Open 94 - Trendy and Subversive C9(Over) before 672
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Jex has yet to post and you did something noteworthy.PT wrote:Hey why did you pick me and Jex?
2 votes are a serious wagon here, so I'm against throwing them around carelessly. Do you consider your vote on Penguin random, btw?Crazy wrote:I disagree. I actually think they're more effective in small games than in larger games.- Raging Rabbit
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Yup, "are you scum?" is clearly the question tajo didn't answer. The way Megatheory echoed Empking's vote on tajo for his lack of answer and then backed off when tajo explained how he answered the other question is very suspicious, makes me think MT didn't really think about which question wasn't answered in the first place and rather voted for tajo out of sheer desire to get someone lynched. In post 40 he says "at this point, you could be scum or town" which is completely redundant, very possibly scum who wants to make his pretended lack of special knowledge extra clear to everyone. Also his FOS on Crazy was uncalled for, again makes me think he's trying to throw suspicion around.
Vote Meagatheory.- Raging Rabbit
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Scum could prefer to avoid the WIFOM trap there, easier to ignore the question.Crazy wrote:I agree with farside here. It's really stupid to expect anyone to answer a question of "are you scum," since really, it doesn't take any special skill to say "No."
He wasn't at L-1, only the two of us were voting for him.Crazy wrote:RR put Megatheory at L-1. Did you want him to be lynched or did you not realize it was L-1?
Personally I think tajo's town (the unnecessary nurse claim pretty much confimrs him, assuming he isn't counterclaimed) and you just dittoed a case you didn't bother seriously contemplating to throw more pressure his way.MT wrote:So basically you think tajo and I are both scum and I pushed him to distance, correct?
Penguin's last post is saying a whole lot of nothing. We shouldn't be the ones to find things for you to comment on, the fact that you don't seem to really be looking for them yourself is pretty scummy.- Raging Rabbit
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I thought Tajo was voting Empking for some reason, my bad.
Empking's case on Farside is completely unconvincing, not sure if he's scum or misguided town at this point though. I get a stronger bad vibe from MG, whose "mistake" gives I believe is more likely to come from scum eager to throw a vote, and after his quick backtrack the sentence "at this point, you could be scum or town" is very scummy imo. Has also attacked Crazy twice for bad reasons.- Raging Rabbit
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She's explained a million times that she doesn't consider "are you scum?" worth answering, and while I think some amount of info can be gained from the various possible ways to treat this question, I can certainly see where she's coming from. The way you keep repeating "it's a lie!" ad infinitum is starting to look desperate.
I'm not voting Empking because his play strikes me as possibly bad town while MG's feels more scummy.- Raging Rabbit
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'Cause Megatheory's play seems more calculated , the manner in which he quickly backed away from tajo for example is imo indicative of scum afraid to be caught in the spotlight of a misguided wagon. Also his subtle nudges against Crazy for reasons that don't actually make any sense.
Empking, however, is so very pigheaded here I'm thinking he could easily be overstubborn town. It's a mistake for scum (as well as town) to push a bad case so hard, especially at this point when it's clear his attack is going nowhere, so neither group has anything to gain from pushing it on. His behavior, while definitely anti town, doesn't make me think him that much more likely to be scum.- Raging Rabbit
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Off course there's a possibilty you're town, never said I was sure of anything, just that you're my best suspect. No reason for you to play the martyr here.MT wrote:You're not even willing to consider the possibility that I'm town. If a townie makes the mistake I made, how are they supposed to correct it? Does continuing on with an obvious mistake sound like good town play to you?
Further, how should I have read populartajo? Should I have assumed he was scum even though my initial push on him was a mistake? Should I have assumed he was town? Saying I had no read (which is essentially what I said) was the only logical response.
I think town is less likely to make the 'mistake' you made, less likely to attack that hard in the first place and less likely to retract in the manner that you did. I mean, what point is there in saying he can be either scum or town other than making it abundently clear to everyone you have no extra knowledge? I believe the manner in which you withdrew your case shows your intention was to avoid being attacked for it, and the way you used the unvote as some sort of proof in your response to tajo supports this.
You followed to push the wagon, then when pressed stepped back. You attacked Crazy twice, for what I consider bad reasons, but not too strongly, and voted for Empking. I never said you were a mastermind, just that I believe the thinking behind your posts is more likely from a scum point of view, while Empking's actions make no sense regardless of alignment.MT wrote:I followed someone without thinking it through, but my play is more calculated. Riiiiiiiiight...
Oh, and first I was attacking Crazy, now they're subtle nudges.- Raging Rabbit
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MT, you say I'm avoiding "issues" you raised against my case, but the only thing you said over and over in that big post is that I didn't explain how exactly a townie should react.
