Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[Raya36]

I'm not sure. That's why TBone is last in that PoE. I already went into a decent amount of detail explaining the T-Bone read though

[yessiree]

VOTE: T-Bone

I think this is the play. L-2 by my count

[Raya36]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

[brassherald]

A Council for Night 2 of Battle Mage, Artemiana and Enchant has been selected, and no votes for them will be acknowledged. They will receive a link at the start of Night 2 for their private thread.

Elim Voting 2.01

T-Bone (3):

Battle Mage, Nono, yessiree

Nono (1):

Artemiana

Raya36 (1):

mozamis

Not Voting (4):

Enchant, Raya36, T-Bone

With 8 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate.
Day 1 will end without a council or an elimination in (expired on 2021-04-12 08:50:00)

[T-Bone]

Vote: Nono

Probably the only other player at this time I can see as scum who isn't BM.

[T-Bone]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

Well it seems no one else subscribes to that, since people are lol claiming that Almost50 got me on the council and that's why I am scum. tbh I should be confirmed town based on that interaction, because A50 was waiting for someone they knew to be town to give them permission to change some votes.

But alas here we are, with that interaction, the fact that I didn't quick hammer, and the lack of no-kill.... with practically confirmed town T-Bone at L-2. (sorry just a tad bit arrogant I know, but that's where my head is at.)

But to answer your question, I think scum will distance, if they can, but they aren't going to go out of their way to fake that kind of distancing, you know? If you're thinking Moz for example, is he the kind of player to be direct with a scumbuddy? I know from this game he's the type to both throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks, but also back down when challenged (I don't mean that as an insult Moz). Does that lend itself to purposeful interaction with a scum buddy?

[Battle Mage]

You think tbone would choose to no kill know he isn't tracked?

yeah, coz:

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.
T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.
He's the only player who I recall really pushed the idea that scum wouldn't no kill (which is a nice wrinkle to make it seem unlikely that he did so).
If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).
And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.
T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.
There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.
T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

There's probably like half a dozen other reasons why T-Bone is the elim today, but I don't have the motivation at the moment to spend more time on it - partly because I don't wanna invoke the T-Bone rage.

Nono has vibed town and was on wagon yesterday so not a chance I'm going there, Raya was on wagon late so definitely not going there, Mozamis has acted more town ever since the early stages of Day 1 and the gross interplay with A50, and Yessirree has a bit of mechanical-cred in my book given the chance scum tried to kill last night. So it's T-Bone for me.

[Battle Mage]

Right now its 1:7

Last night, it was 1:7

If a kill happened today we would be at 1:6

If scum kill, they reduce the amount of eliminations needed to win by half. If yessus was killed last night,

Tbone
BM
Raya

Would probably all be suspect

But

1:6
1:4
1:2

The scum on council could safely eliminate the other two before entering Lylo

Or they could eliminate off council once before Elo and they have a solid chance to win at Elo

it depends on context though surely? T-Bone-scum in the scenario above has a life expectancy of 1 gameday, so why would he ever do it? If T-Bone scum ever kills, he'd have to kill in the on-wagon pool (which is probably why he wasn't interested in using the track-ability to try and catch/clear a prime suspect, despite taking it as a given that scum would kill).

.

[T-Bone]

Nothing but bad reasons in that post. BM is trying to distract from the fact that he's not town. Whether he is scum or 3rd impostering is up to you.

[Raya36]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

Well it seems no one else subscribes to that, since people are lol claiming that Almost50 got me on the council and that's why I am scum. tbh I should be confirmed town based on that interaction, because A50 was waiting for someone they knew to be town to give them permission to change some votes.

But alas here we are, with that interaction, the fact that I didn't quick hammer, and the lack of no-kill.... with practically confirmed town T-Bone at L-2. (sorry just a tad bit arrogant I know, but that's where my head is at.)

But to answer your question, I think scum will distance, if they can, but they aren't going to go out of their way to fake that kind of distancing, you know? If you're thinking Moz for example, is he the kind of player to be direct with a scumbuddy? I know from this game he's the type to both throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks, but also back down when challenged (I don't mean that as an insult Moz). Does that lend itself to purposeful interaction with a scum buddy?

The thing is there's enough wifom around scum!you no-killing to earn towncred and to avoid confirming a townie that it's still possible you're scum. And your plan for the actions wasn't that good which also adds to my suspicions.

