TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[Augustus Caesar]

can explain why AtE is townie

it's townie or NAI depending on what made the player mad
why did you not like the Deas wagon earlier?

[Augustus Caesar]

I apologise if my thought process wasn’t clear at the time and I can understand why it would seem a bit strange, but I also think it’s a very strange arc to take as scum. PUSHING relentlessly on RCE as soon as he replaces in and then suddenly stopping after a claim that is only going to buy him a night max.

this is a good point but i'll have to see how likely RCE was to be launched without your hand in it
if you are scum, i believe you unvoted because you assumed it'd be the consensus opinion to give RCE a day and it wouldn't look bad since all the town would take the same position (including peta for example who hard pushed him)

[Augustus Caesar]

hey Ydrasse are you around?
i think reck and datisi need us to interact more to form a better read on us
don't blame them

[Augustus Caesar]

that said

I've taken a closer look, Hectic, and some of your points imo don't hold water because of this

UNVOTE:

ok 0 reason to ever vote out that role

smells of buying time but is 100% provable so he gets a chance to prove it

have thoughts on where i want to go but need time to compose them

UNVOTE:

i think it would be weird and unnatural for dv to get into a full explanation of why to keep rce alive when peta is here doing exactly that. I see what you're saying is missing if you're looking at his iso, but with the context of the thread, I don't think the onus was on dv at the time to explain his unvote.

yeah, this is valid

[Augustus Caesar]

But the tricky part is that I REALLY thought RCE was scum. So am I going to try and stop him from being eliminated? No, because I was worried the whole time that I’d be stopping an elimination on scum and that’d be bad. (Before the claim I was almost as confident as I can get on RCE being scum)

alright, so i understand you're saying you really thought RCE was scum which is why you didn't want to argue against eliminating him regardless. but if you have a personal preference to give the claim a day, that means you think it's a more optimal route for town, right? and if so, why not give your input more into why you'd want to do that or talk to me about it at all? I find it odd that in your next post all you have to say on it is "I'm actually don't care if RCE gets elimmed" or something along those lines. why not talk more about what you think is better for your wincon?

[Augustus Caesar]

Reck, I'm gonna respond to the AtE thing and look at your Ari case later

[Augustus Caesar]

okay can you explain what AtE would look like in Ydrasse/Summer's case if they were scum being wagoned yesterday? vs if they were town? how come AtE and emotional play is townie or NAI, yet early on in this very game, you read me as scum for doing exactly that?

yeah, so, what I meant was that genuine emotion is always NAI or town in my experience, expect for rare circumstances where something would only make you mad if you were scum. feeling frustrated by a push on you is easier when you're town and know that other person's wrong, but also possible as scum if you feel it's unfair/unwarranted, or are just annoyed anyway. Ydrasse's emotion read as genuine, but it's possible scum!her was outraged that she was being countered by the doomed scumslot last minute, which would leave scum in a worse position overall. I think it's harder to be as outraged as that as scum over town though, these posts I especially liked:

like. does anyone here genuinely believe this claim is real? and if so why are you voting me, i want explanations other than like ~but what if he really is the n1 vig~

even if my wagon goes through i want people to justify their reasoning for me over rce right now

i feel like i'm gonna regret this. whoever is not yet voting, get onto a wagon.

VOTE: summer

if we do flip summer today, tomorrow i am not buying any story about a roleblocker or a rolestopper or a jailkeeper or whatever the fuck.

also it's 2:30am and i'm still not done and i just wanna sleep.

^ this is the worst vote on my wagon in case anyone was wondering idc how towny people thing datisi is

"oh this might be bad... might regret it uwu, not buying any stories about xyz" while already expressing doubts on rce

like if you already think like this just vote rce hello?

like what the fuck hello

make up your mind, is tstbs real or not this game reck?

my blood pressure is lowering now but i will remember this.

Like she's kinda lashing out lol

Your early AtE regarding my gimmick posting would be scummy if it was fake, which is what I was considering back then. I don't think it's fake anymore though, and I think it's something you'd get annoyed about as either alignment, so I think it's NAI. Maybe it's possible you restrain yourself if scum since you don't want to pick a fight, but I don't think it's your personality to be coy about that sort of thing or standing out, so NAI is what I landed on for that

[Augustus Caesar]

oh, and an example of genuine emotion actually being scum-indicative given the context was kuribo going crazy over the Elements trusttell incident from the previous Team Mafia (El was my teammate)

[Augustus Caesar]

@hectic what is your read on ydrasse

It's in flux honestly. There's times where I get worrying pings, like where I get this sense she's struggling to genuinely speak her thoughts about something, like when she was trying to articulate her read on you, and so writes "filler" for lack of a better word to fill the post, but then I like the way she reacted to being counterwagoned to RCE, and her being the counterwagon is slightly town-indicative even if peta is the one who started it, since it's possible scum would have a better push planned and not just let a scum!Summer be the counterwagon

Other than that, I guess it's just a vibe-townlean? I wish I had more concrete reasons one way or the other, but that's where I'm at

[Augustus Caesar]

@Ari: Has Dannflor been reading this game and does he have thoughts?

[Augustus Caesar]

if i had to vote btwn these two wagons right now id probably? go on deas again but looking between them is like... hmmmm

@augustus: i miss u. tell me what u think of deas's recent posting when youre here bc idk what to make of creature vs deas. lowkey i feel like describing deas as flail-y this game is like... idk about that one

It's fine and I kinda like it.

nvm idk

I'm gonna return when I have more patience to properly read through his replies and parse them

[Augustus Caesar]

hmmmmm reactions to my readslist/notespost make me nervous I'll be the nk target.

This is so contrasting to my current read on the gamestate that I'm wondering if this is scum-indicative. Can you expand on this?

[Augustus Caesar]

Reading should happen today.

Don't forget this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Augustus Caesar]

Sirius is probtown because he's having fun with his fluff and wasn't phased by peta's confident push. Scum!Sirius from my memory shuts downs as scum and is afraid to say anything at all

[Augustus Caesar]

you're a hypocrite

[Augustus Caesar]

I have a few thoughts from Jingle but that's mostly it.

Could you spew these while you're here for me now?

[Augustus Caesar]

stop hard lurking and play the game for god's sake , Ydrasse. we're here to play mafia so sort yourself out or I'm reporting you for playing against wincon and then Isis will modkill you

[Augustus Caesar]

UNVOTE: Deas

thinking...

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Ydrasse

would be typical of you to OMGUS

[Augustus Caesar]

guys I think this meltdown from Ydrasse is really scummy. feels like caught for the wrong reasons

[Augustus Caesar]

Also, I don't take kindly to threats of assault

[Augustus Caesar]

absolutely going mental on yuo, so many wounds, little swiss cheese man gets bullied for looking like a pincushion

aww is that a butter knife you're holding? how adorable

seriously though I don't think we should be stabbing either of Ari or Sirius today, I have good reasons to townread both. As for who I do want you to swisseroo, I will look onto tomorrow...

[Augustus Caesar]

you think there's a 50% chance Sirius flips scum, Ari? are you taking into account that any given slot has a 20% chance of flipping scum from a town perspective?

[Augustus Caesar]

its nt adorable when its in your BLOOD

why would I inject that into my blood? get your strange nonsense outta here

[Augustus Caesar]

hmmmmm reactions to my readslist/notespost make me nervous I'll be the nk target.

This is so contrasting to my current read on the gamestate that I'm wondering if this is scum-indicative. Can you expand on this?

contrasting how?

pedit dv can answer as well

You're in my PoE and I don't think many are townreading you, so I'd be surprised if you were the nightkill

[Augustus Caesar]

Do you think it's fake or scum-indicative, Ari?

