Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:31 am

In post 2525, Andresvmb wrote:VPB is for sure making bad arguments against me. They have been spectacularly dismissive and sarcastic about my perspective, have completely failed to try and empathize, and seem to think that every single player that has pushed them is coming from a place of bad faith.

First, I'm not making bad arguments against you. I've pointed out legitimate flaws in the things you've said and your general approach to this day. Everytime you've been forced to acknowledge that, you move the goal posts.

Second, every person you've listed has indeed argued in bad faith against me. I replied in very specific detail, for example, to the giant shit stream Lotus posted. I specifically showed how what he was trying to argue was incorrect and out of context. I replied in very specific detail to Elements and Duchess.

I literally spent hours rereading the crap duchess was trying to shade me on because it was so incoherent.

So don't come in here and say I'm not "empathizing" with you. I don't own you empathy. I don't owe you a thing. You're repeating bad talking points I've already disproven with other players. You don't get to come in and say "VPB is shady" and act like I should take that seriously.

If I had you as a locktown read, I'd definitely take your points seriously and try to explain you out of it. But I don't have you up there. You aren't seeing my play this game, which has been completely transparent, for what it is. So why do you think I owe you seriousness and respect? Because you weren't on italiano and instead left a vote on a go nowhere wagon?

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:38 am

Also, I literally hear some version of this "VPB shady" argument everytime I'm town. It's maddening and easy to deploy as scum. You may as well say "gut". It has the same value and is about as defendable.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:52 am

You're literally telling Datisi to go look at debates I already won through facts with Elements/Duchess/Lotus and saying "but imagine if vpb DIDNT dismantle those points!"

Why do you think those players had to back off? Because they were right? No, it's because they were wrong and that was abundantly clear in thread. You saying "but what if" doesn't change that. You saying I'm in bad faith doesn't make it so. It's not for you to decide.

I return again to the point I made before. You claimed I was manipulating people, but the people allegedly manipulated don't believe it. So now you're trying to revive bad arguments from the past. That's what I mean by moving the goal posts, and that's why I'm done arguing in good faith with you about this.

Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:00 am

In post 2546, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2543, VP Baltar wrote:Pedit: I have never made a hard push on elements or duchess as scum. I can certainly think actions are scummy and bad cases are scummy without reaching a hard conclusion those people have to be scum. Hell, I don't even have a hard conclusion about you. But if you think I'm going to town read you for this case you're trying to make, you're nuts.
Yeah you haven’t made any hard pushes outside of Dunn which you are now also backing from. Not sure why that would be a positive.

That's not true. I actually pushed pretty hard on lotus because his case was very bad from my perspective. Keep cherry picking.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:06 am

In post 2548, Andresvmb wrote:And now you’re calling them hardTown.

Quote me saying that. I think Lotus is more likely town after he took the time town town meta me. That has nothing to do with him arguing against me D1.

But my only hard towns are Datisi and momrangal.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:07 am

In post 2549, Andresvmb wrote:Don’t worry you don’t have to fight me anymore I’m voting midway. I’m effectively conceding.

Are you voting midway because you think he's scum or because you think that he will flip town and you can rail against me tomorrow in that case?

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:17 am

I want you on record preflip with your reasoning.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:29 am

In post 2554, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2550, VP Baltar wrote:But my only hard towns are Datisi and momrangal.
I thought those were your lockTowns. I had RLotus as your “hardTown” after 1994, and after you interacted with them in a completely different way.

That post definitely shifted my perspective on lotus. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying I never called him hardtown.

That feels like your assumption, not my statement.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:12 am

In post 2558, Momrangal wrote:When/why did cookie monster claim?

Am I forever gonna be in catch up mode x.x

Cookie claimed largely unprovoked. Who knows what was real/fake there. We decided just to leave it for now

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:44 pm

I wish I was dead.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:44 pm

Who was neighborized last night?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:51 pm

I found BM to be town because the game I had just played with him, he was a listless disaster. He at least had opinions here and was following through on them. It was an extremely stark contrast from my perspective.

That being said, my reads are fucked this game and I need to reconsider everything/probably not be trusted to lead shit today.

Kind of am hoping someone has some useful info that narrows the pool or gets us a guilty.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:52 pm

In post 2582, RLotus wrote:Actually I'm mostly confident in Datisi

If I AM getting hard pocketed, I will be bummed.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:54 pm

GC, what did you and Datisi talk about if you aren't going to reveal who was neighborized? Are you confident those folks are town?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:01 pm

In post 2591, Andresvmb wrote:Look here's my thinking. Basically, one of {VPB, Datisi} is practically guaranteed Scum. We have one more mis-execution. VPB is very likely to be execution bait if he's Town, since everything he's pushed for has been dead wrong. And given the arguments VPB has put forth, I put decent odds that it's just Scum. So that's what we should do.

I would rather we actually yeet scum today.

I would also rather you and I don't get into a pissing contest again today. Me being wrong is like 60% of my town performances, but I am willing to not be out in front today given I was wrong yesterday. Never been afraid of humble pie in this game.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:04 pm

In post 2595, Andresvmb wrote:Dunn is always Town. Dunn should literally never get executed here. DGB I would move up as solid Town.

I still don't understand these too outside you thinking I have to be scum.

If I flip town, does that change your perspective on those slots?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:04 pm

You were on the midway wagon....

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:10 pm

In post 2599, RLotus wrote:Says he is not interested in voting on the Italiano wagon, suddenly when VPB shifts attention to midway, so does Datisi, for a very airy reason. He also suddenly began calling Dunn town after VPB backed down from him.

Essentially, he has no conviction behind his pushes, but rather is riding town's (namely VPB's) wave.

This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.

GC, can you give us your thoughts on Datisi since you have had much more candid interaction?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:13 pm

In post 2606, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2605, VP Baltar wrote:This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.
Ah now this comes up? I thought Datisi was your lockTown. What happened?

Midway flipped town

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:16 pm

In post 2608, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2607, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2606, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2605, VP Baltar wrote:This is the particular bit I was rereading and freaking out that I have been getting taken for a ride.
Ah now this comes up? I thought Datisi was your lockTown. What happened?
Midway flipped town
You pushed that execution really hard. Or you forget that?

Did I say I did not? I'm not going to not follow my instincts just because I might be wrong.

I mean, you're wrong about me and if I have to go today, you'll see that. Would that make you feel bad about yeeting me? I doubt it.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:24 pm

Andres, were you with me in that game where I had that multiday fight with Taylor and I was pushed by scum as miselim bait after that?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:32 pm

In post 2617, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2616, VP Baltar wrote:Andres, were you with me in that game where I had that multiday fight with Taylor and I was pushed by scum as miselim bait after that?
I don't recall, but it does not matter. The way the game has developed means that you need to be executed. I am not going to get into some long-winded argument about it anymore.

I'm not trying to get into a long winded argument with you.

Look, I get it from your perspective. I don't quite agree with some of your characterizations of my play, but I'd be suspicious in your shoes. I really thought midway had to be the on-wagon scum, and I was totally going to rub your face in it today. Shoe is on the other foot now.

I guess what I'm saying is I will passionately argue about a point I believe in, and if I'm wrong I'm willing to pay those consequences. I'm not scum here though, so you should have a good alternative vision of the game if it is me today.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:42 pm

In post 2612, Andresvmb wrote:you diminished Cookie Monster's claim

God I wish I could shut my mouth, but this is just not true.

