First and foremost, this thread is for discussion of the idea and mechanics. Once sufficient discussion has taken place, I will create a wiki page detailing the completed setup (EDIT: wiki page has been created). At that time, this thread will hopefully become something like the Grand Idea thread, where you can suggest booster sets to add to the wiki. Only packs that receive enough interest will be added.
Open Draft Mafia
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Open Draft Mafia
Recently, Gypyx (with help from Jingle and Datisi) put together a very cool game centered around drafting roles from randomly generated packs. A lot of people, including myself, really liked the mechanic and so I’ve taken it upon myself to try to turn it into an open setup similar to Great Idea Mafia so that it can be run again and again. I’ve also made changes to the overall design that I hope will take a really cool one-off and transform it into something that would be fun to run semi-regularly.
First and foremost, this thread is for discussion of the idea and mechanics. Once sufficient discussion has taken place, I will create a wiki page detailing the completed setup (EDIT: wiki page has been created). At that time, this thread will hopefully become something like the Grand Idea thread, where you can suggest booster sets to add to the wiki. Only packs that receive enough interest will be added.
Spoiler: Base Pack
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The base pack is designed to be a fairly "normal" setup. Things like voting interactions, redirection, pack investigation, etc, should (and will!) be included in packs. As Jingle pointed out in the review thread, there are some interactions that need to be clarified. These will be specified eventually on the wiki page, assuming anyone is interested in this. I'll make role PMs as well.- MURDERCAT
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A ideas for a flashier name than "Open Draft Mafia" will also be appreciated- MURDERCAT
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They can pick it and it will have no effect. Town who picks mason will be added to a mason thread.- MURDERCAT
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Thanks! Definitely curious to get feedback about overall balance. That is a safe assumption, most of the roles are normal and the ones that aren't should be straightfoward enough (but of course feel free to ask questions, stuff like mason and neighbor are obviously unique here).
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Spoiler: draughts pack
Coming up with roles that do stuff that are not super useful is hard lol.- MURDERCAT
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It's bulletproof that works once. I think it's normally just called 1-shot bulletproof, but I wanted to be explicit that it isn't activated.- MURDERCAT
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Thanks! The benefit of having the setup run once is worth a lot! And happy to have suggests for places to increase shots, this is definitely a jumping off point and I have no clue if it is balanced or anything.- MURDERCAT
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If it's not confusing, I'm perfectly happy to just call it 1-shot bulletproof- MURDERCAT
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Done!In post 20, Ircher wrote:Yeah, I think reflexive bulletproof is more confusing. Bulletproof is after all a normal role, and without the activated modifier, it's considered a passive in normal games.
Draft Idea is definitely an option, I personally find it difficult to keep all of them straight, but if people think it's better than Draft Mafia I'm fine with it- MURDERCAT
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I am certainly willing to accept that conclusion. I do think that scum:
1. Gets a lot of insight into the strength of many town player's roles do to the passing mechanics
2. Has a lot of interesting fake claim strategies
3. Gets to "burn" a lot of useful roles
but I am certainly more worried about it being town-sided than scum-sided.- MURDERCAT
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New tagline for greatest idea players: If you like picking stuff, what if I told you there was a setup where you get to pick stuff 5 times?- MURDERCAT
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Also, in terms of balance, I think it's worth pointing out that diffusion of power seems to be scum sided.- MURDERCAT
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Will look through your other post in a bit but definitely go for it, seems like there is interestIn post 33, Jingle wrote:Do you want suggestions for alternative packs here MC, or are we waiting to see if the vanilla version garners enough interest first?- MURDERCAT
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Replaced with 1-shot Detective and 1-shot Psychologist for now.In post 32, Jingle wrote: Watcher is disproportionately powerful for town on late days. Scum virtually has to pick those roles early and town never will, which I think is a flaw. Thus I think N4 and 5 watcher should be nixed.
