Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[petapan]

i had planned on taking a break but i saw this playerlist and thought, what a fine group of people to make myself miserable with over the next month, so naturally i requested to replace in


unfortunately i am

scum

and as such will be putting in absolutely no effort to help anyone

[petapan]

as such, my first move is to suggest you all help me bus my teammate, ben

[petapan]

VOTE: ben

in all seriouisness: the way he claimed sucks, play before that wasn't great, disappearance after claiming sucks

put the slot out of its misery imo

[petapan]

VOTE: datwistid1

saying hi to him, but not to me? unforgivable

[petapan]

but peta, i said hi to you in the scum pt!!

oh shit, i misread, now who am i supposed to kill night 2

[petapan]

mr. smart is there a mechanical reason we should not kill you

[petapan]

hello petapan.

hello implosion i actually joined this for you

it is a shame you are obvious scum

[petapan]

[petapan]

there are many things in this world that are shameful.

for instance, your posting

[petapan]

personally i feel my vote was even worse as i didnt wait for a replacement

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

just in case (look ma, i'm fishing for towncred)

[petapan]

Updated reads are

Hydra/Datisi/Peta are more likely town than not

Peta is the weakest confidence of that group though at the moment

is this just because i wanted to flip ben's slot or what

i had planned on taking a break but i saw this playerlist and thought, what a fine group of people to make myself miserable with over the next month, so naturally i requested to replace in


unfortunately i am

scum

and as such will be putting in absolutely no effort to help anyone

hello!!!

~ skitter

omg hi2u

[petapan]

for the record: have been keeping up with the game for several days in anticipation i might get a spot in it, have reads, probably not going to talk about them yet unless necessary (was taking notes but got lazy)

[petapan]

okay that's good because i don't think i've done anything actually town indicative yet

[petapan]

I can be wrong fair, but this is looking like another case where I'm gonna be sitting here on the scum wagon trying to convince people on how the detail of a post is important but no one pays attention to that which is very sad

I don't think SS posting other than that post is bad

I don't think Ben claim always comes from scum here

but the perspective that SS used to talk about NM comes from scum 8, maybe 9 out of 10 times here

There's what? 6 days up to EoD?

SS wagon is gonna most likely dissipate because people are gonna go look for the next shiny thing probably

my own perspective is i don't really care about claims and think if someone's play is scummy to just say fuck it and kill them; tracker isn't so good that there's no reason to vote the claim ever

i also entered into the game feeling that very little of ben's posting made an impression on me, some scummy things, a couple towny things, but not much overall; looking at it in total i can see him as an inexperienced scum player having difficulty faking scumreads. in his other games he doesn't

seem

to have a problem forming reads and making pushes but that was admittedly a very brief survey, not thorough. i also think the

way

he claimed was scummy with him making an excuse of wanting to avoid the NK and then freezing up afterwards.

I suppose I'm projecting a bit of confidence here but it's just too scummy for me to not heavy push this

okay that's good because i don't think i've done anything actually town indicative yet

I guess?

I care less about replacements than most people to be fair, I don't see you as a new slot, just scipio v2

okay but i recalled scipio was toward the lower end so it seemed strange that i'd be on the town end suddenly

[petapan]

petapan assuming you're town do you want to play gun to head game

we call scum teams D1 and look post-game how smart or dumb we sound

not particularly but if you want to i'll do it anyway

my reads aren't actually very interesting and my note taking slowed down as the pages got higher because the day has gone too long and it gets harder to find things to read into from posts

[petapan]

A big part of losing my townread on implo is that the scumreads on him seem facially unfair but he is not the least bit butthurt about them. In purgatory he was still all cool enough but I felt like I remember just a little bit of underlying butthurt over being scumread any as town.

for the record my scumread on him was bullshit, i just wanted to fuck with him to see how he'd respond (and also just to fuck with him tbh). i think in that regard his response was...fine? i didn't think it was scummy. i don't actually understand why he's being scumread, I had a townlean on his early posting

[petapan]

isis u seem very salty this game

[petapan]

not particularly but if you want to i'll do it anyway

It would be no fun if you don't have fire in your soul

let's wait for a next opportunity

I'm also spam posting by this point but who cares

the fire in my heart went out a long time ago

[petapan]

are you saying you want someone to sell you a bridge

[petapan]

sure, you got some?

i actually have one post by them i didn't like in my notes, and one post i did like. that is the extent of things i have noticed about them. i wasn't planning on thinking very hard this day phase but i will if i have to

Also, hi peta

-QB

hello

[petapan]

i suppose i should engage my brain with this game a bit and not be totally lazy

i thought 620 623 625 from penguin was pretty towny for him - the questioning of isis moving toward the vote there was decently productive engagement for him, looked real enough

prior to that i pretty much agree that there wasn't much from him at all, which made the strength of implosion's townread on him fairly puzzling

[petapan]

while spectating this game i was actually thinking aaronfrost was VERY scummy and was wondering why he was not getting attention

in that sense datisi's vote on him was perfectly timed and i very much townread him for it in addition to generally liking his posting

that was somewhat sidetracked by the wagon on ben because i felt his response to pressure wasn't good and there's some slight anti-associative stuff going on there so i was okay with just voting ben there for the time being b/c i figured the chances the tracker was run up were lower than the chances scum was run up and decided to claim tracker

but if people want to vote aaron i think that is a pretty good vote

the softie in me felt like giving him a day because less established player on his first game coming off a hiatus so maybe give him some time but i do think his posting is p scummy

[petapan]

rude tbh

[petapan]

Datisi, take on SS vote?

maybe peta as well if possible

eh idk i feel like i can see either alignment thinking that is a good vote, yknow?

I am inclined to say I would also lim peta today

-QB

this still because of scipio's early game or?

no, I would very much like peta to die for his entire approach since he's repped in, scipio's play is more or less immaterial to the read at this point

-QB

oh word?

[petapan]

oh word?

sorry bud, was happy to see u rep in but this doesn't look like ur towngame at all

-QB

if i actually cared to present as being effortful i would but i haven't felt it was necessary

my general impression on subbing in was ehh current wagons okay, not going to think too hard about things and just shoot the shit

dont think you actually know my towngame enough!

that

the general lack of anything from him since he arrived but the like very weak throwaway comments, and now using content from before he knew his alignment that looks solvey but then contrasts even harder with his lack of actual solving since arrival

the fact that he seems radically different from play I've seen from him elsewhere + experienced with him

the scum entrance also... not great tbh

-QB

Yeah, after you said about peta I began to remember the marathon game which he was like

the most tryhard player by far

so his wishy-washy approach here does raise question marks

however he was scum in that game so why I'm talking about assumptions

either way I don't want to use meta unless necessary. I can see some issues now on peta even without speculating meta.

my lack of WIM actually directly correlates to me being town lmao

[petapan]

are you trying to say i'm scummy for joking around

[petapan]

I actually can't stop chuckling

I was so pocketed there

he had basically vigilante killed his partner without any warning, and his partner posted a ":shocked face:" in the hood (I was hooded with his partner).

I think he didn't understand until post-game that his partner had killed him with no mercy.

The vigilante kills happened in the agreement of the members of the hood, and when peta hoodmate wanted to kill someone else rather than his partner, peta insisted on killing his partner.

I don't know why but it's funny now that I remember it.

yes pooky retells this story in literally every game

[petapan]

moi? oui

-QB

i feel like that is actually a town trait for me! in fact the last person who called me scum for ball-busting was scum

[petapan]

anyway before i got sidetracked with arguing with menalque about myself (my favorite thing to argue about), i do want to say i ran the numbers on tracker mainly for my own amusement, but if anyone would like to know, here they are:

32.1% chance of no tracker
60.5% chance of exactly 1 tracker

just under 2:1 that there is a tracker with no 1-shot tracker


i guess by math an uncced tracker is more likely town than not, dont really know if that outweighs the read on play but i thought i'd throw it out there for the folks who don't care to do the math

[petapan]

I thought people were TRing notsci a decent amount

i actually wasn't and was somewhat dreading when it seemed like there was a possibility i'd be taking the spot shirou has because i felt like notscience being kind of underwhelming and fading from the game had a fair chance of being scum in a bad situation

i think since shirou's replace in, i didn't

like

the way he presented his reads but felt it was probably more on the town side to prevent things in an unconventional way that is unlikely to be crowd pleasing. when he finally weent after s_s it felt like there was some decent conviction there so ehh prob town

[petapan]

i vote s_s 10 times out of 10 there because i don't really feel implo-scum, reasons against him aren't very strong and i felt like his reaction to me accusing him out of nowhere was ~fine

[petapan]

tbh i want to provide actual input too and maybe, like, engage with the implo votes because that being a wagon is kind of surprising

although tbh if there was support i'd move to aaronfrost and that is not just because i have personal bias for implosion

[petapan]

i can't tell if you realize me calling it

a sheep vote

was a joke or not

it's

a vote on a player that i believe to be scummy

xk no los dos?

xk

Pls no

-QB

<3

a vote can be both; this was not.

I mean, I just think it's weird that in the posts directly following your vote on ben, you outright acknowledge that other players have had a strong impact on your reads this game--so why the backpedaling?

I don't like how implosion is trying to push the ben elim even though he's claimed. Bridge's reaction feels like genuine paranoia while implosion's does not.

Yeah, that tracks

1032 feels nitpicky to me, though idk if I'd say nitpicky & scummy. 1051 feels bargainy in a gross way though. Might be nothing, might come back to it.

1032 feels nitpicky to me, though idk if I'd say nitpicky & scummy. 1051 feels bargainy in a gross way though. Might be nothing, might come back to it.

Wanna go back to implo?

Right so, part of it may just be me coming off the tail of that whole back-and-forth from earlier over the sheep-but-not-actually-sheep vote on ben from earlier. Like, I do think 831 is a decent take on Ben's initial reaction to his wagon, but it's hard for me to put too much stock in that when it'd already seen a fair amt of attention in the thread at that point. Imp addressed some of my concerns abt it but it's still like... Even jokingly, you called it a sheep vote, in a context where it's not outrageous to interpret it as such, and then spent a solid chunk of time talking around the optics of the vote.

The other thing I'm struggling with here is like--I don't think "I'd be willing to vote sechyd" is

entirely

too far out of left field for imp, but the "I will if you will" + the throwaway line at the end of post kind of puts it in this space for me where it lends itself pretty easily to a "haha, just kidding... unless " situation. And it's like... the build-up there seems to run parallel to some of the other heat Shydra's been getting in thread (to be clear: I don't think it's outrageous to read them here, the willful ignorance angle Isis was poking at earlier has some bite to it), but the progression just kind of goes Zero Engagement -> Admittedly Zero Engagement -> Doing the Bare Minimum -> Suddenly Very Prickly in these later interactions--almost like it's just capitalizing off the attn that's already been put on the spot? The 0 to 60 really stands out to me, but to put it on skitters like that feels like it's just making it easier to detach himself from the vote if things go sotuh/recontextualize the push as needed depending on how things pan out. I'm tinfoiling a bit and kind of rambling, but hopefully you get where I'm coming from with it. Also kind of Huh? for me that he gives us 1023 in response to SecHy's handling of Ben's claim while also doing nothing to try and reconcile that w/ 831's take on Ben's reaction to being wagoned

I'm tinfoiling a bit, but it stuck out to me and I kinda wanna keep chewing on it.
Click submit. Ignore new posts. Click submit.

none of this is especially convincing to me

[petapan]

the thing i got out of the last couple pages are that isis and shirou are probably town and nothing that was said tells me much of anything about s_s


may i offer as a third option

VOTE: aaronfrost

[petapan]

the caps lock part is what I was wondering about? Why is implo towny there

@isis

if that post doesn't read towny to you I feel like you have a PT with some other players you could ask about it

it's very analytical

hmm i'm not sure if scum!isis posts this, but at the same time i don't like how this comes off tonally

She's implying that I'm scum if I don't find the post towny

Well...not by the way she worded it. If she said you are scum if you don't find that one implo post towny then she could have said it straight up but she chose to say that if you don't find implo's post towny then you have outside influence in some way. That's the question I'm trying to figure out here.

i think it's just a snarky way of saying that she thinks infinity is scum if he doesn't find that post from implo towny

we've played several together, most recently the infamous SS3:Royalty in the mini queue

i think a majority of this pl would agree with me saying that that's literally my first post in nearly every game i play as both alignments. i'm just kinda baffled that she'd come to the conclusion that it's scummy
and like i said later on at the same time i'm not sure why scum!her makes that take because it's like a bizarre thing to set up an argument abt that i'm p sure she knows i'm going to object to but like my overall take is that it's scummy

pedit was it really only 3? ok i can cite probably dozens of games where i did it as town and ig you happened to be in the one where i didn't, does knowing that change anything?

