Open 808: The Council Has Spoken

[Battle Mage]

HEAL: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

VOTE: yessiree

[Battle Mage]

why are people voting to heal, surely they cant have any idea of who town is yet?

i just picked what i thought would make a good council. I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan, and I feel like between us we can get a good read on Artemiana.

also I think we have to vote the council before we elim someone, so it probably is slightly a case of getting it done earlier? Otherwise scum/idiot town can hammer a wagon and we get no council.

[Battle Mage]

why are people voting to heal, surely they cant have any idea of who town is yet?

VOTE: T-BONE

Meat is murder

how do you figure you can't have a townread but you can have a scumread?

[Battle Mage]

that was rvs vote

you could do an RVS heal vote

[Battle Mage]

i guess seems a bit hasty dont want to yet

...too hasty to randomly vote for town players, but not too hasty to randomly vote for scum players?

especially when an actual vote could result in ending the day with no council.

VOTE: mozamis

[Battle Mage]

Raya36, unvote or you will get nightkilled.

???

Enchant means it.

[Battle Mage]

is your gimmick nowadays to spam the thread with nothing remotely useful?

VOTE: Almost50

[Battle Mage]

@ Battle Mage - RVS is traditonal. Seems unlikely we are going to have a quick Elim.
Why rush vote a council when we dont have to? I want the council to be solid town.
Often 3 peple do look really town, so we have a fair chance of doing that. Why do you want to rush a council vote?

I don't think it's a complete rush, but we do need to sequence properly - council needs to be selected before we properly run up any elim wagons, to avoid the risk we end up with no council. So it's not quite like a game with a hurt/heal phase and then an elim phase, but they can't run in parallel either.
Having a town council is considerably better than having scum within the council. But even having scum within the council can be informative. What I really want to avoid strategically, is having no council at all. We're a long way off that currently.

[Battle Mage]

I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan

that's great and all, but you can't possibly knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

...you're kidding right?

[Battle Mage]

i just picked what i thought would make a good council. I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan, and I feel like between us we can get a good read on Artemiana.

I am deliberately not commenting on this bad reasoning because I don't want to turn the thread into a BM vs A50 bickering duel.

probably best you don't, because:

A. it's RVS
B. the premise isn't inherently bad
C. your first ~10 posts were just spam and awkward 'jokes'. people in glass houses etc.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: T-BONE

Meat is murder

I think -if Scum- he could have easily asked his p (or the mod) in the Scum PT.

I don't understand what your post has to do with the post you're quoting?

[Battle Mage]

nothing more frustrating than open games not approached with good strategy. but i'm not a strategy expert, and I'm confident we have enough smart cookies here to avoid something moronic like accidental No-Council...

but it would also be useful to focus the majority of today's effort on finding scum, which is where there's a bit more discernment (because scum and town will be eager to get on the council, but scum will not share the same natural enthusiasm for finding scum).

[Battle Mage]

Says this..

especially when an actual vote could result in ending the day with no council.

And does this..

VOTE: mozamis

At least you got that one right

You've misunderstood. I have a council vote in play - my point was that there's no need to be MORE hesitant about a council vote than an elim vote, and if there is a difference it should be in favour of making council votes.

[Battle Mage]

Raya36, unvote or you will get nightkilled.

???

Enchant means it.

Means what? And which vote was he referring to (the "vote" vote or the "heal" vote)? And how do you know what someone else meant?

that was just a joke. But seriously, Enchant does that stuff, it's NAI.

[Battle Mage]

that's great and all, but

you can't possibly

knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

Think again.

that's a fair point. looks like a scumslip - if Mozamis was town, they would think I could potentially be scum.

VOTE: mozamis

All aboard!

[Battle Mage]

ok, almost looking town. He's posting more very freely, good luck to him if he is scum, he is playing a very good game.

HEAL: mozamis, almost50, yessiree

I legitimately laughed. Your bar for "a very good game" needs to be raised. xD

what do you think about Almost50 calling out your slip?

[Battle Mage]

You've misunderstood. I have a council vote in play - my point was that there's no need to be MORE hesitant about a council vote than an elim vote, and if there is a difference it should be in favour of making council votes.

Your council vote does not exactly "seal the deal". If you are concerned about an elimination before a council is found you should probably not vote some for elimination until the council

is

hammered.

But that's just me.. as always

that's a possible interpretation - but not mine.

[Battle Mage]

Ok, i take it seriusly now.


As we know, Council get ability to protect and track.

It will become worthless if even one mafia slip.

For obvious reason. We have 9 people and only 2 mafia. So we have pretty decent chances to create "All Town Council" right now. So while you can be suspicious, it's almost impossible to have evidence. So it's better to create council than don't create, even if you disagree with people in it.

How to choose? Well, i suggested myself and BM+T-Bone for reason. I know i'm town, and BM with T-Bone is expireinced players, who can point track and protect at right target. Though, everyone could say that.


If mafia killed, it makes tracks even more powerfull. If somehow one of mafia die,

don't eluminate

before council become impossible (Day 4), because tracks will produce confirmed townies.

Yes I completely agree with this reasoning.

[Battle Mage]

So listen my suggestion.


I'm not really happy with Battle Mage choose. I feel like he could just grab someone from scumteam. So my suggestion.


We choose one person via majority. After that, this person choose someone. And then, this choosen person will choose third one. And this will be our Council. While it's possible for mafia being in, we gain maximum info from this. Of course it somewhat strange on paper and dunno if necessary, but fun as hell so let's do. No, you can't vote for yourself.


I vote mozamis for Council. He expireinced player as well (2011), but somehow not in list of any councils. So i suggesting him.

Mozamis literally scumslipped already (revealed that the player knows I am town). There is zero chance I'm putting Mozamis in the council.

Otherwise I like the approach.

[Battle Mage]

also I'm slightly offended you think if Mozamis was town the player would be better equipped to pick a town council than me!

[Battle Mage]

I think Mozamis is scum though. What do you think about the slip?

I'd be fine with Raya picking the order

[Battle Mage]

I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan

that's great and all, but you can't possibly knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

^mozamis knows I'm town

[Battle Mage]

Eeh. Still not getting it.

You really can't know if T-Bone is town or mafia.

if I was mafia, I'd know everyone's alignment.

[Battle Mage]

It was hard to understand but finally

He assumed you are doesh't know everyone alignments, in theory claiming you to be town. Right? Well, it could be slip. Though, i find reason silly, because i assuming other players as town, unless have reasons to think otherwise.

yes that's possible. but coupled with the nervousness about heal-voting, I'd say the player is a credible top scumread.

[Battle Mage]

I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan, and I feel like between us we can get a good read on Artemiana.

I'm curious why you think that.

do you think you are easy or hard to read? gimme some self-meta

[Battle Mage]

I iz alt. Newbie I am not.

Do you really think mozamis would be so blatant about being against the council as scum like that?

Aunty Artemis thinks that that man might just feel nervous about trusting people he knows nothing about with power. What if the power is given to someone corrupt?

Pedit: this alt is fresh and new. Not gonna do it

have i played with you before?

and yes i could easily see scum struggling with the council mechanic.

[Battle Mage]

You have, yes

intriguing. what do you think about me, as a player, and meta-wise?

[Battle Mage]

I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan

that's great and all, but you can't possibly knpw whether he is town or scum yet. Best to unvote.

^mozamis knows I'm town

A little early for perspective slips, don't you think? Imo, scum are the most aware of doing these kinds of things too early. I find it much more likely to happen later when they aren't deciding how to play around with the town players and have already gotten a few Miseliminations and have gotten nice and cozy, and more daring

You may be right about scum awareness being at it's peak early, but I don't think that precludes the possibility of perspective slips. And an alternative take would be that scum are more relaxed about terminology early because they are not in any immediate danger of elimination (RVS etc.). But in any case, the principle of early posting isn't just to establish a baseline, but should be based around the expectation that people could actually do independently alignment indicative things.

[Battle Mage]

I don't think you're the most transparent player but, you do have a good gut. I (think) you're more likely to be active as town, and you're a pusher and prodded.

I also think that you have a tendency to scum read more careful/timid players

that's an interesting, and generous, assessment.

do you consider yourself a more careful/timid player?

[Battle Mage]

and yes i could easily see scum struggling with the council mechanic.

I hard disagree. I think scum would have an easier time with the mechanic than town would. Their edge of knowledge would be pretty powerful, and scum have the incentive to pocket and manipulate town so that they can get a seat in the council.

With this in mind, I would be less suspicious of mozzyman and more so with enchant who seems to be appearing pro-town

You don't think 'mozzyman' ultimately ended up doing precisely that pocketing, when making a real show of choosing who would be in their council? I think it's harder to play for scum because they get a big advantage if they get on the council, but if they make it too obvious, it can really throw the game because they wont get on the council and they'll get eliminated. So they need to find a good balance. Whereas town can be quite genuine about it - you just pick yourself and your townreads or whatever. So my expectation is, scum may be more tentative at first - not wanting to seem too eager to get on the council; hence I'm suspicious of those who were reluctant to even throw a couple random names down.

[Battle Mage]

No

But I can be calculating but may or may not appear so

I'll probably ask you to show your workings

[Battle Mage]

Understood.


T-Bone: BM, Artemiana
Almost50: mozamis
Enchant: Nono
yessiree: No Vote.
Artemiana: Battle Mage, Mozamis, Raya36
Nono: Artemiana
mozamis: Almost50
Battle Mage: Raya36(?)
Raya36: Battle Mage

BM (3), Raya36 (2), Mozamis (2), Artemiana (2), Nono (1), Almost50 (1)


Waiting of yessire. Also others can change vote/add more like T-Bone/Artemiana did.

I'll take Raya, Artemiana and Nono for that exercise. I'm townreading Artemiana, and I liked Nono's introduction, calling out an interesting subset of players in 175: Almost, Enchant and Mozzyman. No justification given, but there's certainly been some interaction between Almost and Mozamis, so it's not completely outlandish either. More importantly, scum tend not to shoot wildly into the crowd in broad daylight.

[Battle Mage]

A little suspicious of this council group this is being voted for by exactly its 3 members: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Is that suspicious? per the votecount, there is only one player voting for a council which doesn't include themselves. And yet clearly there is a need for consensus to actually select a council. So I suppose that clustering is exactly what I'd expect to happen in this setup.

[Battle Mage]

Why are you town reading each other

I covered Artemiana above. I'm pretty neutral on T-Bone. I think all T-Bone's takes so far have been about right, but not sure that's AI.

[Battle Mage]

So far Enchant, Almost, BM, Yes town.
Arte prob town.
Tbone worries me a bit.

Raya prob town as well

So scum are in:
Nono, TBone
lol i have town read everyone else
game solved then!

I liked this at first as your townreads seemed like pretty hot takes, and then it sort of fell away when you seemed to panic that you'd town-read almost all the players. Pretty skeptical the team is Nono-T-Bone

[Battle Mage]

if Mozamis was town, they would think I could potentially be scum.

VOTE: mozamis

You've got this wrong. I was saying that you couldnt possibly know whether T-Bone was town at that point. I wasn't talking about you.

I think it's you who doesn't understand where he's coming from.

Fact:

If

BM is Scum he

would

know T-Bone's alignment already. That's a given.

Fact: You said he couldn't possibly know.

My interpretation: You spoke too fast, hence the "think again" comment

BM's angle: You slipped as BM not knowing T-Bone's alignment necessitates that BM is Town, thus BM thinks you already know he's Town

My comment (which I kept to myself): That's a bit stretching it. Generalizations and short-sighted comments do happen from Town aligned players too. I mean, it's NAI at best. As Scum you would not be slipping if you said that; because Town you would have all the same.

