Mini Normal 2196 - Game Over

[Dannflor]

hello

I have dnd this afternoon but I'll read and catchup this evening

[Dannflor]

*crickets*

[Dannflor]

hey dgb

[Dannflor]

I will as soon as I've finished reading

how are you reading my slot?

[Dannflor]

is there literally nothing else going on in this game

[Dannflor]

because I feel like that should tip you off about my alignment

[Dannflor]

I'll stop being lazy and finish reading soon but like, come on

[Dannflor]

I mean I understand it's not the most convincing coming from the slot who is being wagoned and who hasn't even read everything yet

but the fact that there's no even like... side discussions going on, or even people asking me questions or telling me to look out for certain things as I catch up just makes it feel like everyone is complacent with the game state

and that's not the best sign

[Dannflor]

albeit it's the weekend and maybe weird timing but... just weird

why DGB, Klick?

[Dannflor]

quick impressions up through page 13

I think the interactions with entrapta are probably town indicative for april? The progression from maybe scum to town to back to scum after the replace out feels very natural. And I did get the sense April was genuinely trying to sort the slot. They reacted surprisingly mellow towards the early vote on them which I think is town indicative as well? Not a super strong read here as I don't think the slot has done much else alignment indicative for them. The IC claim is obviously fake but that's par for the course for april

HypSoc's #290 I thought was scummy at first but after dwelling on it for a bit I think I've come around to the opposite opinion. It felt like the type of post scum makes to get analysis out there that really isn't all that useful in the end, especially because taking April's IC claim seriously is dubious at best. But I don't expect HypSoc to know that necessarily and spending *so* much time analyzing it leans towards transparent town that latched onto something rather than scum trying to appear useful. I have to say I didn't like their "your slot has been the most suspected so far" post on my replacing in though because it like... absolves all responsibility off of them and like prods me in a super passive way. HypSoc, I'm interested in how you've been reading my slot/my predecessors and what you think of the people wagoning me. From your ISO it's hard to tell what stance you have exactly on me.

[Dannflor]

DGB is a viable wagon and its basically done nothing but say we should flip you.

unfortunately if this is all there is I'm not sure that it's at all scum indicative for DGB

[Dannflor]

bugspray and Alice are light town pings

the pop ins from miniMegabyte from the early pages are very scummy

[Dannflor]

btw I'm willing to bet most people on my wagon are town, I might prove myself wrong with that as I gather more reads, but in situations where a townie is widely scum read and run up with little to no resistance, it's not because scum are actively campaigning for the elimination, but because town are and scum don't want to get in the way. I'd look for scum more in the slots that are either soft defending me or that are open to my wagon but voting/pushing elsewhere, with maybe like 1 scum on my wagon at its peak. I've just been looking at the VCs and I see scummy slots like Mini vote parked on bugspray while I'm being run up and I don't think that's a coincidence. The lack of counter wagon also probably points towards scum just lying low and not really doing anything. After all, with the game state as it appears to be idk why they'd have to do anything. and leading the charge of a town wagon D1 and taking the cred damage for doing so is really only something I could see a scum player with the caliber of April doing (not that I think April is scum here)

[Dannflor]

I don't think clidd is noticeably trying to drive any agenda by obviously not cohering exactly to his reads list

I mean he's obviously trying to fish for reactions or do *something* that he thinks will help solve the game

this feels like a case of getting side tracked by a townie doing outrageous things (my favorite nsg quote)

clidd, why are you townreading mini?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Rlotus

[Dannflor]

gretchen #594 is gross but that might mean town

[Dannflor]

town reading HypoSoc is probably premature, I need a lot more from them

don't particularly like April not being around, nor their self vote in #520. It doesn't feel borne out of emotion nor out of driving a point/read home like I'd expect from town!April but meh

but can be explained by April simply being disengaged from this game

[Dannflor]

*if* there are scum on me right now, which could be a pretty big if, I think it's probably only 1 in [gretchen, april]

any other scum are probably off wagon

[Dannflor]

wait actually

@MOD is April supposed to be listed voting twice on the VC

- Fixed, thank you.