~ skitter

yeah i'm pretty sure the v/la thing is nai. before i siteflaked for a bit i'd played with skitter a lot and she almost always announced her v/la immediately.

I mean I’m kind of fucking around but also dragging the day out is pointless

I think we should be aiming to get a claim out of someone within the next 3-4 days and to elim in the next 5-6

-QB

this is super true by the way. the beautiful thing about deadlines is that you can use as much or as little of it as you want.

i think 7-10 days is plenty time to discuss things and figure out an elim target, any longer usually leads to town apathy.

fwiw i think ben is fairly townie

~ skitter

i find it interesting that both heads of this hydra disagree on the ben read, but i'm not sure what it means atm

Is Datisi like, a notably good scum player? Bc it seems like there's a decent amount of latent skepticism of him but I feel like he's been transparently town a couple times.

i think datisi is more than capable as scum but take that with a grain of salt because i think i've only played with scum!datisi once and that was in a newbie game back in like 2019

lot of bad posts

[petapan]

s_s is hard to read so I don’t know if he really believes that or not despite being wrong.

feel like u look pushable from a scum pov

low prio but also peta when you get the chance talk to me about how you think the imp wagon began

i meant to look into it more but i forgot

[petapan]

feel like u look pushable from a scum pov

Wut?

i think scum would look at you as someone they could push by going "hEs NoT dOiNg AnYtHiNg" so in that sense him pushing you is scummy

[petapan]

Right - that wasn’t my point. Why if AFF a good vote when you (seemingly) prefer implosion?

and went with imp, whom i also read & who looked more viable

I assume there is a “and found scummy for [reasons]” in there somewhere.

i mean hes given more reasons for scumreading implo than u tbh

[petapan]

i mean hes given more reasons for scumreading implo than u tbh

Maybe? Must be in a wall somewhere.

That wasn’t my point. Ooooh - can I do a Schiavetto now?

i'd've preferred to hear from Schiavetto on that question.

this is actually me pivoting to asking why you're voting implosion

[petapan]

yeah i'm working on that sorry

we can all be very proud that i at least didn't change whatever vote mena did last

i would also like to say that i explicitly do not townread peta

~ skitteR

can we skip past the multi-day screaming match with menalque to convince you i'm town or is that a necessary step

[petapan]

no in this case i would be getting in a screaming match with menalque

[petapan]

an index of other votes on implosion:

VOTE: implo

For me, I never really scumread ben, implo has always been more scummy to me, I though schiavetto had some convincing reasons to SR implo in 1805 and a decent amount of people have expressed support for the wagon. The best reason to scumread s_s here is that I found the replace out scummy, and perhaps the fact that you SR him too. I think it's somewhat believable that he'd call NM's vote on him immediately after replacing scummy, though I disagree with the logic there.

PEdit: a lot of people are saying implo is scummy too but not commiting to it so

infinity got cold feet but was mainly sheeping schiavetto, fine, acceptable but doesn't move the needle for me

we are also about equally worried about that implo sheep vote

-seCret

implo's sheep vote onto ben

hYdra feels that that 'one quote' I used was kinda light for the vote

but then I explained it wasn't really about accusing us of lurking/non-contributing alone, but the manner in how he seemed to be enabling skipio in potentially pushing us (he was the first to call us smt like non-contributing)

you get what i mean?

-seCret

i actually think i overestimated the riskiness of a tracker claim, i think it can be fake, and i know i have always trouble with exeing pr claims, so like, would be appricated if you actually played the game ben, sorry if you're busy or anything

shirou is fine, heard they were really good at scum but that's a problem i'm fine with leaving aside for now, plus their clash with my other head is pretty good looking imo

@shirou could you detail your implo townlean maybe? i'm personally not feeling good about the lot, and a lot of peoples have the same problem so that'd be cool

think my PoE rn is something like {implo / isis / ben / N_M}

oh god i feel like i'm posting completely empty fluff aaaaaaah

- hYdra

Not voting (5) - seCret hYdra, AaronFrost, Petapan, Something_Smart, Shirou

do something.

thx.

sure VOTE: Implosion

really hate the S_S wagon rn so idk, i'd rather see where this goes

- hYdra

seccy d was null on him but then disliked his sheep vote on ben and now he's POE I guess because reasons???? don't love it

A big part of losing my townread on implo is that the scumreads on him seem facially unfair but he is not the least bit butthurt about them. In purgatory he was still all cool enough but I felt like I remember just a little bit of underlying butthurt over being scumread any as town.

VOTE: implo

i haven't read up yet but between page 1-62 and this votecount the vibe is like, "everyone thinks implosion is scum, and no one knows why, including implosion, the people voting for implosion, and the people not voting for implosion, and then implosion just keeps doing normal things to make the queer aberration disappear when life just goes on, but life just never goes on"

idk

isis is also just because...he's not angry enough about being scumread? idfk

[petapan]

i see why schiavetto is voting there, i buy the conviction but don't find his case compelling. there seems to be no particular reason why votes have gravitated toward him, really, and i can't say it strongly inspires any confidence he's likely to flip scum here

[petapan]

No screaming here, I’ve turned over a new leaf and I’m now one of the chill bros who’s limiting himself to making vaguely sarcastic and/or passive aggressive comments

-QB

nice

i actually just looked at the setup again and saw that it's possible for there to be a 2man scumteam, and i think that the current ~weirdness~ of the gamestate is quite possibly congruent with that

peta if you want to engage with me we can probably bypass the screaming match (i wasn't aware that that was really a thing tbh)

pedit hi mena
pedit2 ty

~ skitteR

if you want to talk about something go ahead, but i'm not sure i have any burning questions to ask you right now

[petapan]

I really wanted to see if my early case about NM was right though

what was this

[petapan]

i feel like partly the swing to aaron is simply a function of him not being around and posting, but also: he's been scummy when he was posting so w/e

[petapan]

if you want to talk about something go ahead, but i'm not sure i have any burning questions to ask you right now

ig i'm a little concerned by ur slot rn - i think in the three prior games i played with u i was able to get a p decent bead on town!you fairly fast but here i'm just not getting those vibes; you feel very underwhelming and like mechanical almost rn, and i don't really like your takes

i also want you to explain the WIM post a bit more, if you can

~ skitteR

i think there's some difference in me replacing in vs me being in a game from the start and working to advance things and generate content, here i've been content to play laid back and not really give my take on everything because i didn't feel it was necessary (for instance, infinity has no idea i'm going to vig him tonight)

but it's not like i haven't heard the underwhelming thing before, sometimes i take a while to get going i suppose

i feel like as scum i still have a significant amount of pride on the line, and also it's just easier to play. as scum i'd probably be playing a lot harder than i am right now, gameface on, serious from the getgo, put out reads on everyone, look to establish a strong presence. i find it significantly easier to manufacture opinions than come up with real ones, uncertainty is always going to hold me back on real reads. this is why i hate doing lists. as it is i don't particularly feel the burden to act town so i'm content to shoot the shit and joke around. after a string of crap games i am not

especially

motivated as town, but also, i don't think playing harder equates to playing better and i don't think my reads are particularly likely to be better than other people's so i'm more content to be a bit player

what takes have i had that you don't like?

[petapan]

also why's secret hydra town to you

[petapan]

Peta ig my response to your response is hmmmmm. Like i dont have much to say on you going on abt the difference between town and scum you

There's a few different things i dont like abt your takes:
1. Your reads seem to be skewed towards scumreading people more than townreading people, which is odd because i feel like most people in this game dont have nearly as many scumreads as you do
2. Related: but i almost feel like you're trying to nudge peple towards either the ss or aff wagons, but like, without prejudice and not overtly? You write something like you'd vote ss 10/10 times, but also pull a bunch of aff posts, say you dont like them, and dont mind voting there. (You also pulled a bunchnof schiavetto's posts and similarly made a 1-liner abt how this is bad). This latter method doesnt really feel like solving to me, but rather that you're pulling a bunch of posts out that are easy to push, which feels like a scum mentality (especially given that you labeled such a method as scummy when talking abt how people might push penguin here, and i think scum are subconsciously hyper-attuned to the tactics theu're using as scum). And going back to ss/aaron, doesnt feel to me like you particularly care which goes (interestingly, i dont see you having a similarly cavalier attitude towards implo, which may point to partners)
3. For someone who's following along for several days before repping in, your posting is underwhelming. Ig i wouldnt mind underwhelming from a repin in a vaccum per se, but you were boasting abt following well before that, so where are the reads that i might expect that reading to produde?

~
also, how are you reading my alot btw?

Also: i liked theor response to shirou's rep-in, their confusion and pushback felt townie to me

~ skitteR

1. are they skewed toward scumreading people? i actually feel as though i have produced relatively few scumreads.
2. this feels like you're not fully reading what i'm saying. my comment about voting s_s 10/10 times was

specifically

in relation to him with implosion as the counterwagon, where i don't find the reasons for voting implosion to be compelling. my way of expressing a scumread of aaronfrost may be lazy, but it's still how i feel even if i'm not going so far as to type out a full-blown case on it, that's just b/c i don't feel that amount of explanation is necessary. you are right that i don't care a lot! i think ben was scummy and recent experience tells me if someone is playing scummy and claims a PR you should say screw it and vote them anyway. him getting replaced by a stronger player doesn't make a ton of difference to me, although i admit you're right that smart has done some things that are kind of town for him so i understand the trepidation and am fine with aaronfrost as the secondary vote.
3. i have a disjointed string of notes that i never bothered compiling into full blown reads because i do not care and most of the game is probably still in the gray area for me

4. probably town, but not to a confidence level where i feel comfortable expressing it unprompted
5. see, that's interesting that you townread seCret's pushback on shirou, because outside of that i think they've been ~fine but i felt like some of the arguments seCret was making there felt rather underhanded

[petapan]

1. ig this kinda ties into a what i was saying in one of the later points - you've done this thing a few times, where you just pull out a bunch of posts from somebody's iso, label them bad, and ig it feels to me like a lot of shade that isn't going anywhere (AFF, schiavetto, complaining abt votes on the implo wagon), and it feels discordant with the fact that so many other people are struggling to find townreads, and you're just, like, shading a lot of people. i'm not sure you're like explicitly going: i scumread players A, b, c, d, and e. that's kinda why i'm calling it more subtle, and why i kinda agree with you that you ahven't produced that many scumreads. however, despite few *explicit* scumreads, there's a lot of shade coming from your slot, which is sort of having the overall effect of like weakening other players' positions in the game by adding to a chorus of people stating scumreads/not-townreads on a particular player. the thing is that yours don't feel like you actually have those reads, but rather that you're contributing to the noise and confusion if that makes sense

2. (ig the above point bleeds into this one as well). and i have a few comments here: a) why are you townreading implo so strongly that the rest of your positioning this eod seems to revolve around him? b) this is kinda ignoring my point r.e. penguin, and casting people as scummy, in general c) i may have misread what you were saying r.e. voting ss, so ok sure i retract that point in particular. d) but you just, like, idk feel like you're trying to position yourself this eod more than i feel like you're trying to flip scum this eod, and i do feel like you're trying to justify votes and shade people and like idk it feels a little manipulative and slimy to me (in the sense that i think you may be scum trying to like make a good gamestate for your team and firm up your positioning by weakening that of many of the weaker-positioned players, not in the sense that i feel like you're playing underhandedly or in a way that i find distasteful, to be clear)

3. also this seems kinda incongruent to me: you were following along enough to know you want to be in this game and were tracking things for several days before repping in, but you have no real reads from that experience? that doesn't, like, fully 'gel' to me

4. you're talking to me like you're townreading me, and like you want me to not be scumreading you
5. what didn't you like from sechyd in the shirou rep-in? right around there is where townreading them sort of 'clicked' for me

~ skitteR

1. i actually think schiavetto is quite towny, for the record. i just don't think their case on implosion is that strong. but overall i have had more people i defended in some way thinking they are towny than people i have actually attacked. like right now i think schiavetto, PP, shirou are town, maybe isis, maybe you, had early townreads on infinity and implosion but probably want to refresh those, had a strong townread on datisi before i replaced in as well, is that me discrediting too many people?