In other words, of Town you would say it, Scum you said it trying to mimic Town you, so it's NAI

in my book.

My read on you -

aside from that

- is Town.

End of chapter. Cut. Go to commercials.

I think the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. It's definitely not impossible that Mozzy said it by mistake as town. But it is more likely to be a scum slip (accidentally revealing someone as town) than a town mistake (forgetting that scum know who town is), so I don't think it's NAI - it's scum indicative and you can debate the strength of it. It's not clear why you assume Mozamis-town would definitely say that.

In green, you seem to be arguing from a starting point that the potential scumslip is a towntell, and eventually concluding it is NAI. Which is the opposite angle to the one I was taking. Can you explain that approach?

In blue, why do you use the qualifier "aside from that"? To date, you'd only really talked about Mozamis as a townread, and your contention here is that the suggested slip was NAI, but the use of the qualifier implies you have some doubt. It's a bit strange tonally at the very least.

[Battle Mage]

A little suspicious of this council group this is being voted for by exactly its 3 members: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Is that suspicious? per the votecount, there is only one player voting for a council which doesn't include themselves. And yet clearly there is a need for consensus to actually select a council. So I suppose that clustering is exactly what I'd expect to happen in this setup.

Maybe suspicious isn't quite the right word but it seems weird that this early in the game there is already a group of 3 voting each other.

eh i don't think it's weird given it's 3 people all voting for the option which appears to give them the best chance of being in the council (and it's still pretty early!). I think it's more weird that Almost50 is not voting a council including themselves, and a bunch of players aren't voting at all.

[Battle Mage]

If you don't want BM to be in Council then just don't vote him lol.

[Battle Mage]

Why are you town reading each other

I covered Artemiana above. I'm pretty neutral on T-Bone. I think all T-Bone's takes so far have been about right, but not sure that's AI.

It doesn't feel to me T-Bone has done anything significant that's worthy of a council vote. I don't see the Artemiana explanation?

Ah yeah it wasn't really an explanation - I just said I'm townreading them. It's essentially gut and stuff I can't comment on yet.

[Battle Mage]

My hero-solve is Almost50-Yessirree. Some of their cutesy interactions so far have been a bit odd (although perhaps they know each other personally?), and independently they've both left something to be desired.

Do an ISO of Yessiree and let me know what you think?

[Battle Mage]

if we're just picking 1 person, can we have a veto of players we definitely don't want in the council?

[Battle Mage]

Yessiree has been hesitant to cast a single vote so far - either to elim or for council, but has been more vocally nervous about the council votes.

Spoiler:

why are people healing already?

The real question is why aren't you healing already?

No heal, only hurt

I'm solidly in the no-rush-in-choosing-council camp, yes-yes.

And if you think-know you're better than me, we will see-see.

why are people voting to heal, surely they cant have any idea of who town is yet?

i just picked what i thought would make a good council. I'm secretly a bit of a T-Bone fan, and I feel like between us we can get a good read on Artemiana.

also I think we have to vote the council before we elim someone, so it probably is slightly a case of getting it done earlier? Otherwise scum/idiot town can hammer a wagon and we get no council.

do quick elims happen that often?

and having a scum on the council nullifies its utility, so there is no point in rushing it

Some awkward 'jokes' with A50:

Spoiler:

HEAL: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

VOTE: yessiree

HEAL: Battle Mage, T-Bone, Artemiana

Three possibilities here:

1- Both a re Scum
2- Both are Town
3- One of them is Scum & 1 is Town

TAKE NOTE OF MY WISDOM. I'm the next guru (no offense intended @Yessiree)

I can't believe you've done this. I'm extremely mad-mad.

Wait, what am I supposed to be offended about again?

I guess no point healing until we figure out who are strongest town reads are?

This and T-Bone's opening are Town posts.

HEAL: Mozamis, T-Bone, Almost50

@Mod: Would you accept a string that is NOT the exact username if it definitely identifies that player?

(Ex: Over50)

So almost50 is a lie

Can never trust a boomer these days

Notwithstanding the earlier disagreement with the principle of heal votes, Yessiree claims to support voting for one council member, and criticising not healing yourself - whilst not healing themselves. It feels a bit like confidence growing at this point, but still not confident to throw any names out there. Motive is questionnable - does scum want to avoid alienating people by not including them in a council list, or are they incentivised to win allies by including them in a council list? I guess it could go either way, and the key is to look for a consistent narrative in that respect.

Spoiler:

HEAL: BM

I also wouldn't mind

HEAL: Mozamis
And maybe HEAL: Raya

why wouldn't you heal yourself

I do agree with Enchant's plan to appoint one council member first, on the simple basis that voting one person is more feasible than voting a three-member combination all at once

as for how the remaining 2 are chosen, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

[Battle Mage]

it feels like scum probably have more thinking to do about the council strategy - there's a big benefit to them or their partners being in there, so it's more of a political game - which might encourage more caution.

[Battle Mage]

weekend VLA - back Sunday night/Monday morning

[Battle Mage]

So are waiting for Bm to pick another member?

Yes. And he went VLA, nice combo.

So you can, i dunno, find scum/someone who you really want in council/do nothing, at your preference. I reading game right now to see, who is faking town

just seen this on my lunch - i'll

pick Artemiana for council

[Battle Mage]

I could go for BM/Raya/moz Bm/Raya/Tbone

Honestly, like idea with BM/Raya/T-Bone.

Any chance of a quick compromise on the council? I will take Raya in if you guys drop one of BM/Artem. My fear is we "might" be making BOTH Scum unkillable today, which would mean we are killing Town regardless after we finalize the council as it is.

I won't even dictate and alternative. Just pick one of Moz/T-B/yes and place them in one of BM/Artem spots.

I'll compromise with you. I've made my stance on wanting to be on the council clear, I'm flexible with whom I can be on it with. What do you want?

Well then..

HEAL: BM/Raya/T-Bone

UNVOTE:

HEAL: BM/Raya/T-B

BM will probably come back and hammer the top council anyways, oh wells

I don't like it but we need to make a decision so we can start thinking about the elimination

HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone

HEAL: : Raya36, Battle Mage, T-Bone

erm, that escalated quickly and out of nowhere... catching up now

[Battle Mage]

BM, thoughts on monkeeman?

pretty whack. A50 was the instigator for the last minute change to swap you for T-Bone...which the player voted for despite allegedly thinking I'm scum. The way that wagon steamrolled through didn't look great, although lots of info for later which is good.

[Battle Mage]

I've read 3 completed Nono games, and...none of them are remotely similar to the play here (as either alignment). So meta isn't key to solving. Generally I think posts here resonate as town, with the exception of the bold bits in this one:

can get aboard with cow, art, wolf,, seems solid, to me)
cow is happy and helpful, art is sharp, wolf feels more natural than last game
mozami, despite playstyle, leaning town

i'll be a council member, if you trust me kek,, if not, will heal townreads,, that's fine with me

quick dash need to go out,, make comments when i get back

permission to heal?

which just seem a bit nervous and awkward.

[Battle Mage]

I personally don't agree with switching out who's in the council. I think if we made a plan we should stick with it and I don't agree that BM and Artemiana are both scum

remember when I said we'll cross that bridge when we come to it? well, we're crossing that bridge now

UNVOTE:

HEAL: BM/Raya/T-B

BM will probably come back and hammer the top council anyways, oh wells

I don't understand this. A50 gave a rationale for the change (albeit, not a good one) but yessiree just cryptically sheeped it without explanation - despite townreading Arte who got cut, and scumreading and actually voting to elim TBone who got added. Nonetheless, a rueful comment at the end that I might hammer a wagon which, on yessiree's expressed reads, would have been preferable.

My current thinking is I could see both scum within Yessiree-A50-TBone.

VOTE: Yessiree

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

HEAL: BM/Raya/T-B

BM will probably come back and hammer the top council anyways, oh wells

I get that we are closing in on the deadline. With that said...

I'm supposedly your top scumread. Any scum on the Council makes it functionally useless. So...?

It was an early day 1 read. And I drew it mostly from the awkward thought speghetti of mozzyman and I thought there was some sort of scum theatre going on with the way you reacted. Not married to that idea anymore.

But you pointedly left a large wagon which included Artemiana who you claimed to townread, to join a smaller wagon which included a player you had, to some extent, scumread - even the above doesn't explain the total U-turn in opinion which your voting implies.

[Battle Mage]

I think Enchant and Artemiana look pretty good - Enchant seems to be genuinely solving for themselves, rather than just following the herd - I liked the meta assessment on me and the inferences about interactions which were low key but logical. Artemiana, it's mainly a gut feeling thing, but I'm never looking to elim there today. Raya has talked sense throughout and reacted in a credible town way to that wagon shenanigans. Mozamis has grown on me - it felt like a fairly easy scumplay to just OMGUS me, but going to the other extreme of townreading me for attacking the player rings as town. Also moving T-Bone down to lean-scum because he called out Yessiree for the inconsistency.

Which means something like:

Town: Artemiana, Enchant
Leantown: Raya, NoNo,
Slimtown: Mozamis
Leanscum: T-Bone
Scumpool: Almost50, Yessiree

I'd elim A50 today, but preference is Yessiree.

[Battle Mage]

Fuck me. W/e

it's probably worth noting this was preceded by an altslip which was then deleted - otherwise looks a bit odd out of context.

[Battle Mage]

Great way to say "I know who you are now"

it's really not a big deal to me - i didn't comment on it when i saw it, but felt i probably should clear it up after the Mod intervention.

[Battle Mage]

okey doke, yeah let's just forget about it and move on!

[Battle Mage]

there's just over a day until deadline, I'm on board with VOTE: Almost50

[Battle Mage]

As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

[Battle Mage]

Why BM? Well, he played with me and fully acknowlidged i WILL hammer.

When did this happen?

I don't remember anyone thinking that you would actually hammer

I hammered in every game with BM (one time with his ask). I dunno why he didn't warn you.

lol the only time i remember you hammering was when we were scum together and I had to persuade you to do it. I definitely don't have you down as a lolhammerer by nature. But it's fair to say the hammer and your reaction afterwards look uber-town.

[Battle Mage]

Why BM? Well, he played with me and fully acknowlidged i WILL hammer.

When did this happen?

I don't remember anyone thinking that you would actually hammer

I hammered in every game with BM (one time with his ask). I dunno why he didn't warn you.

lol the only time i remember you hammering was when we were scum together and I had to persuade you to do it. I definitely don't have you down as a lolhammerer by nature. But it's fair to say the hammer and your reaction afterwards look uber-town.

Aren't you called me mafia, when i hammered as Jailkeeper?
Or in first game, where i hammered Not_Mafia, because he deserve it?

i dont remember either of those occasions, but perhaps you're right! Although didn't Not_Mafia basically claim scum in that game? so not sure that is a lolhammer

[Battle Mage]

Me, bone, Yessiree obvious suspects (didnt vote for Almost).
I always think scum tend not to bus, particularly when there are only two of them.
Leaving Tbone and Yesiree.
If they did bus, my main suspect would be BM as if you read Almost's ISO, there is a lot of "mentionitis" from Almost about BM.
So i guess my main suspects are BM, Yes and Tbone.

I partially agree. Scum bus far too often on this site of late - in terms of the overall site meta, bussing is more common than it should be. But this is an open setup where scum are hugely handicapped if they lose 1 early, so likelihood of bussing is pretty low.

So yes, I'm looking off-wagon for A50's buddy. And of those on-wagon, a more favourable slant to those who joined later (i.e. actual bussing, vs distancing when the chance of A50-elim going through was lower).

[Battle Mage]

It's a high risk, high reward play to get partner T-bone to get a seat into the council over townie rookie goddess because come tonight, scum will now have insight to what the council is planning on doing-which makes anything they do invalid

Let's not forget that this had happened yesterday.

