Micro 1005: Help Isis, Scholarship Student at Noon

[Andresvmb]

Hey everyone. I’ll dive deeper into the game tomorrow, I just wanted to stop by and say hi.

I’m not even sure if an RVS vote is even appropriate but since I’m playing here because of Infinity, you can imagine I have put a vote down there for now.

[Andresvmb]

Let's althunt other people instead

That Andresmvb feels like a Luca Blight alt to me

I don’t know how to feel about this. No I’m my own self. Not an alt.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is not posting because he's not confident in his scumgame

Or maybe I was busy around MY BIRTHDAY haha

To be honest, I think my Scum game is kind of decent. Not great, but decent. It’s a shame this is my 12th consecutive game rolling Town. What the hell man.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: tris

[Andresvmb]

I have this feeling in my gut that SirCakez is overreacting to an entrance that didn’t strike me as particularly Scummy or Towny from Sha 77 to appear to be trying to solve.

@Infinity what do you make of this theory?

[Andresvmb]

/me opens eyes a tiny bit
/me notices we're still in class
/me goes back to sleep
zzzzzzzzz

You did sign up for school you know?

[Andresvmb]

I could see it. Cakez's push pinged me at first but I've had trouble reading him in the past and he feels kind of similar to when I played with town!him recently

Well I haven’t played with Cakez before so I don’t have any meta there.

Interestingly enough I’ve played with more than just you here in the past. I’ve been in games with Flea, tris, Ydrasse, and Alisae (not sure if recently, though I definitely remember an old game we played together where I lost in final 3 after incorrectly concluding they were Scum). I think my best bet at correctly guessing someone’s alignment is probably Ydrasse - I was able to figure out they were obvious Town last time around. But yeah not SirCakez.

[Andresvmb]

zzzzzzzzz

I don’t know whether to TR this anti-Town behavior. I kind want to.

[Andresvmb]

Alisae (not sure if recently, though I definitely remember an old game we played together where I lost in final 3 after incorrectly concluding they were Scum).

?

Unless it’s a different Alisae.

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/chosen-gam ... =andresvmb

I remember it so clearly because it was one of the first mafia games I ever played. And it always hurts to lose at the end.

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m going to go out and enjoy my birthday. I’ll be back if not much later tonight, tomorrow. With the occasional checking in if I find a window of time.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be catching up as I eat lunch, so bear with me for a moment. I can obviously see we decided on the first person to heal, and we have to make a second decision. So I’ll be reading with that in mind.

[Andresvmb]

Sha77 may legitimately be scum
Their opening was tonally weird and I hate this reaction

This just seemed too overconfident for me. Like you’re trying to get into a fight and not solve someone’s alignment. Sha said their early reads, which clearly were meant more as conversation starters than definitive pronouncements backed by multiple pages of play, weren’t actually all that serious (which again just seems reasonable to me since it’s the early part of the game). Yet you “hate” the reaction? What I would ask you is how do you not think this is a bit over the top? I skimmed through some of your more recent posts - and now you’re constructing a universe for the game where I’m Scum because I thought maybe you pushed an argument a bit too far? Please. Unfortunately there’s an aggressiveness to it that I need to figure out where exactly it’s coming from, and whether it’s Scummy or not. I wouldn’t vote to heal you, that’s for sure.

[Andresvmb]

^That’s in response to 186.

[Andresvmb]

You're just a little behind, my Andres

Yeah I know. I’m just trying to react to everything.

[Andresvmb]

You're just a little behind, my Andres

Yeah I know. I’m just trying to react to everything.

Besides it helps me after if I’m still around. When I look back, I want to be able to remember why I felt a certain way at a particular point in the game. So it’s for me as much as it’s for everyone else.

[Andresvmb]

@Sha I have yet to play Scum on this forum, so you’ll have to go find some of my Scum games in the first place I started playing Mafia on. I quoted back a game with Alisae I played in this very game - you can find some Scum games from me there.

[Andresvmb]

where did I construct a universe where you're scum? I think you are scummy but I don't think you HAVE to be.

You wrote that Alisae and I are Scummy but probably not both Scum. Alisae is actually reading me correctly, you’re not, yet we’re both Scummy. It’s completely manufactured.

[Andresvmb]

it's more the fact that he's spelling out the debate process to me that i dislike, thinking that he's trying to make it seem like he's thinking about things when he could have just said "i think this is anti-town behavior but i still scumread it"

This is an inaccurate way of reading what I wrote (and I’m not going to debate the reasoning for your SR which is just... yeah I don’t know what to say. That post is a real weak-ass attempt at making myself look good if that’s what I’m trying to do. Had I posted a full reads list and a pyramid where everyone is in my head, while parsing all of the posts up to that point - that would be me trying to make myself look good. I don’t have nearly that many reads so that would just be fake.)

What I was hinting at is that the obviously anti-Town behavior (I’m here, I think this game is boring basically, I’m going to sleep until something happens, and I’m not contributing [from Alisae]), seemed too obvious for Scum. Which is why I wasn’t SR’ing it.

And did you really not expect me to think about the game or posts as either alignment anyway? Would you rather I not show you my thinking process?

[Andresvmb]

do not vote me :3 we do not need me being in charge of explosions

This makes me want to vote you. In fact I’ll do just that.

HEAL: Flea The Magician

I don’t think this is reverse psychology, so it’s probably just a Townie shying away from responsibility. We should consider it.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: Sha 77

I’m happy sheeping you here too. I think Alisae is likely to be Town here.

[Andresvmb]

though it'd be very funny if alisae and andres were some sort of scum faction together and i pinned them like that

This is bad. I can’t tell whether you’re misguided or Scum, but I find it fascinating that this early you think you’ve correctly figured out the Scum Team with such confidence.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think she expressed it with particular confidence

You may be right. I might have read some arrogance behind that post that perhaps isn’t there. Instead of it being “I believe I’ve pinned the Scum Team correctly early, and wouldn’t that be funny?”, it could be more of a “I don’t think I have it right, but if I did, that would be funny”.

Either way, it’s quite obviously wrong, and I find that deeply concerning.

[Andresvmb]

I do genuinely believe that the safest play here is to vote where no interest has been shown yet. Flea is an incredibly safe choice. I don’t trust Ydrasse, and I don’t trust Sir Cakez. Sir Cakez calling Sha’s posts “gross” also seemed just overly aggressive again. I would push for consideration of a slot that hasn’t been in the conversation just yet. It’s less likely in my mind to be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

And even if you find me Scummy, you can probably guess that I wouldn’t so openly push my Partner as the selection when they haven’t been close to the leading vote getter.

[Andresvmb]

My observations were exaggerated and memes lol, not serious at all

Maybe the only one that was serious is the Flea self-conscious observation

I already talked about this but this post felt tonally off, too worried about perception of themself

The tone was faked, Cakezy

What do you hate about that reaction? You think those observations were serious?

Immediately dives on me to try to get me to change my mind

I like the Ydrasse/tris/Sha townbloc, and honestly, I think Ali's suspicions come from a place of good faith too

really hate this attempt to declare a townblock

Why is what gross, Cakez? Why aren't I just town who's happy with a townbloc that has me and someone who's likely town in it?

Immediately dives on me to try to get me to change my mind, again. I believe I'm the only one expressing suspicion of Sha too.

I don't know I can't point to many specific posts on ISO. but I just don't like the tone of many posts. it feels a little too "un-serious" in a very intentional and manufactured way. as opposed to Pooky's whose silliness I buy more.

Having said that, I understand very much where this is coming from. I can’t say I liked the Town block there either.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, if Flea is scum who just hasn't been feeling this game yet, do you really expect faer partner(s) to be pushing a heal onto Flea? I don't think the absence of interest makes someone more likely to be town alone

I disagree - I think it does. Beyond that, Flea actively campaigned against themselves. They’re the only player to do it. Self-voting is technically optimal right, since the only alignment you know for certain is your own. Actively campaigning against yourself is sub-optimal. But in a game with few Scum (it’s only 9 of us, 3 Scum or more seems like a ridiculous reach with powers up for grabs), eliminating yourself from contention seems like a bad idea. At least you wouldn’t rule yourself out, right? So it’s probably Town. That’s my logic.

