Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

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Post Post #190 (isolation #0) » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:54 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Man, I wake up, my team tells me things have begun and there's already 8 pages. Pls no.

Anyway, my team does blacklists. So I'll be writing one up sometime.

For now, I'll introduce myself. I don't really play forum mafia. But Flopz, Hectic and Hopkirk roped me into this because something something they needed 4 people to make a team. I'm just here to fill the numbers. But I do like and have a background of playing social deduction games in real life. Although posts are there forever (so no take backsies for scum) and can be analysed in depth, I kind of miss the real life visual/social interaction cues. Also great, I have no meta reads on anyone here. So I will be going in blind. I will try to read posts from past games to figure out whether there's a pattern of behaviour for certain players but I'm not sure I have the willpower to do that for everyone.

I was gonna make a joke about blacklisting all weeb/koreaboos. No matter. I'm pretty into anime. Top 5 anime are - Clannad After Story, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmental Alchemist Brotherhood, Shin Sekai Yori, Eureka Seven. Maybe Attack on Titan Final Season will end up in there. I have high hopes for how that might end. Might be less active in the next week or so of the game - I've got a backlog of stuff to do in real life. However I'll be keeping an eye out on things. Blacklist incoming.
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Post Post #192 (isolation #1) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:14 am

Post by Zaiden »

Someone probably said the best way to know someone is through their enemies. I don't think any of you have played with me before, so I thought sharing my blacklist for this event might provide some insight into what kind of person I am:

Flopz - Killed me about 8-9 times as my Dungeon Master in D&D 5E. Some of those deaths he completely set me up for knowing I would take the bait and had me murdered in cold blood. He's basically a guaranteed serial killer to me. If I ever die, he was involved in some capacity.
Untrod Tripod - As the organiser they're guaranteed to be in the cahoots with mafia.
Kim Jong Un – I don't want to play games with dictators who've deprived fundamental rights and brought great suffering upon their people.
Byron - I'm amazed this guy can shamelessly try to frame me as scum and pretend he's town when he's so clearly scum.
Ganondorf - Kidnaps young girls. FBI need to investigate this guy for child exploitation/trafficking.
Shinji Ikari - He refuses to get in the robot and save humanity. Clearly dumb town who I wouldn't trust to make the correct decisive action in eliminating scum.
Ganyu - She's a demonic, horned cocogoat. It's not that I failed to roll her with 100 summons and don't want to think about her ever again. Let's never bring her up please.
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Post Post #195 (isolation #2) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:18 am

Post by Zaiden »

Also, never trust a simp. They're named Pooky too. Clearly a reference to Poki. AKA Pokimane. You have to all join me in eliminating this simp from the game so we don't have to put up with their simping for the next few weeks. Maybe Spring Breeze has to follow for encouraging these shameless acts of degeneracy.

Vote: PookyTheBear


More serious thoughts/reads to come later.
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Post Post #196 (isolation #3) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:19 am

Post by Zaiden »

Totally not a jealous normie who's feeling lonely.

Cries in Corner
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Post Post #198 (isolation #4) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:34 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 193, Gypyx wrote:
In post 190, Zaiden wrote:Man, I wake up, my team tells me things have begun and there's already 8 pages. Pls no.

Anyway, my team does blacklists. So I'll be writing one up sometime.

For now, I'll introduce myself. I don't really play forum mafia. But Flopz, Hectic and Hopkirk roped me into this because something something they needed 4 people to make a team. I'm just here to fill the numbers. But I do like and have a background of playing social deduction games in real life. Although posts are there forever (so no take backsies for scum) and can be analysed in depth, I kind of miss the real life visual/social interaction cues. Also great, I have no meta reads on anyone here. So I will be going in blind. I will try to read posts from past games to figure out whether there's a pattern of behaviour for certain players but I'm not sure I have the willpower to do that for everyone.

I was gonna make a joke about blacklisting all weeb/koreaboos. No matter. I'm pretty into anime. Top 5 anime are - Clannad After Story, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Fullmental Alchemist Brotherhood, Shin Sekai Yori, Eureka Seven. Maybe Attack on Titan Final Season will end up in there. I have high hopes for how that might end. Might be less active in the next week or so of the game - I've got a backlog of stuff to do in real life. However I'll be keeping an eye out on things. Blacklist incoming.
what kind of social deduction games / how would you qualify your playstyle? i'd guess interaction based given your background but not sure

pedit : what the fuck is that post Sir
I've played real life Mafia, One Night Ultimate Werewolf, Coup, The Resistance/Avalon, Two Rooms One Boom, Among Us, etc etc.

My playstyle? A mix of logic/going with my gut instinct. I'm the sort of player to randomly fire a vig shot at someone I don't trust without any prior indication. After all, my mother told me to never trust strangers. Or cry over spilt milk. In real life, there are things I like to use like visual cues/understanding of a person. Neither which I have at my disposal here. But I can apply a lot of my skills to analysing and deconstructing posts. Generally I like seeking out people who seem town, and try to pressure people I don't get good vibes from. Like Pooky for their simping, Kanna for encouraging said simping and StayPositiveFriend since I don't trust anarchists.

To be honest, my first impression? From skimming over the pages, you guys are very different from the people I play with irl. Though I was expecting you folks to be a lot more hardcore too.

Also give me time. I'm currently DM'ing a session of D&D 5E for some people and will probably be finished in 2-3 hours? You can hold me to those words.

Finally, if you're an anime fan and not watching Wonder Egg Priority this season, what are you doing with life?
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Post Post #219 (isolation #5) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:40 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 218, Pink Ball wrote:Zaiden, you are funny. Very very funny
Reject humanity, return to monke.
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Post Post #225 (isolation #6) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:18 am

Post by Zaiden »

I like doggos. And I like people who say I am funny. Therefore I like PinkBall for now. To PinkBall - would you say that a peach is dare I say, a pink ball?

In retrospect through reading their posts, I'm actually getting decent vibes from SPF despite the fact they're an anarchist. What they said about how they want to approach the game aligns with how I'm seeking to approach the game as town. I like forcing engagement too to gauge people based on their interaction with me. Or at least their interactions with others.

Everyone's piling onto Cheetory and I did think it was kind of suspicious at first. But reading through their posts, Cheetory comes across as scummy for saying that meta is bad if that makes sense. Because I would think the opposite based on playing in real life and what little forum I have played before (like one game but most of the players in that game were people I knew irl). Maybe it's different in a big forum with people you don't actually know on a personal basis. So correct me if I'm wrong. But I have my reservations about that. It could be an attempt to discredit links to scum pattern from previous games. To other players - does meta matter on forum (could be less effective since we don't see each other/can't pick up cues for lies/etc)? And Cheetory normally say that meta doesn't matter? If this is just their usual line on D1 then there's actually nothing much to read into here.

Cheetory, could you elaborate on why meta doesn't matter? If you had to name a player in this game whose meta you are most familiar with, who would it be and what impression do you have of them? If you don't know anyone else here, then I think your proclamation is fair game. Or if you do know people here, is it more like meta doesn't matter for D1 because there's too little of a sample size to go off of?

Finally I like peaches. But I'm more of a melons man if I may say so myself.
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Post Post #226 (isolation #7) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:21 am

Post by Zaiden »

@SPF, how high is your protection factor? If I rub you all over my peaches, would that protect them from sunburn?
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Post Post #227 (isolation #8) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

(Okay my teammates just panicked and told me I'm not allowed to post that but I don't know how to delete it and don't think I can. Sorry.)
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Post Post #228 (isolation #9) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:30 am

Post by Zaiden »

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Post Post #229 (isolation #10) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:30 am

Post by Zaiden »

(Memes provided courtesy of Hectic)
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Post Post #237 (isolation #11) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:04 am

Post by Zaiden »

Let's go lads. I'm down to take out these simpathisers.

VOTE: Spring Breeze


@SpringBreeze, why did you vote me when I didn't have a chance to defend myself and why are you encouraging simping?
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Post Post #242 (isolation #12) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:17 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 232, midwaybear wrote:
In post 225, Zaiden wrote:What they said about how they want to approach the game aligns with how I'm seeking to approach the game as town.
I can see how you would view it as townie, but I also think the general approach is pretty easily fakeable as scum? How do you feel about the spf/Jake interaction then? Do you think it's genuine from her?
In post 225, Zaiden wrote:But I have my reservations about that. It could be an attempt to discredit links to scum pattern from previous games.
Maybe? But I also don't think a lot of scum players would call meta bad for the reason of discrediting meta scumreads. I think the alternate theory that "meta bad" is, well, meta for him is more likely.
[/quote]

From my perspective, that's my approach as town so I can personally buy into that. It is fakeable. But eventually inconsistencies will pile up right? If scum if forced to go back on their claims, die on hills or even backtrack. So it feels like a win-win, since if you force an interaction from mafia early that causes them to make a mistake that can't be retrieved, it's possible to notice these things later on when we figure more stuff out about the game. So I think it would be difficult for SPF to keep up the charade if they are trying to trick me. And it's a good place to start since we can go about operating on our shared modus operandi to get the results we both want. As for my thoughts on SPF/Jake interactions, what does LHF mean? And why are LHF scummy? If you're asking me who I think would be bad between them, Jake kept asking Gamma who should be killed rather than reads/why someone else should be killed. Seems less productive/helpful to me than what SPF is attempting.

As for your second sentence that doesn't even make sense to me. Would you be able to better explain/re-phrase: "I think the alternate theory that "meta bad" is, well, meta for him is more likely." Because I don't know what you were trying to say here.
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Post Post #244 (isolation #13) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 239, SirCakez wrote:??? it's not I think it read genuinely
Why do you assume coaching?
They are coaching me on how to read you guys on forum. But that opening? No way. That's my own magnum opus. Although the idea of a blacklist came from them because we were doing that as a team.

*Chef's Kiss*
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Post Post #261 (isolation #14) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:53 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 247, midwaybear wrote:
In post 242, Zaiden wrote:But eventually inconsistencies will pile up right? If scum if forced to go back on their claims, die on hills or even backtrack. So it feels like a win-win, since if you force an interaction from mafia early that causes them to make a mistake that can't be retrieved
Hmm. I'm not really sure what you mean here. How are you anticipating these inconsistencies to look like? If you mean that their progressions will eventually fall apart, that could happen, but capable players tend to be able to cover their tracks on that front.
In post 242, Zaiden wrote:what does LHF mean? And why are LHF scummy?
LHF stands for Low Hanging Fruit which means that they generally are scumread as either alignment due to playstyle reasons.
In post 242, Zaiden wrote:Jake kept asking Gamma who should be killed rather than reads/why someone else should be killed. Seems less productive/helpful to me than what SPF is attempting.
Perhaps less productive, so I can see that you might think Jake is less townie than spf. Do you scumread him though? I think asking who should be killed generally leads into a conversation about why.
In post 242, Zaiden wrote:Would you be able to better explain/re-phrase: "I think the alternate theory that "meta bad" is, well, meta for him is more likely."
Yeah, I just meant that Cheetory might have past history of being against meta.
1. Now that I think about it, I don't know why I assumed there would be flips. When I played forum before, there were flips so I just kind of assumed flips that would expose inconsistencies are standard on forums. If there are no flips for this session then it makes sense that approach would be less good. But I still think it's a good approach because it produces reactions/reads that others can form opinions around.

2. Makes sense. I just don't think it's wrong to go for LHF because the discussion generated around LHF is clearly useful. As mentioned above I still think it's a good approach because it produces replies/reactions that we can form opinions + reads around.

3. I think we should be looking at Jake as a candidate for our D1 eject because they're saying it's bad to target LHF. At first I thought this meant he was referring to other players, and maybe he was protecting his own scum teammates from scrutiny. But after reading through it more carefully the LHF Jake was talking about was actually himself. I still don't think it's a good defence though or even a legitimate point against SPF. If I was accused of being LHF, my first reaction would be to prove I'm actually a HHF. Not to deflect like that. Also he jumped straight to asking Gamma who should be killed to deflect attention away from himself/them. Imo this early on we should be asking who looks scummy, why are they scummy and observe further comments/replies they make. Then ask whether they should they be killed or if there are other more suspicious people. His line of logic does not follow that natural order I've just given. But Hectic and Hopkirk disagree with me. They think Jake seems pretty good, but I've been right before when they've been wrong so.

4. That's cool. Thanks for clarifying. But I noticed you said 'might' which suggests you don't necessarily know. Does anyone know if Cheetory has a past record of being for or against meta?
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Post Post #265 (isolation #15) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:00 am

Post by Zaiden »

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Post Post #370 (isolation #16) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:11 am

Post by Zaiden »

You will notice in my introduction I talked about my mum. But I never talked about my dad.

That's because my dad never returned from buying peaches and milk. So that's why I'm here today.

Is one of you my dad?
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Post Post #457 (isolation #17) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:14 am

Post by Zaiden »

@MariaR, not sure what exactly I'm doing that is fake? Seems like an arbitrary thing you could say about any energetic player to seem like you're making a contribution.

I want to mention that Midwaybear definitely feels like they are engaging with me in good faith. We had a good chat figuring out stuff about where we come from/how we approach the game. They are trying to create focused discussion and not just with me. They prodded Nora as well. So I don't quite understand why there's a push against them. I've looked through their posts and haven't seen anything off.

One question btw. Is Poki usually like this? Does no one else seriously think this could be scum attempting to buddy all the girls in the lobby through the power of simping? Like no joke. I've seen it happen in real life mafia before.

Finally I can neither confirm nor deny that I am a Hectic alt. But I am indeed good friends with him. He's helping me find my father.
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Post Post #617 (isolation #18) » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:10 pm

Post by Zaiden »

I can understand why Cheetory would think I'm bad based off my opening post. I was taking the mick in some senses. But I didn't mean any harm by it. I came up with it entirely by myself. And the only input my team had was the handmade modkill meme and telling me to include a blacklist. So I don't know if Flopz/Hectic/Hopkirk have done anything weird on this site. But I feel like I'm also being judged by my association with them, and not for who I actually am as a player and person.

Additionally, I honestly don't get why people are voting for Gamma.

What was the issue with their vote on Jake and why is being pedantic an issue? From my perspective, Gamma hasn't done anything wrong. And Jake is probably my heaviest scumlean atm based on what I've said before, about how they aren't really engaging with Gamma or others in good faith. The questions they've asked seem pretty agenda driven to me. I'm really not convinced by this wagon onto Gamma and would like to ask Jake and others if there's some unexplained meta going on here.

Vote: JakeTheWolf


Anyway, I've literally had no response to any question I've asked about Pooky. So I'm just going to assume this is the usual for them? It's actually driving me insane. As for Spring Breeze, I literally don't understand how talking in poems makes people think they're good. How is it they can say 'I think SFP is good because I think SFP is good' and that's somehow not flimsy. And something I actually say with substantiation is therefore flimsy??? @_@.

I seriously feel like I'm visiting a completely different countr/culture that abides by a different set of logical values that has some occasional overlaps with my own, in terms of what's just accepted at face value. But I guess it's a learning curve. The onus is on me to become accustomed to this culture, show I'm working hard to help solve the game and that I can be trusted as a member of town.
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Post Post #635 (isolation #19) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:58 am

Post by Zaiden »

I've played with some strange people. But some of you take the cake for strangest people I've ever played with.

I think Spring Breeze's push onto me is questionable as heck. I apologise if I offended you for calling you a simpathiser. But your reaction to me comes across more like personal dislike/reaction to my previous vote on you, as opposed to coming from a place of good reason and genuine logic. For now I have Spring Breeze/Pooky as nulls. The way they play the game is beyond confusing for me, maybe it didn't help I personally attacked them (for which I'm sorry), but my frustration come from a place of not understanding what both of you post and why you post like that. And it doesn't help that no one's answering my questions. I've asked like every single time and no one is fucking saying anything and I really hate it.

In retrospect, after reading through the thread without being sleep deprived, I think Gamma's unwillingness to talk about reads/thoughts on the game state when pushed for it seems pretty bad. But I think MWB did mention what would scum Gamma have to gain from posting like that? Would jester be bastard or non-bastard in this setup?

@cheetory you won't like it but that's just my playstyle for early. I don't think it's fair to expect someone to be able to write a doctorate thesis on deep reads when I have no history of playing with people here/knowing their habits. You say meta isn't important, but it feels like you expect me to somehow be the same as everyone else going off vibes from prior experience/be able to tell what player based scum slips are, which I would personally classify as meta. Like what even???

I like Gypyx's discussion about the setup here. I don't know how the setups would typically be balanced on this site, so it's useful hearing about the kind of possibilities. I was kind of expecting the usual doctor and cop + mafia roleblocker but didn't consider what roles there could be depending on the flavour behind this setup. I think a fruit stealer would make sense. We need to set up watch in the

I also don't understand this random vote on Pooky from SFP. I've been asking about Pooky all this time and you NEVER tried to follow/engage with me on it. And now that I've decided to move on from it you decide to make your move. WTF? It's shit like this that makes this game so frustrating.

Finally, I don't want to end on a negative note. Is anyone else watching Mushoku Tensei from this season? That show is the grandfather of modern isekai and it's definitely one of the grandest fantasy adventures I've had the pleasure of reading. It's not perfect. But it's my favourite light novel and I really recommend the anime adaptation.
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Post Post #798 (isolation #20) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:27 am

Post by Zaiden »

How the f*ck am I supposed to read people's body language, and suspicious behaviour, across the internet? Guess I'll have to break out some highschool English literature skills to analyse the heck out of people's posts.

I'm pretty sure there are mafia pushing me because I'm the new person. I'm an easy target for these scummy ass lying bitches. My teammates think I'm being trapped, that people accuse me of coaching knowing that I might not understand what it means in a forum mafia context. I didn't realise it had a special connotation. I'm paranoid/scared because to me that's exactly what happened. From my perspective, coaching meant asking about how to format posts and posting etiquette, etc. Or telling me I shouldn't post messages about rubbing Sunscreen Protection Factor (SPF) over my peaches to protect them from sunburn to avoid getting modkilled because it could be interpreted the wrong way. Not that they told me how to write my posts word by word. Because frankly that's just not true. Literally, Hopkirk and Hectic just told me 'Do your regular thing you do in real life and other people should townread you pretty quickly' and vanished to focus on their respective games.

I don't know if they set me up to get screwed over as a joke. Because I went and did that but people seem to think otherwise. Other than some cursory points at the beginning of the game, with Hectic telling me they felt Hopkirk telling me he was getting strong town vibes from SFP and trying to incorporate that into my game, since I strongly agreed with those particular takes from him (in addition to liking Gypx and PinkBall myself), that spectacularly backfired and they're just chortling at my struggles. I'm literally just here to fill the numbers and play my style my way because their first choice player in Elements got banned last year. I know, I'm not a good player like Elements that can help them win. But I wanted to at least try and not let them down. But it's so hard to keep going when people seem to have these bullshit wacky reads that make no fucking sense from my point of view. Worse still, I go off to do real life shit (Grinding ranked in League of Legends after missing Gold IV by 2 LP after finishing my placements, blogging anime, participating in Clash, etc) only come back and there's like 10 extra pages. It's like never-ending homework keeps piling up and I'm being told 'Zaiden you have this deadline, please do it or we'll scumread you/kill you' and I'm just drowning in it. There's just too much to read. This isn't what I signed up for. I thought this would be more like the Mario Maker newbie game which was way less intense.

