Open 806: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Bridgeburners]

i'm sure you could, like, case better if you wanted to (or if i, like, demanded it) as either alignment, so i'm not sure going through the motions of actually writing the case is going to prove much tbh

but like again the current stated reasons in thread basically boil down too: being wishy-washy, not townie enuf, some amt of iioa, piggy-backing off of dats's criticism and it's just, like, very lazy and feels like a sort of read scum might make to hasten a looming misflip on that one townie that is just posting badly. and it doesn't 100% gel with the way you're playing around implo who's functionally getting run up in a very similar manner

like sure you *can* write up a scumcase on aff using the reasoning you're giving but i'm not sure they actually make him scum?

(and i'm sure you can do the dats post thing you did on the previous page as scum! in fact i think that's a minor scumtell - not just for you, but like in general!)

~ skitteR

This ^
Also my convo with peta in the 2-3 pagea prior to this i think adequately explains my feelings abt his slot

Fuuuuuuuck

[Bridgeburners]

okay, how does me being wrong on a read make me scum

This isnt what i'm accusing u of and i'm like >95% sure you know that

I'm saying the read was bad, not that the read was wrong. The fact that the read was wrong was incidental

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

I'm gonna bounce now (sleeeeeeeeeeep) but i'll circle back to that peta ^

(Might be post weekend vla tho)

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

okay, how does me being wrong on a read make me scum

This isnt what i'm accusing u of and i'm like >95% sure you know that

I'm saying the read was bad, not that the read was wrong. The fact that the read was wrong was incidental

~ skitteR

no i really don't understand

why was it bad. what does that mean, exactly. why does it make me scum. try to explain this because you really haven't

Your vote/read on aaron looked incidental and like you didnt particularly believe it - but rather like you felt like you could join the push on him without generating too much suspicion

Your main reasons for voting him, as best as i can tell, was that he was underwhelming and didnt towntell enuf. (Not that he was particularly scummy, mind you, but rather that he wasnt really townie) + you just piggybacked off of dats' reason for scumreading him

It looked like you didnt actually scumread him, bit rather that it was a convenient push for you to have. I called you out on this at the time, but never really got a satisfactory answer

Also, implosion was being wagoned for really similar reasons but you wouldnt touch that wagon and the inconsistency still doesn't make sense to me either

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

they attacked shirou early after his replace in although looking back it's not as strong as i thought and they reached a detente with him so it's kind of meh, but the 1140 i didn't like yesterday is the start of the argument with him and i think they look better in light of the flip? my inclination is to say he doesn't attack his teammate right away when no one else is.

Again i literally cited this post as a reason to townread him a week ago and you complained at the time

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

Despite his bad takes i kinda thinj infinity is town

~skitter

[Bridgeburners]

no one cares that there was no scum kill last night?

I mean i kinda talked abt it but i cant really draw a conclusion with the information i have

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

Sorry, what prompted the unvote?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

It looks like u have real, nuanced thoughts (tm) + you feel like the town!infinity i have seen in the past

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

That's such a meh read

That's alright

Peta i'll answer after my vla; fridays are a bit hard for me :/

Have a great weekend y'all

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

Where did you learn Japanese, Pingu?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Google translate is giving me “I’m a village” when reversed which is amusing

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

i addressed all of this already and you're just repeating the same things at me verbatim, you just want to paint a narrative and don't care about anything i'm actually saying

i mean, i know you addressed these things already; it's not like i have anything new here per se, but you asked me to elaborate so i did.
like you're getting annoyed with me for saying the same things when you asked me to repeat them ...
(and i don't feel like your explanation therein really negates the fact that i view these things as scummy)

we don't really have to continue going around in circles; i'll respond to your response below but if you feel like it isn't really helpful i don't mind if you ignore it
i do feel like these things point to you having a scummy read on aaron tho, and i don't really think your explanations are changing my mind

~

"underwhelming" was not a reason i was voting aaronfrost, i thought his posts had a tendency toward IIoA-y filler that you sometimes see from newbscum, there was a few instances where he made fencesitty statements that seemed to comment on current events without taking a stance, he seemed afraid to push people. it was wrong. doesn't matter, i really believed in it.

he isn't newbscum, he's been around for a couple of years now. (i'm p sure i was an ic/se in his newbie game!!)
you're kinda failing to explain why it's more likely that the iioa stuff came from newbscum vs someone who didn't have much time and was just posting incidentally
i also think you're overexaggerating the amt of fence-sitting he did

like i think it's easy to paint aaron scum if someone wanted to join the wgon and was looking to do so, and i think that's exactly what you were doing

in fact i searched my goddamn iso and YOU have been the one accusing ME of being scum for being "underwhelming" this entire time, you're projecting right now - like, "underwhelming and didnt towntell enuf" is the basis of YOUR SCUMREAD OF ME. what a load of crap.

i don't think i have? or at least not currently, maybe i did when you first repped in. now i'm accusing you of being scum for having bad reads that i think you're taking because they're expedient, rather than reads you truly believe.

where is this assumption that i'm latching on solely out of convenience coming from? i legitimately believed in the read, just as much as i believed ben's claim was fake. i mean, the thing is, i probably WOUD have argued the same case as scum, because that was my scumread prior to replacing into the game. i would have been coming from a place of legitimate conviction regardless. i don't have trouble faking conviction, trying to argue that is stupid! and regardless, i DID really believe it, claiming i didn't is just narrativism on your part

honestly, cuz you're a good player, and i think town!you takes a more nuanced approach than 'eh bad posting = newbscum'. like, quite simply, your read looks like you made it cuz you thought an aaron wagon could go through, so you had the read. i don't think town-you has that read there (or at least, if you did, you're just satisfied to sit on the wagon through eod for the reasons you're giving for scumreading him)

again, i did not feel the reasons for scumreading aaron and implosion were remotely similar. i pulled the posts on implosion and said i did not thnk the case against him was very good. i think if you actually cared about reading into what people were saying you would see these reasons weren't really at all similar - schiavetto was making points that he found specific implosion posts scummy, but other people were just agreeing/following along because they didn't find him particularly town, i guess.

ok, why were the reason for scumreading implo worse than the reasons for scumreading aaron?

~

okay? i was wrong and reevaluated in light of the flip. not hard to understand if you're not trying to go for easy points on me. like, seriously. i interpreted things one way at the time and when presented with information that showed one of my assumptions is wrong, i went back and re-evaluated. anyone would do the same, it's not scummy

my point isn't inherently that you were wrong wrt ico. my point is that you were wrong wrt ico and are coming around to having the exact same read i had while still scumreading me. it would make sense to me if you were to go: 'oh skitter had a similar read to me now on ico, hmmmm she's approaching ico in a way that i know to be townie, ok let me take that into acct when reading her'. it doesn't make sense to me that you're kinda ignoring my ico read when forming a read on me

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

It looks like u have real, nuanced thoughts (tm) + you feel like the town!infinity i have seen in the past

~ skitter

infinity i'm just gonna repeat this (with emphasis)

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in

any interest in switching to voting peta?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

ok i'm actually reading up now

VOTE: BridgeBurners

There was no scum kill? But wasn't there two kills? And isn't there no guarantee of SK? i'm confused but pengu say "why don't people care about missing kills" and everyone is asking like kills are indeed missing

hello

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

most of shirou's interactions are so messy that i gave up on trying to read into them, not that i want to discourage you from trying, i just have no idea what to make of most of them

this reads partner-y with shirou and like infinity is on the right track lol

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

dats do you have anything to talk about that isn't 'omg how can anyone still possibly be reading ico as scum still????'
becuase i feel like that's all your posting abt

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

nope

i mean you'd say that as either alignment lol

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

kind of weird posts to be making in succession

i mean the post abt infinity is strengthening my scumread on you, so, not really

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

no i think i'm actually going to keep fighting this because i think your explanations suck

ok! i'm gonna put it in spoilers tho!