Neighborhood is created on game start and players are added when it is chosen from a pack (that was the idea at least). I think there is no mod announcement when a player is added to the hood, they can post or not if they choose (seems more fun). Happy to drop the number down if there's good replacements, will come back to this.In post 32, Jingle wrote: Neighbor needs to be clarified as to whether it adds you to an established neighborhood and whether all of the neighborhoods are linked. It also needs to be clarified whether the people in said hood are noted at the beginning of the hood or not. Normally I think that's a QOL choice that should be a yes, but specifically for this setup there is a scum utility in secretly being part of the neighbor thread. I don't think 5 Neighbors is a particularly good use of slots either. I think 3 Neighbors who all are added to a Neighborhood that exists from the beginning of the game is fine.
In post 32, Jingle wrote: IIRC, the original setup had the nightkill as multitasking by default, is that unchanged?@Gypyxcan you confirm, after a brief look I couldn't find it. But yes, that is the case here, factional nightkill can be performed alongside pack actions.
Time for scum to play around it, also it forces trade offs in decision making. If there is N1 cop you always take it, but do you take N3 cop on N1? You make sure scum doesn't burn it but you also might die before you use it and maybe that N1 tracker has utility now? Agreed about N5 Cop and gsmith, changed to novice and delayed.In post 32, Jingle wrote: N3/4/5 Cop is an odd choice thematically, but I assume it's to allow the Godfather time to be chosen. I think I would suggest making the 5 a novice instead (can't be used the night after it's chosen) because a N5 cop is probably going to be pretty easy to play around. Same with the N5 Gsmith, although I don't think I'd double up on what it's turned into. Amnesiac or Delayed seem like decent options.
Oh good one. Docs are now even and odd night, plus I added a couple of 2-shot docs to replace 2 of the neighbors. I think doctor makes you a gsmith godfather, unless you are a vig as that seems like the most fun. But if that's awful we could not do that.In post 32, Jingle wrote: Doctor probably doesn't need to be gated so harshly, and it should be made explicit whether it turns you into a Gsmith godfather and how long that lasts. Also, if someone drafts vig and doctor and is checked by a Gsmith, does that return a guilty?
Yeah, I have added in random gates that I think are interesting or funny, including Self Checker, which I think isIn post 32, Jingle wrote: MD/FV/Checker/RC/RB all have potential to mix in alternative gates. Odd night FV or Complex Checker or Announcing MD.reallyfunny.
I put both in /shrugIn post 32, Jingle wrote: Ascetic can probably be buffed to Commuter.
Is there a name for this? Gunna call it universal framer if not.In post 32, Jingle wrote: Framer can probably be buffed to affect all investigations. (An investigative targeting your target receives the most damning result: I.E. can kill for gunsmiths or visited scumkill for trackers.)
Used to replace the watchers.In post 32, Jingle wrote: I would like to see detective and psychiatrist added in some form, possibly as simply as 1 shot versions.
I was thinking that, but wondered if it was better in a booster. But now that 2 of the neighbors have been removed, I will add it in. I'm guessing you are imagining this creating a different hood from the other one?In post 32, Jingle wrote: Neighborizer could replace neighbor or vanilla slots as it's a 0 utility role that is net fun for a lot of people and will naturally gravitate to those people who enjoy hoods.- MURDERCAT
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:O
I considered putting it there but grand idea isn't so I put it here too- MURDERCAT
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You are welcome to move it if you have the power!
I did say something similar in the cop is a terrible role thread a while back, but here I think the cop shots have enough counterplay to be interesting (personally).- MURDERCAT
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If you, Isis and Gypyx all think it looks playable, that's good enough for me! Getting started on a wiki page tomorrow! Also I rerolled the example base setup if anyone wants to reexamine for balance.
In the meantime, pack discussion?
