TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think I did that either.

Did you claimed TR on TGP? I clearly remember you chasing Nancy away from TGP

The closest I came to calling TGP town was I think when I was arguing with nancy about the way she conceptualizes scum play vs town play, but I just checked and even in that post I explicitly said that TGP could be scum.

I do not believe I've ever been town reading TGP this game? Could be wrong about that, I talk a lot and change my mind and don't have the greatest memory, but I don't believe I said I think he's town. Mainly because I don't think I ever thought he was >rand chance to be town.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think my intent was to chase nancy away at all, but fine you can interpret it that way if you want.

[Thestatusquo]

I sure agree that I think he was trying to look like he was.

[Thestatusquo]

I) I am also having difficulty sorting Shea

Based on my earlier reads and the current wagon composition, I consider the Zoraster wagon to be cursed. Akarin was scummy af earlier and I like that wagon comp better.

VOTE: Akarin

Shea, skimming through an ISO as short as mine really oughtn’t require multiple demands.

My dude, seriously fuck off.

Norwegian is scummy af, and BB and TGP have been on and off the Zor wagon. You and Mistyx have also been hard to parse.

Meanwhile, Towny people are voting scummy Akarin for better reasons.

It’s a commonly-held fallacy that I have to answer all questions put to me and/or explain every facet of my reasoning.

I don’t.

This is literally everything I've said to or about you, snipping out the irrelevant parts of quotes.

None of that's angry. @Norwegian, I've said even less to or about you.

If being lightly suspicious of someone is "angry shading," you ain't playing Mafia.

@Norwegian, I've said even less to or about you.

Which is quite odd for someone you "suspect".
Why aren't you trying to solve my allignment?

What part of "I find you suspicious" is not trying to solve you?

Frankly, this kind of bullshit, disingenuous attack is why I think you're +rand scum, and the fact that you and others have been doing the same to Zor make me think he's +rand Town.

Whatever anyone thinks about his reads, I think he was trying to stop Zor wagon.

Like I think his opposition to the wagon was suspect, and seemed to be based on very little to me and then the actions he took to "stop" the wagon amount to voting someone else and refusing to explain and then making an AtE post directed at literally one person on the wagon. I just don't see what you're seeing here.

[Thestatusquo]

I have to admit the whole "I'm going to sign up to play team mafia" and then not play at all in your game is baffling to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I hate anime.

I have only liked one anime ever.

[Thestatusquo]

is it happening?

[Thestatusquo]

I thought about it and I'm pretty sure I like ramcius's posting today a lot more than yesterday, though, which makes misty's position kind of strange. I can't remember if misty was expressing suspicion of ramcius yesterday or not and I can't be assed to check but I can't really remember them doing so. I like the thought process behind these ramcius posts even if I don't agree with the conclusions. Don't think I'm all that interested in pushing there rn.

[Thestatusquo]

I just don't like how Ramcius seemed to have no opinion coming in today, until randomly attacking me when he's ignored me up to now. Only because daddy FL is pushing me. I think it's a very safe position to be in as scum to push me in the name of Flavour Leaf, and justifying yourself with logic only when the actual wagon has been set up.

I came in swinging at TGP and my push had more weight behind it than your petty "let's flip Akarin for info". Did I really ignored you? I remember you trying to look busy by asking for my opinions D1 and doing nothing afterwards, refusing to discuss, when I pressed that issue

You’re just bad at this game then?
So it’s scummy that i ignore your stupid ass questions.

phone posting so I'll get to the where i'm standing question later but I just wanted to briefly answer its because his posts seem like they have exactly the element I thought was missing yesterday where he seems to be interested in determining alignments and scum hunting. He's asking questions hes posting interpretations of things, all of those things are elements that I though his posting was completely devoid of yesterday.

I'm pretty sure you're town so I don't think the push is good but I don't want to vote it either.

[Thestatusquo]

TSQ where are you standing today?

I like pressure on akarin. My plan was to come into today to try to engage with her to see if I could tease out reads and maybe some participation I could sort but she hasn't been here and I don't know what to do with the slot because again it's just so different from what I saw in Among Us Mafia. I am more interested in this than in TGP because to me TGP looks more like I've experienced them in other games as town than akarin does.

I don't really think either side of you-FL is scum but if its one of the two I think its FL. I'm having a hard time getting FL outside of null which listening to everyone seems to be his MO.

I've already said my piece about ramcius. This is a lot of the scum hunting and engagement I thought was lacking from their day one play so I don't really feel like pushing in that direction right now.

At the risk of drawing nancy's ire I think the way pine interacted with the wagon yesterday was pretty suspect where they were against it and then kind of flailed against it ineffectually while refusing to actually do anything that might stop it from happening.

So I'm interested in putting some pressure on akarin and pine and I'm not sure which yet, ideally one of them would come into the thread and start engaging with things.

[Thestatusquo]

I can take hard times. Lord knows I give them, so I better be able to take them.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not that hard to read.

i feel like im obvious town here

Why? Honestly I'm getting really frustrated by this group, there's just like 5 people in this game declaring themselves obvious town as if that is ever an argument that can be evaluated from a self made statement like that.

[Thestatusquo]

reserving judgement on DEB for the time being

TSQ, can you walk me through why your read on Ramicus today outweighs the push you had on him yesterday?

Because the entirety of my push yesterday was based on two things:

1) Ramcius not taking actions that I thought were indicative of a player trying to sort other slots.
2) Ramcius misrepping me in the course of me pushing him for the former.

The second thing is still there and I haven't thrown it away; I'm not lock reading the slot or anything. But the push I've seen today from his has looked like a player trying to sort slots to me, so I'm much less interested in pushing in that direction, because I think Akarin and pine are much more interesting directions to go.

Speaking of which
VOTE: pine

[Thestatusquo]

reserving judgement on DEB for the time being

TSQ, can you walk me through why your read on Ramicus today outweighs the push you had on him yesterday?

Because the entirety of my push yesterday was based on two things:

1) Ramcius not taking actions that I thought were indicative of a player trying to sort other slots.
2) Ramcius misrepping me in the course of me pushing him for the former.

The second thing is still there and I haven't thrown it away; I'm not lock reading the slot or anything. But the push I've seen today from his has looked like a player trying to sort slots to me, so I'm much less interested in pushing in that direction, because I think Akarin and pine are much more interesting directions to go.

Speaking of which
VOTE: pine

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not that hard to read.

i feel like im obvious town here

Why? Honestly I'm getting really frustrated by this group, there's just like 5 people in this game declaring themselves obvious town as if that is ever an argument that can be evaluated from a self made statement like that.

Unless you can find evidence to the contrary, it’s usually town indicative - more often than not. Kokichi for example, would be a player where this would be NAI for.

I can only speak for myself and my lived experience.

I never make statements like "I am town because..." as either alignment generally because I know that they are definitionally WIFOM so its flabbergasting to me that other people don't seem to understand this.

In my decade+ of playing forum mafia I would say "I am town because..." is slightly an argument made more often by scum but is generally mostly NAI. It's more a predictor of noobness than anything else, which is why I am so dispirited to see a bunch of people with a lot of experience making it.

[Thestatusquo]

So pine made his big AtE "hey I'm behind I'm going to ignore the whole game and read the last 10 pages and start fresh" thing and we've thusfar gotten... nothing.

[Thestatusquo]

All of this is just a distraction from pine imo.

[Thestatusquo]

My thoughts on all of this is this is a classic case of looking at minutia in the ISOs of the players who are actually here and participating while the scum just don't do anything at all.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not interested in limming out of akarin and pine.

[Thestatusquo]

Like let's get the slot replaced or actually engaging by having a real wagon. I'm out here by myself on this one.

[Thestatusquo]

Honestly I'm finding it hard to engage with your push on FL ico because you're spread out over 20 points and a bunch of them are cryptic things. If you could succinctly tell me why FL is scum in your mind in one post I'd appreciate it.

I'd also appreciate literally any reason to think pine is town.

[Thestatusquo]

*20 posts.

[Thestatusquo]

@TSQ

i think i need to bust the ego mode out for this one

ive been trying to just stay low and try to make it to end game so i can do a hero solve, but looks like these fools gonna get me night killed

you've been laying WAAAAYYYY to low for a powerplayer of your caliber
when Nancy (who you 'townread) and me got into a fight, you stood buy and ate popcorn. Why didn't you step in? Because I think u were perfectly happy with the gamestate at that point. Having town eat each other alive in thread, derailing any other discussion.

Nancy practicly walked into your pocker if ur scum here. Most of your posts (and i'm talking a high90+% here) are completely NAI. Your push on Norwee is bad. You aren't sorting other slots, just focusing in on the 1. Ignoring people who townread them.

Why should i be townreading you here?

That's about what I thought.

I don't understand why "You haven't given me a reason to town read you" = "I am scum reading you, though."

That's the leap I'm not understanding. This seems to me to be a lot of burden of proficiency stuff. I have't played with FL, I have no preconceived notions of them except one time I played with boonskies and he was an idiot and an asshole. I don't see a lot of reason to think "you would be great if you were town" is a real argument.

[Thestatusquo]

What do you mean by setup spec.

Could be a role in the game, pretty dumb thing to fake claim. Pretty NAI. Is there something I'm missing here with the claim?

[Thestatusquo]

I have no clue. Wanna share your teams reasoning for why its scum indicative?

[Thestatusquo]

This is like the third time you have made this post this game.

What do you mean "this is a bad time?" You're the one who chose the time to post. If it was a bad time why not post earlier? Why not post the day before? Why not just do the thing and then post if you actually plan on doing it? This is such a bizarre thing to say and it really reads like scum just really reaching for another excuse to kick the can down the road.

VOTE: Akarin

Either actually start participating in the game, replace out, or get yeeted. These are your options.

[Thestatusquo]

As in I wanted to check in and say something so I don't get prodded again. But in my life right now, this time of day is not a great time of day for me to give the game much time.

I'm reading up trying to find something to comment on that isn't asking a question that someone might have already asked and leaving a bunch of tabs open for later.

Maybe I should just replace out but I was looking forward to this damn game so much and there's no reason to think things won't get better except they keep not getting better.

I get that I've let everyone down but my life has just been a complete disaster for the last like month and I keep thinking it will get better and things keep getting worse.

Ok but I've seen these exact same posts by scum frequently. Like the exact same posts. Fake AtE and everything. If life sucks out of the game I'm sorry, but I can't give it a pass. The replacement option exists for a reason.

[Thestatusquo]

Nancy very emphatically does not agree.

[Thestatusquo]

And there's my content.

I'll try to be back tonight and fully catch up.

If we could try not to make me feel like absolute shit even more during the catchup that'd be nice. I'm in enough of a guilt spiral as is.