Spoiler:

okay whatever get wrapped up in the technicalities, to a significant extent his posts avoided saying anything useful and i tend to find that scummy, the idea that this is an insufficient case for day 1 is ridiculous

like, in theory, hypothetically, as scum, i would press on that anyway but that's only because i, here, as town, mistakenly read it as scummy, the idea that i somehow should not have been reading it that way is stupid because this is how i try to read people and it's not at all dissimilar to how i've tried to read people in other games

it was surface-level scummy, sure, whatever, i agree with you. it. did. not. make. him. scum. tho.
and you definitely know better than to equate Bad Posting with scumminess, so the fact that you *did* is what i find scummy

iioa != scum
bad posting != scum
fencesitting != scum

and it's ridiculous that you're sitting here arguing with me that those things were why you were scumreading aaron.

if you at least were saying: eh idk i don't townread him but it's bad and i don't have anywhere better to go and we're running otu of time so i'll just vote the game i'm underwhelmed by
than like find i'd understand that and think it's a believeable stance
but this is a really, really silly stance to take

and i see later you're complaining about me bop-ing you
yeah it's annoying af and i hate when people do it to me. i agree. but at the same time, it *is* a valid way to read people, and you're halfway decent at this, so vague excuses for shitty scumreads won't cut it, i'm sorry

and i do think that i ahve enuf experience with you to be able to see you can be bop'd; i'm not sure why you think i wouldn't - i've got 3 towngames with you and i read you correctly in all of them; i know what your towngame looks like, and i know your scumgame is very good

again me having a bad read doesn't make me scum, that's complete bullshit, you have no basis to claim i don't "truly believe" this. first reference you made to me being "underwhelming" was 1801, to a significant extent the basis of your read on me was the shit you tried to accuse me of when you outright misrepresented my read

you having a bad read makes you scum when it's a read that i don't think town-you would ever have, yes

getting BoP read pisses me off, having it done by someone i have barely played with and have no track record of success playing with both pisses me off and doesn't make any sense

like, you don't know me, step the hell off. i'm playing like i always do

like i'm not trying to piss you off; i've already said i'm more than happy to stop the bickering if i am
but i think you're scum and i can't just drop the scumread because you don't like that i'm scumreading you
i apologize for pissing you off tho, that is not my intent

i already went into this in 1666 and 1778 where i went over the reasons for voting him. i said i didn't find them convincing then, i don't think they are remotely silimar to why i scumread aaron and you attempting to flatting them into being similar is complete nonsense because you're obviously not really reading into or concerned with the details of the reads

i don't get the difference.
can you eli5 because maybe i'm just missing something super obvious
(and i think it's kinda silly that you're saying i'm 'not concerned with the details of your reads' in response to a question where i ask you to explain the details of your reads)

[Bridgeburners]

just noting that peta is trying really, really hard to negate people's partner reads off of shirou's iso

also: daaaaaaaaattttttttttttssssssssssss i see you've been around today. do u have thoughts on things?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

tl;dr

i think peta is scum and his reasons for scumreading my slot are scummy, as were his reasons for scumreading aaron

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

sure
i mostly want to knwo if you have thoughts on people who aren't ico, and why all of your posting seems to be about ico

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

i'm probably like ~80% sure infinity is town? like enuf that i don't want him wagoned today much at all
but not enuf that i would unilaterally let him hold hammer in 3way if that makes sense

still not sure why all of your posting was about ico since daystart when there are other things going on ...
it almost feels like you're viewing the rest of the game through the lens of your ico read; like you're using that to latch onto the game - which is kinda how i approach the game as scum? i find something to talk abt and then just orient my whole game around that. and that's kinda what you're doing with ico and i'm not really sure *why* that's what you're doing with ico

the line where you say: 'like usually when skitter's in a tvs' do you mean when i'm the scum or the town in the tvs?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

hmmmmmmm ok fair enuf

is there anything i can do to help you get back into it?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

i haven't heard from mena since overnight :/ i'll let him know tho

implo i still never really ~liked~ but i've played against scum-him like three times and i always townread scum-him so i'm wondering if i'm not townrading him atm if that means he's town? i don't know. i don't have a good read on him. ithink he had some anti-partner-y vibes with ben as his wagon formed, so if ben (ss) was scum i think it would point to town-implo but i think ss is town anyways now so this is probably moot
i like still don't twonread him per se but i also don't know if i want him flipped, as he seems like everyone's favorite cw rn

peta is by far my biggest scumread, and i'm not sure where scum is otherwise, which is why i decided to start working on some of the other slots i don't have great reads on (i.e. at this moment i'm sorting you, etc)

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

fair enuf!

i'm still not loving your entrance tho

despite this i was telling mena earlier that i think the stalled cws on aff + implo kinda loosely point to them being tvt - scum have no motivation to switch or force either wagon in particular through, and are fairly content to passively watch either play out

i think this explains the sluggishness of the past few irl days

this is wholly a gamestate read, i still dislike ur slot on play to be clear

~ skitteR

This?

~ skitteR

Ugh

[Bridgeburners]

Yeah i wasnt really sure what u were referring yo either, that was the best i could come up with

Strong enuf (at least coupled with how today us playing out) that i'm not super vibing an implo vote rn

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

peta

the audience simply isn't there
nobody is reading this other than us two

like i'll happily continue to bicker with you but this isn't going to get traction for either of us so this is kinda pointless since i'm obviously not convincing you you're scum and you're not gonna convince me i'm scum either

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

ok
i'm sorry
i'm not trying to piss you off

i'm not really sure what you're looking from me here tho

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

because i have certainly done that before

can you show me an example please?

[Bridgeburners]

you had such Good Posting in pyp tho, and here you just kinda don't :/

maybe i'm tunneled. idk. if i am i don't know where scum is rn

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

like there we got: viewtopic.php?p=12276947#p12276947
and here we get you quoting a bunch of posts and going 'meh these are bad'

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

i mean i'm trying to end it, it's not going anywhere

i agree that he's being angry/emotional in a way that i wouldn't really associate with his towngame

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

it isn't a good take on you

again sorry peta, wasn't trying to annoy you :/

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

i did kinda like that ss backed off pushing you like mid-day1 tbh
i still think ss is very much +town

the one thing that i'm a little bit paranoid abt is that he's trying to pull the 'no nk to townclear a scum' again
which probably isn't *super* likely but i am a bit worried abt it

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

i think voting day1 is townindicative for him tho

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

I'm p sure i've seen town!him vote day1 (not always, but sometimes), whereas i dont think i've ever seen scum-him vote day1

(Before you ask me where, i dont know. I've played enuf with him that ii have to hunt it down)

[Bridgeburners]

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=81123
I haf found it

(Along with a game i was in where he made an rvs vote and never took it off, which probably doesnt count)

[Bridgeburners]

Linking a scum game - brave.

Indeed

[Bridgeburners]

bridgeburners tmi townreading such a watery slot after it's flipped for pages and pages is absurd. it's absurd bridgeburners isn't hammered

Isis i don't, like, get what your problem is with my shot exactly

I also don't know who you think I'm 'tmi townreading'

[Bridgeburners]

Can you like eli5 why exactly you're scumreading me?

You've been taking swipes at me for a while and i dont entirely get why

[Bridgeburners]

UNVOTE:

Ill take a step back and try to view this with fresh eyes a little later too

VOTE: schiavetto

~ skitter

(All recent unsigned posts today has been me)

[Bridgeburners]

Its a sorting vote
I dont necessarily scumread him but i dont have a good townread there either
I'm working on my lesser-level reads rn

[Bridgeburners]

VOTE: bridgeburners

would love to try and get done with trying to see what's bridge tbh

and off to sleep, sorry y'all

- hYdra

Uh hi .....

