TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Nancy Drew 39]

I can wait until tomorrow but I’m 100% taking my cues from Akarin/Misty, who are both voting Pine.

[Nancy Drew 39]

I can wait until tomorrow but I’m 100% taking my cues from Akarin/Misty, who are both voting Pine.

and my team who are all convinced on an FL/Pine team and in that order of confidence. I am less sure but I think the Ico strongman thing is kind’ve hard to believe with molla flip/FL claim.

So that is the part that pings me most, rather than the ungated thing. I also think scum probably want to kill Misty > me because they think I’m the easiest pocket.

I also really really hate all of the AtE emo arguments trying to discredit me and especially Akarin. Telling me I’m wrong and that I shouldn’t sheep confitown doesn’t convince me of jack.

I don’t believe DEB used the strongman on Ico when it made way more sense to use it on molla. Ico never softed PR anywhere.

[Ramcius]

I come back and you guys trying to flip Pine? Where gone "we still have time?"

Just for the record, conf town doesn't mean they have better reads than you. Also, ofc scum want kill Mystix, they want to keep even numbers, otherwise we can flip Mystix to go back to odd numbers

[PenguinPower]

Votecount 3.11

Pine(4)

~ NorwegianboyEE(356), thestatusquo(88), Akarin(102), Mistyx(107)

thestatusquo(2)

~ Pine(144), Ramcius(115)

NorwegianboyEE(1)

~ Flavor Leaf(393)


Not Voting (1): Nancy Drew 39(301)


With 8 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2021-02-24 12:25:00)

Mod Notes

• Apologies for my absence - I've been having some weather-related issues.

[Mistyx]

I come back and you guys trying to flip Pine? Where gone "we still have time?"

Just for the record, conf town doesn't mean they have better reads than you. Also, ofc scum want kill Mystix, they want to keep even numbers, otherwise we can flip Mystix to go back to odd numbers

we haven't been doing anything

"we still have time" doesn't matter if we aren't using that time

[Pine]

VOTE: pine

w/e

i'm done deliberating with myself in circles

if this loses the game so be it at least its better than losing by inaction

Here’s the problem with this.

You aren’t sure, but I can

make us

sure.

If I’m right, we win the game.

If you’re right, you’re still flailing about trying to connect dots because guess what? You’re wrong.

You don’t kill the unprovoked protective/investigative claim here, regardless of other factors.

My role results in hard confirmations.

[Ramcius]

I'll be honest, I'm really paranoid of TSQ/FL team here, FL doing 180 on me and not voting TSQ, while talking me/TSQ and Norwee TSQ teams

[Pine]

Fine, ugh. I’m just so beyond done with this game.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!scum, game won with an earned guilty.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!town, we have like, three confirmed Town, we win mathematically.

We elim me, we DON’T have a confirmed scum, we DON’T have confirmed Town (other than Akarin), we’re in endgame with no leads and Town has no clue what to do next.

This is just...its throwing. But fine. Whatever. I needed to pay attention to this game earlier on and not let it get off the rails, that’s my takeaway from this.

[Pine]

I'll be honest, I'm really paranoid of TSQ/FL team here, FL doing 180 on me and not voting TSQ, while talking me/TSQ and Norwee TSQ teams

It’s not FL.

[NorwegianboyEE]

My role results in hard confirmations.

Your spot is very weak and your case on me and TSQ even weaker, so trying to cause paranoia about the elimination by flexing your "powerful role" is all that is left.

[Mistyx]

Fine, ugh. I’m just so beyond done with this game.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!scum, game won with an earned guilty.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!town, we have like, three confirmed Town, we win mathematically.

We elim me, we DON’T have a confirmed scum, we DON’T have confirmed Town (other than Akarin), we’re in endgame with no leads and Town has no clue what to do next.

This is just...its throwing. But fine. Whatever. I needed to pay attention to this game earlier on and not let it get off the rails, that’s my takeaway from this.

see

this is fully based off the logic that if we don't elim you we elim scum 100% today

which just isn't true

[Pine]

Fine, ugh. I’m just so beyond done with this game.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!scum, game won with an earned guilty.

We elim scum!Shea here, I jail Norwegian!town, we have like, three confirmed Town, we win mathematically.

