TM 2021: A normal roguelike

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Post Post #1350 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Post by DeasVail »

In post 1212, Augustus Caesar wrote:
In post 903, DeasVail wrote:UNVOTE:
In post 910, petapan wrote:okay, was keeping this read somewhere in the back pocket but i hashed this one out with the hivemind a little bit earlier today so i'm more comfortable outing it

the feeling is that summer nights came into the game eagerly fluffing and RPing with hectic to, like, find footing but just hasn't done much after. she has outed a few townreads but they feel very shallow in their reasoning and static in their movement, i don't get a sense they're being updated and re-evaluated as the thread moves as much. she's lacking in any insight. like saying she could "go for are" because he hasn't "done too much" is not good reasoning, but also a little soft, tentative, like it's reaching out to explore whether it's an acceptable push. also, the paranoia toward datisi in just feels fake, it doesn't feel truly as much like she's really fearful of being fooled by datisi again as much as she's
acting
paranoid of him to seem town and maybe pocket him a little bit. i don't know hw to explain that in the sense that she talks about being afraid of him in a fairly over the top way but doesn't really question him or critically examine what he's saying.

there's also the thing where she makes gestures toward generating content from beeboy's replacement in and but she has not really engaged with RCE at all (and has instead fallen into prod range)

i held back in the feeling she mught just be starting slow and she'd be more readable as the game went on but given the claim i want to vote here

VOTE: summer nights
In post 917, DeasVail wrote:People I don't want to elim today:

Sirius, Aristophanes, Creature, xofelf, Adorable, xRECKONERx, RCEnigma (there's no real point in an elimination here right now to be honest, regardless of read on the slot)

The rest are potential options in my mind.

Summer Nights is the slot that I feel most indifferent about right now. Pushing there is kind of low value because she's not even really here, but it also feels like the most comfortable place for a vote. And peta voting there is eerie because it was the first thought in my mind when I unvoted as well and a lot of the reasons he has put forward are similar to what I have been thinking.

VOTE: Summer Nights
there's also this ordering
I cant really say anything here except that it was a very big coincidence (or maybe not a coincidence!) that peta was also thinking summer nights. It was a bit awkward because I had actually started typing up the post that morning, got distracted for a couple of hours and then adapted my post after seeing all the other posts (and admittedly was worried that people would think it opportunistic of me to vote summer after peta did).

I don’t really expect you to believe this but it’s honestly what happened and it was quite confidence-boosting to me that we came to the same conclusion independently
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Post Post #1351 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:17 pm

Post by DeasVail »

In post 1222, Augustus Caesar wrote:Yeah, so Dues. I wanna hear why:

RCE's claim was enough for you to unvote
Why you didn't bother to discuss the claim at the time
Why you didn't bother to argue with me on killing RCE, or give opposition to it in your last post of the day
Why you said you were fine with a RCE elim if you unvoted
Just saw this! I feel like I’ve answered but let me know if there’s anything you’re clear on.

I think you’re even more likely town from all this though, so if we could get through this that would be cool!
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Post Post #1352 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:31 pm

Post by DeasVail »

In post 1242, xRECKONERx wrote:The xof wagon still feels mmmmmm bad. So does DV.

Might I entice you all on some juicy ARISTOPHANES?
Might some of you answer my questions re: Summer Nights?
I posted why I think Ari is town on Day 1, and given that he hasn’t posted much at all since then, I think it remains relevant.
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Post Post #1353 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:35 pm

Post by DeasVail »

Bulge, how much is your read of me influenced by the recent pressure on me?
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Post Post #1354 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:40 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

okay

reread and i wish i hadn't, the hectic/ydrasse back and forth made me want to kill myself
i don't think any of it's serious, or maybe it is, but they can i guess restate things in a way that isn't stupid if they want ppl to pay attention
In post 1300, The Bulge wrote:
Spoiler: posts that inspired thought
reck
-
like the hop onto adorable, feels natural

xofelf
-
complaining about gimmick accounts to find content
different for reck due to his meta + venting about TM rules

ari
-
originally misinterpreted this post. this is fine, not dodgey

hectic
-
feels like hopkirk. hard to fake these team inputs

*Probably at least 2? scum sharing team input

sirius
-
probably real team thoughts

deasvail
-
why is that invalid?

