one.

[Glitch]

Btw I remembered wrong. Bob wasn't a mafia traitor last game. He was just an informed goon.
The traitor was from a different game of mine.

Did you go back and check the game thread?

yeah. the info's right this time I saw it with my two eyes.

Did you do it because of this?:

Bob got called out in the last game with me for only saying the word "fellow" in scum games. No one believed it at the time and we limmed the person that said it but they were right :/

Couldn't somebody have just searched Bob's games to find out whether that's true or not?

Why did this post put enough pressure on you to make you check the thread? Are you hyper self aware because your scum, or because you're Noraa?

[Glitch]

Pretty happy w/ my vote rn

I'll join you for now.
VOTE: Trendall

[Glitch]

Agree with what Noraa says in post #88, I thought the same thing too before she said it.

VOTE: Glitch

Is this combined sheeping, iioa, AND OMGUS all at one time? And only 90 posts in? Hot damn!

[Glitch]

Also: HI STARLING, we love new people!!!

All my dramatic shenanigans at the beginning about locktown, lockscum, town block, bobscum, etc were all sarcasm. The game will get really serious probably in like 10 or 15 more pages.

[Glitch]

Btw I remembered wrong. Bob wasn't a mafia traitor last game. He was just an informed goon.
The traitor was from a different game of mine.

Did you go back and check the game thread?

yeah. the info's right this time I saw it with my two eyes.

Did you do it because of this?:

Bob got called out in the last game with me for only saying the word "fellow" in scum games. No one believed it at the time and we limmed the person that said it but they were right :/

Couldn't somebody have just searched Bob's games to find out whether that's true or not?

Why did this post put enough pressure on you to make you check the thread? Are you hyper self aware because your scum, or because you're Noraa?

Kinda confused but like the fellow thing had nothing to do with why I went back and checked. It was actually because I was talking about traitors elsewhere can't remember which thread but like someone said that traitors are a mafia member that isn't known to the mafia and the mafia only knows of their existence. I thought a traitor was like basically a RBer or something but Bob was def in the mafia thread from the start that game so I went back and checked and once I saw that I was like oh, huh so he wasn't a traitor. So I thought I'd share.

Doesnt really have much to do with being self aware and your attempt to dig into this is a bit concerning and kinda a red flag to me. Consider your past pocketing as cancelled out.

This is more of a newbie reaction than a seasoned player reaction. I simply asked you a question with a reference to a previous post because it looked like you got a slight miniscule amount of pressure placed on you by Trendall when he asked if anyone could just check bobs meta, and then you quietly showed back up having checked it out. That pinged me; why would it be scummy of me to question you on it? I didn't vote you. I didn't call for a wagon. I simply asked you questions to try and sort you.

I'm a very aggressive player. I tend to go really hard at people and grill them as town because I need to sort them. This reaction out of you gives me some info but not exactly super helpful info. From what I know of you, this reaction -- which I would describe as newbie (no offense), dramatic, and overreacting to a small, minor push -- seems to be consistent with your personality and playstyle across games. Therefore I don't imagine your response would be AI for you.

With other players I would normally find it a red flag to immediately throw shade on me for pushing them and calling them on something. Because I know you a little bit though I just doubt that your reaction is scum indicative but rather just Noraa indicative.

Why do you think it is scummy for me to see something from you that makes me raise an eyebrow, and to ask you about it pointedly? Also: why are you taking a two-quote post trying to understand you as "flipping out" on you? Don't you think that's a not of a flip out yourself over me trying to sort you?

[Glitch]

Noraa how was I trying to pocket you? By bullshitting with you for fun page 1?

We are both dramatic and loud and boisterous personalities and we both knee jerk react to things and I think that's why we often end up at each others throats here but I need to work hard to read your personality and your alignment separately. I think you should work on not knee jerk reacting.

[Glitch]

Good day all! It's good to make a first post after a four year hiatus. Forgive me if I'm not familiar with the current meta and probably some new terminologies. Looking to do some mighty fine scum-hunting with a secret weapon o' mine. Will leave an analysis post on what happened shortly

Hi welcome, glad to have you. If you're soft claiming please stop immediately <3

[Glitch]

Yes, I take the Albert B Rampage approach to scum hunting and am highly accusatory. I did accuse you. It gets a response I need. This is a game of accusations and resolutions over and over again until the end. As a town player, you should be okay with being accused and not immediately be like "Omg why are flipping out on me! You just be scum!" It's okay. People need to sort each other and I saw hyper self awareness that made me want to call you on it.

I get the whole slipper throwing thing. I do it too. But both of us can work on not throwing it so hard.

[Glitch]

Unless they didn’t actually care and just wanted to cast suspicion on me, I guess.

Do you consider it AI to cast suspicion on players in the first 5 pages without any reason to suspect them?

[Glitch]

Yes, I take the Albert B Rampage approach to scum hunting and am highly accusatory. I did accuse you. It gets a response I need. This is a game of accusations and resolutions over and over again until the end. As a town player, you should be okay with being accused and not immediately be like "Omg why are flipping out on me! You just be scum!" It's okay. People need to sort each other and I saw hyper self awareness that made me want to call you on it.

I get the whole slipper throwing thing. I do it too. But both of us can work on not throwing it so hard.

Oh also, I wanted to reference this article from the wiki when I posted this but it was from my phone and I didn't have time to find it cause I was at work.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have. It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation. You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This has been successful for me in drawing out content that is AI. This article is not the ultimate standard by any stretch and is also highly controversial to some because of the tunnel-y nature of this strategy but it is one I have found to both enjoy and be successful.

[Glitch]

Is this combined sheeping, iioa, AND OMGUS all at one time? And only 90 posts in? Hot damn!

Omgus is when you vote somebody

because

they voted for you, whereas I am voting for you for some other reason. If somebody says something and I agree with it because I already thought the same thing myself, that is not unreasonable, because the alternative is that as soon as somebody votes for one person, I'm then not allowed to also vote for that same person myself, because if I do I 'sheeped' them apparently.

Doing some catchup and replying to each thing I need to as I go. I know what OMGUS is. Voting someone who shaded, attacked, or voted you because they did so. The question is, are you doing that because I voted you and throwing it back at me makes you feel better or safer, or are you actually voting me because you believe I'm scum? Is there any of my content outside of what Noraa said in 88 that you have thoughts on?

I agree that voting with somebody because you agree with what they said is a legitimate move to make if you truly believe that you're voting scum. But unless you create content and are an active scum hunter, doing that suddenly is not towny and becomes scummy because it's totally sheeping. Sometimes town sheep. But scum LOVE to sheep. I just need to sort which you are.

[Glitch]

If I was 'omgusing' then why did I never vote for the other guy when he voted me?

Do you think in order to OMGUS one player, you have to do so to all players?

[Glitch]

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Now, as much as your pocket is enticing, I'm gonna have to pass.
What makes you think scum wouldn't participate in shits and gigglez early on? I do agree about the bob wagon though.

[Glitch]

@Glitch: Hi! 10 to 15 pages is a lot but thanks for clarifying

It may seem like it but we'll be there in no time. It doesn't mean there won't be serious content before. We're transitioning out of RVS right now. I just meant that in 10 or 15 pages we'll be at a point where almost everything is serious and there won't be a lot of shitposting going on. Usually happens in games after enough content has been generated.

[Glitch]

I feel that this is a little bit contrived.

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked.

Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Great point here; I hadn't really figured out how to put that into words but I think this is accurate. I'm just trying to sort between whether Trendall's play is newbish, playstyle, or AI.

[Glitch]

If I ever make a post myself about something that happened either in a past game or earlier on in the game I'm in, I'm always going to go back and double check what I've said to make sure I haven't misremembered anything, because either way as town or mafia it's going to reflect badly on me if I say something and then somebody else checks back and finds a contradiction.

How do you read someone who doesn't check and just goes off their memory? That's my problem; I don't care enough about being 100% consistent with what I've said in the past. If I contradict myself then I'll just clarify because it was probably a mistake. Being meticulous about checking yourself and staying consistent could even be a scumtell. Inconsistency is a towntell. Hyper consistency is a scumtell.

[Glitch]

Plusjoyed was quick to come to Glitch's defense so I'mma note down that if one is mafia the other is also maybe mafia.

This would be a fair concern except that I bus the hell out of my teammates when I play scum. I freaking LOVE rolling scum but have just had bad luck of rolling green for so long on this site. BAGH

[Glitch]

Howdy my fellow town aligned players.
How do you do on this fine evening?

hello it sure is nice to meet another town aligned player being a town aligned player myself, i am looking forward to do town aligned things together

Game advancing content, that's what this is right here folks. We should all learn a thing or two from derp.

[Glitch]

unfortunately glitch is too overeager which us town aligned players are not so derp is definitely not being opportunistic at all whatsoever when joining that wagon

VOTE: glitch

"Unfortunately I'm too overeager?" Can you tell me what this means and what specifically you feel like is acting to eager? Trying to generate content and reads, sorting people, and contributing isn't eager, it's just trying to move the game forward.

[Glitch]

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked. Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Yes, virtually all of them as far as I can remember. Certainly all the ones I've played this year. A person can easily look this up.

I checked 3 of your latest games.
The latest game you did RV on your first post and was town.
Two games before you did not RV and was scum in one and town in another.
But you didn't mention

not voting on purpose to facilitate discussion

on any of the games so I'm still inclined to believe you made it up.

NoPoint is rising to the top of my TRs. His posts so far seem like quality sorting. While this is not the strongest point, I like the effort being put in here that scum would not be required to put out at this point in the game.

[Glitch]

You are reading in too hard for something said in the first 4 pages

Slightly worrisome, Noraa. Just because it's early game doesn't mean that it's not okay to put effort into it when people act scummy. It feels like you're advocating for everyone to just shitpost until some magical thing happens and then we can actually start playing mafia.

[Glitch]

Mannnnn I'm crashing fast. I can't keep my eyes open but I am so close to being caught up.

[Glitch]

Trendall (3) - Flubbernugget, Glitch, nopointinactingup

I like this wagon. This is a good wagon and 3 town on it.

[Glitch]

Totally caught up now. I like this Trendall wagon a lot and am happy with my vote there. I'm gonna run a tally counter soon and see if I get anything decent from it.

[Glitch]

Holy crap I posted way more than I thought I did. I'm going to bed now, goodnight friends!

[Glitch]

unfortunately glitch is too overeager which us town aligned players are not so derp is definitely not being opportunistic at all whatsoever when joining that wagon

VOTE: glitch

"Unfortunately I'm too overeager?" Can you tell me what this means and what specifically you feel like is acting to eager? Trying to generate content and reads, sorting people, and contributing isn't eager, it's just trying to move the game forward.

I woke up with a clear head and am thinking like a rational person now. And I see 115 is a shitpost I probably shouldn't have taken seriously. If it was meant as serious then please clarify. If not please disregard half-asleep glitch's 168.

[Glitch]

Plusjoyed was quick to come to Glitch's defense so I'mma note down that if one is mafia the other is also maybe mafia.

This would be a fair concern except that I bus the hell out of my teammates when I play scum. I freaking LOVE rolling scum but have just had bad luck of rolling green for so long on this site. BAGH

@Glitch: You love playing as mafia?! It's soooo stressful for me :< Puzzles are more fun than lying but that's just a Staarling's opinion. Also also does this mean I should be worried that you're having so much fun in this game? You seem really upbeat and happy, like, positive vibes but is that actually a bad thing?

I'm a happy person in general and I'm so excited there's a game with content. Lately I've played some games that were really draining and grinding along so slow and monotonous; but this one is lively and fun with lots of people posting. Love it. But screw you, random.org for not letting me roll scum. Damnit

[Glitch]

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

1) I don't know why anyone is saying we are struggling to get serious stuff going; there's enough to start discussions and get things moving a good bit.
2) Getting the "should we no lynch?" Conversation out of the way is an unfortunate necessity in every D1.
3) We are not no-lynching.

