TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[Isis]

Votecount 4.3

• Aristophanes (He/Him)
  (1) - Ydrasse
  
• Ydrasse
  (She/Her)
  (1) - Aristophanes
  
• xofelf (They/Them)
  (0)
  
• DeasVail (He/Him)
  (0)
  
• The
  Bulge (Any/Any)
  (0)
  
• Adorable (She/Her)
  (0)
  
• xRECKONERx (He/Him)
  (0)

Not Voting (5): xofelf, DeasVail, The Bulge, Adorable, xRECKONERx
With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to make a decision.
(expired on 2021-03-14 02:00:00)

---

[DeasVail]

One of my bigger reasons for suspecting Reck is that during Day 1 there were many posts like this where he makes explicit references to his team's involvement. For example, securing their assistance in reading Hectic, and talk of his team yelling at him for various things.

Example: Reason for changing vote to RCE.

eh okay, having it pointed out that i'm falling for "too scummy to be scum" + having my team yelling ab the claim being bad is enough.

VOTE: RCE

if this flips town though i s2g i've got some fucking receipts to bring tomorrow

The difference between then and now is quite... apparent? I don't expect teams to necessarily be super involved. Throughout the team mafias I have participated in I have seen everything from extensive team involvement to nothing whatsoever. And I do expect that there will be changes in team involvement throughout a game but from having his team "yelling" at Reck about various things to..... hardly anything seems a bit odd. Because Day 1 Reck implies a team that is quite invested and involved but then as we get to the pointy end and are a few miselims in, I would think that is even greater reason to get the team involved. Especially on a slot like Ari. Yet there is no mention of that and I am suspicious of it.

Since most of the game seems to think Reck is town I want to discuss this because I think that's a dangerous assumption now that he's not mason (and I thought he was the most likely). I am not entirely convinced Adorable is town and have pangs of paranoia there so if anyone has a passionate argument there, let me know, but I don't actually find Reck's play in recent days to be especially town in any way?

I also separately feel like Ydrasse is scum because I think the "bursty" style of posting at times when she feels she needs to in order to look town and not much otherwise is more indicative of scum. I think there are lots of posts where she pretends to believe something more than she actually does.

Best example imo:

VOTE: deasvail

let us ride bravely onto this wagon brothers

Because later posts demonstrated that Ydrasse never even really thought I was scum. And what does she even think of me now? A town-Ydrasse would surely be thinking of me-scum as a strong possibility here (talk of Ari lining up Adorable and her as elims, Reck/Ari being an unlikely scumpair) but she doesn't seem interested in me at all at the moment. I can't help but think she's just waiting to see what will be well tolerated socially within the game and going with that.
But as always I have doubts. I respect Hectic's townread on Ydrasse. I don't know if Ydrasse as scum goes all in on an Ari-town "scumslip". At the same time though, it feels out of character that Ydrasse is coming across as so "sure" of it (other posts by Ydrasse are filled with a lot more doubt). Also the anger about the massclaim seems entirely misplaced, especially if it has caught scum, (which Ydrasse awkwardly points out in 2691, as if to try and cover her tracks).

Now is the time where I'd really like to talk through reads and who the viable scumteams are. With the knowledge that xofelf is mason, hindsight says that massclaim may have been better the next day to better gauge Reck's alignment, but I also appreciate the greater clarity I feel now that massclaim has occurred and I do genuinely think that any frustration with the fact that it happened is overblown, because it honestly is unlikely to greatly alter kill targets (assuming that Bulge is town)

[The Bulge]

I'm glad everyone else thought it was reck as well haha whew

but yea I'm definitely willing to reconsider my reck townread. I was suspicious of his early play and I haven't really thoroughly read through it now with context of the rest of the game. plus xoftown narrows my PoE significantly enough that I'm fine reopening other avenues. that's probably the best slot to have claimed mason tbh, I would have probably been stuck on them for a while today if not.

[The Bulge]

sorry I kept prioritizing other stuff these last few nights, conftown is lame etc etc.

[The Bulge]

sorry I kept prioritizing other stuff these last few nights, conftown is lame etc etc.

[xRECKONERx]

It ain't me. Idk how much I can comment on the other games but uh let's just say my team is basically checked out for the most part, and I've been checked out of theirs. It was much easier to get insights earlier on than it is now. If you have specific insights you want from them I can ask but I don't think that's the point of DVs post.

