Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[unwnd]

Hi

I haven't read and to be honest I don't really want to if that's fine with people

[unwnd]

I much prefer organically making reads but I might sporadically check back just out of curiosity, don't need a catchup or anything like that

I'm a big boy and can work on my own

[unwnd]

Lunar does the scum thing of throwing shade, presuming intent in the worst light possible. They're either scum or exceptionally bad town, and either way need to be removed before endgame.

I haven't kept the biggest tabs on this game (generally just like replacing), but I would say my gutcheck on Lunar was town. They have a certain alertness in their posts that doesn't feel manufactured or has partners in mind

[unwnd]

Alright so my replacement was on Hayker so I guess I'll see what he saw in him lol

[unwnd]

Without looking at Hayker fully (not that it's a hard ISO), is the consensus made on him based on lack of activity? The 22 posts when I clicked the ISO button stuck out like a sore thumb. 827 posts into D2 actually doesn't seem that bad, but if I were assuming our disposition it would be that most people are presuming a lurkscum and the proclaimed apathy is assuming scum is lowballing

I can tell you right now that I think this is a bit short-sighted, based on my own previous experience and just in general. While this game didn't have a No-Lim, Innocent Things was largely driven by scum and we found ourselves in a position where it was increasingly hard to latch onto things or even manipulate townies, with the clause being that..the townies weren't there to manipulate. Do I believe that is what is happening here? Not really, but I think discussing perspective is what engages me

[unwnd]

Alright so Hayker claimed doctor

Uh what are the other claims besides the IC and are those claims causing people to consensus-lim Hayker? Needed a bit of help after all

[unwnd]

Oh hey dannflor nice case guess I'll read that instead of 20 more pages lmao

[unwnd]

From a replacement standpoint I think the Hayker aspect is solid, but the Papa Zito one required more of my actual presence in those instances. I think it's pretty much unlikely that a wagon gets flipped if the IC is calling for a death and writing a case on them either way. My vote will probably stay for that reason

[unwnd]

I kinda wanted that [perspective] but I'm sure I'll get it on flip. If Hayker does flip scum however I agree with the methodology that scum is aware their partner is fucked. Your own experience has left you that could be Zito, but is there anyone on this wagon you could suspect for getting towncred? And by chance of Hayker just being doctor (which to me feels pretty implausible purely going off your own role, I especially agreed with that paragraph), where would you look then? I'm someone who is really interested in considering the gamestate which is why I don't ever bother with rereads. I like figuring out the agenda of scum and what it means based on overall feel

[unwnd]

Well, no one else has really tried to reposition themselves greatly this day phase,

So everyone was just sorta like 'yup Hayker is scum'? Your case clarified My slot, Gamma and You all voted for Hayker. I could read Gamma and provide my own thoughts about him, I consider myself pretty good at reading his alignment based on the games we've played

[unwnd]

Tonalcheck and I'd disagree with you on Gamma, lot of his responses to me are pretty flat and posts like #615 in regards to his own attention span feels attributed to a guilty conscience where he knows he'd post more as town but instead is sorta listless. That's the definition I would ascribe to based on his content purely from ISO

[unwnd]

Post more btw not necessarily being postcount, rather the content of his posts. His trajectory this game so far seems like an intentional means to not upset anyone, where-in his responses are very measured. I tend to backspace a lot more as scum because I'm really careful about the way I explain my thought process as I don't want to leave any holes for townies to pick up on. In that sense, I feel the restraint is intentional.

[unwnd]

The instance of Alchemist's death that you described to me is the most telling of my own thoughts, where it seems like in #662 is a stopgap instance and what follows is basically him trying to forcibly convince himself of a lim he knows is wrong. It's not that saying 'hm' or thinking about things makes you scum, it is everything surrounding that empty thought. Just a lot of mundane responses and mostly attuned to what is going around him instead of going out and seeking answers. I understand that you think Zito especially is sorta in that realm of thinking-too-much-but-not-really-productive, but for me Zito has either committed himself to a ludicrous degree (almost like inverse-bussing, where someone is SO convinced someone is town and ends up being scum), or they're going to eat a huge amount of crow.

[unwnd]

What they're doing IMO is either

1) Aware that (Hayker) is bound to die and trying to accredit themselves in ways that will make them look townier
2) Ignoring what's going on and trying to play fool as town will likely be more cautious about those who are inhibiting 1) behavior

I think that your thought on scum being on this wagon regardless likely remains true from a wagonomics standpoint, but it's not me and I think I townread lunar so things just sorta started to line up in my head. I think both realities can exist that I explained, and right now this wagon doesn't seem too heavily coordinated. If hayker is scum he probably just claimed an appealing role, and which mates he slightly touched base with probably centralized their opinions around his claim either by separate play or involvement. Gamma is the one I think is involved if that makes sense

[unwnd]

Zito, you think Lunar is scum from my small dive so I want to know what you think of my logic presented as a whole right now.

[unwnd]

I don't disagree and I'd much prefer the deadline be used sparingly instead of rushing a lim

[unwnd]

If you interpret them as vague there's probably a good amount of truth into that. Very often I will just let my mind wander and let my fingers do the work. Meaning, I just say shit and see how people interpret my own thoughts. You seem to disagree which in turn is a reaction that I consider in the broader view of the game. I'd like to see what Gamma himself thinks about my takes regardless

[unwnd]

That's fine too, I'll get to you a bit later

[unwnd]

OK, I'm willing to respond now

I don't really understand this point. What are "flat" vs "non-flat" (?) responses? Can you give examples of which particular responses you consider "flat" and why?

Why do you attribute 615 to a "guilty conscience" vs ... I dunno, anything else?

I think we can both agree that the degree in which Mafia is played (especially for town) is to make convincing arguments. I try to accentuate behavior and paint a picture of what I see. To be honest, I am very lazy and choose a roundabout way of getting people to see my arguments. Flat could be replaced with "Stale", "Boring", "Inoffensive", etc. As for what response I typically felt were flat? My statements made towards Gamma were at a cursory glance, so after I saw a few of his posts that's the overall conclusion I've made. In terms of..what wouldn't be flat? I think someone who seems more engaged/willing to take risks. I would be lying if my read on Gamma right now was not a bit confbiased in terms of what I figure is more in line with his towngame, there being (engaged/willing to take risks).

I don't really understand this point either. Are you saying you think he hasn't been confrontational enough? Or that he hasn't argued with enough people? Can you explain what you mean here?

When you're scum you have to be more careful about the things you say. I guess in some sense you'd be right re:confontation/arguing. Do you think that scum enjoy getting into arguments? Or that they enjoy being a point of contention? My personal take on this is really when it suits them. Or they're forced into it. I don't think many scum actually enjoy being the center of attention therefore even otuside of Gamma I consider the people who are always sorta in the conversation but not enough to ever be about it.

I think this is a restatement of the 2nd argument unless I'm mistaken.

No I think they're different, townies have to figure out the game. Scum only has to pretend to. In that regard, he doesn't need to go out and seek answers, he can just pretend to have them.

