Mini Normal 2181 | College Basketball Players | Game Over

[borkjerfkin]

nvm that was to cabd

[borkjerfkin]

cabd: does what you think you know make DGB town?

p-edit: this is really fucking frustrating

[borkjerfkin]

cabd: does what you think you know make DGB town?

p-edit: this is really fucking frustrating

If you're scum, it would definitely be.

if i'm scum i don't have to give a

fuck

unless you're all on my buddy or me

if i'm town cabd is depriving me of agency and trying to play the game for me and that's not how i want to play

[borkjerfkin]

Anyways so ben and dgb are off the table.

he clearly has a reason for this and if DBG gets yeeted and is town and this would have helped me figure that out then, no, actually you're wrong

this isn't fucking rocket surgery

[borkjerfkin]

christ

[borkjerfkin]

noddy/ffery, help

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: pooky

[borkjerfkin]

cabd: does what you think you know make DGB town?

You have been on this site for 8 years.

pretend i'm not good at this game

or just read my wiki

[borkjerfkin]

that's wonderful but it has no basis in reality and I don't feel like i'm being fucking unreasonable lol

p-edit @cabd

[borkjerfkin]

I mean it could be because his play is the polar opposite of last scumgsme- no abating you and actively arguing

i'm not even fucking arguing except w/ prism

[borkjerfkin]

My point was you aren’t as pliable, if that makes sense

gee i wonder why that might fucking be

[borkjerfkin]

this whole jerking session isn't for you

[borkjerfkin]

I'd say bork was third party.

[borkjerfkin]

Do we wanna wagon skitter maybe?

skitter feels pretty legitimately in the same spot as me right now

[borkjerfkin]

Bork, wanna hold hands for once and humbly request a gladiate so we can get this over with?

what are we getting over with lol

[borkjerfkin]

It's going to take me a couple games to get over you, Prism, no matter what you flip

[borkjerfkin]

i think prism and bork can only be scum with like exactly each other because otherwise their thing doesn't make sense

i legitimately want to live in this world

[borkjerfkin]

i mean this was basically my 2934 and 2935 in which i elected not to go there

[borkjerfkin]

Too standoffish. Seems like.. upset at my getting the syr elim, keeps complaining about agency loss like I'm somehow telling him what to do?

You said the dgb wagon looked better than you thought it was going to be, then you almost immediately were like "actually she's crumbing something" and i want to know how based in reality that is and if it made her town

and if i know you you're pretty likely to just never share that info to the point where i can do anything with it

that particular post was also a response to DGB saying that there was potential scum motivation for getting that info for purposes of rolefishing, which i'm trying to explain isn't my aim here

[borkjerfkin]

I'd rather pooky then elements

[borkjerfkin]

I think pooky seems scummier than elements. I'm trying to find an avenue to scumread elements and failing

both are in your PoE, no?

[borkjerfkin]

I think pooky seems scummier than elements. I'm trying to find an avenue to scumread elements and failing

both are in your PoE, no?

I don't disagree but what are

your

reasons?

I didn't like the reasoning for going on that wagon; I thought of all the people on wagon pooky's vote looked the worst placed
I also don't like that the only defense he's offered is <reference to earlier self-meta convo>
also he's seen fit to totally ignore the interaction between cabd/you last night despite being present for it

only thing i see from elements is lack of effort / general opacity at times; doesn't really feel slimy to me

[borkjerfkin]

Those are good points, what was Pooky's reasoning to get on the wagon?

our messiah cabd will lead us to the promised land, ostensibly

[borkjerfkin]

What reasoning do you not like? Why is my vote the worst placed?

you didn't engage in really anyway, just stated that "oh look i get to get carried" which is phrased really weirdly and doesn't take any concern w/ what's going on with the read. Even I Prism I think had a certain amount of skepticism a la 2419

I dunno, I feel like someone had to be bussing and your vote looked bad to me

um what? If I wanted to ghost this thread I can just not post in it.