[Dannflor]

Dannflor has come in and done their best to look townie, but they've got nothing to work with. Klick does seem really eager to spread their votes around though.

geriantm can you explain further what you mean here? Are you scum reading Klick for this? Town reading me? I'm having trouble getting a grasp on what your stances are in this game because a lot of your posts feel like just straight up observations

[Dannflor]

bugspray has the type of tone that I just have a really hard time not reading as towny

posts like #566 feels like the type of very simple/flippant justification that town is more likely to throw out there on a whim than scum. granted I don't know bugspray at all as a player but I'm pocketed

something like

[bugspray, clidd]
[alice, dgb, Klick]
[gretchen, rlotus]
[amelie]
[mini, geraintm]

this is a very loose approximation of where I'm at right now. April excluded until I get a chance to properly interact with her. I'm sort of in a weird position where I think a lot of the people currently pushing my slot are town and scum lie somewhere in the people defending me. However, I'm thinking the slots that have been hard defending more lean more towards town [rlotus, klick] for example while scum is *most likely* to lie in slots that are either soft defending me or not taking a strong stance either way, for example [mini, geraintm]

VOTE: geraintm

[Dannflor]

no one to me feels like they are obvious scum

also while I feel this is true, I'm not getting the sense that everyone just has reasons to be town

there are a number of slots that I'm quite simply just luke-warm on and it's disappointing to me that no major wagons have been built on them to try and change that fact today

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Alive

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Alice*

[Dannflor]

gretchen #594 is gross but that might mean town

what do you mean?

I mean the speculating based on replace out is kinda dubious from a playing mafia as ethically as possible standpoint

but it also feels like the type of reachy argument town goes for more often than not

idk maybe I believe too much in the good of people that mafia would stray away from using angle shooting arguments like that, or that people wouldn't argue like that if they didn't really believe in it

[Dannflor]

gerain sr on klick makes sense but could come from either perspective

mm also looks scummy

I would wagon both of these slots but I'd wait on MM until they get a replacement I guess

[Dannflor]

HypSoc, I'm interested in how you've been reading my slot/my predecessors and what you think of the people wagoning me. From your ISO it's hard to tell what stance you have exactly on me.

I am not reading your slot as particularly scummy, but I am willing to flip your slot based on what it would reveal for others. I never was on that wagon.

That comment was in response to you crickets, because action WAS waiting on you. I was trying to give you an immediate summary so we could move on, rather than wait for 25 pages of analysis.

would flipping my slot reveal anything particularly for you?

what are your strongest stances/reads in the game right now?

[Dannflor]

would flipping my slot reveal anything particularly for you?

what are your strongest stances/reads in the game right now?

The two questions are related.

MiniMegabyte is my strongest scum read, and if your slot is scum, that would confirm it even more. I would rather vote of MM directly (which I am), but because most discussion has been on your slot, it would be informative. Nor have I gotten the impression that your slot is particularly important, if it turns out you are town, based on how the other players in your slot have reacted.

My strongest stance is believing Alice's claim. I take claims very seriously, and I've determined it's a believable one. I have also determined it is important to strongly and visibly show my support for this particular role claim, because players reactions to my declarations help inform my reads, and because player activity can influence night kills.

Can you walk me through why my scum flip means MM is more likely to be scum?

[Dannflor]

At first I got scum feeling from HypoSoc in the way he was trusting in April's claim, because I thought it was clear that it wasn't a serious claim. It was as if he is scum that knows April is town. Then, several other people seemed to be taking April's claim seriously, so maybe not out of the ordinary after all? He is now doubling down on believing the claim, so maybe it is just scum.

idk if I'm getting the same impressions from the doubling down

[Dannflor]

HypoSoc, what would you say if I could point you to games of both alignments by April where she's fake claimed IC? The only reason I'm not taking it seriously is because I know the history of that player and they do things like fake claim IC often

It's funny because I'm also scum reading MM for soft defending me, but only because I think scum is more likely to not want to take responsibility for my flip

[Dannflor]

VOTE: minimegabyte

[Dannflor]

if dannfloor is town, and i die at night, kill gretchen

i would agree

[Dannflor]

HypoSoc, what would you say if I could point you to games of both alignments by April where she's fake claimed IC? The only reason I'm not taking it seriously is because I know the history of that player and they do things like fake claim IC often

I would be very annoyed that that information wasn't presented days ago. I'd probably be tempted to policy eliminate April. But I still townread her, so, I'd be conflicted.

it's why people have tended to doubt it this game

it's not worth policying over. April is a good player and probably town... just has reasons for fake claiming as both alignments so it can't really be factored into a read of their slot

[Dannflor]

I am inclined to think there's exactly one mafia on my wagon? I think that has to be within you and April

ergo if April were to flip town

[Dannflor]

I don't really care if mafia can see because if April is town I want them to stay alive

[Dannflor]

I feel like it's unlikely all 3 scum were pushing my wagon together

[Dannflor]

Why is that unlikely?
One is Flavorleaf, extremely active and everyone thinks he is likely town for some unknown reason and the other two are people that barely talk.

individually, sure

but mafia are usually a little more self aware and don't all like to be clumped up in the same direction. at least more experienced teams (and particularly any team April would be a part of) would like work to not associate with each other so blatantly by all pushing one wagon that isn't even necessarily needed.