[unwnd]

Looked back a little bit and saw that AGar had a case on Hayker as well, and now just happens to be dead

I don't really feel like that was a set-up on scum's part to condemn Hayker, I think this has so far even without seeing everything

Been a pretty good wagon

[unwnd]

I'm feeling pretty good about Hayker just being deflated scum, funny in hindsight where I worried the wagon was just a means of apathy but to my surprise, no

[unwnd]

I'm no hyperposter so let me know if my stream-of-consciousness thoughts become too overbearing thanks

Looking back and seeing that this day hasn't gone on that far and Hayker got himself run up pretty quick. I almost thought Hayker was slowly built into a case but literally he hasn't even made a single post this phase I think?

[unwnd]

I lied he has one about macho

Thrilling

[unwnd]

Kazyan what I want to know based on looking backwards is that you kinda went 'ok yup Alchemist' and now you're on 'ok yup Hayker' like clearly that wagon was wrong and I don't know why you're willing to not consider your own grievances?

[unwnd]

And this is not just 'well he's the leading wagon so I should vote him', based on a few things you seemed pretty convinced that Alchemist was scum. That's what I mean by grievances. When I'm wrong it makes me re-assess my thoughts, but instead your most recent post is basically saying that we should hammer the guy

Don't get it twisted, I think Hayker is scummy but now that I realized this day actually hasn't been going on that long I hesitate to think why you believe it's a good time to just call it here

[unwnd]

I'll take your thoughts in consideration but don't think Gamma is a dope by any means and would be able to fake that conversation

[unwnd]

What I need from you even if you're telling the truth is your reads as those will become what I will make you liable on. You made a mistake: move on and rectify it.

[unwnd]

3) Force an easy town lynch on the scummy looking town doctor.

Like, explain what this means?

[unwnd]

I'm not trying to provoke you hayker but I'd really like if you moved onto different things. I wasn't even in this game until now and I know that your PZ read is the only substantial take you've made. Dannflor believes you could be defending him as a mate and he is being subservient to you (and your claim) because of this.

[unwnd]

Honestly, unless I'm all sorts of wrong about this game and like the NPOM/unwnd slot is scum it feels like mafia have given up. That's part of why I was so quick to jump to the Zito as scum theory simply because he was one of the few attempting to do *something* this day phase. But maybe the simpler solution is just that scum don't want to touch this day phase with a ten foot pole.

So the activity is telling to you in terms of what's going on? I could possibly see that, but right now I think the only people who have truly engaged are me, you, PZ, and maybe Kazyan. Scum aren't usually prompted into activity, it's all based on aligned self-interest. You were mentioning in your small thoughtrant that you worry Gamma's activity would be telling, but I don't know if scum are just cornered. It doesn't feel that simple to me, rather I believe they're just waiting for their next best move. This is why I mentioned the game I was in (Innocent Things). I was scum there and I found myself having nothing to hide behind. Both me, FL and even nopoint were the most active posters on D1. The activity in that regard is telling to me that scum is not exactly directing the game, rather just finding comfortable ways to force content. We may have posted a lot but I don't feel like we necessarily controlled who was living or dying, rather our MO was mostly what I described.

[unwnd]

hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feel

Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lol

[unwnd]

I mean

I agreed with PZ(?) when he mentioned that you being IC is kinda screwing with things. If you're on the wrong track then I imagine they'd just let you drive yourself into madness. It makes me wonder however on the end, because there should be only be about 3 scum in this game, and I know for a fact there are more than 3 people who are simply not posting or contributing

[unwnd]

hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feel

Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lol

did you mean to include a number there?

The one you were scum in if that helps

[unwnd]

Taking a nap but will respond to you after 2ndchosen

[unwnd]

Gamma/Hayker/Papa. GG.

I don't understand where you see this, could you explain a bit further?

[unwnd]

unwnd
While I like the consideration of the scum agenda I see no reason why you didn't cover Hayker's 3rd potential agenda, however unlikely it may be.

Is gamma's response or lack thereof in line with what you read on them?

I feel like I should be taking the whole '3rd agenda' as some kind of joke lol

It's telling in ways that feed into my confbias and nothing else

[unwnd]

hello
I'm still thinking we should push Elements or unwnd, scum 100% was sheeping the IC I feel

Gamma you're giving me Mini Normal vibes lol

did you mean to include a number there?

The one you were scum in if that helps

There’s only one recently where I was
Does it look like that one?

Yes from where I'm sitting

Just wondering where your head is at

[unwnd]

I wrote a bit about my concerns a page or two back

[unwnd]

Gamma I odn't really feel like reiterating my points. Just talk to me at this level and see what comes of it

That will always matter more to me instead of trying to condemn someone with my words

[unwnd]

Side-note: I do love condemning people with my words actually that's a lie

But I also would prefer not to condemn someone on misunderstanding so yeah

[unwnd]

you to actually explain your read without force-feeding you any lines

..Is this typically the notion you would take as town? I never took you as someone who plays his cards close to his chest

[unwnd]

I definitely wouldn't consider it vague and I'm not sure what giving me ammo means frankly

It's all a couple of pages back if you ever wanting to read it, but simply reiterating it didn't seem serviceable to you (or me)

[unwnd]

I'll try to condense my thoughts without completely borrowing from things already said

Why are you being so hesitant in your words Gamma. Even now it feels like you're waiting for me to take the first gesture. Which is funny to me, because I already did that not even two or three pages back. If you don't want to read it: Fine. It just seems like you took everything I said and went 'well it's just meta' when that isn't even close to the truth. I'd scumread your behavior independently of (you), but it just so happens that (you) are in this game, and I would expect a lot more.

This is all the meta I would have on (you).

This is a bit vague so I'll be more direct. I don't think your efforts thus far are scumhunting. I think that you're just biding your time with the thread, and to me it looks like you're struggling to even fake content at this point. As for why I feel that way? It's your attitude and the way you've seemingly brought yourself to conclusions. A lot of your responses to the thread read to me like someone who doesn't wanna put the effort in as scum, so to compensate they try not to make disputable claims. Everything you've said and done isn't out the realm of town, but I don't see where it's taking you and I'm starting to think it's fake for that reason alone.

[unwnd]

I'm being reserved because I'm that way across p much all my games since I can't put in the exact effort I want to put in for all of them, so I'm pulling my punches in all of them. I'll put in a concerted effort to sort the entire game if I get a good chance, but I don't want to push myself into focusing on X game when I have others I feel might deserve my time more.

Ah try not to join so many games then? I can slightly empathize but I can't do it for the sake of this thread.

This game is becoming a bit flat which leaves me slightly uneasy

[unwnd]

Have been busy a bit but

Self-vote from Hayker pretty much says he gives up, which is kinda unfortunate but red is red either way. There's no way I can believe a town-aligned Doctor self-vote and if they do

I'm disappointed lol

[unwnd]

Gamma, this is the exact type of posting I do as scum. I understand you are strapped for time, but you need to be spending your precious time in thread stating your own reads, defending stances, pushing people. Right now, you're simply making vague stances and asking other people to fill in the gaps. That's not towny, that's scum trying to create the illusion of content.

Focus less on asking other people what their opinions are when you need to be looking at the thread and generating content yourself, at least if you're town and want to win the game.

Also I really really feel 2ndchosen1 is town but I also think he's one of the easier miselim targets in the game so be aware of that

This is what I’m doing to try and form reads right now, at least for the second post. I don’t want to start at square one just yet so right now I’m probing stuff that sticks out from recent posting in order to see how people respond, which will make my reads develop.
Since thread is gonna close soon I wanna state unwnd is a bit of a pocket SR because I don’t like how he presented the meta point against me and he is low key obvtown in his town games and I can’t see that here

Are you sure that you can't see that here merely because I've suggested your head?

