TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, I forgot to mention: I'm only including "strong" factors in these reads. I'm trying not to look at every little thing a slot's done like their reads and what reasoning makes sense, or what I don't agree with etc. I'm just looking for the things that I really believe in being town-indicative or scum-indicative.

I'm trying to do one on Creature right now and it feels impossible. How does one read this dragon?!?!?!2

[Augustus Caesar]

This will probably go against my team's interests, but I want to work around the world xoffer and DeasVail are town.

Why'd you make this post at the time, Creature? Outside of this post, you've been consistently pushing and sus of both of those two, so, where did that world go?

[Augustus Caesar]

I kept having edge-case-thoughts that Datisi was scum playing up how much he hated this game, and it makes me a little sad that I know he really did hate it now. It's not been thaaaat bad

[Augustus Caesar]

In fact, it's been GREAT. I love it

[Augustus Caesar]

Okay, I give up on doing one of those on Creature. So, instead I'm just gonna do a mega ISO + talk about general thoughts I have, and hopefully you all can chip in and we can get somewhere.

Spoiler: Creature of Habit

Damn, we won't be so good if we mislynch today.

This feels fake.

Creature constantly bringing up DGB's reads and using them to push Deas/xofelf is something I actually find quite scummy. I see your argument that you don't think Creature does that as scum, Deas, but I kinda agree with Reck that that just boils down to too scummy to be scum. Main reason I think it's scummy for Creature

specifically

, is because Creature when town generally has a very high accuracy rate. His reads are actually really good even if he isn't the best at articulating them, and it's not a bad strat to just sheep him sometimes in games if you think he's town. He's also not afraid to voice those reads and push them. In comparison, for day 2, I only recall two reads he had of his own that he kept repeating - that was Datisi and I being town. Creature not having a single scumread of his own, or any other town feels outside of that feels really strange to me.

I'm really meh about Reck. Though I find it towny Reck has been constantly ignored as I would expect scum to gain a little more consideration in their pushes.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

That leaves:

Sirius9121
Aristophanes
Summer Nights
xofelf
DeasVail
The Bulge
xRECKONERx

I hate how townreading any of these players makes me feel wrong.

This frustration feels towny.

i thought you thought deas is scum?

Now I'm not sure

why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

Wasn't he sheeping his team on Deas being scum? He frames this like it was his scumread that he's changed his mind on. DGB doesn't get brought up past this point.

VOTE: Adorable

Weird, considering this:

I townread Datisi and Hectic. My team is strongly townread Adorable. Maybe I can start from here.

VOTE: RCEnigma

atp this slot is a liability

Little weird he calls it a liability rather than just scum. The Bulge had the same thought about this post.

That leaves:

Sirius9121
Aristophanes
Summer Nights
xofelf
DeasVail
The Bulge
xRECKONERx

Oh, and these types of posts. I'm in two minds about them. The way he keeps posting a list of names like this felt towny to me at first, like he's desperately trying to post names he's interesting in finding scum in, to help himself get a better bearing on the game. But, there's basically never any good followup to these posts, like, no real solving or actual delving deeper than just posting a list of names, so now I think it's a little performative.

Hectic, do you stick with your godread on Ydrasse?

Maybe I'm biased, but I liked- nah, even as I'm typing this I realise asking a simple question like this isn't at all hard to fake as scum. Disregard.

Online list has some interesting names

lmao, didn't notice xofelf.

Those names pop up at strange times.

Looking for elitells/people online is always +town

[Augustus Caesar]

Creature, a few questions:

This will probably go against my team's interests, but I want to work around the world xoffer and DeasVail are town.

Why'd you make this post at the time? Outside of this post, you've been consistently pushing and sus of both of those two, so, where did that world go?

---

why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

Did DGB chip in on her take on Deas around this time? What was it?

---

Finally, what are YOUR scumreads? Is your xofelf read still you sheeping DGB?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh God... I need reread Reck and Ari and I'm dreading it

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, Creature, one other question I forgot about:

VOTE: Adorable

Why'd you make this vote, considering your team had this opinion:

I townread Datisi and Hectic. My team is strongly townread Adorable. Maybe I can start from here.