[Augustus Caesar]

ari i do not know which of us here is missing the joke, but one of us certainly is

<3

goddamnit, prime read material missed there

[Augustus Caesar]

it's okay, game throwing is quirky nowadays

[Augustus Caesar]

wait, what? you thought it was fake and scum-indicative but it also looked very serious to you and you were worried?

it was all in jest btw

[Augustus Caesar]

Alright, I believe it

She was definitely kidding around, I assure you, dw

[Augustus Caesar]

Ydrasse, can you see yourself back in real quick and tell me how many parsecs of pressure you'd feel with my vote on you overnight?

[Augustus Caesar]

who'd you like me to vote that isn't Ari or Sirius?

[Augustus Caesar]

i mean if you can handle knowing that i know now you hate me and want me to die and be dead i GUESS its fine ://

I'm glad it's fine!
I'd be worried if you hadn't clarified at the end there

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Creature

[Augustus Caesar]

I have a few thoughts from Jingle but that's mostly it.

Could you spew these while you're here for me now?

This is much more useful if you say these now rather than later, Ari

[Augustus Caesar]

Alright

[Augustus Caesar]

I read back on Deas/RCE interactions and I found this weird:

My slot hasn't posted prior to my rep in so I'm assuming you mean unreadable, but treating as scum.

My slot hasn't posted prior to my rep in so I'm assuming you mean unreadable, but treating as scum.

No I think you’re scum

Oh, well damn I can't beat that logic.

RCE replied too jokingly for my liking, whereas I think he would feel the need to act more annoyed or react harsher if talking to town.

BUT, then i saw this:

I'll gauge the room, I'm 5-ish pages into my catch-up. Do any of you terribly mind catching up by response to significant (imo) posts or just most of my thoughts summarized in a block?

Probably, through 7 pages my shortlist poe is datisi/Deasveil/Reck

Actually looking through the last VC that doesn't hold up. I don't know the game state page 20+ but it's probable there are at most 2 scum on my slots wagon. That's mostly by virtue of not yet being hammered.

Yeah I'll do summary over stream of consciousness, I'll have to give it some thought.

[Town]-- Aristophanes - Adorable, xRECKONERx, xofelf -- Datisi, Augustus Caesar -- The Bulge - Summer Nights, petapan - [Sirius9121] --- Creature --- RCEnigma --[Scum]

Reads update.

RCE I'm really sorry but you're looking very scum right now.

Deas states RCE is looking a lot like scum straight after RCE posts for the first time. No one else has reacted to RCE's initial posting and Deas is the first to do so. Scum!him has no way of knowing how people will react to it, unless he didn't have any part in helping RCE in the PT, and just let him post a fairly weak catchup. I think scum!Deas doesn't just put forth this RCE-catchup-bad narrative right from the getgo, but would at least allow others to react to it first. Like, this was RCE's first posts, it's close to a clean slate on a lurker-slot rep-in, Deas doesn't need to do this to his partner as scum.

[Augustus Caesar]

Next I'm gonna check my Sirius meta to see if it actually fits what I remember of scum!him in my mind

Woah, so it turns out Sirius mods a lot of games

His first mafia game:
viewtopic.php?t=83818&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=34429&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

he's visibly having less fun and there's some forced-looking scumhunting there

this was a while ago though, so for this to be useful, we should look at a towngame during this same period:
viewtopic.php?t=84069&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=34429&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go

cool, so here, he's more natural and lolposting, he's kinda all over the place and just having fun. there's no forced-looking scum hunting

I think a big difference from these two games is that scum!Sirius feels the need to fake scumhunt, while town!Sirius doesn't care

in comparision, his ISO this game fits the latter mould. he answers questions when asked and has stated we should just do that:

Also, Sirius, something AI would be really nice from you.
Thx.

hi I'll post later after 30mins feel free to ask me questions

but isn't putting out fake-looking stuff

assuming scum has setup info, scumteam easily find a perfect scumclaim.
we should give rce a kill target and if the target isn't dead kill him anyway on d2

go unvote fools

lol I just saw this
isn't this really town-indicative? I don't think Sirius is the type of player to make a post like this about a partner

[Augustus Caesar]

Maybe it's not a good game for it, but at the same time, it's not a good game for town to do filler fluff. Like it's a net-negative no matter which way you slice it. I also talked with Ceph for a while about Ydrasse to try to figure out why he thought she was scum, and a lot of the posts I brought up came from that discussion. In the post of mine you're quoting, I said I was flip-flopping. Cuz there is a lot that has made me think she's not town. And there's some stuff that could be town because it does remind me of myself a little, just the whole of it all just sits bad with me. So much of her content is nothing, and she has a lot of posts. I'd expect more effort to actually do something of some kind from town. Like yeah I know I'm not great, but I'm trying and I give what I feel about what's going on and try to give posts to actually justify this.

This depends on the player and you shouldn't treat this as a blanket scum-indicative trait. Ydrasse has towngames where she does nothing but fluffs for 90% of them. Fluffing/shitposting is not a useful way to read her imo

Like, that’s the whole point of most of her posts. How many of her posts are about finding scum/town and how many are to look a certain way?

Which of her posts give you that impression?

[Augustus Caesar]

@hectic, after scrolling through your iso for 0.7 seconds, i think i saw you not wanting to vote ari? can you refresh / link me as to why?

505

last game I played with Ari he was town and got launched because he kept lurking and feeling demotivated (bonneytunz) - this feels very similar to that. The initial solving he was putting out and his tone also feel out of the scumrange I linked in that post

[Augustus Caesar]

Hectic what do you think of this post 1559

I only gave a list of players I town read on day 1. I asked him what readlists is he talking about and he ignored me.

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense and I don't know what Sirius is getting at.

@Sirius: Can you show where you think Puff is talking about players she's planning to push later?

[Augustus Caesar]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Augustus Caesar]

just townspew lol

I'm just ISOing people... trying to find a semblance of a slot I feel even slightly good about flipping scum

ISOed Reck and not feeling it
ISOed Creature and not feeling
ISOing Bulge right now...

[Augustus Caesar]

this is agonising
all I want is to have a scumread Datisi
please... just one scumread
a crumb of scumread

[Augustus Caesar]

have fun

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: The Bulge

my case is 650 655 661

the reaction to peta's prodding feels over the top and like The Bulge is trying to appear strong/looking for a fight

the case on Datisi also feels over the top for the reasons given - "incredibly scummy to me"

My one read that resembles a scumread is a toneread. these are dark days

[Augustus Caesar]

Bulge, the reason I asked you the question I did is because it kind of feels like you're holding yourself back from townreading me, with all these qualifiers of "DV is a very skilled player" etc. that stop something that would otherwise be town about me from being a reason to townread me. What is your basis for being particularly concerned about my ability as scum, compared to other people?

disagree. there have been more posts from you that pinged me in some way than from any of my townreads. there are 3 main reasons why you are not a scumread. the way you pressured RCE is one of them, and would be the most impressive part of your play if you do flip red. but a doomed slot is a doomed slot, and I think we both come from an era of mafia where there are no holds barred when it comes to bussing a partner replacing in like that (daytalk made all the scum on this site soft!). I also really liked the way you tried to squeeze content out of creature, but with him in my top scumreads I have to consider the possibility of his buddies coming in to bail him out of a content hole. finally, painting yourself into a corner saying you will likely end up townreading me upon review was a good look for you, but these are only words. So yea, there are things holding me back, but I don't know where you get the impression that I should have you higher on my list?