In a game of mafia I will not give credence for AtE like this. You are continuing to play exactly like I've seen scum play in this exact situation over and over again. I'm not in the habit of letting AtE stop me from voting people.

Once again, if you can't play there are options for that, but as long as you're still a player in the game I'm gunna keep voting you.

[Thestatusquo]

Ftr I have other thoughts on Akarin as well that I'd like to throw out there, just finished a deep dive:

1) The juxtaposition of Akarin as town in Among us mafia with her play in this game. This isn't just an activity thing, though it's exacerbated by it. If you go back and look at her iso in that game (here you'll note the difference. The engagement with the game isnt something measured by activity but by how akarin is actually trying to solve the game. Compare a post like this:

it doesnt matter if someone needs to be in a room two nights in a row. the point of leashing the entire PL is that nobody can wander off and kill you when u r in that room alone on night 2

I meant in terms of how many nights it make take to complete. We can't just visit X number of rooms each night and cover each room on 1 night.

Maybe not enough people have combinations like mine for it to matter, but wanted to claim this before we get too far.

Also splitting into smaller groups where the towniest players are paired makes sense, but if scum have a regular NK they can potentially frame people.

or this

Blitzo, you say a few times that no-elim is obviously bad, like to the point you want to vote for people suggesting it.

Why?

The idea behind it is that we get tasks done faster if we have more players working on them and D1 eliminations are usually on town anyway.

After 1 Day, 1/3-1/2 of the tasks are gonna be done so each miseliminated townie only adds 1 task unless they were one of the minority who didn't do one as part of keeping someone else safe.

What part of that is obviously bad to you?

with her posts in this game like this

I sort of instinctively want to defend Zor because that wagon came up so fast, but I really don't see anything towny from them, and looking at the claim I don't like it. Debating hammering.

The majority of her posts are stuff like this. There's some stuff that's closer to the town Akarin I saw in among us, particularly when she jumps into the zoraster claim discussion, but the majority of it is just fluff devoid of any attempt to solve anything.

Why did I sign up for an anime game? I still have no idea what this means.

I think both the ability name and being a JOAT are perfectly plausible for the anime character that Zor claimed, but I have some doubts that they would go together.

i.e. if the ability was going to be named "Kiin" as claimed, I don't know what it would be, but I wouldn't think it would be a JOAT. And if she were to be a JOAT I'd think the ability would be named something else given the character. See the wiki I linked for details.

Dunn thinks I'm overthinking this.

Also, the more I think about it the more I don't like stuff like this. I think its subtle shade of zoraster that was attempting to fence sit the wagon (in addition to the quote I linked earlier where she shades the wagon while saying she might hammer it. In addition to that her reason for suspecting the claim seems really dubious to me, granted I don't really know anything about anime but it seemed like she was saying "the pieces fit but not quite in the right way" which is something scum might say to casually shade to continue momentum on a wagon. We even get the "lol my teammate thinks all of this is nonsense." so we're not even supposed to put that much credence into what she's saying.

This form of wishy washy refusing to take a stand is scum indicative, and again doesn't match my impression of the way Akarin plays as town from Among us. The akarin in that game had opinions and fought for them, not meekly thrown out shade that was counterbalanced by her own teammates saying it was bad.

I also find it weird that this was thrown in randomly. If akarin is having trouble with this game why aren't her teammates helping her more? You'd think they'd be able to give more impressions about the game than the one time they've been referenced as a throwaway. In my experience playing team mafia in 2018 teams are more likely to be actively reading the game and giving opinions if you're town than if you're scum. The logic on this is very clear: town needs help finding the scum and scum do not. I don't expect people to bring up their reads from their teammates all the time and indeed I would be annoyed if they did that, I just feel like akarin is using them in a very specific way here and that's rubbing me the wrong way.

So I thought we didn't want to elim Zor through the JOAT claim? Did that change or was it not just as much a consensus as I thought it was?

This post is interesting because its a really weird progression with her other thoughts on Zor. She was the main proponent of not believing the JOAT claim and shading it and now is acting surprised when people didn't believe it? This seems incredibly fake.

Yeah, I think I'd rather any of the other non-me wagons than Zor.

Here we are staying off the wagon even though earlier we declared that zor "hadn't done a single townie thing" and after shading the claim and after saying she was considering hammering.

I'm here to VOTE: Akarin yet again.

tl;dr Even outside of the activity issues and the AtE, I think akarins interaction with zor is textbook scum trying to stay off a town wagon while still trying to give it momentum, and I think her general approach to the game is just entirely different from among us.

[Thestatusquo]

Ftr I have other thoughts on Akarin as well that I'd like to throw out there, just finished a deep dive:

1) The juxtaposition of Akarin as town in Among us mafia with her play in this game. This isn't just an activity thing, though it's exacerbated by it. If you go back and look at her iso in that game (here you'll note the difference. The engagement with the game isnt something measured by activity but by how akarin is actually trying to solve the game. Compare a post like this:

it doesnt matter if someone needs to be in a room two nights in a row. the point of leashing the entire PL is that nobody can wander off and kill you when u r in that room alone on night 2

I meant in terms of how many nights it make take to complete. We can't just visit X number of rooms each night and cover each room on 1 night.

Maybe not enough people have combinations like mine for it to matter, but wanted to claim this before we get too far.

Also splitting into smaller groups where the towniest players are paired makes sense, but if scum have a regular NK they can potentially frame people.

or this

Blitzo, you say a few times that no-elim is obviously bad, like to the point you want to vote for people suggesting it.

Why?

The idea behind it is that we get tasks done faster if we have more players working on them and D1 eliminations are usually on town anyway.

After 1 Day, 1/3-1/2 of the tasks are gonna be done so each miseliminated townie only adds 1 task unless they were one of the minority who didn't do one as part of keeping someone else safe.

What part of that is obviously bad to you?

with her posts in this game like this

I sort of instinctively want to defend Zor because that wagon came up so fast, but I really don't see anything towny from them, and looking at the claim I don't like it. Debating hammering.

The majority of her posts are stuff like this. There's some stuff that's closer to the town Akarin I saw in among us, particularly when she jumps into the zoraster claim discussion, but the majority of it is just fluff devoid of any attempt to solve anything.

Why did I sign up for an anime game? I still have no idea what this means.

I think both the ability name and being a JOAT are perfectly plausible for the anime character that Zor claimed, but I have some doubts that they would go together.

i.e. if the ability was going to be named "Kiin" as claimed, I don't know what it would be, but I wouldn't think it would be a JOAT. And if she were to be a JOAT I'd think the ability would be named something else given the character. See the wiki I linked for details.

Dunn thinks I'm overthinking this.

Also, the more I think about it the more I don't like stuff like this. I think its subtle shade of zoraster that was attempting to fence sit the wagon (in addition to the quote I linked earlier where she shades the wagon while saying she might hammer it. In addition to that her reason for suspecting the claim seems really dubious to me, granted I don't really know anything about anime but it seemed like she was saying "the pieces fit but not quite in the right way" which is something scum might say to casually shade to continue momentum on a wagon. We even get the "lol my teammate thinks all of this is nonsense." so we're not even supposed to put that much credence into what she's saying.

This form of wishy washy refusing to take a stand is scum indicative, and again doesn't match my impression of the way Akarin plays as town from Among us. The akarin in that game had opinions and fought for them, not meekly thrown out shade that was counterbalanced by her own teammates saying it was bad.

I also find it weird that this was thrown in randomly. If akarin is having trouble with this game why aren't her teammates helping her more? You'd think they'd be able to give more impressions about the game than the one time they've been referenced as a throwaway. In my experience playing team mafia in 2018 teams are more likely to be actively reading the game and giving opinions if you're town than if you're scum. The logic on this is very clear: town needs help finding the scum and scum do not. I don't expect people to bring up their reads from their teammates all the time and indeed I would be annoyed if they did that, I just feel like akarin is using them in a very specific way here and that's rubbing me the wrong way.

So I thought we didn't want to elim Zor through the JOAT claim? Did that change or was it not just as much a consensus as I thought it was?

This post is interesting because its a really weird progression with her other thoughts on Zor. She was the main proponent of not believing the JOAT claim and shading it and now is acting surprised when people didn't believe it? This seems incredibly fake.

Yeah, I think I'd rather any of the other non-me wagons than Zor.

Here we are staying off the wagon even though earlier we declared that zor "hadn't done a single townie thing" and after shading the claim and after saying she was considering hammering.

I'm here to VOTE: Akarin yet again.

tl;dr Even outside of the activity issues and the AtE, I think akarins interaction with zor is textbook scum trying to stay off a town wagon while still trying to give it momentum, and I think her general approach to the game is just entirely different from among us.

Why the fuck is the entire town just ignoring me.

[Thestatusquo]

Like if you disagree with what I'm saying that's fine but like 6 or 7 people have posted since I posted this and only pine has seen the need to comment on it and thats fucking wack.

[Thestatusquo]

@Shea because you’ve been hyper aggressive about your generally-shitty reads.

I disagree, and wonder why you're continuing to attempt to antagonize me rather than attempting to solve the game.

[Thestatusquo]

This is a bizarre push. I made a case, and I am not going to let it be ignored. This is good play, will you do something besides snipe at me?

[Thestatusquo]

Like honestly the balance of your play this game can most accurately be described as "say something rude and then get snippy and go NO U when someone points out you're being rude."

It's annoying the crap out of me honestly so if you could like have a snack and get your blood sugar up and then stop acting like an asshole that would be cool.

[Thestatusquo]

All of y’all need to be way less needy. This is one of the things I hate about current site meta.

You are not special.

Yes. I voted for Akarin for roughly parallel reasons.

Please identify how much you want your ego stroked.

You realize there's like 10 other NON you people in this game, right and that I literally was talking to everyone BUT you, right? Like I specifically called that out?

[Thestatusquo]

Like seriously are you ok? What specifically do you have a problem with with me making a case and then trying to make sure people see it and comment on it? What is so offensive about that to you? You're being truly bizarre right now.

[Thestatusquo]

I have exactly zero problem with you, Shea, except that you’re taking things very personally.

Perhaps you should examine the words you use to speak to and describe other human beings. You would never speak to me this way IRL and we're supposedly playing a fun game on the internet. I'm going to stop interacting with you about this right now because its super fucking distracting to anything thats relevant to this game but if you genuinely think you were just sitting here doin' nothing and I just got offended out of nowhere then I don't know what to tell you. Please stop being this rude to me.

[Thestatusquo]

Shouldn't e not be allowed in chat?

[Thestatusquo]

If Misty pushes you will your read on her change? Would mine?

Misty has pushed me. My read didn't change.
And no i wouldn't.

Basically where I’m at rn is null on TGP. I like Shea’s Akarin case but I also do know the rl stuff is real but she hasn’t really given out too much in the way of trs, maybe me?