[Glitch]

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

I love this post ngl.

Why? Because Staarling is cute or because you like No Lunch?

[Glitch]

Sorry but Glitch is all rigid-thinking and acronyms, his analysis is a nightmare, he's probably mafia anyway, there's no way that I'm answering any of those questions that he asked me.

OMGUS = OMG U SUCK
TR = Town Read
AI = Alignment Indicative
RVS = Random Voting Stage

These are the only acronyms I used last page. Please explain how me using these acronyms = scum?

In what way is my analysis a nightmare?

Why would you refuse to answer questions when you are the top wagon?

If I could vote harder I would right now.

[Glitch]

Looking at the VC, I don't think I'd hate a Trendall elimination but I'm not onboard with it yet.

Go back and ISO Trendall and me. Look at our interactions and then specifically look at 181 181 gives every vibe of caught scum deflecting and panicking, trying to throw the suspicion anywhere he can off of himself.

If he truly thought I were scum, he would engage me, ask me question, poke around, and then case me. But he doesn't. He just tries to make it look like I'm some big bad wolf who uses scary acronyms and bad logic. But what is actually bad logic? Hunting, sorting, and generating AI content; or refusing to answer questions and shading a player for poor reasons?

Hiraki vote for Trendall, this is the best lynch today. More votes on Trendall please.

[Glitch]

Also Trendall in what ways am I rigid-thinking? What does that mean? Can you point to any specific things I've said that you consider to be rigid thinking?

[Glitch]

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

I love this post ngl.

Why? Because Staarling is cute or because you like No Lunch?

Im the only cute one >:(
no stealies

A lone pink flower and a green puff bird can be simultaneously cute together <3

Now vote Trendall. Let's get a real wagon here

[Glitch]

If Glitch and whoever the other player were think that I 'contrived a reason' for why I didn't place a random vote in, then for what

actual

reason do they think I do it exactly?

I think you just didn't vote and weren't thinking about it. But when pressured you came up with a forced reason. The whole, "oh I actually am contributing by not voting," thing was sketch. Why did you say that? You could have just said, "I frequently don't vote right off the bat," and posted game numbers just like you did but on top of that you had to explain how not voting contributed.

Regardless of your meta you have to understand how that comes across as scummy, right? If you're scum then great, don't vote and don't create unnecessary pressure or spotlight on your slot. But then when called on it you needed to look like you were town. That's when you contrived a reason that seemed forced and fake.

[Glitch]

This guy has no idea how to find mafia whatsoever.

1) Rude.
2) This post is literally the definition of OMGUS. I am tunnelling you (the too wagon rn) and your response so far is that you're unwilling to engage me, shade me for shallow reasons without explanation (rigid, nightmare analysis), and then this 199 post literally can be paraphrased, "Glitch sucks." 199 should literally be put on the OMGUS wiki page as a case study.

Engage me, man. Go back and forth. Answer questions. Ask me questions. I'm town genuinely SRing you. If you're town genuinely SRing me we need to talk through a lot of shit until we 1) find out which one of us is lying and lynch the scum, or 2) we change our minds and accept each other as town through discussion, or 3) neither of us change our minds and we are either at each others throats for a while or we mismatch town.

How bout 1 or 2 but not 3.

[Glitch]

Honestly speaking, I think I'd be sus of him no matter what he said if he didn't vote in rvs cuz doing it is just weird but I've come to realize that not voting first post will always look sketch but its normally not a scum that's doing it.

Not voting isnt what's sus. Its when he was called on it he came up with a contrived reason for why and said he was moving the game forward by doing so. Why so defensive?

If I didn't vote early on and someone called me on it I would be like, "bro it's just RVS you're reading too much into it."

Trendall wants to make himself look like town so bad though that he says his first move during RVS not to vote was towny. That's weird. Not enough to secure his scum alignment but then everything that has developed today and yesterday is enough to make me confident in his scum alignment. Just read his last few posts. It feels exactly like caught scum.

[Glitch]

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

I've been wondering this same thing and getting the same vibe but hesitated to say anything to see if Noraa would string up her own noose at all.

[Glitch]

unfortunately glitch is too overeager which us town aligned players are not so derp is definitely not being opportunistic at all whatsoever when joining that wagon

VOTE: glitch

"Unfortunately I'm too overeager?" Can you tell me what this means and what specifically you feel like is acting to eager? Trying to generate content and reads, sorting people, and contributing isn't eager, it's just trying to move the game forward.

too eager to project town and too much mechanical talk, derp no likey

I would love to entertain this conversation but I just don't really understand the case. You'll have to be more specific. You playstyle seems to be shallow....

[Glitch]

does derp have a readslist?

derp is no longer a member of the following fanclubs: glitch, plus, noraa

Nah good try. ScumGlitch would not have the balls for page 1 scum team town blocking.

Let's be town block noraa

Plusjoyed is LOCKTOWN

[Glitch]

a contrived reason

It wasn't 'contrived'. If you perceive it this way then there's nothing I can do about that, there's nothing I can do to actually engage you.

Why do you not try to persuade me or show me how it isn't contrived rather than just acting like, "Glitch thinks what I said is scummy so I just can't even engage with him." That doesn't make sense.

[Glitch]

If he truly thought I were scum, he would engage me, ask me question, poke around, and then case me. But he doesn't.

So this is the crux of the problem for me, the guy's way of playing this game is going 'mafia act like this, and town act like this', and in reality people act in all different ways irrespective of their alignment due to personality styles and play styles and whatever else. So I know already, if I don't 'act right', he's going to think I'm mafia, and if I do make any attempt to 'act right' he'll accuse me of contriving reasons and so forth, he's completely inconsistent with what he wants from me. So I'm just stuck here, aren't I? There's nothing I can do about it other than hope that if I get lynched the other players in the game are capable of interpreting what's happened.

What does scum hunting look like to you then?

How do you sort players without looking for pings on mafia and town playing in a way that gives away their alignment? If one cannot observe, "mafia act like this and town act like this," then how does one sort between players? Of course, play style and personality styles have a major influence on how people play. If you've paid attention to my other posts, particularly ones targeted at Noraa, I have actually talked a good bit about the importance of discerning the difference between playstyle/personality, and alignment-indicative content.

I'm really sad that you're feeling frustrated by me because from what I've read of your posts, you seem articulate and willing to contribute quality content (unlike some others *coughderpcough*), but your response to me grilling you and SRing you seems to be that you're just throwing your hands up and acting like I'm some kind of hard-headed monster rather than someone who is indeed tunneling you hard, but wanting answers so I can sort your alignment and get a clearer read on your slot.

I'm asking you questions, making a case against you, and building a wagon on you for pro-town reasons and I feel like that is fairly clear, but I think your response is emotional and it's clouding your ability to engage me in a good conversation. Instead of discrediting me as a hyper-aggressive player, talk to me. Let's talk content, alignments, playstyle, strategy, quotes, cases...

anything

. But it seems like you're only willing to talk about how bad of a player I am, not talk to me about your thoughts anywhere else.

I'm sorry if I'm continuing to frustrate you. I'm not trying to; but I am trying to sort you because you're at the top of my SR's right now and I think it's only fair when you join a game of mafia to expect that when you do something that someone else interprets as scummy, regardless of whether you are scum are not, you are going to come under scrutiny for it and should respond and engage in a way that helps others sort you and your alignment.

[Glitch]

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

we can maybe be friends actually, could u elaborate on this?

It seems to me Noraa is trying really hard to strike a balance between deflecting the Trendall accusations without seeming like they are buddied. See post 198.

Keita is shortwinded but this and a previous analysis of their's I saw earlier were both spot on and I'm liking this slot a good bit.

[Glitch]

Adding my thoughts in bolded blue.

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

1) I don't know why anyone is saying we are struggling to get serious stuff going; there's enough to start discussions and get things moving a good bit.
2) Getting the "should we no lynch?" Conversation out of the way is an unfortunate necessity in every D1.
3) We are not no-lynching.

What's the point of this post?

#1 because I want to encourage people not be lazy and excuse D1 as a time we can't make some good progress.
#2 just recognizing the fact that in every game I player the "should we no lynch D1?" conversation is a necessary evil that must be completed before the end of the deadline. It's like a prophecy or something. It happens literally every game
#3 because we AREN'T no-lynching today, that's dumb and shouldn't need to be explained.

If he truly thought I were scum, he would engage me, ask me question, poke around, and then case me. But he doesn't. He just tries to make it look like I'm some big bad wolf who uses scary acronyms and bad logic. But what is actually bad logic? Hunting, sorting, and generating AI content; or refusing to answer questions and shading a player for poor reasons?

I agree with this but I'm not on board with the fact that Trendall is an "abnormal" player either. I need to dig up that first which includes doing the one thing I despise doing.

Maybe I missed something but when did you get the impression that I was trying to say Trendall is an "abnormal" player? I like that he's willing to clearly communicate with quality writing and he doesn't seem to be a lurker. While I SR his slot I don't think he's weird or abnormal, just acting sus.

@Trendall: What is your pronoun? I checked but didn't see it. Hope I got it right, just a guess.

I think you just didn't vote and weren't thinking about it. But when pressured you came up with a forced reason. The whole, "oh I actually am contributing by not voting," thing was sketch. Why did you say that? You could have just said, "I frequently don't vote right off the bat," and posted game numbers just like you did but on top of that you had to explain how not voting contributed.

I don't buy this.

Fair, but what specific part don't you buy? That he didn't vote early game and wasn't thinking about it, or that when asked about it his response was sketch?

So I know already, if I don't 'act right', he's going to think I'm mafia, and if I do make any attempt to 'act right' he'll accuse me of contriving reasons and so forth, he's completely inconsistent with what he wants from me. So I'm just stuck here, aren't I? There's nothing I can do about it other than hope that if I get lynched the other players in the game are capable of interpreting what's happened.

Correct - I agree with you here. Here are the problems -

1) If you're not being cooperative, then what are you doing? This is mafia. This is a game where you need to figure out if X, Y and Z are scum and then get A, B, C, D, and E to vote for X, Y and Z. If you find X, Y and Z but Y is also making A through E think you are scum, you've effectively done nothing. I honestly smell a lot of miselim bait on your wagon which is why I am super apprehensive on my vote on you. However, you are not helpful to town at the moment.

And see, this right here is why I want Trendall to engage me. Because I am trying to sort his slot. I am tunneling him, but it's not a death tunnel. I'm not unwilling to concede a point when I'm wrong, and I really want him to answer my questions. I guess I'm just frustrating him too much to get there though. :/

[Glitch]

Trendall I see you @ing me as I'm posting. I'm not ignoring you but I'm going to continue catching up chronologically and then respond to your current posts when I get caught up.

[Glitch]

Don't see a point in going to in depth with this read as its only page 10

I'm not saying I read this as AI but this kind of thought process really bugs me. I don't think it's fair to say we can't go deep in the early game. We've had some really great discussions so far and I feel like I could get a half-decent readslist at this point in the game. I think it's easy for both low-efforting players and for scum to use, "Oh it's just early game, don't make such a big deal out of things," as a way to discredit valid arguments, and to both deflect and weaken any pressure that is put onto them. Let's not create an atmosphere in this game that is conducive to scum being able to deflect if we catch them quick, just because, "It's only page 10."

[Glitch]

Let me try a different formatting so I don't botch this beautiful wall with my blue interjections.

