TM 2021: A normal roguelike

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Post Post #2275  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:41 am

This game is kind of stuck in a dead end rn
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Post Post #2276  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:42 am

Hectic is hardvouching Ydrasse

Reckoner is hardvouching xofelf and DeasVail

Unless one of them is scum and/or terribly wrong about their reads, that leaves Adorable and Aristophanes for me
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Post Post #2277  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:43 am

Can we trust the scumteam is Ari and Ado or do we have to admit there's scum among those townread circles?
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Post Post #2278  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:47 am

I can easily see an Aristophanes and Adorable scumteam. Though, kinda worries me the possibility we're losing this game because of a wrong townread.
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Post Post #2279  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:16 pm

@Aristophanes: Jingle is the only person to have helped you with this game? Dann hasn't read or commented on it at all?

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Post Post #2280  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:17 pm

@Creature:

In post 1864, Creature wrote:
In post 1863, Datisi wrote:why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

Did DGB chip in on her take on Deas around this time? What was it?



In post 1995, Creature wrote:VOTE: Adorable

Why'd you make this vote, considering your team had this opinion:

In post 1689, Creature wrote:I townread Datisi and Hectic. My team is strongly townread Adorable. Maybe I can start from here.

What changed?

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Post Post #2281  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:22 pm

In post 2273, DeasVail wrote:I haven't had as much time as I was hoping for today but I've looked over Creature and something I'm interested in discussing:
- Why is Creature as scum the first to unvote me from E-1 Day 2? (Switching to Adorable who I think would b a very unlikely elim from scum's PoV) It's the start of what made my elim wagon no longer viable for Day 2 and seems like an unnecessary risk for scum. Creature certainly wouldn't have been immune to a quick wagon and I probably would not have been considered the sort of person by scum that could just be eliminated later. (I would also suggest that a Creature scumflip would make me very unlikely to be scum but that could be a matter of opinion. At the very least, I think Creature-scum probably thinks that if he flips before I do then I'm much harder to miselim.

You think so? I don't see any talk of Creature being the possible CFD (Crazy Fire Drill) by any players around that time. Maybe he felt safe in his position given he was really active around that time and seemed to be one of the main players trying to sort out a launch before the deadline.

As for why scum!him would want to move to Puff over you... hmm. I suppose he knows you're a VT and Puff is potentially another role to out? Or maybe he didn't want to be on the mislaunch end of day and assumed you'd still go through.
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Post Post #2282  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:24 pm

In post 2267, Ydrasse wrote:i am very tired and have been lately, sorry about this, but i did wanna say that im like... almost positive im not being pocketed.

its not like the worry hasnt been on my mind bc like, in theory hectic has me right where he wants me if hes scum: hes done the most to defend me where he literally did not have to at all, and for like... what benefit? a long term pocket for endgame? doesnt he stress out about how this looks and appears because hes going hard for me for reasons that people are consistently going ??? at. to me it makes more sense to do that because he is town and like... idk i dont wanna get deep into meta but he knows how i play better than anyone else and he can read me like a book LMAO. i can't really do the same as well in return + have scumread him incorrectly before but this game, it'd be like. if he's playing scum he's playing the "okay let's just play messy as i want" sort of thing for how yesterday's eod went. it was chaotic sure and it looks very apparent after the fact that he was spinning the merry go round but to me he is just trying to find the best person to elim, and is re-evaluating in the places where he isnt as strong to try and figure shit out

uhhh. so yeah, thats that, if im being pocketed im the biggest fool in the world and im going to kill him after this game so this is his one warning but thats not really in the realm of possibility... barring the way that he helped to take down rce when he didnt have to, the way hes been willing to like... not just steamroll through elims on people he sussed (deas comes 2 mind) and gives them room, all that. i get him wanting to not deal w it because if i was in his shoes id be pissed people doubted me lmfao. he's really just town this game and i don't think that's the place to be hunting. i'd say right now but i also just dont think you ever go there... ever, to elim?

so ye

You're right btw. My vocal confidence/defence of you isn't one that hasn't done me many favours in looking towny. I'd probably defend you as scum, but definitely not to this extent

Glad I've deep pocketed you though. I'll save you for the 3p lylo

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Post Post #2283  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:25 pm