[xRECKONERx]

I actually still find Ydrasses pointing out of Ari's TMI really compelling. I also have been trying to reason out the NKs and haven't found much, because people I'm suspicious of have been dying every night, which is fine by me to an extent, but I have an evolving theory on the NKs that I need to post in full once I'm not fighting with my phone keyboard

[xRECKONERx]

@DV I am confused by your point though. My team has naturally lost interest over time, which is just how things go. Why is it alignment indicative that they were active D1 but got less active as the game goes on? Like what's the scum motivation behind them STOPPING? The fact my team fell off seems like it would be viewed as being more town indicative since they were actually engaged at the start of TM and then stopped paying attention organically. If I were scum I could've kept faking it very easily

[xRECKONERx]

EBWOP since UT just confirmed I could say this, like, you can mark a pretty obvious timeline of their activity in Discord from being engaged to whoops both Cheetory and Shea died and sorta took a vacation

[Adorable]

After the mass claim this has made me reevaluate. I have been suspicious of Ari today and DV also made some good points saying he was wondering if it is Ydrasse/Reckoner and I never even thought about this. I don't like how Ari says it's me/Ydrasse because that team makes no sense. It's like as if Ari is saying scum Ydrasse defended scum Adorable on day 1 and continues to defend her on day 1, scum Ydrasse votes scum beeboy and refuses to defend scum beeboy.

[DeasVail]

@DV I am confused by your point though. My team has naturally lost interest over time, which is just how things go. Why is it alignment indicative that they were active D1 but got less active as the game goes on? Like what's the scum motivation behind them STOPPING? The fact my team fell off seems like it would be viewed as being more town indicative since they were actually engaged at the start of TM and then stopped paying attention organically. If I were scum I could've kept faking it very easily

I agree that team involvement is probably in general more likely to occur earlier (less game to read, more excitement about the TM concept) than later.
My main thought from it was that it made the day 1 stuff seem more likely faked/exaggerated. Your posting made it seem as if your team was extremely invested. I think as scum it makes a lot of sense to pretend that one’s team is involved and giving reads (and for a team to even help out by giving fake reads) and the sheer contrast between day 1 and now made me think that you were overstating your team’s involvement all along.

[DeasVail]

After the mass claim this has made me reevaluate. I have been suspicious of Ari today and DV also made some good points saying he was wondering if it is Ydrasse/Reckoner and I never even thought about this. I don't like how Ari says it's me/Ydrasse because that team makes no sense. It's like as if Ari is saying scum Ydrasse defended scum Adorable on day 1 and continues to defend her on day 1, scum Ydrasse votes scum beeboy and refuses to defend scum beeboy.

Adorable, why do you think scum would try hard to defend beeboy?

Also, if you were scum, why would your buddy bus you? You were never dead in the water like beeboy was

[DeasVail]

Also why was Ydrasse so upset about the claiming when she thought xofelf was scum???

[DeasVail]

Bulge's reaction to the claim: Oh good! I don't have to think xof is scum anymore.

Ydrasse's reaction to the claim:

Spoiler:

[Adorable]

After the mass claim this has made me reevaluate. I have been suspicious of Ari today and DV also made some good points saying he was wondering if it is Ydrasse/Reckoner and I never even thought about this. I don't like how Ari says it's me/Ydrasse because that team makes no sense. It's like as if Ari is saying scum Ydrasse defended scum Adorable on day 1 and continues to defend her on day 1, scum Ydrasse votes scum beeboy and refuses to defend scum beeboy.

Adorable, why do you think scum would try hard to defend beeboy?

Also, if you were scum, why would your buddy bus you? You were never dead in the water like beeboy was

No one hard defended beeboy. I consider hard defending is when a player refuses that player to be eliminated saying that there is nothing scummy about the player and would also try to get votes on another player. That is hard defending.

If I were scum I would think my buddy would bus me for being suspected by other players.

[xofelf]

Also why was Ydrasse so upset about the claiming when she thought xofelf was scum???

Bulge's reaction to the claim: Oh good! I don't have to think xof is scum anymore.

Ydrasse's reaction to the claim:

Spoiler:

See, I've been wondering the same thing. Most everybody else reacted to it in the way I'd expect, but not her.