1) If you're not being cooperative, then what are you doing? This is mafia. This is a game where you need to figure out if X, Y and Z are scum and then get A, B, C, D, and E to vote for X, Y and Z. If you find X, Y and Z but Y is also making A through E think you are scum, you've effectively done nothing. I honestly smell a lot of miselim bait on your wagon which is why I am super apprehensive on my vote on you. However, you are not helpful to town at the moment.

2) Why does that make Glitch scum? Because they're wrong? Isn't that the exact same point that you're making? Giving up isn't exactly a towntell in anyone's book FYI.

Everybody knows that this is very early on in the game where little of any significance happens, so if somebody is starting to talk to me about how I haven't done reams and reams of analysis yet, then that is suspect because everybody knows that nobody's reads are massively serious right now necessarily.

^[1]

If something happens that I think is interesting then I'll pick up on it, and as it happens I think that nothing relevant has happened so far in this game other than I think that Flubbernugget is more likely to be town, and that it's unlikely that all of the other players who jumped on voting me are town too.

Glitch's questions are just...I don't know how to explain but this isn't how you get information out of people. Watch a couple of episodes of Columbo or something to see how it's done properly.

^[2]

His questions are very much putting words in my mouth, bombarding me with stuff left right and centre, trying to catch me out. If you're questioning somebody with the intention of making them slip up, like you've already decided what the answers are going to be as he obviously has done, then the person will slip up, it's pointless, it's a waste of time. Like he's certain his technique works, I'll flip town, and he'll just carry on game after game doing the exact same thing without ever evaluating where he made a mistake.

He's already said to me 'if you were town you would have done this instead'. So if he already knows everything about what I would do in a given situation and I have already breached that, then what possible reason would there be to respond to his points further?

^[3]

Then there's all this theatrical stuff about 'oh this should be the definition of omgus on the wiki'. If he thinks something I've said is 'contrived' then there's nothing I can do about that other than say 'no it wasn't'. Saying something is 'contrived' is nothing, it's not an argument, it's just a person looking at a post and going 'I don't like the look of this because of a gut feeling', how could you possibly argue that further? He says that I am 'panicky' and 'feel pressured' which again, I can say 'I'm clearly not' and then we're at a stalemate. You can't reason with a person if that's the extent of their arguments.

^[4]

And again, with your question 'why does that make him scum?', I never said it did, so again that's a leading question trying to paint is as though I made a bad argument as to him being mafia when I never made such an argument at all. Like I say, his original question against Noraa was unreasonable, I thought that made him slightly more likely to be mafia than anybody else at that point given that I have no other reads, hence my vote is on him for the time being. It's not like a strong read, I don't care about it very much, but apparently if I don't vote for anybody then everybody complains about that too. As for the motivations for his arguing against me, that could go either way so I wouldn't present any of that as being in favour of him being mafia. I'm just saying that either way, nobody should be looking at his arguments against me and thinking 'yeah they're good arguments we should eliminate Trendall'.

^[5]

Nothing I have done is tantamount to 'giving up' and I couldn't care less what is and isn't a 'towntell' lol.

^[6]

[1] - 262 addresses some of this topic. I don't think that it's fair at this point in the game for someone to discredit you for not having deep reads, but I also think it's important that we don't simply dismiss all ability to sort players and have serious analysis under all circumstances just because it's early game.

[2] - Tbh I am not going to go watch Columbo, sorry, lol. I want to know why you think grilling people isn't a reasonable way to sort and find scum, and if casing and interrogating isn't your style, that's fine, but then how would you advocate sorting players and moving the game forward?

[3] - I feel like this is a misrep though. I never locked you into a box of "no matter what you say you're lockscum, die!" A hard SR isn't reconsiderable. Just because I read something you do as scummy doesn't mean you can't come back here and explain why it's not.

[4] - OMG this is what I've been waiting for. See, this is why I ask these things and this is why I paint a picture to figure out if it's true. This shows willingness to engage and persuade. As town we have to realize that we are playing a team game and we have to act like it. Persuading people to understand you point is critical and the way you handled it was pretty OMGUSy which intensified a pre-existing SL I had on you.

[5] - That last part is just a bit unreasonable though.

[6] - Why don't you care what is and isn't a towntell? Sorting town is just as important as sorting scum. Process of elimination can lead you straight to the mafia.

[Glitch]

I think Trendall is a townie because that's a looooooot of words and I think it's hard for mafia to write so much right now, because we don't any good information

Playing scum creates a lot of pressure for the player which often results in high-efforting. I wouldn't read him based on word count or post count. I would read him based on what the words say and mean.

[Glitch]

So why would Glitch be held to a higher standard? You said yourself that there's nothing happening because it's early game. Are you content with that? Why can't Glitch just be creating something to talk about to get a lead? Have you never asked questions before in a game to just try and get things moving? I just don't really understand everything in context.

My playstyle frequently lands me in hot water when I roll town and I just wanted to say I sincerely appreciate this thought and the fact that someone sees my effort for what it is. I know you'll read this and have to double-take that I may be scum writing this and so it may be a theater post, but once I flip or the game ends hopefully you'll remember this and just know that I genuinely appreciate you recognizing my playstyle as something that, while controversial and loud, can certainly be pro-town when coming from a town player.

[Glitch]

I never said that he did, I said that on the basis of that element of it it could go either way. I said that the reason I was voting for him was that it's a very light vote based on the fact that I found his point against Noraa unreasonable. If you like, you can look at it as the random vote that ppl were complaining about me not making at the start of the game.

This is fair.

I don't know what you mean by 'flailing' exactly so I'm not sure I can 'admit' to something if I'm not even sure what it is. I haven't used this word at all. As I understand the word 'flailing' then I haven't done anything resembling that, I've just sorta...dispassionately addressed the points that have come up against me.

This is not; it's blatantly inaccurate. You frequently refused to address points I made against you and instead chose to discredit me as a player instead of addressing the actual argument. That has changed as of today but yesterday this was not the case.

[Glitch]

I did, I said that if it

was

contrived then what's the actual reason for my not voting at the day start?

For what other reason would I do it in every game that you can think of?

I think our breakdown in communication comes in here: I don't think your initial choice to not vote in RVS is scummy. I think your response was sketchy at best when you were questioned on why you didn't vote. It felt very defensive so I pushed there. It erupted into our Glitch v Trendall slapfest and now I'm here trying to figure out what to make of it all in hindsight.

Somebody does something in a mafia game and their reason for doing it is because they want to see how other people react to that. I have a hard time figuring out why anybody would find that contrived or unbelievable?

Because there's a faction in this game that literally is supposed to lie and we as the faction trying to find them are supposed to question everything and not just believe everything people say.

[Glitch]

For example with you, I know now that you think 'if you were mafia you would do this' and other such things as though every single person acts in exactly the same way in the same situation across the board.

What makes you think this, and then what makes you think that there are not things mafia do that transcend playstyle or can be read through playstyle?

[Glitch]

^Disregard, the answer to this question appears to be 255

[Glitch]

-

I am responding and engaging, you just don't like the way I'm doing it.

As to how I would sort players, I don't think 'mafia act like this and town act like this' at all. My thing with deception spotting generally is you need to establish what a person's baseline behaviour is first, what their sort of go-to behaviours and attitudes are in any given situation. And then in a mafia game if a person starts to deviate from what I'd expect from them, then I start to question that.

To give an example, in that last newbie game, one of the players presented a meta argument against one of the other players. However I'd already checked their post history and found them saying 'meta is garbage'. So if they think that meta is garbage, why are they suddenly using it to defend themselves in this game? There's no way that a form of argument that they themselves don't believe is a valid form of argument unless they were fabricating it, so you know that person is mafia.

I take things on a case by case basis like that, I would off the back of that game codify it like 'oh if someone presents a meta argument they are scum', that makes no sense to me. It's hard to articulate why I don't deal in 'tells' as such, but it's like, there's a lot of variation in how different people respond to the same situation. In real life, when somebody gets accused of something, one person might get defensive, another might stay cool and collected, one might start offering a logical argument, one might start offering an emotional argument and so on. And then you have to sit and decipher all of this, like 'how would the person normally act and are they deviating from that right now?'. So to me if someone says like 'oh you are being emotional and this is a tell, mafia would try to make an emotive argument here' then it just makes no sense.

Don't apologise at all, I'm having a nice time!

This is solid. I really appreciate the effort in this post and it makes sense to me. The only thing that I would add is that, while you have adopted this way of scumhunting and evaluating players, it doesn't mean that it is the only way to sort players. As I've linked to before, I generally find myself following a strategy much more close to that recommended by Albert B Rampage in his article on scum hunting in the wiki. Us having different hunting strategies doesn't mean we're incompatible and you can't reason with me. It just means we need to hash it out.

[Glitch]

I'm going to unvote Glitch actually because he's clearly like, trying different approaches to try to communicate with me and actually get stuff out of me. You would have thought that if he was mafia he would continue piling on 'pressure' or whatever rather than sorta backing off in the way that he did there.

Honestly I have no other reads on anybody at this point other than like I say, I had a slight town read on Flubbernugget. I'm sorry but if that's the situation, that's the situation. Most of the time I find all of day one null, and this is no exception.

So Glitch, help me out here. Hypothetically if I flipped town, what would be your opinion of the people who are voting for me so far. Because intuitively to me it feels as though it's unlikely that they're all town but I can't decipher between them?

UNVOTE: Glitch

PLUSjoyed, flubber, nopoint, Keita, and me on the wagon if I am counting right?

At this point out of those four players PLUSjoyed would be at the bottom of my town-to-scum sorting. Plus pinged me with some mildly questionable posts a bit earlier but I didn't bring them up because they weren't super solid or anything. Just something I would add onto a case if I ever decided to make a case on that slot for continuing to ping me.

I like Keita and NoPoint a lot, and flubber seems moderately towny.

[Glitch]

I want to know why you think grilling people isn't a reasonable way to sort and find scum, and if casing and interrogating isn't your style, that's fine, but then how would you advocate sorting players and moving the game forward?

Again, I am literally doing it right now. I now have a lot of information about you based entirely on your reaction to my not random voting or not explaining it correctly or whatever, and off the back of that I have determined that you're most likely town. I just need to not vote another 11 times and see how each other player reacts to it and shazam, I've solved the game.

If someone does something I don't understand I'll ask them a question about it, it's not about that I disagree with 'interrogation' or whatever, it's about how it's done. You to some extent conceded yourself that your way of doing it just made me not want to engage with you. For example, if I'd identified that a player was particularly sensitive or they were a new player or something like that, I wouldn't go in hard with a load of questions and accusations because I know full well that that's going to make that player act erratically, and they might just get fed up and replace out or whatever and none of the information I get from that is useful. So it's not that I wouldn't 'interrogate' someone, I would just never use your specific method of doing it.

If I were to 'interrogate' somebody I would rather have them being question under no 'pressure', because then the person is reacting at their most natural. Which again, if I'm trying to establish people's baseline behaviours and so on...trying to actively get reactions out of them is not going to help me with that at all.

Also once I think a player is more likely to be mafia, I will generally stop engaging with them directly because I know they can twist it or whatever and will instead start to try to appeal to other town members. That's why to some extent, if you're arguing that I'm mafia and then asking me questions I would just think 'why do you care if you think I'm mafia anyway, surely you think I'm just going to lie?'. Basically I do everything completely backwards compared to how you do it.

This makes a lot of sense and I feel like I can learn from it, I just have been really frustrated that you shut me out rather than engaged me simply because our playstyles are so different. Time to move on I suppose.

[Glitch]

I think your response was sketchy at best when you were questioned on why you didn't vote.

Nobody has managed to explain

why

it's sketchy though other than 'I think that's contrived' which isn't close to an argument. Again, to reiterate, I did something, and my reason for doing it was because people have to generate some sort of content in some way at the start of the game in order to ensure other people also generate content off the back of it and therefore you have stuff to read and determine alignments from.