What changed?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, my insane tinfoil read:

Probably, through 7 pages my shortlist poe is datisi/Deasveil/Reck

RCE's been around for a while, and is aware of the "rule of three" - where if a scum player states a scumpool of three players, they usually have exactly 1 scum. He wouldn't make a novice mistake like that for TEAM MAFIA now, would he??!"??R£?$Geg

The tinfoil theory is that all 3 of those players are town.

[DeasVail]

Deas, how do you read Ydrasse now?

I think the best way to describe my feelings is that my Ydrasse read is on standby while I reevaluate my reads. Your townread on Ydrasse is a big part of my not necessarily scumreading her currently and I really need to look at where I might be wrong in my other reads before blindly trying to push an Ydrasse elim through because "sure she might be scum" today.

I will have the time to be able to properly consider my reads tomorrow afternoon (my time) and I expect that I will have a much better idea of where I'm at then.

For now I am pretty sure Augustus, Adorable, Xofelf and Bulge are off the table for me, but my reads on everyone else feel less "updated" and I need to reevaluate.

[Ydrasse]

i too will be considering my reads tonight

in the meantime why is xof off the table for everyone right now? they still are on it for me

[xRECKONERx]

I did my whole catchup post. Creature wants to make it Ari vs DV. Bulge hops on the DV wagon. Creature put DV at L-2, then immediately hops off onto Ydrasse with DV when DV tries to flashwagon there.

This is now the second day in a row where Ydrasse has been flashwagoned at deadline. I'm not sure what that means but I'm flagging it as a pattern.

Creature calls DV/Ari/Ydrasse all town despite having voted two of them in the last ~10 posts.

Datisi seems to be shading Ari near the end, lambasting him for not wanting to rush reads/wagons.

We get a bunch of GIFposting between Ydrasse/Hectic. So, tinfoil time, it seems like any time Ydrasse gets momentum on her, Hectic comes in and flirtspams the thread with Ydrasse until there's no more momentum, giving Ydrasse plenty of cover to AtE her ass off. Hectic hides it all behind a meta read and says he has Ydrasse at the top of his townpile now. I feel like... this is Hectic potentially trying to pocket Ydrasse? Come in when she's under even the slightest amount of pressure, gigglespam some bullshit until people want to vomit looking at the thread, keep Ydrasse deep in the pocket. Creature calls it scum theater but that seems too brazen. I guess I could see a world where they plan out those interactions in the scum PT but I find it way more likely it's a blatant pocketing attempt.

Creature then tries to flashwagon Adorable at the end of the day. ? I don't recall Creature saying anything ab Adorable before this. Then as soon as I'm back yelling about the multiple disparate wagons/vote hopping he's back on Aristophanes to end the day.

DV's VT claim is probably true. I can't see scum claiming VT in that situation when they are at risk of just getting turbofucked by a speedwagon at deadline.

Ari now hops on Ydrasse when Creature asks what to do, having already seen the flashwagon attempt from DV/Creature so he knows there's opportunity there. I just don't fucking know man, there's so much weirdness from Ari's play. The Ydrasse flashwagon already came and fizzled, why are you trying to restart it right now?

BOOM Creature is back on Adorable. Also shading xof on the side via DGB's second hand account.

There's a post Hectic makes here about how DV not going after Ari despite decreasing his odds for survival that just rubs me the wrong way. It feels like scum talking out how town should behave in a situation to rationalize a vote hop rather than organic town thought, if that makes sense?

Hectic then derails all the momentum on Adorable for a last second flash wagon on Sirius. I show up before bed and toss down a vote.

I can't even be mad about the Sirius wagon. He did nothing all game and then showed up at the very end when getting wagoned just before deadline to whine about being wagoned.

Hectic shows up to declare the speedwagon he lead at the last minute is going to flip town but that "this is the wagon for today".

This seems to be a pattern. Hectic jumps on or leads a wagon on someone, then declares them to be town. Actually Hectic's entire game is weirdly built around declaring people town and following townreads. I generally find that to be scummy because it's way easier for scum to hide behind townreads they know to be true than try to manufacture scumreads on people to push mislims.

It's a similar vibe as to why I'm reading Ari as scum still, because we're on Day 3 of this game and I cannot tell you one single scumread Ari has pushed or committed to.

Anyway, I don't know if that helped me at all.

