TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[RCEnigma]

I'll gauge the room, I'm 5-ish pages into my catch-up. Do any of you terribly mind catching up by response to significant (imo) posts or just most of my thoughts summarized in a block?

[RCEnigma]

Probably, through 7 pages my shortlist poe is datisi/Deasveil/Reck

[RCEnigma]

Actually looking through the last VC that doesn't hold up. I don't know the game state page 20+ but it's probable there are at most 2 scum on my slots wagon. That's mostly by virtue of not yet being hammered.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah I'll do summary over stream of consciousness, I'll have to give it some thought.

[RCEnigma]

My slot hasn't posted prior to my rep in so I'm assuming you mean unreadable, but treating as scum.

[RCEnigma]

The early pressure on adorable is both A.) Easily read as a gauge on pushable slots (read as elimmable) and B.) An easy way to look busy early.

DV what were you looking for when you questioned adorables vote initially? Pressuring them into thinking they NEED a solid reason to throw down an rvs vote looked very strong armish.

[RCEnigma]

I would have thought that one of the most striking things from a reads perspective would have been my push of you, yet midwaybear has no opinion on it.

This feels like panic asking a team-mate to help fake reads to look town.

Are you and midway more familiar than you/adorable are?

Also were you aware that hectic was the one that prodded for reads from their team initially?

[RCEnigma]

Oh, well damn I can't beat that logic.

[RCEnigma]

bulge townie


adorable in 56 you said the vote wasn't based on anything, but in 58 you said it was because of how augustus gave a fast town read. that's what people are getting on your case about. can you address this?

If you expanded on this later just point me to the post but at the time of this post what pinged town for you coming from bulge?

I don't disagree with the read.

[RCEnigma]

I should be grouping these better but I don't think I can help it tbh.

Do we know if mafia is informed of just the roles themselves or possible modifiers as well?

[RCEnigma]

I haven't caught up to that post yet but I'll skim it in a minute.

Is the reinforcement from me pushing on your reasoning?

I can see that sort of? Why would a partner be that interested in defending an rvs push though? It seems like a weak gotchya test.

[RCEnigma]

Sirius9121 (0)

Augautus Caesar (0)
Aristophanes (0)

Datisi (0)
Summer Nights (0)

Creature (0)

xofelf (0)
DeasVail (0)
The Bulge (0)

Adorable (0)
petapan (0)

xRECKONERx (0)
beeboy (0)

Creature you're triggering me.

[RCEnigma]

Not gonna lie it's rough forcing myself to put out content if I'm the defacto elim and the reads won't be heard much next day phase anyway.

I'll say that both the lack of counter wagon and resistance to this elim is indicative of a scum approved elim. That said I kind of believe peta believes their argument, so hunting scum on wagon would have him at the end of the poe as most likely wrong!town in the bunch.

I'll go through some reads by iso. I'm kind of having an issue with getting around adorable interactions though, it's kind of forcing a bias. I think it really comes down to interactions outside of that just being more like side orders and the content around adorable being the meat.

Strong town lamb impression on adorable overall though.

[RCEnigma]

Sirius -

Apparently I'm getting limmed! exciting!

Sticks out as townie in iso but in context is baseless. So maybe just a post to antagonize Datisi as the slot most of their focus has been on early game.

The bravado is a big difference from this post

I'm easily the worst

player here

so they're trying

to make a wagon on me

NO U

----

very simple half read list:

artistic boi: very stressed as scum. more prone to theatre. so far so quiet. +town
pink fluff: giant sheep? 128 was some extent to a read BUT only mentions dats/hect/xof/ari/creature? to some extent is always sheeping hect/summer? +scum
bulge boi: really asking other ppl many questions but no... readlists themselves?
heccticc: uh... assuming they are starrling seems very different from starrling from 2175? many reads which im not like 100% sure is a good thing due to town mafia

Adding scum points to adorable for too specific reads and hectic for too many reads is kind of... Idk, Goldilocks I guess but I'd expect scum to be a little more selective about their reasoning when scumreading. Especially if they're up against slots they are familiar with (I'm assuming Datisi and to some degree hectic as well)

I've only really seen Sirius teamreads on Datisi/reck/hectic. Doubtful they just throw reads on partners and ignore everyone else without pressure in those directions. Also consistent with sorting via familiarity first. I'm calling it town indicative.

744 is Sirius' strongest bit of content but I want to engage Sirius on it after these isos so I'll be ommiting it here.

