TM 2021: A normal roguelike

[xofelf]

Yeah uh, a *lot* has happened, I do not know if anybody is in a place to contribute much for a bit.

[xRECKONERx]

[Isis]

Votecount 5.0

• Aristophanes (He/Him)
  (0)
  
• xofelf (They/Them)
  (0)
  
• DeasVail (He/Him)
  (0)
  
• Adorable (She/Her)
  (0)
  
• xRECKONERx (He/Him)
  (1) DeasVail

Not Voting (4): xofelf, The Bulge, Adorable, xRECKONERx
With 5 alive, it takes 3 votes to make a decision.
(expired on 2021-03-30 02:00:00)

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[DeasVail]

Even the parts that he forgot that Reck brought up, those just feel like the kind of thing DV would have forgotten about in a natural way.

I think it's important to point out that there is nothing that I forgot

[DeasVail]

DV's case is full of giant gaping holes and flat-out false statements or at least logically inconsistent ones

This statement is absolutely not justified by Reck's big response post.

Seems like hyperbole in order to have my suspicion be dismissed.

[DeasVail]

On day 1 after RCEnigma fake claimed vig DV and Reckoner both unvoted him and voted Ydrasse. I think it would make more sense for scum to not vote Ydrasse after RCEnigma's fake claim because if Ydrasse did get eliminated on day 1 then that would mean RCEnigma would have been outed on day 2 which would mean the last scum would most likely have to solo for so many days and this makes me think Ari is the last scum because of this. There were some posts Ari made that were really suspicious and I'll do an iso of them when I'm done with work since I'm on my work break right now.

This is the best case for Reck-town that I've heard, and something I quite strongly considered before deciding that I believed Reck to be scum. Much like my reason for initially thinking that RCE and Ydrasse could have been scum together, I believe that once peta and I voted for Summer Nights, there were no other real wagon opportunities for scum that day. Being a third scum in that scenario would be AWKWARD. How do you even respond to that situation? If Summer Nights is eliminated and other scum stayed on RCE then they risk looking bad, just as trying to elim Summer Nights risks looking bad if RCE is eliminated. And I get your point. Is it worth the risk of potentially contributing to a Summer Nights elim? At the very least two town members in me and peta initially backing off the RCE elim because of the claim grants permission for others to do the same. And I'm not sure that I expect a third scum in that situation to actually be entirely logical and measured in what they are doing. If I were in that situation I would be freaking out in the scum PT absolutely not knowing what to do.

I still think it's a decent point in favour of Reck-town.

But similarly I am hesitant about Ari being scum. I think Ari as scum trying to push a massclaim through despite it being unpopular to multiple town members is VERY BOLD for Ari as scum. In Day 1, Ari hard-defended beeboy when there was little benefit for scum in doing so, and Day 4 busses Ydrasse, when if Ari is scum there are actual other elim options. For example, trying to elim me before Ydrasse makes a lot more sense. I know it hasn't necessarily happened here, but scum could easily think that a Ydrasse scum-flip makes me a lot harder to elim. Getting me eliminated first makes a lot of sense imo, especially with Reck getting suspicious of me Day 4. Why go for Ydrasse there?

(On that note I think it's bizarre that I'm still considered potential scum after the Ydrasse scumflip after I pushed both RCE and Ydrasse as scumreads to quite a strong degree, but that's another thing entirely)

[DeasVail]

You'll also note that I dropped a full catchup and reread of RCE in 2596, wherein I said if I'm pegging anyone for turbobussing RCE, it's you.

I believe that this was just based on post counts. Seems incredibly superficial to me

[DeasVail]

But to Xofelf and Ari, I really need more from you about why Reck is town. I believe that Reck being town is this assumption that has just materialized and does not have much basis for remaining.

I once townread Reck too, I get it. But the more the game progressed, the more I realised that there was not actually all that much in the way of good reason to read Reck as town, and the more and more I became suspicious of the way that Reck was playing.

[DeasVail]

To me, Reck honestly makes so much more sense as scum than Ari or Adorable, and I am still unclear on why he is off people's PoE's

[xofelf]

Even the parts that he forgot that Reck brought up, those just feel like the kind of thing DV would have forgotten about in a natural way.

I think it's important to point out that there is nothing that I forgot

That's honestly fair, I'll admit my reading comprehension has been fucked the last few days.

Thing is, it's not exactly that I think reck is super town, but rather there's at least one person who I don't think is town, and then people that have question marks depending which lens I view them through.

[xRECKONERx]

DV's case is full of giant gaping holes and flat-out false statements or at least logically inconsistent ones

This statement is absolutely not justified by Reck's big response post.

Seems like hyperbole in order to have my suspicion be dismissed.

To be fair, this was also when I misread "didn't vote" instead of "vote" for Ydrasse.

But...