I'm the one who said we shouldn't yeet him when people were calling for it.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:51 pm

In post 2559, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2558, Momrangal wrote:When/why did cookie monster claim?

Am I forever gonna be in catch up mode x.x
Cookie claimed largely unprovoked. Who knows what was real/fake there. We decided just to leave it for now

In post 2381, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2378, Green Crayons wrote:If cookie clarifies that that was a legit claim I’ll switch my vote

Otherwise I disagree with Andres that the claim itself is AI
I'd rather we don't try to verify the doc claim. I don't think we should yeet cookie today

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:54 pm

In post 2631, Andresvmb wrote:VPB has insulted me

Look, if you feel like I've personally attacked you, I apologize. Games get heated, but it's a game and I honestly (and this doesn't have anything to do with the game) don't want to be a jerk to people. We've traded barbs, but I like you as a person and don't want to be insulting you.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:55 pm

In post 2634, Andresvmb wrote:Datisi made the exact same point that we should not do any favors for Scum and execute there for example. So how do I know which one is genuine and which one isn't?

I said it first

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:43 pm

Andres, I'm considering giving you and Lotus co-ownership of my vote as a sign of trust today. Like if you can both agree where to vote, I'll put my vote there, even if it's me. You both can't be scum here, and if I do survive today, I need to not be fighting with you for the rest of the game. What's your take on that?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:59 pm

In post 2647, Datisi wrote:green also feels like town, plus the fact cookie died makes me think he's less likely to be scum

I'm not following this

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:01 pm

In post 2647, Datisi wrote:baltar, are you buying into the "there must be scum between the two of us" theory?

Idk. It has crossed my mind I'm getting duped here. Honestly, I'd think you'd be suspicious of me too.

There's just WRONG here somewhere or we wouldn't have flipped two town.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:03 pm

In post 2651, Momrangal wrote:Other neighbor checking in

Interesting choice.

What's your take on the neighborhood momrangal?

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:15 pm

In post 2650, Datisi wrote:what's your current bet, where's the wrong?

Maxwell I need to stop avoiding and look at harder.

On you, I should give Lotus' case an open mind reading. I did feel like I led you onto midway yesterday in a way that tingled my paranoia.

I feel like my read on BM was accurate, but momrangal just comes and goes without much influence.

The lurkerfest is impossible. I'm waiting for Dunn to come in and say I was a fool all along and he has some night info to save the day.

Idk, generally when I help yeet a couple townies, I feel like I've made some bad assumptions somewhere and I need to quiet down and reconsider the full board.

VP Baltar · Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:14 pm

If it had been me, amdres' head would have exploded

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:42 am

In post 2720, Andresvmb wrote:And I generally TR the Elements/DGB slot.

I kind of flip flopped on elements a bit, and felt scum there for awhile. I have no clue on DGB. What are you seeing there?

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 2:44 am

In post 2657, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2651, Momrangal wrote:Other neighbor checking in
Interesting choice.

What's your take on the neighborhood momrangal?

Mom^

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:48 am

Hi DGB! You want to chat today? I'd be interested in some of your takes.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:09 am

In post 2726, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 2724, VP Baltar wrote:Hi DGB! You want to chat today? I'd be interested in some of your takes.
Really

My scumdar is a disgrace

You sure?

I can entertain you if you have a specific question.

It's cool, so is mine!

What are your thoughts on this discussion about Datisi or me being scum?

Do you think it is weird you were in the neighborize pool?

Who are your top three scum butts?

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:25 pm

I'm less confident GC is town here. Maybe I'm crazy. Also, I just badly want Datisi to be town and I'm having a hard time with that.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:00 pm

I haven't had time yet to line by line the lotus case and your responses. I plan to soon. Work has just been busy the last couple days and I chose to exercise this afternoon instead of mafiaing.

I don't think lotus is really scum here. I think he'd have zero reason to back off me yesterday, and he certainly could have had the upper hand on me today if he wanted to feed andres.

Maybe lotus is galaxy braining me, but seems like he had paths of lesser resistance if he was scum. If you're town though, I also get the OMGUS reax because of my own interaction when he was casing me.

Bigger picture, someone among the more active players must be scum. I don't believe all the scum are just lurking the fuck out of this game. So that's what I mean also when I say there has to be some WRONG here.

How do we feel about mass claim? I'm kind of hoping there is something to help, but not feeling like there is much behind the curtain this game.

Pedit: this post is in reply to Datisi

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:47 pm

In post 2752, Andresvmb wrote:I think I want an attempt at a solve from Datisi and VPB. A ranking, something. Something I can use to better understand what sort of universe you’re seeing.

Sure, I can do this probably later tonight or tomorrow.

Like I said before, I'm trying to back off driving a little bit since I was wrong, but I do have thoughts on where I could be wrong.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:50 pm

In post 2757, Andresvmb wrote:That’s fundamentally what I’m seeing you do Datisi.

Tbf, Datisi said it just happened to him. It hurts when that's the case and certainly makes a person paranoid.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:02 pm

In post 2760, Andresvmb wrote:Because if you exclude maxwell from the pool (and give Green Crayons the benefit of the doubt from their claim for example),

I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town. I'm weighing the possibility momrangal is scum as well. Datisi could be.

Some combination of that with you as an outside dark horse seems like a reasonable combination.

If it is those first three (and I haven't checked their intergroup interactions to see whether that is true), that makes more sense on the RTP kill given they suspected all those slots at various times D1.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:04 pm

In post 2767, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 1725, OutWorldER wrote:Elements (1): Battle Mage
Except Battle Mage ended on Elements, so maybe would have to look a little closer at that association and how strong that push was.

I broke down BM's vote in my wagon analysis

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:15 pm

In post 2771, Momrangal wrote:I iz dead

Baltyyy

I think the hood is a standard hood. GC. seems to be keen use it as a conditional Mason thread which matches up with what he was saying here.

I still don't get a sense of pocketing from either end so yeah

They seem to be prett friendly for neighbors

Why are you appealing to me on this? I'm confused

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:18 pm

In post 2772, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2768, VP Baltar wrote:I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.
I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear. I also think that the paranoia surrounding GC that RLotus and I expressed earlier could have easily resulted in a push for GC’s head. Unless maxwell and GC are aligned, does maxwell at this stage have much of an incentive to do that? They could have said absolutely nothing, and GC could theoretically have been pushed to execution. If GC is Town, at that point we’ve probably lost.

There are a lot of unclaimed people. Unless you think everyone else is VT.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:58 pm

In post 2790, Andresvmb wrote:@VPB can you give me some thoughts on Momrangal? Am I seeing ghosts there?

That reads list is not great, I'll give you that.

VP Baltar · Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:10 pm

In post 2793, Momrangal wrote:I did see you as town, but you're play here is nothing like your play in bears

What are the specific differences?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:07 am

Ok, my first priority today is digging into the Lotus v. Datisi dynamic and figuring out my own thoughts. This might be a series of posts as I'm going here, since I'm doing this while at work and my attention may get pulled away.

I want to start with this post:

In post 2604, RLotus wrote:Furthermore, VPB and Datisi are the constants on the two miselims, so it should be pretty clear why that's where we should look.