datisi
-
maybe calling off discussion is actually townie

adorable
-
i like this reaction to deasvail questioning her team reads

--PAGE TEN--

datisi
-
effort to be understood by adorable

reck
-
backpedaling the self-meta before it's called?

xofelf
-
doesn't say anything bad or scummy about adorable's content, lots of words to critique playstyle

datisi
-
town mindset to catch this wagon/adorable dodging questions

deasvail
-
post says nothing, leaves all doors open

ari
-
makes the question about reck when i'm clearly prodding about ari

reck
-
partnery

summer
-
kinda noncommittal readslist

*Creature/dv/summer setting up swing from beeboy to sirius? hectic calls out in

ari
-
weird read on hectic, why would scum just hide behind alts and not be helpful
pointless question to dv ("why not question literally anything else instead?")
extremely weak associatives with me/datisi

ari
-
repeat of 287

ari
-
soft defense of beeboy ignores his meta

deasvail
-
not a big fan of straight answering such a weird question. ari partner?

ari
-
or appealing to dv?

reck
-
these agarthoughts are showy

summer
-
awkward hop off sirius/onto beeboy

sirius
-
big town vibes

reck
-
jumped the gun on this point, slow roll from reck vs adorable is strange

datisi
-
too self conscious

ari
-
weird awkward repeat of 374, shades xofelf

summer
-
WHO KILLED PETA?

--PAGE TWENTY--

creature
-
beeboy partnery

hectic
-
willing to double back on reason when peta engaged, towny

datisi
-
too self conscious while planting seeds of a beeboy defense

datisi
-
not a scum explanation

reck
-
sets up a move back onto adorable
shades me for asking him selfmeta question, but why now and not then?

xofelf
-
unnecessary defense of reck

xofelf
-
mentions ari's content without any specifics, weirdly holistic read but not being presented as so

ari
-
rushed, and "nice try tho" in same post as unvoting reck is weird

deasvail
-
good lines of questioning, really trying to squeeze content out of creature

ari
(bulge) -
indirect, nervous, too many words (why not just "I would shoot you")

deasvail
-
would scum say that about town? ("i have a feeling my read will be town")

datisi
- ,,
good response to a bad case

xofelf
-
first time bringing up team input, odd timing re:my datisi post

creature
-
convenient

--PAGE THIRTY--

deasvail
-
not pressuring RCE as a partner

creature
-
distancey

creature
-
what? dv feels me

*LOOK AT RCE ISOs, ONE OR MORE DON'T BELONG*

summer
-
team input feels somewhat faked

reck
-
halfassed unvote (bus?) after being called by peta

datisi
-
not partnery

creature
-
disagree with assessment of deasvail

creature
-
is this all in defense of RCE?

datisi
-
partner never digs for a reason to not believe a claim like this

petapan
-
inclined to trust this read

hectic
-
gets no points for not believing the claim

rce
-
no stance against summer, could be unwilling to bus lurking partner when he is doomed d2 either way

summer
-
too hypothetical

creature
-
why a liability and not just scum?