It's just a ping. It's a blip on the radar that comes up and in early game any ping is worth talking about to get the ball rolling. Just because it's not a hundred percent solid doesn't mean it's not worth discussing, and scum being pressured even just a little creates a desire to justify oneself and ensure your towniness is being communicated clearly to the rest of the game. That is why it felt off to me. It's fair what you have said in your comeback. But that is the answer to your question about why it was sketchy.

[Glitch]

[6] - Why don't you care what is and isn't a towntell? Sorting town is just as important as sorting scum. Process of elimination can lead you straight to the mafia.

You've misinterpreted me here, it's not about 'towntells', I don't care about 'tells' generally for reasons I gave in post 255.

The player in question I was referring to seemed to think that it was my responsibility to like actively towntell or something. It's the responsibility of the other players to interpret my behaviour correctly, it's not my responsibility to 'act correctly' in accordance to their own personal understanding of how a town player behaves vs. how a mafia player behaves - I'd have no way of knowing what that is.

If a player I think is mafia flips town I wouldn't want to be like 'that's your fault for acting scummy', I would be like 'that's my mistake, I misread the situation'.

What they said to me was ridiculous because they were like...trying to give me advice as to how to look more town or something like that? But I'm not trying to actively act like town, I would never do that, that would just confuse things because that's what mafia are trying to do. I'm just sorta like...playing the game how I play it, and this is outside what that player is used to.

Hmm.
UNVOTE: Trendall

I'm leaning to say this post doesn't come from scum. I'm trying to sort my frustration and read of this slot separate from each other and this post and making me lean a bit away from scum. I'll need to go back and ISO you soon and really evaluate things more deeply, but at this point with a 5-player wagon I think we've gotten more than enough from this wagon and I am not down with shredding you at this point anymore.

[Glitch]

I just have been really frustrated that you shut me out rather than engaged me

I swear I have pretty much just spent my entire evening sitting here talking to you or something lmao

LOL ME TOO and I'm neglecting my other games for this one all night, SHIT
But I meant yesterday when you were blocking me out. Regardless. We're moving on.

[Glitch]

Harika wants me killed too as per post 241. What do you make of that? Because that's like...an obviously disproportionate reaction to what I said but what makes me think that that's a town reaction is I think...oh god bear with me here but they tried to invoke a mod for some strange 'spoiler-tags' related reason that didn't really scan, I definitely remember seeing people using spoiler tags before with no controversy. I think what they were sort of hoping for in the back of their mind was that the mod would look at my post and think 'oh this Trendall guy is throwing the game, saying he doesn't care about town tells, he's not playing to his win condition, I'm going to replace them out or ban them from the website or something!'. I think they were genuinely that pissed off about it and that's what they were

really

going for with that. That's like...too imaginative for a mafia-sided player so I think they're town.

Hiraki is reading you as a noob and is really frustrated with you. Then after he spent so much time responding to you, he read something you wrote that really made him feel like he was wasting his time engaging you and he became very frustrated. I understand his frustration but just don't take it that far.

[Glitch]

Sorry for over 9000 posts again tonight, it's the only way I can get away from posting a wall every time I log in. That's all for today. Goodnight folks

[Glitch]

Well, on my part it was just this relentless stream of excellent well argued points that could not more clearly have come from a town-sided player. I mean I'm sure for anybody reading it...it must have been like 'woah this guy couldn't be more town', and then I'd post another post and it'd be like 'shiiiit I didn't even know it was possible for a player to be that obviously aligned with the town, this is amazing, what a great player'.

Lmao. Its pretty rare I literally laugh out loud but this made me. This was great xD

@Staarling: summary of our 1v1: it was basically just a semi-well articulated bitchslapping fest where we continued to go back and forth about how each others strategy is shit. Then once we both calmed our asses down we considered each others points and learned a lot about each other and stopped SRing each other so hard.

[Glitch]

Until I can get back to this game later tonight:
VOTE: Derp
My vote can camp there until I get more time for a more serious vote and that slot should be PL'd anyway.

[Glitch]

Re: Noraa - I really hated playing in The Trials Large. I didn't do my due diligence before signing up and the mechanics of that game ruined it for me. I really hated playing it and as you can see by the end it was such a low priority to me I didn't even care if we won anymore. I've come to learn I do not enjoy theme games most of the time and need to stick to normals.

In all of my normals though I tunnel hard. My last one was Large 229 and D1 I had a death tunnel on Nero Cain. We were both town and I got ten votes to put me at L1 for it. Me tunneling hard apparently comes off as scummy to a lot of people but it's perfectly within my town meta.

[Glitch]

Hiraki and Keita have great reads.
Plusjoyed has pinged me a little bittle.
Noraa is between null and a gentle SL.
Trendall is TL.
Flubber is TL.

More coming later. Got other games that need my attention.

[Glitch]

I don't think Trendall is new he has loads of games.

Sure and I didn't mean to insinuate that. Acting newbish doesn't mean you're new. Experienced players can still act newbish.

[Glitch]

@Wall of text between Glitch and Trendall: This actually makes me feel a little better about Trendall since his post does seem emotionally coherent. For now I feel the trendall wagon has been productive.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Nora
Crimes include fluff posting, white-knighting for no reason and constant emotional appeal.

I feel the same way about the Trendall wagon. I think it was productive. Let's do it on Noraa now. VOTE: Noraa
Can someone else head this one up though?... that was a hella lot of effort yesterday LOL

[Glitch]

^spoil walls please
I think I want my vote on glitch for now. The tunneling, tho not abnormal in mafia, normally comes from scum this early in a game. And it leading nowhere kinda tells me one of them is likely scum :/
TvT's get uglyVOTE: glitch

Hadn't seen this when I voted above but it makes me feel better about my vote because voting against me after that 1v1 with Trendall is just a really bad move.

[Glitch]

I like a good occasional wall.

[Glitch]

@mod - can Misa Tange get a prod please?

[Glitch]

I think no point is efforting too much day 1 if scum. I think a town lean is 100% appropriate cuz I generally dont see scum effort walls this early in the game.

Are you saying high effort at this phase of the game is towny to you? If so, then why are you voting me?

I think I want my vote on glitch for now. The tunneling, tho not abnormal in mafia, normally comes from scum this early in a game.

Which is it? While you can argue the validity of my points and the worthiness of my play style, you can't say I haven't been high-efforting this game. My posts aren't spam and aren't clutter. They're genuine and reasonably assembled arguments.

[Glitch]

Noraa, if you had to choose which of Glitch v Trendall is the scum and why?

In TvTs that get big and die down, I generally always think the tunneler is the scum unless the one being tunneled did some crazy shit.

I thought you said you tunnel people when you're town too?

I see you're big into meta. Please please go ISO me + Nero Cain in Large Normal 229 Day 1 and see the death tunnel I had him in and literally would not relinquish even when his wagon died. I was town neighborizing motion detector. I have this terrible tendency when I'm town and even when I'm town PR when I should be more quiet to avoid a NK, to tunnel people hard D1. It lands me in hot water but it helps me and others sort like it did here with Trendall. If you think high efforting is a town tell AND you are a believer in meta then your reasons for SRing me are not consistent with the message you've been putting forth this game and that is not a good look for you.

Pedit: hmm, maybe I remembered wrong and you're not a tunneler. Why do you feel like tunneling is "mean" and scummy? I understand what you wrote but it just boils down to, "I don't like tunneling at all and I SR it."

Can you go deeper? Why?

[Glitch]

Be patience my dear friends, as I am at work

No pressure just checking cause that slot has one post -_-

[Glitch]

Noraa, if you had to choose which of Glitch v Trendall is the scum and why?

What kind of hypothetical answer to this question would help you sort Noraa either direction? I had a thought here but it disappeared because I was going to wait until Noraa responded to post it.

[Glitch]

That's fine if you don't want to get into a 1v1 on the merits and downfalls of tunneling but what my main point I'm trying to say is: even if you dont like it and think that it's normally scummy, if you metadive me and see that tunneling is something I do D1 as town then you really shouldn't be latched onto your SR of me IF it is based primarily in the fact that I tunneled Trendall. Does that make sense?

If you believe tunneling is scummy but I show that I tunnel as town then it starts to look like instead of logically processing through that progression, you're either 1) low efforting a lot of 2) scum trying to make me look bad even though a logical explanation has been offered.

[Glitch]

Yes, it makes sense. Bear with me cuz I'm not meta-ing this week unless you only have like 3-4 pages to read

No problem. Real life is priority. It's definitely a lot more than 3-4 pages but it's right here if/when you have time.

viewtopic.php?t=83940&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

[Glitch]

I think Noraa, Glitch, Trendall are all townies

Why?

[Glitch]

derp is considering signing up for glitch's fanclub again although derp disapproves of glitch suggesting poor derp should be pl

Are you signing up for my fan club because you want me not to vote for you or because of something I said that you read as town?

[Glitch]

{Keita + NoPoint + Trendall + Hiraki}
This is currently my town pool. Flub has applied for entry and his review is currently under review.

[Glitch]

staarling I would have thought is town, yeah

It's hard to think of someone so sweet and innocent as a manipulative scum slot

[Glitch]

Lots of resistance to this trendall wagon

I think we are on the right track

If Trendall ever flips scum then Noraa is next up.

[Glitch]

I think Noraa should be the lynch today, and this time not because of her playstyle or personality. I made that mistake in my last game with her but not this one. I think flipping her would be helpful in sorting Trendall too. Her flipping scum makes him look bad. Her flipping town takes my Trendall TL up to a TR.

[Glitch]

@dear derp: Glitch and Trendall both said they liked each other after talking for ageeees, I'm going to trust they got a good read on each other after all that.. unless they're both mafia!! but then why would they talk with each other so much so probably not
Noraa gives me good feelings

Did you read the whole 1v1? What did you come away from it with and why?

[Glitch]

Someone somewhere said shellyc is sweet and innocent like Noraa. LOL Nah. I love shellyc and she's one of my favorite people to play with on site but she ain't innocent lol

[Glitch]

So sorry to hear that Hiraki. Wrecks are no fun. Best wishes getting things sorted out and I hope you're able to recover quickly.

[Glitch]

@mod V/LA until Monday

I'll do the best I can but won't be as active. My sister is in town for a long weekend from across the country. Thanks

[Glitch]

1) I have a ranking at this point. It goes Glitch -> Trendall -> Hiraki - > Everyone null -> you for this post - > nopo -> Plus. With the caveat that if I'm wrong about one of Glitch / Trendall, I'm wrong about both because I don't see them on opposite teams here.

Trendall would be a great lim today, one because there's a non-zero chance that they're scum but also that would help me read Glitch and Noraa with minor tells on half the PL at this point.

What did you read that changed your mind from Trendall being your #2 town read to being "a great lim" for the day?

[Glitch]

Trendall (4) - Flubbernugget, Glitch, nopointinactingup, Keita

Trendall (4) - Flubbernugget, nopointinactingup, Keita, PlusJOYED

---

Trendall was the biggest wagon in the game so far. It is unlikely that the largest wagon so far had 0 scum on it. If we zoom into each one of the players who have been on the Trendall wagon, here are each of their takes on Trendall and how they handled that wagon. I am not including mine because it I had a 2 hour 1v1 with him and it would be way too many quotes to post. If you want to read my thoughts and interactions with Trendall, please go to my ISO and the majority will probably be about Trendall.

Spoiler: Flub regarding Trendall

VOTE: trendall

the question is more why did you not vote in general?

By not voting and seeing how people react to that, I am participating in the beginning stages of the game just as much as anybody else is.