I want you to really think about the position T-Bone was in last night

explain?

[Battle Mage]

Also others can change vote/add more like T-Bone/Artemiana did.

OK then. My choices are unpopular it seems, but I'll add them anyway:

HEAL: Moz, T-Bone, Yessiree

One scum, two town pocket.

This is the only council he wanted all of yesterday, and in all votes he wanted tbone in the council above all.

Tbone was also the one that he chose to replace me with, and he was also against BM being in the council.

Yessus was clearly pocketed based on his reactions to his hammer yesterday

yeah that's my starting position too.

That said, I want to talk to at least one of you about what happened last night in depth, where scum cant see what's going on

Why you want hide it? If that's talking, i can't see how it would be secret. Track is useless. Protect as well, and if mafia hit protect, mafia already know.

So what?

The less information scum get, the better. What are your thoughts on the ideal council

I think Enchant is right here though - we don't have any useful info that mafia don't know, so we may as well say.

Like guys

I would appreciate it if everyone didnt ignore the big ol wolly mammoth yesterday

rest assured, we discussed it in the PT last night.

[Battle Mage]

Although I guess Nono shouldnt be completely exonorated.
Almost could have bussed him, knowing the wagon was going nowhere. Maybe Nono bussed Almost early and dint have time to get off the wagon?
Lot of maybes...but stuff to ponder.

yeah i'd have to go back and re-read. same could apply to Raya who was first on? But we're probably over-thinking it.

[Battle Mage]

Since I don't see any reason not to claim our results, I shall.

Last night we tracked Yessiree and protected me. so either scum no-killed or tried to kill me. But Yessirree went nowhere, so I'm bumping them slightly down the list of suspects. We should've tested whether some players would have thought of the no-kill option (i.e. if Yesiree-scum would have killed last night, the result could clear them). Nothing really worth sharing from the PT although we had a good discussion. Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information (not that we achieved much better) and Raya being pretty balanced and moderate.

Notwithstanding, I'm going to VOTE: T-Bone

HEAL: Battle Mage, Artemiana, Enchant

[Battle Mage]

Raya jumped on after I started bringing A50 into the light, and after I placed a compromise vote on yessus.

that's better then. Although I'm not sure what to make of Raya being happy with T-Bone in the council today when T-Bone is definitely within the possible elim pool, and Raya was quite down on T-Bone even last night. I can live with Raya in council again, but prefer freshening it up.

[Battle Mage]

Let me share with ya'll the "weird plan" BM is trying to discredit and why I think he outed himself.

First off, after deliberation, we went ultimately, Battle Mage's choices for night actions. Tracking yessiree, protecting Battle Mage. Not my favorite course of action (as you'll see why in a second).

I wanted to protect no one, precisely to prevent what has happened to open Day 2 (WIFOM over the no-kill).

I'm not sure if it's really WIFOM? It's uncertainty between 2 scenarios - scum no killing or scum killing me. Had we not outted the no-kill rationale instantly, we could have sorted between players who theoretically might have no-killed (presumably the majority?) and those who wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, last night wasn't hugely informative, and I'm not selling it as such. But it was clearly better than your plan which was to just not use the abilities at all and guarantee no information.

I wanted to protect no one and track one of myself/Raya/BM. Why did I want this course of action? Because if someone got killed, it cleared whomever we tracked. If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum (which from my perspective as town is an auto-win on Day 2 or 3).

I'm being kind with "weird plan" out of courtesy, but I'm genuinely baffled that you're still pitching this as a good idea after both Raya and I explained last night why it wasn't. Firstly because, as Enchant noted in the first post of the day, no-kill was a reasonable play for scum, especially if they were off-council and didn't want to risk being tracked to the kill (i.e. a no-kill doesn't prove anything about the alignment of council members). Secondly, tracking within those on the council is pointless because if one of us was scum, we would 100% just no-kill knowing we were tracked. Thirdly, not using the protection would be a complete waste, given there are highly likely town who would be obvious NK targets.

Now of course, there are risks to that plan. One of you all could decide to no-kill. I felt that was highly unlikely given the information we had (namely 1 scum vs 7 townies, no-killing does nothing for your win condition). But there are risks with every plan.

if any of us was scum and agreed as the track-target, we would know we were going to be tracked and not-kill, obviously. anything else would be game-throwing.

Anyway from my perspective, BM was against a plan that could have potentially either cleared myself or Raya, or confirmed that one of the three of us was scum to the rest of you. To be fair this plan wasn't Raya's preference either, so I won't speak for her whether she would have been okay with this idea.

Your idea wouldn't have proved anything either way, and Raya agreed, which is why we decided collectively (i.e. this wasn't a BM-decision) to actually use our abilities.

The fact that BM is trying to discredit me based on conversations that none of you can see is ridiculous. That's not something town would do.

I refer you to Jigsaw's Revenge (large theme game), where I was in a neighbourhood and tunnelled all my fellow neighbours to death. It was a trainwreck, but the principle remains of not trusting people blindly because you're in a non-AI PT with them. Also, it isn't just me who can attest to what was said - Raya was there too. And you have like, admitted what I was said was true, so what's the issue?

BM is also trying to explain away the kill by saying he got targeted (another reason I wanted to protect no one so no one could claim this).

On the contrary, I'm not. I've been clear that I think no-kill is a reasonable possibility, although the reason for using the protection on me last night was also because there was a reasonable chance I would be killed. I was actually the first person to flag the prospect of scum no-killing in the PT.

The Doctor ability in this set-up is a red herring, since three people know the outcome of that action each night.

And yet you don't realise that also applies in the same vein to the tracker ability?

I feel like BM's shade of my plan, calling it weird and saying it would provide no information, comes from BM understanding that his plan would provide no information (and was designed as such to provide no info). I feel like his goal is to make you think scum tried to kill him so he can earn a soft clear for a few days. That is what I get from his posts, especially the one I quoted.

As noted above, I was the first person to emphasise the prospect of scum no-killing being a likely outcome - it was you who has argued that it is unlikely - so it doesn't make sense that I'd be using the fact I got protected as a means to towncred. Additionally, why would hypothetical BM-scum need a soft clear for a few days? I'm not likely to be elimmed in the near future given we need to work through the off-wagon pool. I'm not following your logic here at all - not only is it wrong, but it also doesn't make much sense and feels like a real long shot from your perspective. Which in turn, doesn't look great because, in a T-Bone-scum world, you need to chase eliminations from the people on the A50 elim.

Notwithstanding any of the above, I don't know why you're acting so defensive now about an idea which you relented on so easily last night (presumably recognising that it wasn't the most robust)? If you're town, this game should be an easy win, and surely you realised that being in the council (thanks to A50) wouldn't clear you from suspicion.

[Battle Mage]

So T Bone is town then. Ridiculous "effort post" from ScumTbone! otherwise, Can't really see it. Town.

I mean if TBone is scum, TBone has to effort right? T-Bone is one of 3 players off-wagon, the likelihood is that 1 of them is scum, and so T-Bone would need to both turn around opinion on himself, and try to shade people who elimmed his hypothetical partner.

I definitely drew the opposite conclusion to you here.

[Battle Mage]

Kill me now lol

if you're scum, you can legit just concede here. it's pretty much unwinnable.

Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information

I see you and T-Bone as both town. I suspect T-Bone is cross with you for crticising him, hence his vote for you.
But why your vote on T-Bone, his plan didnt sound scummy? Maybe wrong, I dont know, but not scummy?

Anyway, brace yourself people for two of the games big egos pulverising the fuck out of each other...
Town v town.

I can sort of buy the idea that T-Bone is just aggressively OMGUSing anyone who criticises him, but even the vibe of that doesn't ring as town in a game where, it really wouldn't matter that much if T-Bone was town and got mis-elimmed. But there are other anomalies I've pointed out subsequently. The plan is scummy because it guaranteed depriving us of any information, and the premise on which it was based was logically flawed (i.e. no-kill means council-scum), and setting up elims under false pretenses is scummy, in a context where T-Bone scum would basically have to do something bold to have a chance of winning.

In other words, it's the kind of 'wrong' which absolutely fits the profile of T-Bone-scum.

Also I'm not sure T-Bone or I are particularly big egos?

[Battle Mage]

problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

I think I've explained this above now, but to reiterate it makes zero sense in this setup, and this situation to NOT use the tracker ability when it is effectively a cop. I'm less precious about the protective, but it does seem a bit counter-intuitive to give scum a free-kill.

[Battle Mage]

As expected, mafia just skipped.

Well. We can get around 3 free elims, before setup turn in vanilla. So, let's choose Council and kill someone.

Yeah I think that's likely, but not guaranteed. Although I think there was some marginal sorting value in not spelling it out.

For that to actually happen, 4 players will have to throw the game first, and the 5th player insane enough to hammer both

throw the game is an interesting choice of phrase.

I'd be ok with any of these councils

HEAL: BM, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, TBone, Enchant
HEAL: Raya, BM, TBone
HEAL: Raya, BM, Enchant

why Raya-TBone-Enchant? Nothing about yesterday or last night makes me feel better about TBone alignment-wise.

T-Bone knew who we as a council chose to track and heal. That means scum!T-Bone knew he was not being tracked and was safe to make a kill. Scum!T-Bone also knew who to avoid because he knew who was being healed.

1) T-Bone is scum and had a perfect clear and safe shot but chose not to for the towncred because it doesn't make sense to not take that shot in his position for any other reason. Especially knowing he may not be in the same position again.

2) T-Bone is simply just town.

I don't think that's an unreasonable inference to make, but the fact you're making it, is itself vindication of the strategy in scenario 1. I feel a no-kill makes marginally more sense for T-Bone-scum than you-scum, because TBone was desperately needing the towncred after how Day 1 played out, whereas you weren't (and could afford to make the kill).

So I think your logic speaks more to a T-Bone who is aiming to make it to Day 3/4 only, but not a T-Bone who wants to win.

Regardless, I'm hard declining any Council with T-Bone (or anyone off-wagon) in it. I'm open to hearing alternative pitches on the elim today.

[Battle Mage]

problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

Nice job hammering town. Guess we know who's scum after all!

ugh no.

HEAL: Tbone, enchant, arte

nope

What motivation Mafia-Almost50 have to remove Artemiana from council? If she is mafia, it's nonsense.

This is a really good point that I overlooked

yes that's true

[Battle Mage]

Since I don't see any reason not to claim our results, I shall.

Last night we tracked Yessiree and protected me. so either scum no-killed or tried to kill me. But Yessirree went nowhere, so I'm bumping them slightly down the list of suspects. We should've tested whether some players would have thought of the no-kill option (i.e. if Yesiree-scum would have killed last night, the result could clear them). Nothing really worth sharing from the PT although we had a good discussion. Main point of interest was T-Bone coming up with an odd idea for the night actions which would have guaranteed us no information (not that we achieved much better) and Raya being pretty balanced and moderate.

Notwithstanding, I'm going to VOTE: T-Bone

HEAL: Battle Mage, Artemiana, Enchant

skimmed to this point, felt I had to ask - you decided to track me? Me, who was squarely in A50's pocket day 1

it was a choice of 3 people who didn't elim A50. Mozamis grew on me as Day 1 closed (and has continued to do so today), and T-Bone was on council so we couldn't target him. But the fact you didn't move last night counts for something.

[Battle Mage]

HEAL: Battle Mage, Enchant, Artemiana

[Battle Mage]

problem with 602 (above) is t-bone's no doc plan is not bad, getting info on whether it's no-kill or not is useful,, it's just not useful for much else
painting it as that piviotal,, don't think it should be, leans scum
this i don't understand,, perhaps explained by perspective difference

If no one got killed, then it basically confirms one of us as scum

I think I've explained this above now, but to reiterate it makes zero sense in this setup, and this situation to NOT use the tracker ability when it is effectively a cop. I'm less precious about the protective, but it does seem a bit counter-intuitive to give scum a free-kill.