Also, I've stated this several times, but the relationship between VPB and Datisi has been strange. It doesn't seem natural that they wouldn't once waver on town reading each other or have even the slighest suspicion. I really think at least one of them has knowledge of the other's alignment.

And that's just to say that I understand being thrown by our dynamic, but I think there are a couple things to consider, at least from my point of view. I view Datisi's and my playstyle as actually somewhat similar as town. I think we both tend to try to form town blocs and then make those bonds unbreakable. When that works, it's basically a guaranteed winning technique as town because the scum eventually get PoE'd hard.

I think from the outside that seems unnatural. I've been on the outside of it as town and it is a weird dynamic. That being said, it can happen and people don't necessarily have inside knowledge of alignment. It's about trust and coalition building. Datisi and I did it recently in Jungle Oligarchy to some success. Unfortunately in that game, scum killed him as soon as we started to lock in.

The downside of this technique is if you lock in with a scum, you really fuck up the game.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:31 am

In post 2647, Datisi wrote:ooookay 2599 is a burning pile of trash and here is why:

- that is how i play. that is literally how i play. i probe and ask questions. sometimes those questions don't go anywhere because the responses don't strike my gut either way. and that's fine, i've gotten suspected over that shit before. but here's the thing: why hasn't lotus done some meta research on me to see that? he was suspecting baltar, then he ~did some meta~, figured his behaviour lines up with his town!meta, ok nvm. so why isn't he doing it here?

My take on this point: I agree with Datisi that this is just how he plays. When you ask a lot of questions, sometimes things don't go anywhere, or the only become relevant later when you get some flips or night info.

I don't really have a problem with that. I do that. I get accused similarly as town all the time.

Now, have Datisi's questions been especially directionless as Lotus says? IDK. I'd probably have to do a closer review of this game. I'm slightly more concerned Datisi hasn't questioned me more actually. I vaguely recall saying something to that effect on D1. It may be that Datisi is just getting better at town reading me now. I did expect more pressure from him this game, and that pings me. But I don't have the same general conclusions as Lotus because I generally felt like there were times in the game where Datisi was asking questions I was going to ask.

Regarding Datisi's point as to why Lotus didn't meta him. I don't find that super scummy either. Meta is a lot of work. I hate having to do it. Lotus might just be not into it. Yes, he did meta me, but that was far later after he attacked me.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:39 am

In post 2647, Datisi wrote:- "For example, when he was following VPB's votes onto Dunn and then to RTP, even though Datisi kept reitirating that he thought Italiano is scum." you know why i was doing that? (1) because people didn't seem that interested in italiano. i'm not a fool to keep my vote parked in places where i know it's not gonna go anywhere. (2) pressure is used to sort people. votes apply pressure. like i don't have to constantly have my vote on my strongest scumread, especially coupled with (1).

Datisi's response here is consistent with his votes. On RTP, he tranparently says he's sheeping me and adds "let's see what happens." That's clearly a pressure vote.

The Dunn vote is less clear since it just says "yeet". I did point out shortly before that the game momentum was really dropping off. That's harder to see when you are looking in hindsight, but I distinctly remember feeling like everyone was just giving up on the game and letting scum just fuck off.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:41 am

In post 2647, Datisi wrote:also i love how in 2604 lotus is saying how baltar and i are constants on the two misyeets and therefore it's "pretty clear" we should be looked at when he was on italiano d1 and kept putting midway in his scumpool but gave some p weak reasoning to not jump onto him

This is a legitimate criticism of you Lotus. I think you're a little rose-colored glasses on your play around those folks, particularly Italiano.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:54 am

In post 2652, RLotus wrote:The difference being when you are scum you do the thing where you hook people into answering your questions, while as town I didn't ever see you do that in the few games I looked at.

can you explain to me the difference you saw in Datisi's scum games? I don't quite know what you me by "hook people"

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:55 am

Datisi, why are you confident there were many town on the Italiano wagon?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:59 am

In post 2653, RLotus wrote:wow you got 2 scum GC

Slight detour. Does this strike you as weird from your perspective Lotus?

I know we talked about this a bit already, but what are the odds that GC would neighborize two people who you find very scummy? I will say that I find the momrangal choice weird from both Datisi and then GC on the follow up.

I don't think Andres was the OBVIOUS ONLY CHOICE or anything silly like that, but he certainly could have been a better neighborize than momrangal or DGB if the goal, as I believe it was stated, was to make a soft masons 'hood.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:00 am

In post 2654, RLotus wrote:trash vote, I s2g I get OMGUSd everytime I push on someone. Italiano, VPB, andre, Datisi. Yep, every time.

lol

I do think you are perhaps a little bad faith in how you read people. But hey, we're all learning about each others' playstyles here.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:03 am

In post 2654, RLotus wrote:Why why why is this scummy? You think we should ignore the people on both Italiano's and midway's wagon? The fact that you aren't the least bit suspicious of VPB STILL is shocking. This is the natural place to look, this is not a scummy push.

I do agree with this criticism. I don't think it's scummy to be very suspicious of myself and Datisi today. I would be if I was on the otherside.

I don't think it's guaranteed one of us is scum, but it's a reasonable take objectively.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:16 am

Ok. Lotus and Datisi kind of have an iterative argument after that.

I think the strongest points against Datisi are:

1) A lack of suspicion of me
2) The move away from Dunn and toward midway after I shifted D2.

On point 1, it is very hard for me to say whether this is truly scummy or not. I know I'm town. I think I'm being pretty transparent in a way that I'm basically incapable of doing as scum. Datisi has played with me as both alignments a reasonable number of times. I am biased and don't think I'm hard to read. So is Datisi just good at reading me or is he pocketing me? I really don't have a clue. I'd like to believe the former.

On point 2, I can see the scum motivation here. It would be one thing if Datisi just came out and said he was sheeping me. That's pretty transparent and, honestly, something scum tend to avoid doing despite it being an easy tactic. Instead, Datisi gave reasons for those two shifts. Lotus' position is that those reasons were flimsy. I can see that. This point alone is probably not enough for me to outweigh the many times in this game that I have gotten good town vibes from Datisi.

So, my conclusion is that I can see something of a case on Datisi, but I am not at all confident he is scum. My gut is still saying town there. I don't love the OMGUS on Lotus, but I also think Lotus is overstating his case. I felt the same when Lotus was pushing on me.

Speaking of which, Lotus, can I ask you how you feel you've played this game? Like I"m thinking about all the people you say have OMGUSed you, and by your own measures, only one of those people are scum. That feels like a lot of hard pushing on town players. You've agreed with andres that I'm fucking up because of bad pushes (which I don't disagree with), but your own pushes have been bad too, right? What makes you so confident this time?

pedit:

Lotus wrote:Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in every single town wagon.

I don't think it's fair to say I was a driving force on Italiano. I helped rally people in a dead game on a deadline to yeet SOMEONE on D1. I was never super confident in an Italiano scum flip, but a flip is way better than a no yeet D1, even if you're incorrect.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:38 am

VOTE: Green Crayons

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:10 am

In post 2880, Green Crayons wrote:
In post 2816, VP Baltar wrote:I know we talked about this a bit already, but what are the odds that GC would neighborize two people who you find very scummy? I will say that I find the momrangal choice weird from both Datisi and then GC on the follow up.

I don't think Andres was the OBVIOUS ONLY CHOICE or anything silly like that, but he certainly could have been a better neighborize than momrangal or DGB if the goal, as I believe it was stated, was to make a soft masons 'hood.
are you purposefully ignoring the agreement i had with datisi or?

