Mini Normal 2179 | ENDGAME

[MathBlade]

I don’t give scum what they want.

This is princess bride worthy.

You and Flavor Leaf each must drink a glass to exit a room. (Don't cheat the premise.) Flavor Leaf knows which is poisoned.

He tells you "Drink the one on your left."

Do you drink the one on your right, solely because you think Flavor is scum? If so, that makes you very easy to manipulate.

It depends on who he’s been hawking it to. Let’s call NPOM the drink on the left.

He was hawking NPOM scum soon as NPOM voted him in the 300s. He and Alch have been coordinated on this before I came in. It’s not a fair comparison.

[MathBlade]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

benhalkum

(7): Alchemist21, Flavor Leaf, superbowl9, Titus, NoPowerOverMe, benhalkum, OutWorldER |

ELIMINATED

Titus

(2): Non lmh, hessian

superbowl9

(2): Rannygazoo, Andresvmb

NoPowerOverMe

(1): Battle Mage

Not Voting

(1): wiyvern

Mod notes:

I am using Thesp's automated votecounter - please notify me if there are any errors.
hessian is V/LA until Sunday.
wiyvern will be prodded in the night. if they do not respond, they risk being replaced.

Ben wagon does have scum in Alch and FL and Outer

[MathBlade]

Probably fl ower Titus is the scumteam.

Possible but Alch is more likely and one of Titus/FL being town derp is more likely.

[MathBlade]

Look at the join date Titus. They’re a newb. They’re probably a me who suspects everyone who suspects them badly.

[MathBlade]

Let’s try this another way.

Assume NPOM scum and Outer town like you’re theorizing.

Why does NPOM scum claim a guilty on Outer who is town?

It’s a bad scum move unless preplanned agreed?

[MathBlade]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

[MathBlade]

Exactly. (Well minus the me lying part) This if NPOM scum is 100% designed for me to elim them. So if I assume NPOM is scum I don’t want to do that whoever scum is. NPOM could be scum but if we elim Outer we can demonstrate this is indeed what scum wanted or if I force scum to be on NPOM same thing occurs.

[MathBlade]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

I agree. NPOM if scum is absolutely a bus.

So if NPOM is scum I am going to force almost if not the entire scum team to do so.

[MathBlade]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

I agree. NPOM if scum is absolutely a bus.

So if NPOM is scum I am going to force almost if not the entire scum team to do so.

Except you're not.

Basic math

Two masons plus three mafia = 5.
Even if the rest of the town agreed, we'd still have to get a busser onto NPOM. That's why BM isn't voting NPOM today but he was yesterday.

That’s my point exactly.

If scum all dogpile on outer and outer flips town then we know NPOM was scum and not a bus or the busser has to move.

If scum all dogpile on NPOM then we know scum did.

Mainly we learn a lot going into elo by what scum do here.

[MathBlade]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

I agree. NPOM if scum is absolutely a bus.

So if NPOM is scum I am going to force almost if not the entire scum team to do so.

Except you're not.

Basic math

Two masons plus three mafia = 5.
Even if the rest of the town agreed, we'd still have to get a busser onto NPOM. That's why BM isn't voting NPOM today but he was yesterday.

That’s my point exactly.

If scum all dogpile on outer and outer flips town then we know NPOM was scum and not a bus or the busser has to move.

If scum all dogpile on NPOM then we know scum did.

Mainly we learn a lot going into elo by what scum do here.

So great, why can't we just all dogpile NPOM then?

Because then IF NPOM is scum we learn nothing.
If NPOM is town we then have to elim Outer and FL (or you) and Alch in quick succession which is most likely the scum team and the way you absolutely refuse to seriously consider than gives me 0 hope of that happening.

[MathBlade]

I can't wait to actually be scum against Math

I'd respond to this, but I'm just very frustrated with them.

It's getting right up there with being willing to policy them but we can't do that either. Either Mathblade comes around, or we likely lose this game.

That’s where I am at with you and NPOM

[MathBlade]

@Math, Right now, we need to just eliminate scum.

If Outer is town, we have to eliminate in quick succession and you won't do BattleMage soooo...

Let's take the scum where we can, then move to the next step. Scum will have to pair down the theories with the NK.

Yes.

So pretty much we’re fucked unless someone budges.

[MathBlade]

@Math, Right now, we need to just eliminate scum.

If Outer is town, we have to eliminate in quick succession and you won't do BattleMage soooo...

Let's take the scum where we can, then move to the next step. Scum will have to pair down the theories with the NK.

Yes.

So pretty much we’re fucked unless someone budges.

So, why don't you budge in the direction you think is actually possible? Like you're holding the game hostage for ideal instead of possible and town all has to compromise. I already am compromising off of Battle Mage.

As I already said

It’s between NPOM or Outer.

If who we’re not on gets elimmed scum is confirmed on it.
If who we’re on gets elimmed and is town we’re proven wrong and the read is shit.
If who we’re on gets elimmed and is scum then scum aren’t on it then this hard fought elim is proper and NPOM is likely town.

By joining you on what is possibly a miselim based on how Outer responded we learn nothing except I am a sucker for you begging despite ignoring there is no viable scenario scum elim does this except a bus

[MathBlade]

NPOM claimed Even-Night Neapolitan after claiming Vanilla yesterday, Not Vanilla on Outer.

