TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Bell]

Hello folks. Skimming. Anything super important I should know?

[Bell]

When I joined I thought I was joining into the last game and when I went to the 83rd page or something it sounded like Albert gave out his role PM and the game had to be restarted.

[Bell]

good vibes first few pages.
Hercule is towning it up out the gate.
Everyone else is chillin.

[Bell]

What's wrong with spoon feeding.

[Bell]

Page 39.

Mastina
Danflorr.
Hopkirk.
LLD.
DGB
A50
JJH
Agar
Ythan
Hercule
Oka

Aside: Dunnstrall: Seems different, more communicative. Can't put a finger on an agenda though, so just null.

These are just initial impressions, not from team. I should be caught up by tomorrow.

[Bell]

So

Bell is scum

Thankfully, no.

[Bell]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh.

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

[Bell]

Dann has a point on Ythan not giving a shit given their ISO.
Their defense is remarkable in that it's denying that they gave a shit in either game.
I'm not sure this is the gotcha that Oka thinks it is though.

[Bell]

Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

not surprised lol

i did try very hard to emulate my town meta that one game i played with her

bell do you not have a read on me? lol

You seem sort of like you're playing up that you don't know who the scum are. But then you come out with a post that seems genuine or honest.
Love a good fence sit, my natural habitat.

[Bell]

bell did you read last game what are you comparing firebrand to? epilogue?

Yep, epilogue. You literally never let up and I hated you for that. <3.

[Bell]

Well, at least Oka seems happy to be here since he can't seem to leave.

[Bell]

Oka, do you like being scum or town more? I can't remember if I asked you that before.
Same question to Ythan.

[Bell]

LLD hates being scum read tho

[Bell]

LLD hates being scum read tho

I don't understand how she flips her townread on Mastina to a hard scumread based on the reasoning in 2257. It seems to me like they're arguing over semantics?

I don't truly understand LLD's process even though I've played quite a few games with her at this point.
What I see is someone who is denying that she is scum reading or dead sure on 3 players as scum, accusing Mastina of conflating all 3 players into a scum list of hers.
I'm not sure if she's intentionally overemphasizing how significant this is. Given misrepresentation isn't terribly uncommon from either alignment. People have been talking about p e r f o r m a n c e this game and I'm in the everybody performs camp.
LLD says they have 4 modes/personas/approaches and that this is one of them. I actually do see similarities between her push on noraa in a game on death curse and this one though the reasons are different, the approach is the same.

I'm merely pointing out that i LLD does not like being scum read and that her reaction might be explained in part by demanding a space or environment she's comfortable with.

[Bell]

TL on Titus who seems to be progressing in their reads. She seems to be changing styles a lot lately. Null everybody else in that list.

[Bell]

@Xtom: Lilith said you were town earlier in our thread and I didn't mention it. also she told me to tell you to shove it.
At the time of making that post I was around page 40 and I don't believe you had made any significant contributions by that point. Nor did I say those were their only reads.

@Dunnstrall, quickest way to ask someone how they play as scum is to ask that person directly. okay. other than me, who do you want gone?

S_S and I both agree that Cephrir is scum.

VOTE: Cephrir

P.S. While I was writing this Lilith popped in to say they took their town read on xtom back. Too much shade on TW while they were looking for a replacement for a week. Early TR was due to effort but effort!=Town.
Also that Auro isn't in any games because theirs finished which makes sense given Lilith is similarly here talking to me about stuff with moe activity while the others seem relatively overwhelmed with their own games, also...Meh.
They're making a brianskies good faith bad faith argument, or a fairness argument which I don't care much about. I'm here mostly to play as me and I respect their opinions and all, but I don't care much about fairness.

[Bell]

For cephrir yeah,
too many posts 'not giving a shit because I rolled town this game'
and I hate mastina posting posts.

It just feels like someone grasping at something to talk about and deciding to present themselves a certain way.

[Bell]

Whenever anyone replaces in their posts will get brushed through with a fine-toothed comb and usually be read negatively unless they're super high effort.
It is not a personality read, if it were a personality read I would be complaining about how obnoxious those posts were, rather than saying I don't think as town Cephrir would be so focused on these two topics beyond a simple remark or two. I think saying you don't give a shit how you look is a pretty blatant lie in mafia.

[Bell]

This isn't a complex take. I'm simply saying that Cephrir is posturing and I think his early posturing was distinctly scum in motivation.

[Bell]

I giggled.

Dw, my obnoxiousness tolerance is high. FWIW it's a good sign that you think I think you're obnoxious since town seem to take it more personally and tend to assign it as dislike when I was more talking the "heh, I don't give a shit, I'm town and town don't give a shit, right guys?" as more of a sticking point.

Well that and that I swear half the time someone is like yay I rolled town guys whew it's actually scum saying it. Except when it's me. Then I'm totally town that game >.>

[Bell]

I got nothing on Ythan.
They refuse to answer the questions I would usually ask to get a read on them and calling it spoon feeding.
At least the owl had reads and eventually gave in and spoon fed me.

[Bell]

Sorry hop i dont want to answer ur questions do i have to

Bell we have 2 days left. Nobody wants to flip ceph.

Okay, why is Ythan scum? As either alignment they seem to have little feelings of obligation toward their team. I don't see anything.

[Bell]

For cephrir yeah,
too many posts 'not giving a shit because I rolled town this game'
and I hate mastina posting posts.

It just feels like someone grasping at something to talk about and deciding to present themselves a certain way.

I'm not really vibing with this.

I get what you're saying, but it feels like an insignificant thing to push an elim for at this stage. Ceph's posting has generally felt Townie to me.

It's day 1. There's not a lot that's really obviously significant until later.

Which posts by Cephrir have felt townie to you?

Mastina's string of recent posts and earlier really have what was missing from

*mumbles*

I remain comfortable with TRing her and putting her out of consideration for the day phase.
I will not be sheeping her though as I have witnessed her lead wagons twice day 1 and both were on town. A lot of her recent analysis feels pretty extraneous and only helpful if a number of her assumptions are correct. Which is great because it makes her seem townie but feels like a lost cause when it comes to accuracy.

[Bell]

V/la
Limited access.
Beach for 2-3 days.

VOTE: Ythan

[Bell]

Still here.
I’m not voting LLD. This is kinda a half assed v/la I can still phone post.

[Bell]

I’m not voting old. Ythan isn’t doing anything, claim time.it you can read dab based off of what they posted this game hats off to you.

[Bell]

is literally everyone but me voting ythan doing it as a compromise/nullflip -_-

Dice roll, totally different.
Just whatever you do don’t think I’m crumbing if I randomly capitalize my letters. I’m not.

[Bell]

These wagons are going from meh to godawful.

[Bell]

It's self-evident. We should have gotten a claim out of someone days ago. Shouldn't you of all people be the most upset with the game going to deadline like this?

[Bell]

Okay, but I can't force people to vote. IV has felt off these last few pages but that's not happening. I'm skeptical he forgot Hopkirk was in this game given he has, what, 200 posts by this point?
I will be available for a deadline vote.

[Bell]

You're bitching about my bitching.

[Bell]

I enjoy you this game Cephrir. You've gotten 2 laughs out of me this game. That's rare. Thanks for your sense of humor(not sarcasm).

I am willing to vote DGB to push the game forward. But the wagons keep shifting every 5 seconds. What are they even at?