Supposedly my reasoning is empty, but people choose to focus on a trivial matter, like how my writing seems coached. My way of playing the game is to write out my thoughts in an essay style analytical form. This to me also indicates cheetory is trying to bait a reaction to implicate me, which I don't really appreciate. And even if Cheetory isn't scum, there is guaranteed scum on this wagon and I can see how it's going to go. I give a genuine reaction on my thoughts, but people easily decide 'it's not good enough let's go ahead with killing Zaiden' even when there's clearly no issue with my line of reasoning. This might sound bad, but I just don't have time to separately engage and thoroughly research every single person in this game. At least within the space of 1-2 days. I find myself deeply in a lose lose situation. Respond to Cheetory and whoever else is accusing me, and they will literally pick out everything wrong I do, even if it's a townie error rather than a mafia error. If I choose not to respond, they will continue to say I am mafia precisely because I'm not responding. I'm being told something along the lines of "your logic is weak, your arguments make no sense", instead of having people try to consider things from my perspective. If you are town you should be open-minded to a lot of possibilities. It is not possible to have a rational argument in this game, only educated guesses, unless you're scum who clearly knows what is up. As far as I'm concerned, flirting around drives me nuts but it isn't necessarily alignment indicative and I was seeking to provoke discussion about Pooky who I don't know about and SpringBreeze who I don't know about. But no one tried to engage with me. And no one tried to answer anything I tried asking. What's wrong with that? I don't know if there's an ulterior motive, like if Team Hectic/Flopz/Hopkirk feels threatening to other people so you eject their fourth member to make them lose points. Because that's another possibility I'm considering for why there's traction against me.

From my perspective I think JakeTheWolf might have been faking conflict with Gamma too because they probably know early wagons will fizzle out. I think that's calculated because their reactions are way too opportunistic for me to otherwise explain. Gamma just rehashed Cheetory's general opinion to further lend into this general confirmation bias. The fact Cheetory is subconsciously manipulating Gamma or they're putting on a show to confuse people in absolutely not considering any other possibility screams mafia to me. Also Cheetory was voting Jake then hopped onto Gamma and the explanation they gave felt forced/fake to me. On the other hand SpringBreeze literally just opportunistically hopped onto this counter wagon against me for no real good reason either. Take that as you will. That's just opportunistic as heck. Also, the fact Cheetory is treating what he says himself, and what anti-Zaiden people say, as proof of evidence and fact, is dangerous. Deeper meanings that are non-existent are a massive overanalysis into nothing. Read into actions, rather than the words. However, I'm hardly in any position to provide proof. I can't make others see the bigger picture, because they've already chosen to actively ignore my attempts at advocating logic whilst dismissing anything I do as coached or mafia play. It's really lazy. Everything I do now can only be coached mafia in people's eyes, until further light can be shed on the matter. In short, I'm already trying to show people the bigger picture of how I play as a person, but they're refuse to see it and blame it on my inability to convince, instead choosing to believe the fake picture they have been presented with. Don't listen to what people say about coaching or weak arguments, because I really believe you are all being thoroughly misled by a narrative. The Emperor told his subjects he had new clothes, and even though in actuality he had none, they all pretended he was wearing them anyway because they believed only stupid people couldn't see the clothes. And it feels like that's a lot of players on here right now. I think my arguments are legitimate and I don't understand why they aren't.

Naturally, my arguments cannot have the capacity to be convincing, if peoples' opinion and views are essentially predetermined before they even get along to reading my arguments. As far as I can see, my inability to convince is more or less symptomatic of multiple mafia manipulating the course of this forum discussion that way. Driving a narrative that everyone's subscribed into. From my perspective, what is going on at the moment is complete insanity. Of course, that does not assuage any concerns regarding whether I actually am mafia or not. We should have like 1-2 more weeks to discuss, where I can hopefully convince people that we need to change our current approach to the game to hopefully be more accommodating.

I understand that lazy or noob town might be worth less, but what have I done to indicate that I am more deserving of a lynch, than others who are slinking back or the people who are clearly misdirecting a lynch onto me? Either ways, I am against the idea of voting for ejecting me today because reasons. Also, a townie has no reason to be as callous and denigrating as Cheetory in his interrogation of me - oh Zaiden would be useless anyway as the game goes on so it's a win win. Okay, I might be useless at this forum style. But you didn't have to say it like that. I don't really like you, you're a huge asshole and I'll be glad that I probably don't have to play with someone like you ever again once this game is over and done with. And my language would have been a lot more colourful if I wasn't at risk of getting modkilled for being rude. Don't think you and your scum buddies can get away with being so underhanded.
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Post Post #808 (isolation #21) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:03 pm

Post by Zaiden »

@cheetory7, you can't have it both ways. Being an asshole to others and trying to make them crumble then pretending it's too much to take and pretending to be a victim here. Some people actually fight back when you try to invalidate their efforts and break down their self esteem. Don't think for a second I'm an easy target to pick on.
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Post Post #809 (isolation #22) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:05 pm

Post by Zaiden »

@Gypyx, what are the specific questions you are talking about? I looked through your list of posts and don't see any questions directed at me there. Since you;re not being a dick I'm happy to talk about my thoughts with you and answer them to the best of my abilities.
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Post Post #830 (isolation #23) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:28 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 639, midwaybear wrote:
In post 635, Zaiden wrote:everyone else going off vibes from prior experience/be able to tell what player based scum slips are
Who has been doing this? I might have missed this, but I haven’t really gotten the feeling that most people are using meta to scumread others.
Some reads don't make sense and when people don't bother explaining the only way to rationalise it in my mind is meta. So SFP full townreads SpringBreeze just because they feel like it and that's supposed to make total sense without any sort of justification? Wouldn't the gap in needing to explain anything therefore be meta? As for the lack of response over my queries on Pooky/SpringBreeze. Again, wouldn't the lack of any explaining anything be a gap that's filled in everyone else's mind by meta? Apparently Gamma was scumlean to some people because of being pedantic, which again sounds like a gap that's being filled with meta. Like why must being pedantic be a scum indicative thing? Because if you ask me, none of these responses (or the lack thereof) make any sense without using meta to explain why some players would hold a certain opinion. Because I'm being asked to take things at face value which I personally just can't take at face value in the absence of any actual explanation.
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Post Post #851 (isolation #24) » Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:43 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 641, Cheetory6 wrote:
In post 635, Zaiden wrote:@cheetory you won't like it but that's just my playstyle for early. I don't think it's fair to expect someone to be able to write a doctorate thesis on deep reads when I have no history of playing with people here/knowing their habits. You say meta isn't important, but it feels like you expect me to somehow be the same as everyone else going off vibes from prior experience/be able to tell what player based scum slips are, which I would personally classify as meta. Like what even???
So in my experience there's a spectrum of mafia playstyle between impulse and logic. Players who play off the cuff and use vibes to try to figure things out are generally easier to read off of their tone/activity.
To me you fall on the wayyy other end of the spectrum of calculated and logical, which is fine, if that was unclear. It's just harder for me to get a handle on someone whose content-posting is a lot more curated/prepared.
(especially when I just want to be lazy and respond to everything without having to read back :P)

Digging into your votes so far, we've got:
1. An RVS vote on Pooky.
2. A vote on Spring which is essentially a reactionary vote to Spring voting you in RVS.
3. A vote on Jake for not engaging others in good faith.

The vote on Spring is a little odd because you came into the game with an RVS vote and seem to understand the implication that people in this game vote randomly. So to question Spring about why she voted you seems kind of like busywork? Can you walk me through what your thought process was there?
Zaiden wrote:3. I think we should be looking at Jake as a candidate for our D1 eject because they're saying it's bad to target LHF. At first I thought this meant he was referring to other players, and maybe he was protecting his own scum teammates from scrutiny. But after reading through it more carefully the LHF Jake was talking about was actually himself. I still don't think it's a good defence though or even a legitimate point against SPF. If I was accused of being LHF, my first reaction would be to prove I'm actually a HHF. Not to deflect like that.
If Jake has a track record of being miselimmed regularly in the past, why would it take an approach of trying to pretend it's a LHF if it doesn't believe that's the case? Wouldn't that make it seem more suspicious? I don't really understand how that tracks.
Zaiden wrote:Also he jumped straight to asking Gamma who should be killed to deflect attention away from himself/them. Imo this early on we should be asking who looks scummy, why are they scummy and observe further comments/replies they make. Then ask whether they should they be killed or if there are other more suspicious people. His line of logic does not follow that natural order I've just given. But Hectic and Hopkirk disagree with me. They think Jake seems pretty good, but I've been right before when they've been wrong so.
I'm assuming this is referring to this yeah?:
In post 571, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Gamma! If you had to kill someone right now, who would it be?
Why is it to deflect away from itself rather than to try to parse Gamma's biggest scumread? Gamma's seemed pretty opaque this game, so I'm curious why you felt this couldn't have been an attempt to get him to be more transparent about his thought process.
Zaiden wrote:The questions they've asked seem pretty agenda driven to me.
Which other questions apply for this?
In post 617, Zaiden wrote:I can understand why Cheetory would think I'm bad based off my opening post.
I don't think you're bad at the game, if that was the implication you took from my posts. (though I think the worst thing I said was that your posting felt stilted so I'm not sure where this came from, maybe me being a dufus with the wendy's comment? q_q)

Also, can you drop some reads on other slots in the game/drop any other reads that your teammates have?
I did not vote SpringBreeze as a reaction to being voted by them in RVS. I was annoyed at the public flirting and thought putting some pressure on SpringBreeze could help tone that down, make them play in a way that would make more sense to me and give a reaction that could help me decide whether they were good or bad. Because nobody explained whether SpringBreeze's/Pooky/Nora's strange behaviour is normal. I have SpringBreeze at null because I think their reaction to me could also be annoyance, because I was calling them a simpathiser. But being annoyed is something both scum and town are capable of so I'm withholding my judgement for now. And the fact that no one else is calling them out made me think they're not doing what they're doing in bad faith either like I'd originally speculated.

Next, what's to stop you and Jake from knowing this and coming up with some sort of plan to wagon Jake and point out: 'oh Jake usually gets miselimmed he must therefore be good' as you say. You say you don't buy into meta then proceed to use it too to explain why Jake could be good from your perspective. How convenient.

As for the Gamma comment, you say Gamma is opaque like that's something obvious. You say this clearly knowing I don't know who Gamma is or how they usually play. You surely know that to me Gamma is a mystery I need to solve for the most part, just like anyone else in this game. Again is this not meta? The impression I'm getting here is 'meta bad' unless it's meta you've personally curated as being relevant. Again, awfully convenient and I do not think your previous statements on meta were made in good faith.

For agenda driven questions from Jake, asking 'Gamma! If you had to kill someone right now, who would it be?' was clearly some pretext to criticise Gamma for whatever they said and stick a vote onto them. They ask the same question more than once and 'bait' a response (don't know how much of this is real or just an act) so that they can quickly shift their vote and say 'Gamma bad'. "How does pressuring a LHF help you sort them?" - I think the answer is self-evident to me Jake is trying to cast doubt on SPF's efforts that could help generate more discussion/interactions. Then they draw attention to another LHF - "Where is PrivateI?". Why specifically PrivateI over other players who had been similarly less active at the time that post was made? Also subtly pulls attention onto PrivateI and away from themselves/the wagon they were experiencing at the time. It might seem trivial but I can see it for what it is.

"If you feel this way about Gamma on reread, where does that put your reaction to Jake's questioning/vote on him?" - originally thought it was SvT because it looks like Jake asked the same questions to bait out a reaction from my POV. But now given some more context and further developments I'm wondering how much of that was premeditated and planned out to look convincing.

"Feels more like you're applying a calculation to what your read on Spring should be, rather than a genuine feeling as to whether someone is or isn't mafia." - I'm uncertain because I have varying degress of inklings on who is good, who is bad. And anyone I'm struggling to get alignment indicative inklings from is null. Less active people or people posting in a style which I cannot fathom often end up here. Such as Pooky and SpringBreeze and Nora since I'm struggling to understand their whimsical logic/statements and where they're coming from, even after I've tried to extract reactions from Pooky and SpringBreeze + information about them from others to no avail. From what I can tell it doesn't mean that they are inherently good/bad. Rather I can't understand them. And as I said previously the fact that no one else is calling them out made me think they're not doing what they're doing in bad faith either like I'd originally speculated.

Finally, I will give my teammates' opinions when I can. Hectic hasn't responded. I've asked Hopkirk for reads and he says he'll try to take a look tomorrow, and that he thought I might have been a bit harsh on cheety. Flopz is focused on his own game but told me to give it a break for a night and that I'm not being myself. I will answer more questions tomorrow but I'll need to got to bed for now. Goodnight.
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Post Post #986 (isolation #25) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:46 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 836, midwaybear wrote:
In post 830, Zaiden wrote:So SFP full townreads SpringBreeze just because they feel like it and that's supposed to make total sense without any sort of justification? Wouldn't the gap in needing to explain anything therefore be meta?
I'm going to assume you are talking about MariaR here. I think the way she presented the read leaves room for the method she used. Perhaps it was a meta read, but Maria could also have found some of Spring's posts townie independent of such. It's definitely understandable that Maria hiding the reasoning doesn't sit right.
In post 830, Zaiden wrote:As for the lack of response over my queries on Pooky/SpringBreeze. Again, wouldn't the lack of any explaining anything be a gap that's filled in everyone else's mind by meta?
Yeah, I explained the dynamic between them earlier. Take a look at . This is the one example of meta being used as a read that I will acknowledge.
In post 830, Zaiden wrote:Apparently Gamma was scumlean to some people because of being pedantic, which again sounds like a gap that's being filled with meta. Like why must being pedantic be a scum indicative thing?
Being pedantic isn't scum indicative. Jake's vote was not a good vote for that reason.
In post 830, Zaiden wrote:Because I'm being asked to take things at face value which I personally just can't take at face value in the absence of any actual explanation.
Yeah, so it seems that sometimes you interpret scumreads/townreads on others as meta when it isn't really. Earlier in this game, you talked about catching scum based on inconsistencies. Can you talk more on that?
Yeah I had a look back and realised I was talking about MariaR. Apologies about that, I got it mixed up.

Because I don't see pedantic as being alignment indicative without additional context of past behaviour. I think it's a very difficult question to answer myself on who I would outright kill so if I was asked I would hesitate too (and maybe get called pedantic for it) because the intentions behind Jake's question - three times too - seem loaded as heck. Especially since it's so early on and we have very little to go off. You can easily pin an ulterior motive on anyone. Compared to structuring it like 'You getting bad vibes from anyone? If so, why? What are your underlying reasons to think along those lines and do any particular interactions stand out to you?'. Now the way Gamma chose to answer wasn't ideal but I didn't think that pedantic reaction was unwarranted from my POV.

"you interpret scumreads/townreads on others as meta" - not really. Just townreads/scumreads that seem to have no underlying basis to them. And there's a whole lot of those in this game. So to me the gap/lack of logic in some reads can only be bridged by meta I don't know that you all take as a given.

When I say inconsistencies obviously scum aren't going to make this mistake every time but I've played in a few open setups where someone was pressured and they oddly assumed an exact number of scum even though it wasn't specified by the mods anywhere. And that led to them being ejected then flipping scum. Other than that there's also really odd backtracks, night actions being incronguous with another claim and questionably suboptimal usage of some power roles. Like I get people are going to sometimes make random choices because we don't know what the mafia are going to do but then there comes a point in statistics where it just doesn't add up. To give an analogy like that Minecraft's person's statistically improbable speedrun I keep seeing talked about in YouTube videos. I'm not sure if people who play mafia an absolute ton like many of you guys here would make that kind of mistake but it surely must happen once every blue moon.
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Post Post #987 (isolation #26) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:47 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 940, staypositivefriend wrote:@zaiden -

one of my partners (super) says that you are hard town and that she feels bad for the pressure you're under. she wants to be in the same game as you because she's a big fan of clannad too :P
Your friend has amazing taste. After Story is my top No.1 undisputed favourite anime. Literally changed my life and no other anime comes close.
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Post Post #989 (isolation #27) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:43 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 988, midwaybear wrote:
In post 986, Zaiden wrote:but it surely must happen once every blue moon.
People are sometimes inconsistent, and it isn’t always clear which alignment the inconsistencies come from. Real slips are pretty rare yeah.

Do you have any thoughts based off of the past few pages. Did your teammates get back anything to you?
Not yet. They said they'll have a look and provide some reads after they're done with stuff they need to do during the day. Same with me tbh. I will take a clearer look over the new pages/old pages once I'm done with other obligations post-work. I also need to watch the latest Attack on Titan episode with some real life people over Discord. At a cursory glance I suspect there's backtracking going on since people realised I wasn't an easy target anymore and went for Nora instead because maybe they're perceived as another easy target to attack. But I would need to extensively read into these responses/Nora's activities to have more concrete thoughts/analysis.

I'm not convinced by Jake's response in 948 I think instantly slamming a vote for lack of content could be seen as more questionable while baiting a response then slamming a vote makes it seem more justified. It seems a bit calculated to me. I'm also saying calling another player to come and play seems scummy because you're drawing attention away from yourself to potentially their lack of activity. A bit like 'Oh look this person's kind of flying under the radar don't people think?' as a way of subtly deflecting from yourself. Or calling them to your side because you think you can rely on them to back you up/help you out. Like Jake didn't answer why this player in particular over other less active players? Is it because you specifically wanted to generate an interaction and make both of you come across a certain to the rest of the lobby?

To address the final point I suppose it's easier to force inconsistencies in real life I guess because you pressure a person on the spot to give an answer and they have less time to improvise townie thoughts or reactions. It's a shame that's less possible online but I guess that's just how it is.
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Post Post #1195 (isolation #28) » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:46 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Hello. I've come back from watching Attack on Titan's latest episode. It was fucking amazing. It feels like I'm watching history in the making (just don't let me down like GoT did). And I've cooled off since yesterday. I would like to apologise to Cheetory. I've been dealing with personal issues feeling like I'm only a second choice for Flopz, Hectic and Hopkirk because they never invited me last year. Then being told I was useless and would probably be eliminated for being useless even if I was town by Cheetory didn't help. My team didn't realise this was my thought process and have since clarified with me they picked me only because I'm truly their really good friend and that they still chose me over other mafiascum players who might be technically better at this game but they still chose me because of how long our friendships go back. So I'm grateful to them and apologise for doubting my friends and lashing out at Cheetory because it was really just an issue of me being really overwhelmed in a bad mental state and struggling to internalise stuff. Cheetory if you are not scum putting on a show and are fellow town I hope I can make it up to you sometime. If you are scum who are putting on a show, I'll be pissed off but fair play and I still hope to make it up to you if I did hurt your scum feelings.

Anything I've referenced from Hectic/Hopkirk came in at about 8pm GMT. I started writing this at 10pm GMT but got distracted and played 2 ARAM games on League of Legends (because end on a win). So the final ARAM roughly finished at 0:30am? At the time I finished writing this up it was 1:45am my time and I need to get up early so rip me but I made a promise to make a post so whatever.