2. i'm not super solid on implo town but don't think there's a good case on him and disagree with the wagon. i could, of course, be horribly wrong but if i disagree with a wagon i'm going to say so, and examining the reasons there they seemed not very solid to me. (full disclosure: implosion and i are from the same homesite but haven't played together in forever, i'm going to be biased there but i think on net still feel like he's town)

3. i'm being lazy/i don't like pronouncing reads on people before i have a decent degree of confidence on them. again, i don't really have a problem but i don't have strong feelings here. maybe i'll start efforting in a showoffy way, or maybe i'll just continue to play this way out of spite. who knows!

4. i suppose so, i'm going to engage with you until i feel something is off. and, like, the thing is i feel you are probably "correct" to not be townreading me by how i've played so far, because i don't think i've been especially town, but i have a reflex to get annoyed at not being townread regardless and so i'm stuck here arguing with you

5. the specific attacks he was making didn't sit right with me. like 1140 feels like it's trying to put everything about that post in the worst possible light - shirou says he's going to try to restrain his activity and gets attacked for this, somehow he is attacked for actively lurking the game before replacing in (which makes no sense), and shirou makes an offhanded comment about expecting ben to be a person who gets wagoned, and this gets called "discrediting the ben wagon while fence-sitting it", when really it is neither

the whole thing feels fuckin' dirty looking back at it, like he's just straining to attack everything shirou says

[petapan]

aaron had too many posts that existed as general commentary without really expressing an opinion and when he did put out reads they were soft, not much pressure anywhere, just some weak townreads i think, didn't look very scumhunt-y

[petapan]

I would like to know what about the isis wagon feels evil and why, btw dats

Also, would like to know why it’s AFF?

-QB

i don't know. i get a bad feeling from the fact the game was after ben and she kept calling ben townie and now it's slowly turning against her and she is just making posts like 465 which i feel like don't help her case at all? like this sorta quietness/shutting down is something i'd maybe expect from newer scum but not like, isis!scum?

can i say ~gut~? earlier in the game i got an off vibe from him for a bit but i ignored it bc i was more interested in ben at the time. now i feel like a good number of his posts doesn't actually serve a purpose (e.g. 444, 446, 459) and i didn't like his vote on isis

like this was a good post by datisi when i saw it, and nothing in particular in the 10 days (!!!) since then have changed my mind much at all

[petapan]

in my heart i'm forever an epic mafia troll, sorry

[petapan]

peta am i understanding this right:
- you're staying off of implo because while you're not solidly townreading him you don't like his wagon
- you're voting for aff for essentially being underwhelming?

like it doesn't 100% make sense to me that you're basically avoiding implo because you disagree with the wagon while voting aff for fairly weak reasons / piggy-backing off of dats post as he's being wagoned for kinda meh reasons ....

~ skitteR

i don't think the reasons for scumreading aaron are weak

[petapan]

i'm anti-partnered with everyone, which means i am obviously the serial killer

[petapan]

the caps lock part is what I was wondering about? Why is implo towny there

@isis

if that post doesn't read towny to you I feel like you have a PT with some other players you could ask about it

it's very analytical

hmm i'm not sure if scum!isis posts this, but at the same time i don't like how this comes off tonally

another post i hated from aaron in my notes was this one where he just openly fencesits on isis, who was getting a lot of scumreads early

[petapan]

the stuff i'm pointing out tends toward the earlygame as that was what left a strong impression but like. do i need to fullblown scumcase the guy right now just to prove my feelings are REAL

(btw that thing where i agree with datisi's read on the last page is entirely within my range as scum, see the recently completed popcorn mafia. irrelevant because i'm town here, but just so you know!)

[petapan]

i don't agree at all that the reasons for the scumreads on the two are remotely similar and it's baffling that you're trying to argue that

[petapan]

also what do u think of my 2man scumteam theory?

~ skitteR

maybe. i don't know. i always feel the "everyone seems so town" type of statements are at best complacent and at worst deceptive (and are also bad to make for other reasons that i won't get into)

[petapan]

i mean, hopefully not

[petapan]

tbh if i could get implo yeeted day 1 as scum i would do it

[petapan]

hwllo

[petapan]

peta do me a solid and unvote. i finally rolled townside with you :3

what makes you think i'm town

[petapan]

ah, i see

well skitter wants to kill me so maybe you can team up with her

[petapan]

would i post, it, tho

i mean apart from the game where i claimed mafia at the start but that was a meme game where i had the same scumteam twice in a row

[petapan]

that's almost entirely because people wanted to wait for aaronfrost to say something and then he flaked

[petapan]

ok but if he were scum i imagine that scum would be trying to divert the wagon off despite that, no?

~ skitteR

possibly by...trying to push a wagon on implosion? or maybe they don't want to cause a ruckus. i don't know. people don't often act in a deliberate, overt way, else the game would be easy. this is dumb.

[petapan]

ok but if he were scum i imagine that scum would be trying to divert the wagon off despite that, no?

~ skitteR

possibly by...trying to push a wagon on implosion? or maybe they don't want to cause a ruckus. i don't know. people don't often act in a deliberate, overt way, else the game would be easy. this is dumb.

but who's trying to push a wagon on implosion? nobody really except maybe like sechyd. there isn't really momentum towards him, that's kinda my point. unless ss and now aff/pooky are *his* cw's

i'm also not sure i like how you're framing this? scum don't need to be acting in a 'deliberate overt way' to be like 'i don't really want my partner run up let me try to do something else!!!!'

like the way you're characterizing it is kinda at odds with how scum kinda tend to react in that sort of situation

~ skitteR

okay cool i don't fucking care anymore

[petapan]

i don't care dude

[petapan]

actually on 2nd thought

I am glad you no longer care about this game peta

letting go is the path to true enlightenment

i don't care if i miss on a day 1 elim, it's not the end of the world. sorry if it's wrong, nothing you really could have done in my view to make me move

[petapan]

yes pooky that's why i was voting your slot before you replaced in

[petapan]

fuck off

[petapan]

Pooky is hard lolcatting and antispewing just hammer before the earwigs get too deep in your brain

i mean him getting like this was ensuring i was never unvoting anyway

[petapan]

you're right that i didn't give you a fair chance but when that's only so much you can do with the time given and it's not really a manageable situation for anyone

i'm not going to apologize though

[petapan]

i dont want your apology and i dont care for what you think

cool

[petapan]

time is not really a valid excuse.

I've played entire mafia games in 2 hours.

so the idea that you cant figure out my alignment in 24 or 48 hours is just hogwash

you wanted revenge and you got it

i hope thats out of your system now and we can play on a clean slate from here on out

don't count on a "from here on out"

[petapan]

yeah i'm done sorry to everyone else

[petapan]

VOTE: bridgeburners

idk

what's funny is i thought notsci losing interest and fading away was scummy, shirou just fooled me

[petapan]

i think secret hydra is basically towncleared off that flip given their interaction with shirou

[petapan]

do go on

~ skitteR

you found ways to keep calling me scum yesterday while also moving toward voting my scumreads (secret wasn't really a full scumread but did suspect them) and it didn't feel intellectually honest

[petapan]

5. the specific attacks he was making didn't sit right with me. like 1140 feels like it's trying to put everything about that post in the worst possible light - shirou says he's going to try to restrain his activity and gets attacked for this, somehow he is attacked for actively lurking the game before replacing in (which makes no sense), and shirou makes an offhanded comment about expecting ben to be a person who gets wagoned, and this gets called "discrediting the ben wagon while fence-sitting it", when really it is neither

ya know that take given this is not super great

~ skitteR

yes, that was a bad read on my part

[petapan]

i don't have very coherent worldviews this game

i was calling aaronfrost slot scum, you said my reasons weren't great, pooky reps in and you find a way to vote him anyway. i didn't like secret hydra's argument with shirou, you disagree but then later say you don't like their posts, while maintaining a scumread on me, i don't believe those are real positions you'd hold

[petapan]

given how the eod timecrunch + pooky's ate happened i don't think its entirely reasonable of you to ding me for voting pooky in that context

i can also dislike part of sechyd's posting while thinking they came off significantly better in their argument against shirou at the same time. i'm not sure why you think i can't feel both ways.

i also don't understand why all of these things are leading you to scumread me, or why you think i wouldn't have these positions as town.

~ skitteR

you didn't use the deadline crunch as a reasoning though, it was just moving toward finding him scummy because you claimed he was being survivalistic

i just think that if you actually cared about sorting people you're not going to fos both me and my scumreads at the same time, like if you were actually coming around to fosing the same people as me i would expect you to reconsider me but that doesn't happen and then i start to feel like you're keeping your options open

[petapan]

i don't think you're the scum nk in most universes
and i don't think you're a potential jk target in most universes (you're literally the one investigative we likely have, the jk would be blocking the result and you're not that likely to die anyways)

and i think the universe where you're the scum nk *and* the jk chooses to target you is p significantly unlikely

i haven't thought through yet the implications of the a potential bus driver and how that might impact this analysis tho

also sorry what are the three possibilities: jk, rb via joat, and ?

~ skitteR

what are you trying to imply here

[petapan]

i just think that if you actually cared about sorting people you're not going to fos both me and my scumreads at the same time, like if you were actually coming around to fosing the same people as me i would expect you to reconsider me but that doesn't happen and then i start to feel like you're keeping your options open

it was day1 and i don't have a problem fos'ing both a slot and their scumreads at the same time preflip, esp. given that the pooky scumread developed later after the slot got replaced; it wasn't like i was sititng there, while actively pushing and scumreading you, actively pushing and scumreaing aaron at the same time.

the change in slot changed the context, and yes i scumread pooky later but i don't think this contradicts anything or connotes intellectual dishonesty, and i think it's scummy of you to be pushign me for this

~

i was saying that i think ss's explanation for what happened last night is incredibly unlikely

that does not mean that i want to flip him today because of that tho, but i am paranoid that he's like scum engineering this given c9++ etc

~ skitteR

okay well cool my mood is fuck you, i'm town, i don't care to argue with you over this anymore, 1v1 me

[petapan]

also s_s looks insanely fucking town off shirou's iso

[petapan]

let me OMGUS

[petapan]

let me OMGUS

does this mean you dislike me providing more objectively acceptable reasons for a vote you want to indulgently make emotionally

i thought you were defending them maybe i didn't understand what you meant

but yes i just want the make the indulgent emotional vote

[petapan]

why was it a bad push?

[petapan]

okay, how does me being wrong on a read make me scum

[petapan]

okay, how does me being wrong on a read make me scum

This isnt what i'm accusing u of and i'm like >95% sure you know that

I'm saying the read was bad, not that the read was wrong. The fact that the read was wrong was incidental

~ skitteR

no i really don't understand

why was it bad. what does that mean, exactly. why does it make me scum. try to explain this because you really haven't

[petapan]

LOOKING FORWARD TO IT

[petapan]

they attacked shirou early after his replace in although looking back it's not as strong as i thought and they reached a detente with him so it's kind of meh, but the 1140 i didn't like yesterday is the start of the argument with him and i think they look better in light of the flip? my inclination is to say he doesn't attack his teammate right away when no one else is.