Townies can obviously react in many ways, so I don't see why this is so relevant, obviouly more than one 'townie' reaction is possible. More important is that your reaction is not one I'd expect from a townie. Call it a gutshot read if you must, but I generally do not expect townies to say things like "I don't want to lynch you, but you're the most suspicious so far" or "at this point, you could be town or scum". They give off the vibe you're making an active effort to appear to scumhunt and show off your townie motives. I'd generally expect a townie who made this kind of mistake (that's a scumtell by itself imo) to say "oh, missed that for some reason. I can see why you ignored the "are you scum?" question, so Unvote."
Crazy, I see why you're uncofortable with the L-1 vote, all I can say is I thought tajo was voting Empking.- Raging Rabbit
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I'll try to explain again. When hunting for scum, I try to look at everyone's play and figure out who's more likely to driven from a scum point of view. There are certain kinds of bad plays that are helpful to neither scum or town, that achieve nothing but draw negative attention and thus are not more likely to come from scum incentive because it's just as much a mistake for them. I believe Empking's play fits the above case - pushing farside so strongly for reasons it is apparant that no one finds convincing isn't something scum are more likely to do imo, it gains them nothing. MT's play, on the other hand, I believefarside wrote: I think RR needs to explain his case better and why he thinks what he does against MT.
I'm really feeling RR as scum. Everything he has called against MT, Empking is just as guilty of.ismore likely to come from scum than town - the way he pushed tajo case does not seem sincere, likely an attempt to throw a vote ("sheer desire to get someone lynched") while making yourself look as pro town as possible ("I don't want to lynch you, but you're the most suspicious", quickly backing away). Also his reason for voting tajo in first place indicates a lack of paying actual attention to what Empking said against him.
A neutral read in itself is not suspicous, specifically stating that you now think he could be scum or town is going out of your way to show you have no extra knowledge and thus is suspicious. I would expect a townie to just say "oh, made a mistake" rather than "oh, made a mistake. I now know nothing about what side you're on!"MT wrote:- If a neutral read on tajo is supicious, then what read should I have had?
Tajo himself. Maybe "pressed" isn't the best way to put it, but you were certainly questioned.MT wrote:You asserted that I backed off from tajo because I was pressed, yet you've never shown where this pressure was coming from.
So?MT wrote: Crazy admitted that my second push on him was valid.
I never said I'm sure you are scum, my view of you isn't any more one-dimensional that of any other player who's voting his best suspect. I haven't been avoiding anything. Your jury tactics are pretty silly.MT wrote:I believe that this is relevant because it demonstrates your one-dimensional view of me. You are charactarizing almost everything I do as suspicious. I have news for you, Raging Rabbit; correcting a misunderstanding is protown. Expressing a neutral read on someone invovled in said misunderstanding is protown, too, but of course you know that. That's why you're avoiding it.
Wrong. Scum make much more of an effort to appear like they're scumhunting and thinking from a town point of view. Townies honestly are so they don't actively concern themselves with faking it.MT wrote:Every player, Scum or town, tries to give off the vibe that they're scumhuting. Every player, scum or town, tries to appear like a townie. You are essentially accusing me of appearing like every other mafia player but doing a bad job.- Raging Rabbit
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This is Crazy admitting that he didn't adress the issue you wanted him to address, not that doing so is cause for attacking him.Crazy wrote:Yeah, I know, I just wanted to reply to RR without looking like I was ignoring the Empking-Farside thing. I just really can't determine much of anything from that argument.
But clearly if said questioning makes the scum look bad and suddenly think there's something wrong with his case that others may find scummy, it makes sense for him to unvote and say he made a mistake and has no read now to prevent himself from looking bad.MT wrote:Only the wussiest scum ever would back off of their target just because their target was questioning them. I have a really hard time believing you are town when you post nonsense like this.
I've a feeling we're starting to go circular here, and tunnel in on each other. I don't really have too strong a read on anyone else at this point, I'll reread this in the near future and try to come up with more.- Raging Rabbit
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Just reread him, one thing that's really bothering me:tajo wrote:RR, what do you think of Crazy?
Crazy wrote:On second thought, I like Megatheory less now.
Unvote, Vote Megatheory
Post 25 he follows Empking's reasons and votes Tajo, despite that Tajo had actually answered the question. I think Megatheory didn't even bother to check if Tajo did or not.
In Post 53 he follows Empking's poor logic again and FoS's me for trying to avoid discussion. Again, if he'd actually bothered to check the thread, he'd noticed that I have actually said things.
Summary: Empking uses terrible logic, but MT is following it for some reason.Crazy wrote:You're really starting to annoy me, you know. I'm ready to OMGUS your brains out. Excuse me, but I'm not going to comment on every single word on this topic. Yes, that argument does confuse me, and to be honest I really couldn't get anything out of it. The only thing I can gather from that is that Empking and Farside are not scum together.