[Dannflor]

if i get nightkilled, awesome, i dont have to play

why don't you want to play

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

@ Dann - i think i said earlier that i thought you had done the best you could replacing into the game considering the posistion you were in, but man...3 votes on one page on 3 different people looks bad. why must you do things like that?

you vote Rlotus for no obvious reason.
half an hour later you provide a reads list, rlotus is high in it and you vote someone else
half an hour later you vote for someone else who you had in your 2nd towniest tier?

I have felt that I have a nebulous grasp on this game given I replaced in like 48 hours ago. I'm also not as careful with my vote as most people. I voted Alice because my most confident town read in Bugspray was voting there and wanted to start a wagon. and I didn't really have a better place to put it at the time.

Rlotus I originally felt fell into the camp of "people soft defending me and could be scum" but then I reread and don't feel bad about his posting

I dunno I'm generally a pretty self aware poster and if I wanted to fake consistency with my reads / votes I certainly could

it's not like voting rlotus or alice was some desperate gamble to keep me alive. I'm really just trying to generate information because from my pov there's so many inactive posters or people who are just determined to give me nothing and that makes it really hard to figure this game out

[Dannflor]

VOTE: minimegabyte

That's interesting vote. Can you elaborate why you think mmb is Mafia?

I kinda already have if you've read my posts but I'll be more specific.

Half of his ISO isn't content, it's promising to provide content or remarking on things that really have no bearing on anyone's alignment in this game. They post vaguely about how they "don't like how quickly that wagon formed on Da Dude" with no further explanation. Why? What makes quick wagons bad? What makes Da Dude town? You would think a townie who thinks something like this would spend more energy defending the slot or elaborating on why the quickness of the wagon means bad. Later, they even say "go ahead and eliminate Da Dude I just won't be on the wagon." It kinda reads like blatant "I know the person being wagoned is town so I don't wanna be on it but also I don't care if it goes through." Which is a scum agenda.

[Dannflor]

VC 1.08

Ydrasse (0)-

Da Dude (6)-

AliceK, geraintm, April Ludgate, Gretchen, Drippinggoofball, Ydrasse

(E-1)

Amélie (0)-

DrippingGoofball (1)-

HypoSoc

AliceK (1)-

Da Dude

geraintm (0)-

Gretchen (0)-

April Ludgate (0)-

RLotus (0)-

clidd (1)-

bugspray

bugspray (2)-

MiniMegabyte, clidd

HypoSoc (1)-

RLotus

MiniMegabyte (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

Amélie

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-03-06 20:00:00)

- Mar 3rd 20:00 GMT

I dont like how quickly that wagon formed on Da Dude

I am not sure what Mini wants to achieve here. His reads are very controversial. Why are you townreading entrapta/DaDude?

Purely based on the wagon.
I find it really unlikely that scum would bus day one (I could be wrong but just my opinion) which leaves the wagon forming so quickly because scum found an opportunity for a wagon and jumped ahead with it.

If you all want to eliminate Da Dude go ahead but I won’t be on the wagon

for reference

quick wagons do not automatically mean there is scum on the wagon

town form quick wagons all the time because townies are impulsive and get distracted by shiny things

this is a weak defense of me designed more to make MM look good rather than actually defend me or sort anyone on the wagon

[Dannflor]

i believe dadude is town just from wagon dynamics

what does this mean

[Dannflor]

Saying that your wagon is townie is... scummy.

DGB who are your strongest town reads

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gretchen

does anyone wanna summarize for me the 'genuinely nai things' that were brought up

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: cracked the game wide open

[Dannflor]

I don't have any particular strong feelings towards Klick one way or another

[Dannflor]

this feels like someone dropping from a wagon that wasnt going anywhere to one that was gettign traction. don't like this

why wouldn't town do this if a wagon on their other scum read was getting more traction

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Gretchen
I don't really have the motivation to show why clidd is scum more than I have atm and it seems clear that this isn't going anywhere
If Gretchen flips town it's worth looking at who said 'yeah clidd might be scum' and then didn't take up the chance to wagon him

I actually really think clidd is town, where does this scum read stem from specifically?