Ok, how do you feel about DGB now then?

[borkjerfkin]

our messiah cabd will lead us to the promised land, ostensibly

what's wrong with that reasoning?

not necessarily anything; it's just an easy thing to say when bussing if you're looking for a reason

[borkjerfkin]

i kinda like this prism

[borkjerfkin]

do you actually have a reason why Town!Pooky would not feel immense faith in Lord Cabd to deliver the Town into Salvation?

i said i did not like the way you phrased it nor the level of certainty you placed in it.
that's not saying "town you would not have sheeped cabd here"

[borkjerfkin]

well who on the ele wagon r the scum then? :/

is it time to go deeper into russia?

are we killing cabd?

who would you have been taking about if not cabd?

[borkjerfkin]

lol fuck off

unlikely prism/skitter team with the way that went down

pooky just still looks the worst to me hopping around as he's been

[borkjerfkin]

lol fuck off

unlikely prism/skitter team with the way that went down

pooky just still looks the worst to me hopping around as he's been

What is you Pooky case?

his play is utterly reactionary and doesn't seem to be making any attempt to legitimately sort anyone?
He even got into it with me a few nights ago and it went nowhere
His only defense boils down to "I'm town"
i'm not sure how he exactly even sorted cabd town but willingness to sheep just lacked any trace of paranoia and he's kinda covered it up by just fluffing about him

fuckity fuck

[borkjerfkin]

If I had to pick a specific team probly Bork/Elements.

hmmmmmmmmm

[borkjerfkin]

pooky's been avoiding that elements wagon despite calling them in their elim pool but is very eager to shift onto me when asked to

what's vc?

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: elements

[borkjerfkin]

I never crumbed doctor. I am an odd night vanilla cop. Vaxkiller is not a PR regardless of alignment.

can you show me where you crumbed the vax result?

if this is scum claiming their actual role i don't see really any point to crumbing a result in thread

[borkjerfkin]

How confident are we that bork is town again?

i am curious as to how this changed for you because it seems to be apropos of precisely nothing other than 3702

[borkjerfkin]

Pooky can i interest u in voting bork?

and now you've moved on to just lobbying which i find weird with that kind of stance

[borkjerfkin]

Not true, giving town a clear is easily worth a miselim

actually this doesn't give town a clear - a neopolitan would do that, but this claim doesn't.

i guess i would've just played this by hoarding info for my team rather than count on it to give me some kind of cred later on in the game (I think that's what you're suggesting)

[borkjerfkin]

your reaction to the elements wagon while it was happening was gross

explain

[borkjerfkin]

Realizing i dont hate the thought of voting you

I'm usually only at the "hey player X, vote Y with me" until I'm well past the "I don't hate the idea of voting you" point

[borkjerfkin]

literally the post before:

Bork get on elements please.

Where was pooky going exactly for how many days at this point?

I didn't have a townread on elements at that point in the game (or really ever outside of some really early stuff)

[borkjerfkin]

T
ben
noddy, ffery, vax
prism, skitter (in progress), dgb (If scum flips something nasty PRwise I'd be more inclined to town this, or if ben were to somehow flip scum in which case duh)
pooky
S

still kinda where i'm at

[borkjerfkin]

Why are vax and ffery town?

vax just keeps making town posts like 3619

ffery's interactions w/ syr early game make her an unlikely partner for me.

like we can comb through isos if you have a counter viewpoint to either of those but i haven't seen anything from either that makes me think anything else

[borkjerfkin]

going back to 4007 I'm curious to see what alternative way to expected that to play out.
Also: What alignment do you think pooky is?

[borkjerfkin]

You're reading me purely off interactions?

What should I be doing instead?

[borkjerfkin]

Push pooky harder, if that was a push you felt more confient in, instead of letting it slide and hopping on elements

I think you are drastically overrating the level of confidence I have in my reads

[borkjerfkin]

Ok but that's a problem at this stage

you're telling me.