[unwnd]

I just feel like you mostly ignored everything I've said against you and tried to break my argument down as simply meta

When I've proved that isn't the case

[unwnd]

You acknowledge my #965 which pretty much has no indication of meta.

I can't remember if I asked for your reads, but if you don't want to continually argue the same point over and over (because I expect you to keep going lolmeta) then let's start there

[unwnd]

Let's just

Not focus on meta. #965 is my condensed thoughts on you. I do not believe meta to be a complete tell, rather something to consider. What I dislike of you is your own hesitance in your words. Even now, you only have a 'Pocket SR" on me instead of a full scumread. If I'm scum, then I want you to give it your all instead of this half-assed nonsense you've been doing so far. If I have to provoke you, then so be it.

[unwnd]

I kinda read that and to be honest your words bewildered me

All I can think about is like

'Okay'

[unwnd]

unwnd what are your non-gamma reads

Looks kinda like this

{Dannflor, unwnd}
{Lunar, 2ndchosen1, PZ}
{Elements, NSG, Kazyan}
{Gamma, Hayker}

[unwnd]

The most confident reads in the upper brackets are Lunar and PZ. Most confident lower is a bit more trifling, but I still think Gamma is scum and I'm pretty sure Hayker gave up. That would only leave one hypothetical partner to figure out. I just got done with a game against Lunar so I can verify their behavior for you. It's vastly different, and he was really scummy (I literally made a too-scummy-to-be-scum call on them) and this game looks nothing like that. The meta here is valid because it's a new player who hasn't established nuance in their behavior. 2ndchosen1 looks fine, though I do admit that's more of a sheep. I think PZ's hesitance and consideration for the lim is striking, and the more I sit with it the more I think that Hayker wasn't trying to distance his mate by accrediting a townread on him, rather was just forcing content. PZ's response to all of this to me doesn't feel like they're trying to make an audience around their interaction, which is definitely something scum are more prone to do.

The {Elements, NSG, Kazyan} area to me is the one I need to sort the most. They're lower not because they are verifiable scum, rather I have less reason to townread them compared to everyone else. Elements is placed here because I'm biased towards myself and so far I feel like I'm being given shitty reasons to be considered scum. It slightly tilts me, but not enough to where I'd start thinking 'everyone who is against is my enemy' way. I just wonder for (Elements) why they're choosing to hold onto NPOM and not interact with me when I've proven that I'm more than willing. I also just feel a sense of...complacency in their posts. A lot of confbias but it doesn't feel particularly townie to me, because I don't know how they got there. NSG needs more content and I think Kazyan was surprisingly OK with Hayker's death, and if I were tinfoiling a slot It'd be him, because his responses seemed the most prepared.

[unwnd]

oh, kazyan has sunk down a bit more to null for me since 940. i think a lot of my read was based on the idea that he actually was hectic, and he made a comment that seemed really hectic-town-indicative to me in 215, the "reactions more important than the act itself" point. given that he (as i now believe / know) isn't and given some tonally kind of scummy posts like 632 he's dropped

Yeah I'm tinfoiling him a good amount too, even if our reasons aren't fully similar

[unwnd]

Actually that post you highlighted pings me a lot, reads to me like fake affirmative action "towniness", like what was the point of that lol

[unwnd]

Affirmative action was probably the wrong thing to say there

I'll rephrase: It looked he made such a deliberate point to basically say 'OK guys, here's the blatantly obvious thing townies should do, because I as well am town'

[unwnd]

Yeah I'm not with the new jargon at all so I had to look that up

What do you think of Elements NSG?

[unwnd]

oh yeah and in case i haven't said anything on the subject yet which i'm not sure if i have i think we're green light on hayker dying today

He literally self-voted and gave up, I kinda think his mates are just lying low after the fact to avoid spew

[unwnd]

I actually don't mind that thought from you

Expand on elements a bit more? Is it just associative?

[unwnd]

I'm very comfortable with my vote on elements right now. He pushed someone elses vote, opportunistically hopped on the lunar wagon, OMGUS voted me. I feel the pressure is where it is needed for now.

Can you explain your last two votes elements?

*they
The LM vote was the same reasoning as asking for Ben to vote NPOM
The vote on you was an "I ignore your opinion of not liking naked votes"

Reading elements+Hayker right now

There's a strong interaction between the two early, but then it mostly peters out. Hayker retains a decent amount of skepticism towards them but Elements doesn't seem to comply all too well, and actually switches over to Gamma despite what you highlighted Dann

[unwnd]

Gamma do you like busing as scum? This might sound like a stupid question, but entertain it anyways

[unwnd]

I'm very comfortable with my vote on elements right now. He pushed someone elses vote, opportunistically hopped on the lunar wagon, OMGUS voted me. I feel the pressure is where it is needed for now.

Can you explain your last two votes elements?

I like Alchemist and Gamma
VOTE: penguin

Why vote Penguin here?

I've still got a large chunk of the player list to get through

I know you said you tend to vote most everyone, but why are you still doing votes equivelent to RVS votes. This feels very much like active lurking to me.

I'm fond of NSG's reappearance so far

This could just be a game where scum kinda sucks and they're rolling over

[unwnd]

I stated it before but I'd be absolutely fucking floored if Hayker was town at this point

If somehow? Somehow, he flips town

I'd have to rethink a few things, maybe the people who are voting him I'd be more keen about (besides Gamma)

[unwnd]

vote:elements

Will get a better post up tonight, finally have internet setup in my new place wont have to post with my phone tonight.

unvote

I still think elements is worth looking at but I don't think any pressure will form on elements today. Currently re-rereading todays posts. Will do some isoing afterwards

Jesus this looks awful

[unwnd]

Does Hayker say to elements 'hey partner we are going to distance and I'm gonna vote you K? I'll write up a big ol' distancing post just for you' then after he realizes he doesn't wanna effort just unvotes?

[unwnd]

Like the constant 'yeah guys gonna catchup' and now self-votes makes me feel very strongly about a redflip, so I'm reading his posts looking for associative tells

[unwnd]

Maybe in his mind he realized distancing would suck or something, so he backed off

There's just a lot of weird between the two, one perception I could look at it is

Hayker trying to have one more consistent read out of Elements, but there's so much left unanswered that I dunno if I wanna believe that

[unwnd]

Yeah I think that "solve" makes me feel the most comfortable, I would actually go elements first over Gamma because Gamma has been pretty adamant about Elements too

[unwnd]

I don't floss at all and I really should

Last dentist appointment they told my mouth would be rated at like a C+/B-

[unwnd]

Should I not be town reading you

I mean I'm Town, so in that sense you should be. But I don't think that's necessarily a good reason to think I'm Town. I'm more surprised that you don't know I'm Town because I keep saying things and then you keep agreeing. We are constantly on the same page, yet you seem to have a lot of doubt about me. Maybe it's my posting style or something.