Why are you voting me exactly?

[Bridgeburners]

what about today playing out is making you doubt it further?

Gamestate is dead and it feels like scum have no incentive to do anything, and are just letting current wagon build

And on a similar note: why are we a wagon exactly ?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

- we have a very large hydra pt that is where the vig discussion happened (kinda died over the past couple of days since mean disappeared, but eh). i'm not sure why you think it's more likely that that convo happened in a mafia pt over a hydra pt, esp. since the consensus seems to be that there isn't daytalk ...

- mena didn't always run all the votes by me, this is true, but i'm not sure why this is scum-indicative and not indictive of mena being impulsive. after people complained i have tried to make a conscious effort to at least by un-dissonant on actual votes (well until today when mena hasn't been around at all and i wouldn't be voting at all if i waited for that)
(aside i also think i'd be a lot more on top of our votes and making sure mena's aligned with my overall trajectory of the slot as scum)

- kinda silly to accuse me of 'really awful voting record all game' / bop when most of the slots who have been wagons / we've voted haven't flipped yet. (like, how do you know i've been wrong exactly) pooky was more because of deadline and not liking the other wagons than anything else (until he started doing the ate thing, that became real). what else don't you like about our voting record ?

- isis. i don't vote day1 wagons taht i don't like. i'm kinda baffled that you're spinning that into something scum-indicative. it would have been the easiest thing in the world to hop onto like any of {ss, implo, aff earlier} if i were scum and wanted to take the easy flip

- and you're not really posting things that are easy for me to interact with? and you're being exceedingly weird this game, and i'm p sure you know that, so i'm not sure why this is on me and not on you

- idk what the dealyed omgus thing (and i didn't do it apparently) so i don't have a response to that one

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

The way peta is pointing out that he did pre-role PM reads that are being called fake and how that's a bulletproof defense and BB giving no ground is just, super weird, and it's like BB cares way way too much about showing no weakness or having any vulnerability.

There's like this total lack of empathy. If you ever read a game before repping in, and get an analysis based read that's harder to develop if you have a scum role PM, why would you ever not post it? You'd always post it. It's either a solve, or it's the best fake townspew you could possibly have available. You'd have to posit that petapan didn't actually read pre-repin, which BB has never actually posited. In fact BB never really directly engages with peta's point and talks past him over and over again and talkpast is extremely scumindicative for my conception of skitter (and most of the time it will just win her the game anyway)

i backed off upon him showing the pre-role pm notes ???

[Bridgeburners]

i also feel like i engaged with his points? like ...

[Bridgeburners]

shirou has a really, really good scumgame and is good at screwing with associatives, so he's probably not the best to try to read in that way tbh

on a related note i had looked at notsci's iso earlier and this is what i had come up (i had forgotten i had done this) with so uh maybe let's UNVOTE:
(namely that notsci's vote on him didn't look partner-y)

i think (?) notscience's iso is +town for schiavetto

also ss result?

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

notscience is not even actually a low-poster/inactive, he just said he was going to be, then he's had standard activity. I thought it was weird. I guess the only scenario where it's scummy weird is when notscience has posted in a scum PT that he's gonna self impose a limit and gets to lurk but don't worry he'd prob do it as town too.
It's not super characterizable but it's super weird! like notsci feels high content to me. Though I don't remember much of the content so he's probably scum

also i just saw this post and thought it was of note so i am requoting it here

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

actually from notsci some other anti-partner-y vibes to some degree or another:
- dats
- scipio (peta)
- sechyd
- schiavetto

(none of these are like super strong, but are of note)

i do think he had a weird associative with isis tho

[Bridgeburners]

the way you did it kinda looked like you were trying to disabuse infinity of the specific reads he got off of shirou's iso

[Bridgeburners]

Skitt I specifically asked people's opinion on the shirou stuff

oh
i must've missed that part

isis ... what are you doing with infinity exactly
and are you planning on responding to me?

[Bridgeburners]

I'M NOW GUARANTEEING

AND I MEAN I

GUARANTEE

A SCUM FLIP ON S_S

NO ONE FORGETS HIS OWN ROLE_PM

IF HE WAS TOWN FAKECLAIMING I BET HE WOULD SIMPLY DISPROVE IT PUBLICLY

BUT RESIGNED SCUM!SS COULD FORGET OR TRY TO PRETEND HE FORGOT HIS ROLE/CLAIM EVEN THOUGH HE HAD UPON REPLACING-IN RECOGNIZED THAT HIS SLOT WAS A CLAIMED TRACKER

THE SLOT IS NOT TOWN I ASSURE YOU

I WANT TO SEE SS VOTES, AND VOTING IMPLOSION FROM NOW ON FOR ANYONE BUT ISIS IS A SCUM CLAIM FOR ME

i know i just said that shirou has good associatives but i think this whole thing is anti-partner-y for ss

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

My eyes are glazing over words by this point on the ISOs.

skitter I'm very interested on us discussing what are "consensus town reads" in this game, and why rather than dropping names you leave the remark on that and consider benching to implosion which is a popular scum read.

hmmmmmm

pedit thanks infinity
peta i retract that point, i missed that infinity all but invited you to have that comment

implosion yeah i agree i wanna table ss for today

[Bridgeburners]

honestly i'm mostly annoyed that isis is playing incredibly bizarrely, and is then going and blaming me for not engaging with her normally

i'm not sure this is like scum-indicative or anything but it annoys me

[Bridgeburners]

Bridge's voting patterns to me feel almost absurd as scum. I

also like accusing my voting pattern of beign BOP levels bad is like

[Bridgeburners]

this game still feels very weird and i'm still lowkey wondering if it's a 2man scumteam + sk

[Bridgeburners]

looks like he was trying to find a place an easy place to lay a vote down that might get some traction; it was like his one significant vote of the game and i don't think he does it on a partner out of nowhere (i.e. if schiavetto had been wagoned just then i would have thoguht it might be a distancing vote but i don't think i've ever really seen a distancing vote done in that way at that time before)

like i would be really surprised if that was a distancing vote - it makes a lot more sense to me as a 'hmmmm this looks like a semi-viable push to me rn let's see if i can get something going there' vote

[Bridgeburners]

I'm interested in your reasons for the vote though.

PP has felt more useless than he usually does, to the point where I was pretty surprised to see that he had 144 posts.

Very roughly, my impression of his towngame is that he makes snarky comments that are sometimes productive or good points, and as scum he fades into the background more. He's been present, but not really doing much that feels like it will advance the game, aside from voting/campaigning for votes which is pretty easy for scum to do.

i think you have this like half-right, in that he does tend to fade into the background more as scum.
but (and this is a big but), he doesn't do the voting/campaigning for votes really as scum (or at the very least, doesn't have his heart in it and it's very going-through-the-motions-y). the fact that he is now is very +town imo

~ skitteR

i don't think i've had a wrong read on penguin in like six months reading him this way
maybe this is the time i'm wrong
but i don't think so just yet

[Bridgeburners]

isis this is maybe why i haven't really been engaging with you? what am i supposed to say to that even

also i don't get why you're townreading me off of those posts ...