Prob-town slot

[RCEnigma]

@rce, i'm kinda confused by a part of 760. you don't think sirius would be giving reads "just ... on partners". are you doing preflip, with the same poe that you had when you were on page 7? (i mean, i'm assuming you are, i guess this is more a "did your reads really not develop at all from page 7, and why did you have them in the first place?")

The two are unrelated, more like if sirius flipped scum the likelihood that the subset of (Datisi, reck, hectic) mentioned slots is significantly lower. I doubt that changes going through the rest of the isos but it's something I'm keeping an eye on when I get to these slots.

I got caught up dealing with the IRS but xofelf is my next iso short and sweet.

[RCEnigma]

Probably, through 7 pages my shortlist poe is datisi/Deasveil/Reck

That didn't answer your other question.

The push on adorable from deas felt like they were pressuring adorable into making their rvs mean something and if it didn't it was scummy. Intimidation tactics basically. That pressure was compounded by your slot and recks slot piling on.

The two thoughts just reading through were:
1.) Coordinated shading (mostly because adorable looked like a vulnerable slot after Deas' line of questioning tripping them up)
B.) An opportunity to make the adorable slot a viable elim if nothing else opened itself up.

That would point to Datisi/reck as more likely scum than deas in that scenario but not by much if that makes sense.

Also I hadn't thought about it at the time but I don't really know how quickly the thread was progressing at the time so it might not have all been happening as fast as it played out in my head.

After looking at the VC on my rep in that didn't really line up, there is scum on my wagon and I'd bet multiple scum at that. Deas wasn't on my wagon when I made that statement, you weren't either so I figured I might have made a wrong assessment there.

[RCEnigma]

Xofelf -

I don't really have a lot to glean from this iso. More questions for xofelf than commentary on play or anything alignment leaning.

Gotta say the multiposting thing is going to kill me. It just feels like noise for the sake of noise and my eyes kinda glaze over as I read it. I also can't keep track of which is which, and who they're supposed to be underneath the alt, which is making that slot so much harder to read.(I also don't remember if it was just one of the public alts hyperposting or both, so that's a bad sign)

Initially got good vibes because I was reading the Hectic posts and Hectic/Summer's back and forth and kind of checked out and *I thought* Xofelf was commenting on this but I really just misread what they were talking about. This isn't anything valuable just laying a baseline I guess.

262 - An actual hot take and for a second I considered this could be a real possibility, less so for summer bringing adorable up a lot but for Adorable largely ignoring Summer flat out. They show up in Adorables town reads later (?) I think, which lends a little more to this take. I'm not sold on it but I do want to prod xofelf more here.

Sure, scum may be more likely to complain about it. But

Reck

complains about thread activity, gimmick posters, and spam posting regularly enough outside of games that it's just his opinion on the whole thing and shouldn't be the basis for a scumread on him. It's not enough on its own. That's all I'm saying. Think about the specific person not just the alignment.

Ok but what is your read on Reck independent of his complaints?

608 - I'm going through this iso and kind of just nodding along with Hectics questioning. I guess what I would add on here is, do you believe summer would be more willing to coach adorable in thread when they could get more benefit from pt discussion?
Also in a hypothetical where adorable flips town how do you feel about summer defending adorable in that moment?

There isn't a lot of substance to the ari read but it's a gutread so that's fine I guess, or any of the reads given. But I do like the back and forth with Hectic and the willingness to concede that their premise was flawed regarding Summer instead of doubling down to fit their read.

I also hate this case on Datisi cuz I really like Datisi's posting and feel really good about him, he's one of my top townreads atm.

What changed here from your earlier null pings?

I guess that can wait for the in depth reads when that comes.
Overall as null as it gets, the adorable/summer take reads genuine and is the kind of paranoid line of thinking that I generally gravitate towards as town. Would love some real time with this slot though.

[RCEnigma]

@rce, i see, thanks. i'm a bit annoyed (?) that you keep calling me scum for that one thing when there's nothing else in your read there (as far as i can tell?) but i don't think it's ai. has your team weighed in on this game in any way?

@Datisi: When you take ages to write a post, but people wouldn't be able to tell, do you ever admit to it, and as town, scum, or both?

i've truthfully admitted/mentioned it as both alignments. though it's definitely not an ~original~ thought for scum!me to do, as scum i do it because i know town!me would do it there.

I'm not though. I dropped that take and kind of walked it back after considering the game state.

Beeboy wasn't around to talk about the game, menalque did call hectic townglue but I don't have solid reads yet myself so I didn't ask for more.

[RCEnigma]

@RCE:

realize you're focusing on short ISOs but would appreciat it if you'd make some attempt to read the people who are voting you

Probably a better method.