--PAGE FORTY--

summer
-
like this reaction, urgency in ensuing posts feels real

ari
-
no stance at all on RCE claim, defers to his team

sirius
-
good catch re:finding a better fakeclaim, not scum

summer
-
genuinely wants to be able to read sirius properly

xofelf
-
bad hammer, defers stance to teammates like ari did

hectic
-
odd pivot, what was hectic thinking overnight?

datisi
-
good response

hectic
-
I had a similar thought re:Datisi+Reck

xofelf
-
good post, last line especially feels townie

xofelf
-
pretty good take on my play, feels genuine

reck
-
is this trying to cast doubt on the possibility of svs wagons?

ari
-
not a fan of the first two sentences

datisi
-
too weak a push for scum to go there


leaves me feeling something like

hectic
datisi
adorable
sirius
summer

deasvail
xofelf

reck
creature
ari


additional notes for now:
-reck vs ari could very easily be theatre, neither is very sticky about it
-deasvail has done some things that seem extremely unlikely for scum to have done (most notably his pressure of rce, although Datisi is the least likely beeboy partner imo), but I know he is a very skilled player
-if deasvail is scum then I think that heavily points to creature as a partner
-summer is sketchy/null overall to me, but her reaction to being counterwagoned was super town, although less so if creature scum.
-xofelf reads as scummy to me but recent posting is much better, and their stance on my slot feels so real I can't shake it.
ok dope, help me bus ari please, i'm going for the bussing speed run this game
In post 1313, Creature wrote:
In post 1242, xRECKONERx wrote:The xof wagon still feels mmmmmm bad. So does DV.
Image
i'm being pocketed? by who? good meme btw
In post 1342, Ydrasse wrote:
In post 1339, xRECKONERx wrote:idk why there's 5 pages of ydrasse and hectic flirting at each other with what looks like a bulge readlist thrown in but im not reading it right now

i hope somewhere in there someone (see: hectic, or whoever else) can explain why AtE is townie
Why were you treating the lives of people this game like little musical chairs where we can kill willy nilly

and i said what i said these last 5 pages......
what the fuck does this mean

ydrasse has turned into exactly the type of poster i hate playing games with, full stop, if she gets to l-1 i'm instantly hammering it so let this be a fair warning. turning the game into a spamfest is inherently anti-town.
In post 1344, Augustus Caesar wrote:
In post 1339, xRECKONERx wrote:can explain why AtE is townie
it's townie or NAI depending on what made the player mad
why did you not like the Deas wagon earlier?

Image
okay can you explain what AtE would look like in Ydrasse/Summer's case if they were scum being wagoned yesterday? vs if they were town? how come AtE and emotional play is townie or NAI, yet early on in this very game, you read me as scum for doing exactly that?

re: DV, I still have a town read on DV from earlier and how much we were mind melding.
your post isn't terribly convincing to me, DV was a big push behind throwind shade at RCE. the unvote doesn't look tactical, how stupid would scum have to be to be the first one to unvote their buddy off a shitty n1 vig claim? i know i keep going back to the too scummy to be scum well here but my god.

also RCE flipped Mafia Informed..so unless the scumteam dont already know RCE's info from pregame chat, which would be the FIRST THING any Informed should do, RCE was effectively a vanilla goon at that point. another day doesn't really buy scum anything out of that slot, idk if i buy that scum were working hard to get RCE another day of life?

the most compelling thing you point out is that DV doesn't try to talk you down that RCE doesn't need another night, which could mean scum letting town make bad suggestions and drive things. but i also think "I did something pro-scum and you didn't stop me" is a pretty bad argument from the word go
In post 1352, DeasVail wrote:
In post 1242, xRECKONERx wrote:The xof wagon still feels mmmmmm bad. So does DV.

Might I entice you all on some juicy ARISTOPHANES?
Might some of you answer my questions re: Summer Nights?
I posted why I think Ari is town on Day 1, and given that he hasn’t posted much at all since then, I think it remains relevant.
I don't know that I need to do this, but here's a full summary of Ari's actions this game