= I don't like these takes actually. the Deas/Creature partners scenario is so unlikely that it feels more like a filler thought process, rather than something that should be more than very negligible in Bulge's head

= bussing is one thing, but it's about the manner in which you bus and reasons given

= is it? why can't he just review you and then say he changed his mind or came to a different conclusion? town could easily think they'll do one thing after review but land on another. feels like another fabricated read. POSSIBLY

[Augustus Caesar]

Regarding Ydrasse:

read her town ISO here
and then compare that ISO to any of her scumgames

the reason I don't hold as much water in this reason is that it's actually the reason I used to townlock her in that very linked game, which means she's very aware of it.

But even still, excessive shitposting/flavour is town-indicatve OR NAI for Ydrasse, but not scum-indicative

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

Hmmmm
You think the dueling wagons y/day were SvS?

I noted this as trying to cast doubt on that possibility, but looking again it's actually clearly the opposite, and reck is trying to open this dialogue after briefly hopping onto the Summer counterwagon yesterday, and has been lazily floating it as an alternative to ari all day now.

i have no idea what you are trying to say about me here

at first i thought you were ridiculing the idea, but I realized you were in fact entertaining it

How does Reck's post there appear like he's ridiculing it rather than opening up discussion about it? I don't understand how you came to the first conclusion before you realised

[Augustus Caesar]

WHY is it tanking??? WHY does it feel like every single game relevant thought you put into this thread was pulled out of your ass 3 seconds earlier without any cohesion whatsoever????

fucking lol. so i'm scum because i'm voting you? except i was town earlier when i was expressing suspicion on you? ok ydrasse.

Datisi, would you make these posts as scum if you knew Ydrasse was town? And how bad would you feel about making them?

[Augustus Caesar]

Okay, good to know

[Augustus Caesar]

WHY is it tanking??? WHY does it feel like every single game relevant thought you put into this thread was pulled out of your ass 3 seconds earlier without any cohesion whatsoever????

because this is the second vote you’ve made on me now and the first one fucking sucked and here you are again back on board datisi that’s why

i’m literally playing on my fucking 15 min break and don’t exactly have time to go back and hard reread and i’ve been trying my best to get back into a game to be helpful

This post is incredibly towny. Reason being is that the anger behind this post is solely due to Datisi incorrectly scumreading Ydrasse. Ydrasse does not get mad about this if Datisi simply has a correct scumread. She does get mad about this if she's frustrated at Datisi continuing to incorrectly read her (or be scum pushing her).

Scum can be frustrated if they think the push is unfair or based on bad reasons. but Ydrasse isn't even talking about any reasons, she's just frustrated about the push itself because she knows it's wrong

Basically, the self-righteousness is really towny

and I don't think Ydrasse has ever faked this kind of thing as scum

[Augustus Caesar]

any investors for a Bulge wagon?

[Augustus Caesar]

I don't think she blows up the same way if she's just being correctly pushed as scum

Do you?

[Augustus Caesar]

It's a pretty common tell. Scum don't feel genuine rage when being pushed, and usually have to fake it, while town do all the time. It's the feeling of being "right" and knowing the accuser is wrong

Ydrasse hasn't faked it in any of her scumgames previously

[Augustus Caesar]

I mean, it obviously depends on the player a lot. Norwee is someone who this tell works on 100% of the time.

kuribo is a person this tell does not work on at all

Ydrasse is someone who has never reacted in this manner as scum. She'll act sad, but never ragey

[Augustus Caesar]

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to solve the game, not to wolf it.
The evil mafia do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let a normal roguelike be a clean sweep.
Isis told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it is so, it is a grievous fault,
And grievously has Caesar answer’d it.
But all hope is not yet lost, a light shines;
Augustus, he opens up monstertrain,
His heart is in the coffin there with petapan,
And he must pause till it come back to him.

[Augustus Caesar]

I mean, it obviously depends on the player a lot. Norwee is someone who this tell works on 100% of the time.

kuribo is a person this tell does not work on at all

Ydrasse is someone who has never reacted in this manner as scum. She'll act sad, but never ragey

So the QUESTION is whether Ydrasse is faking her anger in the last page of posting, and it doesn't look fake to me.

Does it to you?

[Augustus Caesar]

It's a pretty common tell. Scum don't feel genuine rage when being pushed, and usually have to fake it, while town do all the time. It's the feeling of being "right" and knowing the accuser is wrong

Ydrasse hasn't faked it in any of her scumgames previously

do you in general agree/disagree with this point?

[Augustus Caesar]

I think the context is different to day 1 where her anger was a result of her being the counterwagon to an essentially doomed scumslot with a scummy claim. Whereas here, it's just a reaction to being pushed.

This is how she reacted to being pushed for weeks in her last scumgame:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84898&user_select%5B%5D=34307&start=400

You can just read almost any post on page 3 of 4 of her ISO

this is a SUSTAINED push and there is no rage in there, only some sad AtE

I know it's hard to townread her for her solving, but I've found a really good reason to actually think she's town, so that shouldn't be ignored because of trying to view her as a "whole"

[Augustus Caesar]

Should vote Bulge with me, Creature

[Augustus Caesar]

fuck this game

VOTE: bulge

^^

[Augustus Caesar]

They have 2 votes on them now

[Augustus Caesar]

Using anger to her advantage as scum would be a first for Ydrasse is the thing, and I'm aware Team Mafia calls for changing up your meta, but the anger here feels and reads genuine to me. I haven't read any part of it and thought "is she actually mad here or faking this?" - it just all feels real

and if the emotion is genuine, it's very towny for the reasons given

[Augustus Caesar]

*reasons I gave earlier

[Augustus Caesar]

that's L-1

Hum de dum

[Augustus Caesar]

Hi, Bulge. I can't respond or get to your replies right niw at work, but the summary is that they don't really sway me one way or another

Could you claim now please so we have time to move if required?

[Augustus Caesar]

pulling a page from reck's book here

I don't blanket-hate on meta to the extent he does, but meta townreads like this are indeed trash. I've said before, the more you talk about someone's meta, the less reliable a meta read becomes. the more meta-driven players there are in any given playerlist, the less reliable meta becomes. ESPECIALLY for townreads. especially for a slot that has been blatantly buddying you all game. are you not at all concerned you're being pocketed?

This anger-tell isn't something I've used to townread Ydrasse before this game. I agree that meta-tells become less useful after the first time you use them/bring them up.

My townread on her isn't due to any buddying, dw. I was unsure about her before yesterday.

Though, I don't understand why you're arguing this point so vehemently while having her as your 5th highest townread in your readlist

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas states RCE is looking a lot like scum straight after RCE posts for the first time. No one else has reacted to RCE's initial posting and Deas is the first to do so. Scum!him has no way of knowing how people will react to it, unless he didn't have any part in helping RCE in the PT, and just let him post a fairly weak catchup. I think scum!Deas doesn't just put forth this RCE-catchup-bad narrative right from the getgo, but would at least allow others to react to it first. Like, this was RCE's first posts, it's close to a clean slate on a lurker-slot rep-in, Deas doesn't need to do this to his partner as scum.

did you consider the angle of the cutthroat scumpartner ridding himself of a liability? my first impression was that scum would never treat a partner slot like that, especially with such force and aggressive timing. but that got me worrying it was for cred. this hypothetical reminds me of a marathon I played where everyone was separated into neighbourhoods who had 50/50 control over a vigshot. petapan was my hoodpartner and when n1 started, he immediately suggested we shoot pooky. I agreed, and he flipped scum. peta and I townread each other so outwardly that nobody could touch us. I was calling him conftown from hood interactions, who could disprove me? I believed it until literally his last post when he pulled a fake "not hammering in lylo so not scum" bit before engaming me. turns out his partner pooky had no idea what was coming. now I know that's a marathon, and this is team mafia, but the situations are more similar than they seem. would peta have shot his partner that early with no warning if it were a serious game of mafia, not to mention team mafia? probably not, because that would objectively be a dick move and a waste of your partner's time. but how much time did RCE sink into this game? would dv feel any remorse for cutting the cord the second he smells an inevitable sinking ship? the beeboy slot had already been a big pain in the ass for the scumteam all game. especially if dv was feeling at all paranoid about the replacement, I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility for that to have been a slightly trigger-happy but extremely high-reward bus.