We elim me, we DON’T have a confirmed scum, we DON’T have confirmed Town (other than Akarin), we’re in endgame with no leads and Town has no clue what to do next.

This is just...its throwing. But fine. Whatever. I needed to pay attention to this game earlier on and not let it get off the rails, that’s my takeaway from this.

see

this is fully based off the logic that if we don't elim you we elim scum 100% today

which just isn't true

You’re right. But if I’m massively wrong about Shea, we’re in exactly the same position on D4, but removing me eliminates our best shot at a mechanical solve

[Pine]

You’re betting the WHOLE game on me being scum, because if I’m telling the truth, we win the game. Full stop.

We virtually can’t lose if we elim scum today.

[Mistyx]

and if you're town here you're betting the whole game on shea being scum

because you know if we miss today you go down tomorrow

[Pine]

im sorry, i just feel a lot of scum energy coming from Norwegian guys, and that also helps my Pine town read.

His Norwegian case, or Dannfloor's really, is far superior to mine, im not the case maker, i go off feeling people's auras and actions

Speaking of, when is he planning to post that?

Paraphrased from Dannflor:

Dear Mini Theme,

I hadn't really been following, but when Pine started floundering I dived in. I now have strong opinions.

First, Nancy and Flavor - you are both Town, and the petulant TvT you're doing is trashing this game. Knock it off.

Nancy is Town. First, this is precisely her Town meta. That whole freaking out over being misread thing is classic her, and my research shows she sucks at faking it as scum. Further, she doesn't even

try

as scum, she's way more forgiving. That's not what's happening here. her scumgame is far more self-aware, and her blatant

lack

of self-awareness here is kind of a dead giveaway. (Editor's note: Creature shed the "Transparent" title, maybe it should go to Nancy for a while.) The only time I've ever misread Nancy was in our first game together, and at this point she's easy. I had some paranoia, but I checked and checked twice. She doesn't pull this a scum. The spats with FL reinforce this.

Flavor Leaf is also Town, incidentally. He mentioned earlier that DEB's buddies weren't likely to TR his absence and stone-throwing. DEB never remains unflipped in this game, and FL knows it. @FL you know who was hard TRing him right from the start? Nancy. As a scumbuddy, Nancy busses DEB here. And yeah, there's a WIFOM argument to be made here, but that's bunk. She can maybe do some WIFOMing stuff, but she's not up to that level yet.

Back to FL. Along with the hard Towntell Pine found earlier for him, his consistent approach to the game has been to solve and sort. Yeah, he's a prick. Yeah, he's a bit of an ass. But that fits with his aggressive means of sifting the game. But he's not quite this

reckless

as scum, and when he is it's far more calculating. Town!FL here has few illusions about survival, he's there to get in, solve, and pass it off to the grownups in the room to prosecute. It's what he does. Scum!FL has no motive to do a lot of the things he's done, provoking the people he has. There's just no

benefit

to it. He's not afraid to do so if there's gain, but there isn't here. He's just being a dick. But he's OUR dick.

Dann had a few minor observations about other players (including calling Shea out as a deepwolf long before I was convinced of it), but his thoughts focused most strongly on the Nancy vs FL issue and Norwegian. To continue.

HOW IS NORWEGIAN STILL ALIVE? He's so fucking scummy I'm starting to think he's intentionally trying to invoke the "too scummy to be scum" trope to avoid suspicion. He's been intentionally manipulating the game from the very start, pushing Town players into fighting with one another, then stepping back to stoke the carnage. Absolutely nothing he's done this game has been geared towards solving, it's all been tearing people down and tilting them at one another. "Frankly, it's gross and manipulative."

(Editor's note: That last sentence in quotes is a direct quote, everything else is heavily reworded to comply with the rules. Mods, if you want to whack me for five words, that's your prerogative.)

It's a long and abusive slog, but reread FL vs Norwegian in paired ISO. Think about what Norwegian's posts are doing. He's

goading

FL. I had Pine quote two posts from him earlier in the game, and they

remain

the scumfuckiest thing in the game. Here they are again:

titus says that Norwee and FL should never be voted unless Akarin flips town

i'm inclined to agree

I don't think this is a super bad take though, even if anyone dislikes VCA by principle.
If Akarin is town then it proves both me and FL are most likely in a SvT, and if Akarin is scum then maybe this just is a TvT and scum are in the inactive fucks or cheering our TvT on.

