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[Something_Smart]

i lowkey wanna policy the zoomer slot now but whatever honestly

As the kids these days are saying, this would not be pog.

Hi everyone.

[Something_Smart]

r u town

extremely. In fact my role PM is so green that when gypyx tried to hand it to me, the energy contained within was so great that it yeeted away from both of us at high velocity, and when I finally managed to read it it appeared red due to the doppler effect. It's funny how these things work out sometimes.

[Something_Smart]

have you been following the game

only since, like, yesterday. I saw this game's plist and was like "oh man I should try to replace into it" and then I saw there was a slot open and I was happy, and then it was taken and I was sad, and then another slot was open and I was happy again, and then I rolled town and continued to be happy.

[Something_Smart]

I appreciate you saying that you won't shitpush me again because you aren't scum followed by immediately shitpushing me

I will try to do some reading. I don't especially feel like reading everything, I feel like that's rarely actually been helpful to me. But I will at least do the last 10-15 pages or so.

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:

[Something_Smart]

Datisi what makes you think I was MIA

I had less time for mafia last night than I thought I would, and my time for this game was spent reading, not posting.

[Something_Smart]

I think Luca Brasi is town.

Don't have much of an opinion on Llama or Infinity yet. I thought Infinity said something I liked around when I replaced in?

[Something_Smart]

Stop townposting, I have too many TRs already

I think this is the post I liked, I must have seen it at the beginning of my catchup

[Something_Smart]

I just want to note that SS said this same comment about his scum partner last game

Ya because that's how my mind works lol

[Something_Smart]

Llama's 1592 looks pretty town.

[Something_Smart]

And that worked out to be post 1952 lol.

[Something_Smart]

Llama's 1592 looks pretty town.

Update: it looks a lot less town after realizing that Llama has been defending OWER for a zillion years.

[Something_Smart]

It feels like inflating/strengthening the read when you don't have enough to go on

This is... not really a scum characteristic?

[Something_Smart]

then this post is the fakest thing in the game sry

how so

[Something_Smart]

There are ways town does this which are usually more self aware

So you mean like "I know I'm exaggerating, and I don't care"? Very few people will admit to that.

[Something_Smart]

But I think that you are either correct, or are Scum.

What exactly do you think would be different if they're both town?

[Something_Smart]

This is kinda hypocritical but there are wording things in 1592 that make it feel fabricated too. "This bothers me. This really bothers me because of the implications of it all." It feels like inflating/strengthening the read when you don't have enough to go on

Wait okay I looked back at it and now I don't even agree that it is inflating the read

It really bothers him because it assumes OWER town when samantha has been pushing OWER scum for a while. That seems like pretty solid reasoning that doesn't need to be inflated to me?

[Something_Smart]

I think Llama would have reacted differently to Infinity’s constant probing and skepticism. Perhaps more engaging of the other’s viewpoint, or trying to dissuade them.

How would town-Llama's behavior be affected by the color of Infinity's role PM? It's not like he would know it...

[Something_Smart]

I don't agree because 1. It's a threat, not really to be taken at face value 2. Quickhammering is scummy enough that maybe sam assumes that only suck would do it, making ower town

Sure, but if Llama failed to acknowledge these, that just means he misinterpreted the post.

So I mean maybe he misinterpreted it on purpose to try to push through a samantha execution but it seems like it was pretty late in the day to expect a falsehood-driven wagon that currently has zero support to go through over five wagons with 2+ members.

[Something_Smart]

Like it’s hard for all of that to just be Town versus Town versus Town.

I mean it wouldn't have to be all town? Why couldn't it be samantha scum and the rest town?

[Something_Smart]

These are clearly all not bad players just bumbling around in the dark.

Maybe you're not appreciating how often good players bumble around in the dark.

[Something_Smart]

Sometimes scum do things because they think they would do that thing as town, or because they think that they would be townread for doing it.

[Something_Smart]

Possibly. But is that what you think is happening? You think Infinity, Llama, Samantha, and OW are all Town?

I think that they can all be town, and that approaching the conflicts from the assumption that there HAS to be at least one scum in there is unproductive at best and downright misleading at worst.

[Something_Smart]

You’ve mostly focused purely on the players attracting the most attention, and are concluding everyone is Town? So who is Scum then?