That being said though DV, you know I get suspicious any time you're sinking your teeth into something, you know that right? You being stubborn I expect, you questioning things I expect, but you being accusatory always gives me pause. And I can't tell if it's just it feels so out of your nature or just it's what happens when you're playing mafia vs LSGs. It was like that time you were asked at FTC to insult all the jurors, it just felt so unnatural when you tried and you didn't really try either.

[DeasVail]

I think that it might be at least partly a difference between mafia and LSGs. In LSGs, my instinct is to appease and I think you are right that this is to some degree true of me in life generally.
I think that in mafia it is necessary to work with other people. However you also KNOW that there are people in the game that are definitely there to manipulate you and no amount of appeasement is going to get them on your side because they just plain aren’t. So my usual LSG and life strategy does not work! I can’t convert mafia to town! (Well, between you and me I’m working on it but I haven’t been successful yet)

This game may be a little different for me too because the last couple of mafia games I played I struggled to really sink my teeth into and so I put a bit of effort into doing differently in this one. The early pressure of adorable and RCE kind of felt slightly unnatural to me but was also how I wanted to play and I felt comfortable getting into that “mode”, I guess.

I would probably most compare my more recent posts to LSG confessional posting. I talk about things that I see that don’t seem quite right and the advantage is that I have other people here to bounce my thoughts off.

[DeasVail]

Also I love the jury insulting reference <3

[Ydrasse]

i already explained why i was upset about the mass claim?? it wasn’t necessary to do it then when we could have like... if xof didn’t get ran up today, and didn’t have to claim, then tonight the mafia would’ve had to decide whether to try and hit for the mason (which they have been fine to leave bulge alone all game!!!) or not and would’ve given us a potential save

like yeah cool i get to reset on a wrong read earlier but... also if xof got ran up and claimed then at least we would’ve gotten something out of them getting wagoned and seeing who was going where/with it, that’s what’s the irritating me about this whole thing

also wrt confidence: i’m confident at this point on ari being scum and i’m not going to back down on that at this point, i’ve gotten bit too many times when i feel sure on a read and then start speculating and wondering, there are too many things atp for me to ignore from him that are scummy. what i AM unsure about is who he’s partnered with but right now i’m just... not thinking about that and taking it one step at a time because i know he’s scum and that’s the most important thing to deal w fmpov

[xRECKONERx]

@DV I am confused by your point though. My team has naturally lost interest over time, which is just how things go. Why is it alignment indicative that they were active D1 but got less active as the game goes on? Like what's the scum motivation behind them STOPPING? The fact my team fell off seems like it would be viewed as being more town indicative since they were actually engaged at the start of TM and then stopped paying attention organically. If I were scum I could've kept faking it very easily

I agree that team involvement is probably in general more likely to occur earlier (less game to read, more excitement about the TM concept) than later.
My main thought from it was that it made the day 1 stuff seem more likely faked/exaggerated. Your posting made it seem as if your team was extremely invested. I think as scum it makes a lot of sense to pretend that one’s team is involved and giving reads (and for a team to even help out by giving fake reads) and the sheer contrast between day 1 and now made me think that you were overstating your team’s involvement all along.

I mean, they were extremely invested, now they're not. *shrug* I was similarly more invested in their games and now am not. I can't prove to you that the natural progression of their involvement with the game is as I've stated it is, so this is a weird thing to hang your hat on

[xofelf]

V/LA

I'm so sorry, idk how soon I'll be back in this. But the moment i can be, I promise.

[xRECKONERx]

V/LA

I'm so sorry, idk how soon I'll be back in this. But the moment i can be, I promise.

<3 Take your time.

[Aristophanes]

I'll be back tomorrow, sorry

[DeasVail]

like yeah cool i get to reset on a wrong read earlier but... also if xof got ran up and claimed then at least we would’ve gotten something out of them getting wagoned and seeing who was going where/with it, that’s what’s the irritating me about this whole thing

Did you get much from the other wagons in town that have happened in this game?

[DeasVail]

I can't prove to you that the natural progression of their involvement with the game is as I've stated it is, so this is a weird thing to hang your hat on

I am aware that you can’t prove it, but you also can’t prove that you’re town. It is a thing that I have been thinking, and I’m not sure how it’s weird!