First off, I will focus on recent developments following my last post yesterday then reach far back to the early stages of the game after that. I like Morning Tweet's entrance so far they're a lot more active than Clidd but I'm not convinced about this push onto Nora being scum because I could believe the idea she's being pushed onto as an easy target the way I was made out as an easy target. However Morning Tweet lays out and explain the meta reason (please do this if you're using meta because if you don't say it I can't know) that apparently Nora is sitting back and spectating which is atypical for them? And then Nora kind of reacted by getting engaged into the game, which tells me this meta read must be true because otherwise Nora would have presumably said 'Bullshit. Your accusations are wrong scum!'. Also Murdersunny corroborates on this by saying Nora could very well be changing their meta but that they think it's NAI. Both Hectic and Hopkirk were confused why Nora (and anyone else) thought I was Hectic because he was clearly in another game. But her asking me twice about Hectic's read in what came across as good faith felt townie to them. They're flipping on a lot of their reads and it seems like paranoia to me. I don't think I've seen scum flip flop between reads that hard and that fast so based on my real life experience I feel inclined to believe this is town behaviour. Though I have no prior experience with them and if they've had a record of doing this as scum then I will have to reconsider that point.

For Pooky I've been told relaying Koba's real times thoughts then 180'ing on SPF seemed authentic because SPF has good reads as town. I haven't received any suggestion this is alignment indicative or anything but I thought the Pooky/SPF interaction segment was a genuine conversation where they got to a mutual understanding and agreed to hunt scum together. I've also been told to let Pooky solve Kanna. Though they were disgruntled over a technicality about a recent game where they reckon Pooky cheated because they were actually masons with Kanna. I've been told to townlock Kanna for now because Pooky has townlocked them (unless it's a joke which they do not believe it is). Hopkirk reckons Kanna probably doesn’t make 538 as scum? Though they didn't really explain much and I'm not seeing how this Pooky reads Kanna thing is supposed to work. So I won't townlock SpringBreeze like they recommended because what my team told me here about 'soul masons' was a load of gibberish that made no fucking sense to me.

For the Cakez discussion, I felt it was odd that Cakes held onto this stance they supposedly always had in 848 and only came out with it when it was convenient. So I want to ask Cakez, why did you decide to sit on those thoughts? Also Hectic says what Cakez has done so far seems pretty fakeable because they lack explanations or underlying reasonings. Hopkirk said they got off 'swagger' vibes from Cakez's early posts. As if their main concern was looking confident more than anything else. According to Hopkirk there's a chance Cakez was trying to pocket me because they keep asserting I'm genuine but they could also flip that at a moment's notice whenever they feel like if I say they don’t like. I could totally see that being a possibility. One of the scums on my wagon playing bad cop while Cakez is playing good cop.

Also with reference to Clidd both Hopkirk and Hectic told me that scum are more likely to sub out - which also makes wary of Morning Tweet. And given the game state it seemed convenient they would immediately attack on Nora seemed quite opportunistic to me. And also it adds to my scumlean on Cheetory who said they were considering subbing out. Although Hectic and Hopkirk are divided on Cheetory. Hectic thinks Cheetory's anger comes from a genuine place where it seems like he doesn't know my alignment hence I've been attacked over the possibility of 'theatreeing' as scum. Hopkirk thinks that Cheetory's early vote on Gamma doesn't strike him as genuine town trying to form a read + his subsequent progression in logic for reads and votes doesn't across as natural. I feel like taking Hopkirk's side on this one. Even if we set aside anything personal from yesterday I don't trust Cheetory or believe they are acting in good faith. If I didn't respond to their questions immediately to me it was one post among many and I was feeling very overwhelmed by dozens of posts at the time.

Hopkirk told me he's less confident about his reads on Morning Tweet and Jake and to defer to Hectic. Hectic liked what Morning's doing in 873 and 904. She knows Murder is good at reading Noraa, and knows Pooky is good at reading Kanna, so the questions are meaningful to him. Hectic reckons based on 656 if Nora is scum, one of the scum would be one of Jake or Jingle because scum tend to be hyper aware of their partner, so she could mistake people commenting on Jake as commenting on Jingle, but it's unlikely she would make the same mistake if Jake is scum and Jingle is town. I understood what he meant about being hyper aware but I didn't get how that affects the likelihood of making mistakes. In this scenario Hectic showed a preference to Jingle being town because 865 and 877 showed he didn't care about rubbing people the wrong way and openly admitted to that, which scum would be more interested in avoiding. I didn't like Jingle's interaction with MWB comparing my wagon with Nora's in 883 and whether that was framed a dichotomy of two choices when I think there should be more options for wagons on the table. Also I'm confused how Jingle came around to a PB townread. They don't explain much here but I assume it's because of PB's support on Nora's wagon? I don't follow the logic of how that led to that particular townread. For Nora's vote on Jingle, I have no idea whether Jingle is a good player and whether they are playing below their standards? Didn't see this was an OMGUS until Cakez pointed that out - but is the OMGUS here alignment indicative for Nora? I wouldn't know but don't get the impression OMGUS would be AI is based on how hard Nora flip flop between their town/scum reads?

Finally I do agree with Hopkirk and Hectic that Gypx was shading me really hard. I didn't even realise Gypyx was throwing shade at me until they pointed it out. I want to take this moment to clearly state I wasn't and am not being coached in the forum mafia definition sense. And even if I was, from Hopkirk/Hectic POV it's completely normal for new/less experienced players to be guided by their veteran seniors and it doesn't necessarily indicate alignment. Trying to frame it as a scum thing and justifying it in 238 and 241 is extremely scummy and uncharacteristically lazy of Gypyx from their POV. Honestly, I agree. I didn't see it before but they was really trying to take advantage of me in a really underhanded and slimy way. So I'll be moving my vote onto that scumbag since this is the one of the scumreads my team has come to agree upon.

Vote: Gypyx
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Post Post #1373 (isolation #29) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:33 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1223, Noraa wrote:
In post 1195, Zaiden wrote:Hopkirk told me he's less confident about his reads on Morning Tweet and Jake and to defer to Hectic. Hectic liked what Morning's doing in 873 and 904. She knows Murder is good at reading Noraa, and knows Pooky is good at reading Kanna, so the questions are meaningful to him. Hectic reckons based on 656 if Nora is scum, one of the scum would be one of Jake or Jingle because scum tend to be hyper aware of their partner, so she could mistake people commenting on Jake as commenting on Jingle, but it's unlikely she would make the same mistake if Jake is scum and Jingle is town. I understood what he meant about being hyper aware but I didn't get how that affects the likelihood of making mistakes. In this scenario Hectic showed a preference to Jingle being town because 865 and 877 showed he didn't care about rubbing people the wrong way and openly admitted to that, which scum would be more interested in avoiding. I didn't like Jingle's interaction with MWB comparing my wagon with Nora's in 883 and whether that was framed a dichotomy of two choices when I think there should be more options for wagons on the table. Also I'm confused how Jingle came around to a PB townread. They don't explain much here but I assume it's because of PB's support on Nora's wagon? I don't follow the logic of how that led to that particular townread. For Nora's vote on Jingle, I have no idea whether Jingle is a good player and whether they are playing below their standards? Didn't see this was an OMGUS until Cakez pointed that out - but is the OMGUS here alignment indicative for Nora? I wouldn't know but don't get the impression OMGUS would be AI is based on how hard Nora flip flop between their town/scum reads?
OH god wtf is this. Hectic please send help asap if ur buddy Zaidan here is actually town. this paragraph be dumpster fire :/
Hey Nora, Hectic heard your pleas. He has told me something along the line that you're not trying to be too fluffy, sunshine and rainbows early on and its town indicative. He's reluctant to push the idea angry = town for you because he reckon you know that and could fake it although he doesn't really think you're faking it so far in this game. Make of that what you will. But I don't think Hectic's read is really important here because it doesn't sound very logical (because I personally think you have been quite fluffy/sunshine/rainbow in your approach) not to mention what he said hasn't really influenced my thought process. My personal read on you is townie for different reasons which I've given, though you may not be convinced by it becayse I'm trying to work with what I have having played a bunch of social deduction games in real life compared to forum.

For what MWB said about these arguments being weak for Hectic/Hopkirk being my teammates, I did leave out their reads that weren't contextual to the recent convo/developments at the time because my post was already getting bloated. I will look to talk about them over the rest of today. If MWB meant the points I took from them that I raised on an individual by individual basis, that was literally all I have to work with. If this is 'weak' or if people expected more I'm sorry. I'm trying but this is literally what my team has given me, and I've tweaked everything a bit because apparently we're not allowed to directly quote, but I think I've done alright in getting across the original spirit of what Hectic/Hopkirk were intending so that shouldn't be the issue.
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Post Post #1375 (isolation #30) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:37 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1358, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 1195, Zaiden wrote:what my team told me here about 'soul masons' was a load of gibberish that made no fucking sense to me.
i cant believe hectic recruited you for his team im going to murder him the next time i see him
I have no idea why my team put me in this specific game then. Though I've never met players like you guys in real life so there's no way for me/Hectic/Hopkirk/Flopz to know how much I was going to struggle.
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Post Post #1393 (isolation #31) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:20 am

Post by Zaiden »

I've gone over some of the earlier pages to read over stuff because I never properly read through the earlier portions of the game. Here are some of Pages 1-5 thoughts from my perspective:
In post 24, staypositivefriend wrote:
In post 23, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:VOTE: SPF

welcome to Mafiascum ٩(◕‿◕)۶
thanks! i think i played half a game w/you on epicmafia that i ended up replacing out of

i'm excited to be here but i also tend to flood the thread a
lot
on my homesite, so i'm taking a more restrained approach and going w/the flow
SPF could have easily chosen to have flooded the discussion and completely dominated discourse because people would have chalked it down to their usual? They remained actively involved but not at the expense of preventing others from speaking up and in retrospect I think that's been good. +townpoints
In post 17, Jake The Wolfie wrote:VOTE: Noraa

Gamma let's form a masonry
If this is some meme, that explains why Hopkirk would always say this in real life mafia.
In post 34, staypositivefriend wrote:
In post 31, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
In post 28, staypositivefriend wrote:
In post 25, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:were you the one I was going to dayvig until koba talked me out of it :3
yeah prolly, i remember you hardtunneling me early on :dead:
I do that a lot

should I do that here?

are you a baddie?

you don't have to lie to me we r all friends here.
i
am
a baddie, and nobody is ever going to believe u
Brazen thing to say so early on. It makes me feel uneasy and I would feel pretty stupid if SPF actually was. But would scum be that... brave? I'm the kind of player in Avalon/Resistance who would publicly declare I'm Merlin from the get go even as Merlin. But I don't know if I'd have the balls to say that as scum. +townpoints
In post 35, midwaybear wrote:
In post 32, Noraa wrote:also is this shade that I see?
A little. I heard that you dislike rolling scum, so wanted to make a post in that direction.
I think MWB could have been more subtle about it? If you tell someone you plan to make them slip up on something, why wouldn't they just take that into account and do the opposite? I think it would be more in scum's interest to virtue signal 'Oh look, I'm doing scum hunting here how about that' instead of quietly scum hunting and letting scum demonstrate behaviour which would verify these inklings. And like why not actually pressure Nora with a vote here if there was any intention of doing what was said? +scumpoints
In post 46, Something_Smart wrote:Sources say that midway is very scummy.

I haven't read anything yet.
I don't know if that was the line of thought S_S had but if what I mentioned before was their reasoning behind saying this, I agree with this line of logic +townpoints
In post 64, MariaR wrote:The fact this game is a pun about peaches is awful and anyone who laughed I'm going to vote. Step right up handing em out
I like puns. But I agree that these puns about peaches are awful. I admit I was personally offended when you said I wasn't funny, but I personally find your deadpan snarkiness quite funny. For some reason I also get some cognitive dissonance from your KPop profile pic. Because I always had this image that KPop fans are bubbly - kind of like Nora and their peach nomming and trying to soothe me down. Whereas you're quite blunt and sarcastic.
In post 74, SirCakez wrote:VOTE: cheet
I can't forgive you for what you did to me in the fifth fortnight
Would scum stack a wagon so quickly and so obviously? From my experience in real life they tend to be a lot more lowkey about it. I agree with MWB's follow up that the votes on Cheetory feel forced. But I don't think it's alignment indicative. At some point, we're eventually going to want to stack votes to pressure responses out of people and it was always going to happen eventually.
In post 92, midwaybear wrote:
In post 89, Cheetory6 wrote:midway and s_s are both in my pile of townleans that will be completely useless by page 7.
Can you explain your progression on me?
I think the scrutiny seems over the top for what I thought was an innocuous third vote/generate the first wagon and further discussion. I want to ask, is it a bad thing to force that stage of the game? I'm not very keyed in on why random voting stage is important and why it's such an issue to create a wagon (since isn't a wagon just eventually happen inevitably, inexorably anyway?). But I think there's some real intent to investigate underlying motives and get some thoughts out of people. +townpoints
In post 93, Cheetory6 wrote:i looked at your first few posts and thought "i want to vote for this guy"
and then i looked at your first few posts again and thought "i do not want to vote for this guy".
In that respect I can actually see the progression in Cheetory's logic here. Where the first few things MWB said seemed off but their follow up was good. +townpoints.
In post 100, Jake The Wolfie wrote:
In post 99, Noraa wrote:
In post 81, SirCakez wrote:Noraa you're scum aren't you?
Nope.
Image
According to Hectic apparently Jake and Nora don't really like each other much so he reckons scum Jake is less likely to beef her out of nowhere like he did here. +townpoints.
In post 119, staypositivefriend wrote:
In post 116, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Anyway Louise, what are your thoughts about the wagon of 3 on me?
what are
your
thoughts? do you think anyone is pushing on you opportunistically?
I read this as SPF interacting with Jake in very good faith. +townpoints.
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Post Post #1394 (isolation #32) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

^If this style of post is better let me know if I'm doing it right. Some days I feel like I have to mega post and I can't make time for forum throughout the day until the evenings and there's too much content to catch up on, but I will do these sorts of focused quotation posts when I can.
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Post Post #1396 (isolation #33) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:24 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1395, Noraa wrote:
In post 1393, Zaiden wrote:According to Hectic apparently Jake and Nora don't really like each other much so he reckons scum Jake is less likely to beef her out of nowhere like he did here. +townpoints.
uh...............?
Don't ask me. I'm literally repeating what Hectic said because people asked for their opinions.
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Post Post #1397 (isolation #34) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:26 am

Post by Zaiden »

Also people I know this might seem like an obvious question and I've sent it to my team too. But how the heck do I set my profile picture?
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Post Post #1401 (isolation #35) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:41 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1399, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 1393, Zaiden wrote:I don't know if that was the line of thought S_S had
That was a teammate read. I can ask said teammate which post gave that impression, if you want.
Yes please.
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Post Post #1402 (isolation #36) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:42 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1398, Noraa wrote:user control panel -> Profile -> edit avatar
Thanks! Issue is it wants a specific pixel dimension. asdiufhqweiurhqwelrujbasdf. Not sure I can be bothered to resize an image through Photoshop rn.
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Post Post #1403 (isolation #37) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:44 am

Post by Zaiden »

@staypositivefriend, latest episode of Wonder Egg Priority just came out! Let me know what you think about this show. I think the second episode wasn't as good as the first episode because it doesn't have as much of the novelty factor anymore. But overall I'm really digging it so far.
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Post Post #1438 (isolation #38) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:01 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1431, MariaR wrote:I was reviewing some peoples pages on my google doc and I was laughing at how I had one person just labeled as 'Will never be helpful just Elim or clear down the line' I think I wrote that at 1 in the morning or something.
Ms MariaR, I don't feel so good. 0_0

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Post Post #1560 (isolation #39) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:36 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1456, MariaR wrote:As the queen of ate I can help point pure ate from legit but do I want to get into a wall war with Zaiden? It sounds kinda fun given how bland this game has been. But then people will start asking me to read my notes and that's a Y A W N.
VOTE: Zaiden
La la la
pedit: Preach
Woah, slow down there. Think about the potential collateral damage here. You are very scary indeed. But honestly, I welcome this. Come at me with the Wall War! I'll get back to you tomorrow. Live Colourised Footage of MariaR destroying Wall Maria:

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In post 1451, Cheetory6 wrote:2. I mean there's the possibility that you're just mafia not wanting to rock the boat until end of cycle with this Spring Breeze case while getting to coast through on eventually presenting it, is my big concern.
I feel like the cat was out of the bag the moment you voted Spring and said you had a big case, but like if you want to hold it and face 10x scrutiny from me later in the cycle then that's fine.

3. Do you think Dann is better at reading you than Jingle?

p-edit: I don't particularly want to case Zaiden again tbh.
I will say that there is a certain dodginess in terms of his interaction that feels really off and I'm honestly like.. really surprised nobody else has pointed out just how much Zaiden is selectively choosing what he does and does not respond to.
You can say I'm being selective. From my perspective, I'm being overwhelmed by homework and am prioritising the most pressing assignments with the closest deadlines. Only more homework keeps piling on as I'm working on the due ones. Through the advice my team have given me plus what Nora said about coming back more calm I'm trying to address this by working through pages in chunks. I'm setting a goal for myself to go through 10 pages a day. I will get to addressing everything directed at me.
In post 1459, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 1457, Spring Breeze wrote:i feel like you’re treating me very unfairly pink ball and it’s a little unpleasant
Is scumreading you being unfair with you? Don't play the victim, I have stated a scumread on you, that I'm very confident on it and nothing else. My job will be to convince everyone that you're scum, and your job will be to convince everyone that you're not, and that's about it. That's not unfair, I'm not being an asshole to you or treating you poorly or nothing. If you want to focus on one player who is scumreading you that's on you, I have my rights to keep my reasoning to myself until I think it's more convenient to share it.
Wonder what specifically in Spring Breeze's interactions with SPF would tip off Pink Ball here. It's true I'm not convinced by my team's talk with me about town locks or soul masons. But I wanted to ask. I have SPF as townlean. If SPF wasn't scum, would your read on Spring Breeze being scum still be logically consistent? If that holds true then I want to hear how or why.
In post 1464, Cheetory6 wrote:Also just like a thing I've been keeping close to chest because it's kind of eh but
I just don't really believe the whole big curated anger post thing when he's shown he's comfortable posting small too.

Like, if I'm angry and I'm getting into it with someone, I'm not going to wait a day and a half to respond to someone when they respond to something I've said.
This post indicates that he's willing to get into it:
In post 808, Zaiden wrote:@cheetory7, you can't have it both ways. Being an asshole to others and trying to make them crumble then pretending it's too much to take and pretending to be a victim here. Some people actually fight back when you try to invalidate their efforts and break down their self esteem. Don't think for a second I'm an easy target to pick on.
Which makes me think that him subsequently disengaging and not addressing anything I've posted since just feels... very off to me and I don't really believe any of his posts calling me mafia.

I really think that someone in that position should instead still be very mad at me and responding.
It just does not feel like a real timeline of someone who is seethingly mad at someone for something.

Hectic is literally obligated to townread me here and I'm still waiting for the Hopkirk stuff to pick apart so that's where I'm at.