Outer claimed Indecisive Doctor.

that's all the PR's.

Incorrect Ranny and I are masons

[MathBlade]

I'm fine with being elimmed tomorrow if OutWorldER flips town.

I don't really want either of you flipped.

I want NPOM or the Masons. If Outer is flipped, and is town, I will not be moving my vote off of Mathblade.

I'm non-negotiable on Outer, take from that what you will.

How'd you get from non-neogitatable on Outer from voting NPOM yesterday?

Now, you're defending NPOM. That screams that you're defending NPOM because you just need Math and you'll miseliminate whatever townie Math says to.

See Titus? Teams are forming

Me on Outer is a good thing right now.

[MathBlade]

it's like blatantly Battle Mage and NPOM, math

Then let’s see if we can get a “third” by me being an “idiot”. If you’re right another player will have to agree as I have told Ranny not to vote and to be hammers.

[MathBlade]

it's like blatantly Battle Mage and NPOM, math

Then let’s see if we can get a “third” by me being an “idiot”. If you’re right another player will have to agree as I have told Ranny not to vote and to be hammers.

What do you mean? If titus votes NPOM, he's at E-1. He isn't going to hammer. Stop blowing smoke.

Correct. Outer won’t be hammered either because Ranny won’t hammer until people have voted.

If anyone else hammers we know scum on those wagons.

Scum have to pick NPOM or Outer and they’re being forced to.

Then we can establish if NPOM is town or a scum proper or a scum bus and have much narrower worlds

Scum have to pick.

[MathBlade]

Battle Mage is setting up to change their claim too.

Then let them.

At this point mass claim is kinda required.

Pretty much it’s NPOM or Outer and scum have to make a stand here

[MathBlade]

it's like blatantly Battle Mage and NPOM, math

Then let’s see if we can get a “third” by me being an “idiot”. If you’re right another player will have to agree as I have told Ranny not to vote and to be hammers.

What do you mean? If titus votes NPOM, he's at E-1. He isn't going to hammer. Stop blowing smoke.

Correct. Outer won’t be hammered either because Ranny won’t hammer until people have voted.

If anyone else hammers we know scum on those wagons.

Scum have to pick NPOM or Outer and they’re being forced to.

Then we can establish if NPOM is town or a scum proper or a scum bus and have much narrower worlds

Scum have to pick.

Or they can stick their hands up their butts.

We take NPOM

They'll have to shoot you and Ranny. Outer bodyguards.

Battle Mage then gets flipped.

They have to shoot you Ranny Outer

Which leaves us in a hell of a good position with a miselimination to spare.

Scum not voting here or stating a read would be a conf scum claim here

[MathBlade]

Like, Math, you're trying to live, right?

Outer targets you tonight, boom.

You automatically live or Outer is conf scum.

No. I am not trying to live.

I play each day as if I am dead the next one.

I really think it’s Outer and Alch and FL or Titus here.

But by forcing wagons I can see if Titus’s case has merit and by giving Ranny hammers it literally removes stupid me from the equation.

[MathBlade]

haha ok ok I think it's probably just Titus-Flavor Leaf-OutWorldER here.

So here's what we do:

We elim OutWorldER today

If OWER flips town, you flip me (I will literally self-vote, it's all good). And obviously if you buy into the theory I'm scum with NPOM, you could flip him straight after me.

If OWER flips scum, we flip Flavor Leaf/Titus tomorrow (and then the other one on the next day).

If you’re town this plan sucks we lose

Pedit a million can’t be both here imho one is pocketed by the other or I am the idiot.

[MathBlade]

One solution is to eliminate FL and let OW bodyguard me tonight.

Not a solution.

I do Flavor.

I see it. I am considering I am the idiot here. Stop screaming.

[MathBlade]

Like sorry, if anyone thinks this is ever scum me, you’re scum or surface level.

I’m a dick, sure, but I’m not scum.

I guess I a surface level scum then.

they came into shade me when I was pushing NPOM earlier.

NPOM pushed you first.

If you’re town literally stop talking please and let me do as Titus asked because I have ran her VCA several times and it always looks ridiculous but I will try again.

[MathBlade]

@OWer - Hypothetically would you agree to BG me tongiht and would you consider switching your vote to FL?

Much as I scumread FL that is bad for town here.

It’s between you and Outer much as I scumread FL

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

I remeber him being the strongeest proponent of ben's elimination.

He pushed you first.

[MathBlade]

ah, he did push me first. I just ISO'd.

Interesting

It’s this stuff that makes me doubt you.

You’re a really good manipulator so you trying to sell me your right has the opposite effect.

The best thing you can do is if you’re town let me see if Titus’s case has merit and stop trying for credit.

[MathBlade]

Ok Math,

here's some real talk for you.

NPOM and BM are never voting for each other. BM is gone so far as to imply he has a reason to trust NPOM's claim but not Outer's. Yet, he's claimed VT all over this thread. He wants deference rather than explaining that read.
FL Outer and I found each other very quickly, but with rationales for doing so. FL and I are never voting Outer this game phase. I'm not as locktown as FL is but my only outer scenario also needs NPOM scum.
You and Ranny are never voting each other.
Alch and no elim are the "free agents".

Get to a coalition of 5 that has a chance of hitting scum.