[Bridgeburners]

isis why do u feel so weird and disengaged and like float-y

[Bridgeburners]

are you drunk rn

[Bridgeburners]

skitter feeling like she's playing around me instead of playing against me, all game, which is kind of just a vibe.

like this one in particular really doesn't make sense to me given how you're playing
like ... how am i supposed to respond to your response where you post things like 2712 and 2707
what do those even mean. why are you townreading my recent posting. like

pedit isis you're kinda making me want to vote you with how you're playing rn ngl

[Bridgeburners]

isis literally nothing you're saying makes sense rn

[Bridgeburners]

skitter do you have a modern penguin opinion

it's the same opinion, it hasn't really changed

[Bridgeburners]

ok again skitter like what was that towngame we played where you were like "isis is my favorite town levelheaded player and her solves are good" i don't get why being befuddled by my play would make you scumread me

i believe you want to vote me but not scumread me, actually

yes i believe this is exactly what i said

[Bridgeburners]

no offense but you sound like you're drunkposting and make like no sense
(and i kinda dislike that you write up a whole case on me and when i respond you just ignore it and go like 'eh maybe i townread skitter no!!!' but you can't explain how or why that changed; honestly if your case was real in the first place i wouldn't have expected it to change at all)
i'm not sure if town-you posts this way
i'm p sure i saw you do this at least once in ss3

[Bridgeburners]

you wrote up a whole case!!!! some of which was about me!!!!
i don't get why you're just ignoring the whole case you just wrote???

[Bridgeburners]

it is fantastic! ty for asking

[Bridgeburners]

- okay that is fair if there's not actually a daytalk scum pt but is that a mistake you scumread me for >_<

- i'm rly confident in my reads and am willing to BoP you. And you didn't hardpush shirou or anything that i recall if you want to base on flips

- idk what this one was about

- hm i am kinda not posting stuff that's not easy for you to interact with i guess. BUT. I feel like i've never been cased. And the pivots from neutral to voting me don't seem clearly marked with watershed posts

- mena can explain to you how he is scum

1. i mean no, i don't inherently scumread you for it, but i'm pointing out it's a kinda ridiculous reason to scumread me ....
2. nobody hardpushed shirou >.> are you basically saying you're willing to bop me over unflipped reads ...?
3. so we're saying this one is kinda baseless too?
4. i haven't cased you anytime recently, no. but i also haven't scumread you between like post 500 and earlier this evening so why would i have done that exactly ...? and this also doesn't address the point of: you're accusing me of being scummy for not interacting with you when we all agree you're behaving in a way that's hard for me to interact with you ... i switched to wanted to vote you when you cased me off of basically ... baseless reasons and couldn't/wouldn't defend them afterwards

[Bridgeburners]

VOTE: isis

[Bridgeburners]

Sup

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Ya boi is here, ya boi is high, ya boi is making some questionable but not necessarily wrong life choices recently

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

numerous gutpings from both heads

How exactly are both of our heads gutpinging you when I haven’t posted in 5 days?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

i swear to god you are singlehandedly undermining every bit of goodwill that shirou flip has bought you

I agree with this, literally everything gypyx has posted in the last 48 hours has been awful

Dats do u agree with this assessment y/n?

~ skit

[Bridgeburners]

numerous gutpings from both heads

How exactly are both of our heads gutpinging you when I haven’t posted in 5 days?

-QB

cuz it dates back to day 1

- hYdra

Then like... why do i have no recollection of this on D1 whatsoever?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

just for emphasis: literally everything gypyx has posted on this page is awful, and i also really dislike that he wants to handwave away ss3

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

no, we wouldn't have
and gypyx was on that scumteam as well

aslo ur weirdness is reminding me of ss3

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

just for emphasis: literally everything gypyx has posted on this page is awful, and i also really dislike that he wants to handwave away ss3

~ skitteR

You're really trying to open the limpool aren't you

no, and i'm not sure how or why that's your conclusion

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

Because your SRs (peta and now sechyd) are on slots that I think would seem pushable to scum but aren't being scumread by other people

I think that's at least at little +scum

i mean ... don't you think i would push people who would, like, have a chance of getting flipped? what's the point of pushing the slot that literally everyone says isn't partnered with the flipped scum

and, like, do you think his posting this evening was good?

i'm actually gonna vote him, it's literally that bad VOTE: sechyd

[Bridgeburners]

i think Datisi's infinity push looks.. underpostured? like how could Datisi draw an expectation that he could look good from it as scum. I think it actually is best characterized as scum if it's SvS. He knows know one will be sympathetic to the reasoning. Infinity has been kind popular all game. also it's predictable that Infinity has a nonzero chance to omgus it.

Does it really make sense?

can you say this again in other words? i don't really know what this means

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

PEdit: I think the hydra had significantly worse posts on d1

ok so what's your opinion on his posts from this evening?

[Bridgeburners]

- uh his vote on us is literally the prototypical scum vibe of: oh a nice wagon is formingi think i can slip on with no prior reasoning!!1!

- he's trying to degrade/undermine the reasoning you're giving for *not* joining my wagon when he doesn't really have a reason to be voting me other than the newfound 'gutpings'

- trying to undermine me noting that ss/shirou are probably not aligned (but isn't complaining when similar reasoning is being used to 'clear' his slot via anti-associatives)

- fence-sitting on implo

- posits that me and peta could be scum together

- tone is icky

like literally every post he made on the prior page is bad ^

~ skitter

mena also doesn't like his scumread of his half of the hydra

[Bridgeburners]

iirc he was the fourth just after isis did it but maybe i miscounted

i think these things are all together like, really scummy

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

ok fair enuf

either way i think the vote is bad, unjustified, and bandwagon-y

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

scum would have won ss3 if the setup was balanced

? I had, like, the worst reads of any townie and I had decent reads

i'm a pretty bad actress when the setup doesn't let me pick my own lines

i still sort of want to question datisi, and i feel i shouldn't stand in the doorway on implosion after day 1 but for right now at this moment in time

VOTE: secret hydra

SOLIDARITY

Indeed - i likechow i did the one-liner version and you expanded it with more words

[Bridgeburners]

I agree gypyx's posting is pretty bad but I don't feel like it's enough to outweigh the associative. I don't see it as as bad as skitter and peta both describe it. Though I think it is nice that he's managed to bring the two of them together purely aesthetically. That said, I honestly find it difficult to imagine a scumtell that I would consider to outweigh that associative on balance. I wouldn't shed a tear if sechyd died today but I'm fairly sure better flips exist, even if I still don't know who they are that I can actually accrue votes on.

honestly, gypyx doesn't, like, have a super wide scumrange and his posting over the past couple of days is sort of what i'd expect from him as scum

and he can be scum and not aligned with shirou anyways so like

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

A part of me actually really doesn't like skitter's take on sechyd; it's logically fine but I also felt Infinity's comment on opening the limpool and her response feels indignant in kind of a bad way. She has an amount of rhetorical sway and there are a lot of people like me and Penguin who have listed sechyd as some sort of ambiguous read (at least I described myself as wanting to vote him but not being able to or something like that, penguin listed them somewhere pretty low on his reads list, maybe others) to the point where she as scum could definitely feel like she'd be able to lead on them. Specifically I don't like the indignation in this post:

Because your SRs (peta and now sechyd) are on slots that I think would seem pushable to scum but aren't being scumread by other people

I think that's at least at little +scum

i mean ... don't you think i would push people who would, like, have a chance of getting flipped? what's the point of pushing the slot that literally everyone says isn't partnered with the flipped scum

and, like, do you think his posting this evening was good?

i'm actually gonna vote him, it's literally that bad VOTE: sechyd

Like. If you're

town

then what's the point of pushing the slot that "literally everyone says isn't partnered with the flipped scum"? Just because?