[Andresvmb]

I also don't really feel I've been very aggressive this game?

Well you did call someone’s posting “gross” hahaha I would argue that’s probably more aggression than anyone else has shown thus far.

[Andresvmb]

Agree to disagree on this one.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, only 1 player wasn’t picked by either Team? That precludes the neighborhood from forming for the rest of the game correct?

[Andresvmb]

Flea why did you hammer I told people to wait for the VC

HURT: alisae for now, mainly because I'm paranoid of em and I feel varying degrees of comfortable with everyone else on the attackers list. I'd be ok leaving out pooky or maybe andres as well

I think this is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Flea why did you hammer I told people to wait for the VC

HURT: alisae for now, mainly because I'm paranoid of em and I feel varying degrees of comfortable with everyone else on the attackers list. I'd be ok leaving out pooky or maybe andres as well

I think this is Scum.

Why?

Because Alisae is Town. I’m like almost certain of it. It’s the only strong read I have. So this guarantees there will be Scum almost among the choices to be made that could end the game.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, only 1 player wasn’t picked by either Team? That precludes the neighborhood from forming for the rest of the game correct?

who wasn't picked? hasn't everyone been?

Is this for real? What are the odds of that?

[Andresvmb]

In fact both the Attacker and the Healer Leaders picked Alisae for their respective Teams. Why is that the one choice you’re looking to exclude?

[Andresvmb]

PEdit: andres idgi, if alisae is town we can still form an all-town bloc yeah?

The more obvious Town you exclude, the harder it is to win. I wouldn’t vote for a single team without Alisae in it. That’s my stand.

[Andresvmb]

PEdit: andres idgi, if alisae is town we can still form an all-town bloc yeah?

The more obvious Town you exclude, the harder it is to win. I wouldn’t vote for a single team without Alisae in it. That’s my stand.

Now, they voted to Heal me a lot. I need to be careful and hope I’m not pocketed. I’m known to be a little loud, and I can certainly be wrong. So I will re-read. But just my gut instinct was always extremely positive on Alisae.

[Andresvmb]

In fact both the Attacker and the Healer Leaders picked Alisae for their respective Teams. Why is that the one choice you’re looking to exclude?

Andres I'm not sure why you're being like this. I don't think alisae is obvious town and I explained my reasoning, I also would be ok having alisae in a team this is a pretty ??? reason to think I'm scum

You wanted to exclude me, and Alisae. I’m Town, I think Alisae is Town. More often than not, that means you’re Scum. This shouldn’t be so hard to grasp.

[Andresvmb]

keep in mind that all scum needs to do is include one of them. if infinity is scum, she's fine with any group that includes her. she doesn't need to exclude specific people.

And you think Scum are going to get themselves included by not offering their opinion? Of course they want to influence the outcome. Suggesting otherwise seems bad to me. They can’t argue for including themselves probably too transparent. So they have to argue for it by excluding others. They also probably know that the Town are going to go about it via process of elimination. It’s exactly how I intend to do it at least.

[Andresvmb]

Okay so to win, we have to pick 5 players that are Town right? Isn’t that the play here?

[Andresvmb]

I just want to make sure I’m understanding the mechanics. And to do it, we need to vote to exclude players?

[Andresvmb]

I think our best bet is going with Ydra's players.

Ydra’s players minus Infinity? Is that how it would work?

[Andresvmb]

I think our best bet is going with Ydra's players.

Ydra’s players minus Infinity? Is that how it would work?

Like if I voted to exclude Infinity from that Team, and a majority decided that to be the course of action, the submission would be the remaining five players?

[Andresvmb]

Okay so both Ydrasse and Sha 77 picked {Infinity, Alisae, tris}. I think it’s wise to let them hear their reasons for why all of them are Town.

[Andresvmb]

Meh I’m not particularly optimistic that either Team we pick will not have Scum in it. Basically the choice here is to determine whether we trust the leaders first. Because if I’m Scum, and I’m a Leader, I’m always picking my Partner in order to guarantee that I don’t lose the game right then and there. So if we don’t trust the leader, the odds of us winning basically go to 0. Having said that, if we exclude a player from a Team, and we don’t win, the odds are not that bad that the Team contains all of the Scum. That could be fascinating. And that the leader themselves is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’ll start there, ISO both Ydrasse and Sha 77, and figure out who I TR more and why.

[Andresvmb]

Well having said the above, if I’m a Leader, perhaps there’s a bias not to include the Partner since the Town picked me to make choices for them after all, and they’ll trust me. Hm. Okay anyway looking into the Leaders first still makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

(and from the way cakez responded to things this game i'm thinking he's scum)

Ydrasse can you elaborate on your read on SirCakez? And what made you do such a strong 180?

[Andresvmb]

Okay well Sha’s inclusion of SirCakez needs to be explained for sure so I’ll wait for that. In the mean time, I need to get out of here.

[Andresvmb]

Okay well Sha’s inclusion of SirCakez needs to be explained for sure so I’ll wait for that. In the mean time, I need to get out of here.

This isn’t because I think SirCakez is Scum btw. Or at least I don’t think there’s any guarantee as to that being the case. I think it’s more became Sha was constantly suspicious there and put them towards the bottom of their pyramid, and SirCakez seemed generally skeptical of them. It seems like a decision that should certainly be elaborated on.

[Andresvmb]

ex; Andres' attacks seem scum motivated because Infinity is very likely town and thus scum need to make room for well scum. Not rocket science.

This is just a flip version of my very argument.

So why is Infinity very likely Town? And why couldn’t I just be wrong and Town? You’re just basically parroting the same wrong view all game and seem to get all dismissive when challenged. Well, answer.

[Andresvmb]

I found most of your posts day 1 to be pretty scummy.

Okay but why? I’m town and you’re wrong. So I want to understand if you’re just being insistent and Town, or actively trying to sabotage my positioning in the game.

[Andresvmb]

Your argument calling me overconfident was nonsensical. You did very little scumhunting outside of interactions with Alisae and I.

Except you are overconfident. You make pronouncements with little in the form of actual quotes and analysis. Which is fine some players play that way and don’t provide detailed explanations I don’t necessarily care for them either to be honest. But your entire view of the game seems dependent on me being Scum and if you’re going to insist on that narrative you’re going to cost us dearly. Because I know that excluding me there is not likely to win the game quickly.

But you know, in a way, if I get excluded and the game doesn’t end, then that helps me tremendously because if I were Scum, the odds that both my Partner and I are picked by a Town Leader are not super high. More often than not there’s only 1 Scum in a pool picked by a Town player.

[Andresvmb]

And why do I have to be latched onto Alisae? Why can’t I just be right about a read? You seem to think only your reads are worth considering, and everybody else’s are either bad or coming from Scum with knowledge.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll point out that the minute that I made an argument for Infinity potentially being Scum, their contributions have shrunk dramatically. And now they’re hinting at Alisae being Scum without coming out and saying it. That doesn’t seem interesting to you?

[Andresvmb]

Andres why do you TR alisae?

Why is this directed at only me? Both Sha 77 and Ydrasse actively decided to put them in their Teams in a way that actually impacts the game. I just have a read. It’s mostly based on the fact that Alisae has read me correctly, and I agree with most of their views, and think I’ve been open. I am trying to figure out what I think about the frustration shown when they flipped out at Cakez to be honest - I think that can be easily faked. That escalation also in a way puts me in a situation where I feel like I have to defend them (since it’s against someone SR’ing me) and if Alisae is Scum, that’s a great way to maintain a pocket. But if that was the strategy it’s been the case since very early since they’ve voted to heal me for the first and the second slots, despite not getting any traction, and I don’t get what the benefit of all that was from a Scum!Alisae perspective.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve been open.

They’ve*

For example, by sharing games and actively trying to get you for instance to read them properly.