I have not concluded that? I said that Infinity did something I liked, and I called Llama town but then reversed it. So I don't really see where you think I've concluded they are both town.

[Something_Smart]

There’s two leading wagons and you’re basically saying they’re both Town, I don’t want to vote, I think the Scum are all outside of the two, but I don’t want to express who I SR.

I mean, I'll express who I scumread when I have a scumread I want to express. It's not as though my thoughts are invalid because I don't have any scumreads!

[Something_Smart]

I don't even think he was necessarily planning on making the wagon go through, but it made llama look like he was doing something.

What exactly do you think he wanted to look like he was doing? Because it sure didn't look practical, it's probably gonna make more enemies than friends, it's gonna annoy people looking to consolidate, and it also wouldn't really advance any scum agenda which he could advance by pushing a townie with a wagon.

[Something_Smart]

You shaded OW aggressively.

I... I did? Where?

[Something_Smart]

did you read the first 5-10 pages? I feel like a lot of information is always there

no I didn't, I generally am not able to extract much information from the early game, but I will do it if I get a chance.

[Something_Smart]

Why would you downgrade your TR of any slot for defending another player if you didn’t think the player they were defending was Scum.

I initially thought that Llama had stepped in to defend OWER after OWER had claimed VT. But after looking at Llama's ISO, I realized that he had been defending OWER for a long time, so if he was scum he pretty much had to call OWER's claim town, so it wasn't as towny.

[Something_Smart]

Being active, pushing someone, etc. Note that samantha was wagoner earlier in the game as well so support could've been there. But I think people look at pushes like that and read them as town a decent amount

I guess?

But pushing something based on a known falsehood that you might get called out on, when it's a few days till deadline and you might get accused of trying to split the vote, it doesn't really strike me as a situation that's ripe for getting some towncred.

[Something_Smart]

Can you please explain what your read of OW is, if you have one

I think he's mildly towny for the claim and subsequent last will-esque posting, but not a strong lean.

[Something_Smart]

So you basically have... no reads. Everybody is null.

I literally just replaced into this game; why does this shock you?

[Something_Smart]

Well, if they're both town then it's helpful

And I wasn't really objecting to the wagons, per se. I was objecting to your claim that there has to be scum between Llama/Infinity and that the important thing to do today is figure out which, because I think that that's going to lead you down a really bad path if they're both town.

[Something_Smart]

But yeah I am sorry if it's annoying. I definitely have a reputation of being the guy who will try to dismantle everyone's arguments without offering an alternative, because I know that if I did offer an alternative it would be garbage.

Though it is important to note the difference between agreeing with an argument and agreeing with its conclusion. I can believe that Infinity/Llama might be scum but still not agree with your points on them.

[Something_Smart]

Also you’re claiming ignorance but you somehow managed to figure out that Llama had been consistently defending OW.

I mean someone basically said that and I ISO'd him to confirm it

[Something_Smart]

s_s, which one of infinity and llama is scummier

please vote that person

I'm... probably not the best person to be making this decision, don't you think?

[Something_Smart]

I will vote any person in the game including myself to ensure a hammer occurs.

[Something_Smart]

Okay, the early game here is pretty informative.

Andres seems towny but I already knew that.
Mom/Llama probably not scum together which could become relevant?

[Something_Smart]

It seems very odd to suggest that scum-Llama who KNOWS samantha is town would have an even harder time seeing the town perspective behind her post. Wouldn't you think that if he's scum and she's town he would be able to tell why she said this apparently scum-indicative thing?

[Something_Smart]

...I guess I just accidentally argued that Llama/samantha is not S -> T? Which is a bit weird of a conclusion to confidently make, but maybe it's valid.

[Something_Smart]

At the moment, Llama I guess?

[Something_Smart]

I don't believe my reasoning for Llama/samantha not S -> T btw. I think Llama didn't understand what samantha was saying in any event.

[Something_Smart]

I already said that I'll vote whoever to ensure an execution, I'm not sure why I'm the one you're badgering

[Something_Smart]

How's it an empty promise, you can't know that until you see if I actually do it

And me voting now would be helping to make the decision between the two which I clearly think is better left to other people

[Something_Smart]

Like you don't care about my vote specifically. You want me to vote somewhere to actually try to rally people to consolidate, yes?