But I hard tr you for most of D1 but irrespective of your alignment, your reaction to being sr is to first push Ram but backed off when Shea started tr him and I took a hard stance against it. Then FL pushes you and suddenly he scumslipped and I don’t even understand what your issue is with Pine other than him pushing you.

Your Jingle question to Pine was good, however you should logically view that is likely being town indicative for Pine. Why? Because the reason molla was NK’d was far from obvious to me and you somehow thought it sus that Jingle didn’t see it? If I who is in this game didn’t see it, then why would it be suspicious to you that Jingle who is not even n this game didn’t? Jingle not seeing it points to Pine very likely being town because town is far more likely to miss something like this than scum.

I think this is kind of an odd response to my post because my whole point was that even if the IRL life stuff is real, I'm scum reading what she has done both in terms on content and how her team is interacting with the game, and I think specifically the use of the aggressive AtE is more scum indicative than town indicative.

[Thestatusquo]

If Misty pushes you will your read on her change? Would mine?

Misty has pushed me. My read didn't change.
And no i wouldn't.

Basically where I’m at rn is null on TGP. I like Shea’s Akarin case but I also do know the rl stuff is real but she hasn’t really given out too much in the way of trs, maybe me?

But I hard tr you for most of D1 but irrespective of your alignment, your reaction to being sr is to first push Ram but backed off when Shea started tr him and I took a hard stance against it. Then FL pushes you and suddenly he scumslipped and I don’t even understand what your issue is with Pine other than him pushing you.

Your Jingle question to Pine was good, however you should logically view that is likely being town indicative for Pine. Why? Because the reason molla was NK’d was far from obvious to me and you somehow thought it sus that Jingle didn’t see it? If I who is in this game didn’t see it, then why would it be suspicious to you that Jingle who is not even n this game didn’t? Jingle not seeing it points to Pine very likely being town because town is far more likely to miss something like this than scum.

I think this is kind of an odd response to my post because my whole point was that even if the IRL life stuff is real, I'm scum reading what she has done both in terms on content and how her team is interacting with the game, and I think specifically the use of the aggressive AtE is more scum indicative than town indicative.

No it isn’t because she has confided it to me. I’m not at all suggesting it invalidates what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it affected me emotionally because we’re friends. That won’t stop me from voting her if I think she’s the optimal elim today.

I get this, I guess I just expected better engagement from town than "I agree generally" and then do nothing about it. Everyone seems off in their own worlds this game, and perhaps I'm guilty of that as well but the last 2 pages have been dominated by Norwee-FL slap fight and I don't particularly think either of them is scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I did a meta dive on DEB and honestly my issue with pursing them is that they just don't post anything as either alignment.

Here's a town game I found of theirs where basically they just did this same thing and got eliminated d3 as town.

viewtopic.php?t=81078&f=56&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I'm not super interested in elimming someone based on playstyle yet, I'd rather actually scum hunt. The only thing I can really see different that game is they posted more frequently at points. It's frustrating and I wish the rules were enforced in such a way as to not allow players to play the game this way (my rule sets prohibit it! plug plug) but when confronted with a slot like this or Not_Mafia I just kind of throw my hands up and say well we'll get to them eventually.

I'd rather go after partners because I feel like if DEB is scum he's not winning at end game if he's the only scum alive.

[Thestatusquo]

sure.

[Thestatusquo]

120 opening post - doesn't feel forced
All posts regarding the claim and flavour read like 'oh hey i know about this and i can finally contribute! here's my thoughts! - which feels townie to me

940 about the same thing - feels like a player who's a bit lost in this game but then thinks 'hey i can contribute here'
945 at least some effort in sorting/making a poe

1432 not gonna say you can't fake this as scum, but generally asking the thread 'is anyone around' does ping like town to me
1434

locktown

1436 isn't terrible

1) why does that feel townie? Scum frequently seize on mech discussion as a "safe" place where they can express thoughts. I look at the results of that comment, which was continued momentum on a townie by shading a claim that eventually ended up being true. I especially, as I said in my case, don't like the juxtaposition here with her interactions with the wagon later on.

2) Same response as the first post. Especially juxtaposed with how she said she was considering hammering.

3) This is a random collection of players with no reasoning whatsoever, not a sort. One of those players is confirmed town. This list also consists of {player who was being pushed by one of the loudest players in the game, player who was basically just posting to vote pine who is now confirmed town, player who has done basically nothing the entire game}. It's the easiest least wave making read list of all time, with no follow up.

4) I have no opinions on this post.

5) lol

6) this post is fine to me, outweighed by the other stuff I see, but fine.

Overarching thought: Could these posts come from a townie? I mean yeah sure. I don't think they're particularly townie posts, though, and I think they're very easily fakeable. I tend to look to the motivation of the posts and think "what was the impact of this post on the game and did it push the game in a pro town or pro scum direction" and I think that on balance these posts don't tend to do much for the hypothesis "akarin is attempting to push the game in a town direction." besides maybe the last post. I think the claim stuff in particular does the opposite, but the rest of it is completely null at best in terms of if it seems like its a player who actually attempting to make the game go in a town direction. Shrug.

[Thestatusquo]

this is super not productive folks. can we like... play the game like adults please?

[Thestatusquo]

Pine do you think "lining up town miselims" is a thing that actually happens in real life? Like actually? I've been playing for a decade and a half and I think I've seen it like once. Like this doesn't seem like an intellectually honest argument on your part.

Also, for someone who wanted to make a big deal about TMI that obviously wasn't TMI earlier you sure did just say a couple players were town that you can't possibly know the alignment of.

[Thestatusquo]

You really think that people vote someone the next day because they agreed to vote them the day before? Show me. I think the thing you're accusing norwee of is nonsense.

You said someone is "trying to set up three town miselims." how do you know those people are town, other than yourself? I don't do this to suggest you're TMIing, I'm saying it to show how much I think TMI is a bullshit overused tell. Townies accidentally TMI all the time.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine has no reason to give me the sheer amount of momentum he would have given me if he is scum here.

this could go in reverse as well, no?

Wouldn't town!Pine be a LOT more cautious enabling what could potentially be scum!you from his perspective? a wrong townread could destroy the game from their perspective then

The difference I think is one of those players is making a calculated decision based on full information and the other is trying to sort a slot organically by trying to determine alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine has no reason to give me the sheer amount of momentum he would have given me if he is scum here.

this could go in reverse as well, no?

Wouldn't town!Pine be a LOT more cautious enabling what could potentially be scum!you from his perspective? a wrong townread could destroy the game from their perspective then

The difference I think is one of those players is making a calculated decision based on full information and the other is trying to sort a slot organically by trying to determine alignment.

Like I don't think town makes "strategic" town reads in this fashion a lot. I don't.

[Thestatusquo]

Am I really talking myself into a fucking pine town read?

[Thestatusquo]

Pine has no reason to give me the sheer amount of momentum he would have given me if he is scum here.

this could go in reverse as well, no?

Wouldn't town!Pine be a LOT more cautious enabling what could potentially be scum!you from his perspective? a wrong townread could destroy the game from their perspective then

The difference I think is one of those players is making a calculated decision based on full information and the other is trying to sort a slot organically by trying to determine alignment.

and which, do you think, is which?

I'm saying what I just said in my last post. I don't think town frequently consciously asks themselves "what is the strategic impact of town reading X player here" when they're sorting a slot, whereas I think scum asks themselves that question a lot. So I think that the counter possibility you raise isn't nearly as likely as what Flavor is saying here.

[Thestatusquo]

I think you should all try to be nice even though you might consider it all to be "in the game"

I will reiterate again that this is a game on the internet. Can we all just stop being assholes? And yes, all of you are being assholes.

[Thestatusquo]

Walk through the logic on misty with me. I liked their interaction with me at the beginning of the game and I feel like I kind of let them fade from my attention.

[Thestatusquo]

neighborhoods are useless zzzzzzzz

[Thestatusquo]

I'm explicitly not doing that. I just am refusing to let your AtE derail my scum read.

[Thestatusquo]

Fuck off

no, stop using AtE as a deflection and misrepping what I'm saying about your play here by trying to pretend I'm attacking your activity when I'm not. I'm sorry if shitty things are going on in your life but I can't let that stop me from playing the game and its scummy af that you keep trying to make me stop playing the game this way.

[Thestatusquo]

This post is interesting because its a really weird progression with her other thoughts on Zor. She was the main proponent of not believing the JOAT claim and shading it and now is acting surprised when people didn't believe it? This seems incredibly fake

If you were reading my ISO, did you not see my comments about TGP's claim?

I did but I didn't think they were particularly important. I'm open to you explaining why they are in your mind.

[Thestatusquo]

This post is interesting because its a really weird progression with her other thoughts on Zor. She was the main proponent of not believing the JOAT claim and shading it and now is acting surprised when people didn't believe it? This seems incredibly fake

If you were reading my ISO, did you not see my comments about TGP's claim?

Link/quote?

I'm Senku Ishigami, 1-shot Neighborizer (flavored Tactical Intelligence).

This claim makes sense to me, but I'm a

little

surprised by the flavor of the ability too, which makes me think I'm just not vibing with how the ability names were created and maybe Zor's claim is better than I thought. Like I can see how it'd be for "Tactical Intelligence" but the guy re-invented cell phones though, that's like my first thought about him.

[Thestatusquo]

This is a theme game? Why would the mod ever confirm setup information like that to you?

[Thestatusquo]

I'm literally never in a million years making a decision in a mafia game based off of Titus VCA which in my opinion has never been used to draw correct conclusions in the history of ever.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm literally never in a million years making a decision in a mafia game based off of Titus VCA which in my opinion has never been used to draw correct conclusions in the history of ever.

ignoring titus's opinion, do you disagree with the take?

I'm not really making any statement other than i have a visceral negative reaction to VCA of the kind that Titus produces.

[Thestatusquo]

scumslips arent real zzz

perspective slips are

not saying it *has* to be that but calling something 'three' misflips does appear like TMI

I was literally joking though, I don't think pine slipped in any real way.

[Thestatusquo]

Also pls answer my question about misty.

[Thestatusquo]

FL having 35 times the amount of posts as DEB really says a lot about society

this could have just said we live in a society tbh

[Thestatusquo]

If this wasn't a commitment i would have replaced out of this game 50 pages ago.

Once again I believe you're not allowed to say stuff like this per the rules.

[Thestatusquo]

hey like for real though, I agree with you on flavor. He's a giant asshole. If I had known flavor was boonskies I would probably have blacklisted them, and this game is another data point suggesting I don't want to play with him ever again, but do you think it would be best for you to just like take a big break of a full day or two just to clear your head? You seem to be stuck on this and maybe a couple of days would let you shake it loose in your head and move forward in the game.