I’m not changing my vote until either me/FL is flipped or FL admits he is wrong on me.
I’m not going to become the elimination in ElO because of FL’s garbage play.
If FL agrees on voting someone else like Akarin then i’ll consider voting there as well. Otherwise, no.

Sweet jebas these are scummy posts

Credit @Dannflor

Everything about Norwegian's ISO is designed to engineer a scenario which is most beneficial to himself personally, while smearing others, particularly threats, with mud. He's trying to paint himself as the logical and Towny one, where he's anything but. He breathes toxicity and and tars up the game with nonsense, dragging the biggest threats into the quicksand of AtE and strawman attacks. Let's look at 3781 for a sec, where he's setting up this exact scenario, transparently trying to push an agenda rather than a solve. He's not considering other possibilities. He's stoking others' paranoia to keep the Town off balance until it drives home a lazy elimination. That's how we got a Zor elim, it's how we got a TGP elim. And all the while, he sits back and keeps poking. But again in 3781...LOOK AT WHAT HE'S DOING - he's demonstrating uncanny certainty and an impossible degree of confidence for a Town player. No Town player on D3 has the game solved this firmly. He has

presumptions

of Town on all of {misty, ND, shea, Akarin, Ramcius} that are so rock solid he's not trying to question them. He's only framing his arguments to this crowd.

TL;DR - Norwegian's game has been one of manipulation and provocation. He goads people into doing his dirty work for him, steeps the game in toxicity, and has crafted a narrative where he's the Town component of not one but two TvS pairs, in order to discard all outward suspicion of others and buddy up to them.

Whew, that was lengthy.

From Dannflor, roughly a day and a half old:

Shea is engaging in gross inconsistency lately. His stated solve, as with Norwegian, is Pine > Flavor Leaf, but he's spent all of his time lately attacking Ramcius. He spent much of Monday accusing Ram of misrepping, giving no reasons for his case, and engaging in bad faith. If his solve is {Pine, Flavor Leaf}, he should have Ramcius as Town, and should be spending his time trying to dissuade Ramcius rather than undermine him. Alternatively, if he's suddenly seeing things differently, he would be changing his tune about his solve. Instead, he is aggressively trying to have his cake and eat it too, clearly setting up a pivot to a {Ramcius, Flavor Leaf} solve when [Pine] flips green. Accusing someone of engaging in bad faith while engaging in it yourself should be a HUGE red flag.

"Your VCA suggests I'm second least likely to scum and you're ignoring it?" is absolute rubbish. You can't use that as a defense when you are ALSO arguing that the VCA is worthless because it suggests Nancy is scummiest and Pine is Towniest. Again, you just can't engage in this kind of cognitive dissonance and expect to be read as Town. Further, VCA is NEVER expected to be the sole reasoning behind something - it should always

inform

a more complex opinion. Nancy is a good example here - she is listed as the scummiest by VCA, but that's clearly hogwash because her Town meta includes exactly the kind of frenetic votehopping that pings VCA. You evaluate VCA in the context you're given, not by itself. Shea is way too experienced to believe what he's saying here.

In other words, Shea is taking exactly the kind of potshots [Pine] noted earlier, posting just to post, and muddying the water. He's trying to avoid taking the hard stance his alleged reads demand because he really wants to coast through this Pine elim, then flip onto Ramcius. Ramcius's arguments are a threat, so he's not trying to sort in good faith, he's just tearing down.

Pine, telling me to shut the fuck up here is absolutely uncalled for and you can do better than that as a person and as a forum moderator. I am asking that you answer those questions because I do not believe you have answered them, and shutting down discussion in one of the rudest ways possible is just not on. Please answer the questions and do not tell mee to shut the fuck up again. If you feel you have answered the questions, then please quote where you have answered them and I will explain why those answers are not satisfactory, because I have read all your posts and those questions are not answered.

Of course they're already answered. Your whole thing this game has been asking innocuous nonsense questions and then ignoring the answers when they don't align precisely with the narrow intent of your question.