Well why not have someone who actually knows something about the game do it? Like you, why don't you rally people to vote a particular person?

[Something_Smart]

i'm gonna claim it is to hopefully bully you into doing it

I mean that won't accomplish anything, because I know it's not. If anything it will make me more likely to hold my vote so I can prove it isn't.

[Something_Smart]

Why is Infinity a wagon again? I would pretty much vote the entire game with very few exceptions instead of them based on current reads, and similarly would be willing to snap wagon just about anywhere else. Yeah we need to push something through today, but everyone seems way to comfortable with gamestate which just increases my thoughts that Infinity is something scum are fine with happening so they are town.

Andres what does this do to your view of the gamestate?

[Something_Smart]

aaaa does llama do that as scum

Probably not?

[Something_Smart]

I really hate S_S' stance of refusing to vote or even express any kind of preference for one wagon over another

Well good news I have a stance now, I vastly prefer the Rathe and Koto wagons over the Infinity and Llama ones.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Rathe

[Something_Smart]

why

Because them both not pushing the other is towny. Llama is townier for doing it first and Infinity was already towny from their "how do I townspew" thing.

[Something_Smart]

some of the scummiest slots in the game

objectively

speaking

You keep using that word...

[Something_Smart]

Not Rathe?

[Something_Smart]

That wasn't even random because it was static. Though, attempting to break the rules should probably be punished just as harshly?

[Something_Smart]

Yes.

[Something_Smart]

This is begging for a Mod Kill.

I mean on the one hand I would have been happy to see Koto die, but it's not like I would seriously expect my post to influence whether he got modkilled. That's a listmod decision. (And why would that be a modkillable offense, anyway?)

[Something_Smart]

We don't know whether it's a weak PR.

[Something_Smart]

Rathe (7) Infinity 324, llamafluff, Something_Smart, outworldER, Anya, Umlaut, samantha97
this + koto is the pool for the rest of the game

Why?

[Something_Smart]

I was neighborized by Andres

Why did you share this

[Something_Smart]

god awful Rathe lim

What was awful about it

[Something_Smart]

the shitwagon mostly

Why wouldn't scum stay off the wagon, especially if there's no danger of a scum being executed instead?

[Something_Smart]

who is scum, s_s?

I don't know

[Something_Smart]

Be careful with E-1 votes today please as some players can’t help themselves

Dude there were like 4 hours left in the day, give her a break.

[Something_Smart]

Srsly?

Yes seriously, though I guess I assumed you meant people's ACTIONS were awful rather than that the RESULT was awful. I can see why the result might have been really bad, but I don't really see what was objectionable about what people did.

[Something_Smart]

why are you assuming this?

I'm not? It is a possibility under which scum could easily be off-wagon.

[Something_Smart]

That’s irrelevant

It may not be the

only

thing that matters but it is certainly not irrelevant, don't be ridiculous.

[Something_Smart]

That’s why I was hard-pushing Outworld’s lim as at worst it would be VT

Believe it or not, these are things that go through scum's mind when they decide what to claim.

[Something_Smart]

s_s can you stop throwing out useless theoryposts and actually start working your own reads out

In due time.

[Something_Smart]

SS why did you question me sharing that I was neighborized?

Oh sorry forgot to answer that

If you kept it secret you could have possibly caught scum fakeclaiming that they visited you N1.

[Something_Smart]

Kinda want to sheep Infinity's read on S_S since I agree with the logic there but the thing is it also applies to him.

Also applies to whom? Infinity uses she/her btw

[Something_Smart]

That seems pretty unlikely

Sure but the upside to claiming it was also minimal.

[Something_Smart]

Sam, you don't have to agree with me, but all 3 scum can be on a wagon and probably are more often than random if it's a town elim

I disagree with this

[Something_Smart]

I think most of us can agree Samantha’s opinions have zero significance

Including, then, samantha's opinion on whether hammering Rathe was a reasonable town thing to do?

[Something_Smart]

that's not in the rules or I woulda replaced out before this even started

It's not a rule, but it is a fairly strong recommendation, and you're likely to get a bunch of people asking you to stop if you keep using it.