That’s what I am doing.

[MathBlade]

*shrug*

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

I am

an alternate night Doctor.

I'll keep the even or odd to myself for now. Obviously I claimed VT to reduce my chances of getting killed (sue me).

Hence

I don't believe the Bodyguard claim because 2 gated protectives who could actually do double duty on some nights, doesn't seem viable to me.

And

I do believe the alternate night neapolitan claim because I figure there's bound to be an investigative, and the gating tessellates well with my role.

Hence NPOM-town, OWER-scum.

I figure Titus and Flavor Leaf must both be scum too, because they both figured out I was actually a PR and tried to undermine me. Especially from FL, who I know would take a different line as town.

There's very little reason for me to make this as a scum-gambit either, given I clearly wasn't getting elimmed today and I'd be guaranteeing myself as the elim tomorrow. I voted for OWER as soon as he had claimed but was hoping I could elim him without outting myself.

VOTE: OutWorldER

Actions?

[MathBlade]

*shrug*

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

I am

an alternate night Doctor.

I'll keep the even or odd to myself for now. Obviously I claimed VT to reduce my chances of getting killed (sue me).

Hence

I don't believe the Bodyguard claim because 2 gated protectives who could actually do double duty on some nights, doesn't seem viable to me.

And

I do believe the alternate night neapolitan claim because I figure there's bound to be an investigative, and the gating tessellates well with my role.

Hence NPOM-town, OWER-scum.

I figure Titus and Flavor Leaf must both be scum too, because they both figured out I was actually a PR and tried to undermine me. Especially from FL, who I know would take a different line as town.

There's very little reason for me to make this as a scum-gambit either, given I clearly wasn't getting elimmed today and I'd be guaranteeing myself as the elim tomorrow. I voted for OWER as soon as he had claimed but was hoping I could elim him without outting myself.

VOTE: OutWorldER

Actions?

On the night I could act, I protected Flavor Leaf.

When did you switch to scumreading Flavor?

[MathBlade]

*shrug*

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

I am

an alternate night Doctor.

I'll keep the even or odd to myself for now. Obviously I claimed VT to reduce my chances of getting killed (sue me).

Hence

I don't believe the Bodyguard claim because 2 gated protectives who could actually do double duty on some nights, doesn't seem viable to me.

And

I do believe the alternate night neapolitan claim because I figure there's bound to be an investigative, and the gating tessellates well with my role.

Hence NPOM-town, OWER-scum.

I figure Titus and Flavor Leaf must both be scum too, because they both figured out I was actually a PR and tried to undermine me. Especially from FL, who I know would take a different line as town.

There's very little reason for me to make this as a scum-gambit either, given I clearly wasn't getting elimmed today and I'd be guaranteeing myself as the elim tomorrow. I voted for OWER as soon as he had claimed but was hoping I could elim him without outting myself.

VOTE: OutWorldER

Actions?

On the night I could act, I protected Flavor Leaf.

When did you switch to scumreading Flavor?

lol I'm trying to keep the odd/even bit concealed, this is not a helpful question for that

The elim is between NPOM and Outer.

If your claim is true scum probably have an RB or you’re dead. No reason to conceal this if you’re town.

[MathBlade]

it's just way too convenient, dude. Even if Outer is scum, NPOM is still scum.

There’s a lot here that’s too convenient.

I know how to force scum to come out.

I may be bad at reads but I am good at manipulating people. Scum should become evident if I am doing this right.

[MathBlade]

*shrug*

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

I am

an alternate night Doctor.

I'll keep the even or odd to myself for now. Obviously I claimed VT to reduce my chances of getting killed (sue me).

Hence

I don't believe the Bodyguard claim because 2 gated protectives who could actually do double duty on some nights, doesn't seem viable to me.

And

I do believe the alternate night neapolitan claim because I figure there's bound to be an investigative, and the gating tessellates well with my role.

Hence NPOM-town, OWER-scum.

I figure Titus and Flavor Leaf must both be scum too, because they both figured out I was actually a PR and tried to undermine me. Especially from FL, who I know would take a different line as town.

There's very little reason for me to make this as a scum-gambit either, given I clearly wasn't getting elimmed today and I'd be guaranteeing myself as the elim tomorrow. I voted for OWER as soon as he had claimed but was hoping I could elim him without outting myself.

VOTE: OutWorldER

Actions?

On the night I could act, I protected Flavor Leaf.

When did you switch to scumreading Flavor?

lol I'm trying to keep the odd/even bit concealed, this is not a helpful question for that

The elim is between NPOM and Outer.

If your claim is true scum probably have an RB or you’re dead. No reason to conceal this if you’re town.

with the possibility of 2 masons, and an investigative, I can see a world where they don't kill me tonight. Especially when it feels like town is close to the solve. You're a smart dude, I think I've given you what you need.

I am telling you you haven’t.

[MathBlade]

lol Math come on

I'm an odd-night Doc, so I was out and about on Night 1. And I'll be protecting our neapolitan tonight.

Now with that out when did you switch to scumreading Flavor?