i mean i sometimes exagerrate things to elicit a certain rhetorical affect, sure. i'm not above that.
i'm trying to understand why infinity isn't viewing it as badly as i am

i'm not super confident i can actually get a lim on that slot despite the current gamestate and various slots indifference on secHyd - given that i'm p confident scum-me doesn't even try when there's about twelve thousand easier flips to pursue. it'll make me look bad, and it's bound to have a lot of resistance against it, and i don't think i would try as scum

but! as i'm not scum, and i actually think the slot is awful, i feel compelled to actually pursue it even tho it'll make me look bad and i think it's probably not gonna get enough traction (like despite you and penguin listing him as ambiguous i would give better than even chances of it not happening) because i think he's scum anyways, it's still early in the day, and i don't have anyone i'd rather push

i'd rather be voting for a read that i'm somewhat confident about even if i'm not confident that i can get it thorugh to a flip than a slot i'm less confident on that probably will go to a flip

that's just kinda how i approach voting

and like as scum i'm sure i'd have much better / useful / political / likely to get flipped takes than this one

or to say another way: you seem to think i can get a flip on him, and that's scummy
i think i probably can't and because of that i don't think scum-me would be pursuing this right now

~ skitteR

[Bridgeburners]

Hey, I already made that “joke” on like pg 2, get ur own material

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

i swear to god you are singlehandedly undermining every bit of goodwill that shirou flip has bought you

i swear to god i'm not seeing that

i'm reading hYdra posts and i'm seeing maybe some lackluster indeed... and how is that undermining anything? How are people coming to scum or even SK! conclusions based on that?

it makes no sense

also peta, your reluctance to really engage with me this game is starting to ping me. I'd think that town!you wants me to see as town here, given our prior relation.

-seCret

Ico in the span of like three posts you went from:
- gypyx's posting wasnt bad
- well ok if they're bad does that mean they're scummy
- well just because some of those things are scummy are you going to ignore the townie associative?

If in 2885 you're gonna say that 'well some of these things hold up a little but i should be ignoring them because of the town associative', you're basically acknowledging that i actually had a point when confronted with the evidence, and then choosing to ignore it and then omgus retaliating

Do you agree with me that my points have merit? Yes or no?

If no i would like you to explain why not (and explain why you agreed with me in 2885 that '1 or 2 items may hold up a little'), as opposed to just handwaving my points away without responding to the substance

If yes why are you calling my vote bad exactly?

And, also, yes: you do have some good posts with shirou, sure. But that means i should ignore later bad posts by your slot???? (Esp in a game where its entirely possible you're scum and unaffiliated???)

I dont understand your thought process here r.e. me calling gypyx bad - am i wrong (his posts shouldnt be read as scummy at all, which is what you seemed to want to say until you read the case)? Or am i right but i should ignore it (some of his posts *are*! scummy - which is what you said once reading the case)

Like either they're bad but you dont see why you're scummy, or they're scummy, it doesnt make sense to switch from one to the other as you read more about how other people reacted to your slots own posting

Also you ignored peta's case, which made very similar points

[Bridgeburners]

Daaaaaaaaaats i need help with ico

[Bridgeburners]

No this is skit

(I should have signed, sorry)

And yes i would like dats' opinion (just like i've asked him at least 2 other times this game)

I'l respond to your other post, give me a sec

Fuuuuuck

[Bridgeburners]

i'm agreeing that 1 or 2 points *can* be read as scummy in isolation

particularly the fencesit on SS isn't great to say the least - luckily i'm in a unique position to know that actually came from town lol

but it's such a narrow trajectory you have to follow to come to a scum!hYdra conclusion that it's hard for me to believe it's coming from a town perspective
it literally takes away any and all of the points that (should) give you a town!hYdra conclusion

if you think something is scummy, i'd absolutely expect you to pressure it but you can't just cherry pick us here - i won't allow that

-seCret

I wasnt calling out gypyx for fencesitting on ss

I called out gypyx for:
- fencesitting on implo
- underminig my giving townpoints to ss (for similar reasons tjat they had been given to your slot)

(If you're gonna say my points are bad at least do me the courtesy of responding to the things i actually said, not an amalagam of two points shmushed together)

And given that i'm not in your hydra and dont have the perspective of *knowing* you're town, from my pov this is not helpful

Like from *my* pov why am i wrong?

Can you please elaborate why my reasons for scumreading gypyx here are bad? Cuz you didnt, like, address thar part

Or the part where you changed how you my read as i elaborated (i dont think his posting was that bad -> well ok they're bad but not scummy )

And, again, if you want to maintain a townread, dont post scummy things? Can you explain to me why the associative should outweigh scummy posting ? (Esp when you can be scum and unaligned with shirou - you're failing to incorporate rhat part while telling me the associatice is so strong that i should ignore anything scummg you've posted )

And for the last paragraph: i'm pressuring you here? And i'm not sure where you think i'm cherrypicking

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

vla until sunday

[Bridgeburners]

BB just scum then? They are both more then capable players who, as town, always see that we aren't scum here.

Peta + BB? Sure.

Also i forgot to say thia: how is me + peta a real thought????

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

i've said what i wanted to say in my (our) defense, i strongly believe it should be rather easy to come to a town!read on us *despite* what you call scummy posting

Ico, it would kinda help if you responded to my posts and give me something to work with

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

Daaaaaaaaaats i need help with ico

Ok and?

What did you think he was going to say?

Wanted to get an outside check on whether or not i should be concerned by ico's recent posting

[Bridgeburners]

Like, the fact that he's talking about peta + skitter as scum does show that he's either missing pieces of game state or not explaining some far-out theory but I don't see why missing a piece of game state like that would be scum-indicative.

That wasnt inherently my problem

My problem is that he's trying to handwave gypyx's posting in different ways as he reads on and it becomes apparent that people scumread it

First by saying its not really bad
Than by acknowledging its bad but does that inherently mean we should scumread him?
Then saying that even if its scummy the towniness of the associative with shirou shohld handwave it

He's not engaging, and he's using the associative as a get-out-of-jail card even tho his slot's posting is bad and even tho that doesnt inherently clear him

[Bridgeburners]

Also now that panic room is over: i think infinity is townie for him

[Bridgeburners]

It’s clear that most people don’t care that much about this game or I think we wouldn’t be getting scumread

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

this is the most interesting thing that happened in the past how-many hours and the only thing i'd like to ask about but i cannot because s_s said he'll keep the thought to himself

I'll share it eventually.

If I forget, remind me.

Was it along the lines of “i wonder if I can get this miselim if I change my vote”?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Skitter is convinced that infinity is town which I find baffling but like I guess I shouldn’t be shocked by his reads being dogshit

There is concern about implo being unwilling to engage with us (by which I mean skitt) but I (mena) don’t particularly scumread him and I think skitt is like ~conflicted~ there

Isis’ approach to us this game has been and continues to be bizarre for lack of a better word

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Infinity and isis are playing in a very aligned way given that we have no masons or neighbours in the setup

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

This is why you are my only TR pingu

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

(1) there could be daytalk (2) there’s been a night phase where scum could make plans if there isn’t (3) you can play aligned with a scumbuddy without daytalk

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

None of which relates to or is an explanation for you lazily tunnelling is throughout literally the entire game

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

What are you even saying

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I didn’t mean you, or the shitposting non-answer that is 3030

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

3030 “guess we just are playing in an aligned way and I have no explanations to offer as to why that might be”

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

cakez, is there confirmed no daytalk?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I thought it was ambiguous? Meh okay

No daytalk is the only thing like ~wrong~ with this setup and should be fixed in post

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Okay, I still think there could be daytalk just bc it’s basically standard now and because in nomx3’s C9++ we had daytalk even tho after checking that setup we technically shouldn’t have had it

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

“ During the night phase you may talk with your partner(s) here [QuickTopic link].”