[Something_Smart]

I guess this is Townie given Infinity's wagon was competing with Llama's at that point?

yep

[Something_Smart]

replacing in while there's mere hours left in deadline

eh? wasn't there like 36 hours left when I replaced in?

[Something_Smart]

actually I think it was closer to 48

[Something_Smart]

Luca:

I think most of us can agree Samantha’s opinions have zero significance

Including, then, samantha's opinion on whether hammering Rathe was a reasonable town thing to do?

[Something_Smart]

Do you think there's a chance that she as town would not have been so clueless?

[Something_Smart]

I think there's a chance she could be town or scum as I said.

Not exactly what I asked.

If samantha were town in that spot, do you think she would always hammer like that? Or do you think she might possibly be smarter?

[Something_Smart]

I think townies in general would at least consider the claim before hammering, especially an experienced player

I mean if she's town she clearly did consider the claim; in fact it was the primary reason for the hammer, no?

[Something_Smart]

You think she could have genuinely considered it in that time?

Sure?

If Rathe had claimed bulletproof 69-shot multitasking cop disloyal vigilante universal backup, it would not have taken very long for any of us to consider the claim and come to a conclusion. If samantha had a mental model of enabler = scum (and she would have had more than one minute to think about this, because Rathe claimed enabler and did not clarify for several minutes), she could have come to a conclusion pretty rapidly.

[Something_Smart]

Samantha, how did you know people would unvote?

[Something_Smart]

If enabler was truly a scum claim then there would be no need to quickhammer, as he would be getting limmed regardless once she pointed that out

I was just coming to this same conclusion, and I think it makes samantha scum.

[Something_Smart]

But it instills unjustified doubt, which you are immune to? For what reason are you immune to it?

[Something_Smart]

Well, you thought that enabler was very likely a scum role, but that other people would doubt it and be wrong in doing so. Does that not mean you thought their doubt would be unjustified?

[Something_Smart]

I just thought it was more likely than not

But other people would not think this, and might unvote instead.

Why did you think you were right and they were not?

[Something_Smart]

Is that at me?

[Something_Smart]

What I'm looking for is: what led you to believe that your opinion about the claim was more likely to be accurate than, for example, Infinity's?

I don't believe you've answered this.

[Something_Smart]

Infinity's opinion. Or mine. Or anyone else on the wagon.

[Something_Smart]

can literally *anyone* please acknowledge this post and tell me their opinion on it

Town can say stupid things almost as easily as scum can.

[Something_Smart]

okay, next order of business: opinion on the infinity wagon and what i've been arguing the whole morning?

I don't like it. Why does scum Infinity switch off of Llama yesterday?

[Something_Smart]

why does it look like this game as a whole is trying to protect infinity as much as it can

because she is towny?

[Something_Smart]

why have you not responded to my earlier post about possible motivation of scum!infinity eod1 and request for your own reads, but you're here within two minutes to jump in and defend infinity?

because I am a scatterbrain and had 17 million things to do today and I forgot about it

[Something_Smart]

you figured out your reads yet, s_s?

the answer to this one is uh sorta?

Koto was my other preferred exe yesterday, that hasn't changed. I think I'm okay with Anya dying. Samantha is ???????? but like I sure wouldn't shed any tears if she died and flipped town.

I think I'm okay with Datisi and Luca for now? I expect that someone smarter than me will figure out if something's wrong there.

I still townread both Infinity and Llama from yesterday. I still think OWER's claim is mildly +town.

Ico I have no idea but I'll trust your read whatever that is (idr off the top of my head)

[Something_Smart]

my earlier post about possible motivation of scum!infinity eod1

Can you link this, I'm having trouble finding it

[Something_Smart]

oic. I guess I can go back and look but I feel like it's inaccurate to say that the Llama wagon wouldn't go anywhere when there were multiple people pushing the narrative that we needed to consolidate on one of Infinity/Llama.

[Something_Smart]

is there any other reason why infinity is towny to you than the didn't push llama

Well it's not just that she didn't push Llama, it's that she did, and then backed off at a moment that doesn't make any sense to do so, and then led on Rathe (from my reread it really doesn't look like many people had voiced support for that before she did it.)

Also there's the whole townspewing bit.