Ftr, I agree with what you're saying here, but idk if it's town-indicative for your alignment in this game, since it seems you believe this on a theory level regardless of your alignment, and it's based on your beliefs outside of this game

I was in that game btw lol

[Augustus Caesar]

I should mention that Hopkirk thinks that post (1721) feels weird though

[Augustus Caesar]

1722 - fair, the context makes your reaction look less unreasonable

1723 - Hopkirk thinks this combined with 1721(?) reads as scum being annoyed they weren't around to get towncred for it, like a "you'd be townreading me for it if I was around and did what I wanted" kind of thing. Personally, I don't know.

[Augustus Caesar]

I cannot begin to describe to you how much I despise reads like your yellow one. "something that should be ____ in _____'s head..." is awful and very frustrating to be on the receiving end of.

this I don't like

You've ignored the point I'm making there to talk about the way I've worded it. The important thing is that you have a good reason to townread Deas; you say you "really liked" the way he pressured Creature, but then used a hang up which is dependent on both remaining scum being exactly Deas and Creature to negate it - this is extremely unlikely and not something that should prevent you from using a good reason to townread someone. That's why it feels fake to me

[Augustus Caesar]

ridiculing is perhaps too strong a word, but my first impression was like "huh you really think the dueling wagons yesterday were SvS? seriously?", which obviously is not what it says, but was how I interpreted it in passing. yea ridicule kinda implies that he was shutting it down entirely which was never my impression

fair, semantics thing, not AI probably

[Augustus Caesar]

hop the fuck off of this trash push

Hopkirk is very offended by this hate speech

UNVOTE: The Bulge

hop also wants to clarify he hasn't read up and intends to this weekend

[Augustus Caesar]

oh, interesting

[Augustus Caesar]

I uh, believe the claim. I'm kind of a sucker for early crumbs like that

[Augustus Caesar]

Any other docs should CC this I think, don't think there'd be two in a 13p setup

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas, can you explain why you think Creature is probably town? I couldn't find the reasoning for why in your ISO

[Augustus Caesar]

Ari does seems weirdly tunnelled in those posts, like he's finding a few too many reasons to call you scum there than is natural. Like, he found 20 reasons to call you scum and 1 reason to call you town from an ISO-dive. Ari, what was your mindset when you started that ISO-dive on Bulge? What was your aim?

[Augustus Caesar]

He's got a lot of posts that are townleany and a lot that are scumleany but overall I'm pretty fine with this wagon trajectory despite the votes being, uh, well like 80% naked lol.

wait, really? did you not point out the townleany ones?

[Augustus Caesar]

hmmmmm reactions to my readslist/notespost make me nervous I'll be the nk target.

Why did you make this post, Bulge? You weren't afraid it would make you look like a PR?

[Augustus Caesar]

HANG ON A SECOND

I see a severe lack of triangles this game, Datisi "!E:R"QFe

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

I now collect your hearts and dispense gold, superior hearts, or spiders

[Augustus Caesar]

Datisi hard lurking when called out on the lack of triangles I see

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Ari L-2

grumble grumble

Would appreciate if people actually came on and answered questions

[Augustus Caesar]

I might have been confbiased when I wrote my case but honestly as scum I'd have probably just LOLhammered there.

...why?

You don't think you would've been immediately flipped the next day? Also, you only had 2 votes at the time.

[Augustus Caesar]

do you mean he started at the conclusion that the Bulge was scum and then tried to find reasons to fit that view? that's the vibe it gives me as well

also, you're not picking up your phone

[Augustus Caesar]

Ari, can you link me your finest and proudest two scumgames

[Augustus Caesar]

Ari, do you ever fake anger or frustration as scum? Just explain your scumrange for me and whether you're out of it in this game

[Augustus Caesar]

the council is thinking

[Augustus Caesar]

UNVOTE: Ari

honestly, I believe you

it's what I've seen as well comparing any of your scumgames to this game. Your solving is out of its range


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Creature

because I can't read him

[Augustus Caesar]

what's the case, Creature

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

Hectic what do you think of this post 1559

I only gave a list of players I town read on day 1. I asked him what readlists is he talking about and he ignored me.

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense and I don't know what Sirius is getting at.

@Sirius: Can you show where you think Puff is talking about players she's planning to push later?

@Sirius

[Augustus Caesar]

All of this said I really need to improve my scumgame haha

Thanks, I feel like I can at least breathe again here.

I think the most reasonable pivot is onto Sirius here but also it sucks to have such a null slot be the best Lim after this helluva day for the game.
Do you have a better idea of where scum might be?

I've been recently told Reck is probably town so that takes the air out of all my interesting leads this game so far.

Ninja'd a lot lol I'll read up.
This was written in response to the Unvote post.

1641 for why I think Sirius is likely town

Uh, I'm gonna try and put everyone into a readslist. I've been dreading it this game but I should probably try


ACTUALLY, it's dumb to do it right before a night phase. never mind

I'm considering Creature/Deas/Reck right now

[Augustus Caesar]

fr i was getting a feeling there's scum within deas/ydra and at this point deas is the only flip i want that isn't (1) policy (2) that nobody would agree to flip (3) that didn't have my mind violently changed on recently so can we pls vote there k thx.

Why those two particularly?

[Augustus Caesar]

eh, sorry

aware the push wasn't strong but there was literally nowhere else I could find to go and don't want to just launch someone random

[Augustus Caesar]

what'd you think of the meta-ari argument? oh right, you're not a big fan of meta either, are you?

well, Ari has solved like 3x more in this game than his next best scumgame. and the frustration and slight hints of anger in his posts are also something I didn't find in his scumgames

[Augustus Caesar]

aware the push wasn't strong but there was literally nowhere else I could find to go and don't want to just launch someone random

(and this is how I feel right now)

like I'm considering Creature who's basically a nullread, and Deas who I was townleaning earlier

it's frustrating

[Augustus Caesar]

This question is for both Bulge and Hectic since Bulge has Creature low on the their readlist and Hectic is voting Creature.

After RCEnigma claimed, the votes got switched to Ydrasse and I saw Creature did not believe RCEnigma's claim and he voted RCEnigma and RCEnigma was the counter wagon to Ydrasse. Does scum actually vote their scum buddy after the fake claim while other players vote another wagon? I wasn't expecting scum to do that and that's what made me lean town on Creature.

Scum does do that if they think the Ydrasse wagon would go through without their help and want some towncred for being on RCE. And I don't think both scum want to obviously counterwagon RCE either, so it's possible the plan was 1 scum on, and 1 off

Mostly though I'm not putting a lot of stock into it since RCE was doomed the next day anyway, so it's not a high risk bus

[Augustus Caesar]

I GUESS solving/launching via PoE isn't actually all bad, it just feels weird to me because I usually pursue scumreads

[Augustus Caesar]

But at the moment, Creature is null, and Deas/Reck are townleans(?)

I have more substantial townreads on everyone else

[Augustus Caesar]

Idk if it's because I believe the claim which has given me a different perspective when reading The Bulge's posts, but they seem a lot more towny since then

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Datisi

I know this is probably unpopular but it’s where my head is at. I would want either Ydrasse or Datisi elim’d today.

I will make a comprehensive post explaining my thoughts soon.

The Bulge claimed a psychologist inno on Datisi which makes him significantly more likely to be town. yes, it depends on who scum would pick etc etc but it still makes him more likely town statistically speaking. you taking that into consideration?