Are you trying to suggest I didn't want to use the track?

I'm not "trying to suggest" anything - you have already acknowledged in this thread that you wanted to use the track on somebody within the council, which is tantamount (well, not quite, but almost) to not using it.

[Battle Mage]

catching up tomorrow night

[Battle Mage]

You think tbone would choose to no kill know he isn't tracked?

yeah, coz:

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.
T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.
He's the only player who I recall really pushed the idea that scum wouldn't no kill (which is a nice wrinkle to make it seem unlikely that he did so).
If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).
And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.
T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.
There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.
T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.
I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

There's probably like half a dozen other reasons why T-Bone is the elim today, but I don't have the motivation at the moment to spend more time on it - partly because I don't wanna invoke the T-Bone rage.

Nono has vibed town and was on wagon yesterday so not a chance I'm going there, Raya was on wagon late so definitely not going there, Mozamis has acted more town ever since the early stages of Day 1 and the gross interplay with A50, and Yessirree has a bit of mechanical-cred in my book given the chance scum tried to kill last night. So it's T-Bone for me.

[Battle Mage]

Right now its 1:7

Last night, it was 1:7

If a kill happened today we would be at 1:6

If scum kill, they reduce the amount of eliminations needed to win by half. If yessus was killed last night,

Tbone
BM
Raya

Would probably all be suspect

But

1:6
1:4
1:2

The scum on council could safely eliminate the other two before entering Lylo

Or they could eliminate off council once before Elo and they have a solid chance to win at Elo

it depends on context though surely? T-Bone-scum in the scenario above has a life expectancy of 1 gameday, so why would he ever do it? If T-Bone scum ever kills, he'd have to kill in the on-wagon pool (which is probably why he wasn't interested in using the track-ability to try and catch/clear a prime suspect, despite taking it as a given that scum would kill).

.

[Battle Mage]

eh, i'm done here for the day. this is my final game (on this account, anyway), no interest in it ending in things getting overly confrontational, especially with someone i respect. and equally no interest in dragging it out longer than it needs to be, by making a sub-optimal elim today. the bottom line is, every point i made was valid, and i'll leave it to others to make their decision based on logic rather than emotional appeals and hyperbole.

[Battle Mage]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

[Battle Mage]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

Luckily T-Bone isn't on the council tonight, so there's a chance we do get some info - as opposed to his "not bad" plan.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

Well you're preaching to the converted here.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

[Battle Mage]

I was discussing the possibility in laying out the POE from the council. Gun to my head I think scum!Raya has more incentive to not think twice about my miselim if I'm being honest. Fair play to you if you are and didn't go for it.

my question is, why would town-Raya be moving away from elimming within the pool of players who didn't elim A50? I don't understand Raya's back and forth on you at all - one minute pretty convinced you're scum, the next defending you without much thought.

[Battle Mage]

The last thing T-Bone-scum needs is more conftowns, which would have resulted if he killed (yessirree would be conftown). If T-Bone is scum, the smart play for him would be to no-kill if he has designs on actually winning.

- Ridiculous, a kill last night is the only way to win if A50 is my scumbuddy.

I've already explained why that isn't the case, and why strategically your optimal play was to no-kill (which if you're scum is obviously what happened). Given what we eventually decided in terms of protect/track, if you killed last night, you'd be throwing the game.

T-Bone was advocating for himself to be tracked at one stage during the night, which is consistent with him not planning to actually kill.

Also dumb as shit because if I was tracked and no-killed that would gaurantee one of BM/Raya/Bone is scum and I'd get eliminated in that pool. It's almost like BM is projecting his own choice not to kill onto someone else.

Remember this when I flip town

. I would like every player to make a note of this if you make the mistake of eliminating me please.

No it wouldn't T-Bone, and I feel like we've discussed this ad nauseum. If you won't take it from me, perhaps listen to Enchant who made the same points about no-kill. Or alternatively, consider that your own suspicion of me contradicts your position here. It's not "dumb as shit", it's just simple logic.

If scum didn't no kill, they tried to kill me. So either scum no-killed or I'm town. Nonetheless, T-Bone is pushing me as scum (which implies scum no-killed, meaning his original logic was invalid, but he refuses to acknowledge that).

My dude, if scum tried to kill you, and if you

really thought that

, you wouldn't be pushing me as scum.

This is a BM scumslip.

I think it's a possibility, in the same way as it's a possibility that you're scum. I'm not so conceited that I assume I'm definitely right about you, and so there remains a possibility that you and Raya are both town, and scum did try to kill me last night. But even saying that feels unlikely, because why does A50 advocate for, and approve a council which doesn't include their scumpartner?

In any case, painting this as a 'scumslip' is poor.

And why is T-Bone-scum motivated to elim me? T-Bone-scum is within a pool of 3 (non-A50 voters) which likely contains the final scum, and needs a mis-elim or 2 outside of that to have a chance. In contrast, pushing me makes no sense for T-Bone-town who is a highly experienced and capable player, and not somebody who would be over-thinking or over-playing here.

The way to put me into that pool was to track me and force me to no-kill. But since you knew I was town, you decided against that so that when you pushed my mis-elim you can go 'sorry guys, I guess scum was just too afraid to kill'. You could have guaranteed my elimination by using the track on me last night if you truly thought I was scum, but you didn't, because it would then make 100% necessary your elimination as well. I mean, your elimination is still 100% necessary after I flip town. So...you should have made a kill if you wanted to pin this on me. Sucks to suck.

Nice try, but you were already in that pool by virtue of your vote yesterday. We couldn't achieve anything by tracking you last night. So we tracked another player within the PoE to confirm/clear them as scum. I'm completely baffled that you're claiming not to understand how the setup works, and Raya is not being clear about the optimal and sub-optimal approach to using the abilities - instead just trying to avoid taking a position against a loud player.

T-Bone's attitude (a pre-occupation with protecting himself, rather than a meaningful focus on scumhunting) is not what I'd expect from town in a game where a win is virtually guaranteed.

I don't care about protecting myself, I care about catching scum.

I've seen scarcely any evidence of that all game. Your focus during Day 1, Night 1 and Day 2 was entirely about how to get yourself on the council and how to minimise the amount of people accusing you.

In order to catch scum I cannot let scum get away with a miselimination without consequences. These people NEED to eliminate you tomorrow,

because I called you out? and you hoped you could silence me last night? I wonder if Raya will accurately recount your comments last night in that respect?

and thus I need to break down bit by bit why everything in your case is scum motivated.

Which is completely redundant because I'm town, and there's no substance or credibility to your suggestion otherwise. So in the event you were town, remind me what scum-hunting you've done?

There is no motivation for A50 to push T-Bone so hard into the council if they aren't scum together, given A50 barely did anything else of note in the game. A50 is a pretty straightforward and direct player, so fairly unlikely it was a double-bluff. It's possible A50 would use that as a means to buddy up to a townie who could be manipulated, but T-Bone feels pretty low down the list of players who would fit that profile.

Here we go again, more verifiably not true things regarding A50. A50 did not get me on the council. A50 was looking for a townie to give him permission to do something, and I gave him permission. A50 was trying to climb into my pocket. Scumbuddies do not do this.

This is a false claim - it's not "verifiably not true" - it's unclear and an assertion. You've glossed over the substance of my point above, which is that if A50 was trying to manipulate somebody, why would he choose you? And why does he sign off on a council which includes no scum?

T-Bone was very keen last night to keep Raya and I from criticising him the following day, despite his plan which didn't stand up to scrutiny.

My plan would have produced confirmed scum in you so...it was actually a great plan.

I'll reiterate again, as I think the point is getting lost in the emotional bullshit.

Last night, scum either no-killed or killed me.
If it's the latter, I'm town.
If it's the former, tracking me (or anybody) would have made no difference to anything (in which case our abilities were redundant anyway).

Your plan was objectively a bad plan, and there is no argument that will ever convince me otherwise.

Your plan is the one where you get to try to wiggle out of the elimination pool. A healthy reminder that BM needs to be the Day 3 elimination.

I was never really in the elimination pool? At least I was pretty low down the pecking order, given my vote yesterday and evidenced by my inclusion on the council. I think you've picked a bad fight here but you're not able to U-turn to a more viable mis-elim off-wagon (although I can see from recent posts you are trying to shift to Nono?).

[Battle Mage]

alright i'll re-read Nono then. While I do, can you talk me through why Nono bussed A50? Because it seems to me like Nono's name is being thrown around without much substance backing it up.

Read T-Bone's post about this. What he said about this makes sense

oh I will, but I'd like to get a position from you?

[Battle Mage]

I don't think T-Bone-town pushes so hard to get on the council, only to then want to not use the abilities.

Look at this flat out lie! Raya can even verify this! Town doesn't lie like this! @Raya please remember BM keeps repeating this lie. Please confirm it in case BM kills you tonight.

Yes, I'll confirm this. In the council thread T-Bone's plan was to use the track and not the protect which in itself isn't a bad plan, and he was also willing to use the protect too if we wanted to. He never not wanted to use the abilities.

No Raya, he said he wanted to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody in the council (which in my view is tantamount to not using it, because it means you have zero chance of actually catching scum making a kill). This isn't about truth or lie, it's about interpretation. My interpretation is that the whole mechanic of this game is designed so the council exploits the power roles at it's disposal, and with 1 scum dead on Day 1, there is no reason to adopt a sub-optimal approach.

So you are being unduly generous by saying it "in itself isn't a bad plan", because it IS a bad plan. The only GOOD plan would be one which allows the town to avail itself of the firepower at it's disposal to try and secure victory. The variables are who to target with those abilities, but no council in it's right mind should be tracking someone in the council who will know they are being tracked. Which is what you also concluded last night, so I'm not sure why you're reverting to sitting on the fence here now.

I don't like the way this is being misconstrued as a matter of 'fact' when it isn't - but it is a pretty straightforward matter of judgement. I can understand that from T-Bone, who hasn't given himself much room for manouevre beyond tunnelling me. But can you explain why you didn't correct T-Bone on this? Or alternatively, talk me through how my assessment of events is incorrect?

The part I described isn't a bad plan.

The plan is bad

when he suggested using the track on someone in the council. But if we used the track on Yessiree as we did for example but didn't protect we'd have more info than we have now. I'm not fencesitting.

The plan was absolutely horrible.

But the part of the plan I just described was good.

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council -

which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town?

Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have

more

information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

[Battle Mage]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but

he was still wanting to use the abilities.

Not quite right though - you've already acknowledged he was only wanting to use 1 ability, and his proposal was to use it in such a way that it couldn't result in a genuine red-check - forgoing the advantage town has. Would it be unfair for me to argue your post here is actually misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention?

I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

Do you think you cleared up facts? I feel that the fact you had to explain that the position in that post did not reflect your overall sentiments (albeit to me, although few others are around) on T-Bone's plan was very misleading and (perhaps inadvertently) supported the misconception he is pushing about his proposed course of action last night - which is in turn, the basis for his case on me. You've been clear subsequently, but only when I've pushed you and it feels a bit like you're bouncing between people to find the path of least resistance.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

That isn't more info - it's different info as I previously said. What you're describing above is a challenge that you have some information but you're not sure what it means, and so you'd prefer to have different simpler information, even though it has less bearing on working out who is scum. Don't you think it's potentially useful and valuable to have information which suggests a theoretically lower likelihood of 2/3 of your potential scumpool being scum? Surely that's useful information to guide your decision today. And in the alternative scenario you posit, you'd be making exactly the same decision (i.e. me and yessirree clear, therefore T-Bone is final scum)?