[MathBlade]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

benhalkum

(7): Alchemist21, Flavor Leaf, superbowl9, Titus, NoPowerOverMe, benhalkum, OutWorldER |

ELIMINATED

Titus

(2): Non lmh, hessian

superbowl9

(2): Rannygazoo, Andresvmb

NoPowerOverMe

(1): Battle Mage

Not Voting

(1): wiyvern

Mod notes:

I am using Thesp's automated votecounter - please notify me if there are any errors.
hessian is V/LA until Sunday.
wiyvern will be prodded in the night. if they do not respond, they risk being replaced.

@Titus

Assume NPOM and BM are scum. Why is BM on NPOM?

[MathBlade]

Alchemist is probably scum bussing NPOM, which is why they only pop in every now and then, and isn't actually helping push.

He might also be TMI'ing me as town.

That might be the one thing we agree on.

But see I want Titus’s opinion.

@Titus why are you not voting NPOM?

[MathBlade]

I am trying to figure out the odds of two scum claiming VT and then PR.

It seems incredibly not smart/coached

[MathBlade]

Pretty much I am thinking if BM is scum it’s NPOM+BM+FL/Titus here

This reeks of coaching. If BM is scum he doesn’t come up with a fake claim like that to try to convince people outer is scum. He does that because he’s told to.

[MathBlade]

Why are you cutting out Alchemist?

He got nommed for Don Corleone last year.

Alchemist wasn’t posting at the time and the claim is very reactive and up to date and much more a you or Titus thing.

This game has hallmark manipulations of one of you being scum.

You’d have to argue Alchemist specifically shot Johnny to get you to tunnel and that’s a stretch.

I have to work but

UNVOTE:

As the vote I did achieved what I wanted and got some teams to build.

[MathBlade]

@Titus why are you not voting NPOM? I think I missed that.

[MathBlade]

I believe there are some fake claims going on but I'm not sure who.

That wasn’t an answer

[MathBlade]

What makes you believe BM more than outer when you treated it like a guilty on Outer?

[MathBlade]

I've been scumreading leaf and ow since ow hammered and leaf called himlocktown

What if it’s possible it’s just BM and you and Outer are both town?

[MathBlade]

guilty

I just find it weird that pr!outer is a “soft guilty” but pr!BM isn’t.

Agreed. Was getting to that in a roundabout way.
People tell you more if they don’t feel it’s an accusation.

[MathBlade]

Did I just fail a charisma roll?

Not really I was more trying to push your thought you had in the mason PT. By asking a question you’re more likely to get a friendly answer.

[MathBlade]

It’s more a “I would do it this way” thing I shoulda put that in the mason PT my bad

[MathBlade]

That’s a read not a guilty though. Granted I see the connection and has merit but it isn’t a guilty.

[MathBlade]

Titus, no elim, and Alch please claim.

[MathBlade]

VT

Hey Titus, random weird thought, what if there’s 4 scum and this is Elo?

Before you knee jerk and say we’re scum Ranny and I both demonstrated online.

[MathBlade]

It could be three scum and a one shot serial killer that hasn't killed yet

Can’t be SK. Not normal.

It’s all one group.

[MathBlade]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

No. Game started with 13.
Minimum 14 required for 3P.

[MathBlade]

Mini Normal 2179

Moderator: TheGoldenParadox
Reviewers: mastina and schadd_

phase

The game is currently in

Day 3

deadline

The current phase ends in

(expired on 2020-12-13 20:25:07)

Player	Status	Role	Fate
Non lmh* Mathblade	Alive
benhalkum	Dead	Town 2-Shot Roleblocker	Eliminated Day 1
Battle Mage	Alive
OutWorldER	Alive
hessian* no elim	Alive
wiyvern** JohnnyFarrar	Dead	Vanilla Townie	Killed Night 2
NoPowerOverMe	Alive
Rannygazoo	Alive
superbowl9	Dead	Town Fruit Vendor	Eliminated Day 2
Titus	Alive
Flavor Leaf	Alive
Alchemist21	Alive
Andresvmb	Dead	Town 2-shot Neighborizer	Killed Night 1

* indicates a prod. Bolded means confirmed.

Spoiler: Spectators

Dkkoba
mastina
Albert B. Rampage

Spoiler: Votecounter Settings

Living Players

MathBlade (replaces Non lmh)
Battle Mage
OutWorldER
no elim (replaces hessian)
NoPowerOverMe
Rannygazoo
Titus
Flavor Leaf
Alchemist21

Links

Day 3 - Post 1172

Can you help me find the two shot scum roleblocker please?

[MathBlade]

What’s the negative utility?

[MathBlade]

Titus let me be blunt here. You’re acting an awful lot like a fourth scum and this is ELO.

I get both NPOM’s and BM’s claims are suspect as fuck. But the fact you’re literally waiting out in the wings for a quick hammer (your words) instead of voting NPOM when in your world there is no way I could be scum is sus as fuck.

You’re not even considering traitor which is normal, and I don’t know if the above is a slip.

Give me a reason by play you’re town here. Not mechanics. Play.

[MathBlade]

I have to hop in the shower and run errands but convince me you’re not scum with FL Outer and Alch by play.

[MathBlade]

Simple solution

No elim when he comes on it will vote someone.

If no elim votes outer we elim outer.
If outer flips scum then we know it’s 4 scum in you FL Outer and one of Alch/no elim.
If outer flips town then we know it’s NPOM+BM+no elim/Alch.

If no elim votes NPOM and you hammer
If that’s scum then we mechanically prove a scum on NPOM and therefore prolly win.
If that’s town gg you and the other three win.