[petapan]

also not_mafia is probably town

[petapan]

they attacked shirou early after his replace in although looking back it's not as strong as i thought and they reached a detente with him so it's kind of meh, but the 1140 i didn't like yesterday is the start of the argument with him and i think they look better in light of the flip? my inclination is to say he doesn't attack his teammate right away when no one else is.

the resolution might kind of meh, but if you think it wasn't 'as strong' me pushing shirou, then i will quote the entire back and forth for you to reread. I gave everything I had into pushing shirou there.

-seCret

i'm sorry i'm a coward who does not want to make definitive statements even though i think it makes you prob town

[petapan]

Your vote/read on aaron looked incidental and like you didnt particularly believe it - but rather like you felt like you could join the push on him without generating too much suspicion

Your main reasons for voting him, as best as i can tell, was that he was underwhelming and didnt towntell enuf. (Not that he was particularly scummy, mind you, but rather that he wasnt really townie) + you just piggybacked off of dats' reason for scumreading him

It looked like you didnt actually scumread him, bit rather that it was a convenient push for you to have. I called you out on this at the time, but never really got a satisfactory answer

Also, implosion was being wagoned for really similar reasons but you wouldnt touch that wagon and the inconsistency still doesn't make sense to me either

~ skitteR

i addressed all of this already and you're just repeating the same things at me verbatim, you just want to paint a narrative and don't care about anything i'm actually saying

"underwhelming" was not a reason i was voting aaronfrost, i thought his posts had a tendency toward IIoA-y filler that you sometimes see from newbscum, there was a few instances where he made fencesitty statements that seemed to comment on current events without taking a stance, he seemed afraid to push people. it was wrong. doesn't matter, i really believed in it.

in fact i searched my goddamn iso and YOU have been the one accusing ME of being scum for being "underwhelming" this entire time, you're projecting right now - like, "underwhelming and didnt towntell enuf" is the basis of YOUR SCUMREAD OF ME. what a load of crap.

where is this assumption that i'm latching on solely out of convenience coming from? i legitimately believed in the read, just as much as i believed ben's claim was fake. i mean, the thing is, i probably WOUD have argued the same case as scum, because that was my scumread prior to replacing into the game. i would have been coming from a place of legitimate conviction regardless. i don't have trouble faking conviction, trying to argue that is stupid! and regardless, i DID really believe it, claiming i didn't is just narrativism on your part

none of this, NONE OF IT, is a good explanation for my read being "bad" and making me scum somehow. it's complete BS.

again, i did not feel the reasons for scumreading aaron and implosion were remotely similar. i pulled the posts on implosion and said i did not thnk the case against him was very good. i think if you actually cared about reading into what people were saying you would see these reasons weren't really at all similar - schiavetto was making points that he found specific implosion posts scummy, but other people were just agreeing/following along because they didn't find him particularly town, i guess.

(and for all i know, my reads could be dead wrong, and implo is actually scum. doesn't matter! with the reasons being what they were at the time, i made a decision based on available information and i think the arguments being made were very tangibly different and arguing otherwise is flying in the face of reality)

they attacked shirou early after his replace in although looking back it's not as strong as i thought and they reached a detente with him so it's kind of meh, but the 1140 i didn't like yesterday is the start of the argument with him and i think they look better in light of the flip? my inclination is to say he doesn't attack his teammate right away when no one else is.

Again i literally cited this post as a reason to townread him a week ago and you complained at the time

~ skitteR

okay? i was wrong and reevaluated in light of the flip. not hard to understand if you're not trying to go for easy points on me. like, seriously. i interpreted things one way at the time and when presented with information that showed one of my assumptions is wrong, i went back and re-evaluated. anyone would do the same, it's not scummy

[petapan]

most of shirou's interactions are so messy that i gave up on trying to read into them, not that i want to discourage you from trying, i just have no idea what to make of most of them

[petapan]

nope

[petapan]

not a bad point i suppose

i'll respond to the rest of the stuff skitter posted later i'm still waking up

[petapan]

most of shirou's interactions are so messy that i gave up on trying to read into them, not that i want to discourage you from trying, i just have no idea what to make of most of them

this reads partner-y with shirou and like infinity is on the right track lol

~ skitteR

-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in

any interest in switching to voting peta?

~ skitteR

kind of weird posts to be making in succession

[petapan]

i mean, i know you addressed these things already; it's not like i have anything new here per se, but you asked me to elaborate so i did.
like you're getting annoyed with me for saying the same things when you asked me to repeat them ...
(and i don't feel like your explanation therein really negates the fact that i view these things as scummy)

we don't really have to continue going around in circles; i'll respond to your response below but if you feel like it isn't really helpful i don't mind if you ignore it
i do feel like these things point to you having a scummy read on aaron tho, and i don't really think your explanations are changing my mind

no i think i'm actually going to keep fighting this because i think your explanations suck

he isn't newbscum, he's been around for a couple of years now. (i'm p sure i was an ic/se in his newbie game!!)
you're kinda failing to explain why it's more likely that the iioa stuff came from newbscum vs someone who didn't have much time and was just posting incidentally
i also think you're overexaggerating the amt of fence-sitting he did

like i think it's easy to paint aaron scum if someone wanted to join the wgon and was looking to do so, and i think that's exactly what you were doing

okay whatever get wrapped up in the technicalities, to a significant extent his posts avoided saying anything useful and i tend to find that scummy, the idea that this is an insufficient case for day 1 is ridiculous

like, in theory, hypothetically, as scum, i

would

press on that anyway but that's only because i, here, as town, mistakenly read it as scummy, the idea that i somehow should not have been reading it that way is stupid because this is how i try to read people and it's not at all dissimilar to how i've tried to read people in other games

i don't think i have? or at least not currently, maybe i did when you first repped in. now i'm accusing you of being scum for having bad reads that i think you're taking because they're expedient, rather than reads you truly believe.

again me having a bad read doesn't make me scum, that's complete bullshit, you have no basis to claim i don't "truly believe" this. first reference you made to me being "underwhelming" was 1801, to a significant extent the basis of your read on me was the shit you tried to accuse me of when you outright misrepresented my read

honestly, cuz you're a good player, and i think town!you takes a more nuanced approach than 'eh bad posting = newbscum'. like, quite simply, your read looks like you made it cuz you thought an aaron wagon could go through, so you had the read. i don't think town-you has that read there (or at least, if you did, you're just satisfied to sit on the wagon through eod for the reasons you're giving for scumreading him)

there's something uniquely galling about getting told a read i formed pre-role pm is fake and inconvenient

like, in theory this is not a reason to read me as town, because it's really totally null, if were scum i'd have the exact same read because the conviction behind it would be "real" since i made it pre replace in

but it just feels insulting to have something that no matter what would be "real" called fake

getting BoP read pisses me off, having it done by someone i have barely played with and have no track record of success playing with both pisses me off and doesn't make any sense

like, you don't know me, step the hell off. i'm playing like i always do

ok, why were the reason for scumreading implo worse than the reasons for scumreading aaron?

i already went into this in 1666 and 1778 where i went over the reasons for voting him. i said i didn't find them convincing then, i don't think they are

remotely

silimar to why i scumread aaron and you attempting to flatting them into being similar is complete nonsense because you're obviously not really reading into or concerned with the details of the reads

my point isn't inherently that you were wrong wrt ico. my point is that you were wrong wrt ico and are coming around to having the exact same read i had while still scumreading me. it would make sense to me if you were to go: 'oh skitter had a similar read to me now on ico, hmmmm she's approaching ico in a way that i know to be townie, ok let me take that into acct when reading her'. it doesn't make sense to me that you're kinda ignoring my ico read when forming a read on me

my read changed on the basis of the flip but i don't really

care

that you were right about that side of the interaction, that has exactly 0 importance to me, you being right about that doesn't make you town and i have no idea why you think it should, my point is your scumread on me is completely bogus and i'm not going to stand for it

[petapan]

actually before let me ask:

does anyone town read Bridges? If so why?

Scum reads on them?

It's the most neglected slot in the game probably, no one is talking much about it other than Isis that raised the case in the first pages.

This is anti-partnery

If I'm going too deep into a WIFOM hole someone tell me, I do think this is useful though

just for the record, i don't think this is anti-partnering. like, to me, the weird thing about shirou's whole treatment of bridgeburners is that, realistically, he knew they were never getting voted out, so it's not like you can look on it as a serious push and rule them out as being teamed

do i think that interaction is lockscum slamdunk distancing off that? no, not really. but please, do not clear them off of that

[petapan]

ok, so the reason you weren't voting me / going after me is ... ? like this seems like such a random line to drop, esp after saying i'm town off of associates and not giving any indication to thinking otherwise?

It's because your SR of me is so removed from your posting that I forgot it even existed. You voted me for my SR on sechyd, but I'm not pushing them anymore, and you didn't even comment on that. Was my unvote a scummy backtrack? Didn't change your read, but the fact that I SRed them in the first place is scummy enough that you're continuing to vote me? It's very strange, especially since no one else agrees with you, and you're not engaging with them or giving them reasons to change their mind. So what is this vote doing?

I don't remember saying anything about you in the shirou ISO

it's sitting there until i find a better place for it. i saw that you weren't pushing them anymore, i don't think it's worth commenting on. also, "you're not engaging with them" is funny considering i went to talk to skitter about it... less than an hour ago? also fun fact: i rarely go against consensus if i'm not *strongly* convinced the consensus is wrong. like, i don't have to have a super strong scumread on you in order to vote you?

and you didn't say anything about shirou. it was about notsci. 2452.

everything in infinity's posting today is really town imo, voting him just because his secret hydra read was goofy is a bad choice

[petapan]

no i think i'm actually going to keep fighting this because i think your explanations suck

ok! i'm gonna put it in spoilers tho!

Spoiler:

okay whatever get wrapped up in the technicalities, to a significant extent his posts avoided saying anything useful and i tend to find that scummy, the idea that this is an insufficient case for day 1 is ridiculous

like, in theory, hypothetically, as scum, i would press on that anyway but that's only because i, here, as town, mistakenly read it as scummy, the idea that i somehow should not have been reading it that way is stupid because this is how i try to read people and it's not at all dissimilar to how i've tried to read people in other games

it was surface-level scummy, sure, whatever, i agree with you. it. did. not. make. him. scum. tho.
and you definitely know better than to equate Bad Posting with scumminess, so the fact that you *did* is what i find scummy

iioa != scum
bad posting != scum
fencesitting != scum

and it's ridiculous that you're sitting here arguing with me that those things were why you were scumreading aaron.