Please do not make posts like this

[unwnd]

Trying not to think too hard about the night results, but I will say Gamma's death confirms to me a few things (outside of being wrong)

[unwnd]

So

Let's just do some dirty wagonomics first

Vote count 2.final

with 10 votes in play, it took 6 to make a decision. day 2 ended.

execution

Hayker [6]:

Gamma Emerald

, unwnd, Lunar Martian, Elements, Kazyan,

Hayker

[HAMMER]

Not voting [4]:

northsidegal,

Papa Zito

, 2ndchosen1,

Dannflor

mod notes

~ yeet

flavour

Logic persists there is one scum on the wagon. It also tells me that scum were probably fine with Hayker's death and my thoughts on this likely have a semblance of truth. My brain wants to default to Elements but with Gamma being town I want to think a bit harder about things. It doesn't seem right to go 'welp Gamma was town' and then just vote Elements.

[unwnd]

Gonna scan Hayker again even if his content is really bare

[unwnd]

K im back there isn't shit to look at lol

The only thing that seemed of note was what we talked about in regards to Kazyan around EoD. I was feeling pretty good about the people who were there just shooting the shit really, and I still maintain I liked NSG's entrance. The idea of (scum roll over and die) is still plausible in my head, and know that me not entertaining Elements immediately is just a means to be thorough; I kinda don't wanna think about NSG being scum at the moment

[unwnd]

2ndchosen, your position on Hayker on re-read overnight is a bit concerning. Your first post indicates extensive experience with him, yet you remained kinda passive towards his claim and everything else going on. Why? Did you hesitate to think he was scum, and is so, why did you let him die anyways? You're not on his wagon but you still scumleaned him for ??? reasons. The only thing I could find is your #911 where you said "I don't care about KH mafia, I feel it's pretty easy to change gameplay even minutely, this game is currently more important." I don't know if this comment is referring to a meta read or something but it's pretty bland lol

[unwnd]

I'm pretty certain where the shot came from/who did it but prefer not to reveal it

No this isn't a funny way of saying I did it

[unwnd]

I have some thoughts to share but unfortunately my WiFi is down so it’ll have to wait until (hopefully) later today.

Do you think my NSG read is too preemptive?

[unwnd]

VOTE: 2ndchosen1

I don't hate it

But where does it come from exactly? As in, your posts to me didn't seem like they had a thought process I could follow

[unwnd]

VOTE: 2ndchosen1

I don't hate it

But where does it come from exactly? As in, your posts to me didn't seem like they had a thought process I could follow

2ndchosen1's posts look really safe and inoffensive to me--even when he disagrees with someone, the points are more the vein of providing nuance/completeness than 'you are wrong because of reasons'. This makes me think he might be the jailkeeper laying low.

i would like to hear people's thoughts on the merits of a massclaim today

I see no way that this would benefit the town.

I'm not really thinking about who is playing what from a mechanics standpoint, in an assumption that Dannflor thinks (JK) is scum, it's not like holding onto that role is critical. What do you think of Elements thus far?

[unwnd]

Hayker - The claim
NPOM/unwnd - lack of any interaction with Hayker D1
Gamma or Papa for the third from poe

Gamma and papa are both dead so curious how this plays into why you just think it's me

[unwnd]

If I'm entertaining the kill (even if I said I wouldn't), I just choose occam's razor every time. Scum kill people who are townie and those they can't ML. The only time reads from kill targets come into play if said read(s) is pure enough to where they either 1) are town by the way the read is formed 2) the read seems to be made in such a way that deems to incriminate scum. I don't think either applies because PZ wasn't an established presence, and he never really got a chance to elaborate on his thoughts. I think if I had to make an absolute guess, scum killed PZ because of EoD stuff and a bit of panic. I went into this game thinking that scum were pretty content with Hayker dying, but looking at the wagon alone and the deaths reflected makes me think otherwise. NSG was kinda right in that regard, wagonomics probably doesn't serve much purpose unless you think the placement of a certain vote is incriminating. In that regard, I know I'm town and the front end of the wagon seems alright to me, with the latter half likely just containing one scum, no more no less.

I think Hayker got himself into a bad position, but scum wasn't really attentive. It was more like a 'Hayker fucked himself' moment, because like

Hayker was pretty unanimously scumread right? If my scummate is going down I'm gonna just go 'yup it's him' to save my own ass or I'm gonna look the other way. I felt like Gamma was the one who was being complicit in this plan initially but I'm not gonna sit here and eat more crow than I have to. I think 2ndchosen1 is a good vote in terms of the latter, because I just didn't feel like he wanted to commit. He kept his Hayker thought at arms reach despite the fact he seemingly has the most amount of experience with him. Meta isn't an ultimate tell or anything like that but as I mentioned before..why did he just sit and let Hayker die. Reads like fear of commitment and afraid of saying too much.

VOTE: 2ndchosen1

[unwnd]

Hayker - The claim
NPOM/unwnd - lack of any interaction with Hayker D1
Gamma or Papa for the third from poe

Gamma and papa are both dead so curious how this plays into why you just think it's me

Gamma and Papa being town mean my town reads are wrong. Doesn't say anything about my scum reads.

Who else besides me is scum?

[unwnd]

I just don't really understand why you remain obtuse about my presence, I said it before but NPOM is no longer in this game. You have a decent amount of people who think you're scum. It feels like you're not reading current events and instead come in here sticking with basically D2 reads at this point. That was why I quoted your post in regards to your townreads, because I would imagine you'd be thinking that your train of thought was possibly wrong.

[unwnd]

I take more than slight offense that it is not based on me more

Being a bit lazy in some aspects but I'll pick it up tommorow

[unwnd]

if you'd like to help me townread you it would be a massive help if you could give as long or as short of an explanation as you want as to why you think you're playing your towngame this game and how you think your town and scum metas are meaningfully different (if they are)

i don't expect this or anything, you don't have to if you don't want to and i already lean on you being town more than other slots but it genuinely would help me a lot.

I'm willing to entertain it. I don't think it's personally scummy to defend yourself or uphold a status. I find a lot of the time you actually see a good amount of fake humbleness from scum who are afraid to defend themselves. As for why this is my towngame, it's because to be blunt I actually give a shit about what's going on. As scum, I spend too much time postulating and end up doing nothing with it. I consider this to be a bit of rust in some departments but it's not fully encompassing. It actually kinda annoys me to some extent that I keep reading NPOM was obvtown when I've been putting in a decent amount of work to uphold my own stature. That in itself should be telling enough, because if you guys were just townreading NPOM, why would I go out of my way to tarnish that with less-than-perfect play? That's another tell of my scumgame, where I make way less errors as the backspace key is always on my keyboard.

[unwnd]

I really believe in the timing and necessity of posts. I'm very much a player who is trying to figure out the gamestate instead of individual tells, even if I use them for a foundation. This is just the way I prefer to play the game. I'm always considering what is happening in front of me, but it only means so much. This is why I posed the questions I did and approached the game in the matter I have when I replaced, because such reads are only of value in the split second it's created. Let me explain: I believe that we're not immutable people. I believe it is not inherently scummy to change your mind. It all requires intent, and some kind of specificity. I'm not really satisfied in just saying 'this guy is scum', I want to pinpoint the exact instance of what you were thinking, why you did it, and how you did it. That basically just breaks down what makes this game fun for me and you can read that part however you want.

[unwnd]

Last thought about this tangent

When I mean 'i make way less errors', I meant that I'm scared of them. I start thinking 'oh, if I make this read or do this thing, I'll get scumread for it'. I sometimes do this thing where I'll make the right townie play but do it as scum. As town, I'm not afraid of my mistakes because I know I can rectify them. I might have been wrong on Gamma but there's still plenty of game left and I have a chance to be right.