[Andresvmb]

I mean yeah I can be active and loud but I’ve been mostly sidelined here and none of my preferred choices or courses of action have gotten much attention. I’m very much in the fringe here.

[Andresvmb]

This push is probably towny for you though tbf

I would also like to understand this a little more. You’re implying here that I tend to be wrong as Town, or at least hinting at that. So why is Cakez so convinced I have to be Scum if I’m wrong about you?

[Andresvmb]

You seem to have felt somewhat similarly to me about ali's cakez post, so it's odd to me that you would call me scum from that.

I didn’t call you Scum for that. Alisae’s reaction happened after I had signaled I thought you were Scum based on the fact that you were trying to exclude one of Alisae or me.

[Andresvmb]

This push is probably towny for you though tbf

I would also like to understand this a little more. You’re implying here that I tend to be wrong as Town, or at least hinting at that. So why is Cakez so convinced I have to be Scum if I’m wrong about you?

I'm not saying you're towny because you're wrong, but the push felt very town-leadery. Like you're trying to form a bloc and pushing against people who don't agree with it, which is in character for town!you I think.

So you think I could be Town for pushing you, primarily because I’m trying to sort amongst those in one of the groups to try and get a win (and btw I’m going to agree that Ydrasse is more likely to be Town than Sha so my strong preference is to pick from there). Yet Sir Cakez has the exact opposite reaction. So why do you seem to be questioning me but giving SirCakez a pass?

[Andresvmb]

And now they’re hinting at Alisae being Scum without coming out and saying it.

This is what I meant by calling me scum for it, it's kind of implied

I straight up called you Scum earlier. You didn’t do it for Alisae. If you have a position, state it. Don’t be so skittish about it.

[Andresvmb]

Hectic and ydrasse have expressed their reasons for TRing ali

And this not in much detail. I definitely had some follow up questions that have yet to be addressed.

[Andresvmb]

Wrt cakez, what do you mean the opposite reaction? He at least posted thoughts about what he wanted to do with the groups. I don't particularly townread cakez but I'm also more focused on the people in the groups atm.

SirCakez is in Sha’s group. And they think my attack on you is Scum motivated and hot garbage. Are you not reading their posts?

[Andresvmb]

Wrt cakez, what do you mean the opposite reaction? He at least posted thoughts about what he wanted to do with the groups. I don't particularly townread cakez but I'm also more focused on the people in the groups atm.

SirCakez is in Sha’s group. And they think my attack on you is Scum motivated and hot garbage. Are you not reading their posts?

Do you mean to say that you’re more focused on Ydrasse’s group?

[Andresvmb]

If I had a strong position on ali, you'd know

It doesn’t have to be strong but if we’re going to go for excluding someone in Ydrasse’s group, I would want to see some solid reasoning for it. If it’s me so be it.

[Andresvmb]

My read on you is based on specifically how I've seen you in the past and how you approached the push, cakez SRing you is whatever and not super AI imo

You think I’m Town, and you see someone calling my positioning in the game hot garbage, voting to exclude me from the Team, and you don’t think it’s AI? So then what is?

[Andresvmb]

My read on you is based on specifically how I've seen you in the past and how you approached the push, cakez SRing you is whatever and not super AI imo

You think I’m Town, and you see someone calling my positioning in the game hot garbage, voting to exclude me from the Team, and you don’t think it’s AI? So then what is?

I feel like we have very differently philosophies about this game, I focus a lot more on whether someone's play feels in character for them/whether they're tonally off

Scum need to make sure that one of their own makes it into the volleyball Team. Positioning around it is definitely key here. And it’ll help solve the game down the line if we get it wrong. How can you just brush all of that off?

It’s not even a difference in philosophies I don’t think. I of course take tone and emotion into account. I think that unless you’ve read a lot of my games, arguing from meta might be a bit hard to do, actually. How do you know that my tone here is not in line with my Scum game if you’ve never read a game with Scum!me or seen me play Scum? How do you know I don’t try to play the role of leader as Scum too? The answer is you don’t. So I’m not sure how you can make any determination about my alignment applying what you’re saying. We’ve only played once together before.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres: Did you mention your town streak in the 10th or 11th game you rolled town?

You’ve already made up your kind so why do you care? Ask some of the players that have played with me see what they say. Or you can go read my games.

If you actually care about the answer, it’s actually yes. Repeatedly. Talked about it at length.

[Andresvmb]

made up your kind

*made up your mind

[Andresvmb]

The thing is that cakez has barely any influence in this gamestate

I don’t agree with this at all. I think SirCakez has a stronger voice than you’re giving them credit for. If you were making this argument about Flea or Pooky who barely have any reads or much input fine.

[Andresvmb]

pedit: I scumread you, Andres, but I'm not incapable of changing my mind if I'm wrong

You are wrong. You’re responsible for your read though, I’m not. I want to win, so I’ll try and clarify stuff that’s asked. But don’t put the onus on me for getting stuff wrong. It’s not like I have been silent or not contributing.

[Andresvmb]

where did I construct a universe where you're scum? I think you are scummy but I don't think you HAVE to be.

You wrote that Alisae and I are Scummy but probably not both Scum.

Alisae is actually reading me correctly, you’re not, yet we’re both Scummy.

It’s completely manufactured.

What does this mean? Since Alisae is reading Andres as town, Cakez shouldn't be reading both of them as scummy? The logic makes no sense to me

Alisae was one of the few players at that stage (i) reading me correctly and (ii) actively defending me. You’ll notice Ydrasse had a SR of my slot, and SirCakez was attacking me. SR’ing the one player that’s defending me while also attacking me is a classic way of diminishing Alisae’s ability to sway the rest of the Town into a correct read of my slot. Because yeah maybe I’m Town, but then Alisae is Scum, so can they be trusted? It pushes both of us to the fringe. That’s why I was extremely skeptical of that.

[Andresvmb]

// - Feels like he's concerned about Cakez scumreading him so is explaining why he said what he said and is attempting to change his mind

Let me very clear. I don’t give much of a shit about people SR me when I’m Town. I am more concerned about getting stuff right. Me expressing my uncertainty is just that. If SirCakez wants to maintain a position that’s wrong, that’s entirety up to them.

[Andresvmb]

// - Feels the need to clarify he's not healing Cakez under any circumstances - why clarify this? It just feels tonally off

Did I say I wouldn’t vote to heal them under any circumstances? That’s not what I said. Besides, what are you criticizing exactly? At that stage, I wasn’t actively TR’ing them. A vote for healing is a vote for a player you think is Town. So why would I do that? I was explaining that despite not being sure whether I felt they were Scum or not, I wouldn’t actively push them as a Town leader. Why is that tonally off? Your argument is just flimsy and hard to attack, which is why it’s phrased this way.

[Andresvmb]

Why does scum!Cakez base all of his reads around attacking you? You're saying he's scumreading Alisae just so he can disregard Alisae's read on you and also scumreasd you, but purpose that does serve him during a phase where people are looking for town and neither you or Alisae are in contention anyway?

That was early - you don’t know this. Of course it serves a purpose. This is like asking why would Scum try to make it harder for the rest of the Town to vote one of their own? I don’t know, to win?

[Andresvmb]

do not vote me :3 we do not need me being in charge of explosions

This makes me want to vote you. In fact I’ll do just that.

HEAL: Flea The Magician

I don’t think this is reverse psychology, so it’s probably just a Townie shying away from responsibility. We should consider it.

Flimsy reason to heal someone. I don't think anyone picked up on Flea being likely town for this extremely short and easy to fake line. scum!Andres has TMI or is just faking this push, but it's a struggle to believe he actually thinks this

HEAL: Sha 77

I’m happy sheeping you here too. I think Alisae is likely to be Town here.

Happy to sheep Alisae on me, but not just heal Alisae directly? The thought processes just don't seem natural here

though it'd be very funny if alisae and andres were some sort of scum faction together and i pinned them like that

This is bad. I can’t tell whether you’re misguided or Scum, but I find it fascinating that this early you think you’ve correctly figured out the Scum Team with such confidence.