[MathBlade]

And if it doesn’t vote then NPOM +BM + No elim confirmed

[MathBlade]

As I said that’s a scum claim if it does that.

I am listening. I am just also doing CYB. If it is NPOM+BM we reveal both today. What’s the issue with forcing two scum to out?

[MathBlade]

Simple solution

No elim when he comes on it will vote someone.

If no elim votes outer we elim outer.
If outer flips scum then we know it’s 4 scum in you FL Outer and one of Alch/no elim.
If outer flips town then we know it’s NPOM+BM+no elim/Alch.

If no elim votes NPOM and you hammer
If that’s scum then we mechanically prove a scum on NPOM and therefore prolly win.
If that’s town gg you and the other three win.

@no elim You need to vote. Vote between NPOM and Outer.

[MathBlade]

As I said that’s a scum claim if it does that.

I am listening. I am just also doing CYB. If it is NPOM+BM we reveal both today. What’s the issue with forcing two scum to out?

The issue is burning our miselimination. I still have extreme paranoia over the third.

As much as I hate to say it, no elim may not actually be around. It would be so easy to go black and white. Yet we've seen that people not doing what we want doesn't make them scum.

We need that miselimination.

Then we wait. Wait out the prod dodge timer then wait for a replacement. Hyperposting isn’t required in a mafia game. By not posting we can force it to vote.

[MathBlade]

Sure, we can wait for the hopes that one of the scumteam bussed. That's possible but unlikely.

We likely need a mason to get a scum execution off. FYPOV, passing the choice onto non elim isn't good enough. It says you'll lend your mason support behind an outer execution but not a NPOM one.

Maybe I will maybe I won’t.

That’s for no elim to sort if it’s scum.

[MathBlade]

Blade Dancer = Titus?

Correct. Sometimes when people have hydra / alt accounts and forget to switch they quote the post as a way to say “Oops that was me”

[MathBlade]

Because this forces them to engage in the game. The slot has been dead for a while. I want them to do something.

[MathBlade]

Titus let me be blunt here. You’re acting an awful lot like a fourth scum and this is ELO.

I get both NPOM’s and BM’s claims are suspect as fuck. But the fact you’re literally waiting out in the wings for a quick hammer (your words) instead of voting NPOM when in your world there is no way I could be scum is sus as fuck.

You’re not even considering traitor which is normal, and I don’t know if the above is a slip.

Give me a reason by play you’re town here. Not mechanics. Play.

how on earth is Titus acting like it's ELO? and how is my claim remotely "suspect"?

I really hope, if my solve is right, you're just screwing around, and not actually going to throw the game for town.

I am deliberately not answering both questions here.

Where did you start crumbing?

[MathBlade]

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

Hey BM why do you think this would be obvious to scum or to anyone? I didn’t see where you crumbed it.

lol! maybe ask Flavor Leaf or Titus since they both picked up on it. i was hinting at it for numerous posts today, after I figured there was a risk we wouldn't elim OWER unless I gave a bit more help.

So you started crumbing it day 3?

it wasn't really crumbing, i was dropping whole fking loaves. i was hoping Titus or FL would be town, take the hint, and we could bury it in content so I wouldnt have to claim.

Then point out the loaves please

[MathBlade]

it seems to me that you're about to throw away the game regardless of anything I say because you are listening to Titus and FL and not me.

You'll forgive me if I don't waste my time going back to dig out quotes which you can easily find yourself (you were here when this all happened and I know you're not stupid).

absolutely ridiculous

I am listening to everyone. That includes you. Any crumbs you make may help if someone is being dense here. There’s no reason not to pull the bread out of the oven.

[MathBlade]

can you just look at the claims please, and tell me setup-wise what makes sense - 1 protective and investigative on alternating nights - yes. 2 protectives which overlap awkwardly - no. that's essentially what this boils down to. i only 'crumbed' when i knew it was necessary to risk outting my role to get OWER-elimmed. it doesn't make sense for me to do that as a gambit to save hypothetical partner NPOM when it buys me maximum of 1 mis-elim for 2 consecutive scum elims, or potentially 2 consecutive scum-elims and conftowning somebody else.

If you are masons, think about the permutations here - what makes sense in terms of setup and also the way each player has approached it. It's not like BM doesn't fakeclaim as town often if there's a reason, and it's pretty obvious that the manner I claimed VT (under no pressure, and using the excuse of being neighbourhooded to make it believable) was just to stop me being NKed. My role is alternate night so it kinda relies on me surviving a few night phases to get value from it.

So you’re claiming coached?

[MathBlade]

can you just look at the claims please, and tell me setup-wise what makes sense - 1 protective and investigative on alternating nights - yes. 2 protectives which overlap awkwardly - no. that's essentially what this boils down to. i only 'crumbed' when i knew it was necessary to risk outting my role to get OWER-elimmed. it doesn't make sense for me to do that as a gambit to save hypothetical partner NPOM when it buys me maximum of 1 mis-elim for 2 consecutive scum elims, or potentially 2 consecutive scum-elims and conftowning somebody else.