I've got DV/xof/Bulge deep in my "Will Not Touch" bucket right now.
I think after re-reading everything, my top picks for scum right now look like Ari, Creature, and Hectic? Ari is something I just can't shake. I worry that I'm getting tunnel vision where I can't see anything he does as pro-town, but like, I legitimately have tried to reread his posts from a townie mindset and am just not getting there, there's too much scum motivation I read. Creature's constant vote hopping end of day yesterday looks extremely bad, as does Hectic's. They both hopped around a ton and killed momentum on wagons at the last second. They both lead wagons on people that they covered their asses by saying they thought were town. Multiple times. I refuse to believe that scum had no part in the end of day bullshit yesterday.

So... there.

[xRECKONERx]

i too will be considering my reads tonight

in the meantime why is xof off the table for everyone right now? they still are on it for me

Because I cannot fathom a world where the vast majority of xof's post come from someone playing with scum motivations

[Augustus Caesar]

This seems to be a pattern. Hectic jumps on or leads a wagon on someone, then declares them to be town. Actually Hectic's entire game is weirdly built around declaring people town and following townreads. I generally find that to be scummy because it's way easier for scum to hide behind townreads they know to be true than try to manufacture scumreads on people to push mislims.

I vote and pressure someone I think is scum, give reasons for why I scumread them, people like or agree with my reasons, and vote with me. The Bulge and Deas both reacted in towny ways to pressure.

You're saying I'm both simultaneously scum hiding behind townreads because those are easier to manufacture, while acknowledging I've been pushing scumreads and leading wagons all game? Which is it? I scumread and gave cases on Deas and The Bulge and was the reason they were both wagoned. I don't understand this at all.

The Ydrasse pocketing thing is really stupid considering she would most likely be dead on day 1 or 2 if I hadn't convinced people she were town, and the fact my reasons are very good. I'm not unnecessarily defending her and it's not over the top. I'm defending her because I strongly believe she's town and she would very likely run up and mislaunched if I didn't.

[Augustus Caesar]

It's a similar vibe as to why I'm reading Ari as scum still, because we're on Day 3 of this game and I cannot tell you one single scumread Ari has pushed or committed to.

...
You can't remember me pushing Deas or The Bulge? Or beeboy/RCE from the previous day?

It'd be the easiest thing in the world for me to remain true in my pushes and continue voting them. I already gave the reasons for why I thought either of those two were scum, it's not difficult for me to just say I still believe in them. I change my mind because I'm actually changing my mind and think their reactions to pressure are towny, or change my mind in something previously they've done.

Unsure if OMGUSing or whether I really hate all of these arguments by Reck to force scum-motivation for my actions. Chip in please, townbloc.

[Augustus Caesar]

For now I am pretty sure Augustus, Adorable, Xofelf and Bulge are off the table for me, but my reads on everyone else feel less "updated" and I need to reevaluate.

I'm very happy you agree with me on these slots ftr. If you can trust in my Ydrasse-read, this day should be a lot less chaotic and make a lot more sense if we focus efforts on the slots that actually contain scum.

Right now, I'm wagering it's Creature + 1 of Ari/Reck.

[Augustus Caesar]

Actually looking forward to DIGGING in and reading through those Ari/Reck interactions now. I doubt that's SvS given how bad of a strat that is after a scum buddy goes down day 1.

Also, thinking [Ydrasse, Puff, The Bulge, xofelf, Deas] are town only leaves [Creature, Ari, Reck] as a PoE. I didn't even realise earlier it was that small lol. Really believe we have 2 scum in that pool.

[xRECKONERx]

This seems to be a pattern. Hectic jumps on or leads a wagon on someone, then declares them to be town. Actually Hectic's entire game is weirdly built around declaring people town and following townreads. I generally find that to be scummy because it's way easier for scum to hide behind townreads they know to be true than try to manufacture scumreads on people to push mislims.

I vote and pressure someone I think is scum, give reasons for why I scumread them, people like or agree with my reasons, and vote with me. The Bulge and Deas both reacted in towny ways to pressure.

You're saying I'm both simultaneously scum hiding behind townreads because those are easier to manufacture, while acknowledging I've been pushing scumreads and leading wagons all game? Which is it? I scumread and gave cases on Deas and The Bulge and was the reason they were both wagoned. I don't understand this at all.