In other news, I'm sad that you think a benefit of me dying would be that you don't have to talk to me. This isn't a 1v1 from my perspective.

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

[Battle Mage]

Raya at least looking like they are trying to help town and solve the game.
VOTE: NONONO

Take a look at the quick interactions analysis I did. I don't think nono makes sense anymore

you think NoNo is town, but you're leaving them at -1 here?

[Battle Mage]

I'm not vibing with this at all...

[Battle Mage]

yo Raya, why you still leaving your vote on Nono...?

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

heh, yeah I thought you might say something like that. Consider my answer similarly caveated then.

[Battle Mage]

Can you explain then why you made a response beginning "Yes, I'll confirm this" in post 715, which did nothing to either commit to your own view, presumably only served to keep T-Bone happy, and in fact obfuscated the reality of what happened, which is T-Bone proposed using the abilities in a sub-optimal way, despite pushing hard to get himself on the council - which was the original point I made and find difficult to justify from the perspective of T-Bone-town? Because I feel like your post 715 gives an impression of supporting T-Bone's position and undermining my core argument aforementioned, which doesn't really accord with your view here. I.e. why did you not just say what you actually thought, instead paying lip service to T-Bone's inaccurate claim that I lied about the demerits of his plan? I know I'm prone to hyperbole at times, but only 3 of us can account for what was said last night - clarity is key.

As an aside, if we had used the track as we did, but failed to use the protect, we would not necessarily have more information (and certainly not from T-Bone's vantage point, given his insistence that I'm scum), just different information. We would either know that scum no-killed, which is not really useful information, or we'd know that Yessirree is town but I'd be dead. I'm not sure either of those scenarios put us in a better position than we are now.

Because the way you wrote it was misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention. His plan for the abilities was not optimal but

he was still wanting to use the abilities.

Not quite right though - you've already acknowledged he was only wanting to use 1 ability, and his proposal was to use it in such a way that it couldn't result in a genuine red-check - forgoing the advantage town has. Would it be unfair for me to argue your post here is actually misleading to anyone not on the council or maybe not paying as much attention?

But he was still intending to use an ability which is not what you claimed. And yes, that would be unfair.

You suggested above he was still wanting to use "abilities" plural. When he was only wanting to use 1, and he was expressly intending to use that 1 in the least valuable way possible. So I disagree - you have not been at all clear on this, and in doing so you've undermined an argument of mine against T-Bone (that he was determined above all else to secure his own place on the council and then did not act in the town's interests when given that opportunity), which interestingly you haven't engaged with....instead briefly running up Nono, to then backtrack under minimal pressure...and still not voting T-Bone despite claiming he is your top suspect.

I didn't say it to keep T-Bone happy and I've already said my views. I said it to clear up the facts in yours and T-Bone's 1on1 for anyone not aware of the context first-hand.

Do you think you cleared up facts? I feel that the fact you had to explain that the position in that post did not reflect your overall sentiments (albeit to me, although few others are around) on T-Bone's plan was very misleading and (perhaps inadvertently) supported the misconception he is pushing about his proposed course of action last night - which is in turn, the basis for his case on me. You've been clear subsequently, but only when I've pushed you and it feels a bit like you're bouncing between people to find the path of least resistance.

I think both of you are being misleading, and even if I was not perfect I did clear it up the best of the 3 of us.

I disagree. T-Bone was actually clearer than you, in that his position was unambiguously misleading, whereas yours was somewhat misleading, and it took some probing to work out where you stand. I don't want to over-emphasise the importance of this though, as it's probably minimal.

It would give us much more info. If we knew scum no-killed for fact then I wouldn't be doubting the possibility of yessiree being scum, but instead I'm giving yessiree some credit because they have a higher chance of being town due to that lack of info. If you died and it wasn't yessiree then we would now have yessiree out of the already small pool and we while this sucks for you, we wouldn't be having this particular 1v1 and you would be one less person in the pool too.

That isn't more info - it's different info as I previously said. What you're describing above is a challenge that you have some information but you're not sure what it means, and so you'd prefer to have different simpler information, even though it has less bearing on working out who is scum. Don't you think it's potentially useful and valuable to have information which suggests a theoretically lower likelihood of 2/3 of your potential scumpool being scum? Surely that's useful information to guide your decision today. And in the alternative scenario you posit, you'd be making exactly the same decision (i.e. me and yessirree clear, therefore T-Bone is final scum)?

It's different info and overall more. We really don't have much info now without making assumptions. We had the potential of a cleared townie.

Your position is consistent with your scumpool. But I think on the face of it, me dying and confirming yessirree would have made negligible difference for most, given neither of us are exactly on the chopping block today even without mechanical confirmation. As above, this feels like a slightly moot point, but it's interesting that you are persevering with it whilst relenting quite easily on other things (of more significance).

In other news, I'm sad that you think a benefit of me dying would be that you don't have to talk to me. This isn't a 1v1 from my perspective.

I never said a benefit of you dying is I don't have to talk to you. I said that if you did die a positive outcome of that is the pool would be smaller.

That's ok. How do you normally cope under pressure as scum?

[Battle Mage]

Maybe there's too much distancing happening there. Ok so if scum didn't kill my pool is better as {yessiree, t-bone, maybe BM?}

Ok then - given we don't know if scum killed, and if they did it would clear both yessirree and me, why are you not elimming T-Bone today?

Because we don't know if they did or not. I guess just by this alone T-Bone has the highest chance of being scum. There's just too many things that don't make sense.

If we elim T-Bone today and he's town how would feel about being the elim the next day unless new info tells us otherwise. I feel like there's a very high chance your 1v1 is TvS

I was thinking of suggesting the same, but I'm not sure what to make of you proposing it. In a world where T-Bone and me both flip town, are you willing to go next?

I'll go next if we think it would provide the most info but if you and T-Bone flip town we need to be careful about who we elim next.

heh, yeah I thought you might say something like that. Consider my answer similarly caveated then.

Yeah, fair enough then

the reality is, we shouldn't be looking at you today - we should be elimming within the off-wagon pool from yesterday as mechanically the most likely scum. Losing from this position to off-wagon scum would be woeful townplay.

[Battle Mage]

I do think the likelihood is it's just T-Bone and we're all wasting time debating anything else.

[Battle Mage]

You suggested above he was still wanting to use "abilities" plural. When he was only wanting to use 1, and he was expressly intending to use that 1 in the least valuable way possible. So I disagree - you have not been at all clear on this, and in doing so you've undermined an argument of mine against T-Bone (that he was determined above all else to secure his own place on the council and then did not act in the town's interests when given that opportunity), which interestingly you haven't engaged with....instead briefly running up Nono, to then backtrack under minimal pressure...and still not voting T-Bone despite claiming he is your top suspect.

I disagree. T-Bone was actually clearer than you, in that his position was unambiguously misleading, whereas yours was somewhat misleading, and it took some probing to work out where you stand. I don't want to over-emphasise the importance of this though, as it's probably minimal.

Ok true. The plural of abilities may not have been as correct as I intended. I had no intentions to undermine you or support T-Bone. I intended to neutrally explain what happened. I've been engaging minimally in the 1v1 between you and T-Bone because I don't think taking a side will do anything than create useless noise from me, plus I'm not confident on either side. I backtracked on Nono because I realized I was most likely wrong when I looked more into interactions. It had nothing to do with pressure.

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

[Battle Mage]

Nah, we wouldn't want to accidentally give the town any useful information. A player who will go unnamed, wanted to make sure we had no information so that he could push a miselim based on that lack of information.

although that isn't true, how convenient it is for you to be able to peddle such a baseless theory, in an attempt to buy yourself an otherwise unlikely, but much needed, mis-elim.

[Battle Mage]

Here's the plan I presented vs the plan we went with. Here are the facts.

BM's plan: protect himself, track someone else. No kill last night. We do not know for sure, whether scum no-killed or targeted BM.

My plan: Protect no one. Either BM gets killed and yessiree is confirmed town...or we know for sure scum no-killed.

I like how you're trying to argue after the fact that our plans would have provided the same amount of information but the FACT is it wouldn't have. Even if we still didn't have a kill last night, the fact that we would now know for sure what scum did is more useful then the nonsense you're trying to push. Frankly, we both wouldn't be in this situation right now had we went with my preferred plan.

And since you and I both know we wouldn't be in this 1v1. Why did you want your awful plan?

lol I'm not going to explain the logic in full AGAIN, as you're objectively wrong, and we've done this topic to absolute death. In your 2 scenarios above (of which 'your plan' does not accurately reflect your actual plan, but I'll humour it), the outcomes are either: scum no-kill or BM dies and yessirree is conftown - we agreed last night the rationale for using the protect was that if someone was sufficiently likely town and likely to be killed, given the gamestate it was more sensible to protect a probable-town to give us more chance of getting extra day-elims on the PoE-pool. But a few points of information, which perhaps Raya will verify:

1. I did not have a strong preference on who was targetted (I think my original suggestion was Enchant), other than the obvious principle of us using the protect ability, and using the track on somebody who might perform the kill.

2. The ultimate decision was collectively consented, so T-Bone referring to it as unconscionable is disingenuous. I don't recall T-Bone raising significant objection to me being protected, on which nobody really expressed a strong preference.

3. It's already been stated and verified, but T-Bone's inference that he proposed Track: Yessirree, Protect: Nobody is not true, and so what he claims to be "his plan" above was not actually his plan, which makes the comparison a pointless strawman.

The fact you're still trying to argue your approach was optimal is baffling. I guess we'll see tonight, if we get that far, where Artemiana and Enchant stand on it.

[Battle Mage]

Really that should be directed @Arte and @Enchant. Please after I flip town, do not let BM bully you into using the doctor power. You all need to know tomorrow if scum intentionally no-kills or not.

haha hadn't seen this until after i posted, but my thoughts exactly! i almost hope we do go to night, just to prove I'm right. also...are you really suggesting I bullied you last night? From what I remember, I politely and carefully disagreed but nonetheless actively sought your opinion on the key decisions.

[Battle Mage]

I feel like town!BM would realize that his selfishness to be protected would now, in retrospect, realize how badly he messed up the mechanic of the set-up. It is very plain to see, how on Day 2, using the doctor is negative utility.

But you haven't even made that realization, so town!BM is unlikely.

lol it wasn't as if I made a big song and dance about being protected, so this is a very misleading account. I actually went back and checked just now - I suggested Enchant as the optimal protect, and me as 2nd pick, and Raya wanted to go with me over Enchant.

So selfishness? look closer to home. But there is an element of pragmatism in the game, and it is common sense to protect the most likely town players.

[Battle Mage]

3 Q's:

1. Why do you assume BM vs T-Bone is TvS?
2. Given your assumption BM vs T-Bone is TvS, why are you still not voting T-Bone? You were quite ready to jump to Nono earlier. Which leads me to:
3. Why did your analysis of Nono lead you to conclude Nono was town?

1) just to be clear when I say 1v1 I don't mean TvS. A 1v1 can be TvT or SvS too. I'm not assuming you're TvS when I say you're 1v1. I have said a couple time that I think you could be TvS though and that's because of the attitude and trying to discredit each other.

2) I was less confident on any of my reads compared to today and now T-Bone is at E-2 I think and I don't want him at E-1 yet. I'm leaning towards T-Bone today fwiw

3) Because I analyzed the interactions with A50 and I concluded town based on them? I don't think I understand what you're asking here. I shouldn't have jumped on nono being scum before thoroughly looking through interactions if that's what you mean.

1. Yes I understood the distinction, but was interested in what led you to the, presumably strong, TvS read - given we are 2 out of your 3 scumpool.
2. That makes sense.
3. The premise for my question was that I actually thought you put together a reasonably good case for Nono-scum, and so was slightly surprised in retrospect that it led you to pivot 180 and conclude Nono was town. So my question is, why did those interactions initially ping you as scum, but then convince you of nono-town?