And what's with you accusing Tajo? Don't you know he's confirmed town?
The only thing that MT did between the second quote in which Crazy seems to think MT's scumhunting is anything but "good and solid" is his vote on me, which is mostly omgus since as far as I can tell the only thing he has on me is not liking my case. Crazy's been voting me for a while now for close to no reasoning ("by means of his gut", and because I missed tajo's vote on MT and put him on L-1 by mistake), so maybe his sudden change of heart is Crazy deciding to piggyback on MT's case to get me lynched, and either buddy up to him or defend a scumpartner (more likely, the sudden change makes his attack on MT look like distancing).Crazy wrote:I feel that Megatheory is town. It just sounds like he's trying hard to scum-hunt, looking at all the options, and putting in some good, solid, effort. Stuff you see more often from town than from scum.
What's your reasons for voting him, other than "this game"?- Raging Rabbit
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That's exactly what I've been saying, he feels like calculated scum that's making an effort to throw suspicion around while looking as pro town as possible, rather than just a stubborn townie pushing a lost cause like Empking. I think his partner is probably either Crazy because they both attacked each other and then suddenly laid off, very possibly scum distancing, or OP who's just generally scummy for lurking and not genuinely scumhunting. Farside I'm not sure about, though his argument with Empking seems more likely to be between two townies.tajo wrote:Now Megatheory is a more calculating player. Likes walls of texts but theres somethings I dislike, like his play in page 2. It doesnt matter what he says. Raging Rabbit is actually right in his analysis of him. He wasnt thinking protown when he joined my wagon and his "I dont want to lynch you but youre the most suspicous so far" feels off.
Um, no. I never backtracked, unvoted or changed my mind. All I was trying to do was prevent the annoying situation of a huge back and forth between two people that no one but them bothers to read and prevents both from looking at other options, which I see happen to me and others a lot on this site and is never good. Having only one suspect and tunnelvisioning him takes you out of the context of the game. That in no way means that I stopped suspecting MT.Crazy wrote:Like, uhh, doing the exact same thing in Paragraph #2 that he's accusing MT of doing in Paragraph #1?
Why, though? What did you see in your reread that made MT go from following terrible logic, not bothering to check the thread, and attacking confirmed town to being so very town all the sudden? He hasn't done anything between the last time you expressed suspiciion of him and your following post other than defend himself and OMGUS me some more.Crazy wrote:Also, in response to RR's case on me, I frequently change my positions on people after rereads.
I too would strongly like adeadline extention.- Raging Rabbit
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I'm just really confused right now. My best scum read turned out wrong, farside and Empking who I thought were likely town completely flip flopped on their earlier disagreement with my case to get him lynched, OP is still scummy for lurking his way under the radar, and Crazy I still have a strange vibe about but the link I perceived between him and MT obviously wasn't there.
So basically I suspect everyone except tajo, need a few days to re-read this and try to make up my mind about all this mess.- Raging Rabbit
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I find a lot of these drawn out back and forths of two people all out attacking each other are between two townies, scum have more of a tendercy to avoid strong early game conflicts. Individually, I took Empking as misguided town and Farside I had no strong read about. His lynching vote was a really bizzare move, don't really see what scum had to gain from it though so he could well have been frustrated town, but I'll be keeping my eyes open on his replacement.populartajo wrote:I cant blame you, RR. I got blinded with Farside and Mega interactions. Sorry, Mega. One question, why did you believe Farside and Empking were likely town?- Raging Rabbit
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I'm not sure enough of anything yet, hence my lack of vote. Empking and farside's play at the end of yesterday really changed the pro town read I had on them, I think townies in the aforementioned form of conflict are more likely to stay locked on each other. Both have also made comments on MT that made me think they clearly weren't gonna vote him. Looks more like one of them's scum now.- Raging Rabbit
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I was trying to prevent an annoying circle-discussion, which only hurts the town imo. MT and I have basically said all we were going to by that point, it's not like there's anything he wrote I avoided replying to. Don't think he was defeating my points, though obviously I turned out wrong.Crazy wrote:RR - bad case on MT; and then stopped arguing with him after MT was defeating his points.
I don't get why you're giving him a free pass like that. Farside could've figured out after speedhammering that his only out was getting replaced or somethin', admittedly not that likely but he's far from auto-town.PimHel - Scum don't get frustrated and replaced Night 1 after a successful mislynch. They just don't.- Raging Rabbit
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There's a huge different between taking back everything you said and making phony looking appeasement gestures and trying to prevent a circle discussion. I never went back on my case, which ended up getting him lynched. Show me how that's the same thing.Crazy wrote:Yes, but you were accusing MT of something so very similar...- Raging Rabbit
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We both know that's an extreme case of strawmanning. I like how you admit this yourself to take the sting out of me saying so.Crazy wrote:MT: Tajo, you evaded the question!