In post 2282, Augustus Caesar wrote:isn't one that hasn't done me many favours in looking towny

*isn't one that's done me many favours in looking towny

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Post Post #2284  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:07 pm

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:Also why wouldn't Grumpy Cat have posted this? They were in Backrooms with Puff and it would make sense from them! At least keep your alt-knowledge straight bro :P

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Post Post #2285  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:28 pm

This post is easier to understand and read if you open up Ari's ISO alongside it, and then read it while using this as reference.

o is null
+ means slight townping
++ is moderate townping
+++ is strong townping
= means slight scumping
and so on


+ unafraid to jump on/how that looks
o
o
o
o
== fillery question
o
= he can look this up easily himself
o

It is at this point I realise there is absolutely no use of including the posts that are null. Only including posts which give town/scumpings from this point onward

+ pointing me straight to his best scumgame in recent memory

= hmm, multiple arguments have been put forth on Puff being both towny and scummy, so this feels odd

== dislike the wording of "keep an eye on you". last part of that post really doesn't make sense. Ari is saying Puff is strange and easy to vote, and reck's vote shows what he means, therefore, reck is scummy for it. isn't that argument self-fulfilling? or something like that. i don't know the term for it.

= "easy slot to tunnel" is a misrep of Reck's approach towards me at this point, he doesn't think I'm scum

and - Breaking this up into segments, since they're meaty ones

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:The earlywagon on Sirius seems NAI entirely as it happened far too quickly to mean anything. I think the staying power of the votes might say something though.

+= Interesting assessment, but what does the staying power say

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:The Hectic intro was obviously a prewrite and the gimmick in the first few posts is to establish it. I'm not putting weight into them and will be disregarding the gimmick for the most part, as I have been when reading their posts.

= This isn't true, given . potentially sounds more like something Dannflor would tell him to say

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:Oh dear lord I'd actually not read Ydrasse/Hectic doing whatever it was they did with their alt storytelling interactions on pg 2 and I guess I actually owe Reck an apology.

= this made up a large part of page 2, if Ari isn't really reading properly, why say this:

In post 80, Aristophanes wrote:I don't think anyone else is active enough for a real early read yet


In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:That said pg 3 Hectic is towny and I think he has a good handle on the earlygame here. Switching abruptly from the blatant altposting to the actual game content posts is +town and I think it says a lot. Scum Hectic could easily have kept up the games and not said anything helpful there.

+ decent reasoning

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:This interaction, or lack thereof, gives me partner vibes on Datisi and Bulge, though we all know how reliable preflip associatives are especially this early in the game. I'll be keeping an eye on them regardless.

= oof, both Datisi and The Bulge were joking there and obviously not being serious. I don't like the attempt to form reads off of this

In post 367, Aristophanes wrote:I know I'm questioned later on my wording in response to my response to this response, but what I meant by Reck using this to tunnel them, as I believe I put it, is that if Reck sticks to the rage or commentary about this slot and thefact that Alts shouldn't be in this game and gimmicks are dumb rather than providing content I think that is scum indicative and a way to look busy without actually contributing. I haven't read what they've said after that response but I'm hoping they're *doing things* because otherwise this could indicate scum!Reck. I hope that makes things clearer here.

= mm, is that really likely considering Reck just said he wasn't going to read ANY of my posts? how would he keep up rage/commentary about a player he isn't reading?

In post 371, Aristophanes wrote:Adorable did a contradiction in RVS and followed it up with a flimsy reason based on their personal abilities and expectations within the game. I think that's fine tbh. I didn't read malice or intention to lie within the stream of posting. Is this a case of LAL? Because that's super weak, especially at such an early point in the game.

+ matches my thoughts about Puff at this point
= don't like the comparison to LAL

In post 371, Aristophanes wrote:Oh ew, what a weird question to UnoReverso.
Wtf is this??

+ fair prodding at this interaction

In post 371, Aristophanes wrote:Reck, like, what do you expect as an answer here? "Yep, I guess I did have a reason. Oops" is about all I can see them saying in response to that and like, who cares at this point? There's a lot more to comment on and question and being hung up on an omitted answer that can only really be one thing and was done during the RVS stages of the game is just too much man.