And how are you reading my push on you again?

i think town - i think i like the way 4006 reads, but you're gonna miss here

VOTE: pooky

[borkjerfkin]

I dunno. It just feel weird that your read's apparently entirely about syr and and my and I guess unwnd's and my interactions.

it's been very difficult to get at what you seem to want from me this game

[borkjerfkin]

Ok but if i'm going to miss i need you to show me where i'm wrong and to explain what would be a better vote, because otherwise i see little reason to change from my current course

I mean literally anything would be a better vote and I don't know how to effectively communicate that to you

I don't feel like pooky is attempting to solve the game; he has put some reads down but I don't see sufficient analysis coming about any of them and I doubt I'm going to find anything more substantial than "I don't like the attitude behind literally any vote he's made this game"

I don't know where else to look. I think noddy, you, ffery, vax are all reasonably town. DGB being a fourth PR claim is something I'm considering but if she is what she says she is I think she set up the ways to prove that from the getgo pretty well.

It could still be Prism; I'm not sure what the hell prism is doing at this point but at this point I'm probably psychologically incapable of getting into another argument w/ Prism without just wanting to not play this game anymore.

[borkjerfkin]

In this game, I've done my best not to give him emotional content to "sign off" on. And he's not pushed me very hard about my vaguely expressed concerns, especially after day 1.

I don't feel like you've even expressed a vague concern on me since day 1 up until this exact wagon

[borkjerfkin]

i have essentially no substantial experience w/ prism

[borkjerfkin]

do you think that my assumption that there's scum in the cohort is incorrect?

because cabd is dead or because some other reason?

[borkjerfkin]

i mean i think that in the living cohort there is probably scum. do you agree with that assessment y/n?

I thought you had a specific reason for asking me that that might lead into some discussion as to why my ffery or noddy reads are wrong.

[borkjerfkin]

settling

kind of a weird thing to say. how am I setting? I am voting my strongest read. Don't know why that changes regarding the number of scum left

[borkjerfkin]

like if you have an alternate explanation for how this game (esp. day2) have played out, i'm happy to hear it

What exactly are you trying to argue here? Even if I did understand why the gamestate makes them more likely to be scum, I don't feel like I need to have an alternative explanation even if I don't agree

[borkjerfkin]

i'm a vt.

I'm not really push-able since syr's flip

if you acknowledge that you're not really pushable since syr's flip (I agree), and my read on you is commensurate with that conclusion, I'm not really sure why you think I should be continuing to devote a lot of energy into sorting you.

if bork doesn't like that conclusion i want to know what scum were doing yesterday while watching elements happen (second point) and why he's basically coming down to 'i have some reason to townread like everyone except pooky and prism so i'll vote pooky' (first point)

Again, what are you looking for here? Me to name a team? Me to tell you exactly what the potential viability of each scum member given Elements flipping town and nobody really going out of their way to stop it?
Prism basically straight up said they thought Elements was town and dug in their heels and adopted the "I'm not going to do anything" persona, which I don't necessarily think is alignment indicative in itself but it certainly doesn't really preclude them from being scum here just markedly avoiding the wagon.

Pooky was on the record of being ok w/ any of me/vax/elements (3851) just how he got there isn't super easy to follow. 3534 actually seemed tonally town from the start but then he like did nothing with my responses. Maybe I put a slightly higher % chance of vax being scum if pooky flips scum just due to his PoE pool and the fact that of those three he never went after vax, but that's the sort of bridge I want to cross after a flip.

Anyway, I'm not really pushing either based on anything due to the Elements flip; I feel like it was pretty easy for anyone to hide in this D2.