[Bell]

Eh, I'm not really sure because I'm just kind of in the gray area of availability but I wanted to make it clear that's what I was.

[Bell]

VOTE: DGB

[Bell]

Like jesus fuck, if you want to complain about how mafia on this site sucks, there's an entire General Discussion forum for that.

P-Edit: It's still LLD vs DGB.

I like Mafia and I don't think this site sucks.
I'm just surprised that this game with this plist has let the game degrade to this point.
I get your frustration with my posting style being somewhat short and hard to read but that's just your playstyle and this is mine. I don't write wall cases and spell things out like you do, nor do I want to. My points are often interspersed throughout my posts. But my trajectories are fairly clear (well except when I flip on a dime).

I'm just filling the role of telling people to get a move on in my own bitchy way because that's roughly what the game needs.

[Bell]

That is a hell of a biased case, given LLD in every game I've been in with her (except maybe xenoblade) she's bargained like that.

[Bell]

That is a hell of a biased case, given LLD in every game I've been in with her (except maybe xenoblade) she's bargained like that.

Meta is trash. Just being a good sport with the efforts of Team Fakeclaim Processing Department.

That's why I ended the post with a parrot .gif.

This isn't meta, this is intentionally not bothering to read her town games, there was no comparison. It was "hey guys LLD posted this stuff before in a different game in which they were scum. Ergo they must be scum this time!1123!1"

[Bell]

It was the equivalent of a rag hit job.

[Bell]

i don't think whether the elimination target claims or not matters tbh

Bad take.

[Bell]

"CFD'ing or to "CFD" someone is when a group of voters suddenly switch votes right before end of day to someone who was previously not in contention to be lynched." - A mafia wiki.

I haven't a clue why Chinese fire drills are different from or unique from fire drills of any other nationality.

[Bell]

That almost definitely needs to be workshopped into a different acronym.
It makes Chinese people sound disorganized because they're Chinese.

I am a accredited with the language police as a volunteer, why do you ask?

[Bell]

Hi,
Driving home in an hour then full attention.

I have never seen Dunnstrall effort this hard. In addition, in the individual comments nice touch on talking about flipping DGB when DGB is dead if scum.
What's a neopolitan?

[Bell]

JJH, why did you want to sheep Mastina this game? Is there any prior indication in your posts that you agreed with Mastina on their reads?

[Bell]

@A50, S_S wants you to better define your question he thinks it's too broad and doesn't know how to answer.

[Bell]

*blink*

[Bell]

Her title is literally false prophet.

[Bell]

I'm deciding whether I believe you or not and whether Mastina is bad town or scum.
You didn't strike me as the sheeping type. Would you sheep as a cover to get a miselim?

[Bell]

I was asking historically, Okay. So you've switched to a lazier plastyle you think Mastina is town and you agreed with her reasoning and she was trying harder than you, you respect her as a player so you sheeped her unto LLD.
You said you didn't want to follow Mastina uncritically this day phase, which is why you are reconsidering your Titus scum read and unvoted her.

You've expressed your opinions more than is typical from previous games I've played with you, such as scum not liking to draw attention to themselves or overreact or demand a case on them. A broad generalization really.
Or the rather novel take that mafia playrs aren't egotistical which goes...nowhere really?

@Mastina when was the last time you rolled scum from a completed game?

[Bell]

Yes, and then you unvoted Titus while saying you could go for me and needed to think for yourself(?) or something and stop sheeping Mastina which is where my question came from. Since I didn't see much of an indication you were sheeping Mastina besides voting along side them. Or at least I don't think you characterized yourself that way in the previous day phase.

[Bell]

Did they make those arguments in direct reference to you or did you jump into the opinion arena?
I forgot.

[Bell]

What games have we played together in, Bell?

Mysterybox of silversix
And Why Gun?

I think.

[Bell]

Meh, I think I'm reaching. I don't really think you were intentionally twiddling your thumbs or at least it feels unlikely.
Have you been scum since your new lazier playstyle took hold, or?

[Bell]

Well, you have a story and internal narrative. So you're doing your homework if you're scum at least.

Thanks for not interrupting Dunn.

[Bell]

I'll poke around somewhere else, but I'm dead tired today.
Dunnstrall could be a powerwolf but that feels obnoxious to say. Since it's just another way of saying too town to be town. But it would line up with Lilith's thoughts for him to control the pool to an extent.

[Bell]

I think IV is town and Winterflakes belongs in the blackhole tier.
I don't think a Dunnstral vote should almost ever be a blackmark against someone, esp. day 1.

The IV town read is based less on meta and more on content being relatively varied, a broad focus on the game and I don't really think his anxiousness is faked anymore.

Outside of that, just from meta, I know there are like, 2-4 IV playstyles. I've never played with IV scum, but I do know that his town game can vary and that he goes from super anxious town to weirdly confident shit posting. His votes jumping around might be due more to playstyle than opportunism. But it's possibly just opportunism, lol.

I believe Mastina has limited connection due to power outages due to the cold-ass weather I want to focus more on her and think we're just sort of ignoring her from effort.

I think Luca has been in catch up mode for a suspiciously long time. I would normally have caught up over night if I hadn't been on vacation. What's your excuse Luca?

[Bell]

S_S says that Winter/Oka and Winter/A50 aren't partners. I assume somebody in thread asked that.
Post was from yesterday.

[Bell]

somebody towncase a50 for me ty

He's not struggling to post. That's all I got. Also, I've never really seen him effort as scum. I would consider that Listicle an example of effort.
But it's probably faster for him just to town case himself.

P.S.: Supposedly this isn't true, but from the 4 games I've played with him (2 scum, 2 town). it kind of was.

[Bell]

I'm talking overall. I don't recall A50 ever being terribly active. He just struggles to fake solve or has memory/engagement issues.
But I really think it's better if he just says it himself. Since he might not see himself that way. For me it seems reliable as a tell for A50 tho.

[Bell]

Why is luca in your strong town's hoppityhopkirk?

[Bell]

Why is luca in your strong town's hoppityhopkirk?

oh you weren't in the last game, luca replaced into a slot that's obvtown based on the previous abandoned large normal 1

Hercule was scum in that and his tone was stilted throughout. it felt forced in a way that i was trying to sort whether it was personality (the kind of big ego, i'm always right, listen to my walls newbs player) or scum being uncomfortable and having trouble enjoying the game/feeling forced. i read enjoyment vibing as town leaning in general to some extent btw

this game Herc was the complete opposite in a way that i don't think is fakeable. he was vibing early on and his posting felt consistently natural in a way that i don't think scum-using-a-different-style-intentionally could fake that consistently. hectic agreed completely with this that scum!herc wouldn't be able to fake a dramatic playstyle shift with no slip ups that well

like read herc's previous game then his early posts here and tell me that's ever the same alignment

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact Lucas has been catching up for forever. How many days has it been since he's replaced into this game? Didn't he replace in before me?

@Lucas, do you prefer being town or scum? Does it usually take you this long to catch up in a game of mafia? Are there extenuating circumstances?

[Bell]

Why not?
They both share the same alignment but that's not an excuse to stop reading them because Hercule made some townie early posts. Reads should be fluid based on the behavior of a slot as a whole.