[Battle Mage]

I'm glad BM has moved from 't-bone is scum' to 'I hope t-bone is town so I can convince enchant and arte to do sub-optimal things in council tonight'.

haha i did say "almost", sorry to get your hopes up!

[Battle Mage]

I'm using hyperbolic language to get my point across.

It was my mistake not to fight harder in our council topic. We'd be in a much better place had I done so.

I'd argue you're deliberately lying to paint me in a negative light and paint yourself in a positive light. Hyperbole is like exaggeration for emphasis, not saying something completely factually false with no illustrative benefit. More like hyper bollocks

[Battle Mage]

But a few points of information, which perhaps Raya will verify:

1. I did not have a strong preference on who was targetted (I think my original suggestion was Enchant), other than the obvious principle of us using the protect ability, and using the track on somebody who might perform the kill.

2. The ultimate decision was collectively consented, so T-Bone referring to it as unconscionable is disingenuous. I don't recall T-Bone raising significant objection to me being protected, on which nobody really expressed a strong preference.

3. It's already been stated and verified, but T-Bone's inference that he proposed Track: Yessirree, Protect: Nobody is not true, and so what he claims to be "his plan" above was not actually his plan, which makes the comparison a pointless strawman.

Last time I'm doing this.

1) Your first suggestion was to protect Enchant and track yessiree. You did not want to track T-Bone. Your second suggestion for protect was yourself. I didn't see you explicitly say you didn't have a track preference but you were willing to be tracked if we wanted to.

2) I suggested the actions, BM agreed,

T-Bone agreed as long as we didn't waste time arguing with him this day

, then said he was fine with using it how we suggested but wanted us to understand what his plan could do.

3) His plan was track himself, protect no one.

thanks Raya.

For anyone on the fence, the bit in bold is worth emphasising. T-Bone was content with the agreed night actions

as long as Raya and I didn't push to elim him

.

[Battle Mage]

I think killing T-Bone is... Bad decision.

Let me explain. We have tracks, as you remember. So, why not just track T-Bone?

If he is Mafia, he will skip/get catched. Either way we win or No Kill will happen.
Mafia will kill him and get rid of one of suspects for free.
Or Mafia will kill someone else, clearing T-Bone.

Why not? I find T-Bone powerful as Confirmed Townie. And stopping kill in theory could be useful.

call me old fashioned, but I'll always advocate for elimming the scummiest player on any given gameday. I'd rather we elim the top suspect today, and then use the track on the 2nd top suspect tonight. In the unlikely event T-Bone is town, it's unlikely he ever gets NKed here, and if T-Bone is scum we don't learn anything from him no-killing again.

I'm very much bought into the idea of tracking a consensus scumread, but not the top scumread because we need to elim someone.

[Battle Mage]

The problem with that is now T-Bone knows he's being tracked so if we keep him alive and he's scum then he just no kills and were back to where we started. Or scum choose to no kill to frame T-Bone. I do agree town-confirmed T-Bone would be very powerful.

Town is in a really good position right now with a lot of near confirmed town, a flipped scum, and a very small pool. If we're wrong on T-Bone then we use the info gained and I'm sure we can find the right person next day

I struggle to imagine that T-Bone scum would be killing tonight regardless, given he chose not to kill last night when he was on the council and knew he wasn't being tracked.

[Battle Mage]

I mean, do you anticipate that your partner is gonna ghost you? I don't think I would.

If not Nono though, who are you looking at and why?

There's an in between though. A50 and Nono is too much.

I'm looking at you, if not yessiree, if not BM. Everyone else has a reason to be basically clear or highly townread. We eliminate you, get info overnight, reevaluate everyone's pools.

Do you think I'm scum or not?

You're flipping me for info??? If I was scum it would end the game, no info needed.

So if you don't think I'm scum, then there's no reason to flip me. This doesn't make sense.

Are you posting like you already know I'm town? What is this?

I know I'm not the first person to say this of T-Bone, but this screams 'scum thinking they were caught for the wrong reasons'.

[Battle Mage]

I have iron reason to not eluminate T-Bone. This reason probably should be obvious, but still.

What's the reason?

[Battle Mage]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

call me prejudiced against women but I just can't see this coming from a cold, calculating and cunning woman, pitting T-Bone against Battle Mage just so she can look like a paranoid townie trying to navigate through the destruction in its wake - it's notably genuine indecisiveness that stems from a lack of information on either party's alignment, which points to town!rayas for me

I think that's a small leap. Raya had generally tried to stay out of that dispute, and when she had been involved, it was generally to agree with whoever was posting at the time. It was only later when she was brought into focus herself, that she was more actively engaged. So I don't think a hypothetical scum-Raya would have been required to do anything cold, calculating or cunning here - just use the obvious battle in progress as a route to 2 mis-elims. What stood out to me was her request that I volunteer to be elimmed tomorrow if T-Bone flips town - which fits that profile, and the narrative of scum who require mis-elims on the A50 wagon to win.

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, protecting no one was sane decision.

No matter how good and town someone looks, he could be mafia, even BM. So trading life of Townie-Townie for life of confirmed by track is insanely useful, so i don't understand what BM had.

eh fine, if i was wrong, i'll own it. my sense last night was that this game should be pretty easy, with a majority pool of probable town and a narrow scumpool, and my main thought was about blocking a kill to keep 1 more probable townie in the game to maximise our day-elims. The way today has played out so far, with the wagon on Nono, it doesn't seem that there is such a clear consensus about the townpool/scumpool, so perhaps it was wrong in hindsight. Although from my own perspective, if the decision last night had any impact, it was to save my own life, and I think my contribution today has been a net benefit to the town - especially if T-Bone is the final scum.

I don't think the protect decision has much bearing in any case, and I feel much more strongly about using the track on someone where it might result in a red-check.

Thinking back to the discussion last night, T-Bone's original proposal was for No protect, track T-Bone. Which is consistent with the idea that T-Bone never intended to kill anyway, but wanted 100% confirmation that no kill was attempted - to enable him to push the bogus rhetoric of "scum no-killing is inconceivable, T-Bone would never do that" as a means to secure some much needed towncred.

[Battle Mage]

I'm using hyperbolic language to get my point across.

It was my mistake not to fight harder in our council topic. We'd be in a much better place had I done so.

I'd argue you're deliberately lying to paint me in a negative light and paint yourself in a positive light. Hyperbole is like exaggeration for emphasis, not saying something completely factually false with no illustrative benefit. More like hyper bollocks

Is this what happens when you vote people in power and have them work together? You get the most pointless, annoying, and pedantic arguments ever about He said/She said/I said/We did/We didn't/I never said/. Actually feels like I'm watching k-drama dude.

There should be an option to SACK an entire council for all being omage bollocks

welcome to democracy

[Battle Mage]

Knowing BM expireince, it would be fabricated. But i really not sure, BM would save his teammate with easy.

Hmm well whether or not I could have saved A50 in that scenario, I'd certainly have understood the setup enough to know that bussing your scumbuddy on Day 1 is effectively game-throwing. Hence I don't believe anyone would do it, hence my preference that we work through the off-wagon pool before looking at people on the scum-elim.

[Battle Mage]

Knowing BM expireince, it would be fabricated. But i really not sure, BM would save his teammate with easy.

It could be fabricated, sure, but it's a numbers game. And I think the chances of mafia not bussing A50 is higher than bussing A50. Speaking from experience, A50 also isn't a player you should get a strong read on early game, especially day 1, so from that logic, the wagon should be mostly town-driven. Also, mafia has daytalk, so I would assume any S-S interaction from A50 to be somewhat deliberate and have some direction, which isn't the case if you read A50-BM interactions, which tend to be more spontaneous.

Yeah and from my experience, A50 is not high on the list of players you'd wanna bus, even outside of the mechanics here. I don't think Nono

ever

does it (intentionally). Actually I'm not sure Nono-scum would even go as far as a soft distancing vote for A50, given the latter's character.

[Battle Mage]

Knowing BM expireince, it would be fabricated. But i really not sure, BM would save his teammate with easy.

Hmm well whether or not I could have saved A50 in that scenario, I'd certainly have understood the setup enough to know that bussing your scumbuddy on Day 1 is effectively game-throwing. Hence I don't believe anyone would do it, hence my preference that we work through the off-wagon pool before looking at people on the scum-elim.

Well. It possible, especially if mafia would choose "No Kill" tactic.

yeah but if mafia are forced to adopt no-kill tactic for 3 cycles, that's 3 mis-elims they need to secure off the bat, before they can NK. I guess it's possible they did it without thinking it through, but occam's razor etc. is they just didn't do it.

[Battle Mage]

It would honestly be easier if you all treated my posts as coming from confirmed town without needing my flip. I am so transparently town in everything I say and do. I've laid out my thoughts and reads very clearly. I'm the first person to realize how negative utility the doctor is in this set-up, when the scum-thing to do would be to not point that out. I was the one who wanted to use the council to try and narrow down the elimination pool, and it is definitely my fault for not fighting harder for that for the sake of harmony on the council. That's where I went wrong, and that's on me. But at least I'm trying to solve the game. You look at Battle Mage's posts and you can clearly see he is not interested in a solve. You watch him in the council tonight, and if you make me flip green, it would behoove you not to let him make any decisions.

I'll admit I chuckled at this. remind me next time I roll scum to defend myself with the argument "just treat all my posts as coming from confirmed town, and then you don't need to flip me".

As noted earlier, T-Bone, your 'case' on me is entirely based on a different view of what optimal night actions would have been, and subsequent tunnelling. However, it has the following critical weaknesses:

1. Raya was also in agreement with my approach last night, but you've focussed solely on me, and instead channelled your energy into buddying Raya.
2. The protect/not protect decision is itself not AI. There's no scum motivation for me to be a proponent of protecting over not protecting, given I have been the strongest advocate (besides Enchant) that scum are likely to No-Kill. And although you suggested I advocated for protecting myself specifically, Raya has confirmed I did not do so - and certainly that it wasn't part of my initial support for the principle of protecting.
3. In contrast to 2, your proposed night actions do come with a scum motive, as I laid out in post 848, and more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum killing beggars belief.

To summarise, your case on me is not grounded in anything which actually suggests I'm scum, and lacks even the most superficial credibility of an objective and impartial case.

Furthermore, to refute a few falsehoods in your post above - I've seen little evidence of you genuinely trying to "solve the game". You've scarcely engaged with anybody outside of me in a meaningful way - besides a recent attempt to run up Nono in an effort to save yourself. I don't recall any scumhunting at all from you on Day 1. Your contribution has been characterised substantially by revisionist history and bold hypocritical claims which don't stand up to even minimal factual scrutiny. In contrast to you, I've been actively scumhunting on Day 1 and Day 2 whilst being elected to council on both days, and have critically appraised a range of players - not solely working off a simply presumption of your guilt.

[Battle Mage]

3. In contrast to 2, your proposed night actions do come with a scum motive, as I laid out in post 848, and more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum killing beggars belief.

Aren't his idea was to use Track on T-Bone and No-Protect?

correct, this is "not using the tracker to try and catch scum" i.e. not using the tracker in a way where it can potentially result in a guilty-investigation.

[Battle Mage]

Raya, for what it's worth, I am a straight forward player. WIFOM is a bad tool and I don't set out to create it. Do with that information what you will.

I at least don't want you to be the elim today anymore I don't think. I'd rather go elsewhere and see what we can come up with with the info we get next night.

I can't seem to get rid of the thought that BM and T-Bone is TvS in some order and I'm being manipulated by one of you but that could just be my paranoia speaking.

