In post 38, TheGoldenParadox wrote:
hey gj
Which is why that's bad design if there is no way out. The mafia should always be given a way out for all investigative PRs.In post 53, Bunno wrote:Not only there's no way out for scum if they are investigated, there's very often not even a possibility of mafia counterplaying the cop due to a lack of mafia PRs.
I don't necessarily agree that not being able to escape an investigative guilty is bad design. In particular, the cop still has to choose their target carefully. Common wisdom is that you cop your middle reads and/or lurkers. I believe there is counterplay in the form of playing well enough that no one would think to cop you. I understand this may be difficult in certain games (maybe many), but ultimately, getting copped as scum is a sign that someone was already suspicious of you to begin with. If you are a shining beacon of town, people shouldn't want to cop you, so you will avoid guilties.In post 53, Bunno wrote:Not only there's no way out for scum if they are investigated, there's very often not even a possibility of mafia counterplaying the cop due to a lack of mafia PRs.
Well, as you said, obvtowning is really hard on it's own, plus, the fact that you're still alive by endgame is gonna raise some pretty bad eyebrows, so really, it's not that betterIn post 56, Ircher wrote:I don't necessarily agree that not being able to escape an investigative guilty is bad design. In particular, the cop still has to choose their target carefully. Common wisdom is that you cop your middle reads and/or lurkers. I believe there is counterplay in the form of playing well enough that no one would think to cop you. I understand this may be difficult in certain games (maybe many), but ultimately, getting copped as scum is a sign that someone was already suspicious of you to begin with. If you are a shining beacon of town, people shouldn't want to cop you, so you will avoid guilties.In post 53, Bunno wrote:Not only there's no way out for scum if they are investigated, there's very often not even a possibility of mafia counterplaying the cop due to a lack of mafia PRs.
That said, cop does have issues especially the fact that it is a very powerful and dominating role. As mastina points out, a full cop is a bad idea for many reasons, especially in the late game where PoE starts to matter a lot. But getting copped on N1 or N2 (in a mini normal) is a sign that you didn't play well enough, so I don't agree that there is no way to counterplay a cop.
i definitely agree with this and in fact it seems to me like it actually offers more depth to scum gameplay rather than being poor design. i think it's uncontroversial to say that effective PR huntingIn post 58, Psyche wrote:i do like the dynamic where scum have to be attentive not just to global suspicion against them and their allies, but also to the suspicion of particular players who could hold investigative roles
if investigative roles are too weak, then that concern isn't impactful enough on gameplay
1-shot cops seem a neat compromise, though there are alternatives — like jailkeeper?
There's little counterplay the higher you go. If someone is known as a good scum player that people have a hard time reading, an average cop would target them and mafia instantly loses not only one of their members, but their strongest ones. There's little counterplay to be done in dayplay in most setups that aren't bastard. You're assuming here that meta doesn't exist, even though right now it's one of the most important aspects of any game you see being played.In post 56, Ircher wrote:I don't necessarily agree that not being able to escape an investigative guilty is bad design. In particular, the cop still has to choose their target carefully. Common wisdom is that you cop your middle reads and/or lurkers. I believe there is counterplay in the form of playing well enough that no one would think to cop you
I don't think it's a top 2%, even people that are beginning to get some good scum games may get copped out of context simply because of paranoia, just like if someone has seen 2 or 3 good town games from someone, they may default to a fear kill.In post 65, Ircher wrote:This isn't a refutation of your point, but that problem applies only to a very small group of players. Maybe the top 2% well known scum players. Furthermore, it's not just cops those players have an issue with.
Nah that doesn't happen to be honestPeople will try to policy eliminate those players in the day as well simply because they could be scum.
like I said, I feel some of you guys are so used to this that you don't even notice and it's the "obvious" answer to you, but a setup where the best scum hunters gets killed d1 without any chance to counterplay (aka no protectives to protect them), isn't what I would call the best design.In post 68, Something_Smart wrote:I don't understand what Bunno's arguing at all. Scum being able to kill threats to them is bad? Balancing for the average result is bad?