[Bell]

do you not get the concept of locktown or something

Yes, I just think you locktown people too easily. I think you're town probably making another early clear based off of an assumption of what someone is and isn't capable of. Based on Hercules own posting they seem to take pride in their play as either alignment. Appearing different is a very difficult line to toe, I certainly can't do it. But that doesn't mean Hercule couldn't.

[Bell]

I think it's suspicious he hasn't caught up. I also know that replace outs are statistically more likely to be mafia. So from that perspective, yes I guess I'm scum reading him. Mostly I'm just trying to dig through the rubble.

@Titus why?

[Bell]

Because their explanation is pending. Though also, maybe a little zmuffinman influence(he rarely votes and just talks instead until he feels confident in a read). sometimes I vote, sometimes I don't.

[Bell]

Spoiler: lewds

some of our night chat for you guys

x: if dann doesnt come back and vote after his commitment its a scumclaim
a: now im worried shes town because my reads are usually incorrect
x: ya but we need this elimination or we'll never move on
a: mhm, i only mean it will be annoying
x: if theyre both town a50 is probably scum
ok nice she got hammered
a: hope implo posts before i go to bed
x: she was town :sadface:
dont understand the way she played here
so do we think the eod wagons are both town?
a50 being absent for eod is very scummy
as are slots that didnt seem to mind which way it went
a: lld had a bad game. happens to everyone.
i suppose a50 just wasnt online?
x: town are usually more motivated to make themselves available for deadline. or if you're going to be busy, make sure to place a more productive vote beforehand. you're justifying anti town play.
a: not sure, i dont really think of him as a guy that cares that much about the games he plays
so who were the players that didn't mind who got eliminated?
x: winter, he talked abt lld being a good data lim, but then was like lol i'll vote dgb indtead
also dann, oka. they said really early they would change their vote. there was no chance of me voting dgb there.
a: should we put any weight on anything lld said? im not seeing iv scum at all
x: im not listenign to anything from her. she played terrible. she said WE were scum.
a: ugh, i bet dgb gets hard pushed on d2
x: i doubt it
perhaps a little
i think people will come to the conclusion the wagons were tvt, lots of lackerluster/absent players at deadline too
thoughts on titus? i thought the way she deliberated on her vote and came to a decision looked townie
we should reassess our reads probably
do you agree that a50 and wf should be pushed?
a: i feel very unsure about everything at the moment
WF looks bad, i agree
x: bell is also scummy
a: i dont know for a50. i cant read him. i think you may be seeing more calculation in him than actually exists. ive no reason to call him town, however.
bell sounds like he knew lld and dgb are town
x: today was pretty humorous, looking back
the idea of scum not doing much for most of the day is probably on the right lines?

a: my biggest sr is WF, followed by bell

Why would you spoiler this?

[Bell]

I sure could vote him and unvote him.
I could.

[Bell]

Agar:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1811.07851.pdf

Page 4.

[Bell]

I mean it's only a 6%, difference but compared to the bullshit we make up on the fly that's really good.

[Bell]

^ It's hard for everyone.

Job training for a month, 6 hours a day everyday. I'm not sure how it will effect activity besides negatively.

VOTE: Luca

No, you were pretty clear that you were covering old ground. You've had a small burst to activity but the takes are lukewarm.

[Bell]

^ It's hard for everyone.

Job training for a month, 6 hours a day everyday. I'm not sure how it will effect activity besides negatively.

VOTE: Luca

No, you were pretty clear that you were covering old ground. You've had a small burst to activity but the takes are lukewarm.

Bell humor me for a second, what do Datisi and lilith2013 think of me rn lol

don't ask them if they haven't given an opinion already, probably not that productive, i'm just curious

Lilith says they're scum reading you, they feel your reaction to the beginning of the day in response to Dunnstrall was really weird and they don't think you're as obvtown as you made yourself out to be.
Lilith felt D1 you played up the cute and clueless angle as (duck?) liked to put it. They're conflicted on whether they just don't like your playstyle, they think in a vacuum without a previous game they'd lean that you were more likely scum than town and felt you're more force/anxious here than you were in the previous game.

Datasi is playing a videogame.

[Bell]

Why isn't Oka voting anyone

[Bell]

3908 is a red flag for me as they’re using a single premise to sort everyone.

Then they posted that huge ass wall and I felt despair because even if they’re actually scum I’m not going to be able to spend the time necessary to shout them down.

[Bell]

3907*

[Bell]

Well I'm exhausted and going to bed. But it looks like A50 fake claimed a guilty on Ythan?

Okay. But y tho?
A50/Ythan weird scum gambit maybe?

Yep, I got a headache thinking about the motivations for each possible combination. It feels dumb.

[Bell]

I'm aware.

[Bell]

Well I'm exhausted and going to bed. But it looks like A50 fake claimed a guilty on Ythan? Okay. But y tho? A50/Ythan weird scum gambit maybe? Yep, I got a headache thinking about the motivations for each possible combination. It feels dumb.

This is a slot people are not wagoning right now.
This is a slot who we're not wagoning, in favor of wagoning players like Ythan who had an insanely town reaction and Almost50 who almost certainly doesn't pull this stunt if he's scum (it conftowns Ythan which is bad for the scum and puts him in the spotlight which is bad for the scum if he's scum), and Luca Blight for ???.

This is the slot people are glossing over, in spite of his reaction to the A50/Ythan reaction instead of being "okay they're both town", being, "maybe they're both scum?".

We gave the worst a pass on D1 because he replaced out. If he was struggling in this game, which his replace-out proved he was, his lackluster content was excusable.

We gave Bell a pass on D1 because when he replaced in, we were near deadline, so it was understandable that Bell, as a replacement, especially as a player who takes time to get going, would be lackluster at the end of D1 upon replacing in.

But Bell has no such excuse now.

Why is the Bell slot so lackluster even after Bell has had the time to get firmly established in the game?

Why is it a bad take and why do I feel like every time you post you're intentionally misleading people.

[Bell]

You yourself have taken similar positions on wagons in the past. You're intentionally ignoring those past experiences in service to your current reads.

[Bell]

You yourself have taken similar positions on wagons in the past. You're intentionally ignoring those past experiences in service to your current reads.

Oh I've called things scum theater before, sure, where things that people thought were TvT were SvS, sure enough.

None of those involved two slots heatedly going at each other, one of them fakeclaining a guilty on the other, the other doubling down on that making the one scum and claiming that as a VT the guilty was utterly impossible, and then the claimer retracting the guilty.

You don't see how a natural reaction to someone derailing a ythan wagon would be skepticism? You've called more complex wagons and plays wrongly and rightly in every conceivable combination. You're using rhetoric to argue this was too complex to be a scum gambit when the simplicity of the move is not nearly as complex as you're making it out to be. If you want to push, then push but you're clearly being dishonest in your presentation. Which does not help me sort you.

[Bell]

unrelated to the above, VOTE: Bell

What is it related to?

[Bell]

Ythan/A50 being scum together is only one possibility.
Another possibility is that it's wifom and he did it for town cred and thought if he goes down, you go down with him.
Or that he's town who tried to sort someone who was strongly suspected and possibly the miselimination today to derail it and you as scum or town performed admirably.

There are all kinds of scenarios.

All of those possible scenarios collectively gave me a headache.

[Bell]

I do't think it's outside the realm of possibility to coordinate a fake guilty into a fake, fake claim to generate a towny, tonal response.
It's just a variation of the fake hammer play.