I also had an earlier question about your read on Creature when you have the time

[Augustus Caesar]

Hectic what do you think of this post 1559

I only gave a list of players I town read on day 1. I asked him what readlists is he talking about and he ignored me.

Yeah, that doesn't really make sense and I don't know what Sirius is getting at.

@Sirius: Can you show where you think Puff is talking about players she's planning to push later?

@Sirius

Why aren't you answering this, Sirius?

[Augustus Caesar]

Ugh, ISOed Sirius again and really don't think he's scum even if he's a useless slot. Would vastly prefer Deas over Sirius.

[Augustus Caesar]

Creature, have you really not rolled scum in almost 2 years?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh yeah, you play on mafiauniverse. Link me your last couple of scumgames on there please

[Augustus Caesar]

Huh, I can't find the game

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Deas

[Augustus Caesar]

tldr:
-I think Deas's 1849 is decent, and makes Creature more likely to be town no matter what Deas's alignment is
-I agree with Bulge's 1721 and it negates my main reason to reconsider my earlier push on him

[Augustus Caesar]

Ugh, I don’t know where the vote count is at but I’m town and this has actually been one of the most enjoyable games for me where I’ve felt more engaged than I have been in a game for quite a while so as much as it’s an AtE-like thing to say I would be disappointed if I were eliminated here!

I also think the thoughts on my approach to the RCE-slot don’t make much sense because why would I push him so hard as soon as he replaced in and then unvote after a silly claim? (Maybe so that I could say that, whatever)

Spoiler: Final reads with detailed explanations

lol was not expecting that

[Augustus Caesar]

Ydrasse is still very, very town

Ftr I have a 100% record on reading her in mafia games. Launched her when she was scum in Launch Mafia and Forest Fire, and correctly townread her in all of her towngames. I've been wrong on her exactly ONCE, and that was a marathon game so doesn't count. You should sheep me in my read of her

[Augustus Caesar]

eh, sorry

aware the push wasn't strong but there was literally nowhere else I could find to go and don't want to just launch someone random

literally nowhere else? what happened to your creature vote in the first place? when did you flip on deas?

Creature I can't read
Deas was scumreading, but then his responses were alright + his pressure on RCE I saw unlikely coming from a partner
you pointed out how it's not unlikely and I agree

[Augustus Caesar]

Quick check at Ari's scumgames, these indicate fairly strongly that Ari is town here.

Yeeeee

[Augustus Caesar]

Hail mary

VOTE: Ydrasse

Creature, remember when you were a mason in PookyVFlavor? Remember how you were scumreading both Ydrasse and I? Remember how we were both town correctly townreading each other?

This is that. Trust my read here.

[Augustus Caesar]

WHY is it tanking??? WHY does it feel like every single game relevant thought you put into this thread was pulled out of your ass 3 seconds earlier without any cohesion whatsoever????

because this is the second vote you’ve made on me now and the first one fucking sucked and here you are again back on board datisi that’s why

i’m literally playing on my fucking 15 min break and don’t exactly have time to go back and hard reread and i’ve been trying my best to get back into a game to be helpful

This post is incredibly towny. Reason being is that the anger behind this post is solely due to Datisi incorrectly scumreading Ydrasse. Ydrasse does not get mad about this if Datisi simply has a correct scumread. She does get mad about this if she's frustrated at Datisi continuing to incorrectly read her (or be scum pushing her).

Scum can be frustrated if they think the push is unfair or based on bad reasons. but Ydrasse isn't even talking about any reasons, she's just frustrated about the push itself because she knows it's wrong

Basically, the self-righteousness is really towny

and I don't think Ydrasse has ever faked this kind of thing as scum

It's a pretty common tell. Scum don't feel genuine rage when being pushed, and usually have to fake it, while town do all the time. It's the feeling of being "right" and knowing the accuser is wrong

Ydrasse hasn't faked it in any of her scumgames previously

I think the context is different to day 1 where her anger was a result of her being the counterwagon to an essentially doomed scumslot with a scummy claim. Whereas here, it's just a reaction to being pushed.

This is how she reacted to being pushed for weeks in her last scumgame:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84898&user_select%5B%5D=34307&start=400

You can just read almost any post on page 3 of 4 of her ISO

this is a SUSTAINED push and there is no rage in there, only some sad AtE

I know it's hard to townread her for her solving, but I've found a really good reason to actually think she's town, so that shouldn't be ignored because of trying to view her as a "whole"

[Augustus Caesar]

I really, really believe in my reasoning, enough to make Ydrasse probably my number 1 or 2 townread at this point. I would rather go 9 other players than her

[Augustus Caesar]

I think 7 in actuality, but you get the point

[Augustus Caesar]

i thought you thought deas is scum?

Now I'm not sure

why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

What changed your mind on Deas?

Deas feels the least town to me of everyone. You don't count because I always think you're scum and you've been town every time

[Augustus Caesar]

Ugh, I don’t know where the vote count is at but I’m town and this has actually been one of the most enjoyable games for me where I’ve felt more engaged than I have been in a game for quite a while so as much as it’s an AtE-like thing to say I would be disappointed if I were eliminated here!

I also think the thoughts on my approach to the RCE-slot don’t make much sense because why would I push him so hard as soon as he replaced in and then unvote after a silly claim? (Maybe so that I could say that, whatever)

Spoiler: Final reads with detailed explanations

What do you think about this post?

Doesn't do much for me other than think Deas is a nice guy

The RCE thing is actually something my initial scumread on him was based on, so don't agree there

[Augustus Caesar]

someone here is hard townreading scum and it's fucking with everything

Yeah, for sure

It's not me though :>

[Augustus Caesar]

Sheeeeeeeeeeep the Morning Ydrasse read Datisi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas/Reck/Creature

[Augustus Caesar]

I'm definitely gonna be asleep during deadline

I have utmost faith in the skill level of this lobby to not allow the day end in a no launch though. When you get to this high level of play, it turns into chat mafia

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

¶

Votecount DEAS

[5] DeasVail: Hectic, Datisi, The Bulge, Creature, Ydrasse
[2] Ydrasse: xofelf, DeasVail
[1] Aristophanes: xRECKONERx
[1] Sirius9121: Aristophanes

[2] Not Voting: Sirius9121, Adorable

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to annihilate.

[Augustus Caesar]

How you doing, Ari?

[Augustus Caesar]

and xofelf too! it's been 3 days since your last post, we miss you

[Augustus Caesar]

I know, and I'm sorry. I've had a lot of RL shit going on. I think the DV wagon is a mistake, I could get behind Ari I guess, but he's not in my top should die list. I know you're confident in your Ydrasse read, but I'm really not, and the more you harp on about how you're 100% right except for that one time, the more I feel even worse about your read. Cuz god, it just feels like she knows how to AtE you just right to save herself and I'm not buying it to be legitimately, I'm just not. Bulge's claim is a good one and I buy it. Datisi and Reck are my top town reads. Sirius is just a slot that isn't doing much, but like could actually just be town. Creature idk where to slot, but i dont' feel bad about it. I think I've explained feeling how i feel about Adorable.

So essentially, I am only down to vote Ari, Ydrasse, or Adorable. That's it. As it is, those are all slots that i feel like knowing their alignment will confirm a lot of things and make the game more solveable.

I was wrong in a marathon game which lasted 30min, I'm correct on all forum games - the sample size being 7(?) I think. 2 in which she was scum, 5 in which she was town. I'm not gonna repeat the reasons but the AtE wasn't designed to target me, it was genuine emotion

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas's reaction towards these late stages gives me hope though. There's not much of an attempt to townspew or reason as I feel there should be for TEAM MAFIA. Like, he's got nothing to lose, why not just go all out

[Augustus Caesar]

Like sure you may actually mean all of this, and this may all be true, but I don't know that for sure and there's nothing that says you can't just be lying about it. So like *heavy shrugs*.