[unwnd]

2ndchosen, do you consider yourself not very good at having raw interactions with people? A lot of your posts seem very isolated and not really tuned into what's happening in front of you.

[unwnd]

Mental errors in lpgic, not necessarily just syntaxes

[unwnd]

That one was just mobile though lmao

[unwnd]

Any dissonance you feel between now and recent games is just paranoia

Or me being busy. If you guys really think I shoot PZ because I'm worried that he scumread my slot I don't think I have a proper combination of words to describe how insane that'd be. PZ died because he's town, and furthermore, I personally hate looking into night kills and assuming anything. My vote on 2ndchosen is not a full reflection of night death, rather lessening of PoE. If you think I'm scum based on a PoE then by all means approach me at that angle, because I cannot work with 'youre scum because a dead townie said so' lol

[unwnd]

I'm a bit backloaded right now and it's my fault. I shouldn't give a fuck about people sussing me but I do, mostly because I don't want to die without correcting a previous mistake

I'm also a bit confbiased to the pace right now, feels like scum has very weak influence

[unwnd]

2ndchosen I'll get to you eventually because you asked me a few things

[unwnd]

I am really backed up (pretty sure I already said this) and it's a bit of my fault. I think that right now for the sake of the game I am willing to risk a vote onto elements, and you can consider this a declared intent

[unwnd]

I get I'm ignoring you 2ndchosen but

I'll worry about that later, in my mind I've already settled on Elements for various reasons

[unwnd]

I'm not exactly thrilled by it either Kaz don't worry

[unwnd]

I'm gonna be completely honest with you guys

If I have a misunderstanding with either of you (2ndchosen, Elements) then I'd rather just work it out in real time instead of combing through your ISO and making a decision. Elements, I've tried multiple times to get you to work with me in the present instead holding me accountable for whatever you thought NPOM did/didn't do. So far your take on me has been least sensible than 2ndchosen, but part of me hesitates because I think you're getting to the point of insensibility, so much that I wonder if you just really really believe in what you're saying and not just trying to force a narrative onto the thread. If you were scum here then I dunno if your best option is to just keep pushing me despite the derision that Dannflor (and to some extent, Kazyan) have exclaimed.

2ndchosen, my complaints are a little similar but ultimately I just want to see you here and I don't know why you necessarily townread me. Wouldn't I be more suspect for voting you in the first place if you were just town? The whole 'yeah just waiting for you to respond my questions' deal made me feel like you were waiting for me to give you something to respond to instead of being naturally curious about me.

[unwnd]

As for me, I have no issue resorting to self-defense. I think I've been very townie and it agitates me a bit for this seated paranoia to take place. I'm not a miracle worker and I can't just will the scum away, and I certainly can't read a game that stagnates. I believe that old information is good as a reference point but what I ultimately decide is what happens here today.

[unwnd]

I love that a lot

Goddamn I'm fucking pocketed Kaz

[unwnd]

That's such a good way to organize your reads, I love when people bring a unique way to interpret their thoughts (even if visual) to the game

[unwnd]

UNVOTE:

Just wanted to say this is appreciated

I'm backloaded to hell right now and this game will require the most out of me compared to the other ones, so I want to curate my thoughts very carefully before I give it more attention

[unwnd]

The fact I'm not here and just arguing my way around conversation should tell you that my hesitance is of town

[unwnd]

I'm awake Dann and I'm interested in bouncing back and forth with you

[unwnd]

Unfortunately this game is not as easy as I anticipated, and right now I have two people who have gone beyond the simplistic 'if they're not trying as much as they're scum.' This is pretty much hubris at this rate. I really like some things Kazyan has done this phase. I really like that 2ndchosen contested me and seems interested in actually responding to his questions (which I keep putting off). I like when NSG pops in and has these thought sessions with herself as well, and I even like some things elements has done on a tonal level.

This is an obvious problem, and part of me has been really scared to approach it. It's not Xylo mind you, but I digress.

[unwnd]

I feel a bit lost with this game at the moment

Why did you say this game will require the most/a great amount of attention from you?

I kinda already answered you below honestly, I don't believe in digging preemptive graves for people. If someone is scum based on misunderstanding then I want to sort it before it's too late

[unwnd]

I'm willing to take a dirty meta read on NSG if you think it's strong enough, but a bit of elaboration helps

[unwnd]

I don't really read #1307 as anything at all personally. I maintain what I said about 2ndchosen in that I liked that he seems to really care about those questions being answered, but in the same breath I feel like a fucking cock for not doing so. I'm sort of at an impasse, I'd rather just hash things out but 2ndchosen always seems to elude my timing and he's just here answering or bringing about questions that would require me to take a more individual approach. I have to be honest and say I'm not really sure where his vote on me comes from.

[unwnd]

I find the dissonance between Elements #1268 with a lot of 'oh man, my reads are crap and I should've died BUT I am very certain unwnd is scum here' and then after a few posts going 'ok maybe I scumread Kazyan more than unwnd' a means of trying to convince oneself in very peculiar ways. Refer that back to Kazyan who votes me on the basis of what I said about reading the gamestate

[unwnd]

I meant 2ndchosen with above

Pretty sure Kazyan has hard townread me

[unwnd]

I think scum's goal here is surviability. Do what seems the most townie. I think 2ndchosen would fit this description the best but I worry that they simply just believe in their way of playing. From what I understood, 2ndchosen is from another site where Hayker invited them to play here. I think 2ndchosen in one of his responses to me why he didn't vote Hayker initially is that 'we typically don't vote the doc if there isn't a cc.' It's such a puzzling way to justify not voting a mate when all the cred is waiting for you. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure Hayker didn't focus on 2ndchosen that much? If my memory serves me right. You'd think with the direct relationship they would be more present in reading each other, but instead there is a clear distance between the two. The awkwardness there made me want to press 2ndchosen further, but instead of getting something I could pick up on, he just still has this very alien approach to the game that really doesn't match the way I think about it.

[unwnd]

I'm townreading Lunar really heavily in terms of them being a relatively new player and not having a nuanced town/scum game to pick up on intentional habits to manipulate me (or others)

[unwnd]

Read this however you want but it's just us 3 talking this game becomes way less scary to me lmao

[unwnd]

Tell me what you both think about my #1331 when you get the chance

[unwnd]

The way I looked at it and why I mentioned that is that I was sorta talking myself through 2ndchosen's behavior. My vote is on him for a reason, and if his agenda was just 'do what looks the most townie' then I could justify my vote further. It turned into a bit of unintentional waffling on my part though because what I really desire is not necessarily answering stupid questions but interacting in real time kinda like this right now. I really don't know why doesn't prefer that, or plays like a island.

[unwnd]

I guess another thought I could entertain is

Does scum care if their partner survives as well? Occam's razor suggests yes, and that bussing would only come in play at this point if it became an inevitability. I don't really feel like Hayker got bussed in that sense, and the mafia were just aware his time was up. I mean heself-hammered for christ's sake. So with them just 'well shit' then I don't really feel this team is all that organized. You might disagree with that NSG but I feel like if the team were watching each other's backs carefully Hayker would've never made the mistake he did. All of D2 was quite short in hindsight with everyone pretty much going 'wtf was that Hayker'. What does that mean for this day? Elements has pretty much been close to the most common scumread and I don't really feel anyone has defended him? Why would scum after losing one mate just decide to throw the other aside unless they were very confident they were fooling town in the first place.