I could case this like 100x harder but I frankly don't really want to deal with whatever he's going to spew back at me by potentially misinterpreting me again (whether intentionally or not?) and I'd rather read and recenter at this point than just spend the entire game getting into it with someone who people aren't really choosing to engage me on.

p-edit:
Pink Ball wrote:2. Do you think I've been coasting through? I stated who's my biggest scumread and I've focused on the rest of the game 'cause I already caught one scum.
I think scumhunting is the hardest thing for mafia to fake, so, it's very difficult for me to get a gauge of your play when you're unwilling to actively push a scumread.
I disengaged because my team begged me to. I was extremely tempted to ignore them because I was livid but they mean a lot to me so I acquiesced and cooled off. You can choose not to believe me but obviously don't know me personally. Yes, I have massive self-esteem issues I'm trying to work on. But I can recognise when I've done wrong and apologise for it. And it's also easier to do that when I've had a night to sleep it off.

Anyway, I understand why elitists would be vexated or frustrated when a noob comes to play. And there's fear of an unknown quantity. But come at it from the perspective of a totally inexperienced player. Unlike the Newbie games it's just really damn hostile around here. No one wants you and everyone thinks you're useless/shit/don't give you any time to try and learn. Also I'm certain I did not misinterpret you. Just like how MariaR and S_S have said nasty things about my posting, let's not stoop low and pretend these nasty comments didn't happen. You guys did. If you continue to refuse owning up to it that says more about all of you and your lack of accountability than it does me. I've also tried to extend an olive branch. You don't have to accept it, but not my problem if you choose to shoot it down. Which I'm taking you are. If you are mafia, this course of action makes a lot of sense. Continue letting the drama unfold to clog the game and to have a good reason for avoiding interactions with me further down the line. This also suits scum!Cheetory because I'm coming off looking worse off between the two of us.

I was told to post small by other people in this thread/my team. As for posting big, I posted smaller before that. Again an attempt to vilify and misrepresent me. The mega post was literally my breaking point of fuck everyone in this game from getting constantly ignored, unpleasantly hard shaded by others and scrutinised for reasons I perceived to be unfair. And getting overwhelmed by page after pages of posts. I was also hugely tilted from missing out on Gold IV by 2 LP despite starting off my placement games winning 4/4 then losing the rest - meaning I will have to play through a coin flip sequence of promotion games to reach Gold. I also had been told during dinner that my laugh was embarrassing by my father. So I was feeling like utter shit at the time. But being able to call friends and watching Yuru Camp cleanses the soul.

I can't speak for Hectic/Hopkirk and why they would read you that way. Only they would know. But I should mention Hopkirk's busy because he has a job/social commitments with uni societies/a life outside mafiascum through the week. I've already said my piece on why I have reservations about you. Expect a follow up from him this weekend.
In post 1486, Cheetory6 wrote:
In post 1485, SirCakez wrote:if Zaiden is indeed scum it is definitely with Jingle I think
hell yeah
I can agree that Jingle is definitely off. But I want to iterate I'm not involved with any of this shady shizz. I feel like Cheetory is trying to frame it as Jingle = scum, Zaiden = scum and then I will be unfairly offed by association if Jingle flips scum. I think this could help prove I've got nothing to do with Jingle. Or people will come up with their take on why not. Want to iterate if I had the power to raise two fresh wagons assuming there were none on the table it'd be Gypyx/Cheetory. Cakez as a third choice because they might have been trying to good cop me earlier in the game to Cheetory's bad cop routine. These are my top 3 scumreads at present though I can accept there's a good chance not all of them are scum. But I think one or more of them definitely had to be acting in bad faith when engaging with me. And to me if Cakez flips scum then Cheetory is likely to be scum.

Vote: Jingle
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Post Post #1563 (isolation #40) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:46 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1561, SirCakez wrote:Zaiden if you can't read everything it's ok
Don't kill urself
Thanks man. Tbh I was seriously contemplating throwing myself out of the window at when I was playing horribly 1 kill/9 deaths on Viktor in my ranked placement and my top lane Chogath told me to kill myself. The curse of ending on a win can sometimes be too much. Again, thanks. I can appreciate it when people are kind enough to go beyond the game and say these kinds of nice things, regardless of whatever alignment they end up being.

Also have some mofu mofu Cakez.

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Post Post #1565 (isolation #41) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:50 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1562, Cheetory6 wrote:
In post 1560, Zaiden wrote:If you continue to refuse owning up to it that says more about all of you and your lack of accountability than it does me.
So your teammates have looked at the post that you're saying I was a dickhead in and have agreed with you.
They pointed out you called me useless first, yes. And I was down to patch things over because they told me there was no use beefing too hard or getting stressed over forum mafia and to try and have fun. But way you remain in denial and haven't apologised whatsoever is extremely dishonest to me that it actually goes beyond beggar's belief that I'm seriously struggling to respect their request here.
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Post Post #1573 (isolation #42) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:12 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 589, Cheetory6 wrote: pp-edit: the guy is literally a walking miselim waiting to happen when people run out of slots to push.
I'm a walking miselim waiting to happen? What else can that imply other than I'm useless fucking baggage that will hurt town's chances of winning. It's so bad that I'm just a detriment to town no matter what I try to do. Maybe I really am better off dead so people can see the game state for what it is.
In post 591, Cheetory6 wrote:zaiden yes.
his engagement is surface level.
it could just be a personality thing, but there's literally no way you can get to endgame playing like that.
And you literally said my attempts at engaging were shit (I guess true in retrospect) or that it was an issue with my personality (low blow) but that there was no way I could make it to endgame because of how shit I am as a player. Yay, I love being told I'm shit at this game as if I don't know it already. Couldn't you just have been nice, given me some space/time to reply when I was clearly getting overwhelmed and told me what I could improve at instead of just writing me off like that?
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Post Post #1588 (isolation #43) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:36 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1570, Pink Ball wrote:Love the meme, but now I see why you could be scum based on that answer to Maria, but meh you're fun you can stay.

I don't see you as a noob by the way. My only piece of advice, and this is only for you:

Spoiler: Zaiden only
Stop playing League dude
It's a curse. Many of my friends play it so it's hard to get out. Because the highs are really high even when the lows are catastrophic. And those high highs do feel pretty good. And once I hit Gold IV I will probably leave it at that. To be fair, I am a noob at forum. My point of contention is that I'm not useless. I'm trying my best to contribute and maybe my best isn't enough but it's frustrating because I feel like I've been readily dismissed and made an easy target out of. I'm trying really hard but it feels like no one's acknowledging my efforts not to mention I'm somehow looking bad after everything I'm trying to do so I'm clearly doing something wrong. It was silly and conceited of me to think this would be similar to the Newbie Game when everyone's on a whole different level from that so I just have to try and up my efforts because I owe it to my friends for believing in me and the town.

Also I made that meme knowing that some people could try 'readin' deeply into the meaning behind my response/meme and try to pin down something on me. To be honest, I'd also been told by my team that MariaR’s push felt like it made sense from her perspective even if they don't get it (this was about 2 days ago) so +townpoints. And to be honest, I'm not sure if they are right because I certainly don't understand it and feel deeply suspicious about the push/their agenda. Clearly part of it is motivated by a dislike for the way I post - or is that just a convenient pretext to excuse having me eliminated when I eventually flip town? So engaging with Maria will help me figure that out - whether she's coming from a genuinely town angle or whether she sees me as this easy newbie to throw under the bus.
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Post Post #1598 (isolation #44) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:09 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1578, Cheetory6 wrote:I don't really think I would infuse anyway near as much negative connotation with the phrase walking miselim but I can get disliking me having said that.
Referring back to another one of my posts, I said that people on this site generally have a harder time reading logical players (or at least I felt like it was part of what was making you harder to read for me), and that was a part of where I was coming from in saying that, on top of you being a new player that nobody here knows. When people can't understand someone, that makes them a lot easier to eliminate. That's a large basis of where I was coming from in that post.

I also think that surface level engagement is pretty commonplace for someone who's inexperienced with site culture and getting to know a playerbase, (and also mafia, which was part of the point of me saying that) it doesn't really have anything to do with someone being shit at the game.

There aren't many players that I would actively call shit at the game.
If you're unsure of what I mean from a post just like poke me about it in the future. If I'm actively trying to be an asshole to you, it'll probably be a lot more obvious, I promise.
I guess it can be really hard to convey tone online because the way you post is generally snarky so I played that back in my head with a snarky tone. I can also understand where you come from about an unknown person being a sensible choice to eliminate because you don't know them/don't know their meta because this happens in real life social deduction too. However, I've come at it twice from the other perspective. Being the new and unknown person who's scared of better players taking advantage of them and throwing them under the bus. It's hard to trust others. Though when I was an exec at my uni's Mafia Soc (those were the days with Hectic) I was scum and brutally betrayed the new freshers who placed their complete trust in me. That was quite funny.

But from those types of experiences I know all too well how easy it is to frame the new person, have them suspected then killed off - in which case where would that take people's reads if that new player flipped town? They will accept there were many legitimate reasons for removing that person and it would be difficult to sift the ulterior motives from the genuine believers. And also differentiating people who clearly know I'm good because they're scum aligning themselves away from the miselim from people who genuinely thought I was good because they read me as town. Although I've got a good sense for who's tried to approach me from an angle of bad faith, I think my demise would still be a pretty bad outcome.

I really appreciate the considerations you've shown in your responses. And as I said, I apologise for lashing out and making you feel terrible because from the general reactions it was a misunderstanding on my own end and you didn't mean it.
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Post Post #1599 (isolation #45) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:12 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1596, MariaR wrote:You want me to tryhard for a post and take you down Zaiden? Really want me to start trying? Okay prep yourself.
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Post Post #1601 (isolation #46) » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Forum Mafia's been sabotaging my sleep schedule lately. I don't know why I keep doing this when I have to get up in 6-7 hours every day. Anyway, I'll be off. Gnight.
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Post Post #1679 (isolation #47) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:21 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1635, Cheetory6 wrote:
I'm going to take the controversial and unbrave stance of there being exact one mafia in the pile of Pink Ball/Spring Breeze and that can be an end of day sorting problem.
I'm not so confident there's exactly 1 mafia in that pile like you're saying. But I can buy into the idea that that there could be one one given the unusual intensity of their interactions and it's been bugging me since their first few interactions earlier in the game. I'm also down to dive deeper here though I think there's other cases that are wider in the open.
In post 1635, Cheetory6 wrote:
I haven't done a Jake ISOdive yet but it feels like its done nothing since it was pushed and it feels like Jake's trying to coast its way through the game.
I agree that Jake has been sitting back a bit now when the scrutiny shifted from them to me/Jingle. They've offered some takes which mainly consist of flinging dirt at myself and Jingle + less active players. That seems rather driven by survival as opposed to genuine scum hunting.
In post 835, Jake The Wolfie wrote:
In post 831, midwaybear wrote:
In post 829, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Why did you choose to go after me in particular?
Because I'm scared of Pooky

Your vote on Gamma wasn't great, and you were falling under the radar. Do you find me scummy for going after you?
No, I don't.

Why wouldn't you choose to go after someone who's been a little less contentful (like Clidd/Morning Tweet, for example.)
This is literally what I said about how they said 'Oh look wonder what PrivateI thinks' to draw away attention from himself and onto others earlier this game. He seems very content with going under the radar and trying to use other less active players to try and deflect attention from themselves. To me this is scummy. Though when others say that Jake usually seems suspicious and dies early as town, it makes me wonder if this is just how they usually are as town. Would need others more familiar with Jake to weigh in for their thoughts.
In post 1635, Cheetory6 wrote:
Jake and S_S are my highest priority sorts rn.
Also when you talk about wanting to focus Jake or S_S, what do you (and other people) generally make of the possibility that Cakez was trying to pocket me? Unwarranted paranoia from Team Team Team Team Team or genuine ground for that to be a possibility? I'm generally reading you as less scummy now but the way you haven't really engaged with that angle when I've spoken about it (you bad cop Cakez good cop scum buddy routine) is making me wonder if you're intentionally avoiding it.
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Post Post #1688 (isolation #48) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:53 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1622, Spring Breeze wrote:it's true i don't think i've been super on ball with the game so i combed back through and i think these takes are a lot truer to my heart. list isn't ordered.

- cheetory is a townread, even taking away the emotional reason which i don't think i should focus on anymore. he's generally invested, and i especially like how he said he was going to go v/la but couldn't help but come back to comment on things about the game.
- noraa i think is town. she's actually playing very similar to a game i hard scumread her in and she was town. this is also one of the reads infinity feels really good about so i am locking in
- spf; my teammate infinity says he mindmelds with her a lot, and i agree she's had good takes, but i don't think she's towntold enough for a townread. this maria post () still pings me; i still think is too logic leapy, and she expresses a townread on mariar for it which i think is unwarranted. i don't *think* i'm misunderstanding the point, or at least am too far off
- pooky is my randsoultown. we played a game just before and he was a lot like this, and i'd think scum!pooky would be trying to control the gamestate/do something meaningful. he does know this, but i still feel he's town, i suppose. he just doesn't seem to care.
- morning tweet, i think is town for the confidence with the noraa read. i've played with scum!morning briefly and don't think she likes to make waves.
- jake is lhf, but should absolutely not be townread by any stretch of the imagination
- s_s, i am nullscumleaning for popping in at apparently the right moments to make jokes, but doesn't offer anything.
- sircakez has in general been pretty unafraid to give his opinions, and tonally reads as blunt town. maybe it's a soulread, i just think he's town
- zaiden; i liked his attempts to scumhunt with the conversations with his team members. i looked back and think i am probably putting too much stock into that emotional read so i am flipping here again. tonally town because i find him funny, but bias aside, he's probably a light townlean/null.
- gypx, i think is town. he's low effort solving, but still solving
- maria, on reflection, i can see being similar to pooky so i'm not that suspicious of her being put to the side as town for a lot of players. personally, i have no idea and i don't think my opinion matters on this
- pink ball, i'm pretty self conscious that i'm an attractive push for scum, but i don't think i can in good faith call that a scum push. otherwise content is a lot of asking questions and short comments which is pretty null.
- jingle, i still don't like his original noraa push. the points are nitpicky and generally reachy to come to the conclusion that noraa is scum. i do like (agree) with his reasoning behind the PR point noraa brought up though. i feel is still weak suppliment for a "very confident scumread" on noraa. the first question cheetory asked about noraa was a "this is more likely read," and the second one was just an inconsistency. i don't think he answered my question about the BoP.
- murdersunny; i have seen murdercat in other games though and he generally has a lot to say. the fact he's popped in a few times and said he's had nothing to say/nothing is happening feels strange because i almost feel like he wouldn't be able to contain his opinions as town if he's town. the change in playstyle is leantown, but it also lets him get away with not offering opinions. i'm fully open to looking at his case though

my team hasn't been around for this game, although infinity did say he was confident in noraa town, and he mindmelds with spf a while ago, and ydrasse said noraa was prob!town, which was also while ago
@Spring Breeze. Assuming Nora is usually like this in their other games Infinity seems a bit too confident on that read imo considering those things. I want you to ask Infinity why they feel confident and to give a better explanation.

I will ignore that mindmeld segment on SPF because I don't deal with that stuff very well. Yes, I do think that the townread from SPF onto MariaR seems like a leap in logic. However mafia is a game that requires those sorts of leaps in logic and we all take leaps in logics for our reads/thoughts and the leap seems to be made to try and engage with many other players in good faith. Do you have anything to say about anything else SPF has done so far and why it wouldn't give you town vibes?

On Pooky, do other people think scum!Pooky is more likely to sit back or more likely to control the game? I haven't sensed vibes from Pooky trying to control discourse, but I reckon there are other low key ways of controlling the game (really influencing 1-3 individuals and I get the feeling if Pooky was influencing anyone it would be Spring Breeze here) and forming your own bloc. I want more people to talk about Pooky like Spring Breeze does here because I'm not getting a good grasp of Pooky/Spring Breeze here and there's less discussion around them compared to Nora.

Morning - seems like an easy town/null read to sheep for people. Jake also an easy null/scum read for people.

If you actually nullscum S_S why not try to advocate a case on him or push him like Cheetory6 is doing?

In what way is Gypyx solving? I'm getting less solving vibes from Gypyx and more framing vibes. Could you go a bit deeper on your thoughts about Gypyx and why they seem good when it feels like the total opposite atm?

Hahahaha. MariaR the deadpan cynic being similar to that wholesome bundle of floof known as Pooky the Magical Bear. I couldn't think of a bigger contrast. But apparently it's a 'soulread'. Can't see the logic in this one but okay. MariaR hasn't been that active and I'm waiting for them to engage with me to get a better grasp of them.

For Pink Ball's proposal, I also don't think you are as attractive to push for scum compared to the other wagons available, but maybe that's just me confbiasing with how my own wagon played out. From what I can see Pink Ball applied pressure, didn't get the response they were looking for so is applying even more pressure, which makes sense to me. Why do you perceive yourself as an attractive wagon compared to other players in this game?

Interesting how you weren't nitpicky with posts about other players (apart from SPF) and didn't quote anyone else but then specifically nitpicky about quoting Jingle using a specific post here. Potentially premeditated SvS interaction where they discussed framing a specific post a particular way? Could you expand more on your Jingle read beyond that one specific post?

Overall I'm not convinced by this reads list. It doesn't go deep enough for the amount of content and interactions we've had across 60+ pages. However I do think this game has been overwhelming. And there could be deeper thoughts you didn't immediately express so that your list didn't get too bloated. So try to get back to me on the points I've raised if you can.
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Post Post #1689 (isolation #49) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:54 am

Post by Zaiden »

Also I want to clear this up once and for all. Could someone write me an Explain Like I'm 5 about soulread/mindmeld or is this a meme that's completely whooshed over my head?
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Post Post #1693 (isolation #50) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1649, Noraa wrote:Ok gypyx if you were in tenet and read any of posts, you should be locktowning me here and I don't expect anything less than that.
Nora, why do you expect Gypyx to be able to accurately locktown you here but hardly trust in anyone else? Is this a case of Gypyx having a great historical record of correctly reading you? Is Gypypx just differently built from the rest of us? If that was a joke that I didn't get ignore me.
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Post Post #1694 (isolation #51) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:57 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1692, Cheetory6 wrote:
In post 1689, Zaiden wrote:Also I want to clear this up once and for all. Could someone write me an Explain Like I'm 5 about soulread/mindmeld or is this a meme that's completely whooshed over my head?
Soulread is like
"I can feel this person's alignment deep within my soul"
and
mindmeld is like..
"me and this person we have combined our brains into an all powerful conglomerate and all of our opinions on the gamestate are aligned as a result of this"
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Post Post #1695 (isolation #52) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:59 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1691, Noraa wrote:
In post 1690, Noraa wrote:
In post 1688, Zaiden wrote:Assuming Nora is usually like this in their other games Infinity seems a bit too confident on that read imo considering those things. I want you to ask Infinity why they feel confident and to give a better explanation.
INFINITY IS FOREVER MY SOUL MASON
AFTER YELLOWSTONE WE ARE BONDED MY SOUL ENERGY FOREVER AND EVER
If Infinity is your 'soul mason' then what's your issue with Spring Breeze reading you as town? Is it more that you expect Infinity to townread you, but for Spring Breeze to be reluctant to agree on that opinion?
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Post Post #1699 (isolation #53) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:03 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1655, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 1622, Spring Breeze wrote:spf; my teammate infinity says he mindmelds with her a lot, and i agree she's had good takes, but i don't think she's towntold enough for a townread. this maria post (1209) still pings me; i still think is too logic leapy, and she expresses a townread on mariar for it which i think is unwarranted. i don't *think* i'm misunderstanding the point, or at least am too far off
Does mind meld = towny and logic leap = scummy? I haven't really found either of those to be the case in my experience.
You might be onto something here, S_S.

