Do gendered role names make sense?

[TemporalLich]

I am mostly talking about King and Prince here, though Mailman, Strongman, and Godfather technically count as well.

Prince was my hasty term replacement for L-wordproof (which was taken from One Night Ultimate Werewolf), and I don't feel it's a good role name.

King is a very established role in the Kingmaker variant.



Gender does not matter (and should not matter - otherwise the mod is both sexist and a bad mod) in rands, does it follow that it should not matter in role cards or is the player/character barrier strong enough for this to be a non-issue?

For King the gender-neutral term is Monarch. For Prince the gender-neutral term is Heir. For Mailman we have Courier. Strongman and Godfather don't really have good gender-neutral name equivalents however.

[TemporalLich]

I've seen "Strongarm" used as a substitute for "Strongman."

Strongarm to me means to use physical force for coercion.

These are good suggestions, godfather probably has to stay as is

yeah Godfather is kinda a movie name.

I think Mafia Boss (Don actually would not work for this purpose believe it or not) could work if Godfather tends to be seen as misgendering however.

[TemporalLich]

We could use Eliminateproof for the former L-wordproof if you want something ending in -proof instead of a elimination term agnostic name

Godfather is the one that does have a literal gender-neutral version (Godparent) but it will ruin the movie reference and honestly Mafia Boss makes more sense (or if it doesn't need to be seen as the big leader of it all, Caporegime). I would not consider Godfather absolutely locked into the current name especially considering Godfather was deNormalized.

And yeah it kinda feels patriarchal but I'm more considering removing gendered role names to avoid the likelihood of people feeling misgendered by their Role PM.

[TemporalLich]

Hammerproof would not be perfectly ideal as that implies hammer votes straight up don't count, but Elimproof feels abbreviated

[TemporalLich]

all I know is that I really do want to want to revisit the L-word term replacements but that's a topic for another thread.

Eliminationproof is the "proper" term replacement of L-wordproof but I'm not sure how many elimination terms are Normal and it would result in potentially having roles named Exileproof, Yeetproof, Fadeproof, Executionproof, and Blastproof in Themes at least

[TemporalLich]

Messenger sounds more Normal than Courier so I prefer it

[TemporalLich]

For Strongman I feel a good solution is to modifierize it into Strong (basically Strong-Willed but not interfering with redirections - for all purposes in a Normal game Strong and Strong-Willed are the same modifier), though you'd have a Strong Goon for the 1:1 replacement (as you're modifying the factional kill).

[TemporalLich]

Honestly, do we need to distinguish between Strongman and strong-willed? I find it very confusing that we have two terms for two very similar but slightly different roles/modifier.

Strongman is a role and Strong-Willed is a modifier but I can see Strong-Willed prevaling as Strongman is in the same boat as SD-Bomber, both might need term replacement but both can be expressed with modifiers. Though Strong-Willed Goon is kinda a Themey use of modifiers to modify the factional kill.

We do need a 1:1 term replacement as I highly doubt the NRG is going to let us modify the factional kill in Normal games, so Strong-Willed Goon might not be Normal anyways.

[TemporalLich]

Isn't Ninja normal? How is it not modifying the factional kill?

Yes... and it does modify the factional kill but that's an intended feature rather than using a loophole to modify the factional kill in ways that the NRG doesn't expect.

Strong willed actually has a functional difference as well, and is weaker as a modifier.

As a 1:1 you could just take the vig strongman term of Juggernaut.

I know Strong-Willed as a

stronger

version of Strongman - unlike Strongman, Strong-Willed prevents redirects as well.

and yeah Juggernaut is a perfect term for Strongman - in fact it's already an alias of that role.

[TemporalLich]

ah well I still see Strong-Willed as explicitly shredding all forms of blocking, redirections, protection, and immunities that apply to the action (Ascetic is an immunity for non-kill actions and Rolestopper is a protective for all actions). Basically nothing short of a Commuter can interfere with the Strong-Willed action's resolution.

but "argue about the minutiae of Strong-Willed" isn't the thread topic, asking whether gendered role names make sense is.

However, the minutiae of Strong-Willed does matter if we are considering Normalizing it, if Strong-Willed doesn't pierce protections and immunities than it can't be used to modifierize Strongman.

[TemporalLich]

Beloved princess, btw, could easily be shortened to just beloved as a modifier.

oh yeah I forgot that role exists

but yeah that easily works, Beloved Townie makes perfect sense.

[TemporalLich]

I feel like most of the gendered mafia terms are either rare or poorly named enough that the answer to “Should we change them” can be answered with yes.

Any specific instances of "no" or "I don't know"?

I would think Kingmaker (as in both the role and the scenario) might be the hardest to properly term replace as it's both common and not common.

A list of gendered role names in the wiki:

Beloved Princess
Dreaming God (may or may not be gendered)
Godfather
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered)
Huntsman
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
King
Kingmaker
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine)
(Normal role) Mailman
Phantom Queen
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered)
Prince
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
(Normal role) Strongman
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch)


Monk may also be considered may or may not be gendered

[TemporalLich]

Fireman -> Firecombatant

Fireman is gendered but the role in the wiki is the gender-neutral Firefighter.

[TemporalLich]

I'm just asking this question because I noticed the prevalence of gendered role names and can see why it could be an issue. I didn't see anyone comment personally before this, I wanted to ask the question to see if it is an issue.

Beloved Princess
Dreaming God (may or may not be gendered)
Godfather
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered)
Huntsman
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
King
Kingmaker
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine)
(Normal role) Mailman
Phantom Queen
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered)
Prince
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
(Normal role) Strongman
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch)


Monk may also be considered may or may not be gendered

quoting the list here just in case

[TemporalLich]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86386

if you want to discuss term replacing Prince specifically here is the thread - but basically Prince is being considered for term replacement for flavor reasons as well as being gendered

[TemporalLich]

I think Macho could be changed to Self-Reliant (as in you don't need anyone to help you)

[TemporalLich]

Uncooperative or Unaccommodating could be used if it's desired that the term maintain a negative connotation.

yeah that sounds better, macho is negative utility, but macho doesn't seem to be negative sounding to me

[TemporalLich]

If we're looking for anti miller I think we can do better than boss.

Trustworthy, or if it must be after the alignment, Leader.