This line from the wiki is not strong enough to assume there isn’t daytalk

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Given human error and how standard daytalk is

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9%2B%2B

This has the same caveat and was run w/ daytalk

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Wait nvm I found c9++ and it’s explicitly noted that PTs are open at all times (but I can’t remember if that was a fix added after enquiry or was there from the start)

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=81049

Either way, yes, cakez can answer

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Isn’t it fun how isis, infinity, and S_S all evaporate when asked to substantiate their views

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I love doing that when I’m town

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Oh wait

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

All questions and comments regarding my bridge scumread shall be directed to the office of isis

Sorry I'm snippy I'm sleep deprived and not really interested in having a back-and-forth

U could always just explain why ur outsourcing ur reads to someone who you can’t know the alignment of unless you’re scum

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

my bridge scumread

Contradiction in terms, surely

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Isn’t it fun how isis, infinity, and S_S all evaporate when asked to substantiate their views

-QB

Does it bother you that not all three can be scum?

Does it bother you that S_S is a townslot anyway

Wow more of that quality and good faith content where my “these three slots are scummy” is taken as me saying “these 3 slots are scum”

Also, in my dream world 2 of you are scum and the other is SK but sadly I’m not that good and collectively I have no reason to believe your reads aren’t that bad

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Infinity is probably town though

So skitter says and I’m trusting her on it considering she just rolled him in panic room

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

U could always just explain why ur outsourcing ur reads to someone who you can’t know the alignment of unless you’re scum

It's not that, it's more like my SR of you is based on vague pings and isis has articulated what I'm feeling much better than I ever could

Have you considered the fact that your main scumread being based on “vague pings” might be a pretty shitty way to approach the game?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

...i was in that game

Oh, yeah, right

I didn’t wanna kill u fwiw but they had u down as mason and as I hadn’t read I didn’t wanna choose the kill

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Maybe I’m turning over a new leaf where I patronise people who are incapable of reading me or unwilling to do so instead of screaming

We think the wagon on us is scummotivated but we’re not sure of scum are supporting or leading on it. I’ve also said literally ok Themis page that infinity is probably town as much as I dislike his approach here

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Have you considered the fact that your main scumread being based on “vague pings” might be a pretty shitty way to approach the game?

I don't want to argue mafia theory but I don't think most scumtells are very useful

“I don’t want to argue mafia theory” he said, arguing mafia theory

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I was hoping to find some of that unfabricated frustration that I feel is missing from your gameplay this game.

I don’t think u get to complain about me being toxic in games any more if you’re actively trying to provoke me in order to sort me

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Which is also kind of fucked, I might add, but I’m not really sure how else to interpret that sentence

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Like in the light of you scumreading us for objectively bad reasons ever since early D1 and then broadly refusing to engage on them (I think skitt said there was some explanation today but I missed it and haven’t gone back through yet)

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Maybe I’m turning over a new leaf where I patronise people who are incapable of reading me or unwilling to do so instead of screaming

Hi! I hit that stage around year 2.

I seek only to follow in your footsteps, senpai

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

If she knows that my frustration is from being wrongly read as scum when town, and has been reading my slot as scum since early D1 when not many other people were

How is that not trying to provoke frustration instead of just “draw it out”

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

That’s p much the *explicit* reason why I mentioned the importance of context

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Maybe I’m turning over a new leaf where I patronise people who are incapable of reading me or unwilling to do so instead of screaming

We think the wagon on us is scummotivated but we’re not sure of scum are supporting or leading on it. I’ve also said literally ok Themis page that infinity is probably town as much as I dislike his approach here

-QB

1 ok, i hope you'll be understanding when i have to apply occam's razor here, since you'll only have turning point meta shifts in a fifth of your games or so

I was hoping to find some of that unfabricated frustration that I feel is missing from your gameplay this game.

I don’t think u get to complain about me being toxic in games any more if you’re actively trying to provoke me in order to sort me

-QB

2 I was asking about frustration you might already be feeling, but hadn't commented on. E.g., /*Isis, Infinity, and S_S are all playing wrong, 3 but they are not observing the faults in eachother's behavior either which means we can lose this game even if we have good reads*/ 4 being in your hydra PT but not brought out to the thread yet for me to follow your thoughts. I'm 5 not sure how you're reaching this interpretation where I'm trying to provoke you.

(1) i mean I’m pretty sure there’s a decent subsection of games where I don’t get yell-y about being wrongly scumread while town so your whole occam’s thing is based on p selective meta

(2) okay, i guess that makes more sense

(3) it’s hard to say observing the faults in each other’s behaviour when none of you have reasons in the first place

(4) part of why I’m more chill here than sometimes is bc I’ve just been disengaged due to irl, but also bc I’ve been able to vent about the things annoying me in main thread to skitt in PT

(5) I don’t know how to help you with this other than saying you were looking for frustration in my play coupled with the way you’ve approached our slot all game lends itself to that interpretation. I now see the other way of looking at it tho, so thanks for explaining i guess

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

If she knows that my frustration is from being wrongly read as scum when town, and has been reading my slot as scum since early D1 when not many other people were

How is that not trying to provoke frustration instead of just “draw it out”

-QB

? I was talking specifically about 3061

Yes I realise this now, I thought her comment about looking for frustration was meant in a more general sense than in “that’s what I was looking for specifically with post 3061”

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

So I guess maybe you'd have to ask Infinity why his vote moved.

To which the answer was “vague gutpings and isis can explain it better than I ever could”

r u beginning to see the problem here?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

the best reason to vote you happened mid/early day 1.

Which was..?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Infinity's support is important to me. I'm not actually confident enough that I would dayvig skiddeR through the objectives of Infinity and a couple other townreads, even if immediately after some BB posts I might feel that way. So I guess maybe you'd have to ask Infinity why his vote moved.

This game by reads have been a mess of shifting gut reads that I don't really understand because I don't usually play mafia like this, so I've never really had these types of gut reads before

This is why my reads keep changing I'm sorry

Please do not trust them

Wow so interesting that you’re simultaneously voting us and raving about how shitty your reads are this game

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Here’s a thought: maybe if you have no good basis for voting

And are aware of that

To the point that you’re actively asking people not to trust your reads

You shouldn’t be voting??

*head exploding gif*

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Imagine thinking I’ve been here enough to know

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

VOTE: implosion

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

If we get quickhammer we for that our whole wagon sus af

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Cakez wouldn’t answer which makes me strongly believe there’s been an error and scum do have daytalk

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I PM’d and he said I could say he wouldn’t answer, to be clear

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Link. Your fucking. Posts.

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

As skitter isn’t here and I get to be in charge of our votes for now;

VOTE: schiavetto

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I stand by 495 coming from scum significantly more often than down, and the vast swathe of excuses and fuck all just to arrive with a convenient logic for sussing the top wagon (but not actually laying a vote down) in 3148 is scummy

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

1090
441
511
2750

[Bridgeburners]

Cose da fare:
-reread both hydras, both of them keep doing things i like & things that make me go huh? &i need to make a more concerted effort to place them
-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in

Good times, good times. anyway:

-iso peta, not super thrilled w/ them since they subbed in

Did some soulsearching here and I think my biggest beef with the slot was some of the sloppiness on entrance--stuff like 1666, 1714 and 1584 felt...not quite misreppy but like, unpleasantly shallow? the main bits were the way they spoke abt inf's progression on imp & esp. the comment about having thought aaron wasn't garnering much attention while speccing. In hindsight I think my concern w/ that was mostly me nitpicking--a lot of those earlier posts are p consistent with a world where town!peta subs in fresh off speccing & is trying to keep momentum up imo. None of it really holds up to a cui bono for scum!peta either imo, considering how yesterday ended (people had already called out AF at various points throughout thread, 1712's "may I present a third option" is weird coming from scum who doesn't really have any reason to position themselves as the person heading up that alternative). I'm also a fan of the progression on Phoebe--I think peta's interactions w the slot late in phase D1 felt solve-y, and the frustration coming through in their D2 interactions w/ Phoebe is well justified from town (considering that Bridgers is literally making things up but we'll get to that)

Cose da fare:
-reread both hydras, both of them keep doing things i like & things that make me go huh? &i need to make a more concerted effort to place them

Starting w/ Phoebe, who i think is probably the worse offender here. Earlygame i kind of put them on this shelf bc like... otoh, shitposty to a fault (not even quality shitposts, bar has never been lower) but otoh there were some sprinklings of good that made me want to keep them around. like, i don't think their SR on isis early on was all that bad, and while i've personally lightened on isis (atvl, i can't place her as a partner with anyone on the playerlist), the SK take in 1090 was inch resting--to the point where i honestly kind of wish they'd revisited it, even if it's probably just maf sussing out opposing scum.