- RVS bullshit [feat. weak feigned serious push when: peta votes sirius]
- votes me for feeling "off" after Hectic invites him onto my wagon
- white knights Adorable while completely dodging me asking him to explain why i'm "off"
- DISAPPEARS FOR A LONG BIT
- comes back to back off of me and continue to defend Adorable while still not calling anyone suspicious or scummy
- doubles back down on defending Adorable to come all the way back around to just tunneling on me again
- peppers his next "catch up" with hearts and smiley faces and jokes and memes but doesn't actually deliver game relevant content
- defended beeboy from the meta push on him in 460 ("well xof hasn't been here either!")
- when beeboy pipes back in, Ari is a fan of giving him time to catch up and produce content
- unvotes me while still calling me scum and saying he's gonna focus on other things but spends the majority of his post still shading me?
- very supportive of RCE catching up and giving thoughts. idk. just read his posts around beeboy/RCE, they're "off" to use ari's own word
- uses teammates (anonymous teammate, not a named one, mind you) as a reason to setup a jump back onto RCE.
- NEVER votes back on RCE, never does anything about the wagon actually. shows up d2 to be like "well i guess i shoulda listened huh" and that's IT

I implore you to ISO ari. it's VERY short because there's almost nothing there. what is there is i would easily say half joking cutesy posts that don't add anything to the gamestate or put himself at risk in any way. ari has spent the game defending people or calling people town. outside of his tunneling on me, he hasn't pushed any scumreads.

actually, it's funny. there's this little neat concept called projection and whoopsie daisy what do we have here?
In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:snip

I know I'm questioned later on my wording in response to my response to this response, but what I meant by
Reck using this to tunnel them
, as I believe I put it, is that if
Reck sticks to the rage or commentary about this slot and thefact that Alts shouldn't be in this game and gimmicks are dumb rather than providing content I think that is scum indicative and a way to look busy without actually contributing
. I haven't read what they've said after that response but I'm hoping they're *doing things* because otherwise this could indicate scum!Reck. I hope that makes things clearer here.

snip
In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:snip

Lol I can hear the Clap Emotes and they aren't even here XD
Uh,
this is kind of the hyperfocusing on one thing that I was worried about with Reck WRT Hectic
. I think he's found a new target and honestly this is a pretty big red flag imo. FoS on you my friend.

snip

Oh look, Reck is still sticking on this after it's been resolved. Just like I figured they would.


Fuckit
VOTE: Reck

That was short lived.

End of pg 10.
We're getting there. Sorry everyone (:

ARISTOPHANES IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT THING THIS WHOLE GAME THAT HE PROJECTED ONTO ME DOING

first ari said i was tunneling/focusing on hectic by focusing on one thing the whole game so i wouldn't have to get involved elsewhere

then ari said i was doing the same thing with adorable

but ACTUALLY ari is the one that has been doing it all game. he has leaned on his scumread on ME in order to avoid doing useful shit elsewhere. like, he literally projected onto me his own guilty subconscious/anxiety lmfao. couple that with gross positioning around the RCE/beeboy wagon and i fail to see how more people aren't chomping at the bit for ari to die.
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Post Post #1355 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:51 am

Post by The Bulge »

In post 1353, DeasVail wrote:Bulge, how much is your read of me influenced by the recent pressure on me?
not at all. my read of you is the kind of nullread that's like "town, or scum playing exactly how they should be". nothing that makes me go "scum would never do that!" but rather "weak scum could never pull that off", jafeel?
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Post Post #1356 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:55 am

Post by The Bulge »

that said

I've taken a closer look, Hectic, and some of your points imo don't hold water because of this
In post 902, petapan wrote:UNVOTE:

ok 0 reason to ever vote out that role

smells of buying time but is 100% provable so he gets a chance to prove it

have thoughts on where i want to go but need time to compose them
In post 903, DeasVail wrote:UNVOTE:
i think it would be weird and unnatural for dv to get into a full explanation of why to keep rce alive when peta is here doing exactly that. I see what you're saying is missing if you're looking at his iso, but with the context of the thread, I don't think the onus was on dv at the time to explain his unvote.
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Post Post #1357 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:02 am

Post by The Bulge »

reck, out of curiosity, did you see/make note of ari's before I pointed it out?
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Post Post #1358 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:04 am

Post by Datisi »

VOTE: ari

don't ask because i don't have an answer.