In the thing you quote, I say I find it a weird choice on both your parts. But given you said you wanted townies in your hood, that felt like the towniest choice?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:37 am

In post 2886, Green Crayons wrote:atisi + your/Andres interaction be end of D2 had undercut my good feelings about both of your slots

Tell me more about this. I don't remember you weighing in, but maybe you did.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:08 am

In post 2893, Green Crayons wrote:
In post 2888, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2886, Green Crayons wrote:atisi + your/Andres interaction be end of D2 had undercut my good feelings about both of your slots
Tell me more about this. I don't remember you weighing in, but maybe you did.
at the end of d2 baltar's theme of "suspicions against me are bad faith" (don't hold me to this being lodged against *every* suspicion thrown Baltar's way, but it certainly seemed that way) was not only tireseome but really strained credulity that baltar would really think 4(? i believe) folks who suspected him were all approaching his play with bad faith (which I see as another way of saying scummy)

at the end of d2 andres had sudden gone from a fly on the wall d1, first part of d2, to spewing posts left and right but also all over the place. hyper aggression in comparison to earlier play with nothing really setting it off. seemed potentially manufactured

globally, Baltar v. Andres bogged down the thread to the extent i don't think it was svs

did you say any of this yesterday? Do you think andres made a good case against me yesterday/today?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:30 am

GC, can you explain your thought process in landing on midway yesterday?

Also, who do you most want to yeet today?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:30 pm

I'm doing some rereading, so pardon if I start referencing some older stuff over the past 7-10 pages. They piled up on me quickly and I want to give them a more careful eye now that I have some time.

In post 2729, Momrangal wrote:I mean I didn't even realize it was the hammer but that doesn't matter.

Do you usually not look at the vote count when you vote? You didn't have a sense that midway was getting close to being yeeted?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:33 pm

@Datisi --- what do you think the optimal play of a neighborhood is? And if you had been given the sole choice to pick last night, who would you have neighborized?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:54 pm

In post 2772, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2768, VP Baltar wrote:I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.
I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear.

I don't want to get into setup speculation too much, but we had a cop/doc combo this game, even if they were nerfed a bit. That's a good deal of town power. Unfortunately, the dice roll was strongly against town this game.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:05 pm

In post 2785, RLotus wrote:If maxwell and GC are partners I think maxwell's play doesn't make sense. For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him. Furthermore, if GC and maxwell are both indeed fake, then surely there is at least one more PR or even two. If that/those PRs claim, then things get messy for them.

This is kind of a wrong take I think. As scum, you never want to claim you can guarantee the alignment of a buddy. If you or that person ever flip, then it becomes a 2-for-1 situation.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:08 pm

In post 2790, Andresvmb wrote:@VPB can you give me some thoughts on Momrangal? Am I seeing ghosts there? I argued with midwaybear that they were unlikely to be Scum because they didn’t have any defenders basically, and that they’re positioning didn’t make sense because they were attacking all of the more vocal slots. It’s not directly the case with Momrangal, but it’s a slight variation of this. However, I really do think that Momrangal is way off about me. And midwaybear did backtrack, unvoting VPB for example. Momrangal seems to be doubling down. What do you think?

Having done a little more rereading, the hammer is definitely bad. I'm still going back over your fight with mom, so Ill see if she addresses this more specifically there.

I'm not 100% following what you're saying about comparing momrangal and midway though? Are you saying you think momrangal is in a similar situation today to where midway was yesterday?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:25 pm

In post 2826, Andresvmb wrote:You know what I think? I think we’ve given too many of the quieter slots too much leeway to behave in the way that they have.

At this stage, I want an execution in {Momrangal, DGB, Dunn}. If for whatever reason all of us have just been off and are overly paranoid about each other (and I mean RLotus, VPB, Datisi, Me), and we’re actually Town here, we need to punish the slots that are also still ending up on Town. I would like to start with Momrangal, who very clearly had a Scummy vote last night and has a perspective that doesn’t make any sense to me, and they conveniently refuse to update.

lol, wish we would have yeeted Dunn on D1.

I don't know why this site's meta turned to "lurkers must be town."

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:29 pm

In post 2832, Andresvmb wrote:I still believe that Dunn isn’t going to flip Scum because of how the votes piled up

I think we should revisit this and all the wagons here soon. Some VC analysis can't hurt in seeing who is where as things are peaking.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm

In post 2838, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2835, Andresvmb wrote:Green Crayons has a lot of votes on Town actually. Cookie Monster, obviously midwaybear.
RTP, voted for Dunn in the early part of D2 which I have been pointing is a slight rehash of D1.

Yep, this is basically what I was getting at earlier today when I said I felt like GC might not be town.

He has a lot of votes toward town players without really putting much skin in the game and pushing on people. He's kind of inoffensive in a way that could be scum blending in just enough.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:44 pm

In post 2887, RLotus wrote:
In post 2881, Green Crayons wrote:
In post 2821, RLotus wrote:Compare that to yourself and Datisi who were driving forces in
every single town wagon
. Yes, it is very clear you two should be looked at. It boggles my mind that Datisi isn't seeing this.
is "driving force" something more than just votes from VD elimination?
I was referring to VD, midway, RTP, and Cookie Monster. As VPB stated it may be a bit of an exaggeration to call them a driving force on VD, but you get the gist.

Looking at this again, dude, I was not a "driving force" on RTP. I stepped in to call RTP town when BM was losing his shit and RTP was calling me scum.

I never voted cookie monster either. I said we should not just auto believe an unprompted AtE claim like that, but I was also the person who put my foot down first on yeeting Cookie Monster.

This is my struggle a bit with you and andres. There are times when you get way out over your skis in how you're characterizing events. I wish you didn't do that because it comes across as scummy, and I don't think you're trying to. Accuracy matters.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:54 pm

In post 2381, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2378, Green Crayons wrote:If cookie clarifies that that was a legit claim I’ll switch my vote

Otherwise I disagree with Andres that the claim itself is AI
I'd rather we don't try to verify the doc claim. I don't think we should yeet cookie today

In post 2382, Datisi wrote:hm
it didn't really occur to me that cookie might be town fakeclaiming but if we don't have plans yeeting there today i feel like she should not be clarifying that

pedit: lol

In post 2386, Green Crayons wrote:I only skimmed the pst few pages so from memory:

Yeah I don’t think the claim absolves cookie and I’d still like to pressure an elim, but if we’re not going down that path anymore then okay

Baltar why were you focused on whether there was midway momentum?

Andres were you satisfied with Baltar’s explanation of his change on midway?

I’m good with a midway vote bc of the prior suspicions I articulated + his preemptive vote on me when I was working through them with Qs posed to him, but I saw someone (Andres?) say we’re E-1 already? So I’m claiming intent to hammer.

Bolding mine.

If GC is scum, this is a pivotal moment. I say 'no way we are yeeting cookie today'. Datisi simulposts a similar sentiment and then GC is like 'oh well I don't think the claim does much, but yeah whatever'

That feels exceptionally vanilla of a reaction to doc claim.

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:51 am

In post 2915, DrippingGoofball wrote:Why are people voting GC?

He's voted a bunch of town players, pressured cookie on the doc claim the hardest, and has been "present" but not really pushing the game in any particular direction.