[Thestatusquo]

hey like for real though, I agree with you on flavor. He's a giant asshole. If I had known flavor was boonskies I would probably have blacklisted them, and this game is another data point suggesting I don't want to play with him ever again, but do you think it would be best for you to just like take a big break of a full day or two just to clear your head? You seem to be stuck on this and maybe a couple of days would let you shake it loose in your head and move forward in the game.

cuz you're a sensitive baby too

you can't bait me like you did to ico and norwee.

if you keep responding with bullshit I'll just ignore you.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't understand how you can call my case compelling and then akarin makes like 4 posts and all of a sudden you think she's town. I don't understand that progression at all. None of the points I raise in my case have been dealt with.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not reading that into your prod dodges, I'm reading that from you telling me to fuck off and continually responding to me pushing you by making AtE posts that seem designed to make people stop pressuring you for no reason other than AtE.

I'm reading it into you continually making claims like you're being pushed for lack of activity when that was not the case.

It really really sucks when people treat irl as a scum tactic. Trying to ignore this but honestly it freezes me up in my catchup a lot.

Stuff like this. It's clearly an AtE post designed to stop people from pushing you, and it is misrepping my point against you, which had nothing to do with IRL stuff but rather with me not liking your posts in the game.

I pointed that out and you responded

Fuck off

This is what I'm reading into, and I think its a completely reasonable inference. There were several times where you responded to legitimate arguments against you by attributing the attacks on you as due to lack of activity and then AtE'd to try to push them away. You trying to minimize that right now is also pinging me like crazy because it's basically gaslighting it was so obvious this was what you were doing.

I don't understand how you can call my case compelling and then akarin makes like 4 posts and all of a sudden you think she's town. I don't understand that progression at all. None of the points I raise in my case have been dealt with.

That is true but I liked those recent posts. How do they not affect your read in the slightest?

She did respond to my Ram question, because I apparently misunderstood it. It’s still possible you’re right but is it not possible that you’re looking at these recent posts objectively?

Also, that entire Noraa read is really pinging me because TGP kept presenting it like she’s ever been in a past position to ever misread me.

I would think that Noraa says here, that I think Nancy’s very obviously town but I’m not completely sure because she did play decently in our recent scumgame but she didn’t say anything like that.

I did not say they didn't effect my read in the slightest, I said my issues aren't being dealt with. I don't like the way she interacted with the zor wagon and I don't buy the argument that "Oh tgp claim (who I also don't know the alignment of) has allayed all my fears about zor claim" makes a ton of sense as a claim, because as I pointed out in this sentence, she doesn't know the alignment of tgp either so why would that change her opinion?

The recent posts are fine but I think they're very easily fakeable by a scum player who is being pressured for their life. I don't think they outweigh the things I was scum reading her for.

[Thestatusquo]

Hey, so I just want to say I'm here.

I am going to post today.

My cycle of posting has basically been "ugh, posting around noon is the worst, I'll do this tonight." *something comes up at night* I'm exhausted and think I should stay up to catch up on the game but never catch up, eventually decide I should go to sleep because I'm exhausted and I'll post early in the morning and wake up early. Have trouble sleeping, oversleep. By the time I get to the game again it's like noon.

I don't feel like I've had a good night of sleep in a month.

At the same time I don't really want to replace out.

But I have in the back of my head when the time to post is, keeping thinking I'll do it before then and keep putting it off. Then I panic post around when I need to to not get prodded.

Game gets upsetting, and I say I'll come back to it that night.

Cycle repeats.

I didn't want to even say this because I don't want to deal with it, but I also don't want to get force replaced while I'm catching up or something.

Now I’m sure Shea won’t like this but considering the fact that you sr her for doing this yesterday, don’t you think if she were scum here, one of her buddies would have told her to knock it off? The fact that she made another post similar to the one you sr her for yesterday, makes me think that she’s on her own in this game.

I'm not scum reading her for lack of activity. I think its obvious that she has real genuine things going on in her life which would be true of either alignment. I don't think "scum buddies pushing her to knock it off" is any different from "town pushing you to knock it off" or "team pushing you to knock it off."

If shit really sucks shit really sucks and you're not going to get pushed out of that.

[Thestatusquo]

You trying to minimize that right now is also pinging me like crazy because it's basically gaslighting it was so obvious this was what you were doing.

But that wasn't what I was trying to do at all.

so re:gaslighting: no u

Are you serious?

[Thestatusquo]

Hey, so I just want to say I'm here.

I am going to post today.

My cycle of posting has basically been "ugh, posting around noon is the worst, I'll do this tonight." *something comes up at night* I'm exhausted and think I should stay up to catch up on the game but never catch up, eventually decide I should go to sleep because I'm exhausted and I'll post early in the morning and wake up early. Have trouble sleeping, oversleep. By the time I get to the game again it's like noon.

I don't feel like I've had a good night of sleep in a month.

At the same time I don't really want to replace out.

But I have in the back of my head when the time to post is, keeping thinking I'll do it before then and keep putting it off. Then I panic post around when I need to to not get prodded.

Game gets upsetting, and I say I'll come back to it that night.

Cycle repeats.

I didn't want to even say this because I don't want to deal with it, but I also don't want to get force replaced while I'm catching up or something.

Now I’m sure Shea won’t like this but considering the fact that you sr her for doing this yesterday, don’t you think if she were scum here, one of her buddies would have told her to knock it off? The fact that she made another post similar to the one you sr her for yesterday, makes me think that she’s on her own in this game.

I'm not scum reading her for lack of activity. I think its obvious that she has real genuine things going on in her life which would be true of either alignment. I don't think "scum buddies pushing her to knock it off" is any different from "town pushing you to knock it off" or "team pushing you to knock it off."

If shit really sucks shit really sucks and you're not going to get pushed out of that.

Like I think this logic is really bad in the context of team mafia nancy, don't you think?

[Thestatusquo]

"Oh tgp claim (who I also don't know the alignment of) has allayed all my fears about zor claim" makes a ton of sense as a claim, because as I pointed out in this sentence, she doesn't know the alignment of tgp either so why would that change her opinion?

Because TGP's alignment was

completely irrelevant

A TGP-Zor scumteam wouldn't be trying to pick a 2nd weird name for an ability as some form of defense, and in the more likely case that at least 1 of them is town, then it means town has a weird ability name that I don't think makes sense, which was my whole problem with Zor.

This...is a reasonable point.

[Thestatusquo]

Are you serious?

Completely, I wanted to just say "no u" but felt like that'd seem too much like a joke when it's not, really.

Then I think you are either lying or completely lack self awareness.

[Thestatusquo]

@Shea, I’m not at all suggesting that the recent posts clear her but are enough for me to doubt my sr on her. She is sounding really townie today and I like that better than anything I’ve seen from TGP all game.

His extreme 180s on FL also really bother me as well. One post, FL’s a strong gut tr, the next he’s obvscum and then Johnny who he claimed to have checked with before unvoting me and has never revealed what Johnny’s actual verdict was - said that FL was town and once again - BOOM! yet another flipflop on him.

Town doesn’t usually have that kind of progression on a slot. It’s hard to believe his read on FL is real.

Can you run down the case on TGP for me from your perspective? It's another slot I've kind of lost track of.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean literally you're telling me what my obvious motives were for previous posts when that wasn't actually my motive and just repeatedly telling me it obviously was.

I am conceding the possibility that you lack self awareness here but reducing every attack against you to "I wish people would stop attacking me for being inactive" when none of them were about that is definitionally misrepresenting the point and you definitely were doing AtE whether or not it was genuine (again, I believe it was!) but what I find scummy is using that AtE repeatedly as a response to people attacking you. Which you did. Undeniably. I don't know how you can say you didn't.

[Thestatusquo]

Hey, so I just want to say I'm here.

I am going to post today.

My cycle of posting has basically been "ugh, posting around noon is the worst, I'll do this tonight." *something comes up at night* I'm exhausted and think I should stay up to catch up on the game but never catch up, eventually decide I should go to sleep because I'm exhausted and I'll post early in the morning and wake up early. Have trouble sleeping, oversleep. By the time I get to the game again it's like noon.

I don't feel like I've had a good night of sleep in a month.

At the same time I don't really want to replace out.

But I have in the back of my head when the time to post is, keeping thinking I'll do it before then and keep putting it off. Then I panic post around when I need to to not get prodded.

Game gets upsetting, and I say I'll come back to it that night.

Cycle repeats.

I didn't want to even say this because I don't want to deal with it, but I also don't want to get force replaced while I'm catching up or something.

Now I’m sure Shea won’t like this but considering the fact that you sr her for doing this yesterday, don’t you think if she were scum here, one of her buddies would have told her to knock it off? The fact that she made another post similar to the one you sr her for yesterday, makes me think that she’s on her own in this game.

I'm not scum reading her for lack of activity. I think its obvious that she has real genuine things going on in her life which would be true of either alignment. I don't think "scum buddies pushing her to knock it off" is any different from "town pushing you to knock it off" or "team pushing you to knock it off."

If shit really sucks shit really sucks and you're not going to get pushed out of that.

If I were scum here and I was getting sr for doing a specific thing, why wouldn’t my buddies encourage me to stop doing whatever that was?

Like how does it help her to continue to do this, when she had every reason to expect you to jump on her for it?

Because I think her inactivity is real, and NAI. And why wouldn't her teammates do the same thing as well? Like your point was you think she's playing like she's alone here which means you think shes more likely town. My response to that is even town isn't alone in team mafai.

[Thestatusquo]

You haven't, but you kept trying to push them away by saying "man I wish people would stop attacking me for IRL stuff" from my POV. Even if you don't think thats what you were trying to do its completely bonkers to me that you don't even think thats a reasonable way to interpret them, especially when you respond to people clarifying that they are explicitly not attacking you for OOG stuff by telling them to fuck off.

[Thestatusquo]

Like the last thing I ever want to do is attack someone for having problems IRL or with mental health when I suffer from clinical anxiety and depression myself and have at times had those things manifest in mafia games in awful ways but at the same time I can't just let someone who I think is scum not interact with the thread for two whole days without trying to push them so it felt like you were deliberately trying to play on my emotions there.

[Thestatusquo]

The one thing I don’t understand is why Norwee isn’t hard tr Ram because he’s extremely obvious town here.

I can go over Ramcius's ISO to see if he's as obvious town as you claim.
My main problem is that i've found their takes incredibly lazy so far, and they don't seem to do much. It's like a real Dunnstral kind of style that i always have a problem with.

You said something similar about akarin to. Something to effect of "they have original thoughts." and this made them town.

So I guess my question is this: Why do you think scum cant have original thoughts and town can't have lazy ones?

I just don't like this line of logic because it will never catch good scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I think that good scum will beat you every time if you use that logic and you will constantly elim bad town.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok so the thing you just said I agree with, but I think that is very different from saying someone is taking "lazy" positions or "original" positions as alignment indicative.