The Ydrasse pocketing thing is really stupid considering she would most likely be dead on day 1 or 2 if I hadn't convinced people she were town, and the fact my reasons are very good. I'm not unnecessarily defending her and it's not over the top. I'm defending her because I strongly believe she's town and she would very likely run up and mislaunched if I didn't.

I'm saying you back down off scumreads and call everyone town.

Literally, right now, you have it narrowed down to me/Ari/Creature not because you think we're scummy, because you've found reasons to town read everybody else.
You gave cases on Deas and Bulge and then backed down. There's not commitment and all it does is lead to you calling every person you wagon town. That's my point.

It's a similar vibe as to why I'm reading Ari as scum still, because we're on Day 3 of this game and I cannot tell you one single scumread Ari has pushed or committed to.

...
You can't remember me pushing Deas or The Bulge? Or beeboy/RCE from the previous day?

It'd be the easiest thing in the world for me to remain true in my pushes and continue voting them. I already gave the reasons for why I thought either of those two were scum, it's not difficult for me to just say I still believe in them. I change my mind because I'm actually changing my mind and think their reactions to pressure are towny, or change my mind in something previously they've done.

Unsure if OMGUSing or whether I really hate all of these arguments by Reck to force scum-motivation for my actions. Chip in please, townbloc.

You pushed beeboy solely off him not being here. Plenty of people did.
Though, I may need to reread that. I remember Ari's interactions there being weird as fuck but I don't recall your specific actions around that wagon. I'm more speaking broadly about you and Ari BOTH spending the vast majority of the game calling people town instead of pursuing scum reads.

"It'd be the easiest thing in the world" until you have to commit to a read. I don't know, man, I look at your list, I see that you've called everyone town except three people (which, by the way, you HAVE called me town already before, I'm just in your scum pile now because I'm "less townie than other people" which is a bullshit PoE reason). I think your reasons for calling people town are flimsy. Like, you started calling xofelf town after it was convenient to do so. There's one comment from like two weeks ago where you agree with my stated reasons for xofelf being town, that's it. Why does xofelf get perma-town status from you off of one post that was noteworthy whereas you called my posting giving you "big town vibes" yet that gets faded to the background. I'm trying to find the progression there. I'm trying to find the progression on Ari going from a townlean you hard defended all the way to your scumpool. There isn't any that I can see. Feel free to illuminate where these reads progressed from if I'm missing something.

[xRECKONERx]

Unsure if OMGUSing or whether I really hate all of these arguments by Reck to force scum-motivation for my actions. Chip in please, townbloc.

I really dislike this, though.

Hectic's natural response to me even LIGHTLY pressuring him is to set up for an OMGUS on me, but he's using this "town bloc" he put together to preemptively justify it so he can absolve himself of committing to a read.

I still think Aristophanes is scum. I need more associatives to find the last one. beeboy being gone + RCE being dead in the water makes it really hard to read any tells around him to know how scum would react. I'll give it a reread at some point to see if I can glean anything about Hectic from his play around it.

[Augustus Caesar]

I'm saying you back down off scumreads and call everyone town.

Literally, right now, you have it narrowed down to me/Ari/Creature not because you think we're scummy, because you've found reasons to town read everybody else.
You gave cases on Deas and Bulge and then backed down. There's not commitment and all it does is lead to you calling every person you wagon town. That's my point.

Why is this scummy? Why is it scummy for me to change my mind about people I initially scumread and push?

[Augustus Caesar]

I really dislike this, though.

Hectic's natural response to me even LIGHTLY pressuring him is to set up for an OMGUS on me, but he's using this "town bloc" he put together to preemptively justify it so he can absolve himself of committing to a read.

I've laid out why I don't like your reasons. I also acknowledge I could be OMGUSing. I want a second or fourth opinion on something I'm biased on.

[xRECKONERx]

Because it's the only thing you do. Because it's way easier for scum to avoid heat by staying out of the spotlight. Call people town, they won't look twice at you most of the time.

I find it way more likely that scum calls a bunch of people town and uses PoE to determine their reads bc then there's no read to defend. It's just "welp it's PoE".

This is from experience, this is just what I've seen happen a million times. Scum have a much easier time calling town town than calling town scum, that's just basic psychology. Scum want to tell the truth when possible to minimize the chances they're caught in a lie and calling town by their proper alignment is the easiest way to do that.