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:20 am

In post 2919, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 2918, Datisi wrote:hi dgb why are you voting baltar?
He's my biggest town read, so he's scum.

<3

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:41 am

So no one knows what they believe. Cool cool cool

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:46 am

In post 2914, OutWorldER wrote:
Official Vote Count 3.02

Morris Mechanic Theater, Baltimore

EliminationWith 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to eliminate someone.

Green Crayons (2): Andresvmb, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball
Datisi (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): Datisi

Not Voting
(4): maxwell, Green Crayons, Momrangal, Dunnstral

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-03-31 19:39:15).

Mod notes:
[/area]

I feel like there have to be scum not voting here.

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:57 pm

Let's look at some vote counts and see what stands out. For reference, here are all the replacements first.

Player List:
(Harumi Ayasato) maxwell
Green Crayons
(Lunar Martian) midwaybear
Reformed Toxic Player
(Testarossa) (Battle Mage) Momrangal
Andresvmb
(Elements) DrippingGoofball
ItalianoVD
VP Baltar
Datisi
Dunnstral
(Duchess) Cookie Monster
RLotus

I'm going to look at just the larger wagons I think, but if I see something interesting elsewhere, I may flag it:

VC 1.02 wrote: Harumi Ayasato (4): Green Crayons, Testarossa,
Duchess
, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, RLotus
VP Baltar (2): Andresvmb,
Italiano

Datisi (2):
Reformed Toxic Player
,
Lunar Martian

RLotus (1): Harumi Ayasato

Reformed Toxic Player
(1): VP Baltar

Duchess
(1): Datisi

A lot of unknown on this Harumi wagon early on.

VC 1.03 wrote:
Duchess
(5): Datisi, Green Crayons,
ItalianoVD, Reformed Toxic Player
, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, Lotus
Harumi Ayasato (1): Testarossa
Green Crayons (1):
Duchess

Reformed Toxic Player
(1): VP Baltar

ItalianoVD
(1): Harumi Ayasato
VP Baltar (1): Andresvmb
Datisi (1):
Lunar Martian

Duchess wagon came up fast after Harumi. Some town on there, but probably not all town? IDK.

VC 1.05 wrote: Dunnstral (4): VP Baltar,
midwaybear
, Green Crayons, Datisi

ItalianoVD
(3): Harumi Ayasato, RLotus,
Reformed Toxic Player

Harumi Ayasato (2): Testarossa, Elements
Elements (2): Andresvmb,
Duchess

Green Crayons (1):
ItalianoVD

Testarossa (1): Dunnstral

This was the highest I could get the Dunn wagon to on D1.

VC 1.07 wrote: Elements (4): Andresvmb,
Duchess, Reformed Toxic Player
, Dunnstral

Reformed Toxic Player
(2): Battle Mage, Datisi

midwaybear
(1):
ItalianoVD

ItalianoVD
(1): Harumi Ayasato
VP Baltar (1): RLotus
RLotus (1): VP Baltar

This one is actually maybe a little interesting. If you think andres and Dunn are both town, that's a pure town wagon that couldn't quite get over the edge on Elements.

VC 1.11 wrote: Elements (4): Dunnstral, VP Baltar, RLotus, Battle Mage
maxwell(2): Elements, Datisi

Reformed Toxic Player
(2): Green Crayons,
ItalianoVD

Green Crayons (1): maxwell
VP Baltar (1):
Duchess

Duchess
(1):
Reformed Toxic Player

RLotus (1): Andresvmb

Now the Elements wagon almost completely reforms. That's a lot of different people on Elements without a yeet.

D1 FINAL wrote:
ItalianoVD
(7):
Reformed Toxic Player
, Datisi, RLotus, VP Baltar,
midwaybear
, maxwell,
ItalianoVD
<--EXECUTED
maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb

midwaybear
(1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1):
Duchess

RLotus (1): Elements

I know I'm town. That wagon looks very town heavy. I think it's pretty obvious why I went after midwaybear D2 given I was town reading Datisi and Lotus and to a lesser degree maxwell. Blah if this entire wagon is town at a deadline. I really wish Italiano hadn't self hammered there.

VP created VC to capture peak of Dunn wagon wrote: Dunn (5): RLotus, VPB, Datisi, Elements, Green Crayons

midwaybear
(2): dunn, maxwell
maxwell(1): momrangal

A ton of unknown on this wagon. Elements is the one who flinches as soon as GC puts Dunn to E-1. Lotus follows shortly after when andres criticizes the speed of the wagon.

VC 2.03 wrote:
Cookie Monster
(3): DrippingGoofball, Andresvmb, Green Crayons
Green Crayons (2): Momrangal, Dunnstral

midwaybear
(2): maxwell, VP Baltar
VP Baltar (1):
Cookie Monster

Dunnstral (1): Datisi

I think this was the peak of the Cookie Monster wagon. Not a lot to see here, but I forgot andres was briefly on that. Weird that he ragged Datisi and me for not auto believing the claim when andres found cookie monster scummy. Doc is a very frequent scum claim. Anyhow, like I said, not much to actually learn here.

VC 2.04 wrote:
midwaybear
(5): maxwell, VP Baltar, Datisi, Dunnstral, DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster
(2) Green Crayons,
Cookie Monster

Green Crayons (1): Momrangal
VP Baltar (1): Andresvmb

This is the first cresting of the midway wagon. Alot of our current playerlist on there. Make sense why we are coming back to this and the dunn wagon when there is so much unsolved on those compared to the Italiano wagon. And of course, cookie is voting for herself.

Final VC on D2 wrote:
midwaybear
(6): VP Baltar, Datisi, Dunnstral, Andresvmb, Green Crayons, Momrangal <-- EXECUTED
Dunnstral (2): RLotus, maxwell
VP Baltar (1): DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster
(1):
Cookie Monster

Not a ton to see here either. People are not moving their votes around much and lurking is giving cover to scum in that sense. I think Datisi and I were most responsible for finally pushing this wagon through. Dunn was voting midway since D1, but didn't do much on that wagon. Still, if you think Dunn is town, I'm inclined to think the scum might be on the back end of that wagon...which is where we've seen pressure today. I'm not sure what was really going on with Lotus on D2. He had a camped vote on Dunn, but I can't remember if he was doing much pushing on that or not.

Today's vote counts aren't saying anything yet unfortunately.

VP Baltar · Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:58 pm

I'm especially interested to hear people's thoughts on those two Elements wagons from D1. That feels like the biggest thing I didn't really know before writing all this out.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:22 am

In post 2991, maxwell wrote:I'm not really liking the way RLotus is pushing on Datisi with his arguments but don't have a specific reason why. Also, if momrangal is scum, RLotus outing a guess of Datisi/me/mom and then focusing his attention almost solely on pushing Datisi is classically scummy rule of 3 stuff.

In post 2738, RLotus wrote:My push on you isn't trash, it is the natural place to look. Your position and VPB's position are scummy based on the flips. The fact that you think my push on you is trash and that you aren't questioning your read on VPB makes you look even more scummy. You don't have a reason to think I am scum other than the fact that I am pushing you (a towny place to push), that is why your vote on me is bad.

Also I am just obvtown at this point
This line, in particular, just isn't really saying anything? My push on you is not trash because you are scummy, I am not scummy because I am pushing you, it's just circular reasoning with no substance.