The gaping holes were the leap in logic required for me to think Ydrasse's flip would change my Poe

and the fact you were painting my progression on you as nonexistent (WOW HOW DOES RECK GO FROM TOWNREADING ME TO SCUMREADING ME) when the progression and thoughts are there

those are gaps, falsehoods, or logical inconsistencies. It's not hyperbole to point those out

But boy do I really just not give a fuck anymore lol

[xRECKONERx]

Like full disclosure if DV is gonna bet the game on me being scum I don't have a ton of energy to fight against it, so, at that point, it's p much up to what you wanna do xof. if DV isn't the scum in Ari/DV then he's town that's throwing the game away.

i just don't care

i dont. care.

My care meters have been depleted.

my team all sorta collectively gave up when it became obvious we have no chance at winning TM anymore (thanks, Flavor Leaf, for being a self-congratulatory performative jackass tbh), and I just

Cannot find the fucks to give!

I'm still very confident in my PoE, I plan to stick to that to try to win this game so I at least go out on a high note. but yeah.

I'm just setting expectations for my contribution levels moving forward

[xofelf]

I know, and I don't blame you for any of that shit whatsoever. I'll thank you for the contributions you do have. You don't owe us shit, do what you gotta, I getchu.

[DeasVail]

To be fair, this was also when I misread "didn't vote" instead of "vote" for Ydrasse.

I feel like "full of giant gaping holes and flat-out false statements" depends on more than misreading just one thing.

I obviously want to know if you're town. I am constantly thinking about this read. But I'm at a similar place here to how I was when I was pushing RCE, and your responses to my posts have felt as if you're twisting what I'm saying into somehow being unjust or stupid or obviously false. Or just dismissing me as scum because of it which also does not help because here I am just continuing to think you're scum.

[DeasVail]

Here's the thing. Reck/Xof/Adorable all think Ari is scum. You could vote Ari without me if you wanted. I would be very cautious about that and believe Ari to be town. But it's not like I can functionally stop that from happening by not voting Ari. This is why I am being so vocal about why I think Reck is scum and Ari is town.
I could be wrong. It's very possible! But I am a fair way off being convinced of that.

[xofelf]

Okay then DV, tell me how you feel about Adorable then? like are you sure you know where she falls? I didn't say Ari was scum but rather he *could* be. Which is how I feel about you and Reck. I can squint and see the universes in which you are scum and I am dumb. I can't do that with Adorable and I don't know why.

[DeasVail]

I'm about to head to work but I'll do a write-up on Adorable this afternoon

[xofelf]

Thanks friend <3

[DeasVail]

My thoughts on Adorable can essentially be summarised as:

Adorable's posting is such that it strongly comes across as a town member merely posting what they think, without much thought given to how they look from it or how what they post is going to be received.

Recent examples include her posted thoughts on Ari in 2823. In this post Adorable says the following:

Ari has been changing his reads too much while I have been consistent on my reads and Ari said that I am the best elim for day 4 because of this. How is being consistent scummy?

Reads to me as genuinely being baffled that she is being scumread for something that she uses as a reason to think people are town. There is an effortless assumption that she is town with the thought of "I am consistent, Ari is not" that can be faked as scum but is less natural.

Ari putting me in front of Ydrasse making it look like Adorable/Ydrasse instead of Ydrasse/Adorable is also suspicious. When scum makes a list of team pairings they would often put town on the left and their scum buddy on the right.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=82679 In this game I linked where I was scum who made fake team pairing I literally put a town player on the left and my scum buddy on the right.

This is reasoning that I think would come across as bizarre to a lot of people, but Adorable's posting gives me the impression that she really believes it. It's an odd thing to add to a case as scum though because it's not the kind of thing that is going to convince anyone or make them think more highly of your case.

Ari said on day 4 Ydrasse has been scummy all game saying countless times you had scumreads on her and by your team but on day 2 you said you and your team mate had a town read on Ydrasse and I quoted this above earlier so what you are saying in this post is a lie.

Calling out the post as a "lie" is very aggressive coming from Adorable scum if she knows Ari is town, yet there's no extra emotion or other performative flourish about it. It is said bluntly, stated as fact. Again, as if to me Adorable fully believes it.

--

There are other examples I could talk about if need be, but my thoughts very much follow the above trend.

[Aristophanes]

Sorry guys I will read up again today

[xofelf]

I have a killer migraine today. If it goes away once I drown it in caffeine, I'm here like I said I could be. But if it doesn't, I may have to postpone the planned powwow til tomorrow afternoon.

Either way, there's shit to shift.

[Aristophanes]

Feel better my friend <3

[Adorable]

On day 1 after RCEnigma fake claimed vig DV and Reckoner both unvoted him and voted Ydrasse. I think it would make more sense for scum to not vote Ydrasse after RCEnigma's fake claim because if Ydrasse did get eliminated on day 1 then that would mean RCEnigma would have been outed on day 2 which would mean the last scum would most likely have to solo for so many days and this makes me think Ari is the last scum because of this. There were some posts Ari made that were really suspicious and I'll do an iso of them when I'm done with work since I'm on my work break right now.