I apologize for the incivility, but the tactics you're choosing to use this game are really tilting me.

What does Jingle think specifically about Pine being the only ungated role in the setup?

Asked and answered. The entire premise of an ungated Jailkeeper as Town's primary protective role is exactly fine.

And whether there are any implications of this.

Asked and answered, I think? We've been talking about the implications for a week now, so if you want something specific, ask it instead of waving your hands around with some vague "AHA" like this.

And why Jingle hasn't acknowledged this as a weakness of the claim himself

Because he can't post in this game. What are you even doing with this?

JJH doesn't really see Jingle coming up with that bad point about the strongman referencing roleblocking when that's what the normal strongman role PM looks like.

No, he didn't, I did.

It's phrased exactly the same way in the previous untrod tripod vs anime game. That's literally just how strongman role PMs look; it doesn't imply anything about the setup.
and Pine should know that and Jingle definitely knows that.

Absolute bullshit. Strongman roles are usually CALLED Strongman roles, and they are described like this.

I'm going to quote a line from that MafiaWiki article you didn't read before trying this attack:

Use and Power

Usually, One-Shot Strongman kills are put into the game to balance a potentially broken combination in the game. It is important not to waste the Strongman kill before something like Follow the Cop starts to take place.

EVEN THE STRATEGY SECTION OF MAFIAWIKI SUGGESTS MY/JINGLE'S POSITION IS CORRECT.

Here are the most salient parts of my solve. While Norwee can argue from repetition as much as he wants, it’s a strong case.

You may personally dislike me, you may have found me abrasive this game, but Mafia is a game of reason, not emotion.

This is the solve.

[Pine]

and if you're town here you're betting the whole game on shea being scum

because you know if we miss today you go down tomorrow

We’re both always betting the game on a correct elim today.

Mine has the failsafe of a strong PR to give us more info for D4. Either a full solve or at least additional knowledge.

Further, if FL or I successfully protect, we earn an extra mis-elim. It does not make mechanical sense to elim me here

[Thestatusquo]

Which is precisely why you claimed a role like the one you did, even if it doesn't make any sense. You've been scummy this whole game, have done nothing to find scum the whole game, and now you're in a position where you need to not die so you claimed a role that would keep you alive one more day. The problem is that it's an obvious fake claim. Like again, I get it, you're saying the things you need to say but come on dude.

[Pine]

*giant eye roll*

If I wanted to stay under the radar I’d have claimed X-shot or something simple.

I chose the hard truth.

I mean seriously, your version of this is that Flavor Leaf and I, two of the best scum players on site, got together and decided to make a huge, stinky claim without basis, while drawing obvious lines connecting ourselves, with the blessing of Jingle and Dannflor, who are putting in massive effort to fake a solve.

That’s literally what you’re insisting.

[Pine]

“Done nothing to find scum”

Oh please, I just reposted a multi-page solve with both Towncases and scumcases.

[Thestatusquo]

Good players can make mistakes. "Did a bad thing so they are town because they are so good" is a bad argument and you know it. I think either you claimed your real role as scum or you just didn't notice that everything else was x shot.

I'm not sold on FL being your partner, I think its the most likely scenario. Again, because good players can make mistakes.

Your "multi page solve" was today, while you were under immense pressure. Before then you had shown absolutely no interest in trying to case the game.

And your multi page solve is a lot of words to say "the conf town players are conf town and the non-me and FL players are in the PoE" essentially.

[Pine]

My multipage solve was quotes from days ago

[NorwegianboyEE]

Admitting your claim is bad but that makes you town, is quite the stretch and wholly unconvincing as TSQ says.
And you’re right, you should have chosen X-shot or something simple. But you didn’t, and now you messed up.

[Pine]

With all due respect, I’m not trying to persuade you.

My claim isn’t bad, it’s the truth. It is, however, awkward and clunky. That’s the setup’s fault, not mine.

[Ramcius]

Did anyone came up with good explanation for a strongman, if there is only 2 shots of doc? Or even if there one shot of doc, if FL is scum too as some people claims

[Pine]

Their explanation is that 2 doc and 2 Commuter justifies it.