Tajo: No, I didn't.
MT: Yeah, you did.
Tajo: No, look here, I didn't.
MT: Oh, yeah, nevermind. My mistake. I guess that was a null-tell then.
RR: You took back your argument, MT. Scum!
MT: *defends himself validly*
RR: Bleh, we're not getting anywhere with this circle discussion. Let's stop talking.
Yeah, call that a strawman; it is sorta, but that's the basic idea I'm going for. And I've never seen a town that just halts the argument with their top suspect. If you really thought he was scum, you could just keep that argument going and try to get him to slip up. In case you haven't noticed, scum don't like the spotlight. Taking your top suspect out of the spotlight is not what townies do.
If we had more time I would've questioned him on other things, but this particular discussion about his initial retreated attack on tajo and my read of it wasn't doing anyone any good. I think both of our stances were clear and nothing further was there to be achieved really. In some of my early games here, I ended up getting myself into an overly long circle discussion such as this, which in addition to being really frustrating also made me tunnelvision on a single suspect and the rest of the town lose interest and ignore my case. I've since been trying to avoid such discussions, I think any benefit of the small chance for your suspect to be scum and slip up (which becomes more and more unlikely the more circular a discussion gets) is far outweighed by the strong downsides I explained above.
The manner in which he attacked tajo and the manner in which he took it back and tried to appease him both read to me like opprotunistic scum, I realise this is a gut read that's very hard to logically explain but I did my best. It's certainly understandable you weren't convinced, and unfortunate that I turned out wrong, but that doesn't make me scum.Crazy wrote:But the really strange part is that your whole argument boils down to one little point: that comment that MT said about "Well, you could be scum or town at this point." I really have no idea why you would be willing to lynch someone for such an arbitrary comment.- Raging Rabbit
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OP - lurking and isn't doing any sincere scumhunting.
Empking - I need to go back to his day 1 play in more detail, some of the things he's said about MT and myself feel contrived and inconsistent with the misguided townie read I had on him yesterday.
Crazy - I had him pegged as MT's scumpartner, now I'm unsure whether his complete change of heart about him means anything or not. It's possible he knew MT was town who did something scummy looking, and after seeing me go after him as well chose to change his 'read', sit back, and attack me for mislynching the next day.
PimHel - still waiting to hear more from him, that hammer yesterday was extremely weird though.
Tajo - essentially confirmed.- Raging Rabbit
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The strongest example I remember is my newbie game, where I got really pissed off at thok who ended up town.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=275
I'm also pretty sure I mentioned disliking circular discussion in the more recent Cop Central:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... highlight=- Raging Rabbit
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I don't get what you expect to gain from asking him to tell you what to think.populartajo wrote:
Could you do it thinking in my perspective? Assuming you are me and you dont know that guy Crazy is confirmed town. Plz! Is it hard?
Also, since Penguin pretty much confirmed himself scum, I don't see the point in discussing possible partners now. We're just giving his buddy extra info on who to NK.- Raging Rabbit
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I'd rather force the scum to make their nk choice with minimal information than have tonight's nk chime in a little more. I don't think knowing an uninformed confirmed's opinions will help much tomorrow, considering that the scumbag will also know everyone's opinions and will be able to pick the one to kill. I very rarely support discussing future lynches when the current day's lynch is decided.- Raging Rabbit
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I had a very strong feeling tajo was a cop, so we roleblocked him as well since there was a 50% for a doc to be in the game and he was the obvious protection target. I didn't mind the lack of n1 kill, since it was still essentially lylo and tajo thought I was innocent. I suggested that OP should claimdocif it becomes apprant he's gonna be lynched, which would force the real doctor to claim even if it doesn't end up preventing his lynch. Obviously very frustrating he got confused, but I still figured I could get Crazy lynched if he isn't the doc. I was very unlikely to persuade anyone to lynch empking or Coug over myself, so Crazy being doc was pretty much game over even if he wouldn't have guessed the NK correctly, but impressive instincts there nonetheless. I picked Coug simply for being the second most innocent looking and only possibly protected if Crazy was doc. Might've done that n1 if I knew then how farside replacing out made everyone so sure she was innocent, guess I underestimated her good rep. We also considered killing Crazy n1, which I kick myself for not doing but I had no way to know he was doc.
Frustrating ending for me, but this was definitely a very fun game. Mafia quicktopic - http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/dsqHubP5t2wy - Raging Rabbit
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