Ok but it doesn't seem to be doing much so you might want to rethink your strategy here

1) If you're not being cooperative, then what are you doing? This is mafia. This is a game where you need to figure out if X, Y and Z are scum and then get A, B, C, D, and E to vote for X, Y and Z. If you find X, Y and Z but Y is also making A through E think you are scum, you've effectively done nothing. I honestly smell a lot of miselim bait on your wagon which is why I am super apprehensive on my vote on you. However, you are not helpful to town at the moment.

2) Why does that make Glitch scum? Because they're wrong? Isn't that the exact same point that you're making? Giving up isn't exactly a towntell in anyone's book FYI.

Everybody knows that this is very early on in the game where little of any significance happens, so if somebody is starting to talk to me about how I haven't done reams and reams of analysis yet, then that is suspect because everybody knows that nobody's reads are massively serious right now necessarily. If something happens that I think is interesting then I'll pick up on it, and as it happens I think that nothing relevant has happened so far in this game other than I think that Flubbernugget is more likely to be town, and that it's unlikely that all of the other players who jumped on voting me are town too.

Glitch's questions are just...I don't know how to explain but this isn't how you get information out of people. Watch a couple of episodes of Columbo or something to see how it's done properly. His questions are very much putting words in my mouth, bombarding me with stuff left right and centre, trying to catch me out. If you're questioning somebody with the intention of making them slip up, like you've already decided what the answers are going to be as he obviously has done, then the person will slip up, it's pointless, it's a waste of time. Like he's certain his technique works, I'll flip town, and he'll just carry on game after game doing the exact same thing without ever evaluating where he made a mistake.

He's already said to me 'if you were town you would have done this instead'. So if he already knows everything about what I would do in a given situation and I have already breached that, then what possible reason would there be to respond to his points further? Then there's all this theatrical stuff about 'oh this should be the definition of omgus on the wiki'. If he thinks something I've said is 'contrived' then there's nothing I can do about that other than say 'no it wasn't'. Saying something is 'contrived' is nothing, it's not an argument, it's just a person looking at a post and going 'I don't like the look of this because of a gut feeling', how could you possibly argue that further? He says that I am 'panicky' and 'feel pressured' which again, I can say 'I'm clearly not' and then we're at a stalemate. You can't reason with a person if that's the extent of their arguments.

And again, with your question 'why does that make him scum?', I never said it did, so again that's a leading question trying to paint is as though I made a bad argument as to him being mafia when I never made such an argument at all. Like I say, his original question against Noraa was unreasonable, I thought that made him slightly more likely to be mafia than anybody else at that point given that I have no other reads, hence my vote is on him for the time being. It's not like a strong read, I don't care about it very much, but apparently if I don't vote for anybody then everybody complains about that too. As for the motivations for his arguing against me, that could go either way so I wouldn't present any of that as being in favour of him being mafia. I'm just saying that either way, nobody should be looking at his arguments against me and thinking 'yeah they're good arguments we should eliminate Trendall'.

Nothing I have done is tantamount to 'giving up' and I couldn't care less what is and isn't a 'towntell' lol.

hmmm. I think i need to look through glitch/trendall's dual ISO too.

ugh. effort.

I think Trendall is a townie because that's a looooooot of words and I think it's hard for mafia to write so much right now, because we don't any good information

meh. it's rambly but there's some stuff in there.

I'm only up to page 11 but so far there seems to be a dynamic where glitch does the questioning and trendall does the answering and I'm not the most fond of it

Lots of resistance to this trendall wagon

I think we are on the right track

Spoiler: NoPoint on Trendall

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

the question is more why did you not vote in general?

By not voting and seeing how people react to that

, I am participating in the beginning stages of the game just as much as anybody else is.

I feel that this is a little bit contrived. It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked. Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

VOTE: bob

Not enough drama
Lockscum

VOTE: bob

This blind vote leaves me feeling flubber is town. The fourth vote on the first rvs wagon is almost always from town especially the more blind it is. As scum tend to have trepidation when voting a townie on the first rvs wagon i find. They might vote early or after the ice is broken but not that on the tipping point between being nearer no votes and being near exec.

Based on this response to the wagon I'm leaning town on Bob because he's showing scum-hunting intent rather than self-preservation.

t doesn't seem to be doing much

How do you know? I could have figured out who all the mafia are by now for all you know.

This seems defensive. Keeping knowledge and even reads and opinions secret are bad for town and good for scum.

Agree with what Noraa says in post #88, I thought the same thing too before she said it.

VOTE: Glitch

This feels really sheepish. Which part of Nora's post do you agree with? Why do you think scum-Glitch would necessarily try to push on Nora when you are his biggest suspect?

VOTE: Vote:Trendall

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked. Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Yes, virtually all of them as far as I can remember. Certainly all the ones I've played this year. A person can easily look this up.

I checked 3 of your latest games.
The latest game you did RV on your first post and was town.
Two games before you did not RV and was scum in one and town in another.
But you didn't mention

not voting on purpose to facilitate discussion

on any of the games so I'm still inclined to believe you made it up.

Games where I don’t post a random vote in my first post as town are Newbies 977, 989, 1024, 1053, 1066, 1084, 1793, 1893, and 2035. So I’ve been doing exactly this for about ten years. Which again, anybody could have easily looked up. Unless they didn’t actually care and just wanted to cast suspicion on me, I guess.

In games 1075 and 1094, I place a random vote for people who don’t have avatars, but both of these games are from 2011 and I wouldn’t care about this sort of thing nowadays.

It's completely ok imo to not RV in the first post. I'm more concerned about the contrived reason you gave for not RV-ing. Why didn't you just say you do it all the time and quote your games?

the question is more why did you not vote in general?

By not voting and seeing how people react to that, I am participating in the beginning stages of the game just as much as anybody else is.

Yes you did, but this is your initial reaction

Nora, doing stupid things is fine but having un-genuine reactions when asked about said stupid things is pretty scummy. Also not sure why you're white-knighting Trendall here after a whole lot of fluff postings.

I'd like to take all the credit for moving us out of RVS thank you very much.
All jokes aside, I think I have fluffed but I also think I have posted lots of game advancing(even if only a little ) content

What game advancing contents are you talking about .. I've yet to seen you post anything substantial despite all the fluff and you haven't moved your vote at all from RVS.

Yes which there is nothing wrong with.

There is nothing wrong with it except for the high likelihood that you made it up on the spot. At the very least it's a bit weird and defensive.

Unless they didn’t actually care and just wanted to cast suspicion on me, I guess.

Do you consider it AI to cast suspicion on players in the first 5 pages without any reason to suspect them?

Can you clarify AI? Sorry, old-fashioned player here.
Edit: Got it

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Weird.

This seems defensive. Keeping knowledge and even reads and opinions secret are bad for town and good for scum.

The post was clearly in jest - you even said it yourself - "thoughts about shits and gigglez". This is weak and weird.

Is there any particular aspect of it you find weak and weird? The logic of your post eludes me.

Which part of Nora's post do you agree with?

Why is this important? What produces town to say that they like X part and scum to say they have Y part?

It's important because I am trying to gauge whether Trendall's vote on Glitch was because Trendall genuinely thought Glitch was scum or because he was trying to start an opportunistic counter wagon to save himself. When people sheep votes without adding to the evidence or thoughts behind their vote, it's generally not a town sign.

Are you saying that you only random vote as scum? That would be a pretty lame way to play.

No, I've only drawn a mafia sided role on this site once. And in that game I never placed a random vote at the start of the game. Why would I ever do what you're suggesting?

Do you see my point Trendall? From my perspective, the only time you were scum you didn't place a random vote and in this game you didn't place a random vote PLUS making up a strange reason for not placing that vote.

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Now, as much as your pocket is enticing, I'm gonna have to pass.
What makes you think scum wouldn't participate in shits and gigglez early on? I do agree about the bob wagon though.

In my experience, scum usually stay behind the scene, stall the game and make town lynch randomly. That being said, I only think the shit and giggles are slight town sign not overwhelming.

I feel that this is a little bit contrived.

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked.

Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Great point here; I hadn't really figured out how to put that into words but I think this is accurate. I'm just trying to sort between whether Trendall's play is newbish, playstyle, or AI.

I don't think Trendall is new he has loads of games. It is fair to say that he does abstain from RV in a lot of his games as town and scum, so I don't see why he has to shut down as town when suspicion was thrown his way.
Edit: After reading through his wall of post, I suppose it is possible that Trendall was just a super defensive town player. Scum is slightly more likely to make things up under pressure but it would be an overstatement to say town never does this.

If we're struggling to get serious stuff going, how about we get no one today and try on the next day? We'll have a night of information then to work things out VOTE: Skip?

I don't think this is a good idea. If we lynch scum it's great. If we mislynch at the very least we have some information. NL is not good.

But also, glitch, don't tunnel 9 pages in...
its just not a good idea imo and it feels bad being tunneled early on.

Isn't this the point though. Tunneling helps bring out emotions and thoughts that are difficult to hide. Then town can analyze them as a collective to distinguish between town and scum. I'm little bit harsh here but if you feel personally offended then mafia might not be a great game for you.

If he truly thought I were scum, he would engage me, ask me question, poke around, and then case me. But he doesn't.

So this is the crux of the problem for me, the guy's way of playing this game is going 'mafia act like this, and town act like this', and in reality people act in all different ways irrespective of their alignment due to personality styles and play styles and whatever else. So I know already, if I don't 'act right', he's going to think I'm mafia, and if I do make any attempt to 'act right' he'll accuse me of contriving reasons and so forth, he's completely inconsistent with what he wants from me. So I'm just stuck here, aren't I? There's nothing I can do about it other than hope that if I get lynched the other players in the game are capable of interpreting what's happened.

So did you make an attempt to "act right" when you made that post about not RV-ing to bring up discussion? Honestly I can think of ways you could have done that as town or scum so shutting down and refusing to communicate only cause people to suspect you more.

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

we can maybe be friends actually, could u elaborate on this?

It seems to me Noraa is trying really hard to strike a balance between deflecting the Trendall accusations without seeming like they are buddied. See post 198.

I agree with this. I think post 198 even indicate Nora scum even in the case Trendall is town. It's just very weird to white-knight someone as if you knew their alignment.

@Wall of text between Glitch and Trendall: This actually makes me feel a little better about Trendall since his post does seem emotionally coherent. For now I feel the trendall wagon has been productive.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Nora
Crimes include fluff posting, white-knighting for no reason and constant emotional appeal.

Well, on my part it was just this relentless stream of excellent well argued points that could not more clearly have come from a town-sided player. I mean I'm sure for anybody reading it...it must have been like 'woah this guy couldn't be more town', and then I'd post another post and it'd be like 'shiiiit I didn't even know it was

possible

for a player to be that obviously aligned with the town, this is amazing, what a great player'.

Glitch was pretty towny too. I'm not sure whether he thinks I'm town or mafia at this point or how confident he is about anything, but he did unvote me because I guess he felt like he got everything he needed to from that avenue of inquiry for now.

So basically at this point you have a very strong town read on me and a fairly confident town read on Glitch too.

Then again this post feels super odd, like a gloat when you've managed to stave off pressure as scum.

This is a prod dodge. It seems like a lot of content has been generated, I'm taking a close look in 4 hours

13 pages in 3 days is rookie numbers. Last mini we had like a 150+ page day 1.

LOL xD What happened to the meta. In my days, people get lynched for posting random bs [/quote]

Spoiler: Keita on Trendall

I’m going to go ahead and VOTE: Trendall

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

Why does it feel like Trendall and Noraa are both scum?
If Trendall flips scum I would be inclined to vote Noraa next.

we can maybe be friends actually, could u elaborate on this?

It seems to me Noraa is trying really hard to strike a balance between deflecting the Trendall accusations without seeming like they are buddied. See post 198.

Noraa, if you had to choose which of Glitch v Trendall is the scum and why?