(also random note while reading I saw samantha's 2001 which I think is towny)

[Something_Smart]

this just tells me you haven't been reading this game since… somewhere Eod 1

I mean yeah

[Something_Smart]

townreads : datisi/luca/infinity/llama/ico? and you don't see a problem here?

I mean there are lots of problems, it's not like I know how to fix them

[Something_Smart]

am I being dumb by townreading OWER for a VT claim with no daytalk?

[Something_Smart]

s_s, what about the "townspewing" was townie? i remember reading it and being wholy unimpressed

Just the fact that she thought it might work at all. She doesn't really strike me as the type to attempt something like that as scum?

[Something_Smart]

Why would you TR this anyway?

Because scum would want to make a claim that would have a chance of saving them from dying?

[Something_Smart]

And why would you assume there's no day talk

Encryptor seems pretty unlikely without a particular setup interaction since if the mod wanted the setup to have daytalk they could have just given it daytalk.

[Something_Smart]

It's funny how SS disappeared after making that comment

I was playing risk of rain 2 lol

[Something_Smart]

SS, vote infinity please

I guess, but I don't have to like it.

VOTE: Infinity

[Something_Smart]

are you not worried about your townreads going at it?

nah, it happens all the time

[Something_Smart]

why you voting infinity if you think she's town / you don't like it?

Because definitely what this town needs right now is more unity and more compromise rather than people continuing to be stubborn and following their own way.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Anya

[Something_Smart]

I don't see why Llama has to claim?

I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he won't bungle it so badly as to make it a good idea to kill him first.

[Something_Smart]

i could've just waited and claimed traffic analyst yesterday as wolf and you all would've let me live

mm

this is true

[Something_Smart]

s_s, as the mech guy, what is your advice here

well for one if there is an ungated loyal mailman, then there is not also an ungated traffic analyst. so if anyone here is exactly the role Town Loyal Mailman, definitely come out.

I would say anything 2-shot or higher is also not going to coexist with TA; that's just too many clears.

[Something_Smart]

i could've just waited and claimed traffic analyst yesterday as wolf and you all would've let me live

mm

this is true

the problem is that if you waited then Infinity claims doctor and we also let her live

[Something_Smart]

scum rolecops do not exist, this is a true fact

[Something_Smart]

take your time.

[Something_Smart]

how did i do

Not bad. You could maybe also throw in something about how I have a recent meta of bussing with weak reasons, and I generally have a reputation as town for giving PR claims the benefit of the doubt and waiting until I get more information, and how I didn't really express suspicion of Anya before so I could just be trying to get in before the bandwagon for towncred.

[Something_Smart]

I've changed my mind about Llama claiming. He should do so at the next available opportunity.

[Something_Smart]

do you wanna talk about your anya vote?

yes, I'm mad that she hammered my townread without a claim

[Something_Smart]

is there anything more going on in your head other than that

well I was all ready to blitz through an execution on Anya regardless of what she said or did coming into the day. and what she said today is pretty much exactly what she ought to be doing here as scum-- basically to a T.

the problem is, I can see the town motivation. It's dumb, but it's not like, out of the question dumb. And there is the counterargument that it was pretty dumb as scum too, which it probably was? except of course if scum knew that Infinity was a PR, and they didn't want her to claim.

and I mean there's definitely some hedging going on, I would much rather lose in the world where Anya is town than in the one where she isn't. Is that irrational? I guess? but it's freaking annoying to reward people for doing dumb shit.

Was it really that bad though? I guess maybe it wasn't; surely, people would have looked pretty sideways at a doctor claim after we already had a rolestopper flip; in fact, I think I would have gotten more suspicious of Infinity if she had claimed that. And scum very likely have a strongman or some method of bypassing the doctor, whereas Anya if town has undoubtedly the strongest role in the setup...

so actually, if Anya is town here, and we trust her, we're not in that bad of a spot, unless Koto's the mailman. so it's definitely not the right play to throw up our arms and say "it's unwinnable if she's town" which would normally be my MO here.

tl;dr there is a LOT going through my head but you can probably imagine why I wasn't especially keen to share it

[Something_Smart]

But on the other hand, we can [REDACTED].

Ask me about this one after Llama claims.

[Something_Smart]

Datisi if you just baited scum with a meme tinfoil theory I will be seriously impressed

[Something_Smart]

You and the mailman are conftown (if Anya is town). So it would be nice for that to be two people rather than one.