[Bell]

Ythan, you're probably being unintentionally vague, but I haven't a clue what you're talking about. In regards to a third player connection, what timeline 'due time' refers to and how we would bag a second scum if A50 flipped beyond the normal association hunting are all hanging questions I have.

[Bell]

Did you happen to catch why I unvoted a50 when he retracted the claim?

I recall it being that you felt it would be appropriate for a vig to shoot imm to sort and we should hunt else where.

[Bell]

unrelated to the above, VOTE: Bell

What is it related to?

Well, I've been told you're an easy sort, yet I am thus far unimpressed, so.

Well, yeah. I can't spam post like I usually would. I'm busy.

[Bell]

I'm being intentionally vague! I'm not sure how clear to be so I hope you don't mind if I wait for more relevant parties to post and continue to be coy for the moment.

O.

[Bell]

Sometimes I feel like a dull note more than a sharp one.

[Bell]

Bell I think you could accomplish a lot by posting as much as possible right now if you're still clueless and are town.

I don't think I'm clueless anymore. I posted 4215 in response to my new understanding.

[Bell]

To be frank, Iconeum always scum reads me.

[Bell]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=85191&user_select% ... &start=200

oh jesus, i haven't even skimmed this iso but it's not making me feel better about you

This is a deeply confusing post.

I reiso'd Luca. I felt when he replaced in it took too long for him to catch up, that his reads were relatively vague and he seemed more interested in interpreting new interactions than developing a read, rather he used that to avoid putting a stance down in a catch up post. I also didn't like his vote on LLD last DP where he was just like, "I don't like LLD's posts" as a reason which bugged me. There's stuff in his iso ,that in retrospect, looks better than I thought. He's been relatively clear and upfront when interacting with others if not in his positions. But he's quite reactionary in his positions which I associate with scum.

Looking back I didn't really like how Oka corralled the votes last day phase, but deadline is a good excuse for all transgressions. He's doing the same thing today though.

Someone mentioned Hopkirk being disappointing this game, but he's quite proactive with developing his reads independently of others. He doesn't seem to be watching and waiting. He's a little on and off with his activity, rather he tends to have a burst of activity all at once then goes dead. If Hopkirk would like to explain that, that would help give me an idea of why his activity has been spotty.

Can the people scum reading me/voting me either link to their reasons for their scum reads on me or reiterate them.

[Bell]

So you think I'm lying about not receiving a message saying I was targeted?

I can see the train of thought.

I have an alternative take:

My read on Bell is improving.

Also, where did this come from
Because I can't think it came from Bell directly

It did. Scum!Bell doesn't try at all here. No need for him to.

Okay, but what points to Bell trying here? I was severely unimpressed by his catchup posts that even included team reads. And then he made an excuse for "all replacements are gonna be scummy."

Titus my main problem with you is you have these seemingly strong reads like LLD!town and the_worst!scum
but I haven't really seen you try to push these reads in any reasonably forceful way. I get not wanting to add noise to the thread but your actions don't seem to line up with what you're saying. Like, you've wound up on the same wagon as Bell, purportedly your strongest scum read. And as someone who self proclaims to pay a lot of attention to VCA, that feels off coming from you.

the only two people I genuinely scum read atm are [titus,

bell

]

But the REAL clincher:

I'm okay with letting Bell post some more for now,

I'm hoping he becomes more readable

one way

or another

What do you suppose "another" way to read Bell is?

VOTE: Mastina

You're playing unbelievably badly this game. It's more likely you're scum that just has a plan in mind than that you're honestly trying to read me or discern the truth behind anyone's actions this game. I don't care how detailed your cases are, you're being down right dishonest with your interpretation of events.

[Bell]

A50, if you want to call me useless
than you're going to have to accept you fucked up this game and misused your powerrole.

Protecting Titus for VCA when her VCA isn't even accurate and she's rarely if ever a threat to scum is just trash tier targeting. She is vulnerable to being eliminated as either alignment and is rarely night killed N1 to my knowledge.

[Bell]

VOTE: unvote

bell can you give like a reads list or something?
i have no idea what your opinion on most players is

I have some time so I went through the big four game JJH linked. I can categorize it as aggressive, non-anxious about their own reads, light on detail, high on safe unimaginative questions. The longest post he made was 5 lines. To contrast it with this game when I asked him questions there's an internal narrative set up here that wasn't there in that game. He seemed good about interacting with everyone in his previous games. His activity was higher, but he's given his reasons and those reasons are in line with his activity in, previous games I've played with him. I try to make as few assumptions as possible with meta, so this comparison I put little weight in. It's difficult to determine whether he's genuinely lost this game or if he's just positioning himself to fade out while other wagons build. He said he would post on the weekend, so hopefully he makes good on that. Light-town.

Agar has been good at setting up expectations in relation to his play and his limited schedule. I don't agree with his hopkirk read. I do think his takes are his own, that he's not following the zeitgeist, that his play is in line with his behavior from last time I played with him (a town whip so to speak) and that the discrepancies I noticed, he explained away to my satisfaction. I think he's been good about interacting with everyone whilst narrative building over only a few. Null to light town. Wish I had more, I don't.

I'm not comfortable yeeting Ythan for a vague claim that no one is countering.
Unlike, the titus protect the DGB shot was logical. People have been posting about DGB well past their death and it would have been a distraction/miselimination, though DGB flipping tracker was unfortunate.

To be clear, since I believe someone asked, I was null reading DGB, but free floating similarities in a previous game in which they were town, so I didn't know. I felt LLD was town as I already mentioned she had a similar approach in a different game and she wasn't ineffectually blocking town leaders. LLD felt like a more constructive voice. So I was voting against her wagon more than for DGB.

A50, if you want to call me useless
than you're going to have to accept you fucked up this game and misused your powerrole.

What does this have to do with that? Yes, I probably didn't use my role effectively/optimally, but that doesn't have anything to do with your playstyle in general, does it?

Eh, I was just grumpy posting. I shouldn't post at 5 am. Sorry. Uhh, I have no idea if I'm useless or not. Because I've been too scared to honestly evaluate my town play.

As scum I am useless though. I'm what, 0/6? since I got back. I guess you could argue that I'm 1/6 if you count a 3p, but I was playing my town game there.

I have some things to do but I have *more* free time over the weekend.
I'll sort my jumbled thoughts on other people later tonight.

[Bell]

Cephrir I overlooked because he had a chill vibe going. I felt like some of his posts were brain spew and hard to fake and some of his reactions were anecdotally townie. I'm less comfortable with this read than I was. He almost seems bored this game. 2838 isn't true. 2847Also isn't true. He's pretty much interacted with everyone there is to interact with.4207 Ceph said the correct claim for Ythan to make was vig, but didn't follow it up with a vote, A50 claimed 10 minutes later, some clarification would be helpful. It bothers me that it feels like he's sitting back.
Read: Weak LS.

Xtom I feel like I've never encountered a player like them before. The more I reread of their iso the more I realize that their posting is kind of robotic. Their trajectory is quite omgusy. They laid off dunn after he changed his mind about them. Yeah okay, the survivor analogy is pretty spot on, though not unusual. Their reads are pretty clearly original and not cribbing much off of game state, rather they seemed really reactive to the game state and always commented on everything that was going on, but their pushes and votes don't really reflect that. The putting Auro into spoilers because he annoys others doesn't cohere with...them posting Auro's takes and discussions throughout the rest of the game. But there's nothing really graspable from it. Since the spoilered content isn't really anything new, they pretty much sprinkled all those takes earlier in the game state. I did a double take when they voted me because It took a long time for them to get there even though they seemed fairly dead set on it earlier in the game.
Read: Weird.