More wifom I'm thinking about now though. Does scum!T-Bone who is at E-2 push me away from scumreading potential miselim!Moz?

[T-Bone]

yeah, coz:

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.
T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.
He's the only player who I recall really pushed the idea that scum wouldn't no kill (which is a nice wrinkle to make it seem unlikely that he did so).
If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).
And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.
T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.
There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.
T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

I don't even think Battle Mage buys this nonsense. Grade A Bullshit. I'll just go dash for dash.

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.

- Ridiculous, a kill last night is the only way to win if A50 is my scumbuddy.

T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.

Also dumb as shit because if I was tracked and no-killed that would gaurantee one of BM/Raya/Bone is scum and I'd get eliminated in that pool. It's almost like BM is projecting his own choice not to kill onto someone else.

Remember this when I flip town

. I would like every player to make a note of this if you make the mistake of eliminating me please.

He's the only player who I recall really pushed the idea that scum wouldn't no kill (which is a nice wrinkle to make it seem unlikely that he did so).

I underestimated how much of a coward scum would be. No killing is 100% the wrong move, it is a game losing move for scum. (unless of course ya'll keep letting BM dodge the elimination past today)

If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).

My dude, if scum tried to kill you, and if you

really thought that

, you wouldn't be pushing me as scum.

This is a BM scumslip.

And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.

The way to put me into that pool was to track me and force me to no-kill. But since you knew I was town, you decided against that so that when you pushed my mis-elim you can go 'sorry guys, I guess scum was just too afraid to kill'. You could have guaranteed my elimination by using the track on me last night if you truly thought I was scum, but you didn't, because it would then make 100% necessary your elimination as well. I mean, your elimination is still 100% necessary after I flip town. So...you should have made a kill if you wanted to pin this on me. Sucks to suck.

T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.

I don't care about protecting myself, I care about catching scum. In order to catch scum I cannot let scum get away with a miselimination without consequences. These people NEED to eliminate you tomorrow, and thus I need to break down bit by bit why everything in your case is scum motivated. Just like this point is. You are so preoccupied by trying to set up "guys I'm sorry T-Bone was so scummy" without even securing my miselimination. You made a huge mistake by not doing a kill and you're scrambling.

There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.

Here we go again, more verifiably not true things regarding A50. A50 did not get me on the council. A50 was looking for a townie to give him permission to do something, and I gave him permission. A50 was trying to climb into my pocket. Scumbuddies do not do this.

T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.

My plan would have produced confirmed scum in you so...it was actually a great plan. Your plan is the one where you get to try to wiggle out of the elimination pool. A healthy reminder that BM needs to be the Day 3 elimination.

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

[T-Bone]

I looked into the Moz/A50 interactions and idk, they seem almost too close to be scumbuddies. They both were pretty adamant about wanting the other in the council right from the start but that seems too obvious? Would scum not want to distance at all?

Well it seems no one else subscribes to that, since people are lol claiming that Almost50 got me on the council and that's why I am scum. tbh I should be confirmed town based on that interaction, because A50 was waiting for someone they knew to be town to give them permission to change some votes.

But alas here we are, with that interaction, the fact that I didn't quick hammer, and the lack of no-kill.... with practically confirmed town T-Bone at L-2. (sorry just a tad bit arrogant I know, but that's where my head is at.)

But to answer your question, I think scum will distance, if they can, but they aren't going to go out of their way to fake that kind of distancing, you know? If you're thinking Moz for example, is he the kind of player to be direct with a scumbuddy? I know from this game he's the type to both throw stuff at a wall to see what sticks, but also back down when challenged (I don't mean that as an insult Moz). Does that lend itself to purposeful interaction with a scum buddy?

The thing is there's enough wifom around scum!you no-killing to earn towncred and to avoid confirming a townie that it's still possible you're scum. And your plan for the actions wasn't that good which also adds to my suspicions.

More wifom I'm thinking about now though. Does scum!T-Bone who is at E-2 push me away from scumreading potential miselim!Moz?

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

As for Moz, I am generally convinced that BM is scum, but I can't do anything about it. While I think Moz could conceivably no-kill, I'd have to rank him under Nono. I didn't want to harp on it, but Nono has 14 posts and is very passive and also not doing anything productive. I feel like if I am wrong on BM, then Nono would be the one. I know a couple of people said 'but Nono voted A50'...but so what? He voted A50 and never posted again. Look at this.