i will be Actually Properly reading this in like. an hour tops. someone yell at me if i don't. i don't wanna go properly read the vomitposting that was whatever the fuck was that ydrasse/hectic interaction but i have to. then i may form some coherent thoughts.
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Post Post #1359 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:09 am

Post by The Bulge »

oh hey I found the vc

now I kinda just want to wait for spot #4 :nerd:
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Post Post #1360 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:52 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1357, The Bulge wrote:reck, out of curiosity, did you see/make note of ari's before I pointed it out?
nope i did not, i actually missed it when it happened at the time and only caught it on a reread
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Post Post #1361 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:12 am

Post by Augustus Caesar »

In post 1349, DeasVail wrote:I apologise if my thought process wasn’t clear at the time and I can understand why it would seem a bit strange, but I also think it’s a very strange arc to take as scum. PUSHING relentlessly on RCE as soon as he replaces in and then suddenly stopping after a claim that is only going to buy him a night max.
this is a good point but i'll have to see how likely RCE was to be launched without your hand in it
if you are scum, i believe you unvoted because you assumed it'd be the consensus opinion to give RCE a day and it wouldn't look bad since all the town would take the same position (including peta for example who hard pushed him)
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Post Post #1362 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:18 am

Post by Augustus Caesar »

hey Ydrasse are you around?
i think reck and datisi need us to interact more to form a better read on us
don't blame them
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Post Post #1363 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:18 am

Post by Augustus Caesar »

In post 1356, The Bulge wrote:that said

I've taken a closer look, Hectic, and some of your points imo don't hold water because of this
In post 902, petapan wrote:UNVOTE:

ok 0 reason to ever vote out that role

smells of buying time but is 100% provable so he gets a chance to prove it

have thoughts on where i want to go but need time to compose them
In post 903, DeasVail wrote:UNVOTE:
i think it would be weird and unnatural for dv to get into a full explanation of why to keep rce alive when peta is here doing exactly that. I see what you're saying is missing if you're looking at his iso, but with the context of the thread, I don't think the onus was on dv at the time to explain his unvote.
yeah, this is valid
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Post Post #1364 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:35 am

Post by Augustus Caesar »

In post 1349, DeasVail wrote:But the tricky part is that I REALLY thought RCE was scum. So am I going to try and stop him from being eliminated? No, because I was worried the whole time that I’d be stopping an elimination on scum and that’d be bad. (Before the claim I was almost as confident as I can get on RCE being scum)
alright, so i understand you're saying you really thought RCE was scum which is why you didn't want to argue against eliminating him regardless. but if you have a personal preference to give the claim a day, that means you think it's a more optimal route for town, right? and if so, why not give your input more into why you'd want to do that or talk to me about it at all? I find it odd that in your next post all you have to say on it is "I'm actually don't care if RCE gets elimmed" or something along those lines. why not talk more about what you think is better for your wincon?
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Post Post #1365 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:37 am

Post by Augustus Caesar »

Reck, I'm gonna respond to the AtE thing and look at your Ari case later
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Post Post #1366 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:43 am

Post by Datisi »

@hectic what is your read on ydrasse

page 51 is really making me not want to play mafia

page 52 is making me not enjoy my popcorn anymore
In post 1292, Augustus Caesar wrote:uh how do you fit in 6 warlords with yuumi
like we need Datisi-Azir and Reck-Jarvan for keeper they've been solid
i see this has my name in it, translate it into english

i don't actually Hate bulge anymore but i didn't read his catchup bc i need to click on 10 quadrillion links to read it
i saw my name was in green and i appreciate that

ok i'm reading it and i'm to the part where he linked my and now i lowkey want adorable again???

these popcorn taste vaguely like cardboard

did ydrasse ever elaborate on her read on me as she said she would?