if you at least were saying: eh idk i don't townread him but it's bad and i don't have anywhere better to go and we're running otu of time so i'll just vote the game i'm underwhelmed by
than like find i'd understand that and think it's a believeable stance
but this is a really, really silly stance to take

and i see later you're complaining about me bop-ing you
yeah it's annoying af and i hate when people do it to me. i agree. but at the same time, it *is* a valid way to read people, and you're halfway decent at this, so vague excuses for shitty scumreads won't cut it, i'm sorry

and i do think that i ahve enuf experience with you to be able to see you can be bop'd; i'm not sure why you think i wouldn't - i've got 3 towngames with you and i read you correctly in all of them; i know what your towngame looks like, and i know your scumgame is very good

again me having a bad read doesn't make me scum, that's complete bullshit, you have no basis to claim i don't "truly believe" this. first reference you made to me being "underwhelming" was 1801, to a significant extent the basis of your read on me was the shit you tried to accuse me of when you outright misrepresented my read

you having a bad read makes you scum when it's a read that i don't think town-you would ever have, yes

getting BoP read pisses me off, having it done by someone i have barely played with and have no track record of success playing with both pisses me off and doesn't make any sense

like, you don't know me, step the hell off. i'm playing like i always do

like i'm not trying to piss you off; i've already said i'm more than happy to stop the bickering if i am
but i think you're scum and i can't just drop the scumread because you don't like that i'm scumreading you
i apologize for pissing you off tho, that is not my intent

i already went into this in 1666 and 1778 where i went over the reasons for voting him. i said i didn't find them convincing then, i don't think they are remotely silimar to why i scumread aaron and you attempting to flatting them into being similar is complete nonsense because you're obviously not really reading into or concerned with the details of the reads

i don't get the difference.
can you eli5 because maybe i'm just missing something super obvious
(and i think it's kinda silly that you're saying i'm 'not concerned with the details of your reads' in response to a question where i ask you to explain the details of your reads)

why is that not a read i'm supposed to have? this is absolutely ridiculous

you've seen me in 3 games as town where my reads have largely been poor

and now i am public enemy number 1 for having an incorrect read based on stuff i found scummy

that is completely nonsensical

like i refuse to believe you have such a confident view of my own thinking to believe i would never incorrectly scumread someone for bad posting because i have certainly done that beforethe expectation is totally out of line with reality and there's no good reason to actually feel that way

and whenever i try to argue against this stuff you feel like you're being evasive and trying to shut this down, i'm not going to let you disengage when your case on me is clearly terrible


the reason i feel like you're not concerned with the details of my reads is because you kept misrepresenting what my actual arguments were, i explain things, you just barrel on ahead saying the same crap, maybe you change things around a little bit, but i can tell clearly when none of the words i say actually matter to someone

the case against implo as best as i can tell is this: schiavetto felt he backpedaled from his reasoning for voting ben when called on it by secret hydra, he made a kind of jokey post that was bargaining for a vote (actually in hndsight maybe 1051 is bad), and his maneuvering around them was shady in how he he was following along with them on ben but then bristed at suspicion and expressed a willingness to vote them in a jokey way. at the time i thought he was making a lot out of nothing, those posts seemed basically insubstantial. infinity was just "implo is scummier to me because i agree with schiavetto, and a lot of people are saying implo is scum but not committing to the read", secret hydra didn't like the sheep vote, isis was just because he didn't seem upset enough about being scumread


again this stuff is not at all similar to why i scumread aaron and trying to act like it is or that it's outrageous for me to have a preference between the two is ridiculous

[petapan]

like idk i'm sobutthurt over the allegation that i'm not supposed to have that scumread that i want to dump my entire pregame notes in here

notes which are, in effect, null because they were written before i had a role but i'm so frustrated at the allegation i'm not supposed to be thinking a certain way that i want to prove a point

[petapan]

Spoiler:

implo's entry in 54-55 is BS-y but in a town way, i think

too many townreads from infinity in 57 is a little forced, 64 is okay though, scum maybe not going to call so many people townie early. nvm, tongue in cheek

datisi's early posting looks town, strong questioning

slight town on penguin's 103 reacting to implo calling him hardtown because he hadn't really said anything terribly town indicatve

aaronfrost non-serious vote on schiavetto in 77 is slightly scummy, ignores the momentum of the thread trending toward seriousness

scipio disagree with infinity but calling him town for it in 81 i don't like, feels manufactured

aaronfrost's 84 is scummy. don't like the question in 88, feels busywork. 100 is horribly scummy, generic fillery statement

datisi is just town

don't understand gypyx's reads in 98 at all

dislike the readlist from menalque in a few places. very strongly disagree with 140. dings infinity for too many TRs but not implosion

I like 142 from infinity, "i wanted to townread you for being funny but then i realized i was tring you for being funny" just feels townie

i vaguely townlean 149 from scipio even, though i shouldn't, just saying he can't understand bridge

maybe extreme jokiness from mena rather than immediately trying to look town is town-AI

ben's reads in 162 are all very vague

165 from af is ok in that i agree about infinity. don't like following the meme vote in in 167 while making an excuse about the slp

scipio reasoning in 169 on bridgeburners play is fine, "too bad to be scum" is over-assuming but i think he believes it

170-171 from implo is pretty decent, maybe pinged a little at how he dissected ben's posting

as widely noted isis's 175 is bad, the reasoning in it is just bizarre

on flipthrough of penguin's iso there's just not as much as i'd like to see from him

criticism of isis from skitter in 218 is valid, don't know about townread of ben, that post seems like nothing to me

220 from isis is vaguely town for reaction to being pushed by skitter

264 bit lost from notscience is an okay sentiment as not much in those pages stands out as AI

really hate 293 from aaronfrost, fencesits on isis

secret hydra spam starting from 318 is unimpressive

vaguely townlean ben's 358 as question about townreads on penguinis good and agreement with infinity is fine

strength of implo's townread on penguin in 369 makes no sense

scipio's 373 and 374 feels kind of artificial, but maybe a newer player would see everyone as townie

i really like datisi's 377

infinity's vote in 378 is almost townie for how he justifies it on wagon composition where i'd expect scum to be more cautious

scipio's 385 town for concern

really hate pp's ben vote in 393

end of 439 by notscience i don't like that much

like datisi's aaronfrost vote in 476 as i was feeling the same thing, reasoning in 483 i agree with

notty's vote on schiavetto in 489 is lazy, just seems to be on an inactive player

schiavetto's 495 is...okay

notsci questioning implo in 510 is okay

point on schiavetto's timing in 511 is fine but disagree with the view on datisi

still a little puzzled at strength of implo's read on penguin

ben doing newbie hydra tell in 519??

kind of don't like the "idk where to vote" from bridgeburners in 559

penguin exchange with isis from 620-625 looks towny

kinda of like isis on page 25

681 - datisi is extremely gettin nightkilled

don't really like inplo 737-738

762 from bridgeburners can be a townpost?

774 from implo says what i am thinking

814 from ico feels townie, the way he expresses diagreement with isis

don't try to tell me how i'm supposed to think

[petapan]

because i have certainly done that before

can you show me an example please?

i feel like the pyp game was me having crappy tunnels of people for bad posting for multiple days in a row so it's alien to me that i'm to blame for suddenly having a wrong read in this game. i suppose you could also reference Micro 956 where i subbed in and had a similarly crappy tunnel on a new player for bad posting and wound up getting him eliminated even if i changed my mind at the last minute


but also i just did that note dump to prove that the idea i would

never

scumread his posts is just factually untrue

[petapan]

strictly speaking it was a matter of effort i felt i needed to expend to get the vote where here i didn't feel it was necessary to fully present a blow by blow case

anyway i guess i'll just leave it off here for now and look at other things

[petapan]

if i'm different i'm just more bitter now where at the start of that game i was riding an unearned confidence high

[petapan]

Also - PsA - please keep your OPs up-to-date as a mod. Helps players and list mods.

thank u

[petapan]

it isn't a good take on you

again sorry peta, wasn't trying to annoy you :/

~ skitteR

nah don't worry about it i'm just tilted all the time now

which is probably a sign

UNVOTE:

i'll look at things later

[petapan]

how does that vote follow 2655

[petapan]

everything? give me an elaboration of like, idk, the thing you found most townie?

the flipflopping on bridgeburners feels real, like he's changing his mind, i don't think he tries to push against secret hydra as scum off the shirou flip, he's like the only one actually going through and looking at shirou's posts and trying to draw conclusions from him, and i think the thought process in 2578 is really town from him, the way he's actually gauging implo's response is like, it doesn't feel like he's justtring to add momentum it all add up to him actively scumhunting today way more than most people

[petapan]

i'm going to take a look at the particularities of shirou's interactions with implosion b/c that was a thing that came up

1112 is jokey comment about implo "slipping" by not mentioning a game he was drafted as scum, not that it would really matter. i don't think anything of this post, can see that kind of banter

1131 and 1132 are complimenting implo's posts as being "objectively good" but saying the town points he can give out for them are limited

in his first readslist 1143 though he says implo is in a group where he suggests at least one must be scum along with aaron and datisi

1147 is where he tells implosion he has oo many town reads, i don't know, does he talk to a partner that way, that seems weird to me, but it's also a very strange trajectory where he seemed to be complimenting implo's posts but then calling him a suspect

this line in 1169 - "Implosion chance of being scum drastically increases if Datisi/Aaron is town. I'm not town clearing his slot yet without more confidence on him being town via dayplay." like is that a partner read? uuuuugh

1182 - "It's a similar enough case to implosion, I do like some of implosion posts, but I also think it would make sense for him to be scum at the moment." or this?

in 1186 he again repeats the "limit to saying objectively good things" point

i would add that, shit like his reads in 1189 are coatedin doubletalk, it's impossible to pin down a concrete stance on most people from him and that was probably the point from him

1220/1262

1354 - "I don't want to defend implo here and risk him flipping scum/it blowing in my face" eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeegh, does he defend a patner this way? it doesn't feel like it, to me

1367 - "why are people saying SS is scummy but benching to implosion" - he's really trying to get the vote on something_smart here, like you could say he's trying to save a partner as the ounterwagon but also he might have just wanted the day 1 tracker yeet which is high value

1464 - "I'm gonna say I'm rather lazy sheeping people on Schivi, I don't think they are that towny" as a pure aside, i noticed this read combing through and it kind of gives me the creeps. i feel like notscience's vote on schiavetto is anti-partnery, though

1651/1652/1655 - again he's voting s_s but at the point not

really

arguing to save implo, does it seem like he cares? to me it seems like he doesn't. he acknowledges it's likely to go through but doesn't really make any argument about it either way.

1693 but now he's fighting hardcore against the implosion wagon based on misinterpreting a post isis made about how s_s has to be town (and that whole thing probably points to isis-town)

1695 the aggression here actually suddenly does seem like it could be a partner defense, the way he's threatening people not to vote implo, like if you're going to go balls to the wall this is the way to do it

like, i don't know. if you forced me to guess i'd say this stuff does not look like teammates but you could tell me that it is and i wouldn't really be surprised. this is why i said i'm not really trying to read into shirou interactions beyond, like, the level 0 stuff of thinking s_s and secret hydra are town (or non-groupscum), because what i can go through is really a goddamn mess. i just want to guess at people off how they're playing individually. i'm not trying to dissuade anyone else from looking into things and drawing conclusions but i don't feel confident making a read based on this stuff (i probably should look at this from implo's end, too, just for sanity's sake)

notscience is probably better for that because he's much less calculated but he also was very limited in his output

[petapan]

i hate to make a big post that ends with effectively a shrug emoji but i feel the need to explain why i feel like that way lies madness for trying to read into shirou too much

i also want to note that since implo made that apathy post on being voted, he is about to hit prod timer, i know he said he didn't have time but that honestly feels +scum for him?

[petapan]

shirou has a really, really good scumgame and is good at screwing with associatives, so he's probably not the best to try to read in that way tbh

sdfgsdfgfgjghjghjfghdfghdfg when i said his associatives were a mess earlier you accused me of trying to throw people off or whatever

[petapan]

looks like he was trying to find a place an easy place to lay a vote down that might get some traction; it was like his one significant vote of the game and i don't think he does it on a partner out of nowhere (i.e. if schiavetto had been wagoned just then i would have thoguht it might be a distancing vote but i don't think i've ever really seen a distancing vote done in that way at that time before)

like i would be really surprised if that was a distancing vote - it makes a lot more sense to me as a 'hmmmm this looks like a semi-viable push to me rn let's see if i can get something going there' vote

having verrrry briefly scummed with notscience i would say, yeah, he just does not put a vote down on a teammate who's been inactive, way more likely he saw that as someone who hadn't said much that he could potentially push

[petapan]

what if i


VOTE: Datisi

[petapan]

u wanna go

yeah actually because while i thought you were town day 1 i feel like you fell into the background, getting bored with the game doesn't make a ton of sense, and also i did not really like your infinity vote - it felt like you were jumping on him for having a leftfield read on secret hydra, but i don't think it was a scum motivated one, and your response seemed overexaggerated - the "i CANNOT believe you would have this type of read" response where you attack someone for badlogic, because you can argue ~genuinely~ against it, but it's purely a reactive thingdoesn't actually cover the gap of why having a read would make him scum. that is probably a bit cheap to come at you with when you've just unvoted and admitted you didn't believe in the read anymore, but i still didn't like it!

[petapan]

how does that vote follow 2655

it doesn't

- hYdra

dude what

[petapan]

i swear to god you are singlehandedly undermining every bit of goodwill that shirou flip has bought you

[petapan]

no she's right, everything he's saying is staggeringly bad. if it was one weird take, i'd brush it off but the sum total of it is not thinking i believe comes from a town mindset

[petapan]

And implosion's progression on Aaron is uhh bad. Townreads him early, doesn't comment for a while, scumreads him for low content, then shifts to him when his wagon starts to develop.