[Dannflor]

i always dislike people who move votes around with no explanation

a secret: scum know this looks surface level opportunistic and are more likely to *over explain* their votes than not explain at all

[Dannflor]

but yeah, just so you know April, if you wanna know what killed my motivation and enthusiasm for this game, it was you saying that right at the start

you are going to get scum read for 'incorrect' reasons in every single game

you're not a new player, I feel like this should not be new to you

which is why this feels more like scum frustrated by being caught for the wrong reasons than town frustrated because they think town is scum reading them wrongly

[Dannflor]

eh. town novice detective.

btw did you crumb this at any point

[Dannflor]

I don't believe that claim ftr

[Dannflor]

Tbh I'm used to reading clidd as really obviously town and reading this game I'm getting like zero towntells from him. (I've not played against him being scum before)

I've seen/read clidd as scum and I personally feel like the difference is night and day here

although I will admit he's maybe not as obviously town as he *can* be

but I also vaguely remember him saying that that sort of playstyle was exhausting for him so I've kinda been excusing him for that in my mind because of that

[Dannflor]

I mean by one player

I'm more scum reading you based on reactions to April than whatever April was sring you for

[Dannflor]

We're not voting Gretchen today that's dumb

is it because of the claim

[Dannflor]

meh I think it's fake and designed to make us let her live multiple nights

[Dannflor]

Fine

VOTE: geraintm

[Dannflor]

have you ever played with me before? am i meant to fake hot takes and make pronouncements with 99% certainty?

nope

but opinions about the game would be nice

remarking something feels off but not trying to extrapolate anything from that observation feels off

[Dannflor]

Why is Klick still voting 3 different places in the vote count

[Dannflor]

VOTE: mmb

[Dannflor]

I love it

[Dannflor]

Why would you claim TPR with 3 votes on your wagon instead of keeping that secret and just like, being townie

[Dannflor]

What is this question meant to achieve exactly?

I'm trying to figure out if you're replacing into a scum slot who overreacted to a mid-size wagon or if you're bad town

[Dannflor]

What is this question meant to achieve exactly?

I'm trying to figure out if you're replacing into a scum slot who overreacted to a mid-size wagon or if you're bad town

This isn't genuine solving, unless you yourself are a really bad player. It's incredibly surface level.

You're just trying to excuse yourself for sticking on my wagon while making it look as though you're not being blatantly opportunistic.

sure

[Dannflor]

Solon, how much have you read of the game? Did you realize there have already been 2 TPR claims upon entering?

[Dannflor]

also, my vote on you lacks the context of many posts casing the prior user in your slot, which I assume you haven't read

funnily enough, your slot strongly town read my slot which I thought was suspicious

[Dannflor]

I've just now read back a little and saw a novice detection claim, I'm weighing it up.

What was the other one

Klick softed *something*

[Dannflor]

Honestly, I think you being a TPR is more likely than the novice detective claim being true

[Dannflor]

I think you might actually be town

I just really wish you had not claimed so early, we could've gotten there without that

[Dannflor]

Honestly, I think you being a TPR is more likely than the novice detective claim being true

So why are you voting me

I haven't moved it yet

[Dannflor]

grrrrrrr

[Dannflor]

Oh and April also claimed D4 Innocent Child

[Dannflor]

The slots I want to wagon just aren't here which is frustrating

[Dannflor]

VOTE: geraintm

this or Amelie I think

[Dannflor]

I have a role that synergises with Gretchen's in such a way that makes me believe the claim is town.

Can we vote scum today?

[Dannflor]

Yeah the IC claim is probably fake but I thought I'd put it out there anyway since some people have taken it seriously. It's not alignment indicative for April to make fake claims like that.

DGB could be scum. They haven't been particularly gungho about pushing anything, besides a couple weak posts here and there going after me.