This is actually interesting. Wasn't Lotus the one who first interrupted andres' push on momrangal too?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:01 am

In post 3021, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 3020, Datisi wrote:italiano was on 5 votes already at that time, and imo green didn't attempt to present very convincing arguments for voting maxwell.
And that’s exactly the point. Green is trying to stay away from the Town execution about to happen, while wagoning someone they don’t care if they get flipped or not. Say the momentum moved away from Italiano for whatever reason - then there’s Green sitting on a wagon happy to cooperate. If GC is Scum, trust me, maxwell isn’t Scum.

Seems unlikely that would have happened at that point of the game. I don't think that vote says much of anything about maxwell either way.

Andres, if I'm reading you right, you think mom is town because of emotion? Why do you think that is coming from town instead of scum?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:17 am

In post 3024, Andresvmb wrote:Again, it also fits with {GC, RLotus} Scum though doesn’t it? You saw that RLotus floated the question - why would Green Crayons go against you as Scum? You saw that today, right? Well, Mom went against me
yesterday and today
, yet RLotus didn’t actually say that about Mom too. You don’t think that’s interesting?

I think I see it slightly different. In a hypothetical Lotus/GC scum team, I think Mom fits as a buddy.

I think Lotus has some inconsistency around a position on momrangal that rings weird.

Anyhow, doesn't matter right now because I agree that a GC yeet makes a lot of sense for triangulating information today.

@datisi - I thought you found GC town because of the way he talked in the hood too?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:19 am

UNVOTE:

Vote is still on GC in spirit. I want to hear from Lotus and Dunn before we end this day.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:59 am

Lotus, what are your thoughts on what's been said about GC? Let's put away associatives and trying to solve the full game. You said earlier you didn't want to yeet GC without mass claim. Do you still feel that way?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:08 am

Fwiw, I'm not sold on you being scum Lotus. Just a possibility. The problem we have with this game is the very active people don't look scummy, at least for me.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:32 am

This seems like a pointless argument rn.

I mostly just want to hear whether people are on board with GC, and if not, who their preferred yeet is.

Lotus has weighed in.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:33 am

In post 3053, RLotus wrote:It looks like were going to be in limlo whatever he flips anyway

Huh?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:39 am

Andres, do you think max should claim today? If he's town, he's an obvious NK target.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:05 am

Eh maybe that's stupid. I just hate when info dies.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:26 am

Andres or Lotus, can you point me to the specific post or posts where you went "oh, mom is emotional town"

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:39 am

In post 3070, Datisi wrote:i'm rarely the starter of wagons.

Just here or in general?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:40 am

In post 3068, Green Crayons wrote:I see I’m the flip for today

So I’m not really doing any more work

I have a modifier. It’s two shot so I can’t do any more help PR wise anyway

GL

Why give up?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:40 am

Also, what is the point of revealing the modifier now?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:58 am

In post 3074, Green Crayons wrote:Bc it’s true? Idk

I didn't say you were lying. Just seems like why say it at all if it's dead at this point? If we don't yeet you, scum know you're not a threat now and look like more of a liability

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:25 am

This everyone accepting their death thing is a mindfuck

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:10 pm

In post 3087, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 2781, Momrangal wrote:DBG and Dunn are town through how they are both playing and I think going after either of them has a massive amount of scum motivation because at this stage scum need to keep their options open.
@VPB what do you make of this btw?

Dgb and Dunn are black holes for me. I've sort of talked myself into thinking they are town, but who the hell actually knows. I'm surprised people have taken such hard town stances on them, but I'm also not playing some amazing game here.

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:16 pm

In post 3093, Andresvmb wrote:@Datisi @VPB I’m still waiting on your more detailed views of the whole game btw.

Feel like I've sort of been doing that all day. You're looking for like a reads list?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:45 pm

Here is generally how I feel about everyone off the top of my head:

Andres - I think he's likely town. I have been slightly annoyed at the LAMIST comments, but I think he genuinely believes he's obv town and was correct on our two flips. Sort of makes sense for him to want to lead the charge today as town. Could he be TMIing and big braining by staying off wagons? Sure. That's high level scum play though.

Datisi - Think I gave some pretty clear eval here when looking over the Lotus argument. My read is still town here. He's been a little more sheepy perhaps than in some other games I've seen. But outside the Italiano wagon, I havent seen pushes from him that I've had real struggles with. Overall, probably has slipped from locktown status for me, but I'd still need to see a strong case to yeet there, and I haven't seen that at all.

DGB - lol idk. I thought elements was kind of scummy. I'd suggest we look back at those two D1 wagons again tomorrow when we have more info.

Dunn - Lean town, but really would like to see him follow through on literally any conviction. His non-chalance at pressure is probably town indicative.

GC - I think his response to pressure has been fairly weak. I've outlined his somewhat from the sidelines play. The willingness to die is giving me pause. But seems like everyone is just doing that this game? I made a mental note today that I want to go back and read again the point where he claimed neighborizer. I remember that claim as striking me as a bit unforced at the time, but a reread seems worth it.

Momrangal - Felt BM was town for his consistency and shaking cages D1. Mom is pretty much a nothing burger since getting in this game. I kind of see what andres is saying about the emotion, but I'm not sure I buy that can't be faked. I'd say the scummy side of null here, but I need to do rereading for a yeet there today.

RLotus - This one is a struggle for me. Objectively, he looks scummy as fuck to me. I found his case against Italiano quite bad and tunnely D1 in a way that suggested scum who didn't know what else to do. Despite what andres says, his case against me was fucking awful. It was a lot of misrepresentation and spin that he doubled down on when I pushed. Lotus has also pushed several confirmed town players. BUT BUT BUT, he really didn't need to reconsider on me. I have a hard time seeing that from scum. It could be a pocket attempt. I think Flavor Leaf even suggests playing like that in his much read scum guide. Tunnel the fuck out of a townie, then flip the script and they'll defend you. Still, Lotus' given meta reasoning on me wasn't inaccurate or flimsy. He legit found games where I have reacted badly to townies attacking me. (I mean, I still think I'm right, not sure why the assumption is the attacker is correct....but it is correct to say that I do look suspiciously on people attacking me when I'm town). Where does this put Lotus overall? I don't know. I want to still believe he is town. But if he is town, then like, one or both of Datisi and GC need to be scum? I think Lotus has slid for me a little bit today, but probably still on the town side of the ledger barely until we get some more info.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:44 am

Datisi is town lol

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:44 am

Pagetop champion

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:46 am

In post 3099, Datisi wrote:lotus - i've talked about this already. i do not think his push on me today comes from *convinced town who is trying to get his scumread executed*, because he consistently failed to properly explain important parts of his push (how has my solving throughout the game apparently been fake, esp as he was townreading me for it up until today, what tf does hooking people into answering mean), refused to say which of my games did he apparently look at, didn't seem to care that his hard town looked at his case on me, and came away with "idk datisi still town tho". also he was undermining his own wrong pushes/reads on town, while hyping up mine.

Lotus can you respond to this? I asked you about the hooking thing as well. I'd like to hear what games you meta'd as well.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:50 am

VOTE: green Crayons

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:23 am

Think GC is at E-1

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:47 am

Someone hammer

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:33 pm

In post 3117, Momrangal wrote:I'm pretty sure this is flipping town

Lol ok

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:52 pm

Hammer for reals now. Where is maxwell? My guy out here lurking like a champ

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 am

Andres, Datisi, VP townbloc for the win. Rest of y'all got some 'splaining to do.