I went and checked and this is actually a good observation - he did a similar maneuver when ben got run up, saying "I actually can't figure out why I thought ben was town" (832) when ben is getting run up and he decides to vote him - it's got a hint of the ol' buzzword,

opportunism

- uh his vote on us is literally the prototypical scum vibe of: oh a nice wagon is formingi think i can slip on with no prior reasoning!!1!

I feel like this is a thing that people get accused of doing far more often than they actually do.

it's a level 0 scumplay, not as common now as it used to be, but gypyx is not great at hiding it still

[petapan]

VOTE: bridgeburners

would love to try and get done with trying to see what's bridge tbh

and off to sleep, sorry y'all

- hYdra

Uh hi .....

Why are you voting me exactly?

sup'

numerous gutpings from both heads

and i'm not seeing towniness from you today, although no pingy stuff so far

- hYdra

to start, this isn't totally inconsistent, iconeum expressed suspicion on bridgeburners day 1 at least a couple times, so it's not a bad progression, but "numerous gutpings" is a pretty weak reason to be voting someone day 2, there's no elaboration on what these are exactly, there's no responding at all to anything skitter has posted today, and there is a lot of content, "no pingy stuff so far" just feels like an excuse to not actually try to say anything is scummy. i would expect someone scumreading bridgeburners to have

something

to say about their argument with me, but, nada. like, does he even care about what they're saying?

I don't understand why I'm not getting ss3 vibes from skitt, but she might still be scum. Idk

Skitt I specifically asked people's opinion on the shirou stuff

why are u looking at ss3 specifically? like, it's not even a "real" scumgame imo

this is attempting to discredit infinity's metaread, i think th reasoning is tenuous, even if scum had to play to a very particular win condition so that their strategy wouldn't necessarily be the same as a normal game, it's still informed vs uninformed, it's not a good reason to write off his read and the attempted dismissal here is too blithe

[snip]

i know i just said that shirou has good associatives but i think this whole thing is anti-partner-y for ss

~ skitter

well, i though 'bout that, and like, the read on s_s is *pretty* far fetched tbh, so like, it could totally be intended i think?

doesn't mean he's scum, but there's a world where he is, and it probably is similar to ours

- hYdra

speaking of trying to expand the poe, this is an example of that: trying to undermine the townreads on s_s off shirou's push of him.

now, the thing is: i considered the possibility that was a bus, it's not too far out there, a teammate makes a fakeclaim that you know will out them eventually, , in most cases you want to make yourself look good after they flip, not too crazy to attack them there. but i think the simpler explanation that shirou wanted to go for the big balls play and get a town tracker yeeted day 1 is more likely, and i think on his own merits s_s has been towny. it's also not worth worrying about because with 1 scum dead, a fakeclaim is likely to run out of room to manuever, and a town tracker probably just gets nk'ed at some point. but the way he expresses this sketchy, like, he wants to plant the possibility there

I just look at Gypyx's posts on the last page and they're all just so lackluster and I really wish I could feel good about that slot being scum :\. I kind of hate specifically-SK hunting as a matter of principal just because I don't think my reads are on average sufficiently good enough for it to be worth it unless SK is the only scum alive and I just do not see the "I thought I would be considered confirmed town" comments + the interactions with Shirou coming from the slot as scum.

need to think about this post tbh, can't decide if it's LAMIST or good stuff

nothing implosion said could be construed as LAMIST, and also it says literally nothing, doesn't really respond to implosion calling his posts lackluster, really just fencesits

how does that vote follow 2655

it doesn't

- hYdra

dude what

wanted to vote brigeboi, but i saw what i pointed out too

it ain't impossible for you both to be scum ya know

i mean this is just absurd to even suggest (unless you want to claim groupscum vs sk, but also: hahahahaha no), but the way he does it is lazy, and like what i was mentioning earlier, he somehow calls off our argument calling me overly emotional (not an unfair assessment tbh), but then somehow votes bridgeburners without mentioning anthing they've said. like, if someone sees their scumread arguing with someone, is this how they respond to it?

If someone could engage me on something specific, that would be great. I need a way to get my head back into the game, and with all the fluff it's been hard.

this post is litterally me tbh

- hYdra

and this is just bad filler

[petapan]

i still sort of want to question datisi, and i feel i shouldn't stand in the doorway on implosion after day 1 but for right now at this moment in time

VOTE: secret hydra

SOLIDARITY

[petapan]

i just kind of want to convince people not to touch peta schiavetto and S_S. and probably infinity too

right now i'm at infinity, schiavetto, S_S, and PP town (cue implosion grumbling), and also, sadly, Not_Mafia and i feel like that's a pretty decent group of townreads?

anyway gonna sleep now

[petapan]

that's a thought of someone who is not actually paying attention to what is going on

[petapan]

also peta, your reluctance to really engage with me this game is starting to ping me. I'd think that town!you wants me to see as town here, given our prior relation.

i don't know what to say to that, most of the time when you post it's deep nighttime for me, i'm more familiar with your scum game than your town game (and, like, you have not individually impressed upon me that this is totally different from your scumplay), and you've been MIA for over a week or whatever

what i am noticing you not engaging with is the giant post i made where i explained

why

all the stuff gypyx posted was bothering me and just potshotting the one-liners, and handwaving away skitter's reasoning in 2885. i know you can't answer for gypyx but you want engagement, you need to start actually responding to my reasoning

[petapan]

@peta well that's too fucking bad because i genuinely thought (and still think) that his read on sechyd was garbage!! like sure maybe i am wrong on it being a scum one but it was bad and you cannot change my mind. also like it's p obvious? if the read feels like it was bullshitted, then it would make him scum bc town generally does not do that. (note that while i still very much think it was garbage, maybe it wasn't bullshitted.)

okay?? little weirdly over the top here. my point is even if you viscerally disagreed with the read, an immediate "terrible take die scum" is, like, going 0 to 100 in 2 seconds and that is bothersome behavior because as i explained, having a read you don't like doesn't necessarily mean it comes from scum and i am less inclined to see infinity-scum making that read at all, you just sort of jumped to that conclusion

this is avoiding the point thati'm not sure what you're dong in this game anymore, you haven't been scumhunting, i don't actually know where you stand on anyone, you being disinterested and no longer super town looking like i thought on day 1 is concerning

reskimmed shirou/ico from d1 and i still really don't think that is s/s

the thing is, i would probably still agree with this, and i'm not going to argue seccy d is exactly the sk, but it is not strong enough reason for me to overlook a strong level of individual scumminess from gypyx's posting (and, uh, iconeum has not alleviated that feeling). i think that's aways going to override any associative read for me

[petapan]

A part of me actually really doesn't like skitter's take on sechyd; it's logically fine but I also felt Infinity's comment on opening the limpool and her response feels indignant in kind of a bad way. She has an amount of rhetorical sway and there are a lot of people like me and Penguin who have listed sechyd as some sort of ambiguous read (at least I described myself as wanting to vote him but not being able to or something like that, penguin listed them somewhere pretty low on his reads list, maybe others) to the point where she as scum could definitely feel like she'd be able to lead on them. Specifically I don't like the indignation in this post:

Because your SRs (peta and now sechyd) are on slots that I think would seem pushable to scum but aren't being scumread by other people

I think that's at least at little +scum

i mean ... don't you think i would push people who would, like, have a chance of getting flipped? what's the point of pushing the slot that literally everyone says isn't partnered with the flipped scum

and, like, do you think his posting this evening was good?

i'm actually gonna vote him, it's literally that bad VOTE: sechyd

Like. If you're

town

then what's the point of pushing the slot that "literally everyone says isn't partnered with the flipped scum"? Just because?

i mean we spent a significant part of the day going "yeah not teamed with shirou" and i certainly don't walk that read back as scum, i doubt she does either, the

point

of pushing that case is that the belief overrides the reasoning people have for them being town

[petapan]

if you are all truly scumreading us despite my words here

go right ahead and flip us

i do not currently have the strength to combat multiple of you

i've said what i wanted to say in my (our) defense, i strongly believe it should be rather easy to come to a town!read on us *despite* what you call scummy posting

at least i'll be able to smack pooky in the dead thread

-seCret

or you could just talk to me instead of doing AtE??

you: peta it is scummy that you are not engaging with me

me: well you haven't engaged with my actual reasoning for scumreading you

you: WELL FLIP ME IF YOU WANT

like

what

actually i just realized something that makes it less likely for ico to be scum here but outing it would not be beneficial

uh, ok

[petapan]

person pretending to be iconeum if i am wrong on you tell me where i am going wrong

[petapan]

Kind of low on energy to commit to this game rn.

If I wind up getting flash-rest-of-the-wagon'd then just, like, my dying will is that you at least reconsider penguin. And also i still have no idea why people are taking N_M out of their PoE. I feel pretty good about this game even if i'm ME'd here with shirou being dead. Except for the other wagon today being on bridge. Still don't think bridge flips scum in this game. at least, like, quite rarely.

Yeah implo is scum.

One of the reasons I wanted to vote implo is I wanted to see if he would have his energy sapped from scum being in a bad spot really early; isis in ss3 reminded me of this. This is exactly that.

Also I have recent firsthand experience

You mean like, firsthand experience of you having energy sapped?

To be clear, as I said, the energy sapping thing was strictly from life stuff and I am now feeling a lot better about this game (or at least, am actually enjoying it again atm even if I don't feel confident about reads).

I really don't see why people are critical of Ico's spate of posting. I think it shows an earnestness that scum in a bad spot who is drained from having dealt with RL stuff and who then had to deal with his hydra partner being piled on would have trouble showing. I don't see why 2909 is actively bad, it seems neutral to me. The kind of things that peta and skitter are pointing out e.g. 2895 are just not alignment indicative to me. Like, the fact that he's talking about peta + skitter as scum does show that he's either missing pieces of game state or not explaining some far-out theory but I don't see why missing a piece of game state like that would be scum-indicative. I don't think scum is more likely to just like, have missed the entire first half of today so far, and I don't see why scum-ico posits that scum pairing if he read the beginning of the day. It's not like scum would forget how much the two were at each others' throats. It would have to be just purely sloppy. I agree it's not something that makes a ton of sense from town; it's also not something that makes a ton of sense from scum.

I also like some individual posts in the spate, like 2879, 2889 (i am biased but etc), and the fact that he's describing things from me that he sees as townish but still isn't putting me in his town pile.