[borkjerfkin]

my MIL is here till Monday; i have some thoughts but i don't really have time to articulate fully until then

[borkjerfkin]

catching up now

I'm a bulletproof and will leave my modifiers ambiguous.

i really don't like the fact that you took the time to crumb something unrelated to your apparent real role, especially considering you know that the only way to verify you is a role that gets identical results on both what you claimed and what you crumbed and kinda fits in this "killstop madness" theme we have going on.

what was the motivation for that? scum goes back at night to ctrl + f for the word "watch" and decides you have to die?

[borkjerfkin]

at the risk of being offensive, he might really just be that obtuse.

just by the by you're making it really, really hard to remain civil and i kinda feel like you've been taking shots at my reading comprehension and general intelligence all game and it's getting really fucking old

[borkjerfkin]

I read the bork ISO. They're not powertown at all but I see a few reasons to think he's not scum and the few to scum read him as likely stylistic. I can't really give backlinks since I'm on my phone laying down, I might later.

I'm skeptical of the early interactions with Syr but the interactions with unwnd were great. I'm on my phone and can't easily link but unwnd consciously tagged on to bork's characterization of me, and bork went out of his way to quote unwnd two/three times about me saying "deja vu", "are you me", etc.

All of bork's reads are plausible and progress well. The only questionable one for me is +town. He has a great post later on about Syr's facade beginning to crack but reverts to not wanting to vote the slot. Given that he townread Syr around this, this seems consistent to me.

I really didn't like bork's early game, and I don't like how bork holds off comments on entire slots (ex. With Ben/me Day) for extended periods but I can get over it. Both are likely stylistic.

His entrance into Day 2 as going aggressive on Pooky was fine, even if the back off was awkward this was explainable., but his Day 2 positioning around Ben/DGB were also stellar, consistent, and very plausible as town. I don't really have the same issues with his eventual vote on Elements.

I need a more specific reasons to vote the slot.

and yeah literally have no fucking idea what your angle is at this point. you've kinda soft-wanted-me-dead all game and to come back to "i need more concrete reasons" is incredibly jarring for me

[borkjerfkin]

it's kinda the opposite of how i feel about skitter who went from "town?" to "i don't hate this vote" to "i guess i'm just parking here forever" in the span of not very much

[borkjerfkin]

bork's interactions with me in that game are classic examples of how he develops/developed his reads on me. His read in this game never reached the point of being fully solid until I outed that I was a mason. The game was bastard. My mason buddy was being used like a puppet to perform the kills the SK wanted. The SK was the bastard part of the game. MafiaSSK had signed up for the game but didn't appear on the player list. Town eliminated all the groupscum by day 4, but lost the game to Mafiassk-Slenderman.

I think you are leaning on my exhibiting residual paranoia of you as something that is necessarily part of my towngame and you have decided that the absence of that is my scumgame and I feel like after illicit that should be demonstrably not true.

Like I hit very obvious "paranoia" notes that game, because as I stated, I was spending a ton of energy trying to fool you. Like I think the second to last paragraph in the post I'm quoting from is your confbiasing away the differences between this game and that one.

[borkjerfkin]

If you would prefer that I vote you over doubting your ability to understand me, I can do that instead

only scum ever says this non-analysis crap

VOTE: prism

[borkjerfkin]

I have repeatedly affirmed that you can be glaringly wrong and without being whatever insult you can imagine.

lots of people are "glaringly wrong" all the time. it is the fundamental basis of getting miselimed.

you've felt the need to continually go past that because you know i'll react to it

[borkjerfkin]

you're not even trying to pretend you legitimately think i'm scum lol

just sling ad-hom at me at this point i guess is the play

[borkjerfkin]

besides the person who's trying to bully me out of the game (I'm trying to push past it) can someone else please engage w/ me because honestly i don't know what to fucking do here other than just not post

[borkjerfkin]

then i don't understand the thesis behind the large post i quoted out of

[borkjerfkin]

I have been called the most toxic player in the game who should be eliminated regardless of alignment.