I feel like people have remarked on the head dissonance enough that I won't harp on that too much, but going back through Phoebe's D1 in the context of our two flips is Not Great. 441 from Phoeb with the whole "separate tier" thing just straight up feels like someone trying to get out of having to place a read on their partner, and the dialoguing btwn NS and both bridgeheads D1 around why they read e/o the way they do stands a decent chance of being s/s i think.

Looking back, I also think 511 from Bridgers telegraphs Aaron flipping green &is probs TMI. Bridgers (like most of the game tbf) had a lot of professed TRs yday--afaict, Isis was main SR, ben was a concession, and they had scipio town'd before peta subbed in--but it strikes me as sketch to play dumb about it, which is largely what happened yday and by all indications is where the push on peta is coming from. I'd feel maybe better about Bridgers on Peta if not for how much of the case seems to come down to "You were wrong (but nobody else on Aaron was)". I feel like it's p easy for scum!Phoebe to scapegoat peta here while just ignoring the other people reading Aaron's slot. 2750 is less interested in actually making sense of a wagon that you two already said you had trouble with, and more with putting someone on the chopping block. Also fwiw, I don't see how Peta's read on mirrors mine on Imp's.

On to Shy--I think I mostly still like this. Atvl, I think their D1 holds up to scrutiny better than the other hydra. Interactions w/ Shirou rule out a redflip p cleanly imo, but even beyond that I think their posts lean overwhelmingly toward trying to sort folks.

[Bridgeburners]

You don’t want to step to me, schiavetto

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Especially not when you’re citing posts like 2750 which is literally a meme pagetop from pingüino

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Hey datisi, how would you feel about voting schiavetto?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

2570

[Bridgeburners]

Oh cool, you’re here

I haven’t read ico since yesterday but gypyx’s posting was god awful enough that I think the slot could be scum

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Yesterday as in D1

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Are you feeling more open to voting schiavetto now?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Dope

[Bridgeburners]

How many do we need for an elim here? 6?

Pingüino, can i interest you in a schiavetto wagon?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

gypyx’s posting was god awful enough

i mean yes it was but like ico was townie and i was hoping for a reality check from you there

Yeah sorry, I feel super ambiguous, and the fact that the big TR reason for the slot was *checks notes* associatives with shirou who is like top 5 scum on site and is particularly good at faking associatives... makes me feel not better about the gypyx voting

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

You don’t want to step to me, schiavetto

-QB

Didn't think you were into that kind of thing anyway ;o

Fr though, jokes aside I do apologize about the lack of links. I don't apologize for the post though - feel free to like, address it instead of coming at me for formatting & activity

The links are fine, that comment was more directed about the hit dog hollers thing, but was probably a bit overly aggressive as I did promise skitt before we started that this would be a Chill Game(tm)

Also yeh I’m gonna get to the bits that I can address, but it’s less your particular arguments that make you scummy and more your overall behaviour and positioning within the gamestate

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Having had like, considerably more to say about us than anyone else and then... still insisting that you’re gonna vote implo is not a good look tho

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

We're not doing Schiavetto,

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

lol pingu the wind is calling again

schiavetto

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

ok but like i'm talking about ico's posting, not shirou's

like even if you assume daytalk and assume shirou literally told ico to attack him there, i still don't think the posts would've looked organic/townie as they did

unless shirou was feeding him line for line but i don't think he has that kinda skill wrt ico, y'know,,,

Basically— maybe? I would, i think, have reread by that point

But like the dragon has a decent scumrange, no? Do you not think if they were discussing it he could have faked it? What was it that seemed unfakeable about it? (If you already explained then just tell me to stop being lazy and to look in ur iso)

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Lim in my poe with me

No

I have no interest in working with you this game as a result of your own actions and behaviour

*shrug*

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Like maybe you can talk to skitter when she’s back but in the meantime I’m forcing this schiavetto wagon through if I can and I don’t care what your feelings are on the matter

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

You’re very much still in the pool I want dead yourself, but I think we need to flip scum first before I can sell town on doing you

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

the slot is town

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

my whole case is more-or-less "last time i saw scum!ico, he looked hella fake, became my top gutscumread within 48 hours (and made me snap out of a wrong tunnel i was in the *entire* game up to that point), and became my top pick for scum after the next flip, and he don't look fake here, *especially* when you consider he attacc scum"

Okay well in the meantime we can kill schiavetto and then pick up the conversation again tomorrow

At this point if schiavetto!scum then I’m probably going to demand isis tomorrow unless skitt talks me down

Or we could burn a lim on the NM slot if we have 2 scumflips by that point

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

What does that even mean

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Why is Schiavetto scum? Are you just running a brutish omgus algorithm all day?
I don't think schi's reasons to sus BB are particularly good but it's very believable he believes them

No, it’s because schiavetto has been a non-slot lurker since middle of D1, has done nothing, taken no stances, has had no interest in solving the game, avoided and produced for most of D2, and upon finally turning up has a convenient pile of words on why the top wagon is scum but FOR SOME REASON decides to keep voting the other top wagon in spite of that

it is a trajectory that screams scum, and a pattern of behaviour that does the same

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Schi was doing well when shirou repped in so shirou should have been less entropy/impact oriented coming in if that's the partner(s)

I think how shirou plays this has little to absolutely nothing to do with his partner’s positioning on repping in

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Other than he’d probably hardbus if someone was clearly going down

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

your like not putting effort into this at all

Ahh, your own approach to sorting out slot, I see

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Our* fucking autocorrect

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

1 This is a towncase

Or just a description of what s_s protege's look like

2 Schiavetto has 250 posts. Ever.

(1) it isn’t

(2) so what

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Also, talking of

Hey S_S how would you feel about voting scum today?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

@peta, you too

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I feel like ur not gonna like it when I say I think ur town lol

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Which would be understandable tbf

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Ugh I have film club so I’ll just explain: I’m townreading you because of how you’re just like plain sheeping me here, and I think that’s probably more likely to be town!you than scum!you, because while I guess scum!you might just think “oh free town lim and mena takes the heat tomorrow” the like, no offence, laziness of it also probably makes it very hard for you to survive later?

I’m worried that you’re going to take the townread as being like, and instrumental thing, when it’s not

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

It does not contain a typo

I was anticipating you feeling paranoid about me townreading you right after you did something i asked you to do

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

your like not putting effort into this at all

Ahh, your own approach to sorting out slot, I see

-QB

I can develop empathy for how you misread me in some of my games. It would be more enjoyable to play with you if you had some more often.

It's maybe not the best game to remark on that since I've had a dismissive posture towards your slot at times this game. But it's our of respect for your perceived ability to play scum and how entertaining my thoughts on the angles where you're town make me vulnerable to you making that the only truth cause like. I'm actually really bad at reading people I've engaged with, a lot of the time, it's a weird thing about my playstyle I've mentioned in other games occasionally. My peanut gallery reads are my best reads.