== mm, don't like this. why can't she give that reason? I think it's completely fair to prod Puff for this given she hasn't acknowledged the question or attempted to answer it, or given a reason for why she can't answer it. feels whiteknighty

That's the end of those meaty posts. By this point, I'm scumreading/disliking a lot of what Ari is posting, but also I'm actively worried that I'm confbiasing myself. I'm glad I'm doing this though. My previous read on Ari was literally "he's doing a lot of solving, scum!Ari does not solve to this extent at all. He must be town", so uh yeah, that was dumb.

= peta and Datisi both point out why Ari's partner read is dumb and he doubles down rather than seeing their point, don't like

In post 373, petapan wrote:no offense but it feels like you're forcing analysis here

yeah, that's exactly what it feels like, peta

++ this LEGENDARY post. the one where Ari talks directly about beeboy and soft defends him. if he's scum here, he's making himself look terrible with this defence. I just feel like scum are so much less likely to defend a completely inactive partner in this fashion. your argument is unlikely to convicne people otherwise when the partner is inactive, and it makes you look terrible if that person goes down. is this too scummy to be scum? idk. I still think this is more likely to come from ignorant town than bold scum. if Ari is scum, he was very careless in making this post, and cared more about making himself look towny with reasonable takes, rather than caring about how this made him look in terms of associations. maybe he expected beeboy to be replaced and the slot to be turned around and not launched day 1? who knows

I'm taking a break at this point

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Post Post #2286  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:44 pm

Alright, BACK into the fray

- Another meaty post, so will be breaking it up into sections

In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:Oh good, nothing to say from page 8. Just past game meta arguments that Idgaf about from Datisi/Bulge, Adorable saying whatever, and the weird conclusion of the Sirius/Bulge thing that again makes Bulge look bad. Might have to case Bulge after this tbh. Seems I keep coming back to them.

Also, Sirius, something AI would be really nice from you.
Thx.

+= Why does Ari sound so pissed off in general here? I recall Ari being friendlier/fluffier as scum, so this would be town-indicative, but it also feels a little forced here. i'm not sure

In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:Uh, this is kind of the hyperfocusing on one thing that I was worried about with Reck WRT Hectic. I think he's found a new target and honestly this is a pretty big red flag imo. FoS on you my friend.

+ honestly, that Reck post gave me the exact same vibes

In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:And as I asked Reck, what honestly do you expect their answer to be here? Everyone being stuck on this shit is legitimately stupid.

= puff can explain why her statements were contradictory, or at least talk about/acknowledge what everyone's on her case for. this might be a case of difference in tmi; where town can see the obvious problems with Puff's statements, but scum!Ari is informed of her being town, and so immediately knows she's just being dumb and not to worry about malice. and again, tone feels weirdly annoyed coming from you, Ari

In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:This. Scum also wouldn't have avoided the question like they did. This is why the pages of uproar about it are so fucking ridiculous and likely have scum hiding within the uproarious bunch imo.

= peta only says that after Puff clarifies more on it, which allowed people to actually read more into her alignment. i dislike the take on the pages of "uproar", when they were necessary to getting those responses out of Puff to allow us to townread her

- ANOTHER meaty post. grumble grumble

In post 381, Aristophanes wrote:I think I just answered this in my most recent post, but I think you are strongly on the town side of things. Your followups were reasonable, the explanation here as to why you asked them things specifically is good, and I like the say you reacted to and rethought your trajectory in that slot in particular.

+ good read

oh, I don't actually have any other pings for this post

-
In post 384, Aristophanes wrote:No problem. I mean I wouldn't say no to that but also your conviction here combined with a decently budded townread on you leaves me willing to believe you on this. I don't think it will be my vote at the moment, but I may join you later.

== eek, this reads partnery though. the "I don't think it will be my vote at the moment, but I may join you later." part. ari is being very careful about the way he talks about this slot here, which I noticed in this post too:

In post 381, Aristophanes wrote:I suppose this is a reasonable point. I don't think I have recent enough beeboy!scum meta to say anything either way here. People say the same about me when I can't produce and it's definitely something worth looking at, but I'd expect it to happen after at least a second proddodge.


-
In post 393, Aristophanes wrote:Datisi, well, I want to scumread you for tone but I also am fairly certain I'm wrong. I think we're going to be at odds for a lot of this game but I also don't think being at odds is necessarily scummy. Like, you're not null because I don't have a read on you but because my read is entirely conflicted.