[unwnd]

It's not a thought I want to paranoia myself into consdering this point until a few things happen. I could also maybe see Kazyan/NSG in that position as well which is why I asked you more about your confidence in NSG read

[unwnd]

You saying that does not help the paranoia I was referring to You/Kaz already lol

[unwnd]

Just the whole feeling of 'is it really just elements'

Cause if true, then what I said about scum being really confident they can win this game with another mate down is telling.

[unwnd]

Just wraps around to what I said about the whole bussing situation that sits in the back of my mind taunting me

[unwnd]

Regardless I just wanna see what 2ndchosen has to say and see if we can't meet compromise, and maybe Elements as they seemed to be coming around to Kaz possibly being scum

[unwnd]

My list looks like this right now even if it's 7 people

Dann
Me
Lunar
NSG
Kaz
Elements
2nd

I'm absolutely confident one of 2nd/Elements flips scum, and now it's been a case of being choosy and determining which reality feels the most true to me. I just need a bit more before I determine if I'm flipping my vote or staying on here. Would you be willing to trust my judgment (despite being wrong on Gamma) if that were the case?

[unwnd]

I don't think I'm willing to commit 'this is the scumteam right now' but if they both ended up being scum I could take half-credit

[unwnd]

Yeah I'm a bit puzzled how you absolved yourself of your vote off me? My initial take was that you were suspecting me cause I was dodging your questions but ???

[unwnd]

There's also a readslist from me quoted by LM above your post

[unwnd]

The answers to the gamestate are pretty much littered throughout this phase alone. I feel like some part of you is not really reading cause I've been leaning into how I feel about this phase slowly

[unwnd]

Joindate doesn't reflect my mafia experience NSG, I was hoping my posts made that evidently clear

[unwnd]

What do you mean by solid listing?

[unwnd]

It depends who the hammer is because I'm choosy

[unwnd]

What do you mean by solid listing?

I see some of your game state analysis but it isn't enough for me to grasp onto.
.

FTR, I don't know how to work with this at all. What about it didn't seem understandable to you?

[unwnd]

I'm a little annoyed with how 2ndchosen is treating me and I can't determine if it's just scum unable to respond to pressure or town out in space

[unwnd]

His responses are just

So milquetoast. Like they're trying really hard not to offend anyone. That's the impression I got when he unvoted me as well

[unwnd]

Elements, right now in my mind I kinda think it's you/2nd. It seems that right now you're just coming around to 2nd possibly being scum but your vote remains on Kaz. Why? Do you think 2nd is just trying to get his mate by on an unsubstantiated TR?

[unwnd]

That seems fair. I think this is a fine split actually and I probably won't change my vote

[unwnd]

It's all right there man

I dunno why you refuse to read it, or at least clarify what you didn't find understandble lol

[unwnd]

I'm confused about night results honestly

And I've just been busy with moving and feel very isolated from mafia mindset right now

[unwnd]

I counter-claim that lol

Very odd to wake up and see myself in this position

I shot Gamma on N2 but I didn't wanna make it overtly obvious so I tried to sweep it mostly under the wrong. I then tried to shoot 2ndchosen last night but either he was protected by JK or I was just outright roleblocked

[unwnd]

I never breadcrumb or anything like that, scum typically looks for those

I'm either sitting on confbias that 2ndchosen was JK'd by his mate or I was rolebocked by a scum JK

[unwnd]

Sure let us initiate combat

I was pocketed mildly by that graph thing you did Kaz, that was good show on your part

VOTE: Kazyan

[unwnd]

No because I think 2ndchosen is scum and if Lunar just votes like an idiot he can just hammer me lol

[unwnd]

Just to be sure, what was the N1 shot?

NPOM did the shot for me but it was Penguin

Not sure if this was directed towards me

2ndchosen's wall of reads is confusing and Lunar thinking this could be SvS is also

Confusing

[unwnd]

If the breadcrumb has people being like 'oh so Kaz is real' then I just want to reiterate the fact breadcrumbs are not exclusively town and that Kaz knew a mislim was coming through and was just setting up for future days. Like, in context that crumb happens around the time town is mostly convincing to kill elements

[unwnd]

I still think Lunar is town here, even if there is some slight doubt in me making the same mistake as the newbie.

I just think 2nd is trying to wrap up this game and while they've always been a bit alien as well (I talked about this D3), it is all self-serving. Lunar speaks more outward and says ridiculous things towards people, while 2nd just monologues and has no coherent thought. Even my attempts to reach them falls on deaf ears because I don't think they care enough to try and fake conversation. Lunar is reactive yes but doesn't have a hidden agenda.

[unwnd]

Even though you're my CC I'm not sure if I'm ready to believe this is your first game of Mafia, you play with someone with varied experience

[unwnd]

Hayker invited you here? I'll give you some credit: You seemed to at least recognize that Hayker existed in this game as just lazily Ctrl+F'ing you there's about 60 results.

[unwnd]

I'm willing to call Alchemist and Hayker as light scumreads. I know I used Hayker's post as a template with which to lay out my thoughts, but that doesn't remotely mean Hayker is town.

HWS and Hayker are null. I decline to comment on Elements.

Why did your progression change here? I get how stupid this is but just entertain me

[unwnd]

Your read on Lunar starts off as strongest townread but then you make a post like #873 that seems to entertain an idea that contradicts your own thoughts, postulating on different teams. You do this again in #1220, with an interval between stating that you think is 'just okay' now. Lunar turns into someone you're willing to elim over the course of D3. Why did this read change and why do you think I'm lunar's partner? Is it because I think he's town, something you mostly agreed with up until about D3?

[unwnd]

There's such a dissonance between you three. The only reason I'm asking you directly is to present my case as to why I'm town and nothing you've done makes sense. I don't know, I really do just think Lunar is town and that maybe that feeling I had on D3 was because RNGesus decided that 3 people who really knew each other happened to be scum together. It's the same argument I gave 2ndchosen, but if you guys were so attuned to one another through experience then why does it seem like the content between you three was so barren.

[unwnd]

It was indeed lazy but it invokes a response from you and the others anyways

[unwnd]

Any paranoia you have towards my slot I'd prefer to be resolved through conversation instead of reading stuff and being like 'oh is Dann gonna vote me cause he thinks AGar died for reads'

[unwnd]

unwnd, what confused you about the night results? like, what was your reaction to elements flipping town? I'm somewhat surprised you tried to shoot 2ndchosen

I wasn't really planning to claim vigil unless I had to. The whole 'confused about night results' was a means to distance myself from the shot but also had a bit of truth to it as well lol

[unwnd]

As far as trying to shoot 2ndchosen? It was a bit of impatience on my part. I was either ready to be wrong again or hopefully be right. If there were anything I felt towards Elements it would mostly be regret, as I didn't really do anything besides stubbornly park my vote onto 2nd. Even now, I'm acting a bit selfish. That's just how I am as PR because I shoulder responsibility, even more so because of night actions that I can take. I guess I wanted redemption for the Gamma shot in that sense

[unwnd]

I don't know if you've been paying attention but I am very keen on the interpretation between scummy behavior and misunderstanding. If town all played a perfect game then mafia would never win and we'd be able to sort out who's scum and who's town just by fundamental tells. It's not like that however, therefore you end up killing some of your fellow town. I think for me personally, I want to give someone the chance to prove their innocence. I tried this multiple times with 2ndchosen but at some point I have to just make a decision. This is not necessarily related to me, but it does envelop my behavior towards other players in the game, where it's not that being wrong makes me feel bad, it's being wrong and knowing if I just understood someone a little better I could've been right.