[Something_Smart]

why would i target bunny?

think about this for two seconds please

[Something_Smart]

Im not even going to acknowledge if the claim on me is right or not.

why the hecc not

[Something_Smart]

If its true, I am saying Anya is scum. If it is false, I am saying Anya is scum.

but in one of these cases, you can be wrong, and in the other, you can't.

also, it may be illuminating to see how anya responds to it.

also also, if you do in fact have access to a PT then it's a lot more likely that anya is a traffic analyst which makes it more likely that she is town.

[Something_Smart]

my checks went fine though

how do you figure

[Something_Smart]

It would matter, because the mailman is probably town...

[Something_Smart]

the cards she has shown proves she is lying just due to pure logic

No they don't.

[Something_Smart]

so far we have umlaut and llama refusing to claim

I wonder if that's scared mafia

refusing to claim is ++town

[Something_Smart]

wait yeah hold on, I have to check Anya's ISO to see if it even makes sense with an inno on Koto.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: OutWorldER

I believe

[Something_Smart]

I mean maybe?

It's clearly futile to actually try to get the people in this game to play optimally, though, so I'm not sure it's really worth it.

[Something_Smart]

s_s do you have any updates to your ~general reads~ or something

yes, I have no idea what the hell is going on and I'm going to stop pretending I do

[Something_Smart]

and also umlaut is scüm

[Something_Smart]

I mean the case is just 3158 and 3229

[Something_Smart]

i understand your feeling on the first one but i'm gonna need an elaboration on the second one

why would you vote one half of a 1v1 because the other half is refusing to do something you want?

especially since it's not really a 1v1, and the question llama is refusing to answer is extremely pertinent to this (and llama is actively hindering our ability to understand the gamestate by not answering it), but umlaut is nevertheless treating it like it is, and somehow not trying to punish llama for preventing us from understanding what's going on.

[Something_Smart]

It should be pretty clear (sans modifiers which I really dont want to get into) what I am at this point.

It is not, at least not to me. So why not say it?

[Something_Smart]

Town TA would be worthless

????

??

?

Town TA is a cop with false positives, you realize this right? The scum PT counts as private communication.

[Something_Smart]

What town role would result in a TA positive and fits in with dead players?

If you're scum, I'm not going to help you come up with a good claim. Sorry. If you want us to know, then say it. If you don't say it, then don't act like you want us to know.

[Something_Smart]

zzz i have an urge to lolhammer

Don't give in to the dark side D:

[Something_Smart]

how is that giving in to the dark side if she flipped red

Because we still have a big huge unresolved thing with llama?

[Something_Smart]

I mean I don't think it's extremely likely that Anya flips red. And hearing llama's claim will help us judge it a lot.

[Something_Smart]

how does that match this statement?

I mean, it may be that her fear was unfounded. If Infinity had claimed doctor and Anya had claimed TA, I sure as hell would have wanted to leave them both alive (I don't know about anyone else), but she could still have been afraid of getting killed.

It is a bit weird though, you aren't wrong.

[Something_Smart]

there is a high ++chance of there being (loyal?) mailman, which is stronger than TA? No?

Well if there's an ungated loyal mailman then they need to claim so we can murderize Anya with extreme prejudice. But until that happens I'll assume there isn't.

[Something_Smart]

why aren't you just openly pushing mass claim?

Because I hate massclaim and I think people who aren't under pressure should be able to decide for themselves when they claim.

I've very rarely seen late massclaim be abused.

[Something_Smart]

forcing a claim out of *anyone* right now is likely equaling mass claim

Not out of the guy who is falsely acting as though his claim is already obvious to everyone.

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah also massclaim outs an IC who's currently hidden so there's that

[Something_Smart]

why would I answer that question right now

[Something_Smart]

get llama to post his goddamn claim

like, he has already admitted he thinks we should know it, so I literally don't understand why he is continuing to be cryptic

I guess I should VOTE: llama then

[Something_Smart]

Surely it does, because it also varies a lot as town depending on how I feel about the game.

[Something_Smart]

It definitely might change mine.

[Something_Smart]

hi remember how I said traffic analyst and loyal mailman couldn't exist in the same setup

that was funny wasn't it