[Thestatusquo]

I am not a huge fan of JJH just starting to read the game right now. As I mentioned earlier my experience is that teams tend to read/stay current with their teams town games and not necessarily with their scum games so JJH starting a read like this doesn't feel great because it seems to me that it would be more indicative of scum being like "hey I'm being wagoned I need some help" more so than town who would likely have had their team reading the game the whole time.

Why wasn't JJH reading your game the whole time? Why wasn't the rest of your team?

[Thestatusquo]

JJH replaced into my team after ABR screwed up the Large Normal.

Ah this makes much more sense to me, then.

[Thestatusquo]

I haven't gotten to read yet but will later tonight, just wanted to pop in.

Anyone want to give me a brief spark notes of the day so far.

[Thestatusquo]

I haven't gotten to read yet but will later tonight, just wanted to pop in.

Anyone want to give me a brief spark notes of the day so far.

We're doing a mass claim to get Pine to out whatever it is they want to claim. But it requires you and MistyX to claim first.
So can you do it?

Tanjiro Kamado Voice of the Empire

[Thestatusquo]

Are you claiming VT?

I don't know what else you could possibly think my post means?

[Thestatusquo]

Are you claiming VT?

I don't know what else you could possibly think my post means?

Yeah i know.
Misty is last unclaimed.

Did I miss pine claim?

[Thestatusquo]

My PoE is {ramcius, pine, norwee, FL}

I think misty's plan makes sense, although I don't necessarily think it should be directed by vote. If misty is telling the town I'd much rather she use it as a vig shot than as an elim I think.

[Thestatusquo]

My PoE is {ramcius, pine, norwee, FL}

I think misty's plan makes sense, although I don't necessarily think it should be directed by vote. If misty is telling the town I'd much rather she use it as a vig shot than as an elim I think.

Pine just hardclaimed and that would mean FL couldn’t have killed molla.

I am aware. I'm not in love with the claim because scum team definitely has some power besides one shot strongman to balance the double joat neighborizer 1 shot vig and misty's claim. JK would make a lot of sense for scum to have.

I'm not sure what the second part means to you but there's more than one person on a scum team.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would scum claim dr and then kill the person they were claiming they would doc protect?

[Thestatusquo]

If I'm misunderstanding you I apologize but it seems like you're saying that scum FL would kill the person they said they would doc protect if they're fake claiming and that doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. I'm simply giving a PoE of where I think scum can be.

I think you are town.
I think akarin is pretty much confirmed town.


This gives me the PoE I gave. Of that list of people I think the order of likelihood is something like pine = norwee > FL > Ramcius.

[Thestatusquo]

I guess my paranoia is that we’re extremely tpr heavy based off of claims. 2 town Joats, I town 1 shot vig, I town venge.

Ico flipped vt. I’m vt and I think you and Ram also claimed vt. I forget what Norwee claimed?

This is my problem with pine's claim.

[Thestatusquo]

To a lesser extent my paranoia about misty too, but a) I was town reading misty way more than I was town reading pine and b) this is a bit of a ballsy gambit for scum misty to pull and I don't buy it.

[Thestatusquo]

I've designed and ran and played many games without town protective roles? Not to mention the fact that the joats had protective modes as well. This doesn't not sound like an intellectually honest argument.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't understand why we think that this setup would be based on last years? That seems like a very shitty way to design a setup and I would never do it as a mod, so I don't know why that's the first place we're going here.

[Thestatusquo]

You're joking right? I made a huge case yesterday and pushed the crap out of it while making like 3 or 4 different ISO dives. What in the hell.

[Thestatusquo]

I wasn't fence sitty on you I actively defended you when you were being voted. If I'm scum trying to fade you there I could have easily done so by adding to the momentum instead of actively arguing against it.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything norwee said about Pine. If pine is scum the last scum is likely fl. I don't understand the "exactly one scum in fl and pine" because to me they make a lot of sense as buddies.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't give a crap Scott comparing this game to last year.

That's literally just bad game design for exactly this reason and I refuse to believe that 5 list mods designed a setup by looking at least year's and bring like ok let's just do this again but slightly different.

[Thestatusquo]

*about

Lol phone posting

[Thestatusquo]

Wow apparently there are just like 6 typos in that post. Go me.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything norwee said about Pine. If pine is scum the last scum is likely fl. I don't understand the "exactly one scum in fl and pine" because to me they make a lot of sense as buddies.

The major problem with that is that both molla kill + town joat claim look just awful here for FL. If you read CoD, you’d know I had a soft guilty on him in that game and he came up with this extremely complex brilliant fakeclaim and that wasn’t a TM game, so you’re telling me that FL wouldn’t make more of an effort to fakeclaim something more believable than 3rd town joat?

I think the second thing is entirely nonsense. Also I think FL is perfectly capable of shooting molla. Why do you think hes not?

[Thestatusquo]

I should explain why I think its nonsense. It's just straight up WIFOM. It answers itself. "Why would scum player do X?" is always answered with "because of literally this argument."

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything norwee said about Pine. If pine is scum the last scum is likely fl. I don't understand the "exactly one scum in fl and pine" because to me they make a lot of sense as buddies.

The major problem with that is that both molla kill + town joat claim look just awful here for FL. If you read CoD, you’d know I had a soft guilty on him in that game and he came up with this extremely complex brilliant fakeclaim and that wasn’t a TM game, so you’re telling me that FL wouldn’t make more of an effort to fakeclaim something more believable than 3rd town joat?

I think the second thing is entirely nonsense. Also I think FL is perfectly capable of shooting molla. Why do you think hes not?

Because 3rd town joat has to be the worst possible fakeclaim to make here and that’s why I think it’s more likely true than not because scum!FL would come up with something better, because pretty much anything is more believable than 3rd town joat, which is why it’s probably true and the joats are weak, so I don’t understand why it’s not actually possible either?

And why is that “nonsense”? People take TM way more seriously than regular games and I think that’s definitely true for FL, so I think he’d come up with something more believable as scum.

I explained. I think its completely WIFOM. "Why would town player do X." Well, you just said you think it makes him town, so that's a pretty compelling reason for scum to do X. Definitionally WIFOM.

You didn't answer the molla thing.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not even trying to say FL is scum necessarily, I'm just saying FL and Pine is a very plausible pairing to me. Just look at their associatives.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm specifically trying to debunk the notion that FL and pine can't be scum together because I think that's literally handing scum!FL the game and I think that if Pine is scum FL is the most likely buddy.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with everything norwee said about Pine. If pine is scum the last scum is likely fl. I don't understand the "exactly one scum in fl and pine" because to me they make a lot of sense as buddies.

The major problem with that is that both molla kill + town joat claim look just awful here for FL. If you read CoD, you’d know I had a soft guilty on him in that game and he came up with this extremely complex brilliant fakeclaim and that wasn’t a TM game, so you’re telling me that FL wouldn’t make more of an effort to fakeclaim something more believable than 3rd town joat?

I think the second thing is entirely nonsense. Also I think FL is perfectly capable of shooting molla. Why do you think hes not?

Because 3rd town joat has to be the worst possible fakeclaim to make here and that’s why I think it’s more likely true than not because scum!FL would come up with something better, because pretty much anything is more believable than 3rd town joat, which is why it’s probably true and the joats are weak, so I don’t understand why it’s not actually possible either?

And why is that “nonsense”? People take TM way more seriously than regular games and I think that’s definitely true for FL, so I think he’d come up with something more believable as scum.

I explained. I think its completely WIFOM. "Why would town player do X." Well, you just said you think it makes him town, so that's a pretty compelling reason for scum to do X. Definitionally WIFOM.

You didn't answer the molla thing.

Because scum!FL I would have expected to catch that molla crumb so his flip looks really terrible for him with that claim.

I...don't really think I agree with this logic.

[Thestatusquo]

For me today just boils down to this: I think JK makes much more sense as a scum claim than a town claim in this game and I think pine has done very little to indicate he's town.

I don't like his response of "THINK I'M THE ONLY TOWN PROTECTIVE POWER" as if that clears him when a) It's not true there are two town claimed/flipped roles with protective abilities and b) setups get run without town protective all the time.

Hell, akarin just finished playing a game I ran without a real town protective role.

[Thestatusquo]

Crumbing a future JOAT claim when you knew there was likely 1 JOAT (Zoraster) and a second one (Molla) was not confirmed until he crumbed himself. Does make sense for scum!FL to do.

But then killing molla? How isn’t that suicide? Like I suppose it’s possible but it’s just such terrible play for him.

You're literally making the argument that it isn't suicide right now by saying it clears him. Not so terrible a play if it clears you.

WIFOM. Come on, Nancy, you have to know this is all WIFOM.

[Thestatusquo]

Can I just say, I

really

think we should end our last day with eliminating Misty first and letting her vig the consensus scum read?

Misty is actually a pretty high town read for me at this point, but I initially didn't like her interactions with DEB and I don't want this to be the kind of claim scum can get away with gambitting and then never getting called on.

Maybe it's paranoid, but if we do it last there's no cost and it removes one possible losing scenario.

I'm mind melding with akarin a bit here. I also think it's just correct play wrt a claimed vengeful generally speaking.

[Thestatusquo]

Crumbing a future JOAT claim when you knew there was likely 1 JOAT (Zoraster) and a second one (Molla) was not confirmed until he crumbed himself. Does make sense for scum!FL to do.

But then killing molla? How isn’t that suicide? Like I suppose it’s possible but it’s just such terrible play for him.

You're literally making the argument that it isn't suicide right now by saying it clears him. Not so terrible a play if it clears you.

WIFOM. Come on, Nancy, you have to know this is all WIFOM.

Well we’ll see.

I mean, it's WIFOM regardless of the particular facts in this case. That's kind of what WIFOM means.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean, I think the strongest reason to think FL is scum is pine associatives and given that we havent flipped pine yet I dont want to put the cart before the horse. As long as youre open to FL possibly being scum if pine flips scum then we gucci here.

[Thestatusquo]

Her.

[Thestatusquo]

I have intent to vote pine. I just don't see a lot of reason to do it right now. Are we trying to speed through the day for some reason?

[Thestatusquo]

I think its both but I think FL is way more likely to be scum if pine is scum and not necessarily the other way around.

[Thestatusquo]

I think its both but I think FL is way more likely to be scum if pine is scum and not necessarily the other way around.

So if that's not the team, you think that
scum!Pine-town!Flavor is more likely than town!Pine-scum!Flavor?

Why?

Because that's exactly the debate I'm having, I think I need to reread, but I'm right now coming to the opposite conclusion.

Because I think pine has been scummy independent of associatives, whereas I don't think the same thing is true for FL.