I have been called not worth conversing with

. I have had you all caps at me and affirm repeatedly how infuriating it is to play with me

you know just one more thing here: I haven't assaulted your character at any point. I've expressed frustration at your actions but i would never, ever, fucking say the bolded to you and I would appreciate you not looping me in with such sentiments.

If you feel differently you have my unconditional apology

[borkjerfkin]

bofk if i'm wrong i would like to see how so that we don't mislim you :/

you're wrong, i think prism is scum, and this isn't a springboard into productive conversation in and of itself so i'm just going to do my thing

[borkjerfkin]

It's how town-you sorts me. Or sorted me in the before-times.

This isn't particularly helpful

[borkjerfkin]

I mean, I'm confused by you this game. Scum-you did a great job of jumping on stuff in Illicit. The part that kept jangling a little was what seemed to cause you to back off again.

what are you confused about in particular that is making you think i'm more likely to be scum

[borkjerfkin]

i do understand your frustration r.e. prism's attitutde towards you, but i don't think he's just ad-homming you - he actually just had a massive post like yesterday saying he disagreed with my scumread on you ...

and look how quickly Prism was able to just toss that out the airlock because they are tired of my shit

[borkjerfkin]

my biggest hypothesis is so they could claim conscientious objection when i flip town (i agree w/ you that I don't think anyone would've found it awkward for prism to just hop on me w/ literally no justification in the moment) but honestly now the better explanation tomorrow post townflip will be that prism just hated my face and and to get rid of me to continue on (thor!scum literally used this exact argument against me a long time ago)

re: @skitter

[borkjerfkin]

ok but if he really wanted to mislim town!you why bother going through that in the first place?

i mean shit flip this around; i clearly saw the post i quoted where Prism decides to be charitable, why do i rock that fucking boat either (considering i know that empirically every time i do we get into it)

[borkjerfkin]

Wjy can't scum be fferyllt or Vax?

not saying they can't be?
but not what my reads have been

[borkjerfkin]

I'm rethinking this elements fade. I don't like how part of the reasoning behind it is being pushed forth.... Vax/Elements cant be scum together. I know im town in this equation, and what if elements is too? It's just an easy push for scum.

Edit, well now that I typed that out, if it's so easy why isn't it happening? But there can only be at the most 2 more scum? That's not a lot of pushing power, but maybe they are staying away? ARRRRGH

can you explain why this post is extremely townie bork?

tonal:
I think the last sentence in the first paragraph feels like a note of town-paranoia
I think the latter paragraph is a non-performative bout of double-paranoia that i am not reading as planned out

[borkjerfkin]

bork I want to discuss the paranoia thing some more. later tonight?

i'm around

[borkjerfkin]

like i don't want prism to hide 4344 in all the other stuff: that very clearly reads to me as a tactical angle to get me out of the game seeing where i came out against this pseudo-olive branch that game out late and doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with what i flip

[borkjerfkin]

to me it's more compelling to ask why he backed off yesterday

which i also did and got 4344

[borkjerfkin]

to me it's more compelling to ask why he backed off yesterday

which i also did and got 4344

you didn't ask that tho ... you just entered the thread/the convo with him kinda aggro and he responded that way too

you're right, i absolutely did do that (and i'll admit a lot of that was fueled by my reacting to 4309 and I don't know what to tell you; I lot of what I read from Prism about me initially read to me like "maybe it is town but in order to townread here you need to assume that the braining isn't so good"; I realize communication is a two-way street and maybe I need to not react in the moment as so that my tone won't be as overly aggressive; even so, i still think my tone was sufficiently interrogative not to immediately get that sequence that i got

p-edit: @Prism: regardless as to what you flip i have no ill will to you

[borkjerfkin]

I probably would have deserved it had I actually lost it.

no, you wouldn't have.

[borkjerfkin]

It's how town-you sorts me. Or sorted me in the before-times.