I'm not the type of player to exaggerate reads as town. If I say I'm really confident about a read, it's because I'm really confident about it. Datisi has a first-hand example where I had a strong townread on another player who I have a very good readrate on from another game, and town didn't sheep my read after my death and lost as a result. Aware this is also anecdotal, but I'm not tunnelled or confbiased or whatever you want to call it in this.

[Augustus Caesar]

yes yes yes

[Augustus Caesar]

Go ALL OUT, Deas

spew the unfiltered thoughts

[Augustus Caesar]

Basically, idk if it's not the type of player you are, but there wasn't a lot of frustration or you getting annoyed at people pushing you, and not much of an attempt to AtE, even while you're the only wagon at the closing stages. I find that scummy in a vacuum

[Augustus Caesar]

Sigh, idk

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas is town. What can we do now with a tight time?

Why? Because he claimed VT?

[Augustus Caesar]

Yeah, it's what my gut is telling me as well....

DEAS

I know I'm probably gonna be regarded as a meta-freak at this point, but lay it on me...


the self-meta and if you're out of your scum range

[Augustus Caesar]

you know, I should probably be townreading Deas's absolute refusal to vote Ari when he's by far his best shot at a counterwagon. Insisting on Ydrasse after I'm relentlessly hard defending her decreases his odds for survival...

[Augustus Caesar]

I need to sleep.......

VOTE: Adorable

Someone hold me, tell me it's all gonna be okay

[Augustus Caesar]

(didn't change my vote because of that self-meta, that did nothing for me)

[Augustus Caesar]

oh, that you'd try and have it do something for me as scum?

[Augustus Caesar]

heaven fucking help me why are you voting adorable hectic

VOTE: adorable

I don't know LOL

my gut's just screaming Deas is town and Puff has been posting less and less recently and then the timing of that return.......

btw I will hate you if you're just using me as a way to systematically get as many claims out today as possible

[Augustus Caesar]

I know I’m going to sound like I’m off my rocker but the main thing I’d like people to keep in mind if I die is I think Datisi is massively over-townread here and I hate that there’s a psychologist inno on him because I think he’s a serious contender for scum.

Also if I’m going to be eliminated here I would hate it to be for nothing and as dead town I would ask for my reads to please be at least be taken into account

I don’t know, I don’t have much to say. As scum id be going all out but it’s the middle of the day and I have other things I’m doing and I feel like I need to do something to stop myself from dying here but I don’t know what that is and the main thing I’m worried about honestly is being wrong about my townread on ari and looking like an idiot but I seriously think he’s town and am also worried that people will elim him and we’ll lose the great start we had I guess

these are SCREAMING at me

it's so loud, my ears are starting to bleed

[Augustus Caesar]

Puff, can you list out those players you're townreading and scumreading?

[Augustus Caesar]

i'm tryna get a yeet in dude, you're changing votes yourself

restraining myself to Deas or Puff before I go to sleep now

which I should be doing but

[Augustus Caesar]

oh no

[Augustus Caesar]

lol maybe I should set an alarm for 3 hours from now like Datisi

maybe this game is worth it... I am enjoying it more now

UNVOTE: Adorable

sure, let's do that. I'll be back later

[Augustus Caesar]

VOTE: Adorable in case I sleep through my alarm

[Augustus Caesar]

you know what

YOU KNOW WHAT

VOTE: Sirius

the meta that points to him being town is from too long ago to put massive stock into, and he's never gonna make any content to reasonably convince anyone he's town. him having fun is the only reason to townread him, and that read will basically never change because he provides close to no content. ergo, he shouldn't be allowed near lylo because we'll have far more tangible reasons to townread others, while we'll always be kinda unsure about him

also, I wanted to hold off on saying this but in case I don't come back: Akarin giving Puff a whole spiel of thoughts because Puff struggling but Puff not sharing that is really towny. if Puff can post this and it's relatively long and not in toooo long from now, it proves Akarin was actually helping Puff with the game in chat, and Puff wasn't using that as team reads to provide to the thread, meaning they existed beforehand and Puff only thought to show them because she wants her teammate's reads to be valued before she gets mislaunched. unless they've been planning this as a SECRET WEAPON in the event Puff is on the ropes, but that's kinda big brain if it's the case. does this make sense? i'm in a very tired state.

so Puff, the sooner you can post these, the better it looks for you, since it proves you and Akarin aren't just making them up now on the spot, but that they existed beforehand

also I read back on earlier reasons I had to townread Puff and I realised I should stop being so impulsive and actually remember the reasons I had to strongly townread players I wa sstrongly townreading

[Augustus Caesar]

hi......

[Augustus Caesar]

ah well, I think this is flipping town for that graph lol
but yeah, this is the flip today. sorry, Sirius

[Augustus Caesar]

when'd you make that graph and why?

[Augustus Caesar]

I think Puff is town as well and feel more confident in that

[Augustus Caesar]

Hectic I swear to god if I see you change your vote here...

lol
if you're scared you should hammer

[Augustus Caesar]

what do those numbers even mean

[Augustus Caesar]

uh, it's a little too late for that Sirius. it would've been helpful if you'd posted stuff like that graph and the other ways you were trying to solve this game when it wasn't 3 hours or whatever till deadline

[Augustus Caesar]

lol I don't think you've been reading the game if you think I'd vote Ydrasse

[Augustus Caesar]

I do feel bad if you're town but I don't think you should let this discourage you. you'll get better with more games and you should keep at it! you're fun to play with at the very least and that's a top tier trait in my book

[Augustus Caesar]

I'm good with a hammer whenever, Ari

o7 Sirius

[Augustus Caesar]

why not creature

[Augustus Caesar]

I'd like to imagine there's a huge audience spectating this game. or that someone from 3 years down the line is reading over old team mafia games for fun or research, and decide to open up the LEGENDARY a normal roguelike. I don't know what Mage this game legendary for it to be worth reading, mysterious viewer, but I'm excited to find out

[Augustus Caesar]

nah I'd probably be scum with Isis I reckon. she has a habit of deepwolfing so hard that she becomes the mod

[Augustus Caesar]

My reads...
Oh fun...

first things first, who'd you target, Bulge?

second things second,
VOTE: Creature

[Augustus Caesar]

lol

[Augustus Caesar]

I'm touched...

[Augustus Caesar]

This kinda posting is my kryptonite, I already townread you lol

Don't want to touch Ydrasse, Adorable, The Bulge, xofelf today

I'd put Ari in there normally but tbh I've been lazy and probably relying too much on meta and should have a closer look again

That's all for now and I'll be back with STUFF later

[Augustus Caesar]

Always rated you, Datisi

[Augustus Caesar]

You're still a townread, Ari, just not a "please don't vote this person because I'm confident they're town"-read like the other 4. I plan to look you over again more closely

If The Bulge prepared that whole dialogue in the night, hats off to them. it's over the top but reads as genuine to me

[Augustus Caesar]

Bit rude you only compliment Reck's avatar there tbh. what about the rest of us striving to feel good about our avatars?

[Augustus Caesar]

why Creature

(back later for this and other stuff)

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, one thing: Why'd you think Datisi was town yesterday Creature?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, one thing: Why'd you think Datisi was town yesterday Creature?

Creature pls

Wow, that's embarrassing

I'll take the modkill

[Augustus Caesar]

No? Why would that help? Oh, I guess making a save doesn't actually help if it's only one and puts us on evens

Who would you suggest protecting?