Ydrasse said it with not a lot of confidence at all, she just humoured it. This is another thing that just makes me go ???

Nothing here are even remotely good reasons to SR me. What is wrong about me sheeping a TR onto a player that’s gathering some votes? And why is my reasoning so horrible? It’s a way to get perspectives on Flea, who nobody seemed to be paying much attention to. Even if I fail to get them to be a Leader, at least we get some views from other players, see what their thought process is. Do you just want me to put out fully formed perfect reads with unassailable logic?

[Andresvmb]

Ydrasse said it with not a lot of confidence at all, she just humoured it. This is another thing that just makes me go ???

Why did you ignore my correction that came soon thereafter?

[Andresvmb]

Why does scum!Cakez base all of his reads around attacking you? You're saying he's scumreading Alisae just so he can disregard Alisae's read on you and also scumreasd you, but purpose that does serve him during a phase where people are looking for town and neither you or Alisae are in contention anyway?

That was early - you don’t know this. Of course it serves a purpose. This is like asking why would Scum try to make it harder for the rest of the Town to vote one of their own? I don’t know, to win?

But was anyone else agreeing with Cakez? Were you or Alisae likely to be healed despite what Cakez was saying? Did Cakez push for himself to be healed? No to all

So I'm not sure how you can get a narrative for that being a useful scum motivation for Cakez

Scum want to sideline Town to influence the vote either for someone that’s TR’ing them, or to improve the odds that they or their partner is picked. Did I push for myself to be healed? No. So what?

[Andresvmb]

Ydrasse said it with not a lot of confidence at all, she just humoured it. This is another thing that just makes me go ???

Why did you ignore my correction that came soon thereafter?

Because I called you out on it lol

If you do something scummy and get called out on it, you can correct it, sure, but it doesn't make the first instance any less scummy or gone

So if I had doubled down on it, would that make me Town? Like I can misinterpret a post, or read something the wrong way. It makes me an imperfect player, but not necessarily Scum.

[Andresvmb]

This isn’t toxic. Your points are just a collection of bad and you’re wrong. I am trying to better understand why. If you want to bail that’s up to you.

[Andresvmb]

The main thing that I just don't believe on his side is that push to HEAL Flea - it makes so much more sense to someone who's informed about Flea's alignment and thinks it's a towny push to make, and also that scumread on Cakez feels really flawed.

This assumes I’m a bad Scum player and it’s a bit infuriating. So out of everyone in the game, my choice to make myself look Towny as Scum is to push one of the less obvious slots as a Leader? Think about that for a minute. What if I didn’t trust the prevailing voices or didn’t think we were going to get a decent outcome?

If I wanted to make a “towny” push as Scum, I would have agreed with the players getting TR (or pushed the consensus). Or even better, formed a more detailed read on someone and pushed them. Used vague words like towny tone and playing within their Town meta while pushing the game forward. Instead, I made a strategic argument for a push. Which, btw, wasn’t entirely dismissed and for a slot you picked! It’s ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

And why is my Scum push on SirCakez really flawed? I’m not the one arguing any certainty here, SirCakez is. I expressed some reservations, yes. But not nearly to the extent SirCakez is.

[Andresvmb]

I said why in the same post...

Not really no. You’re just generalizing all of my D1 posts and calling them Scummy. That’s not great reasoning.

So do you want me as Town to dispel nonsense or just give up? Because if you want me to shut up and not combat bullshit, then you’re talking to the wrong player. It doesn’t mean I’m like worked up or upset like what.

[Andresvmb]

And I have never once said my view of the game revolves around you? It's just an argument that's been brought up recently.

And did I say you said it? It’s just obvious that your whole worldview very much depends on me being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Just look at your ISO dude you constantly talk about Alisae and you say Alisae is your most certain townread. It's pretty obvious why I'm making this conclusion.

You’re not answering. Yeah I talk a lot about Alisae. Why does that mean I’m latching on to them? Do you SR Alisae?

[Andresvmb]

Sha hasn't been back and Ydrasse has some sort of meta tell I think? Neither are terribly helpful.

That wasn’t directed at you so why are you responding?

[Andresvmb]

This reads like indignant scum tonally

And you read like Scum that just wants to bury me.

[Andresvmb]

Then why are you getting so worked up over people SRing you here bro?

And I’m not your bro. It’s like your intentionally trying to start an argument. You’ve never really focused on reading my alignment. This is either Scum or a bad case of confirmation bias.

[Andresvmb]

Okay like either way, given the attacks from Sha and Cakez, my obvious strong preference is never to push that Team through. It’s like obvious it contains Scum almost always. So I would much rather have my Team go through and me be directly excluded, than any Team with Sha/SirCakez.

[Andresvmb]

I think you’re trying to get me to react in a way that’ll convince other players I’m Scum, and you’re failing at it. Mainly because I’m not but also because your arguments are weak.

You seem quite stuck in this mindset which is quite unrealistic since we haven’t had a single flip and we don’t know even the outcome of the choices made by the Leaders so I’ll ignore you for now and slot you as Scum. Provided we don’t pick a Team with you in it I don’t think I care.

[Andresvmb]

HURT: Andresvmb

[Andresvmb]

This is just to make a point. Alisae turning on me when there’s a lot of interest to exclude me is fascinating I have to say. I might be way in over my head this game just in terms of the players. Clearly the Scum have the advantage so let’s expose it.

[Andresvmb]

tho it feels weird, I wonder who andres' partner is.
It doesn't seem like it would be Flea unless Flea is bussing but if we actually do go through with a Ydra team and exclude Andres then Flea just loses no?

Either way I think hurting Andres is probably the way to go. I don't need to turn on my brain and think about why everyone is trying to exclude Andres unless it doesn't work so.............

The reason is clear, actually. This won’t end the game. There’s Scum in the group that’ll likely be pushed (and I clearly mean Ydrasse’s group because Sha’s group is awful and should never go through) and I’m either the softest target (somehow above Pooky) or I was right and a threat to Scum (but just given my accuracy, I suspect this to be less likely - I wouldn’t confidently say that I’m right in this situation).

[Andresvmb]

The good thing is that if the game doesn’t end, and I’m still executed, I get to call you all a bunch of idiots. Unless Ydrasse flips Scum of course then I might understand it.

[Andresvmb]

This is just to make a point. Alisae turning on me when there’s a lot of interest to exclude me is fascinating I have to say. I might be way in over my head this game just in terms of the players. Clearly the Scum have the advantage so let’s expose it.

what are you implying?

That I’m going awfully wrong somewhere. Clearly there’s so much consensus around the choice and not much fighting because the Scum are getting their way. Otherwise there would be heated debate about excluding someone else instead of me. But you’re not seeing that. Even Alisae who is firmest about me being Town is voting to exclude me. So the Scum have infiltrated both groups probably and excluding me (since Ydrasse appears to be the more palatable choice) will simply continue the game.

[Andresvmb]

It’s fine I don’t care I’m not going to fight everyone that has read me wrong I don’t have the energy. I have also tried to ask questions of the leaders as to why they made certain choices and I’m not getting any answers, just getting pushed. So it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

And before you start arguing that I’m just defeated and don’t think I can win or some other bullshit, this is not a gambit. I firmly believe the game won’t end almost any which way so this is just to expose those most certain about my alignment.

[Andresvmb]

I mean that argument that I’m TMI’ing Alisae is totally ridiculous. It really is. I could argue the same in reverse and it would be more convincing, since Alisae defended me earlier and far more strongly than I did in reverse. It’s just disappointing.

[Andresvmb]

why wouldn't Ydra pick Flea on her team.

Not saying ydra is scum or anything, but I don't think scum would necessarily pick their partner for the team. The chance your team gets chosen but not you seems very very low.

So you don’t think Scum might look to guarantee they don’t lose immediately? They knew the impact of their choice. You wouldn’t at all try to definitively mitigate the downside? I wouldn’t discard it to be as unlikely as you are here.