[unwnd]

I don't know if you've been paying attention but I am very keen on the interpretation between scummy behavior and misunderstanding. If town all played a perfect game then mafia would never win and we'd be able to sort out who's scum and who's town just by fundamental tells. It's not like that however, therefore you end up killing some of your fellow town. I think for me personally, I want to give someone the chance to prove their innocence. I tried this multiple times with 2ndchosen but at some point I have to just make a decision. This is not necessarily related to me, but it does envelop my behavior towards other players in the game, where it's not that being wrong makes me feel bad, it's being wrong and knowing if I just understood someone a little better I could've been right.

For what it's worth, I do believe that your stance on intepretation/misunderstanding is genuine, and that you actually do that in both your towngame and scumgame.

But, to Dann, notice that this policy--prioritizing the cleanup of misunderstandings--does not actually preclude looking over ISOs. You can do both, and looking over ISOs to figure out where a misunderstanding started would actually help.

I don't think I could've made the conclusions or dug out the instances that I've questioned you upon without looking at an ISO, same goes for other things

[unwnd]

The hammer is at 4 and I already disagree with the order

[unwnd]

Dann if you vote me over Kaz after that post I don't even know what to say lol

[unwnd]

I mean I'm willing to explain why, but I chose brevity instead

[unwnd]

I had a better thought while I looked at it last night, but to summarize it's just a lot of monologuing without purpose, which is funny to me because 2ndchosen/Kaz have basically taken the same approach. The other landmine there is at the end of the post where they say

possibility and just accept that if

we execute unwnd tonight

, I will use my

last shot

on Lunar and leave the rest to Datisi.

Like...cmon Dann.

[unwnd]

Need I remind you they've also questioned if the 2nd shot was a SK which is such a bizzare thing to do if you know you're the one making the shots

It feels a bit cheap to point something like that but why would a townie by thinking about a night action that involves more than one person

[unwnd]

I feel like you're just overthinking and believe it's me because of some unfounded reason. Why would I get myself into a willing CC battle when Kaz was townreading me? That's just literally making the PoE less. My shots make sense and my play for the most part makes sense. Not perfect mind you.

[unwnd]

I've chosen a more direct approach because at this point I feel confident in my thoughts. If that makes me scummy then I guess I have to be scummy, but in my bias scum only make decisions when they have to, or it benefits them. A lot of your wall (on skim) sorta leaves me in a position where I can't answer most of it, but the biggest explanation I can give towards myself is

I'd rather be wrong than be afraid of being wrong. I was willing to shoulder the blame on 2ndchosen which is why I took the shot, mostly because I have a growing impatience if I have a gun (lol) and because I felt the need to redeem myself. The process of convincing you and saying all of these things is because I know I'm town and I really just want you to trust in me. I said it prior and I hold myself to the same standard: It's not scummy to defend yourself, and I actually take this lesson very closely as I uh, made this mistake in another game. It was one with Lunar in it, where I started to think petapan (my other SE) was scummy cause he spent all this time trying to explain why it wasn't him. Meanwhile, Lunar kept waffling and made a bunch of 'oh im nervous and im unsure' stuff that I started to think was pure, fearing that peta just wanted to wrap the game up.

This ended up being wrong, and while peta/Lunar are not absolute exceptions (meaning, scum can pretend to be confident and vice-versa), I liked what peta did there and think from an outside perspective it was actually very townie, and that if something like I dunno

Makes sense? Then it probably is.

[unwnd]

Kazyan came into the day pushing unwnd/Lunar as the most likely pairing

and then claimed vig

what are you talking about

I believe in my ability as scum to convince, I'd just shit out some half-hearted solve posts and maybe a fake an ISO or two. I don't look at reads like they can't be changed.

[unwnd]

I'm...pretty sure they were on D3? I mean I saw the post where they started to say it was me/Lunar but I feel that doesn't matter.

[unwnd]

Yeah definitely some selfish desire there. I've had a few games recently as well as town where if I were just a little more selfish maybe I could've changed things for the better. You could see TENET where I was scumreading LLD and then tiltreplaced out because I felt like it would just be impossible to get her limmed (and other things mind you). I often play in a way where I want to consider the goodwill of town in my actions, even if there's like something that festers in me. Inadvisable maybe. Always better to have another dayphase sure. But..if it's right? It could do sooo much for town, and we wouldn't have to suffer like we're suffering right now lol

[unwnd]

I guess I understand what you're saying there more

But like, I'm not asking you to second guess yourself constantly

I'm just mystified why you haven't reconsidered Lunar at all I suppose?

I've considered them but I don't think their game is developed enough to be fooling me. It'd be much different if like say, Lunar were the IC and you were an unclear. You have more experience and more time to develop your own habits to fool me. Lunar was scum in Newbie not by saying incredulous things, rather never saying too much (even if that alone was very scummy) Here, I've latched onto a few instances of their posts and absolved myself that they really just believe the things they're saying. If I get fooled twice then I guess Lunar just has my number?

[unwnd]

Though I guess me saying 'they can't possibly fool me!' while already fooling me once is already ironic

[unwnd]

No it was Midwinter Night's Dream. I had a scumread on Lunar on D1 which I rescinded cause of doc claim, and even though I was right on Safebet I wasn't able to secure the victory

[unwnd]

That's just preposterous, X-Shots are typically either one or two

I have no limit to my shots btw

[unwnd]

Dann, if you give me time I am willing to case 2ndchosen.

Please?

[unwnd]

The reason I want to do this is

1) Show you I am town and willing to go the extra mile to prove that
2) Solidify my own thoughts, giving you or whoever is alive the following day something to work with (I doubt they keep me alive lol)

[unwnd]

2ndchosen is scum and I'm very dissapointed that people are townreading him. I'm sure you ask: why is he scum? Appeal to reason; it just makes sense. That just happens to be the angle I'm working with and I'll continue to do so. His play reeks of someone who got antsy (see: jittery) about being on a team of familiar mates and just was afraid of keeping the lid on. I've seen this happen before and been a victim of it. You roll scum with "comfortable" people or those you'd prefer to be on (any) team with, and somehow it gets that much harder to create dynamics. What you're seeing right now is a team with no possible agenda as they haven't thought that far. You're seeing players who admitingly have never induced forum (outside of Kaz, who is now dead) and are making inane plays/statements and being put against the most sensible. Like, why would they try to fit in? I looked into your wall Dann and I imagine a lot of the conclusions you make is that it makes sense for Kaz but like

What if I was the one doing this? Claiming 3-shot. Asking if there's a SK. Saying stuff like 'we typically don't vote the claimed doc' just add 2ndchosen into this. You'd probably think it's scum right? Or at the least, off my fucking rocker. This is not the case and I am willing to dig deeper, I just wanted to give you a snapshot of what I'm working with and the foundation of my reads.

[unwnd]

Yeah town has a lot of power, the informed isn't even really a PR in hindsight, so I'd expect them to have something to counter-act

[unwnd]

Saying stuff like 'we typically don't vote the claimed doc' just add 2ndchosen into this.