Also, my floating theory for why Datisi is dead and The Bulge isn't, is because scum rolecopped Datisi night 1, and so killed him night 2 over the doc claim. The fact everyone believed The Bulge's claim lends to this, since normally it'd be far more optimal to just kill the claimed doc everyone trusts rather try and snipe for another PR. I think it's far more likely they knew was a mason from a night 1 check.

Your strong townread on Datisi fits that narrative of scum being fine with townreading the mason and leaving them be because they know they're gonna kill them the next night.

[Augustus Caesar]

Finally ordering my reads into a workable headspace. Starting with 4 strongest townreads.

Spoiler: WIP ordered reads

Ydrasse -

POSTIVES:
I'm extremely confident Ydrasse is town for tone and emotion.
Firstly, for her end of day 1 reaction to being counterwagoned to scum.
Secondly, for her emotional reaction to Datisi pushing her. More in 1692 1704 1732.


Puff -

POSITIVES:
Initially, I thought her town since her entrance was very LHFey, and I'd expect some level of coaching from teammates.
This was a towny post in perspective that I see unlikely as coming from scum!Puff.
Overall, her play is antagonistic and draws a lot of attention, I think it unlikely she's the type of player who comes out swinging like this for Team Mafia.


The Bulge -

POSITIVES:
The crumbs for his claim, and his suspicion on peta for the psyched post.
The Bulge's play since then has just looked a lot more towny, the arguments make sense.
His annoyance at me for outing him in posts like this, and others.
His highly emotional entrance start of today.

NEGATIVES:
I have one major hangup with The Bulge, and it's him expressing fear of being nightkilled. I think it's far more likely he makes that post as scum, since it has the benefits of making him look like a PR and he doesn't have the concern of not being nightkilled. Being a PR however, it's somewhat careless and I'd expect more caution.


Xofelf -

POSITIVES:
Initially thought her posting felt organic and natural, I think she believes what she's digging at.
I think it's very unlikely xofelf interacts with RCE in the way a scum partner would, and similarly the way RCE interacted with xofelf.
I like the way she scumreads Ydrasse based on what she knows from playing LSGs. She's taking her skillset from playing social games like survivor, and trying to apply that to Ydrasse to solve her. I like it.

NEGATIVES:
I don't like the way she responsed to me about my towncase on Ydrasse here, and here. It felt stubborn yet sympathetic and the contrast felt off.

[Augustus Caesar]

sorry sorry sorry

I'll remember next time

[Augustus Caesar]

I got the vibe the sympathy was being overplayed, like they were trying to disagree with my read while not trying to step on my toes. It's a minor hang-up though.

[Augustus Caesar]

It's a really towny pebble though, like one of those designed to massage your soles ya know

I realised I was part of the problem there and that we were in danger of getting too many claims out. Glad we didn't go any further on Puff...

[Augustus Caesar]

You don't wear shoes? that's kinda weird

and yeah, got a lot of gold to dig through in that garbage yesterday

[Augustus Caesar]

[Augustus Caesar]

And it sure felt like trying to get as many claims out in one shot as possible, and I hate that shit.

I felt this very hard and tbh I felt like it was Hectic driving a lot of the chaos.

Jingle put me on to a possible deepwolf there and iirc both Bulge and Sirius mentioned it in passing too.
I may make a case for that finally this phase now that I'm saying something about it because I've felt unease on the slot for a while now but have been letting it ruminate for fear I was totally offbase.

Day 2 was a deadline scramble I think that's the word they call it.

It was. Did you glean any reads from it?

I was being impulsive EoD yesterday. My scumgame's actually a lot more structured and safe fyi, I probably can't fake the level of progression or randomness I exhibited yesterday

But yeah, I'm gonna hone that chaos in today, which is a large part of why I'm making an ordered reads list with reasons I believe in to track so I can internalize my reads and not flip-flop on a slot I previously thought was strongly town, like I almost did on Puff yesterday

[Augustus Caesar]

And ftr, I don't think the chaos was a bad thing. Deas/Puff/Ari/Sirius/Ydrasse were all candidates in the last couple of irl days, but at the end we only got Sirius to claim and launched him (I know Deas had already claimed previously). So, otherwise, no harm was done other than info gained to scour over.

I nearly pushed Puff enough which likely would've lead to a claim, but there's a reason I made this post when I realised I was being terribly impulsive and we should just make the safe launch over outting more roles:

you know what

YOU KNOW WHAT

VOTE: Sirius

the meta that points to him being town is from too long ago to put massive stock into, and he's never gonna make any content to reasonably convince anyone he's town. him having fun is the only reason to townread him, and that read will basically never change because he provides close to no content. ergo, he shouldn't be allowed near lylo because we'll have far more tangible reasons to townread others, while we'll always be kinda unsure about him

also, I wanted to hold off on saying this but in case I don't come back: Akarin giving Puff a whole spiel of thoughts because Puff struggling but Puff not sharing that is really towny. if Puff can post this and it's relatively long and not in toooo long from now, it proves Akarin was actually helping Puff with the game in chat, and Puff wasn't using that as team reads to provide to the thread, meaning they existed beforehand and Puff only thought to show them because she wants her teammate's reads to be valued before she gets mislaunched. unless they've been planning this as a SECRET WEAPON in the event Puff is on the ropes, but that's kinda big brain if it's the case. does this make sense? i'm in a very tired state.

so Puff, the sooner you can post these, the better it looks for you, since it proves you and Akarin aren't just making them up now on the spot, but that they existed beforehand

also I read back on earlier reasons I had to townread Puff and I realised I should stop being so impulsive and actually remember the reasons I had to strongly townread players I wa sstrongly townreading

Alright, I kind of have a headache which might be from playing too much mafia recently, so I'm gonna take a break and be back tomorrow when I'm better rested. Finish up that readslist hopefully.

[Augustus Caesar]

Nah, no value. Especially when there's no good reason right with no outed power roles to protect.

[Augustus Caesar]

for the double-whammy "why is bulge still alive?" + "why did you let X die?" push. leashing my protection would obviously be playing right into this frame, which is why besides all the other reasons you all know it's terrible, I especially hate Creature's earlier suggestion of directing my action.

What do you mean by this? If we leashed you onto a target, why would you be "letting" someone die? Oh wait, you mean if you were roleblocked and the person you were supposed to protect dies anyway. Right. I don't know if Creature would be so obvious about it and be the first to propose it if that was the plan though.

Good point about it being a little unlikely there's an Informed Mafia that knows the setup + a rolecop - seems a little too overlappy.

[Augustus Caesar]

Deas, how do you read Ydrasse now?

[Augustus Caesar]

Spoiler: WIP ordered reads

Ydrasse -

POSTIVES:
I'm extremely confident Ydrasse is town for tone and emotion.
Firstly, for her end of day 1 reaction to being counterwagoned to scum.
Secondly, for her emotional reaction to Datisi pushing her. More in 1692 1704 1732.


Puff -

POSITIVES:
Initially, I thought her town since her entrance was very LHFey, and I'd expect some level of coaching from teammates.
This was a towny post in perspective that I see unlikely as coming from scum!Puff.
Overall, her play is antagonistic and draws a lot of attention, I think it unlikely she's the type of player who comes out swinging like this for Team Mafia.
Akarin and Puff had talked about the game in a previous day, and Puff had not presented these reads to us previously. She only felt the need to share them when she thought she was going to be mislaunched, and didn't want Akarin's thoughts to go to waste. I find it unlikely Akarin prepared notes for Puff to share to look towny at a later date, and I think the recounting of the discord conversation felt real.

The Bulge -

POSITIVES:
The crumbs for his claim, and his suspicion on peta for the psyched post.
The Bulge's play since then has just looked a lot more towny, the arguments make sense.
His annoyance at me for outing him in posts like this, and others.
His highly emotional entrance start of today.