+ I like how's he conflicted about Datisi here. he gets scumpings from their tone but knows better than to think it scummy

== what on earth is this comparison of beeboy to xofelf? the difference is very obvious; xofelf has posted actual content, while beeboy has simply prod doged. this also looks too scummy to be scum, but the actual reasoning being so bad here makes me lean maybe it just scum

= interesting, Ari jumps at Sirius for defending beeboy here via activity, but Sirius doing this is only sus if beeboy is scum, which Ari should not be sure about according to what he's said in his previous posts. gives the impression Ari already knows beeboy is scum which makes this Sirius defence suspicious to him

+ calling out beeboy immediately disappearing again

Overall, I actually read the way he talks about beeboy partnery now. It feels stilted and like he's trying really hard to sound reasonable/uninformed about him. I'm like halfway through his ISO.... time for another break. It's probably a good thing if I split this up into multiple posts anyway, and I'm not spoilering because I want people to actually read this and not miss it.

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Post Post #2287  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:04 pm

In post 2276, Creature wrote:Hectic is hardvouching Ydrasse

Reckoner is hardvouching xofelf and DeasVail

Unless one of them is scum and/or terribly wrong about their reads, that leaves Adorable and Aristophanes for me


You should be developing your own reads rather than following the reads of the majority because sometimes another town player will be town reading a scum player.

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Post Post #2288  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:20 pm

In post 2287, Adorable wrote:
In post 2276, Creature wrote:Hectic is hardvouching Ydrasse

Reckoner is hardvouching xofelf and DeasVail

Unless one of them is scum and/or terribly wrong about their reads, that leaves Adorable and Aristophanes for me


You should be developing your own reads rather than following the reads of the majority because sometimes another town player will be town reading a scum player.

Then it os Reckoner towbreading scum!xofelf or Reckoner is scum. Maybe both are harddefending each other.
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Post Post #2289  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:25 pm

Creature, why do you ignore me

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Post Post #2290  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:45 pm

Maybe because it's gonna be just a boring defense
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Post Post #2291  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:46 pm

I think I pointed somewhere why Adorable was scumread
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Post Post #2292  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:46 pm

In post 2002, Creature wrote:Also Adorable's vote on RCE D1 looks the most likely a bus considering it was done after the selfvote and never unvoted.

Oh, I explained it after voting
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Post Post #2293  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:48 pm

That reasoning came up in my team's PT before I even voted Adorable, but I only brought it to this thread after.
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Post Post #2294  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:00 pm

- this post is a doozy. oh god, I just searched 'doozy' up and it's an informal term used in the US. what is this site doing to me

In post 609, Aristophanes wrote:Pretty sure we're set on beeboy and while my stance that it's mostly NAI remains, I'm not actually against it.

=== huge yikes, considering this:
In post 381, Aristophanes wrote:I don't think I have recent enough beeboy!scum meta to say anything either way here.

If he doesn't have meta on beeboy, then why is his stance NAI when peta is clearly highlighting meta on why it's scum-indicative for beeboy specifically? I don't know the scum motivation behind Ari making these stances, but they just feel fake based on what he's said prior, and the context of the thread

In post 609, Aristophanes wrote:I do find it interesting that Reck voting there while saying "meta is trash, but lets yeet this guy" is mostly accepted while my saying "screw meta and let him have a chance" is mostly not accepted but I think that's also probably not as telling as I'd like it to be.

= slight misrep. Reck doesn't want to yeet him because of meta, it's because he's doing absolutely nothing

In post 609, Aristophanes wrote:Uh, mostly okay with day ending whenever so we don't stall out and will vote beebs is I need to despite them being as null as one can be.

= again, why not a single comment or thought on the meta arguments? why still null?

In post 609, Aristophanes wrote:Like the more I think about it while writing this the more it looks to me like a blatant misrep of me in order to discredit me and this read I have on you, and I'm not cool with it.
I would legit Eliminate you if it were my choice. Alas it's not and I must therefore drop it for now. But this is not going away. I am already regretting the unvote I've made in this post and it hasn't even been posted yet.
In post 616, Aristophanes wrote:I literally backed off because it's not going to happen today. I'm not shading you, I'm scumreading youm but I have enough sense not to drag us into a 1v1 right now.