With mind meld, soul reads and logic leap I'm starting to think we're all in some sports anime where when you go on to face against better teams or players, the normal sports shit you'd expect aren't there and it becomes a completely different game with superpowers, mind-reading and power of friendship or some shit.
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Post Post #1748 (isolation #54) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:00 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1712, midwaybear wrote:So did everybody just ignore PrivateI?
My bad, I genuinely missed PrivateI's post. Apologies PrivateI. It was between my final post at the end of the day before going to sleep and the back and forth between Jake and Gypyx so it got lost in there somewhere for me. And it didn't look big either because of the expand spoiler thing. I'll have a look in a bit.
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Post Post #1825 (isolation #55) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:59 pm

Post by Zaiden »

I just realised Cheetory's profile pic is Claire from Baccano. Unless I got that wrong. Should be the same artist. The familiarity had been bugging me for a while.
Noticed Morning Tweet posted this banger. Love Kiznaiver's OP theme. I thought Kiznaiver had some really good ideas going on behind it, and the classic Trigger animation/energy to go with it. But I wasn't entirely convinced by the execution in the end. Think Trigger should stick with their high octane action flicks instead of delving into Mari Okada style love dodecahedron stories.

Re: PrivateI

Think PrivateI's analysis is definitely way beyond surface level. Goes deep and they've really given clear thoughts to the game. You've also commented on your analysis into Zaiden vs Cheetory and Pink Ball vs Spring Breeze interactions, which I think have been the high profile ones in this game so far. And you're offering unique perspectives that don't just come down to following a consensus. Your thought progressions are mostly clear, though there are some leaps in logic where I believe you attempted to infer things to try and close some gaps? Some of them I follow, some I don't. At least none of those leaps compare to Jake allegedly town-leaning Nora in 294 for saying 'PEACHES ARE SUPERIOR' as PrivateI quite correctly points out as being confusing. For now I'm upgrading from null to town-lean because even on the points I don't entirely agree with, I can see where they're trying to come from.

From my perspective Nora defending me when I was getting wagon'd and being emotionally re-assuring felt quite genuine. Not that it's alignment indicative per se. But I don't think it was 'fake'. Or maybe I want to pretend it's real because I'd honestly be pretty heartbroken if it was all a ruse. Nora seemed nice enough. I thought I'd weigh in with some insight on those sets of interactions because it directly involved me.

Some questions.

Why are third votes on a wagon bad? I was under the impression you eventually want to third vote to generate pressure on someone and get people talking. If third votes are an inevitable progression from RVS why are they frowned upon? (I guess this can also be more of a general question)

Is random chaotic bad? From my experience with people who behave chaotic/random in real life, it's more like you can't be sure of your guess. Sometimes they could be town? Sometimes they could be scum. Although I believe people here have played games with Nora and would be better informed on reading them. But I don't think it means they're certified scum. Although I'll feel really stupid if they've actually run me in circles. (I guess this is also more of a general question)

What about Spring Breeze qualifies as a townlean when the general consensus seems to be that they're not pulling their weight in this game? You even said yourself 191 reads bad, then you agree with their Cakez read. But surely that balances out to a null? What do you make of SpringBreeze's recent set of reads?

Also if you agree with Spring Breeze's argument in the 191 post, any idea what you felt the ping could have been? Or is that something you don't know and are speculating this is how scum!Cakez operates? For now I will be speculating that it's because you said you scumlean PinkBall. So do you rationalise PinkBall's push onto Spring Breeze as scum trying to pressure an wagon onto your townlean? Also, do you think they have some legitimate points about Spring Breeze's contributions so far in this game? From my perspective, I do think the push was quite non-committal but I thought Pink Ball raised some good points and decided to follow it up. Barring exceptional developments, I plan on voting Spring Breeze if they don't get back to me sometime soon.
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Post Post #1826 (isolation #56) » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:59 pm

Post by Zaiden »

I also think I've been doing some stuff wrong. To better understand Pooky/Spring Breeze/Nora, I think I'll have to give soulreading/mind melding a go as well to try and figure out where they come from.

Any volunteers want to soul read/mind meld with me?
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Post Post #2090 (isolation #57) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:41 am

Post by Zaiden »

My thoughts on the Cakez/S_S set of interactions:

@Cakez, you've answered a few of the questions I'd had. However, I'm not convinced by the 'meta shift' argument because I would have assumed it's in town's best interest to remain consistent with their town meta, especially in something like a team mafia game where more is on the line. Or are you trying to say that your development as a player is completely separate from meta altogether? Although I'm in agreement of Gypyx being a scumread I'm not following your progression for why Gypyx is scum. Could you elaborate on the overlaps between TENET (which I didn't play in) and this game? To the person who said this game is different from TENET - how different and would it disqualify any comparison to this game?
In post 1938, Noraa wrote:S_S' s only scummy thing this game is that they are full of IIoa.
They aren't talking that much game related/useful/helpful things.
A lot of what they say is entirely useless and like sideline-y.
If that's the scum case, its weak but I do buy it.
Had a google of IIoa. Didn't S_S analyse Cakez's scum meta to try and prove a point as opposed to purely spewing information? I think it's disingenuous to pretend there's a lack of analysis from S_S. It's just that S_S has chosen to focus on one person. Nora, does that mean Pink Ball has IIoa'd against Spring Breeze from your perspective too for focusing hard on bringing a case against a single person?
In post 1952, SirCakez wrote:
In post 1940, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 1937, midwaybear wrote:Well what would you do as scum then?
Probably something similar, maybe a little less intense. But I would be genuinely doing it to understand, and not to change his mind.
Ok so this is basically admitting you are doing what you'd do as scum.
With S_S, I also don't think scum would outright admit 'This is how I would act as scum'. And I don't think scum would readily admit to that or rail so hard against Cakez in such a public way. I'm townleaning S_S here.
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Post Post #2103 (isolation #58) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:56 am

Post by Zaiden »

Just saw Pink Ball's super post. Seems good to me. I knew I wasn't going crazy over how weird/unproductive the Soul Mason memes and flirting was. Followed by nothing of substance. And apparently my third vote was opportunistic. Like really? Plus Spring Breeze didn't give any sort of response to my recent post to them outside of 'get back tomorrow' - which I think shows a real lack of urgency I would personally have expected from town.

The only point I'd differ on is that I wouldn't give Pooky the benefit of the doubt PinkBall has. If they've played together so much and Pooky knows them extremely well and is meant to have a 100% soulread on Spring Breeze or whatever, surely that means Pooky wouldn't be missing out on these details or off vibes?

Vote: Spring Breeze
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Post Post #2140 (isolation #59) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:15 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 1964, Noraa wrote:and you'd also have to change urs to this:

Image
Although the resolution is looking a bit low, wow, that's looking pretty damn realistic. Tekken 9 looking great. Can't wait to play that with ray tracing turned on.
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Post Post #2145 (isolation #60) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:18 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2143, Jingle wrote:Oh shit. I just realized Maria promised a wallpost about Zaiden before disappearing two days ago.

Quick, Zaiden, vote me before she comes back.
Oh shit, you right.

Vote: Jingle
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Post Post #2189 (isolation #61) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:58 am

Post by Zaiden »

Yeah mb just saw the TENET stuff after I posted and can agree it was a different game. In that case, are there any other games you can reference where Pooky shows a similar scum meta?
In post 2090, Zaiden wrote:With S_S, I also don't think scum would outright admit 'This is how I would act as scum'. And I don't think scum would readily admit to that or rail so hard against Cakez in such a public way. I'm townleaning S_S here.
Why not[/quote]

Upon re-reading that interaction and realising it was a response to MWB, I suppose S_S can't deny 'This is how I would react as scum' because they would get called out for lying. And as for railing hard against you, I think it was Cheetory who essentially asked both of you to 1v1 so it wasn't a case made out of nowhere of their own initiative. In hindsight, that post definitely seems a bit too prepared since Cheetory literally asked on a short notice, as if S_S hoped the game would go in that direction. I think it's more the fact I would have expected scum!S_S to sit back, play some defence and let you dig yourself into a hole or for the rest of the wagon to do the dirty work (considering how the game's been flowing) rather than proactively bury you with that string of meta reads.
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Post Post #2191 (isolation #62) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:59 am

Post by Zaiden »

Fak I effed up my post formatting. Can someone mod edit correct it for me? Thanks.
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Post Post #2199 (isolation #63) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:06 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2196, Jingle wrote:
In post 2191, Zaiden wrote:Fak I effed up my post formatting. Can someone mod edit correct it for me? Thanks.
Only UT is allowed and I don't think he ever fixes tags in his games. Technically the other LMods could, but it would be an abuse of power. If you think it's unreadable, you can repost like PB did, or you can just leave it be (which is fine here).
How come everyone else get to edit but I can't?
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Post Post #2258 (isolation #64) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:00 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2202, Jingle wrote:
In post 2199, Zaiden wrote:How come everyone else get to edit but I can't?
Inside a game topic only Listmods and players marked as moderators for that game topic can edit.

In GD, everyone should be able to edit their own posts I think.

In PT's, the PT owner can give editing powers.

Anything that says PEdit stands for preview edit.
Oh right I took PEdit to be some sort of edit. Thanks for clarifying!
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Post Post #2259 (isolation #65) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:01 am

Post by Zaiden »

Also I just noticed something. Does one of Gamma or MariaR have a double vote for me? Or is that a Vote Count mistake?
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Post Post #2260 (isolation #66) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:02 am

Post by Zaiden »

Oh wait I was meant to PM that. Sry.
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Post Post #2264 (isolation #67) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:24 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2213, MariaR wrote:Feeling sick will try and get to this tomorrow
Btw, you might have declared a Wall War on me but I'm sorry to hear you're feeling sick. Take care and hope you feel better tomorrow!
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Post Post #2269 (isolation #68) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:03 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2265, PrivateI wrote:do i have a negative covid test? not yet. do i have spicy takes? not really.

Zaiden, how are ya feeling about Pooky yourself lately?
I just don't believe someone who's got so much experience playing with this specific person wouldn't notice all the things Pink Ball pointed out. I know that people are claiming Spring Breeze subtly manipulated Pooky. But Pooky doesn't strike me as someone who gets subtly manipulated that easily. For Pink Ball's point about Pooky helping out Spring Breeze more if they were scum buddies, I think that makes sense only if scum has day chat which they don't always have.
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Post Post #2291 (isolation #69) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:19 am

Post by Zaiden »

Alright. I'm gonna shift my vote back to Spring Breeze because I'm not convinced by their response to Pink Ball and they didn't address what I asked them.

Vote: Spring Breeze
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Post Post #2411 (isolation #70) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:36 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Not even an attempt to respond to my questions. I think that settles it for me then.
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Post Post #2417 (isolation #71) » Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:44 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2412, SirCakez wrote:Who is that at Zaiden?
It was at Spring Breeze. And sure, people can say 'give her time'. But it doesn't feel like she's interested in engaging back for whatever reason. I had to check with mods if this was allowed and had Hectic help me phrase this but I'm not convinced she doesn't have time when she's elitelling in other games but refuses to engage with this game and actively lurks (somehow she knew was being cased too despite allegedly being away - which gives credibility to the idea of a day scum chat).
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Post Post #2573 (isolation #72) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:31 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 2447, staypositivefriend wrote:@Zaiden - episode 2 of wonder egg priority was very strong! it wasn't quite on the same level as episode 1, but i absolutely love the path that the series has taken, and i think it has the potential to be one of the greatest of all time psychological animes

i find it funny that there's a solid chance that the show will have finished airing entirely by the time that this game is over
If you like it, I'm sure you'll like Kunihiko Ikuhara's stuff - Revolutionary Girl Utena, Mawaru Penguindrum, Sarazanmai. Although Ikuhara isn't directly involved in any capacity, Wonder Egg Priority definitely feels inspired along those lines. We'll see how it turns out. Across the 1000+ anime I've watched, many started off strong then fizzled out. But even if it begins to fall off, I will still be watching for the KyoAni/Shaft-esque blend of visuals paired with an uncanny and unsettling soundtrack.
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Post Post #2576 (isolation #73) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:33 am

Post by Zaiden »

Not sure if you caught my post Cheetory but is your profile pic Claire Stanfield from Baccano? Certainly looks it to me.
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Post Post #2741 (isolation #74) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:04 am

Post by Zaiden »

I've never played with Spring Breeze before so I can't speak on that count on whether she would do this as scum or town for posting like she did today.

Spring Breeze claiming compulsive fruit vendor does make me think it's a credible claim and I could see her being town that was overwhelmed by the pace of the game. I had many social stuff I had to pass up on so I wouldn't fall ridiculously behind on this game. If I ignored this thread like she did I'm fairly sure I would be the one that died today. I think the issue here for me is that they've refused to engage with us and be helpful until it's come this far. My thoughts are that it can't be harmless to figure some more stuff out in the next few days. The deadline's a week away.

But in addition to what other people have said about worries on oversaturating this thread (making it difficult to go back and sift for scummy tells) eventually we will need to politely ask someone to leave and I'm more or less concerned about this being a repeat cycle or something. Where 2-3 people put out claims that convince people off their wagon making us really uncertain and I can't see how that would be any good. The line's got to stop somewhere.
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Post Post #2743 (isolation #75) » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:05 am

Post by Zaiden »

(When I say social stuff I'm talking about online over Discord and not actually meeting up with people in real life during this global pandemic)
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Post Post #3063 (isolation #76) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:15 am

Post by Zaiden »

I am confused at Nora's proposition of Pink Ball being scum as well as me. As far as I'm concerned, Pink Ball is my strongest townread who correctly read Spring Breeze as scum and SPF as town. I don't read Nora's defence of Spring Breeze leading up to the elimination as being alignment indicative because I could see Nora hard tunnelling people as obv town/obv scum because that just seems to be how they operate. But let's say if Nora is town here they were wrong about Spring Breeze and they're wrong about me being scum so I'm pretty sure they're just wrong about Pink Ball. That said, I suppose there's a reason why she's being insistent and I'll wait to hear. Although my team thinks it's extremely unlikely they did tell me a coordinated D1 scum bus happened in a previous Team Mafia game. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that Pink Ball is scum who bussed Spring Breeze.

Trackers typically don't track separate night actions just who visits or is visited right? In that scenario if scum believe there's a tracker in the game I think the proposition they would vend fruit to try to hide their kill on the same target makes sense. Especially if they have reason to believe there is a mechanical purpose behind peaches, it would be in their interest to prevent peaches from falling into the hands of town. But the counterpoint to that is scum could still kill their target and claim to have vended them fruit because their target wouldn't be alive to verify this anyway and it's not like tracker can ascertain the difference. And if there is a mechanical purpose behind peaches for scum too why wouldn't scum just vend peaches between themselves?

Finally, I reckon MariaR was attempting to create a wagon onto me halfway through D1 and it coincided with shifting people off an early Spring Breeze wagon. Then she goes from calling Spring Breeze obv town to hammering them. The connection here is pretty clear to me.

Vote: MariaR
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Post Post #3083 (isolation #77) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:00 am

Post by Zaiden »

Actually something struck me as really strange. If scum wanted to bus, why bus their strongman? Surely it would make more sense to bus a goon or something?

That's what makes me think it probably isn't Pink Ball. And that scum only followed onto the bus once Pink Ball's case made Spring Breeze's elimination seem inevitable.
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Post Post #3097 (isolation #78) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:59 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3093, Pink Ball wrote:If you guys don't start treating me like the IC I am right now I don't even know what's up with you. The level of paranoia you guys are having is not townie, is not "hey I have to consider ALL alternatives because I don't have all the information!", it's plain stupidity. My case is not scum bussing other scum; I DESTROYED SB. Absolutely demolished her. And I gave her enough space to feel comfortable and give us hints on who her teammates are.

Murdersunny, step up dude. Yes, scum probably voted SB. Do you think the best approach to this day is to look at 10 players? From my perspective, all votes after mine are absolutely NAI because SB would never come back from the case I made; as I already said, I destroyed SB. Read SB's ISO again and you'll get a far better and narrowed down playerlist to focus on.

That is all. Stop fucking around.
I do follow you and I agree that outside of you there's no real coherently townie read progression from anyone else that followed because they all followed on from you, SPF and myself included. But I think some votes particularly stand out from the 10 players. Are you seriously going to tell me and others that our vote is equally as shady as MariaR's vote? Because from my perspective, no fucking way.
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Post Post #3111 (isolation #79) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:14 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3100, Noraa wrote:Also Zaidan, lol when did I say you were scum?
That seems like a horrible reason to discredit my "reads"
You're like "you got two wrong(one of which I didn't even strongly believe in myself or say much), therefore, we shall ignore all your opinions from now on"
I'm not saying I'm ignoring your opinions or that you're scum. But you've given no explanations whatsoever. If someone tells me to jump off a cliff and trust them without any explanations, wouldn't I be a fucking retard to actually jump off a cliff without knowing if there are any safety measures in place? You need to actually tell us something. Anything. Only somehow you seriously expect people to blindly follow what you're saying. I've given reasons as to why I do not believe Pink Ball is scum. Add this to you getting Spring Breeze wrong and somehow considering I'm scum with PB in one of your earlier posts D2, that's 3/3 confirmed wrong from my perspective (I can't speak for Pooky and PrivateI). If you are town you seriously need to go and re-evaluate the game. Yet you don't seem interested in doing that at all. Is it that difficult to admit you might be completely wrong?

pedit: Like you didn't even address why would scum!Pink Ball bus strong man? Why not just bus some random goon?
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Post Post #3127 (isolation #80) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3120, Pink Ball wrote:@Zaiden don't use the r word dude
Apologies. I forget that the r word is seen as a lot more offensive in the USA. It's less offensive than the f word in the UK. I'll bear that in mind going forwards.
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Post Post #3151 (isolation #81) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:32 am

Post by Zaiden »

Okay, let's agree to disagree and move on to discussing MariaR?

What are your thoughts, @Pink Ball and @Nora?
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Post Post #3303 (isolation #82) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:51 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3301, Something_Smart wrote:
where did Zaiden go?
I went off to prepare dinner for my family + eat dinner. Now I'm back reading through the thread.
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Post Post #3339 (isolation #83) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:45 am

Post by Zaiden »

I initially didn't like how Morning Tweet played down my role in the Spring Breeze wagon as an easy vote swap. I was waiting for someone else to point this out because I thought it was pretty obvious. But no one else did, so I guess I can believe that people have that general perception. Jingle also makes a good point that she's trying to advance the game state by analysing the votes onto Spring Breeze. From PB's perspective all votes after theirs is useless. But I don't agree with that assertion even if I think MT's overall posts were more surface level and could have gone deeper.
In post 3290, Cheetory6 wrote:the redacted is purely for the sake of my own sanity and has nothing to do with outside of game influence, if that was unclear.
If it wasn't for the greater good I would have sold you out on that redacted. Thanks for making me laugh. Inb4 it wasn't who I thought it was.
In post 3275, Jake The Wolfie wrote:
In post 3273, SirCakez wrote:I feel like town is in control of this game
Like in Xeno 2 after I got merced day 1
Which town do you feel are in control right now?
I think it's a pertinent question to ask. But at present time I feel like this is trying to frame a conspiracy to undermine consensus townreads - rightfully or wrongfully - further down the line if things go wrong.
In post 3276, SirCakez wrote:MURDER what is your read on me in light of yesterday's flip?
I'm not Murder but if you were scum I don't see why you wouldn't sacrifice yourself to try and bail out the strongman. Which is how I would play as scum in your position or Jingle's position. So for me +townread for both you and Jingle. Unless people have any idea what could be better than strongman for Spring Breeze to be a worthy bus over another scum buddy cuz I can't think of any. Anyway, although PB cased SB hard, Murder also cased you and that dominated the discourse for a bit with the potential to take over and it really could have potentially veered into a Cakez elimination with more momentum. Pooky and Gypyx spring out as the two people who joined Murder in pushing Cakez running counter to Spring Breeze's wagon. So I'm gonna have a brief look at these two and the context of their interactions with my top scum suspect - MariaR.