NEGATIVES:
I have one major hangup with The Bulge, and it's him expressing fear of being nightkilled. I think it's more likely he makes that post as scum, since it has the benefits of making him look like a PR and he doesn't have the concern of not being nightkilled. Being a PR however, it's somewhat careless and I'd expect more caution.


Xofelf -

POSITIVES:
Initially thought their posting felt organic and natural, I think they believe what they're digging at.
I think it's very unlikely xofelf interacts with RCE in the way a scum partner would, and similarly the way RCE interacted with xofelf.
I like the way they scumread Ydrasse based on what she knows from playing LSGs. They're taking their skillset from playing social games like survivor, and trying to apply that to Ydrasse to solve her. I like it.

NEGATIVES:
I don't like the way they responded to me about my towncase on Ydrasse here, and here. It felt stubborn yet sympathetic and the contrast felt off. As if they wanted to disagree with me since Ydrasse is a possible mislaunch, but didn't want to step on my toes too much.


DeasVail -

POSITIVES:
Deas said he thought I was even more town after I pushed him, but never expanded on why. He only brought up why today, and the reasoning is solid and looks towny. The reason why I think this is so town-indicative, is that Deas had a good reason to think I was town but didn't feel the need to explain it to make himself look towny yesterday while he was nearly murdered several times, he only brought it up when someone suggested I might be a deepwolf the next day. Shows there's an underlying thought process there and one he didn't care to use to "look" town earlier.
If scum!Deas thinks Datisi is a mason or some other PR that he plans to kill in the night, I don't think he pushes him to the extent he does yesterday.
1984 and 1994 bleed town to me. His concerns feel really real and I love the paranoia about him thinking he might be wrong about Ari, but still not wanting to counterwagon him.

NEGATIVES:
This feels oddly blunt for Deas, and I wonder if the difference is due to talking to a scum buddy and wanting to appear strong/unaligned.
My initial case on him. Didn't like how he didn't argue more for keeping RCE around for a night.

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, I forgot to mention: I'm only including "strong" factors in these reads. I'm trying not to look at every little thing a slot's done like their reads and what reasoning makes sense, or what I don't agree with etc. I'm just looking for the things that I really believe in being town-indicative or scum-indicative.

I'm trying to do one on Creature right now and it feels impossible. How does one read this dragon?!?!?!2

[Augustus Caesar]

This will probably go against my team's interests, but I want to work around the world xoffer and DeasVail are town.

Why'd you make this post at the time, Creature? Outside of this post, you've been consistently pushing and sus of both of those two, so, where did that world go?

[Augustus Caesar]

I kept having edge-case-thoughts that Datisi was scum playing up how much he hated this game, and it makes me a little sad that I know he really did hate it now. It's not been thaaaat bad

[Augustus Caesar]

In fact, it's been GREAT. I love it

[Augustus Caesar]

Okay, I give up on doing one of those on Creature. So, instead I'm just gonna do a mega ISO + talk about general thoughts I have, and hopefully you all can chip in and we can get somewhere.

Spoiler: Creature of Habit

Damn, we won't be so good if we mislynch today.

This feels fake.

Creature constantly bringing up DGB's reads and using them to push Deas/xofelf is something I actually find quite scummy. I see your argument that you don't think Creature does that as scum, Deas, but I kinda agree with Reck that that just boils down to too scummy to be scum. Main reason I think it's scummy for Creature specifically, is because Creature when town generally has a very high accuracy rate. His reads are actually really good even if he isn't the best at articulating them, and it's not a bad strat to just sheep him sometimes in games if you think he's town. He's also not afraid to voice those reads and push them. In comparison, for day 2, I only recall two reads he had of his own that he kept repeating - that was Datisi and I being town. Creature not having a single scumread of his own, or any other town feels outside of that feels really strange to me.

I'm really meh about Reck. Though I find it towny Reck has been constantly ignored as I would expect scum to gain a little more consideration in their pushes.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

That leaves:

Sirius9121
Aristophanes
Summer Nights
xofelf
DeasVail
The Bulge
xRECKONERx

I hate how townreading any of these players makes me feel wrong.

This frustration feels towny.

i thought you thought deas is scum?

Now I'm not sure

why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

Wasn't he sheeping his team on Deas being scum? He frames this like it was his scumread that he's changed his mind on. DGB doesn't get brought up past this point.

VOTE: Adorable

Weird, considering this:

I townread Datisi and Hectic. My team is strongly townread Adorable. Maybe I can start from here.

VOTE: RCEnigma

atp this slot is a liability

Little weird he calls it a liability rather than just scum. The Bulge had the same thought about this post.

That leaves:

Sirius9121
Aristophanes
Summer Nights
xofelf
DeasVail
The Bulge
xRECKONERx

Oh, and these types of posts. I'm in two minds about them. The way he keeps posting a list of names like this felt towny to me at first, like he's desperately trying to post names he's interesting in finding scum in, to help himself get a better bearing on the game. But, there's basically never any good followup to these posts, like, no real solving or actual delving deeper than just posting a list of names, so now I think it's a little performative.

Hectic, do you stick with your godread on Ydrasse?

Maybe I'm biased, but I liked- nah, even as I'm typing this I realise asking a simple question like this isn't at all hard to fake as scum. Disregard.

Online list has some interesting names

lmao, didn't notice xofelf.

Those names pop up at strange times.

Looking for elitells/people online is always +town

[Augustus Caesar]

Creature, a few questions:

This will probably go against my team's interests, but I want to work around the world xoffer and DeasVail are town.

Why'd you make this post at the time? Outside of this post, you've been consistently pushing and sus of both of those two, so, where did that world go?

---

why

I dunno if this feels like DV's sxumgame as I remember it

Did DGB chip in on her take on Deas around this time? What was it?

---

Finally, what are YOUR scumreads? Is your xofelf read still you sheeping DGB?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh God... I need reread Reck and Ari and I'm dreading it

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, Creature, one other question I forgot about:

VOTE: Adorable

Why'd you make this vote, considering your team had this opinion:

I townread Datisi and Hectic. My team is strongly townread Adorable. Maybe I can start from here.

What changed?

[Augustus Caesar]

Oh, my insane tinfoil read:

Probably, through 7 pages my shortlist poe is datisi/Deasveil/Reck

RCE's been around for a while, and is aware of the "rule of three" - where if a scum player states a scumpool of three players, they usually have exactly 1 scum. He wouldn't make a novice mistake like that for TEAM MAFIA now, would he??!"??R£?$Geg

The tinfoil theory is that all 3 of those players are town.

[Augustus Caesar]

This seems to be a pattern. Hectic jumps on or leads a wagon on someone, then declares them to be town. Actually Hectic's entire game is weirdly built around declaring people town and following townreads. I generally find that to be scummy because it's way easier for scum to hide behind townreads they know to be true than try to manufacture scumreads on people to push mislims.

I vote and pressure someone I think is scum, give reasons for why I scumread them, people like or agree with my reasons, and vote with me. The Bulge and Deas both reacted in towny ways to pressure.

You're saying I'm both simultaneously scum hiding behind townreads because those are easier to manufacture, while acknowledging I've been pushing scumreads and leading wagons all game? Which is it? I scumread and gave cases on Deas and The Bulge and was the reason they were both wagoned. I don't understand this at all.

The Ydrasse pocketing thing is really stupid considering she would most likely be dead on day 1 or 2 if I hadn't convinced people she were town, and the fact my reasons are very good. I'm not unnecessarily defending her and it's not over the top. I'm defending her because I strongly believe she's town and she would very likely run up and mislaunched if I didn't.