ok i read the whole post i have nothing

ok i see by that hectic thnks ydrasse is town but didn't you agree w my analysis of her post on me?
In post 1323, Ydrasse wrote:literally my shackles are freed i can post without worrying about a silly little alt my thoughts are UNINHIBITED i can READ i can DO THINGS
sooo.... the explanation on the read of me coming when?

ok now that i can see fully on my laptop this is beautiful lol
In post 1354, xRECKONERx wrote:also RCE flipped Mafia Informed..so
unless the scumteam dont already know RCE's info from pregame chat
, which would be the FIRST THING any Informed should do, RCE was effectively a vanilla goon at that point. another day doesn't really buy scum anything out of that slot, idk if i buy that scum were working hard to get RCE another day of life?
what?

oh hey it's me saying i'll be reading oh lovely

ok there we go

i actually spent like 40 minutes on this

38 minutes too many
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Post Post #1367 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:52 am

Post by DeasVail »

In post 1364, Augustus Caesar wrote:
In post 1349, DeasVail wrote:But the tricky part is that I REALLY thought RCE was scum. So am I going to try and stop him from being eliminated? No, because I was worried the whole time that I’d be stopping an elimination on scum and that’d be bad. (Before the claim I was almost as confident as I can get on RCE being scum)
alright, so i understand you're saying you really thought RCE was scum which is why you didn't want to argue against eliminating him regardless. but if you have a personal preference to give the claim a day, that means you think it's a more optimal route for town, right? and if so, why not give your input more into why you'd want to do that or talk to me about it at all? I find it odd that in your next post all you have to say on it is "I'm actually don't care if RCE gets elimmed" or something along those lines. why not talk more about what you think is better for your wincon?
It got to the point where I actually didn’t care that much either way. Both options were valid in my mind. I thought eliminating RCE was a decent option because he was probably scum. I thought pursuing Summer Nights was a good idea because RCE was not going to last long if scum anyway, and tbh I think Summer/Ydrasse is still my top pick for scum but I’ll be going over my reads later today (including reevaluating Ari). I think in mafia you have to accept that not everything is going to go exactly your way all the time and sometimes it’s about picking your battles on the thing that really matter. Eliminating RCE vs not eliminating RCE was not one of those important things to me.
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Post Post #1368 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:59 am

Post by DeasVail »

Reck, I still need to read over Ari again but just talking theory here.

As im sure you know, projection is a phenomenon that occurs all the time and while it’s not the most adaptive mechanism I don’t know why it makes someone scum.
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Post Post #1369 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:07 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1366, Datisi wrote:
In post 1354, xRECKONERx wrote:also RCE flipped Mafia Informed..so
unless the scumteam dont already know RCE's info from pregame chat
, which would be the FIRST THING any Informed should do, RCE was effectively a vanilla goon at that point. another day doesn't really buy scum anything out of that slot, idk if i buy that scum were working hard to get RCE another day of life?
the only reason scum would absolutely need to keep RCE alive to find out his informed info is if they didn't already know it which seems unlikely
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Post Post #1370 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:10 am

Post by Datisi »

why does that seem unlikely?
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
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Post Post #1371 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:11 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1368, DeasVail wrote:Reck, I still need to read over Ari again but just talking theory here.

As im sure you know, projection is a phenomenon that occurs all the time and while it’s not the most adaptive mechanism I don’t know why it makes someone scum.
Sure, the thing is Ari was projecting onto me something I wasn't doing and said that made me scummy, when it's in fact what he's doing

I don't know why you want to divorce the theoretical concept of projection from its practical context in this specific case
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Post Post #1372 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:12 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1370, Datisi wrote:why does that seem unlikely?
why wouldn't the scum informed share the info immediately in thescum chat?
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Post Post #1373 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:12 am

Post by Creature »

Man, you all still underestimate the value a scum lynch can have regardless of their role.
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Post Post #1374 (ISO) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:14 am

Post by Creature »

Like, even if the other scum look good from the scum lynch, for every scum that looks good from the lynch, at least three town look better. So it's plausible scum would want to delay the first red flip as much as possible.
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