[Andresvmb]

See Pooky this is where I'm leaning but this feels too easy ya know?
Flea tried more than this as scum in Among Us

I don't see the point of looking for a harder solution until we know the easy solution is wrong?

And all of a sudden I’m the easy solution? And this is what passes but I don’t? I really should be posting memes and speaking in code, pretending not to care, and maybe I would be TR more in this group.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway whatever let’s get this over with.

[Andresvmb]

@Ydrasse, I’m just curious, do you really believe I’m Town? Like why choose me at all?

[Andresvmb]

Besides me who do you suspect of being scum conspiring against you

Well look at it in this way.

My first instinct is not to dismiss the players that are arguing most strongly for a position. For whatever reason, I find that tends to be Town more often than not. I am not convinced you’re Scum, but you have pissed me off at times. I am more suspicious of Sha 77 actually, but again, same idea. I think some of the players that are less loud about it are more likely to be Scum. One of {Pooky, Flea} most likely (I mean Pooky is directly sheeping Sha, and doesn’t seem to care to back anything up or offer much in the form of views). And what was Flea’s reasoning again? I can’t even remember. And one of {Alisae, Infinity} would be for the second. Infinity for advocating for my exclusion first (but still calling me Towny and not getting in the middle of anything here), Alisae for the weird turnaround. I do feel like Ydrasse and tris are Town. I don’t really think Alisae is Scum to be totally honest, like I’m still hoping I have that right, but I just don’t know.

All of this also depends on just how confident the Scum are about the outcome though. If they can’t lose, then obviously you stay away from any fights and reveal the least you can. If you can lose with a correct exclusion, then maybe the odds that it’s one of the louder players go up. I just... I’m getting attacked by so many players that forming views on who is Town and who is Scum is really hard. I’m not usually misread this widely and this early.

[Andresvmb]

Having read Andres multipost wall, I ain't feeling the good juju about them.

Like I’m not giving them the right jujus? Sigh.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: Sha 77
HEAL: tris
HEAL: Infinity 324
HEAL: Alisae
HEAL: Flea the Magician

after reading all the andres stuff i’m fine w leaving him out
in this pool i think if there’s scum it might be alisae but i don’t think? this should flip w scum in it

i town lol

And our fearless leader is getting away with making these contributions and not answering any questions.

[Andresvmb]

You think Alisae turning on you is enough to toss your "near certain" scumread from earlier?

I can’t with you.

[Andresvmb]

Sha’s bad arguments swayed you? Okay then.

Look I’m done posting for now. I don’t want to waste my breath or time arguing something that’s not going to go anywhere. Let’s please just hurry this up and vote to exclude me, see what happens. Maybe we win and I’m worrying about nothing.

[Andresvmb]

You think Alisae turning on you is enough to toss your "near certain" scumread from earlier?

I can’t with you.

I meant townread on Alisae here sorry

My reaction was with town read in that sentence. I understood what you meant. I’m still flabbergasted by your comment.

[Andresvmb]

Sure Flea. I haven’t put any reads out there. Yep. Totally accurate.

[Andresvmb]

And btw I take direct offense at this stuff that I’m being toxic, btw. You can fuck off with that. You can absolutely say my arguments are anti-Town, or give a half baked, bullshit read of my slot if that makes you feel better. But fuck you with your accusation that I’m being toxic. I haven’t insulted anyone, and I’m actively questioning reasoning, not engaging in any personal attacks.

[Andresvmb]

you are a toxic beastie of a being.

This is you directly calling me toxic, not saying the environment I’m creating is toxic. We’re done engaging on this.

[Andresvmb]

Nah fuck off.

[Andresvmb]

regardless of alignment stuff i’m sorry if you’re not having fun andres..

It’s not about this though. Do you think I’m being toxic?

[Andresvmb]

Fair enough.

[Andresvmb]

There’s Scum in the group that’ll likely be pushed (and I clearly mean Ydrasse’s group because Sha’s group is awful and should never go through)

wait if there's scum in ydra's group why should sha's group never go through? that doesn't make sense

I am simply gambling that there’s 2 Scum in Sha’s group, 1 in Ydra’s. That’s my feel. Trying to sort amongst Sha’s group is a total waste of time. That’s what I’m saying. I think I’ve already explained all my reads so it flows from there.

[Andresvmb]

ok, but now your making a defense that applies to your own push on infinity?

I’m not exactly trying to defend my push. Part of what I’m hinting at is that the questioning is too one-sided, somewhat in bad faith. There’s no benefit of the doubt, or uncertainty being expressed. It’s just the worst possible interpretation. If you need to paint a picture and make it convincing, that’s what you do.

[Andresvmb]

ok well that doesn't make any sense to me

Then I’ll explain it. I run through all my reads, and your instinct is to make a comment that’s just dismissive of the whole thing without trying to think through it. It’s not in good faith. So I’m not going to spend too much time trying to interact with you. If you have real questions I can help. Otherwise, not interested.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is still clearly the best to leave out

You should vote to make it happen then. After that, you only need 1 more vote to leave me out.

[Andresvmb]

{Ydrasse, tris, Alisae, Infinity 324, PookyTheMagicalBear} (3) - Flea the Magician, Alisae, Andresvmb

I guess the team can't be Flea/Andres since they'd auto-lose if this goes thru right?

This is like the most obvious conclusion. Do you have anything else?

[Andresvmb]

I'm already voting this I thought

The vote that’s getting counted is you excluding Sha from their choices. If I’m not mistaken.

[Andresvmb]

It also somewhat confuses me that Ydrasse is voting to push the Team chosen by someone else instead of their own. That makes 0 sense.

[Andresvmb]

Alisae

@Mod is this correct? Alisae put a hurt vote for “no one”. Not sure if that counts as an override or not.

[Andresvmb]

I think andres is town and I'm not convinced hectic believes this push

I’m thinking of sheeping you and voting to exclude Alisae, see what that does.

[Andresvmb]

@tris what do you want to do?

[Andresvmb]

I'm ok with excluding pooky too, though my gut is telling me not to

I don’t think we should either. It’s too much of a coin toss. I think we need to be bolder.

[Andresvmb]

@infinity I see more than a few players be deferential to hectic here. Talk to me about that.

[Andresvmb]

i was talking about how the defense you used there could also be used to defend infinity from the push you made

Yes, this is possible. I also should have been a little more cautious - I don’t know that as Scum, Infinity would have tried to act first and push a particular course of action. It really does leave you vulnerable after all. If you’ve misread the proverbial winds, it could easily make you look suspicious.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, how are you currently reading me?

804

[Andresvmb]

If I'm scum, Cakez, won't I be more incentived to include my partner in my picks?

Infinity doesn’t agree.

[Andresvmb]

I am more suspicious of Sha 77 actually, but again, same idea.

Reasoning?

Because your reasoning for your SR of my slot was bad. I asked a bunch of questions, you ducked. You still haven’t answered any of them.

[Andresvmb]

At the same time, I don’t know that I care about the answers anymore.

[Andresvmb]

HURT: Alisae

[Andresvmb]

tris and Infinity were always in for being towny, and had no bad associations with Andres

If Andres is town, Infinity's probably scum is my guess

@Sha, can you detail how you’re getting from the first to the second post? If Infinity has no bad associations with me, why does my alignment matter when determining Infinity’s?

[Andresvmb]

They're unlikely to be both scum based on their short fight at the start of today

I mean it could have been TvT right? Maybe I misread the situation, and Scum jump in to (righteously) attack my wrong push onto Infinity, sideline me for a bit. No? And aren’t you already skeptical of SirCakez? Couldn’t that be an explanation?

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’ll let this play out.

HURT: No One

I would like to see more from Ydrasse, and I think @Infinity you should comment on Sha’s views here.

[Andresvmb]

Waiting on Andres to drop me that sweet sweet meta

viewtopic.php?p=12061332#p12061332

[Andresvmb]

^I’ll catch up on this game tomorrow I’ve been a bit busy.

[Andresvmb]

HURT: PookyTheMagicalBear

[Andresvmb]

Is anybody going to play this game or are we just going to sit around waiting for folks to make a decision? Just decide already.