I was the one who said this

I seriously remember Hayker saying that am I getting delusional

[unwnd]

I'll look at 2ndchosen1 again with this lens

Do u still want the case cause like

I honestly don't like going hard on cases and just try to wing it (but I'll make the exception here)

[unwnd]

I got some work to do and will probably write a wall because while yes I love to be lazy

I also love to be right, and if I can convince others then that's just a bonus

[unwnd]

You don't see the forest for the trees Kaz. It's easy to say 'look! we interacted!' but how much of that was meaningful? How much of it determined a read. Something I could look back and account for. Answer is not many. The good news about 2ndchosen is that he doesn't have a lot of posts. I'll try not to retread already touched ground (e.g my posts on D3 about them).

Now, I wasn't around D1 so there is some missing context there, but I want to ask another simple question. How much of 2ndchosen's independent thoughts have come from a decision without an alibi? Maybe that doesn't make sense. How much of his decisions are made surrounding context already provided. How much of 2ndchosen's thoughts actually reflect on the thread and what is going on right now. 2ndchosen has intentionally chosen a thinking man's position, but what exactly is he thinking about? It has no variance. It has no meaning. Dann, you say 'well, it looks like they're considering the options' but that in itself is just decision paralysis. Something I believe 2ndchosen is very afraid of. Stopgap-- The only,

only

reason that 2ndchosen has decided that I am scum is simply because I was the first to do it. Go look at D3. Go look at D2 and how he townleans me as long as I leave him alone (hint: my focus was on Gamma that phase). Hesitance shouldn't come at the expense of simply not doing anything. I've considered the thought maybe we don't agree but I feel like Kaz has a point actually, that the attempts to interact were meaningless. A complete disconnect. I do however think those questions and things he was waiting on clearly show he has waited on nothing, which is why I chose not to directly respond to them.

It's a bit intentional on my part. I wanted to see if 2ndchosen would pursue these thoughts without being spoonfed, but instead all he has to show is how much of a perpetual catch-up he's stuck in. I'm very tired of it. Let's rewind again.

Alchemist clearly got wagoned and clearly died. What did 2ndchosen get out of his Alchemist vote on D1? Who knows, not even himself. There is no willingness in their words, there is no call to action. They're each made from an outward perspective,

almost as if he doesn't really have to care what he says

. This feeling is exacerbated by his

only

vote that day. He made this vote at #299! Literally didn't move it and just happened to be on the wagon of choice. I mean, that in itself is not scummy. It's the intent behind the lack of motion. He had a clear directed read on Alchemist and just never did anything with it. The one question he made towards Alchemist is so milquetoast in his #820. This becomes a trend the more you pay attention. Let's look at D2. Refer back to what I said earlier. Where is 2ndchosen now? I'll spoil it for you. He's saying a bunch of shit he'll never follow-up on in his #911. He places a vote onto NSG and does almost the same fucking thing he did with Alchemist. Just. It's all (hopefully) implied passivity.

My argument is not that you need to be aggressive or confident to be town. Scum can very well push mislims or pretend to under the guise of confidence. My argument is that he has done nothing to be considered merely passive or thinking about the gamestate. I am willing to go further than this but I almost lost this post as my computer just about crashed on me, but luckily Firefox saved my ass so you there you go. Not a very dramatic finish.

[unwnd]

Fun fact: I screenshotted what I posted now unfinished on my phone

just in case

I had to retype it.

I actually had another thought as I was thinking about gamestate and whatnot. He kept telling me 'well, where's your gamestate read?' 'You're all about that gamestate..where are the pieces on the board?' Like..is that all you have to say? And you're gonna scumread me because I didn't like, answer you sufficiently or something? The burden of proof has been on you from the moment we began our conversations, yet you just wanna skirt around the issue and then dig your nose further into the 'im catching up' book when we should be past that point. Literally only decided I'm scum because he has to at this point, and nothing else. He has no conviction. He has no grace. This kong. Has a scummy face.

[unwnd]

;_____;

[unwnd]

I poured my heart out on that read please reconsider

[unwnd]

I don't gain anything making a case out of my partner. Name one time you've seen a mate case their mate in a Xylo?

[unwnd]

I wanted to make that case not necessarily to sharpen my knife, rather show I don't have a partner. I'm not sitting here trying to win with another mate. I didn't have to reveal so much information or dig so deep knowing there was a backup. I could've just sat on my own words and be like 'K it's kaz and like someone else' and be all intentionally vague

[unwnd]

I feel like this is the make or break flip for you (although that's true regardless of alignment)

That right there should kinda show my intentions are pure. I'm neither 2ndchosen or Lunar's partner. I scumread one of them and I townread the other. I don't want to waver on this decision. I guess the only thing I'd feel fucking dumb about is misreading Lunar but this time I think I know better and there was a lot of townpings just even in their early ISO that made me think they're town. Meanwhile, just ISO'ing 2ndchosen makes it worse for me.

[unwnd]

Like, if I die I don't even get the chance. The game just ends and all my appealing has been because I know this. This wouldn't be my approach as scum

[unwnd]

No I'm pretty sure it's just because I scumread you and you've driven this false narrative to appropriate your own thread position

[unwnd]

honestly right now I'm just trawling through your meta unwnd to see if you ever use AtE like this as scum

You're kinda doing me dirty calling it that, like yes I have emotions but it's not to persuade you, my immediate response was to post a crying face lmao I'm sorry

[unwnd]

I don't consider that a crumb, it's just me being cheeky with my role

[unwnd]

Dann you're making my ass clench lol

[unwnd]

I didn't really consider the ramifications of the post honestly

I actually looked back at my own post saying 'I never breadcrumb' then looking at that post

It looks like a fucking crumb lol

[unwnd]

Lunar don't make me feel stupid for a second time here please

[unwnd]

Dann you had me so fucking nervous

Please do not feel like that makes in any sort incompetent, I was sweating once you started to get paranoid about us

Good shit all around, 2ndchosen you played this perfectly

[unwnd]

You did your absolute best and I'm proud you stuck with my nonsense

[unwnd]

Yeah you made this really competitive for me, I'm glad I could win the CC battle

Well met etc

[unwnd]

I intentionally used 2ndchosen's inconveniences to bolster my own thread accountability and intentionally ignored some of his posts towards me to make it seem like we weren't aligned yeah

The dichotomy of Me and Lunar v. 2ndchosen Kaz kinda just played out in my favor

Fuck IC though, I feel for you on many levels

[unwnd]

I'm just kinda glad I won the CC battle because I've held my own bias that I'm a better scum than town, meanwhile recently people I've been given the opposite impression from others

[unwnd]

That's a mangled sentence but hopefully point is across

I'm just releasing some dopamine man I hate Xylo

[unwnd]

Too scummy to be scum can work, it definitely worked on me as town lol

P-edit: It was just for the chaos aspect! It was never 'heh we don't respect Dann's IC presence'

[unwnd]

Like I said, I'd fucking hate to be in your position

IC is an evil role

[unwnd]

Why would you ever want to be clear, sometimes as town I really wish people would scumread me because it drives me

But my recent towngames I just keep being called obvtown and die n1

I fucking hate this

[unwnd]

You were great and I'm not just brown nosing cause I won

If we lost the opinion would stay the same, I hope one day we get to be same the alignment

[unwnd]

Huh

The dead PT thought Lunar was my partner