If Moz doesn't make that much sense, and T-Bone is actually just town. And yessiree has a higher chance of being clear because scum could have killed then maybe nono is the best choice.

call me prejudiced against women but I just can't see this coming from a cold, calculating and cunning woman, pitting T-Bone against Battle Mage just so she can look like a paranoid townie trying to navigate through the destruction in its wake - it's notably genuine indecisiveness that stems from a lack of information on either party's alignment, which points to town!rayas for me

I think that's a small leap. Raya had generally tried to stay out of that dispute, and when she had been involved, it was generally to agree with whoever was posting at the time. It was only later when she was brought into focus herself, that she was more actively engaged. So I don't think a hypothetical scum-Raya would have been required to do anything cold, calculating or cunning here - just use the obvious battle in progress as a route to 2 mis-elims. What stood out to me was her request that I volunteer to be elimmed tomorrow if T-Bone flips town - which fits that profile, and the narrative of scum who require mis-elims on the A50 wagon to win.

That's a fair analysis but you turning it around on me only swaps our positions and now what you said about me applies to yourself to some extent

aye, that's fair

[Battle Mage]

Raya. In post 855 BM once again suggested that I didn't want to use the track. Can you confirm or deny this as truth? Did I at any point ever suggest not using the track action?

lol no i think i just worded the sentence poorly - it was not an inference that you didn't want to use the track, it was an inference that you didn't want to use the track IN A WAY WHICH COULD RESULT IN A RED-CHECK. I clarified in a response to Enchant above.

this exploitative strawmanning, at the expense of actually engaging with the substance of my posts to you, is gross.

[Battle Mage]

Actually Enchant, flip me after Raya confirms this. I want the last thing you all there is BM lying about my intentions. He's trying to manipulate you all into believing I was against using both actions because I didn't want to use the doctor action. His ploy in 855 is plain to see. Flip him tomorrow and we win.

...if you really thought I was scum, would that be the only thing in post 855 you focus on? A poorly worded sentence (for which, to be clear, there is no scum motive for me to demonstrably lie about). T-Bone has been playing the game long enough to know that scum seldom, if ever, lie about things which can be readily proven factually false - so his interpretation is negative and ultimately results in...a moot point.

[Battle Mage]

3. In contrast to 2, your proposed night actions do come with a scum motive, as I laid out in post 848, and more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum killing beggars belief.

Right here, let this be a monument to BM's scum game. I apologize for all the posts in a row. This did not happen. I never suggested not using the track action.

I've answered this several times already.

In fact my suggestion was more likely to catch scum than what we ultimately did.

Err, no - this is factually incorrect. Your suggestion to track within the council literally gave us NO chance of catching scum. Which is precisely my point about using the tracker ability outside of the council.

BM is trying to imply that I suggested using no actions, right here.

This is the second time he's done so.

He's gonna post and claim this isn't what he meant in a moment. But this is what he posted, he can't take it back.

Man this is so weak You know you've distorted what I actually meant and are just trying to cheaply exploit it to get yourself off the hook. Try reading the sentence again IN FULL. Your interpretation is based on truncating it halfway through. I said you did not want to use the tracker ability

to catch scum

, not that you didn't want to use the tracker ability.

Then of course, ignore everything BM says in council tonight. It's unfortunate that he conned his way in, but it is what it is. The way council works is that anyone can confirm the actions. The last person to confirm an action is what sets the action. You don't need BM's consensus. Do whatever you think is best with the night actions to force his hand, and feel safe and secure in the fact that you do not need his cooperation, you just need to ensure either you are Arte are the last person to confirm the council's action.

lol in a hypothetical world where I was scum, it's beyond ridiculous to suggest that I would over-rule Enchant and Artemiana to singularly determine the night-actions (1 of which I think we've already pre-agreed here). Just more AtE and conspiracy-theorising instead of meaningful scumhunting.

[Battle Mage]

Either way I've caught BM in enough falsehoods, misrepresentations, and manipulations that you all should have no problem eliminating him tomorrow.

Say it with me class. 'T-Bone, we will have no problems eliminating Battle Mage tomorrow'.

Please and thank you.

In the event you are town, can you briefly summarise your case? As noted previously, I think it amounts to the fact I thought using the protect was better than not using the protect, which in retrospect may not have been optimal, and a bad faith reading of my posts where you've claimed I lied when I didn't (and of course, wouldn't have even if I was scum). None of the aforementioned is alignment indicative, so I'm sure I'm missing something significant, given your passionate conviction that I'm scum?

[Battle Mage]

V/LA until Monday night

[Battle Mage]

3. In contrast to 2, your proposed night actions do come with a scum motive, as I laid out in post 848, and more generally the idea of not using the tracker to try and catch scum killing beggars belief.

Aren't his idea was to use Track on T-Bone and No-Protect?

correct, this is "not using the tracker to try and catch scum" i.e. not using the tracker in a way where it can potentially result in a guilty-investigation.

Correct, tracking me would not result in a guilty-investigation, but it might have confirmed me as town. Glad you agree.

You may start to see why this was a problem for BM.

the problem with this is, according to your theory of me being scum, I had to have no-killed last night irrespective of the tracking (or...targetted myself). So why would BM-scum have cared if you were tracked? In fact, if I was scum, that would have been a better outcome for me because it wouldn't give another player any towncred (as Yessirree got today). Although, as previously noted, even as scum it's unlikely I'd pitch for something so conspicuously anti-town.

Are the majority really not seeing T-Bone indiscriminately throw a whole lotta stuff at the wall, with none of it sticking? And note that, despite me continually refuting every point T-Bone has pinged my way, he never gives any hint of re-evaluating his assertions or opinions, or heck, even trying to refute my rebuttal. Where's the townie behaviour here?

[Battle Mage]

Let's think about T-Bone motivation for a bit.


If T-Bone is Mafia:
So he suddenly realise, he is alone now. And his suggestion is "No Kill and Track me". So he forcing self for no-kill state. For what? If he is tracked and no one died, it doesh't confirm him at all. Could be it just bluff?

I covered this earlier. It's a narrative which plays completely into his rhetoric of "I would never No-Kill". Could that be a coincidence? Yes. But it also fits the bill as a strategy for T-Bone scum to come out all guns blazing and buy some towncred. And as noted, there's no downside as he was always no-killing anyway.

If T-Bone is Town:
Probably he acknowlidge, he in bad position from last day and can be mislynched. So his suggestion was to track him. If kill happened, it autoclears him. Would townie do that? Yeah, especially if T-Bone assumed if mafia skipped, they are idiots. So he probably sured mafia will kill someone, clear him and save us from some headache.

The problem with this is two-fold:

1. T-Bone being mis-elimmed as town isn't that big a deal for T-Bone-town. T-Bone-town is mis-elimmed, town still almost certainly wins. But T-Bone-scum is elimmed, scum definitely loses. T-Bone might have an ego, but he's also seen his fair share of mafia games and so I'd expect him to be more understanding of being elimmed here as town, and more forthcoming with actual reads which will add value to the town on subsequent days.

2. T-Bone was part of a pool of players who could have been elimmed today (the off-wagoners). Why would it be especially important to clear T-Bone, as opposed to Yessirree or Mozamis? or heck, even Nono? The self-interest here is telling - T-Bone is focussed on T-Bone and not thinking of the collective group or the collective wincon. Which is scum-indicative.

[Battle Mage]

If T-Bone is Mafia:
So he suddenly realise, he is alone now. And his suggestion is "No Kill and Track me". So he forcing self for no-kill state. For what? If he is tracked and no one died, it doesh't confirm him at all. Could be it just bluff?

This would give T-Bone some towncred even if it doesn't clear him

but would T-Bone-town be more pre-occupied with getting towncred for himself than trying to find scum? I doubt it.

[Battle Mage]

i'm not gonna read pages of town v town ego clashes.
Bm and Tbone are so effing town.
Could you guys agree to disagree and move on, vote Nono, and win the game?

Unfortunately you'll have to carry that mantle.

Either you or Enchant should hammer me. We'll lay out BM for all to see.

I think T-Bone has given up. Not even an attempt to engage with me after I cordially invited him to set out a case on me, beyond shouting "BM is scum" into the abyss.

Can we please elim this already?

[Battle Mage]

So have we lynched Nono yet? Or are we running round in cirlces, chasing our tails, and inadvertantly... quoting Coldplay.Shit lol Tho that was one of their best tunes
Joking aside, that is a danger. I feel we have clear scum in our sites, can't we elim?
#Vote Nono

am not scum, never was

almost 100% sure now, giving myself up for lim, for t-bone today,, time for trust

does anyone actually think Nono-scum pulls this card to buy another day? come on...

[Battle Mage]

meant: your vote on bone today, I’ll take responsibility if wrong,, will self-vote tomorrow, quote me on it

no reason to not go for perfect win, as is possible, today,, seeing t-bone lie so blatantly hurts, is all xD

I literally quoted you on it. But jokes aside, this is both completely true and relatable, and a good illustration of why Nono is probably town, and definitely not the play today.

[Battle Mage]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

[Battle Mage]

Enchant being killed should point to scum on the council. There's no way scum is bold, (or dumb) enough to target a council member when they know neither the tracker nor the doctor target

depends how they fancied their chances of surviving an extra dayphase? if scum didn't kill last night we'd have 7 players left, which guarantees 3 elims to hit the final scum. now we may have 2 or 3 - depending on what happens tonight, if it gets that far.

[Battle Mage]

I'm waiting for council info but as it is right now my pool is [BM, Yessiree] and if we get info telling us otherwise it would extend to [mozamis, nono]. Still feel pretty good about art.

I don't think we'll find much useful in interactions for Enchant. They were liked NKed for being near conftown

We have a greencheck, but not sure if we're claiming it - will leave it to Artemiana's judgement, given the amount of time wasted on arguing about night actions yesterday.

From the above, doesn't seem like your reads have changed at all in light of T-Bone's flip, which is interesting. Then again, seems you're not that fussy, given your pool is every player except yourself and Arte (and Arte on the basis you "feel pretty good" about them?) I'm not vibing with it after how diligently and carefully you considered reads yesterday, and the amount of oscillation then compared to static reads with 2 flips?

For me...I'll obviously be re-reading.

Not my call but I really think claiming it is a good idea. We're at a point we could really use info like that to maybe fully solve the game

The intention was not to claim, assuming none of us died. I think it's finely balanced - there is value in seeing how players behave at the start of today, with some extra knowledge. But there is a risk of information not being verifiable in subsequent days if Artemiana or I die, if we haven't claimed it today.

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum.

Why?

moz and nono are townreads also.

They're just there for if the info from the council gave me reason to believe I'm wrong about you and yessiree. My reason for art has not changed which is what I meant by I still feel good about them

I guess the better way to write it would be

Art

Moz, nono

yessiree

BM

I'm not sure that came through at all in your previous post - you were very discerning yesterday, and that seemed pretty laissez-faire.

Can you explain why a result from last night would mean you put Nono and Moz back in the pool? There is a reason I ask.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

I don't really wanna spend ages debating T-Bone stuff again today, but that's total BS - I may have been wrong but my arguments in respect of him were entirely logical and his position on me was (in hindsight) just OMGUS.

Come back to it when you have time, and we can talk it through point by point.

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

I guess it's that sort of belief which is why someone outside the council might kill on council - a risk, but maybe worth taking to get an NK on a solid town player and another mis-elim. Plus elimming 2 council members increases their chances of getting on the council. Also it becomes a bit WIFOMy, because why would scum on council kill on council if your suggestion was correct?

[Battle Mage]

Council: Moz, BM,?

I think with 6 players left, we should only actually select the council towards the end of the day, once we are approaching a consensus on the elim. Otherwise half the players have immunity which constrains our ability to properly challenge everyone.