So yeah I'm gonna raise an eyebrow at anyone with too many townreads and no scumreads

[Augustus Caesar]

"It'd be the easiest thing in the world" until you have to commit to a read. I don't know, man, I look at your list, I see that you've called everyone town except three people (which, by the way, you HAVE called me town already before, I'm just in your scum pile now because I'm "less townie than other people" which is a bullshit PoE reason). I think your reasons for calling people town are flimsy. Like, you started calling xofelf town after it was convenient to do so. There's one comment from like two weeks ago where you agree with my stated reasons for xofelf being town, that's it. Why does xofelf get perma-town status from you off of one post that was noteworthy whereas you called my posting giving you "big town vibes" yet that gets faded to the background. I'm trying to find the progression there. I'm trying to find the progression on Ari going from a townlean you hard defended all the way to your scumpool. There isn't any that I can see. Feel free to illuminate where these reads progressed from if I'm missing something.

xofelf is a very viable mislaunch right now actually if I was scum. Ydrasse and Creature both scumread them.

Besides that,uh, what was it, you think it's weird for me to have you/Ari in the PoE when I individually thought you both town earlier. Well, you said it yourself, I have stronger more tangible reasons to believe the other 5 slots are town. I made that reaslist to verbalize on those reasons. I couldn't find those same obvious reasons that speak out to me for you two. I thought you town because of town energy or vibes earlier on, and stuff you're saying generally made sense. That's fine but not something I can really see and believe in is actually of substance to think you're town.

Ari I thought town because of meta and the fact I haven't seen him get mad in like the 5 scumgames I'e looked through of his now, and he has been mad at you this game. I also then considered that he has PINE, and DANNFLOR, and one other person I can't remember the name of (terribly sorry but I'm sure you're also a good player) on his team, and that if needed, they could literally feed the solving to him for him to change the wording of, oh yeah, it was Jingle, sorry, Jangle. But yeah, or at least assist him heavily in. They're also aware that Ari doesn't get mad as scum, so may have encouraged or helped him to fake some. Considering these things and the strength of the players on his team, especially at playing scum, has made me value my metaread there a whole lot less than I did before.

So, I'm gonna ignore meta now, and read through all of his posts and read him solely for his actions THIS game. You should be elated.

[Augustus Caesar]

Because it's the only thing you do. Because it's way easier for scum to avoid heat by staying out of the spotlight. Call people town, they won't look twice at you most of the time.

I find it way more likely that scum calls a bunch of people town and uses PoE to determine their reads bc then there's no read to defend. It's just "welp it's PoE".

This is from experience, this is just what I've seen happen a million times. Scum have a much easier time calling town town than calling town scum, that's just basic psychology. Scum want to tell the truth when possible to minimize the chances they're caught in a lie and calling town by their proper alignment is the easiest way to do that.

So yeah I'm gonna raise an eyebrow at anyone with too many townreads and no scumreads

Mm, this is fair as a general thing. But again, you're saying scum find it easier to stay out of the spotlight and just fake townreads rather than scumreads, but that isn't what I've been doing at all. I've been making scumcases and pushing scumreads with reasons on why I think they're scum. If Deas or The Bulge were launched, I would be the one responsible. I don't get where you get that impression of my play from.

[Augustus Caesar]

Point being is that if I WANTED to, I could maintain a scumread on any of those slots I pushed previously, and I very much don't struggle to fake scumreads as scum. You can't say I'm scummy for no longer having any strong scumreads now when I have done before for good reasons, and ones that people called me town for. You have to explain why it's a scum-motivated decision for me to have those scumreads, to only decide to lose them later rather than stay consistent.

And let me lay on some JUICY self-meta:
if I were scum, I'd want to play this as cleanly and consistently as possible. I'd show clear progression, wouldn't be impulsive, and wouldn't let go of scumreads and resort to using PoE on day 3. I'm aware people townread players when they really believe in their pushes and remain true to them. Mislaunching someone isn't considered scummy if you think the pusher really believed in their reasons, so I wouldn't be at all afraid of hanging onto those scumreads. Reason I haven't here is because I'm town and odn't believe in them anymore.

I know I'm being defensive but I'd rather nip this in the bud now rather than waste time being looked at when I'm feeling pretty good about my scumpool (who we

should

be looking at)

Actually, that's a lie, mostly it'd just be stressful and would make me have less fun this game, and I want to be selfish and be able to scumhunt in peace lol