Spoiler: Scum Power Booster
Spoiler: Ice Cream Booster
Spoiler: Friendly Neighborhood Booster Pack
Spoiler: Pack Shenanigans BoosterLast edited by MURDERCAT on Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.- MURDERCAT
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Modifiers could probably be more interesting, but just getting some ideas out there- MURDERCAT
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Draft roleblocker is great, added
Ice Cream Booster is my favorite theme though lol- MURDERCAT
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More to do later, but a start: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Draft_Mafia- MURDERCAT
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Also I'm going to run this over the memorial day weekend marathon, so wish me luck- MURDERCAT
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Yeah I think it will work fine 7:2 if I have to. Ircher did it for a Grandest Idea game though, so it's at least possible- MURDERCAT
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Yeah I will probably code something to do it, tbh- MURDERCAT
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Besides cop, what would you change? Also do you dislike it from a mechanical standpoint or a balance standpoint?- MURDERCAT
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What if I told you that the odds that scum has godfather in their first pack is ~14% and the odds that they have godfather or framer in their first pack is about 27%? And that doesn't account for them being in packs that are passed to them (which is controlled obviously.) It's a pretty real thing you have to play around I think, though you could definitely make an argument that towns wouldn't because they see 1/104 instead of 65/104. I could turn the godfather into 1-shot lawyer and then I would feel comfortable having 2 framers and 2 lawyers. The goal of the godfather is not really to allow scum to screw with all the results but to force town to acknowledge the investigations are not 100% and play around them, so if there needs to be more roles for that to be the case I'm down with it. If there's 2 framers and 2 lawyers, the odds that scum gets one in one of their first packs is 46%(!). I kinda like that idea anyway because godfather is low skill compared to lawyer and we are making town be skilled to use their PRs for the most part.- MURDERCAT
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Don't check my math, I was a bit lazy and treated the events as independent when they aren't really (if you get a framer in a scum pack there are then fewer spots for lawyers) but they are close enough to illustrate the point.- MURDERCAT
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Ok I thought about this some more and I decided the best thing is actually just to cut cops altogether as a lot of people don't like them in any situation anyway. If someone wants cops (with godfathers and framers or without) then they can just make a cop pack. I think this is a good change, so thanks
I also cut ninjas, because I agree there are places where that can ruin an endgame. Scum has been given more power in the form of role blockers and strongman shots, and town got another detective and psychologist.
But what about the gunsmith doctor interaction? I think there's enough doc shots where town is forced to play around this and it means there are interesting implications for anyone who has picked up a doc shot. But it is a false innocent, so I'm curious what you think.- MURDERCAT
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If you pick a 1-shot doc and use the shot, are you still a 1-shot doc? Or have you "played the role" and no longer have it? This matters for things like gunsmith and rolecop. I'm basically looking for whatever is more natural here (which I am assuming is a permanent role change regardless of shots available) but if anyone disagrees I'm interested to hear.- MURDERCAT
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Confusing interactions have hopefully been clarified on the wiki, but if anyone thinks of any more let me know.- MURDERCAT
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Yeah this is what I was thinking about. I think it makes sense to frame it as picking role modifiers rather than putting roles into your "hand." That's more consistent with passive roles too. But I'm glad I asked, curious what others think- MURDERCAT
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It really depends on whether you think of it as a role modifier or as a JOAT shot. This is from the doctor wiki:
In Mafia hands, the Doctor role has an additional, unrelated effect: a Mafia Doctor kills without the use of a gun, and thus a Gunsmith will not see a gun when investigating a Mafia Doctor. (This effect does not occur if a Mafia member gains access to a Doctor action via some other means, e.g. a Jack of All Trades role.)- MURDERCAT
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Ok I think that leads to the least confusing outcomes as long as you accept that initial premise, so let's stick with that.- MURDERCAT
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Hopefully the mech is actually as fun in practice as the closed setup- MURDERCAT
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Hopefully this goes well: viewtopic.php?p=12848129#p12848129 - MURDERCAT
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