And also, how has Ydrasse not at the very least eaten a prod? Remarkable. I can’t recall most anything they’ve posted in the last several days.

[Andresvmb]

i’ll say no i think you’re just frustrated but i don’t think perpetuating the toxic conversation right now is really productive :<

my brain will be workiing on this tomorrow

Like this is the last they’ve posted, and that last post was just promising content and delivering nothing.

[Andresvmb]

So the last real post was 5 days ago. Like c’mon now.

[Andresvmb]

My position is also made out - listening to Cakez is a path to defeat.

[Andresvmb]

HURT: ydrasse
HURT: tris
HURT: pookythemagicalbear
HURT: alisae
HURT: andresvmb

going off of last vc i'm like, whatever at this point

I’m not clear on how this vote will get counted, but I suspect the Mod might count your vote as excluding me from the Team instead of what I believe you’re trying to do which is exclude Infinity yes?

[Andresvmb]

HURT: Infinity

Alright that’s enough. Not what I wanted but let’s just get on with it.

[Andresvmb]

This day has been dragging for long enough - let’s at least find out if there’s Scum amongst the choices Ydrasse put forth.

[Andresvmb]

@Isis TELL US WHAT HAPPENS NOW.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, what's your account name in that offsite meta you gave me and how do I ISO someone?

Same name. To ISO you need to press the button that looks like the top part of a person below any of my posts.

[Andresvmb]

I was kind of hoping the game would end. Voting Pooky seems too easy - I did genuinely feel that there wasn’t much heated debate because the Scum probably couldn’t lose. There was just a lot of shading. We might want to consider whether Ydrasse is Town to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

The good thing about it I guess is that I think Infinity is highly likely to be Town. So I can drop my paranoia there and perhaps rely on their judgment a bit more.

[Andresvmb]

*other 3

I think the fact that Infinity was specifically excluded in a situation that turned in Scum’s favor has to heavily weigh in any analysis of Infinity’s alignment. How could it not? I’m not even sure if Ydrasse being either alignment makes a difference.

I think the likeliest person to be Scum has to be an advocate for excluding Infinity that was otherwise also in the Team. That of course includes me too to a degree.

[Andresvmb]

*other 3

I think the fact that Infinity was specifically excluded in a situation that turned in Scum’s favor has to heavily weigh in any analysis of Infinity’s alignment. How could it not? I’m not even sure if Ydrasse being either alignment makes a difference.

I think the likeliest person to be Scum has to be an advocate for excluding Infinity that was otherwise also in the Team. That of course includes me too to a degree.

I don't understand. Let's assume Infinity is scum - from your town PoV the other scum is in the other 4 in your group with you. It literally doesn't matter to them who in your group is excluded at all since they would always have scum in

Yeah that’s if Ydrasse as Town picked two Scum. Which I guess is possible maybe I’m discarding that too hard.

[Andresvmb]

Sha’s bad arguments swayed you? Okay then.

Look I’m done posting for now. I don’t want to waste my breath or time arguing something that’s not going to go anywhere. Let’s please just hurry this up and vote to exclude me, see what happens. Maybe we win and I’m worrying about nothing.

This would be a bold gambit though. If Andres scum, it's surely with another in the group of 5. He remains voting to exclude himself for quite a while

Group of 6 actually, would also work if he was scum with Infinity

Pookynshah ♤•♡○》▪︎♤•[~aja

You would have to think that I’m engaging in theater at the beginning of the day then.

[Andresvmb]

i think it's andres because he didn't know how to react to my cat reaction test which works about 100% of the time

I didn’t even see your cat what. That’s dumb.

[Andresvmb]

Look here’s the reason I wanted a re-evaluation of Ydrasse. If I’m Scum, I’m picking the Team, I’ve selected my Partner, and my Team is gathering most of the votes, I try my hardest not to do much and just let it happen so that we move on. That’s why I suggested we re-evaluate Ydrasse.

[Andresvmb]

i posted it like 1 min after you posted bruh

And?

[Andresvmb]

why would scum even select their partner to be on their own team what?

So they can’t lose?

[Andresvmb]

Andres, as I understand it, Alisae eventually gave into everyone calling you scum and was okay with compromise excluding you. I don't see the scum agenda in this as why not continue to pocket you, and it's not like they care about who makes the group up - they were always being included if they're scum.

Can you explain why that made you reconsider your essentially locktown read on them and made you vote to exclude them?

This too please

I think I reacted to this in real time. I don’t know what you expect me to say now that will change anything. If I’m being consistently TR by someone, and when the pressure begins to mount on me they abandon their TR and signal that they would be okay excluding me, why wouldn’t I be suspicious of that? Wouldn’t you?

[Andresvmb]

why would it even be possible for a team leader to be excluded lol what

What are you talking about. I thought this was entirely possible. I surely remember votes piling onto Sha 77 for instance at one stage, who picked the other Team.

[Andresvmb]

(2)

{Ydrasse, tris, Infinity 324, PookyTheMagicalBear, Andresvmb} (1) - Infinity 324
{Ydrasse, tris, Alisae, Infinity 324, PookyTheMagicalBear} (2) - Flea the Magician, Andresvmb
{tris, Infinity 324, Alisae, Flea the Magician, SirCakez} (1) - SirCakez
{Sha 77, tris, Alisae, Infinity 324, SirCakez} (1) - Ydrasse

It takes five votes to make a choice.
(expired on 2021-04-23 23:00:00)

Modnote: You may not put one vote on each option like in the undertale series, voting for an attacker team overwrites your vote for a healer team and vice versa

Look at SirCakez’s vote here.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, as I understand it, Alisae eventually gave into everyone calling you scum and was okay with compromise excluding you. I don't see the scum agenda in this as why not continue to pocket you, and it's not like they care about who makes the group up - they were always being included if they're scum.

Can you explain why that made you reconsider your essentially locktown read on them and made you vote to exclude them?

This too please

I think I reacted to this in real time. I don’t know what you expect me to say now that will change anything. If I’m being consistently TR by someone, and when the pressure begins to mount on me they abandon their TR and signal that they would be okay excluding me, why wouldn’t I be suspicious of that? Wouldn’t you?

No, because I'd look at the motive Alisae has to do that as both alignments. You were essentially basing your entire read on Alisae based on how they were reading you, and ignored all the precious reasons you had to think they were town, there's obvious benefits to do that as scum which is my concern

If you’re reading me correctly early when it doesn’t suit you, then surely that biases you somewhat. I don’t always think that players throwing correct TRs out there are Town obviously that would be silly. But Alisae seemed thoughtful, and they were arriving at the correct conclusion about me. So I thought okay, some positive points there. But people reveal much more about themselves in spots when it’s convenient. If in order to completely avoid losing, you need to throw me under the bus, and ignore your prior read as Scum, I think the pressure to do it is intense. So that has to make you at least reconsider how hard you were TR’ing that person. I don’t think this is irrational.

[Andresvmb]

(2)

{Ydrasse, tris, Infinity 324, PookyTheMagicalBear, Andresvmb} (1) - Infinity 324
{Ydrasse, tris, Alisae, Infinity 324, PookyTheMagicalBear} (2) - Flea the Magician, Andresvmb
{tris, Infinity 324, Alisae, Flea the Magician, SirCakez} (1) - SirCakez
{Sha 77, tris, Alisae, Infinity 324, SirCakez} (1) - Ydrasse

It takes five votes to make a choice.
(expired on 2021-04-23 23:00:00)

Modnote: You may not put one vote on each option like in the undertale series, voting for an attacker team overwrites your vote for a healer team and vice versa

Look at SirCakez’s vote here.

What about it?

That’s for Pooky.

[Andresvmb]

So I thought okay, some positive points there.

And of course they kept voting to make me leader, which if you’re Scum, you clearly don’t want to do. Putting your faith in the hands of Town who could turn around and make some correct choices is quite the gamble. All of that gave me good vibes about Alisae. I recognize that I was never

likely

to be made leader, so take that with a grain of salt. But it has to contribute to my read. But taking a theoretical chance and facing the real risk of an outright loss are two different things. So I think the turnaround is damaging. I still maintain that.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Pooky

I’ll put my vote here for now.