This isn't particularly helpful

Were you paranoid about me in Mafia on the Air? In Forest Fire?

at times, yes. at other times i've been "i'm going to take this read to my grave"

[borkjerfkin]

Gg all. Thanks for gettin it across the finish line <3

[borkjerfkin]

Was no avenue for scum controlling the night game. Had to hope town did certain things and yes, scum could influence bad narratives in the day phase about balance and mod wifom, but i dont think that a good setup makes.

Dgb was basically our PR since it soft cleared the last scum if used on them. that should be our job.

Agree that this is 100% on the review group and not the mod.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah there was some happy medium there for sure.

Your current setup plus a rolecop is probably worse for us because dgb guilties it.

[borkjerfkin]

Am really surprised they were ok w full jailkeeper plus full roleblocker. That is so so swingy

[borkjerfkin]

Regarding modpizza, evidently the site meta is to allow people to replace alts in the middle of games, which is something I disagree with, but in the future games I will allow it. So my apologies to modpizza. Apparently I asked the wrong mod regarding what I should do (not implosion) so my mistake with that as well.

You handled this fine. You made a ruling, said to drop it in the thread.

Did not drop it in the thread

Those were the consequences.

[borkjerfkin]

This game was designed to be solved by dayplay in scumhunting for the town and the scum manipulating the town, not by nightplay (via the town solving with its power roles, and scum preventing this with their own). I stand by it being balanced--maybe slightly frustrating for the scum to deal with the heavy kill-denial, but balanced, and explicitly a game where if scum's nightkills didn't fail multiple times, scum could not be caught randomly via a surprise PR outing them as confscum and it'd be difficult to POE the game down. (Unless they fakeclaimed and DGB checked them, obv.)

cool let's just not have PRs then

you deliberately jerked town around and gave scum nothing to interfere with them with, just their own interference and not realizing that's what it was

like this is obviously nonsense, if you really want what you say you want just give scum an NK only on odd nights or some crap

[borkjerfkin]

The town had five power roles, but aside from the fairly-well-protected friendly neighbor, the town had no conftowns. Any of the town's roles could've been scum roles, and DGB's elimination was proof enough of that.

who gives a fuck? it's entirely in town's hands and that's the whole point

it should be worth noting that everyone on both sides hated this

maybe head back with that info

[borkjerfkin]

like what was dgb here other than to jerk everyone the fuck around

look at prism's comments in the dead pt who puts it more eloquenrtly than i am

[borkjerfkin]

-the scum's only night power is somewhat limited due to the town PRs

what are you even fucking talking about in this post? what power? lol

[borkjerfkin]

I don't want to discuss this further.

i want to discuss that you're awesome, that's all

[borkjerfkin]

lol

[borkjerfkin]

@mastina: basically don't feel like you're even arguing in good faith here, just trying to engage on letter of the law and commitment to balance; i can engage isis separately, thanks

[borkjerfkin]

The presence of town power roles makes this inevitable--there will never be a setup where town have power roles where scum have unlimited control during the night, unless the scum have perfect counters to every scum role--which is inherently bad design and hugely scumsided.

just gonna say this is the kind of stuff prism called me scum for this game: a lot of goalpost moving to make my initial objection seem unreasonable with all these qualifiers like "unlimited" and "perfect"

[borkjerfkin]

appreciate the engagement here and you've brought up a lot of good points. The informed thing sounds interesting and I think opens up some counterplay options.

The denunciation of strongman here kind of sounds like an indictment of strongmen in general - remember that shows up as a PR to the vanilla cop and that changes a lot, imo. Early flipping strongman lends credence to the existence of a town vanilla cop too.

[borkjerfkin]

but the nature of the setup is that stopping a kill doesn't give town overly much info, so that's not really an argument for it not being balanced.

i think two town roleblocking roles is just enormously swingy too if they block well and iirc correctly is why 8matrix got replaced w/ matrix6 before it could get adopted as a newbie setup (and that one DID have a strongman).

[borkjerfkin]

granted those are semi-opens and that's probably a much different conversation.