HypoSoc, I go back and forth on, I *think* I've settled on their focus of the IC claim being town indicative? I also scum read their posting style but realize it might be just that, a posting style. meh, I wish I had something more solid here

[Dannflor]

bugspray is probably the most consensus town read

why did their last post suck

I don't know how you can evaluate whether your slot's previous content sucks or not blah blah blah

And I mean I think more than just us are going to agree you shouldn't have claimed

[Dannflor]

The deadline is frozen right now btw

[Dannflor]

I don't like the clidd wagon

[Dannflor]

I feel like he is

[Dannflor]

seriously, I think his consistently transparent posting this game wrt his reads is towny

at the same time he seems to be thinking things through and I can track some sort of thorough line of thought process through his posts

his votes feel a lot more to me like "let's see what happens here" then "ooh I can vote this inconspicuously"

[Dannflor]

"let's see what happens here"

this kind of experimental voting you suggest is condewsive to scum trying to create a good wagon that sticks to a townie

it's conducive to a townie trying to figure out people's alignments too

what is your read on him

[Dannflor]

mafia having information about the setup is not unusual btw

[Dannflor]

Dann is practically reading me like a book.

especially when he's your scumpartner

that's a weird post

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hyposoc

[Dannflor]

VOTE: biped

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hyposoc

[Dannflor]

This wagon feels a little dirty with how quickly it's sprung up, let's try this instead

VOTE: Lotus

why

[Dannflor]

did you confuse biped with my slot

[Dannflor]

VOTE: DGB

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb

[Dannflor]

dgb + April + someone else

[Dannflor]

geraintm I understand you think my vote looks bad

but what do you think that says about my alignment, would you still say it's bad if hypo had flipped red

i am going to need more than this from you

[Dannflor]

that's an odd response to a scum read pushing you

[Dannflor]

why is it town?

[Dannflor]

Geraintm I think you should place a vote down

[Dannflor]

why is it town?

Idk what they are, but I'm asking what gives you confidence the DGB is scum?

I’ll explain eventually but I want more people in this game to put down votes first

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

nah jk kill dgb VOTE: DGB

I shouldn't have to reveal why I'm voting it at this point

[Dannflor]

@Dann I don't really care for you going into detail on roles or claims other than is this 100% accurate scum caught or no?

I'd say very rarely is anything 100%, even cop guilties run into the possibility of millers.

However, I'd say this is greater than 90% and DGB's reaction does not decrease that at all.

[Dannflor]

btw don't think DGB's role can exist with mine, gretchen's, and whatever Solon has and have it be balanced

[Dannflor]

the thing is... I didn't track DGB

so it's weird it assumes I did

[Dannflor]

actually

Night 1 psychologist fits weirdly well with the novice detective but ehhhhhhhh

[Dannflor]

VOTE: amelie

[Dannflor]

Dannflor I really want to know why you had so much confidence in DGB being scum if you aren't tracker, that is very fishy to me.

lol you're not gonna get me to claim

I came out of the day pushing DGB largely as a reaction test. The reaction I got seemed awful initially, but I've been reconsidering. When mafia NKs me you'll be able to see the info I got and conclude for yourselves whether DGB is scum.

Frankly, I thought it was suspicious that DGB was giving an explanation for why it visited the NK preemptively. But now I don't really think DGB!scum does that without knowing for sure it was tracked to the night kill

[Dannflor]

also like Rlotus it's really weird you're just lumping me in DGB into the same category when it's probably very unlikely we are ever scum buddies and yet you're doing nothing to decipher which one of us you think is more likely? Despite thinking scum must be among us?

idk it's weird

I actually like Alice's vote

VOTE: rlotus

[Dannflor]

why solon

[Dannflor]

btw I was wrong to say all 4 of our roles couldn't be town

4 is like a standard number for the game of this size and they all seem to be (maybe?) fairly weak investigative roles

they are weird roles to all coexist but if this is all there is it's actually not unlikely

[Dannflor]

I'm gonna be honest

it's finals week so that bit of information must have just leaked out of my brain

VOTE: amelie

I can do Alice too I suppose

[Dannflor]

I'm counting 4

solon, dgb, me, gretchen

who am I missing

[Dannflor]

april doesn't count

[Dannflor]

oh shoot you're right, sorry I'm not paying very much attention this is a busy week

I'll reread shortly

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

[Dannflor]

Alright, does anyone have any thoughts on DGB?

We have 2 days left.

I am the easiest person to yeet after all.

Is this true? I kind of feel like you should have been wagoned a lot harder based on your reaction to my "guilty" and yet

granted I ended up changing my mind like twice but if you were town with a soft guilty on you I would imagine scum might be playing it safe towards your slot and not outright pushing it

[Dannflor]

yeah alright

VOTE: dgb

[Dannflor]

That was E-2

[Dannflor]

It's actually your reaction to Dann having a possible guilty on you.

Sure

I mean this + the fact that you seem determined to not play this game

if you had never revealed your night target you would not be run up right now