[Andresvmb]

I think I inherently scumread the way you think, Andres. Even that post, I don't understand how you could think Alisae voting for you who you know is town is so indicative of them being town and it being such a GAMBLE for scum!Alisae. Like, I think it's highly likely scum voted to heal town for large parts of that phase. Your logic baffles me... this is why that meta should be helpful

I didn’t say it was a huge gamble. But going out of your way to make a case for someone who is Town is different than voting for Town because the winds are blowing in that direction. Yeah more often than not Scum are forced to vote for Town sure. That’s natural. But that’s not my point.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum are naturally trying as best they can to nudge situations to their advantage. Vocally advocating to have a particular player that is Town in a way that is detrimental to your own position is definitely a positive point. It’s not definitive, but you’re dismissing it as something I shouldn’t have even considered and I don’t understand why.

[Andresvmb]

Vocally advocating to have a particular player that is Town in a way that is detrimental to your own position is definitely a positive point.

*potentially detrimental to your own position (if you’re Scum). Obviously if you’re Town you’re doing the right thing.

[Andresvmb]

I don't think it means nearly as much as you think it does. Scum have to do

something

, it's not like they can just get away with not posting. That phase involved healing someone you thought was town. If scum are going to push someone other than themselves which eventually they need to do if they want to make any content at all, the vast majority of the time that person is going to be town rather rhan exactly their partner. That's them going for something that's against their wincon sure, but they don't really have a choice. They have to fake content at some point.

Yeah but you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. You seem to insist on this idea that I had positive feelings about Alisae because they pushed a position and it happened to be pro-Town. Well that’s not quite it now isn’t it? Because yes your cynical view is correct the Scum have to do something, more often than not the leaders will be Town, so it is what it is they have to find excuses for supporting something. But they don’t have to go out of their way to damage their position either. That’s what I’m saying Alisae was doing. Like you wouldn’t openly foreclose the possibility of having your Partner picked now would you?

[Andresvmb]

Now that changed the minute they turned on me. I feel that was more revealing of their true intentions. I suppose I’m ultimately agreeing with you - I overestimated the strength of what they were doing, and I found myself disappointed and suspicious once they went back on it because it was convenient.

[Andresvmb]

im like getting the feeling andy actually believes the stuff he is saying cuz its so bad that only a bad townie could believe it. There's no way a scum just doubles down here right?

Coming from you, this is definitely praise.

[Andresvmb]

im like getting the feeling andy actually believes the stuff he is saying cuz its so bad that only a bad townie could believe it. There's no way a scum just doubles down here right?

Coming from you, this is definitely praise.

I mean did I miss it, or you also voted wrong? I must have made a mistake. Have you solved the game yet? Ah, no, of course not.

[Andresvmb]

And were you also wrong about the inability to vote out the Leader from a Team when trying to shade me? Yeah, you were. So you can’t even read the rules properly? And I’m supposed to be bad?

[Andresvmb]

Look here’s the reason I wanted a re-evaluation of Ydrasse. If I’m Scum, I’m picking the Team, I’ve selected my Partner, and my Team is gathering most of the votes, I try my hardest not to do much and just let it happen so that we move on. That’s why I suggested we re-evaluate Ydrasse.

????
how have you reverted to this position?

We know there’s Scum amongst the people that made it through. I know my alignment. We voted wrongly to exclude Infinity. So one of two things is happening, from my perspective. Either Ydrasse is Town and picked at least one Scum amongst {tris, Alisae, Pooky} (which I’m unsure about since I TR tris, have doubts about Alisae but have leaned positively overall, and can’t read Pooky for shit), or Ydrasse is Scum, and then either picked their Partner or didn’t and was never worried about being excluded. Right?

[Andresvmb]

Well having said the above, if I’m a Leader, perhaps there’s a bias not to include the Partner since the Town picked me to make choices for them after all, and they’ll trust me. Hm. Okay anyway looking into the Leaders first still makes sense.

like, what happened to this?

That’s me not being sure. In that same page I speculated about how the Leader if Scum might be inclined to pick their Partner. I don’t understand what you mean exactly.

[Andresvmb]

Haven't read but that was so dumb y'all

Can you like contribute instead of shitting from afar?

[Andresvmb]

I’m thinking at this stage my execution is somewhat inevitable - I’ve been suspected throughout, no one seems to care for my perspective much, or thinks I’m just bad, and there seems to be a lot of interest.

I guess I’ll just put out some final thoughts after re-reading later tonight, and you all can do what you want. I’m probably a bit stretched in terms of games anyway.

[Andresvmb]

infinity thats why its andres

Though perhaps once I flip look closer at stuff like this.

[Andresvmb]

I just think there had to be 2 Scum amongst the group Ydrasse picked, or perhaps including Ydrasse. The play has been strange. Some people have clearly cared about who gets excluded - Sha 77, SirCakez for example, even if they were advocating for the exclusion to be me. And then some folks really haven’t cared much. Pooky, Ydrasse. Like some slots really never kicked into gear. As if the Town never really had a shot.

[Andresvmb]

I just think there had to be 2 Scum amongst the group Ydrasse picked, or perhaps including Ydrasse. The play has been strange. Some people have clearly cared about who gets excluded - Sha 77, SirCakez for example, even if they were advocating for the exclusion to be me. And then some folks really haven’t cared much. Pooky, Ydrasse. Like some slots really never kicked into gear. As if the Town never really had a shot.

doesn't that only make sense if the mafia is pooky or ydra? and, if it's ydra, then she wouldn't need to care since she was unlikely to be excluded anyway regardless of who's on her team

Yes and this is precisely what I’m asking everyone to look into. Whether the play has been Scummy, and whether it aligns with this idea. I can’t figure everything out on my own and outside of Infinity nobody really thinks I’m Town so I’m placing the burden on everyone to think about these things.

Look I do genuinely think it’s inevitable I die in this game. Fighting about it will just annoy me and how people are playing this game convinces me that it’s going to fall on deaf ears. SirCakez has been convinced for I don’t know how long now that I’m Scum. Sha has been hinting at me being Scum for a long time. Flea voted to exclude me, and you and Pooky have been arguing I’m Scum. I’m the easy compromise execution here almost always. So, I’m leaving you with some parting thoughts.

[Andresvmb]

why are you so sure i'm town?

You have just felt like Town in tone and thinking for a long time. Nobody has challenged you, and too many people seem to be aligned for it to be completely off. You just feel naturally inquisitive to me. Whether that’s wrong or not I don’t really know, but I haven’t looked at the game with the assumption that you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah I just realized it’s broken. Click on my face, and then the funnel. That should work.

[Andresvmb]

Btw did you Ellibereth still plays on that forum?

I also saw some controversial banned users from here too

Hahaha the player that I believe you’re referencing is actually a good friend. They’re not as controversial as you are making them sound, perhaps just... impolite.

[Andresvmb]

still have like 5 pages but I'd bet rn it's Andres/Pooky

This is such an unrealistic solve it actually hurts my brain.

[Andresvmb]

then why did you vote them out of the team?

Because I wanted the damn day to end. Had you not had enough? We had days and days of going in circles and basically no content. And we all collectively waited almost until deadline. Like this question is

easily

answered if you like read the end of the voting period for the Team submission.

[Andresvmb]

Andy sounded really pissed off at me when he thought I had insulted his play and I'm not sure there's a reason for him to be that antagonistic if he's scum, the emotive response doesn't feel like it comes from a red PoV.

You’re right I was pissed off. You called me a bad Townie. I am fine being SR, but I do take it a bit personal to be called a bad player. As either alignment. I actually try so it bothers me.

[Andresvmb]

im like getting the feeling andy actually believes the stuff he is saying cuz its so bad that only a bad townie could believe it.

I don’t see how else I’m supposed to interpret this post.