[RCEnigma]

I'm not though. I dropped that take and kind of walked it back after considering the game state.

Beeboy wasn't around to talk about the game, menalque did call hectic townglue but I don't have solid reads yet myself so I didn't ask for more.

you dropped the team take, but yeah i guess, my bad.

mena didn't comment anything about my slot?

Just that he disagreed on the team I floated. I can ask.

[RCEnigma]

I'm not able to tell if you're all caught up or not and I see you said Datisi/Reck are more likely scum not by much. I was scum reading Datisi and Reck earlier and I later on started to think they are town and I have them on my town read. Since you said you bet there is multiple scum on your wagon who are you suspecting are the multiple scum on your wagon?

When I'm read up I'll have a better idea but as far as I know the rest of the votes are sheeping peta on his meta-check.

I don't know beeboy or his meta but I know peta is off base here. Beeboy just might not have had time for mafia.

[RCEnigma]

I am only going to be peripherally available for the next few hours but my decision to vote RCE and comfort with eliminating him was based on believing his posts upon replace-in to be much more indicative of scum than of town, particularly the topics that RCE was deciding to focus on felt much more like scum trying to create content than actually forming an understanding of the gamestate and developing reads (e.g. fixation on my push of Adorable). This is something that I’ll be able to go more in-depth on later when I have the time and am at my computer. And I’ll also be considering any posts RCE has made in the meantime and sharing my thoughts on them.

Well my position on rep in was produce readable content or eat a nonposters elim. The major content revolved around the adorable slot. Everything else was throwing out gutreads, fine in the moment but I wasn't there for it.

So not really wrong but a jaded base for a scumread given the circumstances.

[RCEnigma]

@Datisi, menalque has a dated read since he hasn't read for awhile but he liked you early for the adorable push and you two mindmelded on hectic/reck as tvt when it happened.to a lesser degree he liked the bulge push since he caught a scummy vibe but wolfdance redux makes him hesitate on it (I don't know if that means something).

[RCEnigma]

Starting one of my shifts but quick thought on peta (menalque hard trs) I agree. Peta's push on adorable was the kind of pressure that actually pulled information and had the kind of patience to work towards where adorable was coming from that's a lot harder to fake as scum and it happened with little benefit to peta. Mostly in terms of like standing, pocketability etc. I'll expand on it when I do peta's iso in the morning.

[RCEnigma]

i mean ill certainly give it a reevaluation later when i catch up, but the slot was doing nothing, then what little was done was underwhelming, not exactly screaming at me to move my vote elsewhere

but i also didnt process he was at e1 and id rather have time to catch up and all that so

UNVOTE

until i can plug back in

Well what about it was underwhelming or do you just disagree with the stances I'm making?

[RCEnigma]

Mostly DV was the first person around to interact with and answer some questions.

Peta had a whole different approach to adorable as a whole with thoughtful questioning that wasn't aimed at catching adorable out but getting them to better articulate the points they were making. It's much the same way I would approach a slot that could just be town drowning but if scum would probably make it obvious.

It took awhile to get there, I didn't really like the push initially but made sense the more I read. Peta had this moment that said yeah adorable is probably town based on the responses he pulled from poking adorable

DV kind of let up only after Peta decided he'd seen enough and I'd expect scum to kind of take that indicator and find a better elim to push for with the adorable pressure breaking down. You (Reck) doubled down without the backup of the original pushers which Indicates at least some(?) Kind of conviction in the read. I can't rule out Scum!Reck off of that but it's something at least.

Sirius/Xof were just low posters, being time strapped the idea was to get through the shorter isos first.

[RCEnigma]

Want to hear why exactly you think the lack of counterwagons is indicative of anything given the context, where there's an obvious slot that's playing to their scummeta and not defending themselves at all, and if scum, means that scum can in no way counterwagon it without looking very scummy down the line for it, and doing so would be difficult in the first place.

Well they hadn't played at all. So not only is it a safe scumplay but, it stalls out actual scumhunting. Beeboy was the safe lynch because he's not really playing so losing them doesn't really matter and there is still the possibility to flip scum right? That's objectively the correct Town play in the absence of anything concrete.

But on the other hand scum don't need a high profile day 1 flip, any town flip is a freebie even if it's not impactful right away plus they get a chance to flip a PR without any pushback.

Peta's vote, I believe he thinks this is beeboys meta. Like I said I've never heard of beeboy so I don't know, could be bs but seems to be corroborated to some degree. I know that's a wrong assessment but I can see how a town!peta gets there.