If you are masons, think about the permutations here - what makes sense in terms of setup and also the way each player has approached it. It's not like

BM

doesn't fakeclaim as town often if there's a reason, and it's pretty obvious that the manner I claimed VT (under no pressure, and using the excuse of being neighbourhooded to make it believable) was just to stop me being NKed. My role is alternate night so it kinda relies on me surviving a few night phases to get value from it.

That’s an odd way to refer to yourself. Bold is me

[MathBlade]

It’s just...they both changed their claim from Vanilla to PR after NPOM was caught. Yes, NPOM was gonna claim it anyways, but I saw that they were gonna change it.

But why doesn’t BM hammer NPOM in that case? And just lose that?

[MathBlade]

can you just look at the claims please, and tell me setup-wise what makes sense - 1 protective and investigative on alternating nights - yes. 2 protectives which overlap awkwardly - no. that's essentially what this boils down to. i only 'crumbed' when i knew it was necessary to risk outting my role to get OWER-elimmed. it doesn't make sense for me to do that as a gambit to save hypothetical partner NPOM when it buys me maximum of 1 mis-elim for 2 consecutive scum elims, or potentially 2 consecutive scum-elims and conftowning somebody else.

If you are masons, think about the permutations here - what makes sense in terms of setup and also the way each player has approached it. It's not like

BM

doesn't fakeclaim as town often if there's a reason, and it's pretty obvious that the manner I claimed VT (under no pressure, and using the excuse of being neighbourhooded to make it believable) was just to stop me being NKed. My role is alternate night so it kinda relies on me surviving a few night phases to get value from it.

That’s an odd way to refer to yourself. Bold is me

ok Math, just focus on crap like that, and ignore the substance of everything I said.

Thank you for permission I didn’t need it. I will continue so anyway. Why refer to yourself in 3rd person? Copy paste error from scum PT?

[MathBlade]

It’s just...they both changed their claim from Vanilla to PR after NPOM was caught. Yes, NPOM was gonna claim it anyways, but I saw that they were gonna change it.

But why doesn’t BM hammer NPOM in that case? And just lose that?

I’m conftown after NPOM flips. I’m never getting faded after that.

And I don’t know, I think BM can just be town.

If NPOM is getting bussed by Alch or Outer, and No Elim is the third.

No you actually aren’t. I may be super close to a solve here that gets you your wish but you’re not conf if NPOM flips scum here

[MathBlade]

Outer and BM can also both target tonight.

We can protect people we don’t want dead, so we can control the scum’s Night kill here if we keep both BM and Outer alive. It weakens them and forces them to not kill who we want.

We can keep Masons alive.

BM on Mathblade, Outer on Ranny.

If any of them die, they’re outed.

Yes, there is scum WIFOM potential in that, but we play Mafia. We analyze when it comes to that.

That’s what analyzing is for.

IF

we did this Outer on me BM on Ranny

[MathBlade]

It’s just...they both changed their claim from Vanilla to PR after NPOM was caught. Yes, NPOM was gonna claim it anyways, but I saw that they were gonna change it.

But why doesn’t BM hammer NPOM in that case? And just lose that?

I’m conftown after NPOM flips. I’m never getting faded after that.

And I don’t know, I think BM can just be town.

If NPOM is getting bussed by Alch or Outer, and No Elim is the third.

No you actually aren’t. I may be super close to a solve here that gets you your wish but you’re not conf if NPOM flips scum here

Okay, I’m ObvTown after NPOM flips except to the masons, who just want me to be scum.

No it has to do with BM scum slipping a moment ago and Titus scumreading BM

You being the most likely scum coaching BM is a coincidence.

BM would be on Ranny. Outer on me. If we flip a scum here I become literal confirmed.

[MathBlade]

The only question becomes who is actively coaching BM? The dude who literally has been screaming at BM to change his claim? It becomes really easy to call it if you’re steering.

The fact BM didn’t even try to answer means BM is lock scum here

[MathBlade]

The main issue here is BM referred to himself in the third person.

People don’t do that even in drafts or edits.

That was a copy pasta from a scum PT.

[MathBlade]

lol scumslip? dude get real.

also, ftr i am never "coached" as scum - people who try, get bussed to death immediately.

consider me checked out for the day, as I think this is a lost cause. Math seems more interested in keeping FL happy than elimming scum or even talking about the possibility of elimming scum, or even talking to me about anything actually useful.

I have not been happy in this game since the lurkers will still lurking, and I think that should be incredibly obvious that Mathblade has been my biggest annoyance since then.

Then why get annoyed at a play asking no elim to vote? You’re not consistent.

[MathBlade]

Math, I can live with you calling me scum here, although it's completely ridiculous given what has happened.

You claiming I'm some shit scum who would need coaching, or would even listen to coaching, is insulting. I'm fking great as scum, I often suck as town.

Good scum coordinate with buddies. It may not be FL but that’s the most likely. It makes the most sense. The tone of that post is all wrong and the third person is bad. You didn’t point out your “loaves”. You were coached or you failed to edit something. I just don’t know what or who.

[MathBlade]

Why can’t he have failed on his own?

It’s not a natural thought process.

Think about your meta.

You start that sentence with an I. You keep explaining with I. You don’t use a third person like Flavor Leaf or Boonskiies.

[MathBlade]

That’s why one of us gets shot tonight.

BM is pretty much conf scum now.

The question becomes why conf scum BM did this and didn’t just rag on NPOM

[MathBlade]

That’s why one of us gets shot tonight.