I also don't understand why skitter is saying she needs help on ico after she was already scumreading him and seemingly he posted... more scummy stuff, as she saw it? Like I'm sure she will have some reason for it but it really feels like something she could do as scum to like, inject some nuance into the read/interface with a townie/etc. Idk. A couple people already commented on it being weird and I can't quite put together why I don't like it because it is probably something that town skitter can do too.

do i need to tell you what alignment is less likely to read everything posted in the thread, or wonder why his hydra partner is seemingly not filling him in

[petapan]

SKs kick ass, tbh. sad to see they have fallen out of favor in the time i was away

[petapan]

In a way the fact that peta hasn't actually reckoned with his read on me should be troubling? I guess he's not really being shy about it since he did mention it two days ago explicitly and if he's town it kind of makes sense that he's had higher priority stuff to care about all day with bridge and sechyd. It is kind of a believable thing as scum if I try to think of how petapan-scum would try to interact with me in the context of this game, in that world I'm probably a weird unknown since I haven't played in forever and so it might make sense for him to just not want to deal with calling me either way. Although it'd be just as easy for him to just call me town in his crusade against all of the reasons people have scumread me...... which is a weird thing to say on its own but like it's basically what he's done

it's actually because i didn't know how to read you but didn't want to yeet you day 1 without good reason. now, though, well...less sure of that

[petapan]

let me be over the top if i want to goddammit

ok but here's the thing, peta: it looked f a k e a s f u c k to me. like did it think that i might have been wrong? yeah sure wouldn't be the first nor the last time. but infinity was on zero votes. he wasn't on e-1, or n_m's e-1, he was on zero votes. what does it matter. why would i not vote there. we can sit here and argue, but like you're not gonna convince me that my infinity suspicion was bad because you happen to not see how one gets that read?

lol lemme tell you a secret, i'm also not sure what i'm doing. though i feel like that is decently false, like i'm obv town on ico, i'm trending town on infinity, i said implo's reads kinda don't make sense as scum, i said you/skit is prob t/t, like? read. also like lol what can i tell you. that's what happens when day 1 is 40 pages and 7 days longer than it needed to be, and also everyone left alive in the game has some sorta reasons to be townie.

i mean, like, if something sticks out to me i'm gonna question it, not about trying to convince you on this but to interrogate your thinking because i wasn't sure it was real. it's not about it being bad but not thinking it was a believable response, although, putting it as "it looked fake to me" is more plausible. probably shouldn't chew this over any more but i felt like picking at it because i was concerned

but, well, "game hard and i don't know what to do" is at least something understandable! i probably could have just asked for your reads rather than taking this approach, w/e

[petapan]

less sure that you don't know how to read me or less sure that you don't want to yeet me day 1 without good reason

less sure that i should be standing in the way of you getting yeeted, i wrote that poorly

SKs kick ass, tbh. sad to see they have fallen out of favor in the time i was away

also i am probably literally responsible for this to a large degree

now i will yeet you

[petapan]

actually i don't know why i'm couching it in ambiguity you're probably my number 2 vote after secret hydra repeatedly put their foot in their mouth

[petapan]

gut is telling me that BB slot is actively looking for justification in their push on me

i'm not quite sure about peta - I wanna hang on to my earlier townread of him which is still based on meta experience with scum!him and this just doesn't sound like scum!him

-seCret

can you elaborate on this? i felt like 1 game shouldn't give you that confidence but i wanted someone else to ask about it because i felt asking about it woud be too ego-driven, and i've screwed up before thinking people shouldn't be townreading me when they did. however, since no one has asked i will do it: what led you to that conclusion, because that's a strong read to have off of a single game worth of experience

[petapan]

if this is the peta case i'm not answering then maybe that is because literally every single point in there is about hYdra, and not about seCret

i'll give you wha

okay but like

what were the "numerous gutpings" you apparently had against bridgeburners, that you have apparently discussed together

[petapan]

gut is telling me that BB slot is actively looking for justification in their push on me

i'm not quite sure about peta - I wanna hang on to my earlier townread of him which is still based on meta experience with scum!him and this just doesn't sound like scum!him

-seCret

i get wary because a vague explanation off a limited meta sample can easily be lazy reasoning from scum where typically i'd expect town to be wary, but i have to set aside, people have gotten it right before
can you elaborate on this? i felt like 1 game shouldn't give you that confidence but i wanted someone else to ask about it because i felt asking about it woud be too ego-driven, and i've screwed up before thinking people shouldn't be townreading me when they did. however, since no one has asked i will do it: what led you to that conclusion, because that's a strong read to have off of a single game worth of experience

i'd prefer having *more* then 1 game, but I don't. All i have with you is that 1 game. I'm a very gut/feelings kind of player, and I just don't see the scum!you in this game. Your push on us feels off, but i've properly read your case on hYdra now and I can see where you coming from even if it's mistaken.

-seCret

@peta

another argument (use it as u will)

you have seen how i treat scumpartners first hand
you have seen how i am someone who, as scum, will try to divert attention away from scumpartners

you can't honestly believe i was pulling that shit with shirou as s/s
which means you can only conclude we are the SK
without actual proof of there being a SK

datisi already properly explained why it's also highly unlikely we are a SK

which is why I thought your conclusion was lackluster and off

i get you being pinged by gypyx posting, but take it into the full picture and I think you'll come to the right conclusion here

-seCret

i was perfectly content to let you slide despite some prior misgivings because of that stuff with shirou, and then gx started posting in a way i'd expect from him as scum. i'm a little worried about your backtracking here when you got called on it, but eh, let's call a truce for now

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: implosion

atp i am ready to move the game forward

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

i should really pay attention to the votecounts on the same page, if you're gonna claim, now is the time

[petapan]

VOTE: implosion

[petapan]

yes

i don't really understand why this matters though

[petapan]

im not but thank you

[petapan]

personally i think all mods should have the players acknowledge the mafia have daytalk when confirming their roles

[petapan]

i'm going to pretend me going "well implosion doesn't look like a shirou partner, buuuuut on individual play he is scummy" was a work of genius and not me ranomly stumbling onto the correct conclusion by not really having a clue

[petapan]

by revealed roles and s_s's claim of being blocked we know either there's 3 or 5 PRs left (prob 3) or s_s is lying scum who can't win

i think he should out his report then people should claim?

[petapan]

also lololololololololol,oolololololololololol at mr sk hater rolling sk

[petapan]

I did get a report. It was not a visit to Infinity. I agree that I should out who it was on, but I don't see why we'd massclaim now.

if there's 3 claims it clears those people and easier to sort out future night actions, unless the exact configuration is, like, tracker/1-shot tracker/vengeful or something

[petapan]

No massclaim in 8-1thats silly

the only way it could be 8-1 is if something_smart is the last mafia member, because that would mean he is lying about being blocked, as there would be no way a role that could block him could exist in a TTTTT setup (only 2 town PRs)

otherwise, the setup is TTT or T, as there exists either a mafia JOAT or a jailkeeper who targeted s_s

[petapan]

here is a guide to potential setups we are in for people who don't want to look stuff up:

TTTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Serial Killer <- for this to be the case, a blocking role either does not exist or is a counter claim to something_smart, which would make him confirmed scum. we would already be in autowin if this were the setup, but i don't think it is

TTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer <- there are guaranteed 4 town power roles, 3 currently left alive with infinity's flip

T = Mafia Goon, Mafia 1-Shot Bus Driver, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer <- there are 6 town power roles, 5 left alive with infinity's flip. this feels not super likely b/c it would mean more than half of the players currently alive are town power roles

[petapan]

VOTE: secret hydra

[petapan]

Also 3 T's is not guaranteed 4 PR's. III or RR can cause fewer PR's than there are non-T letters. (Though if it's III, I commend the other tracker for not counterclaiming ben.)

oh i'm dumb, i guess scratch the claim stuff

[petapan]

something_smart - very likely town both by mechanics and play, has actual reads, isn't playing like a dead man walking because of his claim
penguinpower - feels real, can't point to a particular moment but when he makes content posts it looks serious and scumhunt-y
bridgeburners - honestly, at this point, no one seems that likely to be partnered with them. just doesn't seem that likely to be a hit imo
schiavetto - has faded but was all right early, still reasonably not partnered with notscience. starting to angle toawrd bridgeburners yesterday wasnt great though
not_mafia - showing flashes of actually giving a shit which is town for him
datisi - idk, still not feeling his withdrawal from the game, but reaction to me yesterday was okay, no obvious opportunism. might have been saved by infinity but maybe not if there's a jk
isis - down here mainly because i don't have a strong reason to townread her
secret hydra - don't think the shirou interactions are clearing and both heads are kind of playing like i'd expect from them as scum, has a feeling of inauthenticness to some of their posts

[petapan]

bridgeburners - honestly, at this point, no one seems that likely to be partnered with them. just doesn't seem that likely to be a hit imo

what about you

I was thinking schia/bridges were reasonably partnery.

not impossible but i probably always flip schiavetto first in that case

[petapan]

Also, i townread peta fairly strongly now as well, sorry for the earlier tunnel

s'okay, part of the game

pfff that peta post bothers me so much

he literally KNOWS i play protect the buddy as scum

i went hard against the 'buddy' this game if i'm scum

says that this is what he expects from me as scum????

no comprende

-seCret

you never actually voted him and the whole thing concluded with "hm, you may be town after all" so, no, for me it's not particularly clearing

[petapan]

you could but they're probably town

[petapan]

something_smart - very likely town both by mechanics and play, has actual reads, isn't playing like a dead man walking because of his claim
penguinpower - feels real, can't point to a particular moment but when he makes content posts it looks serious and scumhunt-y
bridgeburners - honestly, at this point, no one seems that likely to be partnered with them. just doesn't seem that likely to be a hit imo
schiavetto - has faded but was all right early, still reasonably not partnered with notscience. starting to angle toawrd bridgeburners yesterday wasnt great though
not_mafia - showing flashes of actually giving a shit which is town for him
datisi - idk, still not feeling his withdrawal from the game, but reaction to me yesterday was okay, no obvious opportunism. might have been saved by infinity but maybe not if there's a jk
isis - down here mainly because i don't have a strong reason to townread her
secret hydra - don't think the shirou interactions are clearing and

both heads are kind of playing like i'd expect from them as scum, has a feeling of inauthenticness to some of their posts

elaborate?

eh with regard to hYdra it's like, he can't really fake scumhunt yet so he spits out whatever he can to seem active but itsn't really trying to solve the game and there won't be a logic to what he's saying. for seCret, admittedly experience there is thin, we were scum together in one game but it's like, here his bursts of posting feel performative in a way, it's geared toward showy emotion and hitting a few stray comment on things every time he shows up, itjust seems more driven toward making stray attacks than analysis. not the best explanation but it's what i have, can try to go into detail later, tired and sore from work today

[petapan]

you never actually voted him and the whole thing concluded with "hm, you may be town after all" so, no, for me it's not particularly clearing

it's not the conclusion, it's the interaction itself which is allignment indicative

or in this case, the evidence that i'm not partners with shirou

you know that

you've literally seen it in action from the first row

i don't attack buddies like that, i try to protect them

so how is that exactly pointing towards what you'd expect from scum!me?

-seCret

reducing this to a binary of, like, attack/defend is an oversimplification, and also oversells the extent to which you really pushed shirou. there was never a vote, votes signal seriousness, and in fact you gave an excuse for not voting him him right away, the fight didn't really draw attention from most of the playerlist, so it wasn't likely either of you would get in trouble for it. it's not like you'd never attack a partner and engage in theater if your perception was that you didn't like their play, and in fact i find people tend to overestimate how scummy their scumbuddies are, you'll often see partners calling each other out prematurely for things that other people don't notice (e.g. my last scumgame, popcorn mafia, where my teammates were tripping over each other to cross bus each other but they wound up giving incredibly ridiculous sounding reasons)

there's also the simple matter of fact that the interaction began with 1140 and ended with 1171, a very short amount of time later, where you concluded with "maybe ur town here" because...shirou said he solves in brackets. frankly, you backed down on it way too quickly, in a way that doesn't make sense, and then had this awkward little dance where you threw occasional jabs at each other but never really attacked, and kept trying to deescalate (1471). which kind of looks like...not really wanting to continue attacking shirou.

it's also again really putting an overemphasis on a very small section of the game when your overall play just does not come across as town to me because i don't get the real sense you're scumhunting and your tone feels inauthentic

[petapan]

i'm confbiased b/c on reread i keep seeing it as theater, but. i feel relatively decent about my townreads right now and in a 9p that narrows things down enough to make it easy

[petapan]

He literally went, day2: you're scumreading me???? You must be scum!!!!!!
That's literally what yoy're describing his scumgame as in the bolded above

bleh, i didn't get a ping on it being that way at the time, so rn i can't even recall the posts, so this is a note to look at that tomorrow

and sorry for being unclear, my "lurked as scum in pyp" comment was about gypyx (a more recent run of pyp). like ik he lurks as scum. i'm asking if you have any town exp where he lurked like that (or any town exp i guess)

Yes please take a look at that tomorrow because i think his reaction to my initial scumread p much fit how you described his scumgame to a T

Also - i was in the most recent run of pyp? And town-gypyx got misflipped day2, no? And i'm p sure i disagreed with it, no? And he wasnt lurking there

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

that was thegoldenparadox, not gypyx

[petapan]

wrt Gx i just feel like him fleeing the second he faces any significant adversity is telling

[petapan]

i had a dream where bridgeburners got flipped and was somehow the last scum even though that shouldn't be possible and i was apologizing in postgame for being bad

just wanted to share that

[petapan]

i doubt they are flipping scum though

[petapan]

petapan are you scum?

nah

[petapan]

meh 2 of them are scum and 2 of them are not trying

[petapan]

You don’t get a pass given how little you’ve been doing. Make sure sechyd dies tomorrow

-QB

is that directed at me, because i've said what i could this phase, i don't know what effect pounding the tables for you would have. the bottom 3 of my poe are voting for you and i expect scum to be inflexible in voting for you here so, idk. isis has been weird in her approach where supposedly she's confident in the townreads but has made a show of being indecisive, datisi just feels like the uife has been drained out of him which is what i'd expect from him as scum, schiavetto is barely playing, i dunno, two of those are prob town but what the hell am i supposed to do

[petapan]

VOTE: secret hydra

cool so can we finally kill the hydra that has hardpushed two townies where both went down screaming how fucking scummy it was? or are we going to be dumb again

[petapan]

lol

[petapan]

regardless of flip mass claim tomorrow

[petapan]

okay whatever, bury schiavetto tomorrow

[petapan]

sorry for this game being a car wreck

[petapan]

lmao

[petapan]

preemptive sorry for being terrible this game

[petapan]

i don't really care i guess

[petapan]

more than a little bit


burnt out and frustrated

[petapan]

i'm vanilla town

you, uh, you realize fakeclaiming doesn't work here, right? unless cakez botched the setup generation?