This is the best case for Reck-town that I've heard, and something I quite strongly considered before deciding that I believed Reck to be scum. Much like my reason for initially thinking that RCE and Ydrasse could have been scum together, I believe that once peta and I voted for Summer Nights, there were no other real wagon opportunities for scum that day. Being a third scum in that scenario would be AWKWARD. How do you even respond to that situation? If Summer Nights is eliminated and other scum stayed on RCE then they risk looking bad, just as trying to elim Summer Nights risks looking bad if RCE is eliminated. And I get your point. Is it worth the risk of potentially contributing to a Summer Nights elim? At the very least two town members in me and peta initially backing off the RCE elim because of the claim grants permission for others to do the same. And I'm not sure that I expect a third scum in that situation to actually be entirely logical and measured in what they are doing. If I were in that situation I would be freaking out in the scum PT absolutely not knowing what to do.

I still think it's a decent point in favour of Reck-town.

But similarly I am hesitant about Ari being scum. I think Ari as scum trying to push a massclaim through despite it being unpopular to multiple town members is VERY BOLD for Ari as scum. In Day 1, Ari hard-defended beeboy when there was little benefit for scum in doing so, and Day 4 busses Ydrasse, when if Ari is scum there are actual other elim options. For example, trying to elim me before Ydrasse makes a lot more sense. I know it hasn't necessarily happened here, but scum could easily think that a Ydrasse scum-flip makes me a lot harder to elim. Getting me eliminated first makes a lot of sense imo, especially with Reck getting suspicious of me Day 4. Why go for Ydrasse there?

(On that note I think it's bizarre that I'm still considered potential scum after the Ydrasse scumflip after I pushed both RCE and Ydrasse as scumreads to quite a strong degree, but that's another thing entirely)

I saw your reasoning on why you scum read Reckoner and I can see what you mean. Since you think Reckoner is scum why would scum Reckoner vote Ydrasse instead of voting elsewhere?

[Adorable]

On day 1 after RCEnigma fake claimed vig DV and Reckoner both unvoted him and voted Ydrasse. I think it would make more sense for scum to not vote Ydrasse after RCEnigma's fake claim because if Ydrasse did get eliminated on day 1 then that would mean RCEnigma would have been outed on day 2 which would mean the last scum would most likely have to solo for so many days and this makes me think Ari is the last scum because of this. There were some posts Ari made that were really suspicious and I'll do an iso of them when I'm done with work since I'm on my work break right now.

This is the best case for Reck-town that I've heard, and something I quite strongly considered before deciding that I believed Reck to be scum. Much like my reason for initially thinking that RCE and Ydrasse could have been scum together, I believe that once peta and I voted for Summer Nights, there were no other real wagon opportunities for scum that day. Being a third scum in that scenario would be AWKWARD. How do you even respond to that situation? If Summer Nights is eliminated and other scum stayed on RCE then they risk looking bad, just as trying to elim Summer Nights risks looking bad if RCE is eliminated. And I get your point. Is it worth the risk of potentially contributing to a Summer Nights elim? At the very least two town members in me and peta initially backing off the RCE elim because of the claim grants permission for others to do the same. And I'm not sure that I expect a third scum in that situation to actually be entirely logical and measured in what they are doing. If I were in that situation I would be freaking out in the scum PT absolutely not knowing what to do.

I still think it's a decent point in favour of Reck-town.

But similarly I am hesitant about Ari being scum. I think Ari as scum trying to push a massclaim through despite it being unpopular to multiple town members is VERY BOLD for Ari as scum. In Day 1, Ari hard-defended beeboy when there was little benefit for scum in doing so, and Day 4 busses Ydrasse, when if Ari is scum there are actual other elim options. For example, trying to elim me before Ydrasse makes a lot more sense. I know it hasn't necessarily happened here, but scum could easily think that a Ydrasse scum-flip makes me a lot harder to elim. Getting me eliminated first makes a lot of sense imo, especially with Reck getting suspicious of me Day 4. Why go for Ydrasse there?

(On that note I think it's bizarre that I'm still considered potential scum after the Ydrasse scumflip after I pushed both RCE and Ydrasse as scumreads to quite a strong degree, but that's another thing entirely)

I saw your reasoning on why you scum read Reckoner and I can see what you mean. Since you think Reckoner is scum why would scum Reckoner vote Ydrasse instead of voting elsewhere?

I'm talking about day 1 over here and I forgot to put that down.

[DeasVail]

I like your point that scum may be more likely to stay on RCE rather than move to Summer Nights in that situation, but I think it's worth considering that Reck voted beeboy while beeboy was not posting with the whole reasoning of "play the fucking game or gtfo", and it's a pretty safe vote to make as scum because the expectation is usually that those slots get replaced and even if not, places him on the wagon early. He never really expressed a scumread on the slot so maybe he felt that it would feel more "real" to switch to Summer, idk.

I think a vote elsewhere would have been ultra-avoided by scum though because regardless of whether it's RCE or Summer that gets eliminated. It's a super bad look ultimately if you were trying to start a different wagon and there was little hope of it being successful anyway because peta/me had landed on Summer.

When the main wagon is scum, and then the alternative is also scum, the third scum is going to be in a pretty stuck position.