[Andresvmb]

oops i mean {me, ydra, alisae}

I think it's between you and alisae and I'm leaning more towards you than e because e has done a lot more to advance the game state,

e feels a lot more energetic and that's a feeling I think is more likely to come from frantic town, you've kind of been almost ambivalent about what happens because your position has more or less been solidified.

there's a general feeling of inevitability and almost lethargy in the game state - and it implies to me that the scum have never really been in danger in any state of the game.

the person that this can most readily be attributed to is either Hectic/Ydra (I don't think this is likely to be the team based on their interactions on early D1) or you.

I'm thinking you are the scum that is trusted to make the team no matter what as UTR and your partner is able to more or less coast and you would actually have them be off-team so that they are not in danger of being elim'd

We absolutely agree about how the game state

feels

. I’ve been saying it for a while - I do have this general feeling that the Scum have not been threatened and it’s made for some stale days and little arguing.

[Andresvmb]

im like getting the feeling andy actually believes the stuff he is saying cuz its so bad that only a bad townie could believe it.

I don’t see how else I’m supposed to interpret this post.

I think maybe my word choice was not good sorry, I mean more like "incorrect" than bad.

We can move on we’re good btw.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[Andresvmb]

it's probably andres + ?

This is so lazy.

Since you and SirCakez both want me dead, I have to think one of you is Scum. Everyone else has re-evaluated and is looking around. If I had run out of options for a push, I would be doing the same thing.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry all I fell ill yesterday. So I’m hoping to be recovered by tonight but don’t expect much from me until then.

[Andresvmb]

saying i “have to” think one of me cakez is scum is such a weird choice of words

No it isn’t a weird choice of words. It would be one thing if SirCakez for example had landed on me as Scum as part of some sort of process, where they evaluated the information they had and concluded that they thought I made most sense as Scum this game. But that’s not what they’ve done at all. Instead, they’ve been calling me Scum consistently and without fail since 393 (when they called Alisae’s choice to heal me “wacky”, which was later solidified when they called us both Scummy but likely not both Scum in 404.

Since then, everything I’ve written, and every position I’ve expressed, has been described as bad or Scum or spun in that light. There’s numerous examples of this (627, 629, 640, 703, 712, 763, 862, 931, 1002, 1043, 1240, 1245, 1248, 1288). And this is despite other players, who have clearly taken the time to think through my alignment, such as Infinity and Sha 77, coming to a different conclusion. At some point this stops feeling like a player that is taking a principled stance and won’t change their mind, and begins to feel like Scum tunneling you to get ahead. I actually would prefer to get executed in this game only so that this shameless tunneling gets exposed for what it is. Ever since I described a reaction by SirCakez as an overreaction, they decided I should die. It’s evident if you just bothered to look.

They’ve also consistently defended or propped Ydrasse up, describe their tone as Towny and chill and so on. Since SirCakez already said that they don’t bus, then I would have to assume that there’s something there if Cakez flips Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Regardless, I’m happy executing either. I’m also happy getting voted out. At some point you’re just hurting the Town instead of helping it, and if SirCakez is actually Town, then this is not going to get any better.

[Andresvmb]

meh

it's probably andres + ?

and i don't wanna think about the ? right now

p-edit i think if that's the case i'd probably have tried to get both of us healed and hedged on some paranoia about sha's early read on me to try and keep people from jumping on him as towny

And like how is this even a realistic position? The only player that’s Scummy is me? C’mon now. We had a failed Team that Ydrasse picked, and I almost got excluded while self-voting, mind you, but the only person who could possibly be Scum is me?

[Andresvmb]

I think this Day is dragging on for way too long. Somebody needs to die. If that needs to be me so be it. But let’s just get on with it. This doesn’t feel productive at all.

[Andresvmb]

i think the way you’re reacting to me voting you is scummy + misrepresentative (clearly my point when i said you + someone else wasn’t that you alone were scummy, but i didn’t want to sift through right now what felt like an obvious choice) and i haven’t been inclined to change my read on you despite everything you’ve posted

like sorry if i’m wrong, i’m not closing my eyes to your posting but i just haven’t been swayed to change my mind

cool if other people have but i’m not onboard

I don’t care if you change your mind. I’m just pointing out what will be obvious once I’m not around, that’s all. If you want to be lazy and argue that me defending my viewpoint and expressing my opinion is “Scummy”, then sure.

[Andresvmb]

in which case it’s just pooky i suppose

but i really don’t get of all the votes why you’re trying to get me; it doesn’t like, idk, you wrote a big wall towards me and you’re interacting at me but it doesn’t feel like as much you’re trying to convince others ...?

I’m not trying to convince others too hard because I don’t have the standing in the game. If I did, it would be different. Instead, what I’m doing is leaving some thoughts and potential avenues for inquiry after I’m executed. Because I’ve been saying it for a while now, I’m the obvious compromise execution. That is if Pooky doesn’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

other side of coin you’re a demotivated townie who’s tired of being wrongly read but meh

i’m not interested in much else, pooky maybe because i’m willing to admit my soulread here isn’t that strong

I’m not “demotivated”. I’m being realistic. I don’t typically play micros, and a lot of players here are new to me. You can tell because I’ve been called bad and have had my abilities questioned. Which is totally fair, btw. And I’m always looking to improve.

You’re dismissing the potential that I might be Town because I’m one of two players that realistically get executed here before you or SirCakez gets looked at in any sort of detail. So I get it. And I’m with SirCakez that you don’t convince a player directly that they’re Scum that’s obviously silly, and you allude to that also. But I am fighting misinformation directly just to expose how you’re thinking about it. That’s mostly it.

[Andresvmb]

What is revealing though is that you seem to coast for a while and stay away from the game but the minute you have Flea and I both vote you and put some mild pressure your way, you actually come out and try and make a case against me. I think that’s interesting.

[Andresvmb]

you're basically saying I'm obligated to be townreading you because you've put a lot of effort in and other players are townreading you
that's just not how mafia works

And no I haven’t suggested that you’re obligated to do anything. If you want to hold a wrong viewpoint that’s totally up to you.

What I am suggesting is that your lack of flexibility around how you view my slot is indicative of a potential agenda, and could possibly be coming from Scum. Now that possibility is only obvious to me since I know my alignment and no one else does. But when and if I flip, I would hope that other players pay attention to what I’ve said from my perspective and look at you more carefully and think about why it is that you were so insistent about me being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Now I admit and I’ve said this before, I think how loud you’ve been about it SirCakez and how consistent you’ve pushed it makes me think you could very well be tunneling Town. In fact, Ydrasse’s laziness and detachment from the game, and clearly ridiculous conclusion that I’m the only person worth executing at this stage, rings more alarm bells in my head than your stubbornness. It might just mean you’re a player that has supreme confidence and doesn’t ever sit to consider if they’re wrong. And you’ve pushed Flea, Pooky, Alisae, and me at different times if I recall correctly so that tempers what I’m saying a bit as well since you haven’t had the narrowest of viewpoints either which is what I would expect from Scum more. But it’s still a consistent, wrong push and I’m just mystified by it.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I need an alternative if not you
I'm open to elimming Pooky but everyone else just reads more town

I don’t think Pooky will flip Scum. And I don’t have that many good alternatives. I don’t think I’m that off with Ydrasse but other players that know Ydrasse better seem to think that they’re Town so what do I know.

Realistically I can’t read Flea, to be totally honest, so that’s really anybody’s guess. And I’m going to agree with you that Alisae and Infinity at least very much feel like Town. I have to think collectively we’ve been fooled by someone, and that could very well be tris, but they just also seem like Town to me and I don’t know that I could ever go against them this early. Sha 77 frankly I was doubting earlier, but I don’t know, I could be pocketed by them changing their mind about me (and Scum do do this to me a lot for some reason), but they also read like Town to me.

So yeah I’m with you that I might just not come across as well as some of the other players here, but I also wouldn’t know how to appeal or be more widely TR by the actual players in the game, whereas some of the players here clearly know how to do that. So I would watch out for those blind spots. Other than that, I don’t know what to tell you.