I wouldn't be able to understand why Gypyx would set up for a MariaR bus as scum if Spring Breeze was already looking donezo. Just want some clarification. @Gypyx, you've generally been pushing MariaR but I wanted to know what you meant by this particular post: viewtopic.php?p=12537160&user_select%5B ... #p12537160. This specific piece of interaction seems a bit unnatural to me. I can't tell if you're trying to say she's scum or +townread or somewhere in between. Though it could just be me misunderstanding what you're trying to say here.

I can give Pooky some benefit of the doubt defending his love because of emotions and stuff. Even if I'm somewhat unconvinced. But parsing through the ISOs I haven't seen any meaningful interaction between Pooky and MariaR. Anything to say on this matter, Pooky?
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Post Post #3351 (isolation #84) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:14 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3345, MariaR wrote:
In post 3294, Gypyx wrote:maria, you keep saying you're out of your scumrange but like, what's your scumrange?
In a game like this where it's team mafia? A) I would be a lot more active and vocal. Would not have allowed my partner to die Day 1 if I could help it by pushing other wagons hard
2) Never kill SPF here
ever

I am so far out of my range it's insane rn
In post 3295, Gamma Emerald wrote:her scumrange is p much infinite
any time she says she's "outside of her scumrange" it's bs

but that doesn't mean she's scum yet
Not true, scum is just easy to play so it's easy to win. It doesn't make my scum range infinite. Just because I
can
do a lot of things as scum doesn't mean I would.
You instigated a wagon against me which had the effect of taking early pressure of Spring Breeze. Vanishing conveniently when it looked like my wagon could materialise into an elimination. And then you declared a Wall War on me to try and bury the hatchet without following up on it. Though you did become ill, so we'll give you some benefit of the doubt here. But you did come back to try and bail out Spring Breeze asking why we were voting out obv town. Then you must have realised it would look really bad for you if you opportunistically came back after being gone for most of the game just to defend someone who was not escaping elim thanks to Pink Ball's case. You couldn't defend SB harder because PB sent her to the shadow realm. In PB's words, there was no coming back from that once he made that post.

I don't know if scum!MariaR would never kill Spring Breeze here. I'll let someone else respond to that point. But for me I will use Occam's Razor here and explain it as MariaR knowing that SPF wouldn't let her go tomorrow.
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Post Post #3356 (isolation #85) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3353, Cheetory6 wrote:have you ever considered just being bad at being mafia
Dude that was a bit harsh. I thought you were reformed.
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Post Post #3361 (isolation #86) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:26 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3354, MariaR wrote:
In post 3351, Zaiden wrote:
In post 3345, MariaR wrote:
In post 3294, Gypyx wrote:maria, you keep saying you're out of your scumrange but like, what's your scumrange?
In a game like this where it's team mafia? A) I would be a lot more active and vocal. Would not have allowed my partner to die Day 1 if I could help it by pushing other wagons hard
2) Never kill SPF here
ever

I am so far out of my range it's insane rn
In post 3295, Gamma Emerald wrote:her scumrange is p much infinite
any time she says she's "outside of her scumrange" it's bs

but that doesn't mean she's scum yet
Not true, scum is just easy to play so it's easy to win. It doesn't make my scum range infinite. Just because I
can
do a lot of things as scum doesn't mean I would.
You instigated a wagon against me which had the effect of taking early pressure of Spring Breeze. Vanishing conveniently when it looked like my wagon could materialise into an elimination. And then you declared a Wall War on me to try and bury the hatchet without following up on it. Though you did become ill, so we'll give you some benefit of the doubt here. But you did come back to try and bail out Spring Breeze asking why we were voting out obv town. Then you must have realised it would look really bad for you if you opportunistically came back after being gone for most of the game just to defend someone who was not escaping elim thanks to Pink Ball's case. You couldn't defend SB harder because PB sent her to the shadow realm. In PB's words, there was no coming back from that once he made that post.
pedit: Fuck you right Cheet I'll get right on that
VOTE: Cheet

I don't know if scum!MariaR would never kill Spring Breeze here. I'll let someone else respond to that point. But for me I will use Occam's Razor here and explain it as MariaR knowing that SPF wouldn't let her go tomorrow.
I still have my old wall on you saved in my notes if you're really that interested in reading it but I don't think that solves much in this exact standpoint of the game. In fact, it kinda just takes away from everything more than anything else since I want the elim to be in 1/3 people. Also to say my wagon on you took pressure off Spring Breeze would be wrong since I started it and the pressure came after I believe? Also, that's rather nitpicky to suggest I only wagoned you to help my partner when the early pressure wasn't much to begin with.
I was sick, came back to people telling me in my PT Spring was obv town and made that post. Saw she was at L-1 and was like 'lol I can rest more? Bye!' Why does me as a wolf try to bail out a partner at L-1 instead of just going with the flow? Obviously what I did makes me look worse but you never consider the 'why'
I could feel it. There was scrutiny on me for being third vote on Spring Breeze but your vote and reasoning was like the oil that set it alight and the votes piled onto me. To me it felt like the ignition point capitalising on the scrutiny at the time that was on me. You also conveniently vanished and didn't offer further input once my wagon was taking off and only returned to shade me with an attempted wall war once the wagon fizzled out.
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Post Post #3363 (isolation #87) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:35 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3358, MariaR wrote:@Zaiden From Mena: Are you intentionally dense or if it’s just incidental
Stuff does go over my head a lot. I often struggle to pick up on sarcasm or non serious quips. I can't claim to be as smart as the rest of my team since I'm more of the resident weeb. That's just how I am really.
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Post Post #3364 (isolation #88) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:37 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3362, MariaR wrote:'Conveniently vanished' is an assumption that you have no backing or proof to make such a claim of.
If it was once you conveniently vanished, fair enough. But it was more than once. And all occurrences of vanishing were exceedingly convenient from my point of view. That's the thing.
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Post Post #3369 (isolation #89) » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:49 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3366, Cheetory6 wrote:I think given that Maria's saying her absence has been partially related to being sick, I think it's probably better to keep that kind of reasoning in your back pocket.
Anytime you phrase questioning in terms of someone's ability to be here and call the validity of that into question it kind of goes beyond the scope of the game and becomes a little ethically wonky.

My general rule is to trust that people aren't going to lie about their absences in terms of IRL stuff and to instead try to read them based on their play when they are here.
Okay, that's fair enough. I think you make a fair point about believing people about IRL stuff and respecting the integrity of the game.

@MariaR, apologies. But then I wanted to ask. Do tell why you pushed me originally, have your thoughts changed and why, and what are your opinions on the current game state and who you think SB's scum partners are?
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Post Post #3468 (isolation #90) » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:12 am

Post by Zaiden »

I bought a defective graphics card (knew it was broken but it was way under market value and I wanted the challenge of fixing it) and I'm mostly going to be spending my time tinkering with this bad boy. So I will probably be spending less time on Forum Mafia until I can verify if it's fixable/not fixable.

I don't know why Pink Ball reads MariaR as town. I'm halfway through gathering a case against her though I need to read through some more of her town games to make sure I'm not slipping into some confirmation bias stuff from seeing stuff in her scum games.
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Post Post #3472 (isolation #91) » Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:19 am

Post by Zaiden »

From a cursory read I'm down to help pressure PrivateI for responses. I still think it's MariaR though (unless my dive into her town game ISO tells me I'm just confirmation biasing on the scum game samples) and might shift my vote depending on how PrivateI responds.
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Post Post #3776 (isolation #92) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:43 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3658, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3646, MURDERSUNNY wrote:40 minutes pass but no one else posted in the main thread.
Okay yeah actually this DOES make PI look worse imo
The person who ended up being the fluke did have this correction posted very quickly, and it was a scum-scum reader-readee situation so I’m like “hey that comes across as quite similar so maybe my mile-a-minute brain hit a chord here”
VOTE: PrivateI
Putting this here as an expression of my faith in this
What do these sequence of posts mean, if someone would be kind enough to explain. How does 40 minutes of no posting reflect badly on PrivateI? I'm not following here.
In post 3673, Noraa wrote:Thats not spicy and its a total vanity wagon that's literally not going to go thru in this game state regardless of if its on scum.
Something struck me when I saw Nora describe S_S's vote like this. Do people consider my vote on MariaR a vanity wagon and if so, why? I'm surprised to see so many townreads on MariaR. I guess from your perspectives, if she drops something you all considered a town tell that would make sense. From my perspective, a lot of stuff doesn't add up. Still working on the case that balances the likelihood of town/scum for MariaR. I'll set myself a deadline of this Friday to release it so stay tuned. I truly believe votes for PB/MS are vanity/anti-town right now. But that's because they literally have discernable + concrete contributions D1 that form the basis behind consensus townreads - which MariaR utterly lacks.

To add to the discussion on S_S that MariaR has been pushing. Something_Smart's vote onto Spring Breeze was quite quick and opportunistic - considering they had been on Cakez the whole time. But my thought goes and I agree with Cakez here, if Something_Smart is scum, might they hesitate a bit before committing to the Spring Breeze wagon to see if the situation could be salvaged rather than instantly placing down the vote? I don't know Something_Smart as a person/player so I can't comment on this.

But I'd be surprised if they made the quick decision to abandon their buddy and fit in as opposed to waiting things out a bit - since their vote came down extremely quickly without putting up any formalities. Whereas MariaR literally slammed down her vote as the hammer without any explanation when everything looked doom despite posturing Spring Breeze as obv town earlier. What I do know is that if there is scum between S_S and MariaR there can only be one. And in this instance I'm definitely leaning towards MariaR here and my guess is that she's scum with an ability related to casting a hammering vote.

Additionally. I'm not actually sure PrivateI's flip would solve much about the game. Or at least more about it compared to MariaR. Their interactions with people were generally limited and even if they flipped town/scum I'm not sure it really tells us who else is town/scum. Unless I've missed something here. Whereas I feel MariaR's flip would tell us more about the game since she's inextricably linked to more people in terms of direct interactions.
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Post Post #3982 (isolation #93) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:46 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 3781, MURDERSUNNY wrote:
In post 3776, Zaiden wrote:What do these sequence of posts mean, if someone would be kind enough to explain. How does 40 minutes of no posting reflect badly on PrivateI? I'm not following here.
I'm questioning how SB noticed she had left 2 players out of a reads list after 40 minutes when no one else posted. One explanation is that it was mentioned in the scum PT by someone who was not mentioned. I don't think it's that important, but it's an idea. It could have just as easily been mentioned by someone who was mentioned. My point was just to fight against the idea that someone mentioned that you would never forget to leave out a buddy (by suggesting that SB intended to put them in at the end and forgot about them).
Ah right. What you said makes a whole lot of sense. Also I will still get around to casing MariaR but I'm happy to leave the wagon since we know there's confirmed scum in the pool Pink Ball has presented. I will continue to contribute. But since I'm not on the executive board of managers/I don't want to accidentally vote off players prematurely before discussion is completed/I'm preoccupied with real life commitments too, let me know if my opinions/reads/vote are required.

I'm down for mass claiming D3 too.
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Post Post #4021 (isolation #94) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:45 pm

Post by Zaiden »

If we have a vigilante shoot Morning Tweet or S_S right?
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Post Post #4022 (isolation #95) » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:46 pm

Post by Zaiden »

That will get rid of time we could potentially waste deciding between the two/getting things wrong on D3/N3.
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Post Post #4089 (isolation #96) » Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:57 am

Post by Zaiden »

Seems good to me.

Vote: Close Thread
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Post Post #4224 (isolation #97) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:46 am

Post by Zaiden »

I'm pretty worried. Vended to Pink Ball on both nights and now he's dead I might not be able to get this confirmed.

I vended Hearken Peach btw. If someone received the Hearken Peach, that would confirm a bus driver does exist in the game, corroborating with what Jake said.
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Post Post #4227 (isolation #98) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:12 am

Post by Zaiden »

Seems pretty clear cut to me. Morning Tweet should be voted out because of what Midwaybear pointed out. Paired with PB's investigation exposing her as one of the three people to visit SPF and I think that slip is one too many coincidences to ignore.
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Post Post #4228 (isolation #99) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

Vote: Morning Tweet


Accounting for S_S being the third person in PB's watch list on SPF N1, there are three possibilities from my POV.

1. S_S is scum and tried to hide fruit in mafia kill targets. MariaR is most probably town.
2. S_S is town and MariaR is scum who tried to throw S_S under the bus.
3. Both are town and I need to rethink this game from these two being a TvS interaction.

I think it makes sense for S_S to claim and speak up so that we can figure all figure out what the situation here is.
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Post Post #4238 (isolation #100) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:03 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 4229, Gypyx wrote:
In post 4228, Zaiden wrote:1. S_S is scum and tried to hide fruit in mafia kill targets. MariaR is most probably town.
????? i don't get your point there

and also, i think someone claimed duplicate fruit flavor receied
MariaR would be town because I don't see why scum MariaR would bus S_S. If it was scum theatre that would be insane to me. I think it also makes sense for scum to vend peaches into their kills assuming they want to stop town from consolidating peaches.

Also I must have missed that because I don't recall duplicate peach flavours being a thing. Seems a bit sketchy to me and I was under the impression that was tied to mods screwing up stuff N1.

On Gypyx interfering with Jake's night action, it resulted in the elimination of essentially confirmed town who had so many peaches. But would scum so... openly claim to such interference?
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Post Post #4241 (isolation #101) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:07 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 4226, Gypyx wrote:
In post 4223, Jake The Wolfie wrote:
In post 4222, Gypyx wrote:
In post 4150, midwaybear wrote:
In post 4148, Noraa wrote:I think its a good sign. I highly doubt watcher is our strongest pr.
Well, I was thinking...
if there is some kind of protective(based off of the strongman), then scum have found a way to neutralize it.
think it's more likely a roleblocker given that they didn't name it "strongman"

what happened jake?
Really, you don't get it?
To be clear, someone
definitely
messed with my ability. if there was a bus driver on pink ball, they should out today, or else we should worry about the mafia's power.
right my bad
Misread this. Thought Gypyx said 'right my bad' in reference to interfering with Jake's ability here.
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Post Post #4261 (isolation #102) » Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:34 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 4259, Noraa wrote:I dont think 5 is excessive but I also dont know shit about setup balance sooo yeah.
I also don't know much about balanced setups but I reckon there's no harm being on the side of caution by operating on the assumption of a worst case scenario.
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Post Post #4420 (isolation #103) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:22 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 4415, SirCakez wrote:
In post 4395, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:the scum team is MT/SS/Cakeboi

MT/SS are scum/scum because neither of them are very enthusiastic about casing each other when they're in a 1v1 gladiate and its probly cuz they're apathetic scumbags who don't really care who dies between the two of them.

I think it's pretty funny Cakeboy is trying to chain Maria into the next elim after Tweetie flips scum so he's probly informed Tweetie flips red here.

Kill them all with fire.

Oh wait we don't do that here. I mean we ask them all to leave politely.
why do both MT and SS scum visit the same person when they are NKing that person? why vend to someone being killed?

Why vend to someone being killed? Because you don't believe there's a tracker in the game and the fruit you vend goes to the grave instead of ending up in town's hands in the event peaches have a mechanical purpose.
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Post Post #4421 (isolation #104) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:24 am

Post by Zaiden »

Whoops, I misquoted that but basically scum could have anticipated tracker but might not have anticipated they would check SPF on N1. And they would try to bury fruit with their target/prevent town acquiring more fruit. So in that sense I could see how it's SvS. Also Pooky makes a good point they should be attacking each other since Pink Ball literally confirms one or the other is scum - unless Nora's right about an untrackable Ninja being in the game.

What is the likelihood of ninja existing?
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Post Post #4439 (isolation #105) » Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:02 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 4424, SirCakez wrote:
In post 4421, Zaiden wrote:Whoops, I misquoted that but basically scum could have anticipated tracker but might not have anticipated they would check SPF on N1. And they would try to bury fruit with their target/prevent town acquiring more fruit. So in that sense I could see how it's SvS. Also Pooky makes a good point they should be attacking each other since Pink Ball literally confirms one or the other is scum - unless Nora's right about an untrackable Ninja being in the game.

What is the likelihood of ninja existing?
but why not just vend fruit to each other?
To avoid suspicion. Eventually we will all have to claim. And vending between themselves might result in unwanted associations with each other should one or another flip.
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Post Post #4633 (isolation #106) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:45 am

Post by Zaiden »

I missed the discourse on Nora/Ventura Peach/MT + SS + SPF possibly vending it to her and pretty much all the questions I would have asked have been answered here. Cheetory and Nora reads like a TvT interaction to me? I don't know either of you on a consistent or personal basis. It honestly depends on whether Nora is this hyperactive/dedicated to eschewing her supposed townliness in scum games as well. And whether she could fake this extent of paranoia.
In post 4594, Cheetory6 wrote:was holding the jingle read a little bit
but I feel like it would be a little irresponsible to not point out that Jingle is like
very
very very very protown as scum
and can very easily sneak into endgame and steal.
I think his mechanical solving this game is just like..
off?

I feel like there's an agenda behind the stuff he's poking/prodding about and I'm not really seeing enough positive results from the stuff he's getting from the stuff he wants claimed. It could just be early on in his mechanical solve but I just feel icky about the amount of stuff he's asked claimed when it can really easily be used by scum to PR hunt which is what a deepwolf Jingle is going to be most worried about here.

I wouldn't send him today/tomorrow but if it gets to final 3 and he's still alive/hasn't completely broken open the game then he needs to get yeeted into the sun.
If you thought Cakez was viably wagoned was Jingle not viably wagoned as a counter to Spring Breeze as well? For me Jingle's a townlean for this reason. In addition to the timings of their votes, their logic behind them and the interactions they've bveen involved in, Jingle was like the only person who called out MariaR for not following up on her wall war declaration against me. I won't quite call what I've compiled a case. It's more of a study. We should definitely still focus on eliminating Morning Tweet. But I need to speak my thought having reviewed 3 recent town games and 3 recent scum games and decided some noticeable characteristics stuck out from her scum games.