But anyway, telling me I didn't do effort is unfair. I guess it would be equivalent to calling me talented, since it would go that if I have a wrong read in you, I have not set forth any effort, because I'm talented enough that it would result in reading you correctly. But anyway it is kind of grating to hear when I have been considering worlds where usher you towards eLo and beyond it, all game, and have reread several of skitters posts deciding which direction they nudge, and generally have been trying to work for a vote that's better than rand this phase. I think I'd be bothered less being called bad

I mean if you want to get into this more broadly then have you considered that voting us for no reason/for unsubstantiated reasons is not a good way to make me amenable to working with you or to trusting you. Coupled with the fact that you will often unvote and revote and it's very unclear what you actually think and if you're serious about a vote (in which case it can be addressed) or if it's a meme (in which case it can't) and in either case it makes it difficult-to-borderline-impossible to actually engage with you. Which is doubly the case when you've been calling our slot scum since

long

before I think that take would be plausible for you to have.

Like I don't care so much if you scumread our slot later into the game for X, Y, Z reasons even if I think they're bad reasons. I do object to you dismissing half my posting as "lol mena caught scum trying to do X" which is what it's felt like throughout this entire game.

maybe I am lacking empathy along the line, but I feel like you know or should know that the way you've been interacting with our slot this game is not something I enjoy at all, and the fact that you chose to do so anyway is like... okay, cool, thanks a bunch. it certainly doesn't make me feel like trying to get inside your head to figure out why you would do that, especially when it doesn't even seem conducive to sorting me and seems mostly conducive to irritating me or making the game less fun for me to play.

[Bridgeburners]

I should not play when I'm in a weird headspace, I get overly aggro

Starting w/ Phoebe, who i think is probably the worse offender here. Earlygame i kind of put them on this shelf bc like... otoh, shitposty to a fault (1 not even quality shitposts, bar has never been lower) but otoh there were some sprinklings of good that made me want to keep them around. like, i don't think their SR on isis early on was all that bad, and while i've personally lightened on isis (atvl, 2 i can't place her as a partner with anyone on the playerlist), the SK take in 1090 was inch resting--to the point where 3 i honestly kind of wish they'd revisited it, even if it's probably just maf sussing out opposing scum.

4 I feel like people have remarked on the head dissonance enough that I won't harp on that too much, 5 but going back through Phoebe's D1 in the context of our two flips is Not Great. 441 from Phoeb with the whole "separate tier" thing just straight up feels like someone trying to get out of having to place a read on their partner, and the dialoguing btwn NS and both bridgeheads D1 around why they read e/o the way they do stands a decent chance of being s/s i think.

Looking back, 6 I also think 511 from Bridgers telegraphs Aaron flipping green &is probs TMI. 7 Bridgers (like most of the game tbf) had a lot of professed TRs yday--afaict, Isis was main SR, ben was a concession, and they had scipio town'd before peta subbed in--but 8 it strikes me as sketch to play dumb about it, which is largely what happened yday and by all indications is where the push on peta is coming from. 9 I'd feel maybe better about Bridgers on Peta if not for how much of the case seems to come down to "You were wrong (but nobody else on Aaron was)". I feel like it's p easy for scum!Phoebe to scapegoat peta here while just ignoring the other people reading Aaron's slot. 10 2750 is less interested in actually making sense of a wagon that you two already said you had trouble with, and more with putting someone on the chopping block. Also fwiw, I don't see how Peta's read on mirrors mine on Imp's.

(1) this is clearly a lie

(2) why

(3) what, you mean after the like 3 pages of discussion about it which led to basically everyone going "yeah, maybe you have a point but can we get back to focussing on groupscum pls?" and me going "yeah sure"?

(4) why do you care about our dissonance and how is it relevant to you reading us

(5) skitter is literally one of the best scum players on site, I'm not terrible, and shirou is too. are you seriously suggesting that we go, collectively, with a fencesitty read on our partner? why would we do that KNOWING it looks bad, and when shirou is strong enough as scum that it would make much more sense to just TR him and trust him to avoid being at risk of elim. if you think we knowingly decided to fencesit on our partner, come up with a plausible sounding explanation for why we would do that. how does that benefit our wincon in any way?

(6) this is literally just an assertion with no reasoning behind it. why does that look TMIy?

(7) p sure this is just not true, we've had a compromise list but I don't think we've at any point been dominated by thinking people are town vs just not being sure where scum are.

(8) where and how are we playing dumb about anything

(9) u can follow this up with skitter I wasn't really following, my main takeaway was that it seemed like peta was overreacting and I'm still somewhat sus of him

(10) again, I'll let skitt handle this

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Having had like, considerably more to say about us than anyone else and then... still insisting that you’re gonna vote implo is not a good look tho

-QB

I said straight up @ start of phase that I was going to be looking at you, Shy & Peta. 1 If you want a wall on why I think Shy is town, sure I can carve out some time and lay that all out, but red-to-green on Peta & null-to-red on you felt like better time investments. Unfortunate, sure, but it's where I was at!

As for the vote, that's fair. In a perfect world, I get two votes and you both go today - 2 hanging onto imp though bc I've had more time to sit with it & the only things that've come close at all to giving me second thoughts are this from Ico and 3122 from Isis not long ago, but even that doesn't go much further than "I wonder what they see that I don't see?"
I posted my current thoughts on you. I feel strongly about it (about as strongly as I feel abt town!peta, go figure), but I'm open to seeing how that ages.

(1) I could, quite literally, not care less about walls. insofar as they mean anything, they mean +scum for the slot making them

(2) why are the only things giving you second thoughts posting from 3rd party slots and not anything to do with implo himself. how much is this even your read.

finally -- if you're basically pretty happy with either of us and we seem easier (I guess not rn tho, given infinity and isis) why weren't you happy for us to go? and if you were, why not vote?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

@isis, basically, I was looking forward to playing with you, but idk what else u were expecting from me when ur predominant posting towards me has been along the lines of "lol mena is outed scum" or how you want me to interact with you or show empathy to you if that's your baseline for our engagements

if that's all been memes, it wasn't clear to me and has made the game actively less fun for me to have to put up with

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I've tried to be civil and not to yell at you for it but I've certainly wanted to. I don't mean for this to come across too harshly either, and I don't think it is, but that's where I'm at

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

can we vig N_M tonight

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Heya i'm kinda back, and will catch up more fully tonight

But i just want to say: ico is not solving. He's coming in every morning, making a flurry of posts, and then leaving. He is utterly lacking the drive/motivation to solve that i associate with town-him, and he, to put it quite bluntly, is not trying to solve the game. He's doing the bare minimum to 'be present' but isnt looking for scum

Whenever people criticize his slot he falls back on 'but i cant bw partnered with shirou!!!!1!', while ignoring the part where this game can be multiball and that associative should not be fully clearing - but he's acting like it is, and like he is absolved from all other scumhunting and cannot be considered scummy in any other context because of it

Now, imagine you're scum and have a great looking associative with your flipped partner- what would you be doing differently than ico is doung here? I imagine that your play would have many of the same elements of ico's, namely: coasting off of the associatve (check) and using it to absolve your slot of anything scummy it may have done otherwise (check)

And gypyx is awol, and when he is here his posting ia gross

(Working out the dissonance + need to actually catch up before i move our vote etc)

~ skitter

[Bridgeburners]

VOTE: N_M

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

showing flashes of actually giving a shit

Let’s not exaggerate

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Why do we think dats wasn’t the N1 kill?

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Oh okay, makes sense I guess

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

I think it’s not unlikely that it’s just N_M and sechyd

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Isis is now also a fairly strong TR

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

Come on now S_S, don’t say ridiculous things

-QB

[Bridgeburners]

@mena, i assume you haven't yet (re)read ico d1 interactions w shirou?

-QB