TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Flavor Leaf]

You guys are like actively about to lose the game for town, how should we be acting right now?

The play from both of you has made me feel like if it was 50-50 I'd feel super gross letting you win, so...

it's not actual 50-50, it's only 50-50 because of the way I've acted, which means it's more like 75-25.

I was pushing you instead of Zoraster Day 1, and I hammered when DEB was already going to hammer, Norwegian pushed through the zoraster.

I actively defended you yesterday when Status was trying to push you when Norwegian and I were fighting.

I have actively played in a way where if I was scum, it makes zero sense to play at all any of the way I have this game.

There's just many reasons you guys just are actively avoiding.

Sure, one reason doesnt make someone scum, but yes, the actions all together DO make someone scum, and Norwegian has been discreditng, and shading, and actively pushing me to work me up all game.

He has actively been pushing a scum agenda, IE he set this day up saying Pine's the best fade, then set it up saying no matter what Pine flips, it indicates me as scum, which is just trash because I know I am town.

[Flavor Leaf]

like sorry, take out setup spec, you guys have absolute nothing why I'm scum, it's just a personality read because people don't know how to separate it.

[Flavor Leaf]

This is just a straight up anti scum agenda if i had been playing scum, as Pine said a long ass time ago.

[Mistyx]

like sorry, take out setup spec, you guys have absolute nothing why I'm scum, it's just a personality read because people don't know how to separate it.

okay

let's actually talk about this because i think its an interesting point

[Mistyx]

fl what have you done differently than how you would play this game as scum?

[Pine]

Paraphrased from Dannflor:

Dear Mini Theme,

I hadn't really been following, but when Pine started floundering I dived in. I now have strong opinions.

First, Nancy and Flavor - you are both Town, and the petulant TvT you're doing is trashing this game. Knock it off.

Nancy is Town. First, this is precisely her Town meta. That whole freaking out over being misread thing is classic her, and my research shows she sucks at faking it as scum. Further, she doesn't even

try

as scum, she's way more forgiving. That's not what's happening here. her scumgame is far more self-aware, and her blatant

lack

of self-awareness here is kind of a dead giveaway. (Editor's note: Creature shed the "Transparent" title, maybe it should go to Nancy for a while.) The only time I've ever misread Nancy was in our first game together, and at this point she's easy. I had some paranoia, but I checked and checked twice. She doesn't pull this a scum. The spats with FL reinforce this.

Flavor Leaf is also Town, incidentally. He mentioned earlier that DEB's buddies weren't likely to TR his absence and stone-throwing. DEB never remains unflipped in this game, and FL knows it. @FL you know who was hard TRing him right from the start? Nancy. As a scumbuddy, Nancy busses DEB here. And yeah, there's a WIFOM argument to be made here, but that's bunk. She can maybe do some WIFOMing stuff, but she's not up to that level yet.

Back to FL. Along with the hard Towntell Pine found earlier for him, his consistent approach to the game has been to solve and sort. Yeah, he's a prick. Yeah, he's a bit of an ass. But that fits with his aggressive means of sifting the game. But he's not quite this

reckless

as scum, and when he is it's far more calculating. Town!FL here has few illusions about survival, he's there to get in, solve, and pass it off to the grownups in the room to prosecute. It's what he does. Scum!FL has no motive to do a lot of the things he's done, provoking the people he has. There's just no

benefit

to it. He's not afraid to do so if there's gain, but there isn't here. He's just being a dick. But he's OUR dick.

Dann had a few minor observations about other players (including calling Shea out as a deepwolf long before I was convinced of it), but his thoughts focused most strongly on the Nancy vs FL issue and Norwegian. To continue.

HOW IS NORWEGIAN STILL ALIVE? He's so fucking scummy I'm starting to think he's intentionally trying to invoke the "too scummy to be scum" trope to avoid suspicion. He's been intentionally manipulating the game from the very start, pushing Town players into fighting with one another, then stepping back to stoke the carnage. Absolutely nothing he's done this game has been geared towards solving, it's all been tearing people down and tilting them at one another. "Frankly, it's gross and manipulative."

(Editor's note: That last sentence in quotes is a direct quote, everything else is heavily reworded to comply with the rules. Mods, if you want to whack me for five words, that's your prerogative.)

It's a long and abusive slog, but reread FL vs Norwegian in paired ISO. Think about what Norwegian's posts are doing. He's

goading

FL. I had Pine quote two posts from him earlier in the game, and they

remain

the scumfuckiest thing in the game. Here they are again:

titus says that Norwee and FL should never be voted unless Akarin flips town

i'm inclined to agree

I don't think this is a super bad take though, even if anyone dislikes VCA by principle.
If Akarin is town then it proves both me and FL are most likely in a SvT, and if Akarin is scum then maybe this just is a TvT and scum are in the inactive fucks or cheering our TvT on.

I’m not changing my vote until either me/FL is flipped or FL admits he is wrong on me.
I’m not going to become the elimination in ElO because of FL’s garbage play.
If FL agrees on voting someone else like Akarin then i’ll consider voting there as well. Otherwise, no.