Pretty sure a better player would be able to sort these two more confidently from their posts, I'm not that.

[Bell]

yeeting Ythan for a vague claim that no one is countering.
Unlike, the titus protect the DGB shot was logical.

???????????

You're going to need to place this into a form of a question.

Ceph said the correct claim for Ythan to make was vig, but didn't follow it up with a vote,

I was already voting hin?

Oh, I missed that. my b.

[Bell]

Scum are 6% more likely than town to replace out(What's that? I replaced in too? Haha, don't mind it).
They're voting town.
They voted town yesterday.
They stalled on giving out reads.
Mastina is town reading them so they must be scum.
Dunnstral thinks Danflorr crumbed a visit and Luca is lying about that visit.
LLD thought they were scum and they're pretty good.
Their role pm is red.

Pick 2.

[Bell]

VOTE: Luca Blight

E-2.

FOS Mastina

[Bell]

That was anticlimactic.

[Bell]

That reads list is garbage.

[Bell]

So the self vote means you were scum, right? You surely didn't just self vote as town

I doubt it.

[Bell]

Just vig Bell tonight pls ty

And Dannflor didn’t target me btw

This sounds salty.

[Bell]

*Exploratory fist pump?*

Meh. We'll see.

[Bell]

VOTE: Mastina

Good morning.

[Bell]

we are too, its really weird cus i felt the reasoning being given for voting him was weak, i dont see why an announcing neapolitan would ever want to pre-crumb their target or why scum would lie about it
there were some people townreading his slot to various degrees
and he gave up so easily
makes me think bussing
but why scum would think that was a productive thing to do i have no idea

I agree there was a lot of bussing going on given that literally nobody else had reasons for voting Luca but the votes just kept ticking up.
Also, I want to give back pats to whoever Hercules was, that wifom post in the beginning of the game was great and I internally doubted myself the whole time. Survivialism is a hell of a drug.

[Bell]

I have a meeting in 10.

S_S says Mastina continues to be town. I talked to him about how sometimes when somebody plays like honorary scum, they're just scum. But he says the Titus reversal isn't like Mastina scum. He says he would expect Mastin to be playing more toward survivability as scum instead of actively pushing a scum agenda. He also started that sentence with 'with all due respect' the knave.
He liked Xcom and IV's posts about bussing.

[Bell]

Well, today was busy as hell. I pretty much worked twice as long as I was supposed to.

@Xtoxm: Is this game contextually similar enough to warrant your take here or is this a fear read of game state?

[Bell]

I'm not really a new player in the sense that I used to play here around 2016? and was gone for awhile for school and came back with the covid stuff. I went by Remembrance. This is my new main account.
My experience with Mastina is 4 games and she was been wrong on all of her reads and pushes day 1 and in three of those games she got her way and every time I regretted it.
and I also regretted the one time I scum read her because she was different (having trouble coming up with reads) and I asked a sort of day vig to clear them. Then they just died that night after being cleared. opps.

Anyway, I'm not unfamiliar with her. I don't want her anywhere near elo RN though. I need to reeval Ythan and Hopkirk.

[Bell]

@Ythan, did you fake soft a PR or

[Bell]

Ah yes, more scum posting from Hopkirk.

you know someone's gonna ask why

y.

[Bell]

Eh. I'll sheep.
VOTE: Hopkirk

[Bell]

I’m hilarious.

[Bell]

I would like to solve the Puzzle.

It's Hopkirk, Mastina, Luca Blight and Ythan.

*Gets chair and waits for Almost50 to make a video where someone spins the wheel and goes bankrupt*

I'm wiggling on all of those tho.
Also, full solves
Not my strong suit.

[Bell]

I would like to solve the Puzzle.

It's Hopkirk, Mastina, Luca Blight and Ythan.

*Gets chair and waits for Almost50 to make a video where someone spins the wheel and goes bankrupt*

I'm wiggling on all of those tho.
Also, full solves
Not my strong suit.

It may help if you provided some details as to why these 4 (or rather, why the living 3 of them)

Also remind me, but weren't you leaning Ythan Town after I faked a guilty on him yesterday? What changed your mind?

I thought they softed they were the vig and then Dunnstral died. I asked them about it, but they're awol or I missed their response.

[Bell]

Huh.

[Bell]

Yeah, I know.
You don't want to know the rabbit hole I went down.

[Bell]

Yeah, I'll probably bug you tomorrow about some posts. I'm hitting the hay for now tho.
GN.

[Bell]

I'm being intentionally vague! I'm not sure how clear to be so I hope you don't mind if I wait for more relevant parties to post and continue to be coy for the moment.

The posts around this one.
What was happening here?

[Bell]

So it was a movie reference?

[Bell]

IV called a50 his partner right after his ridiculous fakeclaim and I took it as a mason claim but that wasn't correct.

A misinterpretation of a misinterpretation huh.

Can someone explain how Hopkirk self-resolves. My mechanical game is shit. All I got was that he claimed that he was checked by a neopolitan that may or may not be from scum.

[Bell]

@Bell: How do you feel about AGar now?? Right now. If you had to choose between jjh and AGar (with no third option and no chance of abstaining); who would you vote to lim?

JJH. I don't want to lose to that.

[Bell]

I feel like if I had a starmap I could look from my previous game with him to this one and say, yeah, that's Agar. Also, his contempt doesn't look fake to me.

[Bell]

Or he's really good at faking contempt maybe. I dunno what his scum game looks like.

[Bell]

Thank you.

UNVOTE:

[Bell]

That cuts deep A50. Not because of the sass. But because you agreed with Mastina while you did it.

[Bell]

I think A50's vote was a bad vote.

[Bell]

A50, I revoted Luca because I was scum reading Luca. Like, what information was luca even denying by self voting there?

[Bell]

No, I'm trying to nudge you into reading me correctly. But I don't think I've felt a need to address your read of me more than anyone elses.

[Bell]

4801
I can decipher them, but there is a clear foundational flaw to the reasoning presented, in that not everyone interprets posts in the same way and not everyone has the same intent when they post the same thing.

[Bell]

Well, who knows? Maybe the Nea wants to check you next. That would be swell for you, right?

Unironically, yes. Since then I won't have to deal with you giving me shit.

[Bell]

What's your point Oka?

Also, I just realized my team has 4 players.
How did they even get in to this?

[Bell]

I'm confused how we got onto the topic of broad trends in the neurological structure of the human race.

[Bell]

I'm a dog. I love humans. Smelly though they may be.

[Bell]

@Hopkirk, haven't you not rolled scum in like years? What do you know about your scum range?

[Bell]

Oh. Well, that make both makes sense and feels misleading as hell from death curse. It's like a technicality.

[Bell]

VOTE: Agar

Wagon totally pure. Not locktowning Agar.

Q. Why this wording for voting Agar?

[Bell]

VOTE: Mastina

@Hopkirk, what's your opinion on Mastina?

[Bell]

are you softing?

Why would you ask this?