BM is pretty much conf scum now.

The question becomes why conf scum BM did this and didn’t just rag on NPOM

BECAUSE NPOM SCUM FLIPPING CONFIRMS ME AS TOWN TO ANYONE WHO CAN READ THE GAME WITHOUT WANTING ME TO BE SCUM OH MY GOD

No it literally wouldn’t.

Titus has said it and so have I. I have done EXACTLY what you’re doing in Shadowrun with Inspector. So big Nope.

Hell I want Titus to respond to that bolded 3P.

[MathBlade]

Then you played poorly.

I’m anti bus, and only do it when it needs to be done, and you won’t ever see it when it needs to be done by me.

I played brilliant actually and never actually elimmed him. Won what was essentially 2v17 iirc.

So I think I know what you’re doing I just need to look back and talk with Ranny

[MathBlade]

You don’t get to have it both ways.

I can and will until I figure out the third.

[MathBlade]

Or maybe even fourth

[MathBlade]

I am gonna take a nap and see if I wanna VCA later. Not as effective since no scum flipped but I need to figure out if NPOM actually nailed FL+Outer or if it’s NPOM+FL+BM or which is likely.

That bold reeks of coaching it does.

[MathBlade]

Good now we can confirm scum on NPOM if Titus derp hammers/scum hammers

[MathBlade]

If she does FL/Titus + BM is very important regardless of NPOM flip. Still sorting them

[MathBlade]

Battle Mage, vote NPOM.

Scum fell apart here and admitted it imho Titus

If NPOM is town or scum I think having me hold the vote worked beautifully

[MathBlade]

FL has no logical reasoning for continuing his push on me besides being scum himself.

i apologise dude, as I do think you're town (albeit you've been scummy town at times, as discussed on Day 2!). I just think it's a lost cause because I'm the only one posting who thinks that, and there's 3 people about to hammer you anyway.

Actually no. I think NPOM could be town here

I am slow playing this for reactions and possibly elim Outer

The fact you moved is HUGE and Titus’s response is VERY important

[MathBlade]

If anyone hammers it would be Titus and/or no elim.

I would never hammer without an inactive slot checking in

[MathBlade]

This is not the time for will of the town. You eliminate me town loses in all probability.

I have done this before. Granted it works better in F2F mafia here.

When/If elim happens based on your alignment shit’s gonna break.

[MathBlade]

FL has no logical reasoning for continuing his push on me besides being scum himself.

i apologise dude, as I do think you're town (albeit you've been scummy town at times, as discussed on Day 2!). I just think it's a lost cause because I'm the only one posting who thinks that, and there's 3 people about to hammer you anyway.

Actually no. I think NPOM could be town here

I am slow playing this for reactions and possibly elim Outer

The fact you moved is HUGE and Titus’s response is VERY important

I assumed you would say this, because you've decided I'm scum for no good reason, and are reading everything else through that incorrect lens.

Arguing with you about my read right now is counter productive.

Titus! I subpoena you! Look at the shiny wagon!!!

[MathBlade]

Titus what did you think of the slip?

[MathBlade]

can you just look at the claims please, and tell me setup-wise what makes sense - 1 protective and investigative on alternating nights - yes. 2 protectives which overlap awkwardly - no. that's essentially what this boils down to. i only 'crumbed' when i knew it was necessary to risk outting my role to get OWER-elimmed. it doesn't make sense for me to do that as a gambit to save hypothetical partner NPOM when it buys me maximum of 1 mis-elim for 2 consecutive scum elims, or potentially 2 consecutive scum-elims and conftowning somebody else.

If you are masons, think about the permutations here - what makes sense in terms of setup and also the way each player has approached it. It's not like

BM

doesn't fakeclaim as town often if there's a reason, and it's pretty obvious that the manner I claimed VT (under no pressure, and using the excuse of being neighbourhooded to make it believable) was just to stop me being NKed. My role is alternate night so it kinda relies on me surviving a few night phases to get value from it.

That’s an odd way to refer to yourself. Bold is me

What do you mean which one? You think there’s multiples?

[MathBlade]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

[MathBlade]

Also which of the people on NPOM are scum to you Titus?

[MathBlade]

BM, maybe Alch.

Why do you think BM refers to himself in the third person if he’s not scum with FL?

[MathBlade]

Fl ower Titus are trying to steamroll here

Why do you say BM is town?

[MathBlade]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

I don't think that "slip" suggests FL plus BM. I think NPOM is scum and your slip is wrong.

Then tell me why

[MathBlade]

This is twilight NPOM please give anything you can if you’re town here. Tomorrow will be elo if you are.

[MathBlade]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

I don't think that "slip" suggests FL plus BM. I think NPOM is scum and your slip is wrong.

Then tell me why

The changing claims. The resistances. The lies. The lack of coherent town motivation. The pure OMGUS nature.

I get that’s why BM is probably scum. On paper BM makes a good scum and so does NPOM. NKA+game play says you and/or FL

I am asking why that is not a slip.

[MathBlade]

The big three have been hard defending each other in the whole game

So? One could be pocketed.

Dense town doesn’t always mean scum.

We have to hit right tomorrow.

Pretend you have flipped and it’s town (and everyone suspend disbelief at NPOM read if you scumread them).