[Thestatusquo]

I think my biggest problem with FL is, as you pointed out, his interactions with pine are just horrendous.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think norwee is the yeet today when I don't think anything about pine's claim is believable. I think misty's point about the strongman is particularly important.

VOTE: pine

[Thestatusquo]

Wait i thought you said TGP. My bad.

Why TSQ?

Why not? You have him as null, I don't think others have strong feelings towards him either, so perfect consensus flip

Speaking of TGP, you literally hammered him after some posturing, so again, you have no right to complain

You came in here, said two things about me that weren't true, then when called out on them had no response and now you're here like "TSQ will be the consensus flip" when no one agreed with your BS on me. This is getting really tedious.

[Thestatusquo]

Like honestly the only position ramcius has had basically all game is OMGUS that I am scum with basically no reasoning whatsoever that its really making me doubt that he cares who the scum is. Who is my buddy if I'm scum? Why do I make sense as a partner with DEB? What scummy things have I done? Why are the town reads on me by other players in this game incorrect? Your primary argument right now seems to be that I'm a townie null lean for a bunch of people so therefore I should be eliminated?

That doesn't make me think you're town, bud. It's like you latched on to a weird OMGUS read day 1 and haven't reevaluated or tried to find any other scum once the whole game.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean, I can just leave it to the rest of the town to do their own research on what you're saying but at a minimum.

1) It's not true that I didn't try to engage you day 1. I asked you repeatedly for any reads on anyone in the game. I asked you repeatedly to tell me why you thought things were NAI. You continually refused to answer.
2) It's not true that I didn't try to push you. I repeatedly pushed you. So much so that TGP at one point literally told me to drop it and I refused.
3) I don't remember you asking me for cheetory's read on you, that must have gotten lost in the shuffle.
4) I didn't fence sit on zor.
5) I didn't fence sit on you, I actively defended you because the reason for my scum read on you, as explained in the literal post you're quoting, was that you didn't seem to be trying to find scum. At the beginning of day 2 you did things that I thought actually could be scum hunting even though I didn't agree with your conclusions, so I was happy to focus my attention elsewhere. That's not fence sitting, that's a progression of a fucking read. Of course I didn't lock town you because you had just done the bare minimum.
6) You did misrep me day 1. You're continuing to do it literally right now by quoting a post where I'm literally defending you from two people who are voting you and trying to suggest its somehow me trying to get you faded.

This push is fucking nonsense.

[Thestatusquo]

What are your other positions this game buddy because to me it literally just looks like you locked in on "tsq scum because he's pushing me" day 1 and you haven't really tried to do a single other thing this game.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, can't help but notice you're jumping on me and norwee right when I try to steer the discussion back to pine.

I can't help but notice looking at your ISO right now that you only mention DEB like 3 total times before he flipped and every single one of those times is you going "hmmm I wonder if DEB will hammer."

[Thestatusquo]

The odd/evens thing only works if we use misty's venge today, right?

[Thestatusquo]

lol

[Thestatusquo]

I mean besides the global god damned pandemic I'm doing ok.

[Thestatusquo]

https://cookieandkate.com/west-african-peanut-soup/

gunna make this for dinner tonight and I'm kinda excited about it.

[Thestatusquo]

oh nooo

[Thestatusquo]

it might be really good with cashew butter. I love cashews.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine who has been saying all game that I'm town and has called several of his interactions with me "hard town" now comes in with the "TSQ is scum solve" when his ass is on the line and I'm pushing him.

Shocking, honestly.

[Thestatusquo]

I can't help but notice who IS the most suspected slot by ico tho.

[Thestatusquo]

And when have you ever known me to kill someone who was openly suspicious of me? That's not my style.

I don't think I've ever played with you before, but I do know that I don't believe in listening to people tell me about their own meta and that you've been around long enough to know that the whole "I don't do that as scum!" defense is garbage.

[Thestatusquo]

all of norwee/Pine/FL are wasting their votes currently

we aren't yeeting in Norwee/Pine rn

TGP and DEB... a vote at this stage of the game would go a long way ya know

Also this was his last post so...

Ya know

Keep being scum, I guess

He still said you were scum. He just thought that TGP was the better lim.

[Thestatusquo]

You've said I'm town the literal whole game, strongly at several points, but now I'm scum because...you still haven't given any reasons. You've just attacked norwee and suggested I'm norwees buddy with no rationale.

This corresponds to me finding your claim dubious and literally no other shift. You can keep shading me, but you haven't given a single reason why I'm scum that I even need to argue against and given that I think you're scum I'm not really inclined to engage you much more than I am here.

[Thestatusquo]

Hm, me and Creature think that best course of action is protect Akarin with Mistyx and flip TSQ

They’ve changed their read on Norwee?

We aren't really sure on Norwee, but TSQ getting no pressure for his no presence is a red flag, why scum let him be?

Another shade post that isn't based on reality in any way.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't think its a fair assessment of my play that I duck in and out at all.

[Thestatusquo]

"the most people willing to flip someone" tends to actually not be scum for what its worth, because uhhh scum is willing to flip them?

[Thestatusquo]

like this is classic. Ramcius has no reasons why I'm scum, so he's just trying to pretend that enough people don't think I'm lock town and that this is somehow a reason to flip someone. It ain't.

[Thestatusquo]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

Norwee>Nancy>Mystix>FL>TSQ> Pine

that's what scumputer says, from most likely to least likely to be scum based on VCA

P-edit: who even thinks that you're lock town?

I'm not saying people think I'm lock town. Another misrep.

So your own VCA suggests I'm like second least likely to be scum and you're just ignoring it? Cool.

[Thestatusquo]

Like how do you ignore the part of the post that says "you have no reason to think I'm scum" and then laser in on the term "lock town" and then try to use that word choice to discredit me instead of engaging with me in good faith?

[Thestatusquo]

Nancy still focusing on the misread of her rather than the salient facts. So Town.

DGB’s scumputer algorithm is based on votes, Nancy, and your tendency to emotionally vote hop all over the place rather than sticking to solid and rational solving is pinging it. It is structurally bad at reading you.

I’m contrast, Shea is an old school player who played the game when VCA was an extremely dangerous tool, exactly because of people like DGB. You’ll notice that FL, Shea, and I are all lowest on DGB’s list? It’s a structural and methodological difference.

What? VCA was never dangerous. It's always been bullshit.

[Thestatusquo]

TL;DR - it’s a case on Shea calling out inconsistencies, particularly how his solve is FL/Pine, but spent the last page attacking and discrediting Ramcius

I am not allowed to think I could be wrong or to not be certain? This is such a scum argument. Town are way more likely to express doubt or be inconsistent in their pushes then scum are because we do not have full information. This leads to scum being way more consistent than town in their pushes generally speaking.

I think your claim is bad. I think FL is your most likely partner if you flip scum. But I am not fallible. If you end up flipping town I think FL becomes way less likely to be scum. If you flip scum its possible FL is not your buddy. In fact, I have never expressed certainty on a solve because literally I would never do that as either alignment?

I know you know this. This is another completely disingenuous argument on your part.

[Thestatusquo]

Like my thinking is pretty much right now: Pines claim is fake, in addition to the other scummy ways that pine has played this makes me think pine is scum. If you look at pines play FL is his most likely partner so that's where I'm at.

I'm not getting to step two yet, though. I've specifically argued against flipping FL today because I think his alignment is much more contingent on yours than the other way around, which is in direct contradiction to your claim that you fl is "my solve" which is not even remotely close to what I've argued today.

[Thestatusquo]

Nancy still focusing on the misread of her rather than the salient facts. So Town.

DGB’s scumputer algorithm is based on votes, Nancy, and your tendency to emotionally vote hop all over the place rather than sticking to solid and rational solving is pinging it. It is structurally bad at reading you.

I’m contrast, Shea is an old school player who played the game when VCA was an extremely dangerous tool, exactly because of people like DGB. You’ll notice that FL, Shea, and I are all lowest on DGB’s list? It’s a structural and methodological difference.

What? VCA was never dangerous. It's always been bullshit.

Then why you tried to clear yourself just now by pointing out that you second last on DGB's VCA?

Another misrep. I'm not trying to clear myself, just pointing out that your push lacks internal consistency. You keep saying I'm scum in spite of the arguments that you yourself are making.

I almost added "VCA is trash" to my original point but honestly I expected you to be able to understand the nuanced difference between me arguing that you're attacking me when the things you're talking about suggest I'm clear vs me saying that it clears me. I'd never suggest the latter but I'm asking you either to be more intellectually honest if you're scum or reevaluate if you're town and put any weight in that garbage.

[Thestatusquo]

My meta is that I try to play exactly the same way as scum and town which is what everyone should do but apparently thats like not a thing anymore on this site.

[Thestatusquo]

i think "isn't liking" is a stretch to rule buddies out

I agree. While Ram’s conclusion definitely seems plausible, I could also see it as just being too easy and finding out the actual scumteam is rarely that cut and dried. What I probably do agree with Ram is that all scum is likely in those 4. Why couldn’t we possibly have a Pine/Shea team, an FL/Norwee team or an FL/Shea team? I don’t think we can rule either of those out. Out of those 4, the only the only team that I see as implausible is a Pine/Norwee team.

So Pine/FL, Pine/Shea, FL/Shea, Norwee/Shea and FL/Norwee are still possiblities. My team currently leans to FL/Pine. FL mostly for the over the top AtE, emotional manipulation, threats, etic. Scum!FL also threw a rage-induced fit in CoD, when he didn’t get his way and his push on me earlier would fit his pattern of antagonizing me after he pocketed me in that game. So that’s why I can’t rule out a possible FL/Norwee team because if Norwee flips scum, FL wouldn’t be cleared by that because Norwee made it extremely clear, he isn’t interested in any flip today other than Pine’s. So they’re actually more confident on FL than Pine but that’s against the remainder of the playerlist consensus.

3 out of 5 teams involve TSQ, so flipping him is best way to solve this. Don't you agree with this?

But only if it’s not in FL/Pine which is still possible. My team isn’t even currently sr Shea.

Why your team TR TSQ?

Koba wasn’t, they had a hard sr on them, Math is. Math is disagreeing with Titus’ VCA. Shea is a difficult slot to parse if you rely on meta at all because I have none on him.

Pretty sure I've played with mathblade though, definitely IRL, not sure about forum.

[Thestatusquo]

this is literally the best argument you have. People say I'm town and then you desperately try to suggest that their town reads should be null reads and then you say things like "everyone is null reading shea so he's a good consensus flip" but both norwee and nancy didn't say town, they said null.

It's just so incredibly disingenuous.

[Thestatusquo]

Flip that "didn't say null, they said town"

[Thestatusquo]

Koba wasn’t, they had a hard sr on them, Math is. Math is disagreeing with Titus’ VCA. Shea is a difficult slot to parse if you rely on meta at all because I have none on him.