[Bell]

You’re afraid of splitting wagons on scum.
Really?

[Bell]

Are you reading her arguments.

How exactly are they good arguments?
Her read on JJH is purely a meta read. That she is 100% confident in, for no stated reason beyond he just is.
Her justification for voting her third strongest scum read is that she didn’t want to split wagons on scum.

[Bell]

And momentum on Agar was going when her two preferred didn’t have any momentum and instead of wondering why that may be, she just voted the third guy who could very well have a bunch of scum on his wagon. There’s like, no suspicion or critical examination.

[Bell]

Okay. My vote on mastina is fixed. She’s a snake salesmen.

[Bell]

That is to say, she sells snake oil and is not actually a snake.

[Bell]

Kind of doubt it took him 12 years to figure that one out. How many games have you played with him?

[Bell]

Well, you can do both.

[Bell]

luca's iso is just as boring to me now as it was when he was posting it. i got basically nothing out of this except maybe a tiny anti-associative for bell.

Was the tiny anti-associative my vote and general suspicion of him

[Bell]

I'm interested in hearing from Titus more when she has time. But Mastina is a priority elimination. She's playing hard ball while saying she isn't. My opinion is that she is *probably* trying to stop the bleeding.

Aw man, surprise meeting.

[Bell]

I thought that Team mafia was where people would be pretty competitive if not for themselves, then for their team. I've certainly gotten a lot of talking from S_S and Lilith or at least it feels fairly close to a 3 headed hydra. Though I've been neglecting them some.
Datasi's pretty checked out though.

Other than Auro and Keely I haven't heard much mention of other people commenting.

[Bell]

I don't want to know what Mastina's town game looked like 3 years ago if this is an improvement, tbh.

[Bell]

I posit an alternative.
Given Mastina's current reads and positions now is probably a good time to eliminate her.
She's never getting night killed and she's going to end up in elo. As either alignment she is going to vote incorrectly and lose us the game.

[Bell]

I'm arguing that I don't want to be in elo with her as either alignment. I'm simply thinking ahead to that. I haven't lost an elo and I don't want to lose one now either.
I felt it possible with support and the expectations placed on her in team mafia that she might have been able to play at her best as scum. That has weakened, but I won't discount it either.

[Bell]

Yes. But I'm wiggling a little.

[Bell]

Can’t post till later tonight. Job stuff. Sorry.

[Bell]

VOTE: unvote

bell can you give like a reads list or something?
i have no idea what your opinion on most players is

Agar has been good at setting up expectations in relation to his play and his limited schedule. I don't agree with his hopkirk read. I do think his takes are his own, that he's not following the zeitgeist, that his play is in line with his behavior from last time I played with him (a town whip so to speak) and that the discrepancies I noticed, he explained away to my satisfaction. I think he's been good about interacting with everyone whilst narrative building over only a few. Null to light town. Wish I had more, I don't.

@Hopkirk.

[Bell]

I feel like I need to take acid to understand VCA.
I read all of what Mastina wrote and my only feeling really is yep, those are posts all right.

Can someone answer me about who's actually talking to their teammates and who isn't. Lilith is bugging me to get off of Mastina and do a compromise wagon. Which I do believe has never led to a mafia elimination in any game of mafia I've ever played.

[Bell]

Why did they even sign up to play team mafia if they don't like mafia.

[Bell]

Spoiler:

SS: Why did you vote Mastina I think Mastina's flip on Titus is pretty unlike scum her.
Bell: Because she keeps defending scum, attacked town LLD dishonestly and is voting the only person who had any reason to be voting Luca Blight. Instead of pushing or sniffing the less solid votes there. She's either playing honorary scum or the more simple explanation is just that she is scum because she's playing like scum.
SS: With all due respect to Mastina I don't think that's true. Townies can have off games too. And she's kind of infamous for projecting more confidence than she really has.
Bell: Citation needed on that projecting more confidence than she really has thing and it's not just you guessing at or giving her a more flattering picture than she deserves.
SS: A50 is also town btw.
SS: X4546: Also seems townie unless the self-hammer was planned.
Bell: Uh, why would it be planned?
SS: Not sure. But if it was planned I would be because there's very little bussing.
SS: Hopkirk pointing out Dunnstrall was an obvious vig feels pretty brazen.
SS: Mastina is town, love a good mastina self-meta wall now and then.
Lilith: I don't read any of her posts.
SS: I don't understand why Hopkirk is town read.
Lilith: Who said that, I thought they were just leaving him alone until the result is outed.
Bell: How do we know it's not just an an even night scum role?
SS: That makes less sense given what we know of the set up so far.
Lilith: Bell get off the Mastina wagon it's not going to move, compromise on Ythan or push titus or shut up and vote Agar.
Lilith: what happened to getting off the Mastina wagon?

[Bell]

I'm considering executing them both for mutiny.

[Bell]

Lillith suggested compromising onto Ythan?

Replace Ythan with JJH, I had an Alzheimer's moment.
She doesn't believe Mastina and mentioned last game she hard defended two scum with similar levels of certainty and that she's basically just using a weak sauce meta argument.

[Bell]

Lilith wants to know why Mastina is scum reading Agar. She can't seem to find a reason why he's even her 3rd strongest scum read.

[Bell]

Holding a pleasant conversation is a skill you guys.

[Bell]

VOTE: bell

that paraphrased chat is ridiculously concise, its not what town chat look like.
gets asked about a read and quotes something he said 2 weeks ago, that seems really weird to me. why not go into talking about your read. surely town would have some kind of nuance to it in that amount of time.
he's had a weak day phase in general.

would also be down to ignore the fake soft, i think jjh is scum.

1. I'm concise. Your vote sucks.
2. Sorry, he said he couldn't find a position on Agar so I helpfully provided him a position on Agar. A position that hasn't changed much. I note that your own argument notes his originality which I posted before you. If you want me to keep updating my reads because I'm bored and go town scum town scum, no wait, scum! Well, you don't really have any idea what you're doing or how to scum hunt. Your entire thought process of how to hunt mafia is a vague blob of half-assed impromptu ideas and that's your problem, not mine.

3. @Hopkirk, that's not what you asked, you've moved the goal post and used it as excuse to omgus. Explain.

[Bell]

thnx 4 feedback
more bell votes

Sry, when I saw your signature I thought myb you'd be interested.

@Hopkirk, after work. I find Agar's case on you more convincing than the other way around.

[Bell]

I just think you're unfunny and try and pass off scummy shit as "humor" and I think you were trying to nag and prod at the RC thing to see if you could derail a thread into a shitshow of toxicity about a player that isn't in the game. LLD made it explicitly clear how she feels about RC, and that subject had been dead and dropped until you found reason to bring it back up when nothing productive can come from it. I can find two reasons as to why you would do that, and I make a rule of assuming players aren't the stupidest fucking antitown actor that I've ever met.

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

I don't feel it's all that opaque but I'll properly case it out.

It's more that I don't agree with what you've been quoting so far

For what it's worth I have hopkirk at around null.

I'm not sure how you're disagreeing with the recent stuff, it seems fairly cut and dry.