Spoiler: PLUSjoyed's on Trendall

Sorry but Glitch is all rigid-thinking and acronyms, his analysis is a nightmare, he's probably mafia anyway, there's no way that I'm answering any of those questions that he asked me.

thats not a good sign

This guy has no idea how to find mafia whatsoever.

do you 2 have a messy history together or do you not know glitch?

I'm on glitches side with this one
I don't think he's tunneling, I do think Trendall is being a tad uncooperative. Idk what to make of that

I also wanna note that flub dissappeared after I voted them. Seems kinda scummy.

VOTE: trendall

I'm on glitches side with this one
I don't think he's tunneling, I do think Trendall is being a tad uncooperative. Idk what to make of that

I also wanna note that flub dissappeared after I voted them. Seems kinda scummy.

VOTE: trendall

WOAH don't like this.

Picking sides why? You say in this post you don't know what to make of trendall (despite voting them) so does this mean you townread glitch? Or you agree with his logic, but not so far as to actually scumread trendall? Looks like a shameful pocket attempt on glitch

ehhh it was more getting something to happen during rvs

Ratings:
Flub: D
NoPoint: A+
Keita: C-
PLUSjoyed: D-

I'm still staying on Noraa at this point but I will compromise onto {PLUSjoyed / derp} and am open to discussions on JohnnyFarrar, Flub, and maybe Keita.

Just being honest though I would love to just PL derp today because of how inaccurate our shot is going to be anyway and (no offense) but scum will let that slot live until endgame with the shallow and non-threatening playstyle. If we have a D1 lynch that we are going to be the least accurate with we could at least redeem it for something useful that could help us in endgame. I promise I'm not trying to be rude or mean at all but I am trying to play the game to win. There's no way to sort derp and 86ing that slot today would probably be my biggest preference. Noraa would be good too. Others are considerable.

[Glitch]

Long story short because I want to go to bed:

• Flub gets a D because the way he handles that situation is so surface and not hunting at all. Just reactionary. D
  
• NoPoint is involved, interested, and hunting. A+
  
• Keita's playstyle is hard for me to read through. There's not a lot here and feels pretty null. C-
  
• PLUSjoyed's handling to the situation felt opportunistic and lazy. D-

[Glitch]

I think Hiraki is a townie because he writes really long posts which he could've split up if he wanted to which would make him look more active and townier, but he doesn't care about looking that way

Activity is not alignment indicative.

[Glitch]

where th is beeboy

[Glitch]

n

o

p

o

i

n

t

T

r

e

n

d

a

l

l

H

i

r

a

k

i

K

e

i

t

a

S

t

a

a

r

l

i

n

g

F

l

u

b

H

o

p

k

i

r

k

b

e

e

b

o

y

J

o

h

n

n

y

D

e

r

p

N

o

r

a

a

P

l

u

s

J

O

Y

E

D

[Glitch]

^Brackets being TR, TL, No read, SL, SR.

[Glitch]

Hopkirk hates how I post and then posts like me lol. Bruh don't ever play with Norwegian if you dont like tons of one liners. Nothing wrong with how we play or post. We may post a lot but it isn't spam and if it weren't broken up it would be wall wars.

I like your thought of Staarling being an alt but your confidence on your TR on that slot is freaking weird to me. I also think your SR of nopoint is terrible and you haven't given any explanation at all. Your TR of Plusjoyed is also super shallow and while I'm trying not to SR you for just having opposite reads than me I am struggling with your reads because there isn't a case you've made on town/PJ or scum!no point.

Hirakis reads are almost all great.

Your opposition to my derp PL is non committal.
You and Trendalls relationship makes me slightly raise an eyebrow.

Noraa yes as I sort through who was on the Trendall wagon I'm clarifying reads and sorting players. And after that you're still my top pick.

Hopkirk what was underwhelming about my self meta?

JUMBLED THOUGHTS EVERYWHERE

[Glitch]

Why did you back off Trendall glitch?

Because his responses felt townie to me. He made excellent points about understanding play style and his stubbornness and the later cooperative nature both feel townie to me.

[Glitch]

Why did you back off Trendall glitch?

Because his responses felt townie to me. He made excellent points about understanding play style and his stubbornness and the later cooperative nature both feel townie to me.

From what I understand, ur play has been like "agree with me or else"

Is there a new post of mine you want to address or a new point you want to make? Or are you just broken recording what Trendall has said about me all along?

[Glitch]

Like I'm not trying to sound sharp but you're throwing shade at me without making an actual argument.

[Glitch]

Is there a new post of mine you want to address or a new point you want to make? Or are you just broken recording what Trendall has said about me all along?

@Noraa

[Glitch]

I don't like Glitch or Keita. I'm not gonna even try to engage Glitch rn cuz frankly, its just frustrating and I have no interest spending my time talking to a wall.

You keep repeating the same thing about me and it's really irritating because you're trying to make look bad with a trash case, and yet it is swaying people's read on me based on inaccurate information (derp being a recent example). You're painting me as this arrogant, hard headed crank, like I think I'm the only one who could be right, and that I refuse to consider other people's perspectives. It's a misrep of how I have played considering that my 1v1 with Trendall ended with me conceding the fact that he made a good point about playstyls. I recognized that I was not fully accurate and had something to learn from Trendall, and yet here we are a week later and you're still going on about how "Glitch just has to be right all the time and if you step out of line then he will SR you." It's honestly bullshit and it pisses me off.

[Glitch]

My read on derp is turning around a bit and clearly the wagon on Noraa isn't going to actually happen. Looks like of all my SLs and SRs the easiest to lynch would be +j so I'll go there for now. I would be happy with a lim on this slot.

VOTE: Plusjoyed

[Glitch]

VOTE: Derp

I knew we should have PL'd this D1. Wtaf was that?

[Glitch]

I can't catch up right now, life is too busy. Can I have a quick summary of where we are at? Is Derp off the table? Are we actually believing in 2 TOWN docs? From the little bit I have been able to play this game I am convinced Hopkirk is town.

[Glitch]

Maf Doc could be real and I don't think it's been brought up yet. It would make sense if there's an enabler and a doc on each side and then for example the game could be stacked with some other town PRs that can't directly out the maf doc (gunsmith or tracker). It could balance it out nicely.

Regardless of the rest of setup spec I still don't buy derp's cc as town. Derp has shown a level of competency that demonstrates he has the ability to pull off what he has done so far as a maf doc. I honestly believe that's what's going on here. My vote stays

[Glitch]

Maf Doc could be real and I don't think it's been brought up yet. It would make sense if there's an enabler and a doc on each side and then for example the game could be stacked with some other town PRs that can't directly out the maf doc (gunsmith or tracker). It could balance it out nicely.

Regardless of the rest of setup spec I still don't buy derp's cc as town. Derp has shown a level of competency that demonstrates he has the ability to pull off what he has done so far as a maf doc. I honestly believe that's what's going on here. My vote stays

slime brought it up earlier but can you explain why derp doesn't seem towny? This above paragraph doesn't help too much.

Oh my bad sorry. I have been struggling with time to play and skimmed.

It's more based on set up spec than anything. 2 docs is wild but a maf doc isn't.

[Glitch]

I just can't believe we had a D1 doc claim, a D1 CC, we yeeted an actual town Doc and I'm the only one voting the CC'er. The scum will clearly try to steer this conversation to make it feel like the overall consensus is to just leave derp alone if he is actually scum.

We have GOT to flip Derp.
And we are NOT flipping Hopkirk.

[Glitch]

Slime keeps posting a bracketed grouping of people. What is this group? Lynch pool? Town block?

[Glitch]

Noraa's posts feel very towny today. Derp's posts feel towny too but the CC is my hangup and I don't want to let that wagon go. Who is willing to lim derp today?

Who is against it?

[Glitch]

Did I miss the solid case on nopo or is it just a really weak case?

[Glitch]

Why would derp bother fakeclaiming doctor though in order to push through an elimination on somebody who was always going to get lynched anyway, given that it was near the end of the day and no one was active enough for the votes to change fast? Like they could have just left it and not claimed anything and PlusJOYED still would have been eliminated just the same.

But the gambit could become not so crazy when you plan on an argument exactly like this that the scum could easily have decided to make themselves or simply count on town to make it because of the WIFOM.

I think abandoning the simple rule of thumb of lynching a CC when the flipped claim is green is what the scum want and are hoping for. If I am wrong I will humbly admit it but I truly believe straying from classic, standard strategy is not how we should proceed.

[Glitch]

Hey, sorry for inactivity. Don’t really know why we’re keeping this slot around. VOTE: Staarling

Oh wow there went any TL

I'd vote there today

[Glitch]

There being Keita

[Glitch]

Intent to Hammer

Keita claim up.
This flash wagon was crazy quick but I am down with it because I've lost all steam and am 100% ready for a flip.

[Glitch]

Oh I thought it was L1

Can we get a VC official before I vote? I am pretty sure after review Keita is at 4 and if so I will vote there. If not and it is L1 then my intent to hammer remains.

[Glitch]

VOTE: Keita

[Glitch]

I haven't caught up yet but my solve when I get back here is going to be:

(D1 elim wagon)
+ (D2 elim wagon)
- dead people
- Hopkirk and Glitch

That is my scum pool today whoever that is so far. I'll be back later when I have time with names.

[Glitch]

Slime is trully a weird kill. I'd think the scums would ... be more worried about the outed prs?

Maybe we need to look at Slime's reads and see if their reads were a bigger threat to the scum than the town PRs. I'll dive there soon. Catching up now and responding as I go.

[Glitch]

sometimes derp likes basic logic so derp would like to propose the idea that at least 1 scum was on both of the final yeet wagons

so for day 1:
PlusJOYED (7) - derp, JohnnyFarrar, Glitch, Hiraki, Flubbernugget, Noraa, Hopkirk

remove the dear and innocent derp and hiraki

derp really wants to believe hopkirk is town, derp believes his potential enabler is playing a town game but derp will say what he said yesterday that derps main concern is that he believes the role makes more sense as a scum role
but derp wants to believe in hopkirk and will treat him as town

Seems we have the same idea to create the right pool by PoE. I am okay enough with this stance on Hopkirk. I don't agree with it but as long as you're treating him as town right now I think you, me, and Hopkirk together can possibly form enough of a town block to control the game state here. I need to finish my catchup and evaluation of the elim wagons first to see if I would be okay with adding you to my town block but from my skimming earlier, I'm getting town vibes from you. I'm still struggling with the double doctor WIFOM a lot though so let me process this out a bit as I think out loud.

derp thought noraa was a dirty scum day 1 due to the awkwardness and weird reaction to the claims, but when derp skimmed through some of her games derp realised that the awkwardness did not really seem to be alignment indicative, derp also got the impression that noraa is a bit more reactionary, omgusy and flails when pressured as scum which dear derp did not really feel has been the case for this game. derp is not going to pretend to have a strong meta read, but dear derp is leaning town on noraa

What made you feel that Noraa did not act reactionary, omgusy, and flaily when under pressure this game? You don't think she did?

I mean unless I'm remembering wrong that's her go-to regardless of alignment and she did that with me early game when she refused to continue engaging me all because I SR'd her and she couldn't present a decent argument back. It was just OMGUS and reacts. I'm not sure I believe that's AI for her but if you do, shouldn't you be suspecting her?

now glitch is an interesting one because dear derp thought glitchs play was town day 1 but day 2 was more on the null side because glitch focused a bit too much on dear derp day 2 which in itself is a reasonable stance, however he seemed to ignore everything else that happened during the day which makes derp concerned and derp also mentioned this early on last day that glitch might have used it as an excuse to not attempt to contribute or game solve by simply tunneling on something more mechanical,
but still the dear derp still believes that glitch is slightly more likely to be town

That's a fair take if you haven't played with me before. I think you have to understand how much I am still hung up on this double doctors idea. The WIFOM is so intense, even still. Like all day when I've thought about this game I've thought about how much it would make sense to just come back and continue tunneling you all because I think your claim is bullshit. But the more of your posts I read the more I'm town vibing with them which makes this so much more complex and adds so many layers.