All I can see is null, I don't see a reason for a TR from this

Math tr him I think. Koba hard sr him. No one else has said much about him.

Looked at your team. Pooky played with me in the last 2 months in stuff I'm listening to.

[Thestatusquo]

Ram why are you set on eliming in me/tsq if you can only see two possibilities and one of them is Pine/FL.
If it comes down to that kind of process of elimination, why take the path that is currently harder.
Why favour any path at all?

JJH would like to state that he is very much of the opinion that this is a pine/ram scumteam right now. He thinks it makes sense that ram is now pushing TSQ rather than me, norwe, since he's assuming i will go hard on Pine/FL
Also, all this focus on pairs is distracting from how Pine has lied about his role PM and is objectively scum no matter who else is.

This is why pine is so focused on mischaracterizing me as saying I've been pushing a "Team solve" when in fact my argument is and always has been that pines claim makes no sense and that I think FL is his most likely buddy but that there are many things that could make me reevaluate the second part.

His insistence that the fact that I'm not rigidly pushing pine/fl and in fact see other possibilities is truly bizarre to me.

[Thestatusquo]

DGB is not a he fwiw.

[Thestatusquo]

VCA is usually a bunch of shaite anyways. And i've never seen him solve using that metric before. Only Titus.

SHE. DGB like Tweetie are female.

I believe it is actually the preferred pronoun fwiw.

[Thestatusquo]

... Ramicus isn't even sure TSQ flips town, he's framing TSQ as more of a consensus null here.
Shouldn't Ramcius be interested in flipping scum or something.
...

This is the huge thing that's bothering me about ramcius's play towards me today. He doesn't seem to be trying to find scum, he seems to be trying to find a slot which no one will significantly object to flipping (me).

Thats like...textbook scum behavior trying to setup a misfade. Find the slot that's not being defended by anyone and then go after them. He doesn't have any reasoning why I'm scum, his reasoning is that I'm not being strongly town read by other people.

That's...What? That's not how you find scum. That's not even pretending to be an attempt to find scum.

[Thestatusquo]

... Ramicus isn't even sure TSQ flips town, he's framing TSQ as more of a consensus null here.
Shouldn't Ramcius be interested in flipping scum or something.
...

This is the huge thing that's bothering me about ramcius's play towards me today. He doesn't seem to be trying to find scum, he seems to be trying to find a slot which no one will significantly object to flipping (me).

Thats like...textbook scum behavior trying to setup a misfade. Find the slot that's not being defended by anyone and then go after them. He doesn't have any reasoning why I'm scum, his reasoning is that I'm not being strongly town read by other people.

That's...What? That's not how you find scum. That's not even pretending to be an attempt to find scum.

No, my reason is PoE. Give me a reason to TR you, I don't ask much

You're asking me to go back and go through all the things I've done that I think are town motivated? That's stupid and I'm not going to do that. Such lists are biased and not useful and youre definitely just going to say "I think all of that is null" when I do, so I don't know what the point of this would be.

You keep saying you have a PoE that includes 4 people you only seem willing to go after me and Norwee. Curious.

[Thestatusquo]

Every single thing I say you're going to say "no you could do that as scum" and that's mostly true, so its a useless endeavor. I would say the balance of the things I've done have a motivation of finding scum and scum hunting if you drill down into them, but you're obviously not going to agree with that so I'm just not even going to try.

It's kind of frustrating but it is what it is.

[Thestatusquo]

Also, updated scumputer results for only Pine/FL/Norwee/TSQ are Norwee>TSQ>FL>Pine

DGB said that scumputer isn't a solve and shouldn't be threated as such, it shouldn't change reads more than 10-15%

Lastly, DGB pointed out that on TGP wagon only potential scum is Norwee, and Norwee was main push behind zor wagon too

Very convenient that when called out on this not matching your positions in the game it suddenly switched to match them exactly. Curious.

[Thestatusquo]

Norwee>TSQ>FL>Pine

Norwee>FL>TSQ> Pine

This is comical. Hilarious that since we're pushing me and you keep trying to suggest that I'm a consensus flip I just magically swapped places with FL in the analysis. Nice update.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, so the analysis has now changed when nothing has changed to match the analysis, and happens to have changed in a way to support your narrative exactly, again with literally no additional input. There have been no vote changes since you posted the original one.

So what did it change based off of?

[Thestatusquo]

This is what I mean by the disingenuous arguments you're just consistently making. Nothing has changed that would change vote count analysis, and yet somehow the analysis has magically changed to match your narrative.

The only conclusion I can draw is you literally just changed it because you didn't like that people were pointing out that you shouldn't be pushing me based off of it.

[Thestatusquo]

How does that change the vote count analysis of the votes of other people?

[Thestatusquo]

I think theres some chance its real, I think there's a very good chance in that case that it isn't town.

[Thestatusquo]

What does Jingle think specifically about Pine being the only ungated role in the setup?
And whether there are any implications of this.
And why Jingle hasn't acknowledged this as a weakness of the claim himself

JJH doesn't really see Jingle coming up with that bad point about the strongman referencing roleblocking when that's what the normal strongman role PM looks like.
It's phrased exactly the same way in the previous untrod tripod vs anime game. That's literally just how strongman role PMs look; it doesn't imply anything about the setup.
and Pine should know that and Jingle definitely knows that.

How many times do I have to tell you to shut the actual fuck up?

Asked and answered. Repeatedly.

Ok out of game this is completely unacceptable and toxic and honestly you should be ashamed as a moderator of this fucking site that you play this way. This is a game of mafia and you're not allowed to respond to people this way, its fucking unacceptable. It breaks all the rules of the site and the game that we're playing a fucking game.

I hate this shit. Why can't people like you and FL play this game like a game and not be toxic pieces of shit to people? I'm fucking serious. Completely out of game, as a human being, regardless of my alignment and your alignment do you think this is a fucking fun way to play mafia? Do you think its enjoyable to read endless pages of FL calling people stupid or you saying things like "shut the fuck up" repeatedly?

It's not. It's bullshit. It's terrible. It makes me never want to play mafia with you ever again. It drags the game down to hell and makes it unfun and horrible to interact with for everyone.

There's room for some amount of being rude and condescension in mafia but your entire way of interacting with people pushing you is to tell them to fuck off and honestly I don't think that's within the rules of the game and I wish you would stop doing it.

This is not alignment related. I don't think this speaks to your alignment. I think it speaks to you being a miserable person to play forum mafia with, and I am begging you to reconsider how you approach people in this game and every other game you play. It's horrifying.

There is literally nothing wrong with what norwee is doing as either alignment. As town he's going after someone he thinks in scum in a totally normal way, and as scum he's going for a miselim in a totally normal way.

This is the game you signed up to play. If you can't do it without being a raging fucking dickbag for no reason, you shouldn't play mafia. Full stop. And frankly its really making me doubt your temperament as a mod.

[Thestatusquo]

There's literally nothing wrong with what norwee is doing as either alignment. They are making arguments and playing to their win condition. You trying this psychological condescension on them is the problem regardless of if they're scum or town and regardless of if they're right or wrong. They're just playing mafia. You know, the game you signed up to play?

[Thestatusquo]

That is also bad. But I would say the way norwee has generally posted that has been the exception rather than the rule.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, my blacklist will have maybe 3 or 4 new names after this game.

[Thestatusquo]

norwee isnt one of them. I think he's shown a reasonable amount of patience dealing with FL goading him repeatedly and Pine literally coming in and telling him to shut the fuck up repeatedly.

[Thestatusquo]

But I've kind of just had it with pine interacting with everyone by ridiculing them personally and then just responding to them by saying "didn't I already tell you to shut the fuck up."

It's literally against the rules of the game and I wish the mod would do something about it and honestly I'm kind of at the end of my rope with this game because mafia is meant to be a fun game that yeah tempers can run a little hot in but we're so far above even that right now that its really hard to fucking play.

[Thestatusquo]

And FLs "I'M QUITTING THE GAME YOU ARE ALL SO STUPID I DONT CARE" performative bullshit is NAI for him but its definitely indicative of me hating the game I'm playing in.

It reminds me of the RC style of play like yeah congrats you won your game of forum mafia by making sure not a single other person in it had fun in any way because of your toxic bullshit.

And I hate it. And I hate this game. And I'm just so sick of it.

This is a fucking GAME people.

[Thestatusquo]

I should not have brought up the notion that Pine didn't take his medication in pagea earlier, but i think that speaks more to my lack of self-control when i feel unfairly treated since i thought i brought up many good points in favour of my solve and then the response i get is quote: "Can you shut the fuck up".

Yes making light of mental health issues is shitty and as a person who takes medication I was really hurt personally by you doing that. Please don't do it again.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine is caught scum and he's making the arguments he has to make. Shrug.

[Thestatusquo]

Which is precisely why you claimed a role like the one you did, even if it doesn't make any sense. You've been scummy this whole game, have done nothing to find scum the whole game, and now you're in a position where you need to not die so you claimed a role that would keep you alive one more day. The problem is that it's an obvious fake claim. Like again, I get it, you're saying the things you need to say but come on dude.

[Thestatusquo]

Good players can make mistakes. "Did a bad thing so they are town because they are so good" is a bad argument and you know it. I think either you claimed your real role as scum or you just didn't notice that everything else was x shot.

I'm not sold on FL being your partner, I think its the most likely scenario. Again, because good players can make mistakes.

Your "multi page solve" was today, while you were under immense pressure. Before then you had shown absolutely no interest in trying to case the game.

And your multi page solve is a lot of words to say "the conf town players are conf town and the non-me and FL players are in the PoE" essentially.

[Thestatusquo]

Did anyone came up with good explanation for a strongman, if there is only 2 shots of doc? Or even if there one shot of doc, if FL is scum too as some people claims

People keep talking about this as if its a powerful strongman. It's one shot.

[Thestatusquo]

@Nancy I will let you think for yourself. But i just want to say a little bit.

Basically i just have two questions for you.

What would you expect Pine to do in the case of a TSQ townflip?
Why would this be useful at all for solving the game?

I would think then you’re probably right, especially if you’re jk’d and a kill still happens.

But my point is a vt elim is safer if you agree that a DEB strongman ruies out a Pine/FL team.

I still don't agree with that. We had this argument before and I thought you agreed that ruling out that team was a bad idea. I can go over it again if you want.

[Thestatusquo]

Why is it safer to elim a VT over Pine right now when we think Pine has the highest chance individually of flipping scum.

Who is Pine’s buddy because if it’s FL, then DEB strongman means we have a broken setup?

What? You're going to have to run that one by me again.