= This is contradictory. Ari says he unvoted despite scumreading Reck because he doesn't want to distract everyone with a 1v1 right now. However, the vote is basically meaningless; it's the words Ari is posting and what he's saying about Reck which will start a 1v1 (which it does). I'm not sure how Ari doesn't realise this

In post 616, Aristophanes wrote:Maybe I should put that aside since it looks like beeboy is the Elim and I don't want to clutter the game at a point when the day is winding to a natural close. Maybe I even said all that in that very post! :O

I literally backed off because it's not going to happen today. I'm not shading you, I'm scumreading youm but I have enough sense not to drag us into a 1v1 right now.

= see, this is fair if Ari actually wants to do this, but it really does not line up with what Ari is saying in - he's explaining why he thinks Reck is scum and saying how he would eliminate him if it were up to him. that's not backing off

I feel good enough about this at this point to:

VOTE: Aristophanes

I also feel like my current mindset is making me read most of what Ari is posting beyond this point as scummy, because I'm subconsciously trying to find flaws/scum-motivation for his posts because I think he's scum. I will try and be as OBJECTIVE as possible, but it's tough

In post 1157, Aristophanes wrote:Hi, yeah that's fine. Vote me if you like. I am in training sessions all day today and tomorrow but I'm in a good mindset to get back into this today so I should have a few actual posts tonight. I was just really not in the mental place to be here the past few days.

= Strange that this in response to Reck, a slot he strongly scumreads

In post 1401, Aristophanes wrote:Reck's apparent murderboner for me is meh. I'll have to reread it but I guess I don't see that coming as hard from scum as it is here.

= but but but:
In post 378, Aristophanes wrote:Uh, this is kind of the hyperfocusing on one thing that I was worried about with Reck WRT Hectic. I think he's found a new target and honestly this is a pretty big red flag imo. FoS on you my friend.

Isn't this exactly what Ari was worried about scum!Reck doing this game? Tunnelling/hyperfocusing on one slot? Now that Reck's doing it to Ari, he's changed his mind?

+= I think the outrage here is reasonable when talking about Sirius. it's eventually the reason I wanted to go Sirius as well. i dislike the over the top tone

+ nuanced and believable take on Ydrasse's shitposting

1592 -
In post 1592, Aristophanes wrote:I thought I already responded to this but if not, here we go. Jingle did think that the meta argument for beeboy was good despite Datisi's linked example being not the greatest. He also told me they'd like to see RCE go as RCE did nothing towny with the slot.

= If Jingle thought the meta argument was good, why did he continue harping on about the slot being NAI/null

I'm at and my eyes are glossing over and it's hard to take in what I'm reading. Conclusion is that I feel good about Ari being scum. May finish the ISO-dive at a later point.

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Post Post #2295  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:05 pm

In post 2293, Creature wrote:That reasoning came up in my team's PT before I even voted Adorable, but I only brought it to this thread after.

Okay, thanks.

What is DGB's read on Deas now?

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Post Post #2296  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:24 pm

In post 2295, Augustus Caesar wrote:
In post 2293, Creature wrote:That reasoning came up in my team's PT before I even voted Adorable, but I only brought it to this thread after.

Okay, thanks.

What is DGB's read on Deas now?

Last I remember DGB screamed DeasVail is town after he reacted to their nearlynch.
Sigh

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Post Post #2297  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:41 pm

In post 2292, Creature wrote:
In post 2002, Creature wrote:Also Adorable's vote on RCE D1 looks the most likely a bus considering it was done after the selfvote and never unvoted.

Oh, I explained it after voting


I'm not able to understand what you are saying here. How does that make me scum when I was scum reading Reck and afterwards there was a post Reck said that made me town read them and I voted beeboy next since he was being suspicious.

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Post Post #2298  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:50 pm

Hope you guys actually read my dive on Ari lol

Any thoughts would be nice

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Post Post #2299  (ISO)  » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:59 pm

It's a really good dive on Ari, it really is. I'm in a weird spot where the idea of you misleading people is very loud in my head, but also like you make some real good points regularly that I can't entirely ignore either. I do think you pretty much hit the nail on the head about all of the really weird Ari behaviour so far though, and I really don't hate that as an option. And I like how many of the things were this game relevant, thank you <3.

VOTE: Ari
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