Sweet jebas these are scummy posts

Credit @Dannflor

Everything about Norwegian's ISO is designed to engineer a scenario which is most beneficial to himself personally, while smearing others, particularly threats, with mud. He's trying to paint himself as the logical and Towny one, where he's anything but. He breathes toxicity and and tars up the game with nonsense, dragging the biggest threats into the quicksand of AtE and strawman attacks. Let's look at 3781 for a sec, where he's setting up this exact scenario, transparently trying to push an agenda rather than a solve. He's not considering other possibilities. He's stoking others' paranoia to keep the Town off balance until it drives home a lazy elimination. That's how we got a Zor elim, it's how we got a TGP elim. And all the while, he sits back and keeps poking. But again in 3781...LOOK AT WHAT HE'S DOING - he's demonstrating uncanny certainty and an impossible degree of confidence for a Town player. No Town player on D3 has the game solved this firmly. He has

presumptions

of Town on all of {misty, ND, shea, Akarin, Ramcius} that are so rock solid he's not trying to question them. He's only framing his arguments to this crowd.

TL;DR - Norwegian's game has been one of manipulation and provocation. He goads people into doing his dirty work for him, steeps the game in toxicity, and has crafted a narrative where he's the Town component of not one but two TvS pairs, in order to discard all outward suspicion of others and buddy up to them.

Whew, that was lengthy.

[Pine]

Did someone put out a memo in the scum PT that insulting me is a good way to manipulate me or something?

Take your head out of your ass. THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.

Insulting you isn't a good way to manipulate you, or get you to change your mind, showing you disdain SHOULDN'T AFFECT YOUR JUDGMENT

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT

GROW

THE

FUCK

UP

[Flavor Leaf]

if i were scum here, id have had a much larger impact on the gamestate. i havent been able to get momentum all game.

DEB and I were scum together last year in Team Mafia, if him and I were scum here, I'd have been setup far better than i am now. Mistyx/Nancy, you already know that DEB and I would have pulled some type of gambit if we were scum together.

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

[Mistyx]

okay

fl do you have a townread on pine for reasons outside of you two having the same solve?

if so, could you walk me through it?

[Mistyx]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

[Pine]

Full Jailkeeper should hard clear me here, children. No one else has anything that makes sense to balance the Strongman.

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

[Mistyx]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81719

protectives were jjh (2-shot alien), klick (2-shot doc), hito (JOAT with bp giver)

[Flavor Leaf]

^ just in case someone tries to go "you lost last year, though"

we were on the way to a perfect scum victory before I slipped, so

[Mistyx]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81719

protectives were jjh (2-shot alien), klick (2-shot doc), hito (JOAT with bp giver)

And that's a

lot

more protection than we've seen here.

Are you listening to yourself?

[Pine]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

We have 1-shot doc and 1-shot self-commute. That's not even in the same league as what last year's game have.

Further, Jailkeeper is also negative utility, in that I also roleblock the people I protect.

This is

exactly

how you balance that.

[Mistyx]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81719

protectives were jjh (2-shot alien), klick (2-shot doc), hito (JOAT with bp giver)

And that's a

lot

more protection than we've seen here.

Are you listening to yourself?

yes

i think if you consider the commuters as protectives then it's a comparable amount, even though i wouldn't say it's as much

[Mistyx]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

We have 1-shot doc and 1-shot self-commute. That's not even in the same league as what last year's game have.

Further, Jailkeeper is also negative utility, in that I also roleblock the people I protect.

This is

exactly

how you balance that.

if you're saying it's just the 1, do you not believe FL's claim?

[Flavor Leaf]

okay

fl do you have a townread on pine for reasons outside of you two having the same solve?

if so, could you walk me through it?

yes, i was town reading him since day 1, us having the same solve had nothing to do with the read

the way he defended me day 1 doesn't come from scum, he gained nothing from defending me there, as i went on, i thought he could pocket, and the claim he made did sound scummy, but he basically softed to me a long time ago. I knew Pine was a PR yesterday. I knew Akarin as a PR yesterday, as I called it out why I think Status could have been pushing her

[Akarin]

It's a 1-shot of BP difference in terms of total protection.

[Flavor Leaf]

im sorry, i just feel a lot of scum energy coming from Norwegian guys, and that also helps my Pine town read.

His Norwegian case, or Dannfloor's really, is far superior to mine, im not the case maker, i go off feeling people's auras and actions

[Pine]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

We have 1-shot doc and 1-shot self-commute. That's not even in the same league as what last year's game have.

Further, Jailkeeper is also negative utility, in that I also roleblock the people I protect.

This is

exactly

how you balance that.

if you're saying it's just the 1, do you not believe FL's claim?

I don't know where you get that from?!

FL's claim is solid.

[Mistyx]

okay here let's take it from the top down

akarin is essentially mech clear

i think nancy is obvtown, by tone, by meta, by approach, etc etc

i think norwee is towny from tone/approach stuff, and there's been a couple posts i've seen from him that are just "yes this person is just town"

i think TSQ had a really good d1 but has dropped off since then

i don't think ram was towny at any point really and titus wants me to push him though im not sure why on the latter

i think FL has been very FL this game and like, i kind of want to take what he said about being scum with DEB at face value, plus i think DEB would be more motivated to play scum with him

pine is a contentious slot that i do not have a strong read on but i think his approach to today has been kind of pockety to FL specifically which is like

??? why fl only, is it to try to draw associations after flip?