[Thestatusquo]

Pines buddy is plausibly FL or ramcius.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine's buddy is Ram. jjh927 specifically told me to say that the deb strongman does not rule out a Pine/FL team. It indicates with some fairly weak setup spec that it's not Pine/FL, but it's not conclusive owing to this being weak setup spec

A strongman implies either a town doc or roleblocker of some sort and so far all we have in that regard is a 1 shot doc flip, which makes no sense especially when you check out last year’s setup. If you’re arguing a Pine/FL team then you’re pretty much arguing that scum would have a 1 shot strongman counterbalanced by only a 1 shot doc and as a game designer yourself, I don’t understand how you wouldn’t see that as unbalanced?

Why would it be unbalanced if it doesn't do very much? You can't speculate on balance overall without knowing the scum roles. 1 shot strong man is a role that is totally fine as a red herring if both town and scum don't have a ton of power, like this setup.

Not every role has to have a counter role. In fact, I think its pretty lazy setup design to do that. It's not how I approach the games I make at all.

[Thestatusquo]

Jingle, who pine keeps referencing, just backup modded/reviewed among us which had no real protective role for town, for instance. I think that getting into this game of "this role means x role must be in the game." is a really dangerous thing to do as town if the mod is at all competent.

[Thestatusquo]

Pine's buddy is Ram. jjh927 specifically told me to say that the deb strongman does not rule out a Pine/FL team. It indicates with some fairly weak setup spec that it's not Pine/FL, but it's not conclusive owing to this being weak setup spec

I do not believe JJH endorsed that. Full stop.

That’s why my team is reacessing now because once I explained to Math about the strongman, he realized a you/FL team along with a DEB strongman and no other counterbalancing TPR roles, makes absolutely no sense with just a 1 shot doc and Shea has modded games so I don’t understand how he can honestly believe this.

I've modded games with gunsmith with no guns in them. Shrug.

[Thestatusquo]

because good setup design means players can't figure out which roles are or are not in the game based on flips. I personally like things like that in games I design. I've definitely had godfathers with no investigative roles too.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: no elim

Let's get back to odd numbers, I doubt we'll achieve anything this day phase anyway

i agree

VOTE: mistyx

i think this is roughly 0% to happen.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I tend to treat setup spec mostly as a red herring, because as a mod I design games that can't be solved by setup spec because that's what good setups look like. I know jingle knows this, because he's been involved in designing games with me, so its wild to me to hear him claim that somehow pine is cleared by mech spec when I know for a fact that in no game he designed would that be true.

[Thestatusquo]

This is what i'm talking about when I say I think pine has been making disingenuous arguments.

[Thestatusquo]

Mmmmm I don’t hate that reasoning, Nancy, but here’s the problem -

Flavor Leaf is Town. I’ve caught far too many Towntells off of him to believe anything else.

Who could be Norwee’s partner if not FL?

I just think Ram has been really townie.

Why? I just don't see it even a little bit.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm also a bad flip because no one has given a single reason why I'm scum, yet continue pushing on me.

[Thestatusquo]

I would vote norwee if and only if its him or me, but I'd be very unhappy to do so. Leaving pine alive here is indefensible.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean thats not entirely accurate. I'd also vote norwee over nancy and akarin, but thats obvious.

[Thestatusquo]

The fact that pine is at the same time making the argument that he and fl can't be scum together because they wouldn't leave all these associatives with each other because they're so good but simultaneously thinks me and norwee are such bad scum that our play would be just straight up hard defending each other is another example of what I think is a disingenuous argument from pine.

I don't believe he thinks this, because I don't know in what world two scum literally just tie each other together at end game like this.

It's another big part of why I think all these solves are not great. They involve the most surface level analysis of scum play that I've ever seen. Do we really think the only way scum interact with their partners is to hard defend them in this spot? An example of a pair I see getting disregarded is Ram-Me. Like, obviously I know that pair isn't real but scum can and do interact like Ram and I have to each other all the time.

[Thestatusquo]

My thought process goes like this:

Mistyx - I've pretty much strong town read mistyx since day 1 of this game, and I don't think the claim makes any sense as a fake claim. The only thing that gives me pause is its kind of out of place in the setup, and the reaction here of not flipping them gives the WIFOM justification for why scum would make this play. That's very tinfoil hat, though.

FL - I think theres a chance that FL is scum. I don't agree with Pine's justification of the FL read. I'll get to that more when I talk to pine. I think FL is most likely scum with Pine because of how he's interacted generally.

Nancy Drew - I think nancy is town based on her tonal reactions to being scum read. I've read some of nancy's scum games and she does some amount of this reaction to being scum read in those games but its tonally VERY different. I can provide examples if people want but I don't think this is a contentious point.

Akarin - Town by mech.

Ramcius - I think ramcius has played this game in a very scummy way. I don't think he was trying to find scum at any point. His play today in particular has been textbook "I am trying to find the easiest miselim." He literally said "I want to flip TSQ because its the elim the least people will object to." That's not scum hunting, that's scum miselim hunting.

Pine - I don't like the arguments pine is making. I think in particular claiming his role clears him is just emphatically wrong and Jingle and Pine should both know that. He's also lock town'd FL and hard defended him with I think little justification. If we look at his PoE post above we'll see the reason for town reading FL is actually incredibly weak. It's a minor meta point. He says he's "been town telling" but what town tells are those? I don't see them. I also don't think his play in any of the earlier game days had town motivation. He also does a very similar thing with ramcius. Apparently Ramcius is town for...some posts today? Ignoring the rest of the play and just like that with no further explanation? Ok. I didn't like the way he interacted with either of the day 1 or 2 wagons and I don't like how he's only now interacting with the game in a real way now that he's here. He also has a scum read on me which I think is way more pronounced than is justifies. He admits its only PoE which in no way justifies the amount of confidence he's shown in it. Town would want to evaluate more here and show more curiosity about whether they've been wrong or not, like nancy or akarin or misty has been doing. Pine is not doing that. He's just pushing on me with a level of certainty not justified by the fact that his read comes down to "idk poe" when his poe list as I've already explained, isn't very strong. I don't really feel the need to go in depth into the role because I feel like norwee has covered that in depth but I a) Don't think the role is real but b) if it is real I think it makes way more sense for the scum to have it in this setup than town. Even his attack on Norwee doesn't have a lot behind him. "95% scum" because he's supporting someone who is only there because of PoE? Ok, dude. That's a classic case of making your evidence fit your conclusions. If you're not scum, you need to reevaluate here because holy hell is that bad logic.

Norwee - I genuinely don't know what's the scum case on norwee. Pine says he's 95% scum but his reason for suggesting that does not in any way imply scum to me (it helps that I know I'm green.) I town read norwee because he's coming to a lot of the same conclusions I am this game, and I think his interactions with pine showcase genuine town frustration.

This leaves me with a PoE of (pine, ramcius, FL) in order of preference. Then after that I would be willing to elim mistyx because I trust if she's town (the most likely) her vig shot will be better than this town being led by pine. After that I would eliminate norwee if its him or me. I'd vote no elim before eliminating nancy or akarin.

[Thestatusquo]

I dont think its fair to say pine completely ignored ramcius. I just find his reason for finding him town really uncompelling and hand wavey.

[Thestatusquo]

I don’t know what’s up with FL here but I definitely think Ram is town and Pine’s plan is protown. I’m not sure if I should vote for Norwee or Shea yet but I have some paranoia that Norwee might actually know his alignment, since he seems to be beyond convinced that She’s flipping town.

FL suddenly wavering on his hard town Pine read, why?

I’m really paranoid that it might actually be FL/Norwee and prior to that I was going to post that it was likely a Norwee/Shea team but now I’m wondering if Math was actually right?

Do you think both scum are in the vanilla claims, or if it's 1 in vanilla and 1 in PR, or if it's both in PR claims?

I think that DEB strongman doesn’t make sense with just molla’s role, so at least on in vts and I really don’t understand the Ram sr. I think he’s really obvious town. I mean it’s possible that this setup doesn’t make a whole lot of sense mech wise but I don’t think Penguin creates just a ridiculous setup.

See Pine jking either you or Shea would clear whomever but I don’t believe scum!Ram says green flip on you/Shea clears the other. Scum doesn’t want clears. That’s a transparently townie thought.

Ok but I made a very similar post day 2 that you said was town so if you think its either me or ram that point is a wash.

[Thestatusquo]

If there's a town flip a JK isn't even a clear even if we believe pine.

[Thestatusquo]

It's hard because you have a million posts but I'll look.

[Thestatusquo]

I don’t know what’s up with FL here but I definitely think Ram is town and Pine’s plan is protown. I’m not sure if I should vote for Norwee or Shea yet but I have some paranoia that Norwee might actually know his alignment, since he seems to be beyond convinced that She’s flipping town.

FL suddenly wavering on his hard town Pine read, why?

I’m really paranoid that it might actually be FL/Norwee and prior to that I was going to post that it was likely a Norwee/Shea team but now I’m wondering if Math was actually right?

Do you think both scum are in the vanilla claims, or if it's 1 in vanilla and 1 in PR, or if it's both in PR claims?

I think that DEB strongman doesn’t make sense with just molla’s role, so at least on in vts and I really don’t understand the Ram sr. I think he’s really obvious town. I mean it’s possible that this setup doesn’t make a whole lot of sense mech wise but I don’t think Penguin creates just a ridiculous setup.

See Pine jking either you or Shea would clear whomever but I don’t believe scum!Ram says green flip on you/Shea clears the other. Scum doesn’t want clears. That’s a transparently townie thought.

Ok but I made a very similar post day 2 that you said was town so if you think its either me or ram that point is a wash.

You need to link or quote that post because I can’t remember.

Its not quite the same now that I've found the post but this is what I was thinking of, but the logic is roughly the same.

I don’t fully townread Zor, but with that claim they’ve put an target on their back so i’m willing to back off since they will hopefully get resolved at some point anyways.

UNVOTE:

How much time do we have left?

Quoting issue.

We have like nine days. Pump the brakes, crazytrain.

What quoting issue? And there’s only 2 votes on TGP, he’s not getting run up.

Do you have any familiarity with TGP scum meta because I have none.

I think you’re very likely town now which makes me think Shea might be too now. The reason is that he said, if either one of us flips red look at the other. Well I’m obviously not and I don’t think you are either, so why would scum!Shea make that comment about 2 town slots, right? That doesn’t make any sense, so Shea’s probably town for that.

[Thestatusquo]

Norwee and Ramcius make a lot of sense as a team now that I think about it.

But I still just don't believe pines claim and norwee pine does not make sense to me as a team at all.

[Thestatusquo]

oh also nancy I'm a he. Just FYI.

[Thestatusquo]

Ah yes ok.

[Thestatusquo]

In a world where norwee is scum, which is not the world I think we live in, I think the most likely buddy is Ramcius.