I will think about it, just can say about Nono: He probably will continue being nonactive/imitate so. Not sure if we really should kill him for this though. Like... I want. But is this will be worth it? How possible he is mafia?

0%) am town

not mad, but disappointed my council didn't get through
wondering why there's paranoia on art,, she feels good, to me, nothing pings me
cow is town,, from my pov, would have kept me as viable lim, not townlean me,, of course, this only reinforced if i die

thinking almost, almost has played with me before,, why am i scummy, almost?

VOTE: almost

Is this someone who was convinced A50 was scum? Maybe. To me, if we're looking like partner associations, this is classic 'let me vote my scumbuddy and ask them to explain themselves so I can unvote later when I like their explanation'. But then Nono never returned and didn't have a chance.

Despite my fervor such as in my latest post, I have to look elsewhere in case I'm wrong. I have one of two things I could pursue. For many of the same POE reasons BM could be scum also apply to you (and to me). Now, part of me thinks scum!Raya would be all over my elimination without a 2nd thought. I guess it's also possible you're pocketing me, but that's a dangerous game and I think you know that...and that's why I'm not pursuing you as the alternate to BM. There's no chance (assuming I don't get mislimmed) I'd allow either of you to LimLo without a tracker clear....and I feel like scum!Raya recognizes that. I don't know if that helps you or not. If you are scum then great job in convincing me otherwise!

[T-Bone]

My list is currently BM>Nono>Raya>Yes/Moz>Arte>Enchant. Raya you are so high because POE issues with the council necessitate that. town!Raya should never have me below her top scumreads either for the same reason.

Moz/Yes are in the 'I could see them being too afraid to kill' camp, and at least Yes would have been right to do so. The fact that it has been so hard for BM to get this miselim on me gives me hope for both these players.

Arte is still kinda gut for reasons I am not able to articulate.

I don't think Enchant hammers his scumbuddy, and if he's bold enough to have actually done so, great job Enchant. (I also think scum!Enchant kills because if he's bold enough to hammer a buddy, he's bold enough to not be afraid of getting caught)

[Battle Mage]

eh, i'm done here for the day. this is my final game (on this account, anyway), no interest in it ending in things getting overly confrontational, especially with someone i respect. and equally no interest in dragging it out longer than it needs to be, by making a sub-optimal elim today. the bottom line is, every point i made was valid, and i'll leave it to others to make their decision based on logic rather than emotional appeals and hyperbole.

[T-Bone]

Regardless of your alignment, I'm not upset with you or trying to confront you beyond the confines of this game. This is a good play for scum!BM, and this game is fucking hard and I don't hold illwill to town!BM either.

[Raya36]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

[Raya36]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

[Raya36]

Despite my fervor such as in my latest post, I have to look elsewhere in case I'm wrong. I have one of two things I could pursue. For many of the same POE reasons BM could be scum also apply to you (and to me). Now, part of me thinks scum!Raya would be all over my elimination without a 2nd thought. I guess it's also possible you're pocketing me, but that's a dangerous game and I think you know that...and that's why I'm not pursuing you as the alternate to BM. There's no chance (assuming I don't get mislimmed) I'd allow either of you to LimLo without a tracker clear....and I feel like scum!Raya recognizes that. I don't know if that helps you or not. If you are scum then great job in convincing me otherwise!

You think scum!me is pocketing you right now? When I've been flip flopping on your slot?

[T-Bone]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

[Raya36]

Let's try nono

VOTE: nono
I feel like they could be scum coasting

[Battle Mage]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

[Battle Mage]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

Luckily T-Bone isn't on the council tonight, so there's a chance we do get some info - as opposed to his "not bad" plan.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

Well you're preaching to the converted here.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

[Battle Mage]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

my question is, why would town-Raya be moving away from elimming within the pool of players who didn't elim A50? I don't understand Raya's back and forth on you at all - one minute pretty convinced you're scum, the next defending you without much thought.

[T-Bone]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

my question is, why would town-Raya be moving away from elimming within the pool of players who didn't elim A50? I don't understand Raya's back and forth on you at all - one minute pretty convinced you're scum, the next defending you without much thought.

That is a feature of Raya. Unsure if it is alignment indicative or just player indicative.

[Raya36]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

The part I described isn't a bad plan. The plan is bad when he suggested using the track on someone in the council. But if we used the track on Yessiree as we did for example but didn't protect we'd have more info than we have now. I'm not fencesitting. The plan was absolutely horrible. But the part of the plan I just described was good.