In this game MariaR's consistent scum calling card is to pick on some LHF/existing wagon and try to ram it through with excuses. She has a record of launching brazen attacks on town when she's scum that people wouldn't classically attribute to scum: viewtopic.php?p=11701853#p11701853

In this game MariaR demonstrated a tendency of sticking to lazy scum reads (both myself and S_S - though Pink Ball confirmed one or both of MT/SS scum a world exists where MariaR was scum trying to deflect onto town):
In post 1400, MariaR wrote:
In post 1399, catboi wrote:like in a hypothetical scenario where we eliminate aristophanes and he flips town are people going to re-evaluate me or just keep clinging to the same lazy reads
Until you give better reasons for who scum is then I'll stick to my lazy reads <3
They've pretty much forgotten and left their vote on me when there were already lots of votes on my wagon. Hmmmm. Where have I seen this before. If someone called them out I'm pretty sure they would come up with an excuse like 'Oh I was busy' or 'I forgot to be honest'.
In post 1376, MariaR wrote:Why me Titus? Need a helping hand?

My vote was still on Ari purely because I forgot to be honest. Panzer could be scum but that read is more in relation to my own role more than anything else given I like the Tipsy push.
Most importantly, MariaR pops up at opportunistic moments to push things in their scum games. Maybe they aren't a habitual frequent poster. But I want to note that their timing is always extremely damn convenient for when it suits them. And I'm seeing very much the same of this pattern in this game's D1 + D2. Additionally, MariaR claimed their teammate was alerted to something and never even followed up on declaring the Wall War against me. Presumably because once my wagon fizzled out, they hoped this whole matter would be forgotten about and everyone would move on and forget about it. And yeah. It seemed like everyone apart from Jingle and I think Gypyx off the top of my head? (correct me if I'm wrong) were happy to move on and forget.

Most players in this game seem to be giving MariaR a pass for reasons. Yes, Pink Ball townread her. But I think Pink Ball was wrong. I think she was not engaging with me in good faith - invoke her teammates and clammer about glaring flaws only to then... vanish. Vanish like they do in their scum games after making a brazen claim/entrance of sorts on an already piling wagon. And for me, if she flips scum, S_S is literally confirmed town because it would be clear she also wasn't engaging with S_S in good faith.

And the excuse they use to vanish is even the same. Birthday party, big event, etc:

viewtopic.php?p=11704466&user_select%5B ... #p11704466

Not saying you weren't ill btw. I understand you gotta take time off because health comes first. But it's one thing to say 'I need to have some time off'. Then coming in to hammer for the lolz. To me, these actions clamour of hot air + results in an easy town kill if the wagon materialises + ends up being forgotten about when the game moves on. I don't know how people are forgetting these things, because we shouldn't forget about them, we shouldn't give MariaR a free pas. So I've explained why I scum read MariaR and think we should be applying a lot more scrutiny to her as a whole. If people believe I've got stuff incorrect, let me know. I admit 3 most recent scum games isn't a big sample size and there's a chance I've confirmation biased myself here. But do let me know.
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Post Post #5016 (isolation #107) » Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:09 am

Post by Zaiden »

Game reopens for Day 4 sometime last Friday. So I'm off celebrating Lunar New Year. And it literally ends in an instant without any chance for me to offer any input. I won't claim that Pooky was my hardest scumread. But he was definitely within my POE range.

Received Belle Air and SpringPrince peaches during the Night. Can confirm I received SpringPrince from Nora. I don't know why I keep expecting doctor to be in the game because I keep vending peaches to people who end up dying (Pink Ball and Cheetory). Like I was so sure strongman would imply the existence of a protective role and maybe they just got a bit frisky with not protecting Pink Ball and going for maybe a secondary most townread person. Isn't conclusive but the fact I have Cheetory's peach implies he received Hearken the night before yesternight and decided to trust me by vending peach back.

I'm down to massclaim. Other than being caught out by mech elements all scum seemed to have difficulties claiming. So it seems that forcing claims is definitely a good way to make scum commit to a lie they tell till they get exposed for it. If no one else is claiming to vend Ventura/receive Ventura, we probably know that it's a type of peach scum vended (I remember Nora talking about it previously). There's like no reason not to claim Ventura to clear up the situation - which would suggest scum have peaches just like any of us. Although Spring Breeze's flavour flip of selling apricots threw me for a loop, so I'd been thinking there could have been an element for scum where they had non-peach flavours (e.g. Apricots for Spring Breeze). Given developments in this game I believe this probably is not be the case anymore and mods were having fun with flavour. But I just thought I'd throw this out there anyway.

I'm down to eliminate MariaR today. Now that Pooky also flipped scum, this post suggests to me S_S is town because it looks like Pooky is trying to rescue the situation away from MariaR by pushing for a S_S miselim:
In post 4395, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:the scum team is MT/SS/Cakeboi

MT/SS are scum/scum because neither of them are very enthusiastic about casing each other when they're in a 1v1 gladiate and its probly cuz they're apathetic scumbags who don't really care who dies between the two of them.

I think it's pretty funny Cakeboy is trying to chain Maria into the next elim after Tweetie flips scum so he's probly informed Tweetie flips red here.

Kill them all with fire.

Oh wait we don't do that here. I mean we ask them all to leave politely.
Vote: MariaR
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Post Post #5173 (isolation #108) » Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:57 am

Post by Zaiden »

@Jingle, think you said Maria doesn't feel like scum because she'd play more coordinated Day 1 with Pooky.

My impression from the beginning of this game was that Spring Breeze/Pooky were an inseparable double act. If he didn't coordinate Spring Breeze away from her death and Pooky's flip of encryptor suggests day chat exists, I don't think saying Maria would have been more coordinated with scum team is a very good defence based on how that line of logic pretty much exonerated Pooky until Cheetory caught him out.
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Post Post #5206 (isolation #109) » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:27 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Okay, I've been living under a rock and only just caught onto the situation in Texas. Stay safe, Jingle. Hope you, your friend and your family over there make it through no problem.

Thinking back on interactions throughout the game, especially the steep dropout in activity, I can accept that Murder is within the POE range. But the way Murder is saying vote Gypyx after they die makes me think it might not be them? I dunno, I really hesitate when people go in with a death wish in real life because it's quite often townie frustration rather than scum resignation. But you can't read these things like tone/body language on an online game. So I'm gonna have to go with unsure here. But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning. However, I just feel that MariaR has been so much scummier this game. If this game is four scum as people have posited, I've already given my prior reasoning for believing why it's MariaR. And I'm not convinced by the counter arguments suggesting why she might be town. Maybe I just don't know her well enough. But I find it crazy how many people are giving her a pass for behaviour I perceive to be obv scum.

Going back, my biggest gripe with Murder's kamikaze proposal which makes me doubt them is that I don't think it's Gypyx due to how he was focused on the Clidd/MT slot. Gypyx was the one who highlighted Clidd's meta being indicative of the slot's scumminess before Pink Ball caught Morning Tweet out - which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that. Especially when MT was universally middle of the pack read back in D1 until PB exposed her. Also the fact that MariaR voted Gypyx. I distrust her and I feel compelled to innately believe in the person she's voting for.
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Post Post #5260 (isolation #110) » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:53 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5215, Gypyx wrote:
In post 5206, Zaiden wrote:Okay, I've been living under a rock and only just caught onto the situation in Texas. Stay safe, Jingle. Hope you, your friend and your family over there make it through no problem.

Thinking back on interactions throughout the game, especially the steep dropout in activity, I can accept that Murder is within the POE range. But the way Murder is saying vote Gypyx after they die makes me think it might not be them? I dunno, I really hesitate when people go in with a death wish in real life because it's quite often townie frustration rather than scum resignation. But you can't read these things like tone/body language on an online game. So I'm gonna have to go with unsure here. But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning. However, I just feel that MariaR has been so much scummier this game. If this game is four scum as people have posited, I've already given my prior reasoning for believing why it's MariaR. And I'm not convinced by the counter arguments suggesting why she might be town. Maybe I just don't know her well enough. But I find it crazy how many people are giving her a pass for behaviour I perceive to be obv scum.

Going back, my biggest gripe with Murder's kamikaze proposal which makes me doubt them is that I don't think it's Gypyx due to how he was focused on the Clidd/MT slot. Gypyx was the one who highlighted Clidd's meta being indicative of the slot's scumminess before Pink Ball caught Morning Tweet out - which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that. Especially when MT was universally middle of the pack read back in D1 until PB exposed her. Also the fact that MariaR voted Gypyx. I distrust her and I feel compelled to innately believe in the person she's voting for.
by the way zaiden, there's only one scum left, so for your last paragraph, if you think anyone is scum, that means everyone else is town
If there is only one scum left, that's great. If I end up being wrong about MariaR, I guess I'm also trying to think who else it could be.
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Post Post #5261 (isolation #111) » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:09 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5222, MURDERSUNNY wrote:
In post 5206, Zaiden wrote:But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning.
I am fighting out of it, using slight AtE which is exactly what I would do as scum because I have the same motivation here that I would have as scum. Which is exactly why you should discount all of it. I admit I have some suss interactions with scum and I said to BoP me at the start of the game. I haven't really gotten to make good on that, except that I was very willing to flip SB and I did call that MT could very well be the scum of the 3 watcher results. Pooky I missed on. So there's not really a chance for me to do that now, except to take my shot and you can all decide to lim me now and give me my shot posthumously or let me take it now and kill me tomorrow.
I need to rephrase what I said before. You are fighting. But I don't get the feeling you're fighting that hard. However, if there's one scum left I'd without question bet my left ball sack that it's MariaR and not you.
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Post Post #5262 (isolation #112) » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:20 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5210, midwaybear wrote:
In post 5206, Zaiden wrote:which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that.
I actually think Gypyx's scumread on clidd might have been too good to be true.
Of course, I don't want to scumread people for being too good, but I normally don't see people scumread for making six ok posts and then replacing out without relation to the game.
I guess I'm thinking the game state is already looking on the down for scum with one of their team eliminated D1. So pulling that kind of gambit would be pretty risky.
In post 5210, midwaybear wrote:Also, this might have been missed. But my read on Maria has shifted to lean-town because she has changed virtually nothing about her play. Her general trend for the beginning few days has been to push a couple of reads and make some :shifty: hammers. I think it was initially suspicious, but I think the repeated nature of it makes it somewhat townie.
That being said, some people were saying that Spring's interactions with Maria looked good for her. These people pulled up quotes where Spring had paranoia on Maria iirc. I think I actually thought that those interactions were scummy at the time because the paranoia could be TMI Maria scum. Definitely need to revisit that and expand my thoughts.
Also, agree with Jingle about apathy. I'm guilty of it too, but I'm also slightly more optimistic that we'll be able to figure things out (fingers crossed).
The interactions read too weirdly for me to drop it. MariaR tried to push me as a wagon as the Spring Breeze wagon D1 was gaining traction. Then vanishing saying they were busy, then literally leaping in bang on the clock as Spring Breeze is about to go down to try and mount a defence, then lol hammering when it looks hopeless. You say it's town indicative that we're seeing repeat shifty hammers. I'm speculating it's a scum ability relating to hammers given how every scum has flipped with an ability so far. And if things are great for her if she gets more hammers I think we need to address her ASAP rather than later.
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Post Post #5401 (isolation #113) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:04 am

Post by Zaiden »

Fucking hell. I know it doesn't look great for me but I can swear I was so sure MariaR was bad. Like, honestly. I think the issue which clouds nailing final scum for me is that so many of the scum deaths were derived from night abilities. So it's actually really hard to read between the lines when there's so little genuine interaction to read between, when everyone has essentially sheeped our power roles so it's like really difficult to read through justifications for votes and stuff. Also we know the night deaths of Pink Ball and Cheetory immediately came after they claimed power roles. Jingle also mentioned stuff about pie. I'm used to considering how town players read the game and how scum might have killed them for their reads. So we know it's definitely because of the power role, but not if it's because their reads were good. It could be both but I have no clue. Going back, both Morning Tweet and Pooky where middling the reads lists of SPF. So I'm pretty sure SPF wasn't killed for her reads, meaning I'm personally gonna put less weight on her reads list.

Plus MariaR's support of SB/MT followed by opportunistic hammers seemed way too convenient to ignore. So to me, I think it's reasonable anyone would believe she was scum. And for the final scum who sees us elimming a town they could very well have been a part of the wagon or stayed off it. I think if scum are generally town read it's more probable they'd try to sit back and coast through while not offering strong inputs on misejects. But it really could be the case final scum is poorly read and is hoping we overthink stuff and overlook them. I'm gonna have a look back at the past few days and see if there's anything to glean. I think for me, I'll have a look at the reads of people who were misejected and I'll be taking a look at Midwaybear vs Gypyx. My gut tells me there could be something to this interaction set - it's hard to trust my gut after D5 but I still reckon it would be a bold and improbable move for Gypyx to throw MT under the bus. And I'm starting to have misgivings about Midwaybear.

Can confirm you need about 3 peaches to bake a pie - though it doesn't say in the PMs what these pies do, so I'll take people's word for it that these pies can steal fruit/view inventories. I received Cresthaven, Empress, Rio Grande. @midwaybear, you talk about how peaches steal/view inventories seem useless. I was under the impression you also accumulated enough peaches to bake a pie. Whereas Jingle/Nora have been proactive about communicating the fact they can bake a pie and tried to make plays with pies helping town, how come you've sat back then decided to criticize the whole process at the stary of today and deride it as being pointless? Do you have any clearer idea on how we should go about things? I'm getting the impression you're telling us it's pointless to try and potentially throw us off a trail.

Also to everyone. Would mods include a pointless mechanic that have no purpose? My thoughts are that there could be something incriminating in inventories? But with how Spring Breeze flipped strongman and given how we've had no crucial doctor saves so far maybe we're getting memed and there's no doctor/no point to strongman in this game. So it could be that Midwaybear has a legitimate point. But like if strongman is possibly 'pointless', would mods add another 'pointless' mechanic?
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Post Post #5403 (isolation #114) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:40 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5402, Noraa wrote:
In post 5401, Zaiden wrote:Can confirm you need about 3 peaches to bake a pie - though it doesn't say in the PMs what these pies do, so I'll take people's word for it that these pies can steal fruit/view inventories. I received Cresthaven, Empress, Rio Grande.
dead townies have baked pies and like 3 currently alive people have as well. Is there any more confirmation that you need?

Also you're lying. I vended to you a while ago.
Are you dumb. I already said I received peaches from you and Cheetory yesterday. I'm talking about the new peaches I received, which looking back on a previous post suggests they came from Jingle/S_S/Gypyx.
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Post Post #5404 (isolation #115) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:25 am

Post by Zaiden »

Anyway, I have options to use however many peaches to bake pies. My stumbling block is knowing whether I should go with one big pie or two small pies. Thoughts?
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Post Post #5410 (isolation #116) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:56 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Ah fk, too late. I made a smaller pie because my team told me to :(
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Post Post #5411 (isolation #117) » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm

Post by Zaiden »

The logic was two pies = two times we can use abilities.
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Post Post #5419 (isolation #118) » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:46 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5413, Noraa wrote:I would dayvig you for saying that if I had a dayvig
I understand that you feel frustrated. Now that I've had more time to think about it, asking the mod to bake me the 3 peach pie before waiting to hear back from people was very rash to say the least. But it's too late to take back for now. I promise I will try to coordinate/use my ability in any way that can help. I'm down to coordinate if need be.

If there is some cop type property where we can see some dodgy fruit in other people's inventories - please confirm with me if anyone checked MT/Pooky and didn't see any weird fruit because that would debunk my current theory - then this could be what we need to close out the game?
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Post Post #5458 (isolation #119) » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:49 am

Post by Zaiden »

Five voted but the thread hasn't closed. Seems odd to me - loved/vote robbery? That said I would push for Gamma Emerald in POE over MurderSunny. I'm not going to be sending my peach over to Midwaybear. It's game losingly awful for two reasons off the top of my head. Scum either night lims MWB if he's town or MWB is scum taking us for a run. Nora, are you even town? Anyway, I believe there's a good possibility Midwaybear has hard infiltrated town. Maybe I'm being super paranoid about losing the game. But I don't think anyone else seems to be interested in this hypothetical scenario, so I think it's still worth discussing.
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Post Post #5460 (isolation #120) » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:54 am

Post by Zaiden »

Anyway, if people do want to stack peaches on someone for whatever reason, I would like it to be someone other than Midwaybear. I don't care. Any questions can be answered down the line.
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Post Post #5469 (isolation #121) » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:10 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Town Compulsive Fruit Vendor.

Yesterday was a gambit. Actually baked the five fruit pie. From the fact I didn't get wiped out, I think that indicates the 3 peach pie doesn't pose a credible threat to the remaining scum, meaning my theory about inventory peeking to spot out scum is most likely wrong.

I will reveal what it does when everyone else comes forward.
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Post Post #5470 (isolation #122) » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:13 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Also nobody talk about night actions if possible. It won't be possible to prove I did what I did with the five fruit pie if someone can say 'Well, you could have easily made that up'.
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Post Post #5471 (isolation #123) » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:14 pm

Post by Zaiden »

(Or I'm happy to come forwards with the information if the consensus is that I should come forwards with it ASAP)
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Post Post #5496 (isolation #124) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:46 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Hey, I've returned. Had an interview today I've been spending the past few days preparing for. So this is going to sound really dumb. I thought I had one shot tracker and asked to use my ability on Midwaybear thinking maybe I could see where he was going and figure stuff out from there. Well, I actually had a one shot watcher. Admittedly, I would have used it differently had I known. But no one visited Midwaybear. At least that's what I've been told by Unpod Tripod. That was my result. Which I find pretty odd because surely it should have shown me visiting Midwaybear for this result.

But like how does that work wouldn't scum have just funneled the kills through MWB if they were ninja to avoid tracker/watcher? And the counterpoint against MWB being bad is that he nailed MT by pointing out they claimed Dixie Red which was the same as Spring Breeze. Urghhhhhhhh. I just don't know. So maybe Gypyx and MWB are both town? But I think once Pink Ball revealed he spotted MT visiting SPF it would be easy to bus the partner at that point. Which is the reason I hold Gypyx in a higher light - since he was already calling out the Clidd spot before PB came forwards with the reveal. Whereas MWB buried a hatchet that was already probably going to be buried. Also protecting MariaR like that looked too convenient/too good. I think just about anyone would think the way she played was nothing but scummy and the logical progression to consider her being town is one that was lost on me by the time we reached the point of limming her. I guess I'm ridiculously paranoid of MWB deepwolfing. It's just so hard to shake that feeling and the watcher result is surely abnormal? Though it might just be that my ability doesn't count against itself. Someone please clarify.

As for Gamma Emerald, albeit it's their most recent game and I get the impression they would be appealing to emotion more as town? Team Mafia they've come across indifferent, tonally speaking and relatively under the radar in terms of contributions. Yes, Cakez pushed for miselims. But I think it's not alignment indicative. Plus contrasting with Gamma's relative indifference, Cakez seems involved with trying to solve and quite genuinely frustrated/emotive? Scum could sit back or commit to whatever wagon they want to at this point, right? And because of how our investigative roles solved a lot of these guilties leaving no room for doubt it's difficult to read through the subtext of whether a person is being opportunistic or not jumping onto previous wagons. Is there anyone who's clearly trying to go under the radar/look good? Because to me it feels like MWB has been more interested in looking good than pushing for a solve on this game - though I can concede on their point that the 3 peach ability did wind up being useless seeing how I'm alive even if that's more of a hindsight thing probably. And it makes sense scum doesn't get busted with such a low peach investment ability otherwise this setup would be awful.