---

My strong suspicion of Hopkirk is based primarily on two prongs:

1) I think that throwing the "[teammate] was offended by the slander of RC and I'm gonna bring that back up a couple dozen pages later" bomb out there was a specific attempt to derail a strong player who basically BoP'd herself into a tunnel of vitriol and lost focus. Whether it took hold to me is irrelevant - the entire thing was unnecessary and again, I go out of my way to assume players aren't [redacted name] when it comes to "are they scum or are they incredibly incompetent as town?" scenarios. Also incredibly amusing when squared with this post. Makes you think.

2) Hopkirk has on more than one occasion posited something, and then when called on it, backtracked to say he didn't actually mean it

that way

and tried to chalk it up to he just used a word loosely. Throwing Hercule in as a counterwagon to LLD was maybe the easiest example to catch him on and also the one in which he probably thought he could get away easiest. There was a wagon on Hercule, and he legitimately tried to get away with saying he didn't mean counterwagon when he said counterwagon. Sorry, not buying that bullshit.

Lesser notes:

He tried to recycle the point about "appealing to the crowd" against me (by appealing to a crowd, lol), even though it was brought up in reference to folks trying to appeal to a crowd that they were town/how are people buying it, and any appeals I've made have been to convince people to

look at a scumbag

, which - last I checked - was half the battle as town. I dunno, find it pretty scummy that part of the defense would be "Hey he's trying to get other people to weigh in!" because it tells me he has no actual basis to disprove/dispute my read, so he's resorting to trying to undercut me instead.

He's tried to spin everything around that I'm coming at him with as "oh you're just personally attacking me, you're being mean!" when I'm explicitly calling this out as scummy behavior. Again - his best defense has been "oh I didn't mean

counterwagon

when I called Hercule a

counterwagon

". Sometimes when scum tells you they're scum, you should believe them.

I've highlighted problems with 1173, 1176, and 1187 and the gratuitous stretch needed to get those mental gymnastics in place.

---

Ythan being inexplicably cagey with Dann in the early 2200s. And Oka.

---

This:

I read the first half of the game quite closely, but have skimmed most of it since then tbh.

does not square with

this:

It's going to take more than a skim-through to solidify my reads.

And definitely not with having three charmin townreads and no scumreads.

---

Hey

@IV

i doubt it's an intentional misrep from mastina even if she is scum and you feel she misrepped you?

Very weird defense of mastina here. Why?

Hedging to a less commonly applied definition is great for maneuvering how you wish. Retroactively being able to manipulate your perceived stances to one more flattering benefits scum. It's pretty difficult to prove what you meant because communication is flawed and you are not painstakingingly explaining what you mean by what you say. But the fact that either definition could have implied from your sentence structure is a grammatical choice. Also yeah I don't have much proof but I have seen scum default to an argument of fairness or feigned victimization/oversimplifying the arguments made against them. Though I also think that due to the nature of the argument neither side can truly be refuted.

He spent the rest of his time picking at other players reasoning questioning IV, Ythan and A50. It's a plain misrepresentation that he's been playing narrowly.

Hopkirk is still scum, y'all

Bullet points from 2340

• Specifically throwing RC's name out
  at LLD
  , knowing that it could derail the attention of a strong scumhunter, under the guise of a joke is scummy as shit. This was a couple hundred posts and 24+ hours after the initial comment by LLD. Why bring it up other than to throw kerosene on a fire and see if you can derail it? (1142)
  
• Persistent using one word then when called, trying to backtrack and saying he used that word but meant a different thing. This isn't just a mistake one time and going "ah right, I misused that," it's a consistent pattern of trying to weasel out of being held accountable. ([A] 2079 initial + 2089 backtrack.
  2814 initial + 3502 backtrack.)
  
• Recycling previous scumhunting points used by others and deliberately manipulating either the facts of what happened or the intent of the point to fit his narrative to try and bolster fake scumhunting. (2091)
  
• Any pressure has been attempted to be discredited with the insinuation that things are personal as opposed to being scumhunting - discrediting and no actual defense. (1642, 2089)

Additions:

• His reasonings for "locktowning" players have been the kind of garbage that scum make up so they can justify a townread they already have. (ex: 2399 re: xtoxm, everything in 3499)
  
• Supposedly I am his only definitive scumread - I'm separate from the POE pool now, y'all! - yet he has done fuckall to actually get a yeet on me. I've pointed this out in 3851 and 4174. Someone don't want blood on their hands. He's had three days to present any kind of reason as to why I'm scum, but he knows it's all horseshit and he'd rather burden someone else with the bad reasoning by asking anyone and everyone to scumread me.
  
• His posts have an air of "I want scumhunting done!" but lack actual content himself and he would rather burden other folks with that. (3507 asking why no one has analyzed the D1 wagons, alternatively, ISO him and ctrl+f my name and see how many times he just throws "agar?" into replies to folks because he doesn't like that his pet misyeet is being townread.)
  
• 4650 is full of the WIFOM-y bullshit that scum love to throw out there because it can't be proven, it's worthless spec, and it justifies misyeets easily.

[Bell]

To nip this in the bud.
There's a difference between what people think scum do and what they actually do. I'm stating that Agar's expectations are not out of line with a town mindset. That goes back to him acting kinda like a town whip. You could easily copy these expectations and slap them on a town player as scum for failing to be 'townie enough' or misapply it. But from observation I don't think Hopkirk has been terribly step from what Agar is accusing him of.

[Bell]

I planned to post today. But I visited my grandparents and my grandma’s oxygen wasn’t attached to the machine. /:
I’m going to focus on this today. Will post tomorrow. Sorry.

[Bell]

Deconstructing Agar’s case. I’ll follow up on each of these points in the subsequent agar case when I eventually get the time for it. This should be enough that y’all decide to start voting Agar though…




2.) Hopkirk says things then clarifies the meaning later.
Counterpoint- this is how I talk/think.
Evidence- here’s some posts from my most recent game (town obviously) that finished before team mafia began.

viewtopic.php?p=12485305#p12485305
viewtopic.php?p=12494327#p12494327
viewtopic.php?p=12475737#p12475737

1.[/b ] that's without anyone actually commenting on issues with my phrasing. if it's commented on obviously i'm going to be clearer. everything i said follows logically in terms of meaning and your misrepresentation of it nobody agrees with. you keep saying there's tons of examples but you have ONE from before you said there were tons, it's been disproven so isn't valid, and you haven't brought up others.

2.

For more, read any/all of my other games because this is my style. I’m aware my wording can sometimes be confusing. There’s a solution to that – ask me what I mean if you’re confused what I mean. Agar has never done this.

At no point has agar

asked me to clarify

what I mean. He’s exclusively gone to pointing out that it must come from scum when he’s claiming my meaning is ambiguous/fake instead of asking clarifying questions to

actually work out

what I mean.

[Choosing not to do this is bad if he aims to seriously work out my alignment since if he’s trying to show that I change my meaning when asked about it then… he isn’t taking the obvious step to try and legitimately do that. He’s instead using each alleged ‘example’ to say ‘see this is why Hop is scum’. This is working backwards from a position while using whatever I say to try and further justify it, and reeks of posturing.

3.[/b ]Notably, nobody who’s commented on any of these examples have agreed with him, people have disagreed (eg Dunn who is town), nobody who’s familiar with my play is in agreement with him while people who ARE familiar with it are disagreeing with him. He’s instead relying on some guy I’ve never heard let alone played with.