[Glitch]

actually hopkirk derp is going through day 1 again and once again derp is really bothered with the way u townread plus early on and called him obv town, but then when asked to explain it u retracted it and said it wasnt a strong read. it just feels like such a tmi read to throw out for pocketing or town cred on a potential misyeet bait

derp really wants to believe u are town for ur overall play and just because it makes today easier, so please just help fix derps paranoia

We're not going to lynch Hopkirk today. If you want to sort that slot, that's fine, but an elimination there isn't happening today.

[Glitch]

okay actually unfortunately derp has to retract his townread on noraa. derp is not sure she is scum but derp does not like how noraa two days in a row opted for what the easy play as in day 1 she wanted to yeet keita over flubber for no apparent reason even when it was near deadline, the active people around including the doc claim that she believed voted there and wanted to yeet him and then yesterday when she there was a wagon on nopoint she said she would stick with her scumreads on staarling and keita, both players who are very easy to yeet because they are unlikely to offer much resistance since one is a new player and the other one is hectic trolling

actually what derp is going to do is reset all of his reads and go over this game again because dear derp is being dumb at the moment

Noraa + Flubber would be interesting. I really should have kept up my tunnel on Noraa early game. I feel like that slot being flipped would be better at this stage in the game than Keita for sure.

[Glitch]

Clarification: My post above is not at all meant as an attack on you, Noraa, and wasn't saying your play is bad. I'm just saying your slot this game is much harder for me to actually make heads or tails of and a flip on your slot would be more valuable to me than it was on Keita's.

[Glitch]

Glitch might be right that ur just scum. Glitch come talk to me.

Noraa honey you HAVE to stop suspecting people every time they question your alignment. I'm trying to sort derp too but just because you're under someone's microscope doesn't mean you should turn your opinion of them around.

[Glitch]

so what is ur actual read on flubber

Null.

okay noraa but town are in a shitty position so how about u give dear derp an actual elaborate read

I just freakin love derp all page this page

[Glitch]

so what is ur actual read on flubber

Null.

okay noraa but town are in a shitty position so how about u give dear derp an actual elaborate read

Flubber has what 50 posts?
The only person SRing him really doesn't even have a case on him imo.
If you dont take null as an answer, I can just make the default Town.
Theres no way to read a slot that's not engaging. The reason why I settled on Keita is because no one was doing anything yesterday and I had a SR on Keita from day 1. No one is talking. I can't read silent people :/
not that skilled yet, derpy.

So you can't read a slot with 50 posts because they only have 50 posts, but you can read Keita who had even fewer posts enough to SR them? This feels manipulative and opportunistic.

[Glitch]

How the fuck can you say 'he only has 50 posts' as a reason not to have a read on someone after you just voted to lethal a first time player with 15?

See I don't think the problem lies in the fact that Noraa wanted to lynch Keita. It was close to the deadline and she was just desperate for a lynch; that's fair and I don't think that's scummy. But would I do have a problem with is that she said she couldn't get a clear read on one player because he only had 50 posts, but she

specifically said she had a SR on Keita

, a player with 15 posts. Something doesn't line up there. I don't get it.

[Glitch]

noraa just to make it clear derps concern is that it feels to derp like u never actually tried to evaluate flubber even though u have been indirectly defending him two days in a row

I've had the Noraa + Flub scum team idea flash into my head a few times this evening. hmmm

[Glitch]

I mean this case isn't even better than my Keita case....
To sum it up, ur whole case is "he has no content"
Thats kind of the case for almost everyone here?

While Noraa's content has been underwhelming, this post is kinda accurate. The case on Flub that Hopkirk made and quoted was not the strongest. Hopkirk is locktown but the flub argument isn't super solid. It's something but... JUST something.

[Glitch]

1) why are you getting so heated?
2) Flubber is null and will stay null unless I see something that I believe is AI from him.

this stance in itself is fine noraa, but the issue is that u still seem to defend someone u have a null read on (and someone u claim u cant read due to him doing the exact same thing as the two players u are scumreading), no matter what ur alignment is this makes noraa look really sketchyyyyyyyyy

Tinfoil I don't believe but if it's true they should win anyway: What if derp and Hopkirk are scum together playing good cop, bad cop with Noraa to try and tear her down and emotionally take her out of the game.

[Glitch]

So you're planning to do nothing to develop any scumreads on anyone while spending the whole day doing nothing useful then join a wagon at deadline and complain nobody's doing anything in the game for a third day straight?

I'm not engaging u anymore. ur pissing me off.

No. Im putting this game on the back burner. Learn to appreciate an active noraa bc I stop whenever I want to.

If you're going to act like this then you need to replace out. This is juvenile and you do it all the time. Any time you're under pressure you get mad.

This is Mafia. You sign up to be under scrutiny. If you don't like it, you need to not play.

[Glitch]

I'm crashing hard. I wanted to do more but I am so sleepy and I was falling asleep as I caught up. I'll come back tomorrow after work.

[Glitch]

PlusJOYED (7) - derp, JohnnyFarrar, Glitch, Hiraki, Flubbernugget, Noraa, Hopkirk

Keita (6) - JohnnyFarrar, Staarling, The Slime Collective, Noraa, Glitch, nopointinactingup

So the lynch pools together minus dead people, me, and Hopkirk leaves:

derp, Johnny, Flub, Noraa, Staarling, nopo

This is my pool today. I know it's wide but that's where I'm at. I like the nopo slot, Staarling is null, and deep pings me as scummy and towny back and forth.

I want to understand the case on flub. Can someone link to a summary or make a quick one?

[Glitch]

Not sure how I feel about both Derp and Glitch completely disregarding the fact that Trendall was on the Keita wagon at the end there.

Wait can you elaborate?

Trendall wasn't on the Keita wagon at all on D2 unless I missed something. If he was on it at the end I want to know but VCs don't reflect that. What am I missing?

[Glitch]

derp, Johnny, Flub, Noraa, Staarling, nopo

Derp is high efforting with decent reads but the level of effort gives me gut scum vibes and I can't pin why. I'm also struggling not to just immediately want to jump at derp for the CC STILL.

Johnny gives me weird vibes but I think it's just the avatar and the fact that I only have like 10 minutes a day to play this game this week.

Flub and Staarling are null but I will get more of a read on them when I can put some effort into this game again which will be either tomorrow after work or Sunday evening. Sorry, I'm just stretched really thin right now with a new job working 60 hours a week and I'm playing 2 games and modding one. So much to do.

Nopo still strikes me as town even this much into the game. I know that's been either a TL or a TR from me from the start but I just feel like solid effort coming from that slot is town indicative and it seems they are genuinely trying to solve.

At this point my lack of ability to focus on this game leaves me in a position where my reads are not as strong as they could be either way but regardless of that I would still be happy with a derp flip. Johnny just voted there which makes me feel like MAYBE we could get some traction there so hell, let's do it.

VOTE: Derp

[Glitch]

Right now my town bin is Hopkirk and Nopo; trendall's application is pending.

I want to eliminate Noraa but I'm trying to figure out if it's because I SR her or if I just am annoyed with how she plays and think it's really immature. That line is blurry for me so Derp it is. No offense meant to Noraa, I have no ill will against you, our playstyles just don't mesh well.

[Glitch]

Glitch
Hopkirk

Nopo

Trendall

Flub
Staarling

Johnny

Noraa

derp

[Glitch]

also derp said u should either have yeeted me yesterday or believe in derp, because choosing to pursue something as illogical as thinking derp would cc a doc claim d1 as scum is something makes no sense, only reason to misyeet derp would be due to policy which should have happened yesterday

See this doesn't sit well with me. You are saying it wad a good idea D3 for us to lynch you. That it was good strategy.

But if memory serves, you specifically threw shade at me for relentlessly being focused on you and wanting to lynch you D2. Which is it?

You can't say it was good strategy to lynch you D2 now when before you said I wasn't towny for wanting to lynch you D2.

[Glitch]

There's scum in {hop, me, derp} off of 4 pr towns being unprecedented for normals.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You're saying that 4 town PRs in a mini is abnormal and therefore the three of you must have scum?

That's fine but please confirm that's what you were trying to say. Hopkirk is locktown and we are not lynching him at all. So that puts it between you and derp.

I think it is unfair to say that Hopkirk's role is scum. What if he is town Doc enabler and pj was town Doc and derp is scum doc? I really think this is what the case is.

And if derp flips green then we flip flub.

[Glitch]

Or is flub a maf goon willing to 1v1 and for in order to get town PR derp eliminated?

[Glitch]

Happy birthday, Noraa. I hope your day is fun and enjoyable.

[Glitch]

Anyway

HARDCLAIM ROLE COP

What are your results so far

[Glitch]

I'm one shot gunsmith and Hopkirk has no gun. I asked mod for clarification and the hypothetical role of Mafia Doc Enabler would hold a gun. Hopkirk is not scum.

[Glitch]

I have a modifier I haven't revealed yet but my one shot is already used up so scum have no reason to kill me tonight since my role is no longer a threat. Flubber should role cop me tonight and reveal what my modifier is tomorrow and then I'll confirm.

[Glitch]

It would be great if someone else has an ability to confirm the roll top with an identity that has not been fully revealed yet. I know that math claim is important right now so I do not oppose that but if anyone has a modifier or some sort of detail to their role that they can not out during mass claim then we can force Flubber into a WIFOM between me and the other person. If Flubber truly is scum then he could just kill me tonight and have that beat his way out having two roll- cop me. The more I think about it though, the more it doesn't really help. Sorry I'm thinking through this and doing text to tight while I drive. As I'm thinking through it even if we confirm him as roll cop I don't know that it helps much with his alignment because I've never seen a town roll cop only scum role cop. I'm down with trying to confirm him as role cop anyways but even if we do I don't know that it just means he's lock town.

[Glitch]

Role cop***

[Glitch]

Ew that sounds like an awful role

Yes if you read my ISO I immediately lock in on Hopkirk as town and have remained steadfast on that since.

Re: derp's response to me -- that's actually a really good response and I am going to choose to let go of my derp paranoia.

Can Trendall, Staarling, and Johnny all provide a full reads list?

[Glitch]

Johnny what is your read on me and Noraa?

[Glitch]

vanilla townie!!
my suspects are Noraa and Flubber

Why?
Who are your TRs?
What's your read on Johnny, Hopkirk, me, and nopo?

[Glitch]

What is Trendall's readslist?

[Glitch]

Here. I want Trendall, Staarling, Johnny, derp, and Flubber to provide a full reads list. Here's a template you can use. Just copy and paste the names into the slots however you want.

Reads List

Town Read

-
-
-

Null Read

-
-
-

Scum Read

-
-
-

Playerlist

derp
Noraa
Glitch
Trendall
JohnnyFarrar
Flubbernugget
Staarling
Hopkirk
nopointinactingup

Here's the format to copy and use in your own post:

Code: Select all

[mech=Reads List][b][color=green]Town Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b][color=grey]Null Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b][color=red]Scum Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b]Playerlist[/b]
derp
Noraa
Glitch
Trendall
JohnnyFarrar
Flubbernugget
Staarling
Hopkirk
nopointinactingup[/mech]

[Glitch]

Hopkirk's would be good too in case scum kill you tonight since you're locktown. It'd be good to have ranked reads to look back on in case.

[Glitch]

i suppose

third person slip, must be caught scum

lolol

[Glitch]

Hopkirk: because of all the PR claims derps is still the most out there and freakin weird. But if that won't happen I'm fine with Staarling, Trendall, or VOTE: Johnny.