S_S, as the original person who cased Cakez on D1 I believe, do you have any particular thoughts on Cakez? Do you think your points still hold weight or do you think the game state has progressed to a stage where your previous casing cannot be applied? I believe your interactions in the game earlier, and how you put it aside to push Spring Breeze reads as more town in retrospect. Since I would have imagined if either of you were scum, you would have pushed the wagon off your strongman onto each other/taken the bullet for Spring Breeze. Obviously I could be wrong, but that's how I'm currently reading it.

For me current POE is between MWB/Gamma Emerald - Cakez on/off pending on input from S_S.

@Cakez, sorry to hear you're having a rough week. It gets better though. Here's hoping and feel free to take your time.
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Post Post #5503 (isolation #125) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:55 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Well, I spoke with Unpod Tripod and well, I did have a tracker but they messed up and gave me watcher results 0_0

Dunno if Unpod Tripod will publicly verify something like this. But I'll leave that to them. I've put in the question to them whether I should see myself visiting MWB and am awaiting a response.

Abstaining sounds like a good idea to me. But I'm down for more discussion before we definitively end the day.
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Post Post #5504 (isolation #126) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:58 pm

Post by Zaiden »

Tbh, this tracker/watcher mess up is really dumb. We should literally have one confirmed town or one confirmed scum.

So for clarification 4 peach does equal 1 shot tracker not 1 shot watcher.
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Post Post #5505 (isolation #127) » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:59 pm

Post by Zaiden »

I mean 5 peach.
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Post Post #5510 (isolation #128) » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:48 am

Post by Zaiden »

Okay. Unpod Tripod got back to me. I'm not meant to see myself visiting MWB, which changes thing a bit.

I think he's pretty much confirmed 5 peach is changing from tracker (which it originally was phrased as) to watcher since he accidentally gave me watcher results instead. If Unpod Tripod won't publicly say anything about a mess up in the night, you'll have to take my word for it. But I can promise the way I was messaged, I had every reason to believe it was a tracker. And Unpod Tripod pretty much told me 'I f'd this up it was meant to be tracker'.
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Post Post #5593 (isolation #129) » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:12 am

Post by Zaiden »

I vend Hearken Peach.
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Post Post #5596 (isolation #130) » Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:27 am

Post by Zaiden »

I did not have duplicates. I don't think the people who sent me the first two peaches sent me any extra peaches? Off the top of my head Cheetory died and Nora vended to someone else the following night.
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Post Post #5620 (isolation #131) » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:25 am

Post by Zaiden »

I have received confirmation from Unpod Tripod that 5 peach pie is still a tracker and the one mess up with sending me watcher results was a one off mistake which is really good to know. Thoughts?
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Post Post #5625 (isolation #132) » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:38 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5623, Gypyx wrote:
In post 5510, Zaiden wrote:I think he's pretty much confirmed 5 peach is changing from tracker (which it originally was phrased as) to watcher since he accidentally gave me watcher results instead. If Unpod Tripod won't publicly say anything about a mess up in the night, you'll have to take my word for it. But I can promise the way I was messaged, I had every reason to believe it was a tracker. And Unpod Tripod pretty much told me 'I f'd this up it was meant to be tracker'.
why did you think that?
The way Unpod phrased it made me believe it was going to be switched to watcher. But when I asked again they clarified that it was still gonna be a tracker.
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Post Post #5626 (isolation #133) » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:39 am

Post by Zaiden »

Gypyx's plan sounds solid to me. I'm down to try it out.
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Post Post #5640 (isolation #134) » Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:32 pm

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5638, midwaybear wrote:
In post 5620, Zaiden wrote:I have received confirmation from Unpod Tripod that 5 peach pie is still a tracker and the one mess up with sending me watcher results was a one off mistake which is really good to know. Thoughts?
Wait... UT let you know that there is a 5 peach pie?
UT gave me the option for a 3, 4 and 5 peach pie to bake.
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Post Post #5645 (isolation #135) » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:47 am

Post by Zaiden »

I just wanted to check. Is that all the discussion people want? I'm down to just carry out Gypyx's proposed plan. I can't think of anything terrible outside of a mafia roleblocker eliminating one of Cakez/Gypyx while keeping the other one alive to be roleblocked. Or a mafia ninja rendering tracker obsolete. But I think openly discussing where the fruit goes will yield our best shot of forming a tracker and it's worth the risk. We'll be just as clueless on how to proceed without trying anyway. I also realised that the 4 peach pie could very well be Nora's peach stealer.

I'm taking no yeet as a presumed yes from Gamma/Cakez/Gypyx but want to hear from Gamma/Midway/S_S.
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Post Post #5646 (isolation #136) » Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:49 am

Post by Zaiden »

As in, hearing from them on what they think about Gypyx's plan. Because Cakez/Gypyx are involved enough that their support of the plan is understandable from the perspective where they're town. And because I might have overlooked a thing or two in going over this plan in my thoughts.
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Post Post #5654 (isolation #137) » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:50 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5647, midwaybear wrote:I think this only really works if Cakez and Gypyx are both town. I don't really think that is the case.
If one of them is scum I think it would be fairly self-evident and the plan would most likely expose them, no?
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Post Post #5655 (isolation #138) » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:51 am

Post by Zaiden »

Maybe my read on the plan and how it would expose scum is unlikely. But at the very least the POE becomes a lot more narrow even if one of them is scum, right?
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Post Post #5656 (isolation #139) » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:53 am

Post by Zaiden »

@MWB, if you can give me a good reason why the plan is bad if one of them is scum, I'll consider your viewpoint. If not, I'm potentially reading it as heckling/grasping at straws because maybe you're scum and you think you're getting cornered.
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Post Post #5675 (isolation #140) » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:21 am

Post by Zaiden »

Didn't even realise we were past the deadline.

Vote: No Yeet
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Post Post #5689 (isolation #141) » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:08 am

Post by Zaiden »

Btw I was under the impression 3 is inventory viewer and 4 is the stealer. I assumed they were separate abilities.

I was so certain that one of Cakez/Gypyx was going to die. I'm pretty glad MWB goes because I think many of us were uncertain and if he made it to endgame and I made it to endgame too I probably would have bet against him. Well it's a bit too late but I if I was on before any info was divulged I would have suggested not revealing who has 4/5 and making it a 50/50 tossup for scum to deal with. I suppose that plan would have to assume that the person carrying 4/5 peaches isn't scum because they could easily off the other one going into this night and claim to have had the 4/5 peaches.

Unfortunately I think this means Gypyx is pretty much a dead player walking. Hopefully my theory on 4 peaches = stealer is incorrect, because we ideally want an ability that has more useful utility than peach stealing.
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Post Post #5711 (isolation #142) » Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:38 pm

Post by Zaiden »

I don't think it necessarily clears Gamma's slot. From what I've heard, you can turn yourself to be not seen online. My team's a bit on the fence. Hopkirk believes Gamma is telling the truth. But Hectic's really cautious and reckons Gamma could totally pull off a huge gambit to try and win the game. I'm pretty undecided myself. I'm down to no eliminate for now, follow through with the plan and see where it takes us.

If Cakez is on 4 peaches, with GE and Gypyx both on 2/3 peaches, we would be looking at 2 likely guaranteed trackers for scum to pick between going into tomorrow.
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Post Post #5720 (isolation #143) » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:14 pm

Post by Zaiden »

For the record S_S, I am absolutely town. It is in my nature to be cautious. I can see the angle/opinion that scum would speak up against someone who'd seem reasonably town based off of siteflaking, because sowing doubt is precisely what scum want to do with so few people left. But why wouldn't scum try to do some wacky stuff towards the end, especially if they're the last one standing and in threat of an imminent eject? Objectively speaking that was the only play GammaEmerald could have made to save the game as scum. Saying I am outright scum for having my own perspective on the game is frankly ridiculous and makes me question people's agendas going forwards. Though seeing the shift in discussion around Gamma, I would be inclined to think they are probably town based on how people were so quick to defend them/attack me. Which reads to me like people thinking Gamma is town (a fact scum would know for sure), trying to win Gamma over into thinking they're a good guy. I'm not so sure about Cakez/S_S anymore. As far as I'm concerned, categorically viewing Gamma as town without reservation is a massive leap of faith careful players who care about town winning shouldn't make in this precarious game state.

Anyway, back to my plan. My plan of no elim and vending around peaches increases the guarantee of a tracker and thus our ability to close out the game. If we have enough peaches going around to form multiple trackers, that is the path we should embark down because scum can't kill them all in one go. Is there a chance the tracker ends up in the hands of scum? Quite possibly. But it would be pretty inexplicable to me for town to stay alive while holding tracker as far as I can tell. And it would be difficult for scum to justify how they made it to endgame with a tracker if they are one of the carriers. Thoughts?
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Post Post #5745 (isolation #144) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:18 am

Post by Zaiden »

I've caught up. And what in the actual fuck is going on. Fucking hell, I made a V/LA request to Tripod over Discord. Guess that didn't go through.

TLDR - I had three job interviews lined up and needed to take a step back from the game to focus on those. Because let's be real, I don't make any money or further my career prospects by posting on MafiaScum. I mean I got a job offer this morning to become a legal assistant so everything is fine.

People ask me for my thoughts, I've literally given them. I do not think Gamma is town for the reasons I've stated. Even if they did site flake, I don't know why being online on MafiaScum overnight is a surefire sign Gamma didn't commit a night kill. Earlier in the game UT reached out to me over Discord DMs earlier in the game to remind me I needed to submit an action and I just straight up told him who I wanted to vend my fruit to over Discord PMs. And that worked just fine for every night that I've played since about N2/N3. So I have reason to believe any of us could have submitted a night kill over Discord instead of through PMs on MafiaScum. Surely I can't be the only person who stumbled across the fact that you could PM fruit vends and night actions (one shot watcher in my case) through Discord PMs? I was kind of hoping someone else would point that out.

As for why Gamma specifically stands out as dodgy to me, Gamma being town who afk'd the night relies on a whole lot of mod errors and ridiculously weird decisions to not notice Gamma wasn't around given we all have roles where we have to submit something every night. The mods apparently didn't check whether he was around after despite the night period being fairly extensive (though from what I understand UT was going through some stuff). However this doesn't seem like a realistic error to make. And I reckon if Gamma did actually site flake for that long without say using private channels of communication like Discord, it's way more likely they would have been modkilled. Although Tripod did mess up my tracker into watcher and didn't put through my V/LA request so it's totally possible he fucked that up? No matter. Think about it. You're scum in Gamma's position. The game is absolutely lost. What else are you going to do other than try to figure out an ingenious way of pulling off a last ditch gambit? If you all truly believe and trust that scum in Gamma's position would just roll over and die that's hilariously naïve. If you all want we can all go AFK over the night phase to test out this theory on Discord fruit vends/night kills which should prove my point.

I am 100% town and I've done what I can to try and help us win the game. To be honest, I have absolutely no clue anymore. Things have just been going wrong ever since we managed to nail Pooky. Any one of you could be scum. But if I had to put money on it, it's one of Gamma/Cakez/Gypypx. Leaning Gamma for the reasons mentioned above. If it's not him, Cakez had the chance to just hammer me and seems to care more about not being seen as scum. To me it could very well be scum theatre where he's putting up a show of town stuck in a dilemma. If Gypyx is scum he's planning his next steps into endgame by saying 'I think X is scum if Zaiden isn't' which kind of makes me think he knows I'm not really scum. Plus MWB died in the night and not one of Cakez/Gypypx. He was the biggest proponent against vending fruit to Cakez/Gypyx under the belief one of them could be scum, and I think there's a chance he was killed to silence anyone trying to push the idea one of Cakez/Gypyx is scum. Or S_S is galaxy brain and playing us all but I somehow don't feel like that's the case here.
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Post Post #5748 (isolation #145) » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:39 am

Post by Zaiden »

In post 5746, SirCakez wrote:Zaiden - if Gamma was really flaked, that implies he wasn't even thinking about this game or who to submit a kill to. It's not just that he wasn't online.
Why do you keep restating that you're town?
I'm not hammering because we have two elims and I don't want to waste one, especially now that you're actually here.
I still think MWB died because he was soft-cleared by the Watcher result.
You've misunderstood. I'm essentially saying I believe that there's a highly probable scenario where GammaEmerald fake flaked and communicated with mods/submitted their actions through Discord.

I don't think that the watcher softclears MWB. It only gives info that nobody visited MWB which was hardly surprising considering some of us were scumreading MWB at the time. In what way does it soft clear him?

I now believe MWB was killed to paint me in a bad light since I was pushing them hardest yesterday making me an easy push for today. It's so fucking obvious, to me at least. I will continue striving to make sure that the last of scum is rooted out, and if I have to take them down with me so be it.

In my mind it seems like Cakez is at least taking things into consideration and holding a genuine line of inquiry. I wouldn't discount the fact he could be scum thriving in the chaos which is what looks to be a projected miseject onto me, but atm I honestly think GammaEmerald is likeliest scum for the reasons I've given. Which Hectic and Hopkirk agree with based off what what they've read and what I've told them about being able to do fruit vend/tracker through Discord PMs to Unpod Tripod. That if they gave actions through Discord like I have, and know that siteflaking on the actual site is a way to be seen as 'good' by not being tied to the kill, they'd just post his night action through Discord and appear offline on MafiaScum to give the impression they're not associated with the kill and therefore pull off a gambit which makes everyone think they're therefore town (when they're not). Followed by Gypyx, since they foisted a rather non-committal, opportunistic vote onto me.
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Post Post #5760 (isolation #146) » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:12 am

Post by Zaiden »

You're telling me that's a good indication that I'm scum?!? Like I know why he'd specifically choose to remind me on nights, and not bother with other people. An explanation I can think of is that I'm not a veteran player or familiar with the site interfance, which we've made clear to him in our Team Mafia discord channel, so he's been kind enough to help me out along the way. I've also just been really busy sorting out starting my new job soon, so to be honest, I've had other priorities beyond a mafiascum game that hasn't been very active.

Honestly for me at this point, scum has to be between Gypyx after the shade he's thrown to try and commit a miseject on me although my gut still feels that GammaEmerald is an entity who cannot be trusted. If one of these two make final three, I'm pretty sure the one that's alive is absolutely scum. Also I didn't quite catch it but Hopkirk pointed out to me Gypyx claimed that I was town in the one other game I played on this site. That is not true. I was actually scum in that game. I forfeited on D2 right after my scum buddy was ejected D1. Gypyx is just trying to lie to everybody by saying I was town in that game and what I've shown in this game does not reflect my town meta. But I was scum in that game so how does that work?!?!

I've said what I can to be honest. I feel emotionally drained, like I have no more energy left. Not just because of this game where I completely fucked up thinking MariaR was scum, which just weighed on me heavily. I'm just relieved to have a proper job lined up after searching for months after months. If Gypyx is scum, I'm absolutely sure he's sensed out my emotional tiredness and is looking to exploit me till the very end for his own gains. He's outright lied about me too to try and secure a miseject onto me. If Gamma is scum, he's satisfied with the game state and is happy for town to miseject. So those two are plausible. If I'm totally wrong, which wouldn't be a first since I got MariaR totally wrong, well fucking played to Cakez. And S_S is actually a scum god if it's them.

Vote: Gypyx
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Post Post #5798 (isolation #147) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:58 am

Post by Zaiden »

I'm here. I was pretty sure I was dead.

Should we try asking for an extension? @Unpod Tripod. I'm wary of extending a game where our activity level has begun to become quite sporadic. But the circumstances seem pretty extenuating to me.

I'm not saying S_S is scum. But Gypyx is trying to apply conventional logic in normal games in bad faith imo. As for scum vending fruit to the same person their partner kills, we all knew peaches had to be something useful in the game. So to me it makes sense scum could consider vending 1-2 extra fruits to a kill target so that's 1-2 less fruit for town to work with - especially on a D1 - and figure out after that vending fruit to a kill target isn't a good idea if they get seen or caught out. Is this really beyond the realm of possibility that S_S is conf town based off also fruiting SPF?

For me if S_S is town, it's not because of them vending the fruit to SPF too. At least for me, it's been the other reasons e.g. natural and consistent interactions with flipped scum/town players, their read progressions have seemed natural and less thirsty/opportunistic in general compared to all the other attempts to miseject me that have gone my way.
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Post Post #5800 (isolation #148) » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:09 am

Post by Zaiden »

Oh fuck, just saw Unpod Tripod extended the deadline. Excuse me, I'm feeling pretty tired.
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Post Post #5803 (isolation #149) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:59 am

Post by Zaiden »

Going into tonight, we can agree on someone who will execute the final vote for whatever people choose on the 17th. Probably Gamma since we've confirmed they weren't present on Mafiascum.net during the night the kill happened. And have everyone go offline on the 16th, then not comment for 1-2 days when the game restarts, so we can play with the idea that actions can be sent to Unpod Tripod through Discord DMs. And therefore being offline on this site for the whole night doesn't necessarily say much about conf town or not. Regardless of the outcome, even if I end up being voted off, I want this proven so that a scum!Gamma doesn't get away with being in the clear for something I truly perceive as not a conf town thing. If people forget about it and it does not get confirmed, it's game winning for scum in the event where Gamma is scum who pulled off a huge gambit.
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Post Post #5804 (isolation #150) » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:59 am

Post by Zaiden »

Or Isis. Or whichever mod is presiding over this game at present.
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Post Post #5809 (isolation #151) » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:43 am

Post by Zaiden »

Sorry, been a busy week for me sorting out paperwork/identity verification/background checks for my new workplace.

@Cakez, angle shooty, perhaps. But it's the best thing I can think of at the moment, especially with the game being pretty dead in the water right now. I think it's stupid but I can see why might suspect my motives. For me, it's standard paranoia. I have used Discord to vend peach and utilise watcher, and the fact no one's come out to say yes or no suggests to me I've somehow been the only one up till this point. Of course, that's unless Gamma's been quiet about using Discord thinking they could get away with a huge gambit. From my perspective, knowing Discord can be used to vend peaches/use night abilities, it's extremely alarming someone's gone for the play 'I wasn't on MafiaScum overnight therefore I am town' when I know it doesn't necessarily say much if they've been using Discord messages to carry out activities. My team knows I've used Discord to liaise with Tripod for night vends which is why they were alarmed at what they perceive to be a possible mega gambit from scum on their last legs.

With Gamma being unresponsive I'm not sure my no yeet guaranteed tracker plan even works on the assumption Gamma remains afk from the forum. But no yeet could still prove something.

Say we don't choose to vote someone off and we all elect to go offline on 16/04. Which would be today. That way, we can confirm there were no quickly sneaking in night actions on the deadline day 17/04 before going offline for the night phase. Then we can see if the Tripod messages over Discord work or not. What do people think? That's the point of view I'm choosing to take for now, so today will be my deadline for being online. Don't think I can tangibly change my vote/unvote through Tripod DMs but if the point is to prove that night actions such as peach sends/peach abilities can be done entirely off the site through Discord, then this is the way to go.

Any further discussion at present time? If we all vote no yeet I assume that would force the day to end so I guess we should avoid that and let the day run its natural course if we are to follow the plan I've laid out. We can still try to achieve the guaranteed tracker plan too if no yeet two days in a row and we spread fruit optimally between Cakez/Gamma/Gypyx. Of course this assumes none of you three are scum which I seriously doubt at this point in time. But if my gut on S_S being town is correct this likely keeps the night kill away from them.
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