[petapan]

unless you were just trying to dissuade a possible counter

[petapan]

well you're not dead and in endgame so i have not yet lost the last glimmer of hope i had

this confirms that the strongman was used n3, correct?

[petapan]

Mafia JOAT (Roleblock, Ninja Kill, Strongman Kill)

s_s died the night you targeted him so i assume they burned the strongman, which they'd have every reason to

the roleblock was used on s_s n1 so it's safe to assume the scumteam were burning through their abilities and the track on NM n2 is meaningless because the ninja was probably used hen

this also mechanically confirms schiavetto as non-joat

[petapan]

it's TTT which means there is no bus driver, thank god

[petapan]

i did a 10 second look at datisi and i don't think him and schiavetto are s/s which means i think the play is to just kill NM

[petapan]

I think you are adding a connotation from tunneling than anything. I don't think he doesn't care he just doesnt want to stamp his feet and make us look one place when hes not confident it's the right place to look. I think calling a wagon scumpushed is such an easy thing to do as either side of an alignment and him doing the more difficult thing in being apprehensive and nonchalant gave me good vibes.

If you put a gun to my head I'd say you were town. But I said you were town in haunted village too. I don't think I've got a good grasp on how far you've come since smuggler's port.

And I offered my vote for a limerick and noone has jumped on it. Looking at the recent votecount, I don't hate who is on the Isis wagon but I still think she's town and don't want to vote there. I'm townreading ben. I could vote notmaf for being notmaf but I did that in masons and monks and was wrong and actually want to feel solid about pushing something.

mmmm.

VOTE: Schiavetto

i started typing out a reply how i don't think he's doing the more difficult thing by appearing ~nonchalant~ because finding scumreads as scum and having them appear genuine can be a more difficult thing than saying "i dunno" but having it typed out it felt like tunneling garbage. i should probably reread that interaction, preferably at a time that isn't 2am.

i don't want to be reminded of that game

i was gonna ask why are you voting for schiavetto if you want to feel solid about pushing something (or rather why do you feel solid about pushing schiavetto) but your recent post pretty much answers it so

early game, this conversation with notscience probably not a conversation that happens with a partner who is bussing their 3rd partner

Hey datisi, how would you feel about voting schiavetto?

-QB

no opinion.

answer my q about how you're reading ico and i might help you out.

gypyx’s posting was god awful enough

i mean yes it was but like ico was townie and i was hoping for a reality check from you there

Are you feeling more open to voting schiavetto now?

-QB

i mean maybe but i'm thinking if i can make you do anything else to buy my vote here

actually i don't care enough about this game even for that

VOTE: schiavetto

some days later i guess idk, there wasn't a ton of chance schiavetto would go over but it was still an environment where bussing would have been terribad

[petapan]

thats just my opinion tho

[petapan]

that is the sticking point, of course

and in a NM-town world this is exactly where scum wants him, but.

[petapan]

maybe. datisi/notscience interactions aren't great

[petapan]

in a vacuum he's done way more but the baseline for him is way higher and he's steadily sunk below it. datisi please talk to me

[petapan]

well this is me confirming it's not me and n_m

[petapan]

in a vacuum he's done way more but the baseline for him is way higher and he's steadily sunk below it. datisi please talk to me

helo. what do you wanna talk about.

why shouldn't i believe you are scum? your loss of enthusiasm and lack of scumhnting isn't one i typically associate with you as town. i know that sort of argument is flawed and annoying but i need to go off something here i guess.
what's your read between me and not_mafia?

[petapan]

it is a probability shift, yeah (fmpov it's dats goon/NM joat, dats JOAT/NM goon, schi goon/dats JOAT, schi goon/NM JOAT, schiavetto is 50% to be mafia while the other two are 75%. if you keep me as a suspect the math is similar, shiavetto is less likely to be mafia either way)

there's also the thing where the vote from notscience is maybe non-partnery thing anyone alive has going for them

on instinct i think datisi's tone entering today was off but i don't trust my instincts anymore

[petapan]

on instinct i think datisi's tone entering today was off but i don't trust my instincts anymore

peta, you said you wanna talk to me, talk to me. what about it was off?

i dont know lol

i need ~something~, i didn't have anything in mind to talk about but if you're town you need to convince me

[petapan]

ive been dreading actually reading and replying but i guess i have to do it sometime

[petapan]

Maybe show me people to deadsheep about it. You feel off to me also.

come on, you know i can't show you that.

on instinct i think datisi's tone entering today was off but i don't trust my instincts anymore

peta, you said you wanna talk to me, talk to me. what about it was off?

i dont know lol

i need ~something~, i didn't have anything in mind to talk about but if you're town you need to convince me

s i g h
peta i don't know how to convince you. i don't know what makes people read me the way it does.

also i am so tired from mafia because literal two days ago i took a town that was on route to victory and single-handedly torpedoed it into the grand canyon. but i really really don't want it to happen again.

like you were reading me correctly on day one.

later on you accused me of not solving but that's both false and kinda a flawed argument. i was solving where i was able to - the issue was that i'd missed a good chuck of late day 1 which didn't help. but it's also a flawed argument because i know how to fake reads as scum, and bullshitting scumreads isn't difficult. like on day two, iirc there were shitfights around isis, there were shitfights with you and bb. (i'm assuming you're town here bc if you aren't then lol) like i could've taken advantage of those t/t things. instead i'd sat aside, weakly called y'all town, pushed infinity???

day three i actually thought mena was being scummy. me/him/ico have a long history of playing together, and mena prides himself in being able to read ico correctly (i think like every game except their first game together?). the fact that (1) he kept insisting that ico was scummy (2) genuinely wasn't trying to read the parts of the game that i felt were very town!indicative for ico made me think he's scum. it was kinda a dual bop on both me and him wrt reading ico. which was obviously half wrong but it made me think the slot is scum.

like it's hard for me to interact w "idk convince me" bc in vast majority of cases i never actually have to do that - people are convinced themselves. that's why i'm asking you, what is it that you're finding scummy. bc i don't know what else to do and i really REALLY don't wanna be the sole reason why a town has lost a game twice in the same week

yeah i did see that game. condolences. mishammering sucks

i mean i guess i had just found your dropoff scummy, like the energy that was there day 1 just kind of went away and there are incidental interaction things with notscience. but. "not townie enuf", to quote skitter, has been a pretty poor metric for finding scum this game. and it would be the biggest absolute dickshot for me to second-guess my initial read on you and lose off it because even if your reads were

wrong

i felt a lot of that stuff reading along

[petapan]

I guess I would want to watch you sort but the game's kind of sorted from your PoV I guess if you buy into peta!town
Tell me how you would analyze NM's hammers/nothammers

i can tell you about my theory that you were scum preparing for my yeet in final 5 because on d3 you made a post like "i wanna think about either bb worlds or datisi worlds" but when d4 came by, you no-comment voted secret hydra while knowing that there'd be appetites for that yeet, and bc i'd be an ~easy~ push in final 5 bc you could call back to your suspicion on me from d3, and also you were kinda more widely townread than me and most likely win that 1v1 so.

obviously this all fell apart bc you're the jk but maybe it helps showing where my head was at, idk

i mean i've been town on him but i don't actually *know* how to read peta. but i don't think i could ever convince you to vote him anyway so it's like. i'm taking my previous ~townread on him and running with it because the game's not winnable if it's wrong anyway.

this is also a difficult question bc while i vaguely know n_m's rep, i don't actually know if his behaviour is ever ai one way or another.

ok, i reskimmed his iso again and the genuine answer would be that i do not know. like, if i wanted to, i could argue that his pattern of not hammering pooky (town), but then hammering implo, bb, sechyd (3 non-groupscum) is scum!indicative because the only time he didn't hammer someone / expressed a townread on them was when it was practically a done-deal that they're flipping, and there were enough people that wanted pooky dead... actually, wait, pp was voting sechyd the whole of d3, no? and he wasn't on the final wagon.

aaaagh. n_m didn't have to hammer sechyd there, likely pp does the job for him. *but* he also never expressed any sorta read on sechyd, so not hammering wouldn't really be town!indicative while there was another person ready to do it, bc he never genuinely tried to divert from sechyd and "not hammer" would obviously be just for show. so he wasn't really giving up any towncred by hammering there.

analyzing the patterns in a vacuum, the answer is "lol idk". if there really is precedent to n_m being more likely to actually play the game / express reads as town, then it's +scum, but that's meta i don't have.

i am a sucker for the talking about the paranoid theorizing about isis stuff. (though the comment about thinking i was jk fell in that category but looking back it only came after the flip so not as strong. i was kind of trying to project the possibility of being pr earlier, when bridgeburners was musing about the possibility of there being only 2 groupscum i shut that down, because speculating on that is a low-key VT claim or subtle rolefishing)

also lmao at "i don't know how to read peta, so i'll try to read not_mafia", because i would like to think i'm more readable than him, at least

[petapan]

I feel like I have not voted scum all game and am trigger shy

i mean my record this game is horrible too so i'm gunshy and don't want to take responsibility but if i have to i'll review things

just really need to get one right today which shouldn't be that hard from my pov

[petapan]

i mean i guess i had just found your dropoff scummy, like the energy that was there day 1 just kind of went away and there are incidental interaction things with notscience.

i get that. like i get that but the game started tiring me out, peta. day one was dragging out when it should've been half as long. i'd wake up to like 10 new pages, and i'd read them, and i'd feel i was getting *nothing* from them. and picking up day two after feeling like that for a good chunk of day one is difficult for me. like i said, i had it happen in a different game, where my contributions then boiled down to nothing but prodging and getting yeeted in mylo. i knew i probably wouldn't be able to offer the ~obvtownness~ i had early game but i figured something is better than nothing and i tried to act where my gut was taking me

i know i'm obviously biased but do you want to talk about those interactions?

ehh, interaction stuff are things you can never really respond to because it's like, well, you can't really account for whatever the hell notscience was doing. but from his brief time in the game, you get 439, which is kind of neutral questioning stuff and he ends with a non-read on you. more of that stuff in 489 (although in hindsight your post quoted there is, at least, a little more sharp on interrogating him than i thought). and that's also the famous schiavetto vote post, which because i am now in cosmic brain mode has me saying "hey, it could be distancing, you never know". and then his last comment on datisi is again a waffly crappy read in 523. it's almost so bad i wonder if he talks that way about a partner, lmao

i'm going to review something real quick

[petapan]

i mean i think ultimately i know what i'm going to do but might as well try things

looking at that newbie game with notscience didn't help, he barely spoke about his partner before i subbed in but but him toward the bottom of his readslist (the slot i took got tracker guiltied so i told him to just bus me so everything after i was in the game is useless)