(these two are less comprehensive as they don’t factor into my case on Agar so they’re inherently less substantial)


3.) I’m getting bored tbh. See literally any game because I constantly ask people what they think about x or their thoughts when I’m in conflict with someone else. Here’s one example of me asking how they viewed me (I was town obviously) based on my half of a toxic 1v1 (what I called it before, during, and afterwards) because one is enough to disprove this when you can find it in any of my games -eg viewtopic.php?p=12475447#p12475447
ctrl f that thread with 'what do you think' or 'how do you read' or 'how are you reading' for examples of some of this other stuff

4.

) Did you read the last game where I attacked Unwnd the moment he started pushing me? See also… gee is it any other game again? It sure is. If people push me then I push back. Sometimes that’s with scumreads, othertimes it’s just by throwing shade at them. Like with LLD in Death Curse that I mentioned a few times earlier when I had them as locktown and they scumread me. I just kept throwing shade at them in basically half my posts- stuff like accusing them of being a bad townleader who was dooming us all for x/y reason.


Additions

- Ooh, it’s stuff that Agar didn’t comment on at the time that’s not even true. If people think my reasons for townlocking players are invalid maybe they should comment on them. Don’t pay any attention to Agar here (because what he’s saying isn’t reflective of reality) who, instead of asking more questions about the reads, just says they’re invalid as the executive summary of the read isn’t good enough for them hence must be 100% of it. I still hard stand by each of the reads if anyone was wondering.

6.

- Can anyone read my iso and seriously say there’s no reasons there why I don’t like Agar? This is objectively untrue. A more substantial case I need time to make that I only really have over the weekend (unless I’m pissed off by stuff like… agar)

- I have a shitton of scumhunting. Well, I say scumhunting, most of it is townhunting since I prefer to find town then POE. As is very clear. See multiple games where I’ve described my style in detail to be this. Agar is my most confident scumread, but I’m also confident the rest of the scum are within my POE. I ask questions of other people on reads as it helps me sort them + I’m willing to sheep my townreads reads. None of this is meaningful.

- This isn’t actually saying anything? It’s saying ‘Hop’s reads are wifom. Scum like to use wifom. Hence, Hop is scum’. That’s just… bad logic at best?

Note - my agar case is mostly pointing out how bad his progression/read on me is since it's outside of something i can see coming from a reasonable town perspective who's actually thinking about things rather than trying to justify a terribly flimsy read that he got called out on but somehow isn't getting called out on by enough people to die... there's not a smoking gun beyond that, it's just constant terrible interactions in regards to me

Deleted the RC stuff because I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole.

1. Counterpoint nobody read Agar's case or decided to grapple with that point specifically out of all the points he made.

2. He made an observation and he's under no obligation to ask you to clarify what you meant by what you said. The best you can say is that he didn't try to engage you directly, but he doesn't need to, to call a spade a spade.

3. It's incredibly common for people to disagree in mafia. You're trying to make it notable that a townie disagreed with Agar that later died, but this is notable in the same way that my ice cream melted and also, an airplane crashed over the Himalayas at the same time. Coincidence? I think not.

4 is just explanations for your own behavior. You're probably just defensive as either alignment.

5. Your case can be summarized into the bullet point that Agar didn't engage with you. I am not terribly impressed by large walls.

Spoiler: aside

Thanks for well wishes, she's fine.

[Bell]

Quick, answer me this, who is scum on the Bell wagon? Answer: No one.

Good morning!

VOTE: Titus

[Bell]

Well, I'm claiming VT. Since there's not much time left.
I feel like the neopolitan can just clear me with a check.

The argument Xcom is making that my chat doesn't feel real after asking me to paraphrase. When the majority of the convo was with S_S who is relatively concise and comparing it to how your chat looks with Auro who is extremely chatty isn't a real take imo. They'e engaged enough for me to be happy and not terribly lonely with the game. When I ask a question they're usually there to answer within a day or two.

I don't think Titus's sudden change in play can be written off or ignored. I'm pretty sure she will respond to pressure and is not as unavailable as she is making herself out to be. Her recent positions have been rather contradictory. She seems happy as long as she's not the wagon really.

[Bell]

I would recommend not writing off anyone really as town except maybe A50 who to me is the only one that really seems to have left what I understand as his scum game. Then again the last time I said that about a player they ended up being scum and Dunnstrall was right about them, so maybe not.

[Bell]

I don't think Titus's sudden change in play can be written off or ignored. I'm pretty sure she will respond to pressure and is not as unavailable as she is making herself out to be. Her recent positions have been rather contradictory. She seems happy as long as she's not the wagon really.

That's very offensive. I am trying my best here and to accuse me about lying about IRL to get an in game advantage is insane.

I'm a VT too. I'm not sure when I'll get to that VCA. If I get flipped for that so be in.

I think IV, Bell, Agar, Oka contains the scums. If I am wrong on IV, it's Ceph. Never the two together.

I did not say this.
Nor would I ever imply such.
I do not doubt for a moment that you told the truth about feeling depressed. As not believing a depressed person is incredibly cruel. I am sorry that you even misinterpreted me and I will strive to be more clear.

I simply meant that I think you can post more. That because you were not wagoned you posted less and could let the wagon go by unchallenged..

[Bell]

I am deeply sorry that I made you feel that I was discounting or accusing you of using your depression as an excuse.
It was absolutely not my intent.

[Bell]

I take it on good faith that when someone has an issue they’re telling the truth and you more than most because I’ve gotten to know you somewhat haphazardly throughout our games together.

I am genuinely sorry and it was not my intent.

[Bell]

What I meant was that scum were relatively complacent on my wagon. That they were not posting or proactively playing once my wagon became viable.
That people were rather hesitant to poke at people because it could hurt their position and make them the target of a wagon instead. That the inconsistency in your positions and posts was related to trusting in VCA and then voting outside of that when you tend to trust vca more than feel or social observation. I felt you were positioning yourself in a way contradictory to that stance.

I am sorry again for writing my post that way.

[Bell]

I also felt it strange that mastina used an off hand “why not” to vote me.
After pushing me as her primary or secondary scum read. All of this day phase.
Stuff like this bothered me but I tend to value a more broad approach to encapsulate a moment or movement. Rather than just a single contradiction or hypocrisy, because town contradict themselves and are hypocritical too.

[Bell]

Her wagon wasn’t happening.

The only additional vote might have been Cephir. But beyond that I didn’t see a path as Winter flakes and jjh seem satisfied to vote one another and not take responsibility for a wagon. Titus seemed like a more feasible option. So I switched.

[Bell]

VOTE: Mastina

Forget it. I feel disgusted with myself.

[Bell]

VOTE: Titus

[Bell]

Well, I'm here. I had work all day.

[Bell]

There are 6 hours left.
I do believe it has come down to it.
Also, just in general. If you don't take control of the game, scum will.

[Bell]

GJ HoppityHopkirk, Oka, Luca.

GG.

[Bell]

Is it just me or was this a weird set up?

[Bell]

[announcing] vanilla cop enabler

honestly, what a great fakeclaim lmfao

almost thought it was too wild to be fake lol

It was something Smart's fourth tier of fake claim.
Hopkirk liked it the most.

[Bell]

I gave myself a 3.

[Bell]

I always write a disclaimer that numbers are meaningless unless you're doing math.

[Bell]

The team ratings already came in and the winners were announced, so I don't think you had to.

Ebwop: I'll tell Bork to get right on that.