But I also don't believe that the strongest scumread all 5 other slots has is a game flake with no posts. Either, this town is just garbage or some of the "scumhunting" going on with slots on my wagon is for show. And I don't think you're all garbage.

[RCEnigma]

RCE's arguing there's multiple scum on his wagon from the perspective of him being town. I'm questioning him to see if that assessment is genuine, because I don't think it's a good one.

It's possible there is only 1 but I was drawing the idea of 2 from the lack of hammer or movement. Scum don't really want a rep in as it could lose them the elim but if they have the numbers to stick it then it's not *as* risky.

[RCEnigma]

Sirius/Xof were just low posters, being time strapped the idea was to get through the shorter isos first.

im not a 'low poster'

my posts are just low quality

I think you were just first in the player list.

[RCEnigma]

hey man we're at 2 days to deadline we need a claim

I'm a n1 vig

[RCEnigma]

I think just being claimed is -utility for town. Also, thoughts on the setup crumbing role probably isn't the way to go, results get leeway. I also didn't get an answer about the scum knowing modifiers question.

[RCEnigma]

I also didn't get an answer about the scum knowing modifiers question.

I mean, you were asking the players in the game who have access to the same set-up related information that you do.

It's a thought that crossed my mind when seeing the setup situation, I don't know if anyone posed a similar question to the mod or not before I repped in.

[RCEnigma]

Not gonna lie it's rough forcing myself to put out content if I'm the defacto elim and the reads won't be heard much next day phase anyway.

open question to the table: does a PR, specifically a n1 vig, ever say this line?

Ngl as a player I would be fine elimming through a n1 vig claim.

Not in this case but, ya know

[RCEnigma]

Which part? The unheard reads part of it? I've been in enough games to know town is still going to trust their own judgement over the reads of dead town. That's just how the game goes.

[RCEnigma]

Like I said I would elim through a claim like that if I'm on the outside of it. I've done worse to better looking claims.

[RCEnigma]

Like the last time I claimed vig I was elimmed day 1 and that was with FL being able to corroborate I was 100% a vig. Different kind of setup but still.

[RCEnigma]

I don't think it's that unlikely to be rbed or even have a scum doc/jk and thought about fake claiming at least the n1 part of my role but that likely gets me miselimmed anyway.

I don't think my elim is more informed than any other elim in the pl especially considering every other slot has been around since game start. But I'd also elim my slot through the claim so it's unfortunate.

[RCEnigma]

That doesn't have anything to do with me so, no defense I guess?

[RCEnigma]

Almost none Datisi. I though xofelfs theory was interesting. Would it make sense for scum!summer to hard defend town!adorable in that position? Yes probably though xofelf admitted it wasn't as extreme as they thought initially.

The summer/Datisi part of peta's case is partly meta based, that doesn't really away me. Datisi do you know how summer regards your town/ scum games? Is the paranoia warranted?

They haven't been around since I repped in so I don't have a decent read there..... But if they're the elim over me I'm not that against it.

[RCEnigma]

Think about it like this:

Let's say on average, each game has one 100% confirmable town role, whether that be a friendly neighbour or a vigilante.

A 1/13 that you roll it when you play a normal game of mafia

You have to believe that this confirmable town role just so happened to fall into the doomed slot that has close to no chance of surviving with no counterwagons

Now, are we just extremely lucky (or unlucky) that that role just so happened to fall into the hands of the slot everyone thought was scum and were okay with launching on day 1?

OR is it just scum claiming whatever they want to stay alive for a night? Just based on statistics alone, this is like 90% a scumslot. When you account for the actual reasons this slot is being wagoned, I'm very confident it's scum

A.) 50% of guessing is being 60% wrong

2.) I made up most of those numbers because they aren't relevant

[RCEnigma]

It's not an uncommon occurrence for a non playing slot to be run up. It's also not an uncommon occurrence for a non playing slot to roll a pr. Regardless of confirmability or not (since we don't know the setup).

Adding "but beeboy could only be scum" to back of both of those facts doesn't make it true or more accurate.

[RCEnigma]

I had a stroke at the end of that last sentence. I mean about the opinion that these events are a coincidence.

[RCEnigma]

I'm not super thrilled with my return to forum mafia as a whole. Repping into a dead on arrival slot isn't super fun either. The only coherent argument to defend against based on my play was deasvail's but it was basically, scum would rep in and do things that town would do so you're scum.

Super condensed but yeah, caught me red handed giving readable content.

[RCEnigma]

Defending myself against someone else's meta is not worth the fight or going to get me anywhere and I honestly don't think that's on me.