Momrangal I'm not sure on since the "GC flips town" thing was such a wild thing to say yesterday she could be town.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:16 am

Also, if I was right about Dunn... ELL OH ELL

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:27 am

Datisi! How good did it feel when GC flipped?

Also, should we speed yeet Lotus?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:36 am

In post 3232, Andresvmb wrote:I don’t want to get lazy, but I will say that at the very least people can stop feeling paranoid about me. Unless you think I’ve been trying to bus my buddy since the end of D1 of course.

This makes me more paranoid than if you just didn't say it, fyi

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:37 am

In post 3234, Datisi wrote:it was a very mixed feeling of "heck yeah we got one" and "god dammit the hood was nothing but a lie"

Anything we can glean from the hood? What did Mom day overnight?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:38 am

In post 3237, Andresvmb wrote:Don’t care. If you want to game throw, by all means. You’ll have to explain it later, not me.

Relax. I already called you town bloc. So uptight!

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:44 am

I'll try to rexamine my VC analysis post again today with our new info. I think that should lock this game up.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:22 am

In post 3245, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 3228, VP Baltar wrote:Andres, Datisi, VP townbloc for the win. Rest of y'all got some 'splaining to do.

Momrangal I'm not sure on since the "GC flips town" thing was such a wild thing to say yesterday she could be town.
I was first on GC so why should I 'splain anything?

I'm dumb and need convincing, mostly. Once I get to DGB locktown, watch out world!

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:42 am

In post 3249, Andresvmb wrote:I think this is the most likely slot to flip Scum out of everyone.

Why?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:12 am

Updating this post with new info and my own personal assumption that Datisi and Andres are both town. Let's see what comes out.

In post 2988, VP Baltar wrote:Let's look at some vote counts and see what stands out. For reference, here are all the replacements first.

Player List:
(Harumi Ayasato) maxwell
Green Crayons
(Lunar Martian) midwaybear
Reformed Toxic Player
(Testarossa) (Battle Mage) Momrangal
Andresvmb
(Elements) DrippingGoofball
ItalianoVD
VP Baltar
Datisi
Dunnstral
(Duchess) Cookie Monster
RLotus

VC 1.02 wrote:
Harumi Ayasato
(4):
Green Crayons
, Testarossa,
Duchess
, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, RLotus

VP Baltar
(2):
Andresvmb
,
Italiano

Datisi
(2):
Reformed Toxic Player
,
Lunar Martian

RLotus (1):
Harumi Ayasato

Reformed Toxic Player
(1):
VP Baltar

Duchess
(1):
Datisi

VC 1.03 wrote:
Duchess
(5):
Datisi
,
Green Crayons
,
ItalianoVD, Reformed Toxic Player
, Elements
Elements (2): Dunnstral, Lotus

Harumi Ayasato
(1): Testarossa
Green Crayons (1):
Duchess

Reformed Toxic Player
(1):
VP Baltar

ItalianoVD
(1):
Harumi Ayasato

VP Baltar
(1):
Andresvmb

Datisi
(1):
Lunar Martian

VC 1.05 wrote: Dunnstral (4):
VP Baltar
,
midwaybear
,
Green Crayons
,
Datisi

ItalianoVD
(3): Harumi Ayasato, RLotus,
Reformed Toxic Player

Harumi Ayasato
(2): Testarossa, Elements
Elements (2):
Andresvmb
,
Duchess

Green Crayons
(1):
ItalianoVD

Testarossa (1): Dunnstral

VC 1.07 wrote: Elements (4):
Andresvmb
,
Duchess, Reformed Toxic Player
, Dunnstral

Reformed Toxic Player
(2): Battle Mage,
Datisi

midwaybear
(1):
ItalianoVD

ItalianoVD
(1):
Harumi Ayasato

VP Baltar
(1): RLotus
RLotus (1):
VP Baltar

VC 1.11 wrote: Elements (4): Dunnstral,
VP Baltar,
RLotus, Battle Mage

maxwell
(2): Elements,
Datisi

Reformed Toxic Player
(2):
Green Crayons
,
ItalianoVD

Green Crayons
(1):
maxwell

VP Baltar
(1):
Duchess

Duchess
(1):
Reformed Toxic Player

RLotus (1):
Andresvmb

D1 FINAL wrote:
ItalianoVD
(7):
Reformed Toxic Player
,
Datisi
, RLotus,
VP Baltar,

midwaybear
,
maxwell
,
ItalianoVD
<--EXECUTED

maxwell
(1):
Green Crayons

Green Crayons
(1):
Andresvmb

midwaybear
(1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage

VP Baltar
(1):
Duchess

RLotus (1): Elements

VP created VC to capture peak of Dunn wagon wrote: Dunn (5): RLotus,
VPB, Datisi,
Elements,
Green Crayons

midwaybear
(2): dunn,
maxwell

maxwell
(1): momrangal

VC 2.03 wrote:
Cookie Monster
(3): DrippingGoofball,
Andresvmb,

Green Crayons

Green Crayons
(2): Momrangal, Dunnstral

midwaybear
(2):
maxwell, VP Baltar

VP Baltar
(1):
Cookie Monster

Dunnstral (1):
Datisi

VC 2.04 wrote:
midwaybear
(5):
maxwell, VP Baltar, Datisi,
Dunnstral, DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster
(2)
Green Crayons,

Cookie Monster

Green Crayons
(1):
Momrangal

VP Baltar (1): Andresvmb

Final VC on D2 wrote:
midwaybear
(6):
VP Baltar, Datisi,
Dunnstral,
Andresvmb
,
Green Crayons,
Momrangal <-- EXECUTED
Dunnstral (2): RLotus,
maxwell

VP Baltar
(1): DrippingGoofball

Cookie Monster
(1):
Cookie Monster

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:16 am

My gut says there is weird movement between Lotus and Dunn's votes this game. I also still think the Elements wagons are illustrative of SOMETHING, but I'm not entirely sure.

DGB, you want to run that post through the ol' scumputer and read me the dot matrix print out?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:21 am

Anyone else who has thoughts is welcome to comment of course.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:31 am

In post 3267, DrippingGoofball wrote:Duchess wagon (5) prob has an another scum on it.

lol, you scum claiming. That's you silly!

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:32 am

Unless you're saying Datisi is scum, which ... just don't think that's the case.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:38 am

I mean, VC 1.11 kind of makes me thing DGB is town. Could be a bus, but weird bus if so because there were a bunch of town on the previous wagon, and I'd think that would make scum start to sweat if they were thinking about bussing.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:23 am

Thanks for dumping the hood stuff, Dats.

Kind of just reinforces my townbloc thinking already. GC seems to bring up Elements/DGB a reasonable amount, but I can't tell from those comments if he's trying to push there or get you to town read that slot.

Seems obvious to me he was trying to get you to change your read on me though.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:33 am

In post 3282, RLotus wrote:they are psychopathic

I'd be hella jealous of that scum play.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:47 am

I'm thinking Dunn and DGB/Elements are not the same alignment by looking at the vote counts.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:56 am

andres, where are you at on Datisi? You have to see he's town, right?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:09 am

In post 3301, RLotus wrote:meh

I thought you were fine with being yeeted today?