[Battle Mage]

I did my homework and re-read Tbone vs BM, especially #710, and I find BM's reasoning for pushing TBone to be disingenuous. The kill last night also reinforces scum!BM imo.

can you talk me through both points?

It's late for me, so can't type a lot right now. But the gist of it is that your premise for pushing TBone is flawed from the beginning - it started from a misrepresentation of his motivation behind his choice of council actions and you continued down that path. In retrospect I shouldn't have skimmed because I would've caught onto it but I just didn't feel like reading walls at the time

I don't really wanna spend ages debating T-Bone stuff again today, but that's total BS - I may have been wrong but my arguments in respect of him were entirely logical and his position on me was (in hindsight) just OMGUS.

Come back to it when you have time, and we can talk it through point by point.

As for the second point, I've already explained above. Killing a council member from outside the council is inconceivable, and since you, Arte, and Enchant were the council last night.

I guess it's that sort of belief which is why someone outside the council might kill on council - a risk, but maybe worth taking to get an NK on a solid town player and another mis-elim. Plus elimming 2 council members increases their chances of getting on the council. Also it becomes a bit WIFOMy, because why would scum on council kill on council if your suggestion was correct?

I wouldn't say you were logical. The push for TBone was illogical. I would say you were rational by showing a lot of conviction in what you were saying. That doesn't mean you can't be scum, because scum can also appear to be rational, and

both you and TBone were making some valid points, so no one really picked up on the subtleties

.

I feel like if you were town, you would be more interested in re-considerikg the scumread on TBone, or at least humor the possibility of it being That.

But trust me, I don't want to torture myself to debate point by point either. And if you were scum, it'd be pointless anyway. But anywho, more later. Sleep time for me

I'm less concerned about the implications of that debate for my alignment, and more about what an exposition of your claim I was not "logical" might tell me about yours. On the blue - I'm interested in what you now consider to be the valid points vs the false premises. It feels an easy claim to make to throw shade, but is there any credible substance behind it, or are you making it up (and hoping everyone else shies away from the detail so you don't get called out on it)? On the red, can you point me to where T-Bone reconsidered his read on me, or humoured an alternative possibility? Even in spite of me pushing to engage with him on facts and logical argument (rather than AtE and hyperbole which characterised much of yesterday)? Spoiler: he didn't, but flipped town.

There's a few things I'm also struggling with where you're concerned:

1. From a quick look at your ISO, you were a keen proponent of the T-Bone wagon...right up until it looked set to go over, and then you began walking it back a bit (although not with any commanding voice or obvious intent to derail it).
2. Knowing my own alignment, I figure scum would be very keen to fan the flames on the T-Bone-BM conflict. Mozamis (the only other player who didn't elim A50) did the exact opposite - pointedly trying to foster cohesion, and has continued that approach today.
3. Your claim today that scum off-council would not kill on council, doesn't accord with your claim yesterday that a hypothetical Yes-scum would have never thought to no-kill, given that you failed to note that there is no difference between killing on-council or off-council for an off-council scum, as we had telegraphed quite clearly that we weren't going to use the protect. Off-council scum would obviously kill on-council, so drawing up a false distinction to paint that as "inconceivable" to cover for yourself is a bad look.

I'm softening slightly on Raya on the basis that, it feels weird for Raya-scum to not kill whilst on the council, and then kill when not on the council, when I'm not sure the benefit outweighs the risk for her, as it would for somebody more widely suspected.

I'd like to hear from others, but a full ISO on Yessirree will be next up.

[Battle Mage]

No my reads haven't changed too much except I feel stronger about you being scum.

Why?

Mainly PoE, T-Bone interactions, the NK being in the council as yessiree said. I can go into more detail tomorrow.

Please do, and in particular I would draw your attention to my responses to yessirree today on the NK speculation. On T-Bone interactions, at the end of the day, he was town, so there's a limit to how great I'm going to look from that. I suppose (and this was yessirree's point), it's a question of whether you can demonstrate my approach to T-Bone was logically flawed or bad faith. The fact T-Bone swore blind I was scum without giving a good reason is not a substitute for a case, and given how yesterday played out I'm even more determined that we hold people to a higher standard of argument today. So detail is very welcome.

Further to the above, we've played together a few times I think? how does my play this game compare to those other games? For my strengths, I'm not a difficult person to meta, so good to get your take on that.

I'm not sure that came through at all in your previous post - you were very discerning yesterday, and that seemed pretty laissez-faire.

Can you explain why a result from last night would mean you put Nono and Moz back in the pool? There is a reason I ask.

Nono and Moz were always in the position of being my backup pool. Nothing happened overnight that changed that. But if for example we cleared one of BM and yessiree and the other was interaction cleared, or we eliminate them and we're wrong I would then look in Nono and Moz.

yeah that's the bit which interested me: if you have a pool of 2, and 1 is cleared, doesn't that just make the other one scum? so why would your first thought be to open up the pool to 2 other players (unless you needed multiple elims)?

I'm not really sure what you specifically envisage by someone becoming "interaction cleared" in this context.

[Battle Mage]

Please do, and in particular I would draw your attention to my responses to yessirree today on the NK speculation. On T-Bone interactions, at the end of the day, he was town, so there's a limit to how great I'm going to look from that. I suppose (and this was yessirree's point), it's a question of whether you can demonstrate my approach to T-Bone was logically flawed or bad faith. The fact T-Bone swore blind I was scum without giving a good reason is not a substitute for a case, and given how yesterday played out I'm even more determined that we hold people to a higher standard of argument today. So detail is very welcome.

So basically my biggest concern was during D2 I really felt that you vs T-Bone was TvS which obviously would imply you're scum. The reason for this is because of the way you two were arguing. You were both constantly trying to discredit each other.

Both of you were being misleading of the other and pushing in a way that felt like you each knew the other's alignment and wanted the other gone

.

Bold can't be true though can it? If we were TvS, 1 of us would know the other's alignment, and the other wouldn't. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely buy the TvS rationale, because I thought the same yesterday. T-Bone didn't show any interest in engaging with me in a broader discussion about things which were AI, and didn't show any interest in really objectively sorting me, or any other players (until the last minute when he pushed a counter-wagon), which I perceived to be scummy. However, my general experience of the interaction you describe - where 2 players push each other very hard and conspicuously - is that they are often TvT. Simply put, where's the benefit to scum-BM of pushing T-Bone as I did? I would more likely have faded into the background, and just NKed him if I really wanted him gone as it's less conspicuous.

(T-Bone convinced you're scum and doing everything to get you eliminated, you seeing T-Bone as a threat and/or T-Bone forcing you into that 1v1.)

This isn't what happened though - I suspected T-Bone and T-Bone OMGUSed me, so he didn't force me into a 1v1. And as above, in general when scum perceive somebody to be a threat, the last thing they do is 1v1 them during the day.

It is possible that you were both tunneled on each other and I'm willing to consider this if someone can convince me why BM is town here.

I don't think I was tunnelled on T-Bone, I think I had good reason for thinking he was scum and I was wrong. I explicitly didn't exclude other possibilities, or claim he was "confscum" or anything like that. Always elim the scummiest player is a manta which minimises regrets. I don't want to dwell too much on T-Bone's play yesterday out of courtesy, but I think if he'd engaged with me as I asked on multiple occasions he could have avoided being mis-elimmed. Instead he resorted to AtE and an inadequately explained OMGUS tunnel on me, which wasn't compelling.

A few examples of you being misleading are below.
586 You introduce T-Bone's plan as guaranteeing no info which is not entirely true and misleading
641 Misleading in that it sounds like you're saying T-Bone didn't want to use the track at all (rather than saying he didn't want to use it in an optimal way)
706 Last point misleading, he did want to use the abilities

These examples all effectively amount to the same thing, so I'll address them with 1 response:

In all cases, although the wording is arguably unclear as I abbreviated, the point was obvious - in posts 706 and 641 my feeling was that T-Bone pushed very hard to get on the council, only to not want to use the abilities

to good effect

(his plan was to not use the protect, and to use the track on somebody within the council, which would preclude us from either blocking a kill or securing a red-check). Moreover, to the extent my wording was sloppy, the substance of the point was in any case correct from my perspective and so I didn't take something not scummy and frame it as scummy - I noted something scummy and didn't choose my words carefully in my haste to explain why it was scummy. I originally responded to this in post 720. On 586, I considered the information gained from T-Bone's plan to be of nil value - as we discussed subsequently, I concede it would have had some value (we could have known whether scum killed or not and we potentially missed out on a green-check by protecting me), although I stand by my broader point that it would have, all else being equal, resulted in lower quality information than tracking someone who could actually have committed the kill. You may argue in retrospect that I was wrong about optimal use of the night actions, but I don't think my view at the time was stupid or completely irrational. And crucially, there isn't a particularly good rationale for scum to mislead about matters of fact - a maximum of 1 of us on the N1 council was scum, and so it would be pointless to lie about what was or wasn't said. And equally as I said in respect of T-Bone, it isn't as simple as assuming scum would deliberately push for sub-optimal nightplay - it depends on the context and what they would achieve from the night actions - hence understanding motive goes a step beyond what someone said, to why they said it.

As for the kill, I do believe there is a higher chance someone on the council would target someone else on the council than someone off council would.

Especially because the kill either failed the first night because of targeting on council (in which case you're town),

or it is at least known that council healed on council the first night and it would be risky to aim there

.

We had a protracted debate yesterday in the thread where it was concluded unanimously that it was optimal to not use the protect - I don't think you really believe the bit in bold is plausible.

On the bit in italics...the only person on-council who could have targetted me N1 is you - presumably you're not claiming that to be the case, so N1 any kill would have been off-council targetting on-council.

That said, it is also important to consider that scum off wagon wouldn't want to narrow their off wagon pool if they thought we'd only be searching off-wagon (I don't believe this is true because in this case BM is town (on council) and has enough suspicion on him that it would be safe to assume town wouldn't just hunt on wagon).

I have mixed feelings about the likely confidence levels of off-wagon scum. Although the stronger evidence for your point is yesterday's wagon on Nono.

Further to the above, we've played together a few times I think? how does my play this game compare to those other games? For my strengths, I'm not a difficult person to meta, so good to get your take on that.

I'm honestly not that great at meta-reading since I pick up more on personality than I do play. But I do read you as a competent player and someone who is good at scum which may be where a lot of my suspicion is coming from.

I think we just finished a game together where I was scum. Admittedly it was a particularly poor game from the scumteam as a whole, but it was a decent illustration of what my scum-meta normally is - lurk and do minimum (with some exceptions). I can be good and active as scum but it's pretty hit and miss. As town in small games I'm fairly consistent in my dogged and zealous approach.

yeah that's the bit which interested me: if you have a pool of 2, and 1 is cleared, doesn't that just make the other one scum? so why would your first thought be to open up the pool to 2 other players (unless you needed multiple elims)?

I'm not really sure what you specifically envisage by someone becoming "interaction cleared" in this context.

It means the other one is probably scum and that's of course who I would be pushing for but I like to rank my townreads as a sort of backup plan if I'm wrong.

Interaction cleared would be for example nono and moz who I've been "interaction clearing" because of A50. In the context of T-Bone maybe there was someone who was really pushing against the T-Bone elimination who I could townread for that to a lesser extent. Idk, I haven't really had a chance to go back and look over everything yet.

Minor point, but in my view it it's pretty hard to interaction-clear someone based on their approach to a town-elim. Interesting you assume, as I did, that those against the T-Bone wagon should get some town-cred. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption, but it is an assumption.

[Battle Mage]

I'll respond to Yessirree later, but I'm saddened that at least 1 town player thinks I tunnelled T-Bone like a moron yesterday.