Can you make a “last wish”, summarizing your thoughts?

[MathBlade]

I think final 2 are Alch/No Elim. I don't see why both doc and bg, when doc is gated, with a pair of masons and a roleblocker can't exist.

Pretend NPOM flips town and assume one of me or Ranny dies overnight.

Who is scum and why?

[MathBlade]

If people are trying to argue 4 scum, then this game was always a scum win here based on numbers really just being in their favor by this day phase.

If it was 4 scum and NPOM = town we lose because parity.

If NPOM town our only hope is 3 scum since myself and Ranny were off wagon

[MathBlade]

This may just be a thought exercise but the way they came back after hammers makes me think NPOM is town.

Which would be very very bad.

Regardless NPOM flip I wanna elim in the wagon since I know that has to have a scum on it

[MathBlade]

I needed one of masons or NPOM to go this day phase. I think after the night phase, it just becomes obvious if masons are fake or not.

If NPOM is town as evidenced by their posting after hammers, it becomes painfully painfully clear you are scum.

You couldn’t have NPOM potentially confirm another player and two masons.

My hunch (can’t prove it obvs) is your team had a role cop and found what NPOM was.

If NPOM is scum there’s some breathing room and will talk with Ranny.

[MathBlade]

We’re not letting no elim catch up because why?

Titus hammered it ends day as soon as TGP gets on it’s out of our hands

[MathBlade]

This is why you always believe the second f****** claim

Why do you think I was stalling shit?

I was still sorting.

Titus fucking damn it.

Why the fuck did you try to lead over a fucking mason?

[MathBlade]

BM on Ranny, Outer on me

[MathBlade]

We’ll see if there are 4 scum on the wagon and this is game over.

If there’s 4 scum then yeah gg we got ducked and it would have to be everyone on wagon except BM.

[MathBlade]

So pretty much I am just gonna pretend there’s three scum.

[MathBlade]

I just feel like you kinda know NPOM gonna flip town already.

Remember when they said they wanted to die at night, lol

Know? No.

Sinking gut the size of Grand Canyon. Yes.

[MathBlade]

Sorry. The vote on Titus was all me.

Should have told Ranny to go with the safe option.

[MathBlade]

I am okay with releasing the mason PT btw.

I waffled so hard Waffle House built a franchise

[MathBlade]

Ranny was awesome btw.

He’s gonna be a top tier Townie imho.

[MathBlade]

Also, so happy nobody picked up on my Andres fear kill.

I think I did. I know I assigned a reason in the PT to it. Can’t remember if I thought it was you or Titus. I knew Johnny was a fear kill.

I wanna see why your team didn’t kill me or Ranny N2.

[MathBlade]

Yes, I’m fine with releasing the mason pt now.

Btw, you were awesome Ranny. It was a loss sure but please please don’t take this to heart as you having a bad game.

[MathBlade]

People seem a bit harsh on Titus.

You have to remember, Titus is probably one of the players I know best on site, so I played in a way where I knew how to lock in her pocket.

I actively wanted to abuse her VCA in a way where it didn't look like someone trying to avoid her VCA.

Whoever stated "anyone who quickhammers here is lockscum" gave us reason to doubt Outer being scum, and alongside playing into the Titus pocket, we weren't bussing each other, so it was extremely hard for you guys to get the right amount of votes on any of us, and we were too on the nose scum team for it to look like the main scum team

I had that problem too trying to navigate an outer wagon. It was just four and we needed a fifth. Titus wasn’t going to do it. Alch wasn’t going to do it, and my post to no elim got buried. Well done.

Y’all had 1-2 perfect days which is hella hard to do.

[MathBlade]

I'd say it was one of my better games.

Except for the confusing claim bit I had you as lock!town. It’s that claim and that two PRs did it not one. I was pretty sure on Outer just ugh this game was confusing

[MathBlade]

...I was trying.

Sorting through fake claims and real claims takes time and not having hyperposting.

[MathBlade]

I think the lesson of this game is to kill the obvious Scum first.

I appreciate being fear killed and all, but I would say that both Johnny and Math (at times) played better than I have on any game on this forum with the one exception that Koba remembers well. An important part of playing Town in my mind is being able to convince others to do the right thing. In that, we failed miserably. And Scum just did very well. Flavor showed convincingly why dominating the conversation and controlling the game state are so important as Scum, and the Team really ran the game and the Masons couldn’t sufficiently counter it. I don’t think figuring out Titus’ alignment was easy btw - I think Titus made mistakes because of an inherent belief that she was likely to be right more often than not. That didn’t work out this game obviously, but I’m sure it does over the long-run.

This was a bit depressing to read to be totally honest - I was really rooting for us to get our acts together in time but it just didn’t happen. Hopefully I get to play with some of you again soon enough.

Hey if you’re interested can you PM me what I could do better? Always looking to improve my town game

[MathBlade]

If you had eliminated FL and ower first you could have sorted Titus and Alch better.

Yup. 100% agree here. I just was too tied to the “always sort cop and guilty claim” mentality

[MathBlade]

@Math Do you have a good record of sorting Titus?

Hit and miss. It’s been getting better as usually if she’s doing or attempting pro town stuff she is town but if she isn’t she’s usually scum. Here she did a lot of antitown things (Eg quick hammer, not working with masons etc). It used to be really bad.