[Glitch]

Im conflicted on Flubber. The claim seems reasonable but I'm just confused more than anything at this point. Ill compromise on that if we run out of time but would prefer Johnny.

[Glitch]

VOTE: Staarling

[Glitch]

UNVOTE:
Sorry I'm being impulsive and lazy and I need to stop.

[Glitch]

Hopkirk can you link to the deepwolf usage pls?

[Glitch]

I know I keep flip flopping on things but my reads really suck this game and I'm having trouble finding the mental fortitude to high effort this thing.

But what I do know is that in my last completed game which was Large 229, I singlehandedly lost the game for town by wrongly casting my vote which was the swing vote in lylo. The remaining players had an unrealistically large amount of claimed town PRs that certainly had at least one liar in it. But I stupidly voted for a player outside that pool that claimed (and was) VT because I didn't think things through properly.

We are in the same situation here. All the PR claims can't be true and we need to not lynch outside of that.

I'll probably end up jumping on flubber now but I need to reasses things and sort my reads within the list of PR claims.

[Glitch]

If you do a ctrl+F then you find that it's not true that Staarling ever used the word 'deepwolf'

Yeah I was trying to look through Staarling's other games but there's only one and I didn't check to see if it was ongoing or not so I won't talk about it. I'm on my phone so I don't have control F
D:

[Glitch]

Did we ever finish the discussion of whether anyone has ever seen a town role cop? Or is that a predominantly mafia role?

Why would town need to know the role but not alignment of another player? What utility does that have for town?

Also, the claimed PRs are me, Flub, derp, and Hopkirk right?

[Glitch]

I know I'm town and I know Hop is town based on my check. And even if it isn't just the simple fact that I gun checked him, he is the only locktown in the game across the board and there's no way scum will get a day lynch on that slot at all, so logically he will be the NK tonight more than likely unless the scum try to WIFOM "why is hop still alive?" But hop is cleared as soon as I am flipped and confirmed as gunsmith. So no NK really makes sense except Hop tonight so there's no point in lynching there even outside of the fact that I massively TR him and investigated him. That leaves me at {Flubber, derp} and derp is clearly not getting the pressure he should. Do unless we can reconsider wagoning derp I guess I'll vote flubber. Need to check VCs to see if I'm close to hammer first.

[Glitch]

Why the fuck did scum not NK derp wtf

[Glitch]

Cause they could push the counterclaim to get derp lynched later??

[Glitch]

i don't remember using that!!
is that a werewolf type of mafia that's underwater?

This post gives me full of shit vibes though just saying

[Glitch]

I know I'm town and I know Hop is town based on my check. And even if it isn't just the simple fact that I gun checked him, he is the only locktown in the game across the board and there's no way scum will get a day lynch on that slot at all, so logically he will be the NK tonight more than likely unless the scum try to WIFOM "why is hop still alive?" But hop is cleared as soon as I am flipped and confirmed as gunsmith. So no NK really makes sense except Hop tonight so there's no point in lynching there even outside of the fact that I massively TR him and investigated him. That leaves me at {Flubber, derp} and derp is clearly not getting the pressure he should. Do unless we can reconsider wagoning derp I guess I'll vote flubber. Need to check VCs to see if I'm close to hammer first.

Oh btw I wanted to say something. Doubt its of importance but when you said this, I immediately thought of one of my past mini normals where I was mafia doc and town had a gunsmith. The gunsmith doesn't ever detect a gun on a mafia doc. I mean I highly highly doubt hoppy is a mafia doc but I thought I'd share this anyways.

Yes, thank you for that, I had messaged JV to specifically ask about that, and also asked if a Mafia Doctor Enabler would come back to me as negative for a gun. JV said that was not the case, that hypothetically, a Mafia Doctor Enabler who is checked by a gunsmith would return a result POSITIVE for a gun. I got negative so unless he's maf doc, he is town.

And if there's a maf doc in this game, it's freaking derp, no doubt about that.

[Glitch]

What is the deadline supposed to be, JV? I don't want a panic hammer due to deadline error but I also don't want a no lynch due to deadline error either.

[Glitch]

If there actually is a deadline error can we request or vote on an brief extension just to get today's hammer in line properly?

[Glitch]

Here. I want Trendall, Staarling, Johnny, derp, and Flubber to provide a full reads list. Here's a template you can use. Just copy and paste the names into the slots however you want.

Reads List

Town Read

-
-
-

Null Read

-
-
-

Scum Read

-
-
-

Playerlist

derp
Noraa
Glitch
Trendall
JohnnyFarrar
Flubbernugget
Staarling
Hopkirk
nopointinactingup

Here's the format to copy and use in your own post:

Code: Select all

[mech=Reads List][b][color=green]Town Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b][color=grey]Null Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b][color=red]Scum Read[/color][/b]
-
-
-

[b]Playerlist[/b]
derp
Noraa
Glitch
Trendall
JohnnyFarrar
Flubbernugget
Staarling
Hopkirk
nopointinactingup[/mech]

I still think this should happen. Especially flubber before he is flipped.

[Glitch]

Johnny what is your suspicion on derp based in?

Seems like derp is the talk of the town. I would like to know everyone's take on that slot and for everyone to answer clearly whether they would like derp to be the next elimination or not (at this point in the game).

Johnny, can you start? Why do you SR derp and is your SR enough to make you want that slot eliminated?

[Glitch]

Damn I should never have let up on Noraa. Shit.

I was actually odd night and investigated Derp N3. Wasnt gonna say anything unless derp was on the chopping block. Fun game though, I enjoyed playing with y'all. Derp you were a lot of fun haha

[Glitch]

Had I not targeted derp it was gonna be Johnny. Damn double doctor setup screwed us all over lol

[Glitch]

I crumbed my role early on with a blitz of posts.

Spoiler: First letter of each post creates crumb

Yes, I take the Albert B Rampage approach to scum hunting and am highly accusatory. I did accuse you. It gets a response I need. This is a game of accusations and resolutions over and over again until the end. As a town player, you should be okay with being accused and not immediately be like "Omg why are flipping out on me! You just be scum!" It's okay. People need to sort each other and I saw hyper self awareness that made me want to call you on it.

I get the whole slipper throwing thing. I do it too. But both of us can work on not throwing it so hard.

Oh also, I wanted to reference this article from the wiki when I posted this but it was from my phone and I didn't have time to find it cause I was at work.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have. It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation. You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This has been successful for me in drawing out content that is AI. This article is not the ultimate standard by any stretch and is also highly controversial to some because of the tunnel-y nature of this strategy but it is one I have found to both enjoy and be successful.

Is this combined sheeping, iioa, AND OMGUS all at one time? And only 90 posts in? Hot damn!

Omgus is when you vote somebody

because

they voted for you, whereas I am voting for you for some other reason. If somebody says something and I agree with it because I already thought the same thing myself, that is not unreasonable, because the alternative is that as soon as somebody votes for one person, I'm then not allowed to also vote for that same person myself, because if I do I 'sheeped' them apparently.

Doing some catchup and replying to each thing I need to as I go. I know what OMGUS is. Voting someone who shaded, attacked, or voted you because they did so. The question is, are you doing that because I voted you and throwing it back at me makes you feel better or safer, or are you actually voting me because you believe I'm scum? Is there any of my content outside of what Noraa said in 88 that you have thoughts on?

I agree that voting with somebody because you agree with what they said is a legitimate move to make if you truly believe that you're voting scum. But unless you create content and are an active scum hunter, doing that suddenly is not towny and becomes scummy because it's totally sheeping. Sometimes town sheep. But scum LOVE to sheep. I just need to sort which you are.

If I was 'omgusing' then why did I never vote for the other guy when he voted me?

Do you think in order to OMGUS one player, you have to do so to all players?

@Thoughts about shits and gigglez at the beginning: I'd keep a note to myself that the 3 participants is leaning town based on the conversation. I also think it's a townish sign to start the first wagon quickly since scum benefit from stalling the game. Noraa, Gitch, Plus can be town for now.

Now, as much as your pocket is enticing, I'm gonna have to pass.
What makes you think scum wouldn't participate in shits and gigglez early on? I do agree about the bob wagon though.

@Glitch: Hi! 10 to 15 pages is a lot but thanks for clarifying

It may seem like it but we'll be there in no time. It doesn't mean there won't be serious content before. We're transitioning out of RVS right now. I just meant that in 10 or 15 pages we'll be at a point where almost everything is serious and there won't be a lot of shitposting going on. Usually happens in games after enough content has been generated.

I feel that this is a little bit contrived.

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked.

Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Great point here; I hadn't really figured out how to put that into words but I think this is accurate. I'm just trying to sort between whether Trendall's play is newbish, playstyle, or AI.

If I ever make a post myself about something that happened either in a past game or earlier on in the game I'm in, I'm always going to go back and double check what I've said to make sure I haven't misremembered anything, because either way as town or mafia it's going to reflect badly on me if I say something and then somebody else checks back and finds a contradiction.

How do you read someone who doesn't check and just goes off their memory? That's my problem; I don't care enough about being 100% consistent with what I've said in the past. If I contradict myself then I'll just clarify because it was probably a mistake. Being meticulous about checking yourself and staying consistent could even be a scumtell. Inconsistency is a towntell. Hyper consistency is a scumtell.

Plusjoyed was quick to come to Glitch's defense so I'mma note down that if one is mafia the other is also maybe mafia.

This would be a fair concern except that I bus the hell out of my teammates when I play scum. I freaking LOVE rolling scum but have just had bad luck of rolling green for so long on this site. BAGH

Howdy my fellow town aligned players.
How do you do on this fine evening?

hello it sure is nice to meet another town aligned player being a town aligned player myself, i am looking forward to do town aligned things together

Game advancing content, that's what this is right here folks. We should all learn a thing or two from derp.

unfortunately glitch is too overeager which us town aligned players are not so derp is definitely not being opportunistic at all whatsoever when joining that wagon

VOTE: glitch

"Unfortunately I'm too overeager?" Can you tell me what this means and what specifically you feel like is acting to eager? Trying to generate content and reads, sorting people, and contributing isn't eager, it's just trying to move the game forward.

It feels more like you thought of this reason when asked. Have you done this in any of your previous town games?

Yes, virtually all of them as far as I can remember. Certainly all the ones I've played this year. A person can easily look this up.

I checked 3 of your latest games.
The latest game you did RV on your first post and was town.
Two games before you did not RV and was scum in one and town in another.
But you didn't mention

not voting on purpose to facilitate discussion

on any of the games so I'm still inclined to believe you made it up.

NoPoint is rising to the top of my TRs. His posts so far seem like quality sorting. While this is not the strongest point, I like the effort being put in here that scum would not be required to put out at this point in the game.

You are reading in too hard for something said in the first 4 pages

Slightly worrisome, Noraa. Just because it's early game doesn't mean that it's not okay to put effort into it when people act scummy. It feels like you're advocating for everyone to just shitpost until some magical thing happens and then we can actually start playing mafia.

Mannnnn I'm crashing fast. I can't keep my eyes open but I am so close to being caught up.

Trendall (3) - Flubbernugget, Glitch, nopointinactingup

I like this wagon. This is a good wagon and 3 town on it.

Totally caught up now. I like this Trendall wagon a lot and am happy with my vote there. I'm gonna run a tally counter soon and see if I get anything decent from it.

Holy crap I posted way more than I thought I did. I'm going to bed now, goodnight friends!

[Glitch]

Lol Noraa no one was supposed to catch on, it was a crumb that I was going to point back to when I did a full claim. xD

[Glitch]

Yes nopo, I figured as soon as Hop flipped Even Night it was gonna totally be out that I was Odd Night.

[Glitch]

Is the Mafia PT published?