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:13 pm

In post 3320, Dunnstral wrote:It's weird that rtlotus and dgb casually mentioned that they both have each other as scum or probable scum but only have eyes for me right now

Probably worth going back to see where each was on the others' scum list in recent days.

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:29 pm

Dunn coming in hot. I'm on board

VP Baltar · Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:34 pm

In post 3325, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 3288, VP Baltar wrote:I'm thinking Dunn and DGB/Elements are not the same alignment by looking at the vote counts.
You sure?

I'm thinking back to how Elements unvoted me when I got to l-1

It could be. Could be scum flinching too. I'm more just looking at the times y'all were voting each other early game. Seems like if elements was town, that d1 wagon with all town would have been jammed through.

Although, scum seemingly tried to avoid the Italiano yeet, so...

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:42 pm

In post 3337, Momrangal wrote:Err..

Well...

@VPB talk to me about your friendly neighbor hard soft-claim whatever you want to call it

In the what now?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:45 pm

In post 3339, Dunnstral wrote:Who is the other two

Who was this Q addressed to?

VP Baltar · Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:09 pm

Dgb and Mom are the scum I think

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:53 am

I'm VT

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:57 am

In post 3364, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 3361, Datisi wrote:me: please don't speedyeet while i'm gone
y'all:

dgb, why did you hammer?
I didn't realize it was the hammer but I thought Lotus was scum. His post-hammer posts were townie though.

Who are the scum today?

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:59 am

In post 3359, Momrangal wrote:
In post 10, VP Baltar wrote:VOTE: RTP

Don't believe you.

Also, what's a friendly neighbor?

In post 2065, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 2049, Green Crayons wrote:why would Baltar need to know that there was a neighborizer? what is even your thought process.

I saw Baltar's post and thought either he was just shooting the breeze, and it was worth putting out a crumb, or maybe similar to a game i just played (I believe with Baltar) where there were multiple folks of the same role (here, neighborizers) and he was trying to see if there was a similar situation
Got to say, I'm not buying this exchange.

I definitely did not see your reply as a claim of any type. I had a reason behind that post, but it wasn't about neighborizers.

Hi, I'm familiar with the exchange. I'm saying: are you trying to say I'm scum with GC because he tried to claim off a joke post from me? If so, booooooooooooooy

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:18 am

Datisi, who do you think we should flip today?

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:42 pm

In post 3373, Momrangal wrote:Also, VPB. I was under the impression that you were softing Friendly neighbor. It was the reason I had you as provisional town in this scenario.

I think that your little spat with GC was, if it is, fantastic scum theatre and the fact of the matter is, A+ scum theatre has to he the case here given no clues can be discerned from greens red flip

I was not softing. I was just joking in RVS to see if scum would react, and maybe draw a NK. It's funny to me that GC was silly enough to latch on to that and even respond in RVS. Guess I should have trusted myself that scum were most likely to think about PRs in rvs

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:20 pm

Lol I appreciate DGB kicking sand to obfuscate her buddy

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:12 pm

In post 3412, DrippingGoofball wrote:What buddy am I obfuscating now, VP?

Got to say, as hard as you are on yourself, I think you did a good job hiding your scumminess yesterday until that hammer.

you got greedy! GREEDY GREEDY GREED PANTS

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:15 pm

Scum would have been better to kill me and left andres alive if this was going to be the approach

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:08 pm

In post 3416, DrippingGoofball wrote:You probably never thought I'd vote you.

15 things I never thought DGB would do! (You won't believe No. 8)

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:13 pm

But seriously, you've voted multiple people now without a hammer, so you have to be scum.

VP Baltar · Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:27 pm

So Mom, dunn and myself haven't been hammered when you voted. I'll wait for the scumputer to finish tabulating.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:33 am

VOTE: dgb

Not going to drag this out for dgb because I believe it is burned out. DGB is 100% scum, and sorry for the draw if this hasn't been a fun game for you. I still think you're great and love playing with you. I hope your hiatus is restive and you have fun again when you come back. When you do, let me know and I'll sign up for a game with you.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:34 am

And I agree with Dunn. Let's do fast night so we can wrap this game up.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:51 am

In post 3407, Momrangal wrote:I have intent to hammer DBG

Also, this is the biggest scum claim. Intent to hammer when there were zero votes on DGB at the time I think.

Lol, ok

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:54 am

In post 3434, Datisi wrote:baltar, did i just throw?

No we're good. I think mom is the other, but I'll do some rereading to affirm.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:56 am

Lol awkward night in the neighborhood ahead.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:57 am

I have been wishing I was scum all game this game. I'd be winning a scummy if that was the case

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:00 am

In post 3440, Datisi wrote:hm?

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:04 am

Fwiw, you played a good game. I probably would have come out as caught scum and spammed the thread until I was yeeted so my buddy could hide.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:08 am

I mean, if you're town, then it has to be dunn and mom...in which case they could have hammered me overnight.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:28 am

Lol wtf. Why didn't you both just hammer me?

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:29 am

In post 3459, Dunnstral wrote:Vp Baltar, you should've finished me off while you had the chance.....

Haha, I'm so salty all the rest of town was against me.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:30 am

GG scum team.
Gutsy to claim Datisi neighborized.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:33 am

Weird play, but I guess it worked out.

Fucking andres and the dunn hate! Even I talked myself out of it after awhile dammit.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:40 am

In post 3479, DrippingGoofball wrote:
In post 3458, Dunnstral wrote:
In post 3446, DrippingGoofball wrote:I am so, so heartbroken I f'd up my last game.

I am sorry, everyone.
This game wasn't your fault. The town power roles imploded - The neapolitan and loyal roaming Doctor did, which left the voyeur useless

A lot of players had really bad (accuracy-wise) reads
My reads were trash, again. No one can town read me, again.

Fwiw, I was only super convinced you had to be scum because Datisi and Dunn didn't hammer me. It was like 12 hours and I was still alive. It only made sense

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:43 am

In post 3475, Datisi wrote:
In post 3470, VP Baltar wrote:Fucking andres and the dunn hate! Even I talked myself out of it after awhile dammit.
loool you have no idea how much i was panicking late day 2 when the wagons started shifting from midway onto dunn, with neither me or green being positioned to bus, and knowing that at any time your old scumread of dunn could've showed up

The hard thing is that site meta has really shifted away from ever yeeting lurkers.

People kept being like "what's the dunn case?" and I couldn't really make one because it was just about his D1 lurking! He would have been a good D1 yeet regardless of alignment. Instead I compromised with a scum

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:44 am

Lotus, I think you made as good a Datisi case as you could and made me reconsider. Sorry you got yeeted.

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:46 am

I thought the setup was fine and you did a good job modding. Town could have won this if our PRs hadn't imploded immediately haha

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:57 am

Wait...whats your alt?

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:59 am

Oh duchess. I can't read

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 4:00 am

Wow dang. That was a very different energy! I was like "who is this MFer tunneling the shit out of me"

Hahaha

VP Baltar · Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:27 am

In post 3513, Andresvmb wrote:
In post 3470, VP Baltar wrote:Weird play, but I guess it worked out.

Fucking andres and the dunn hate! Even I talked myself out of it after awhile dammit.
I’m sorry! I’m annoyed about it myself.

It's cool. I think it's hard for us to get on the same page early in a game. Hopefully next time we can!