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[Umlaut]

i was about to say ico already gives me town pings
but then i realized that i've never actually seen his scum early game
so maybe hold that thought

This is basically exactly what I was about to write so I kind of like that Datisi had the same thought.

VOTE: samantha

I don't understand at all what Datisi saw in 29 but I'm going to sheep it anyway.

[Umlaut]

It would be easy to make suspicious glares at Andre for basically answering questions with "I don't care about any of that" but honestly I kind of relate.

That said:

VOTE: datisi

I'm vanilla

This is Scum btw. Guaranteed.

Serious? If so, why not vote your actual scumread?

[Umlaut]

That's a good reason.

I actually got some scum pings from 26 though.

[Umlaut]

Normally when someone scumreads me I have some inkling of an understanding of why even if I think the reason is bad, but I have no idea what Mom is on about here.

VOTE: llamafluff

maybe town like having fun n being goofy

This is a reason to vote someone?

[Umlaut]

I agree with Mom that the Llama wagon is nonsense, at least.

[Umlaut]

llama, for someone so determined to get us moving out of rvs and into The Serious Game... you've expressed one (1) read so far.

I really hate this post

[Umlaut]

llama, for someone so determined to get us moving out of rvs and into The Serious Game... you've expressed one (1) read so far.

I really hate this post

spicey. tell me more.

It reads as disingenuous. How many reads do you think someone has to express to qualify as serious?

[Umlaut]

Infinity, I think there's a distinction between being serious and tryharding that you're failing to make here; as far as I know Llama never claimed to be putting forth an extraordinary effort, just to be posting and voting seriously and expecting others to do the same.

[Umlaut]

Kind of think Rathe is town, actually, even though I disagree with the reasoning on Llama. I don't see scum posting 91 as a reason for a read, or really trying to start a wagon on a player like Llama at all. It's the kind of position that draws a bunch of scrutiny for no real gain if he's scum.

[Umlaut]

It got my attention because I thought it was a really bad 'case' but I couldn't make up my mind whether it was a scummy one.

[Umlaut]

Luca's starting off strong, I don't think he's made a post I disliked.

Iconeum, you seem oddly insistent on this maximally uncharitable reading of Rathe's post. Like I get that 112/172 can be read as self-contradictory but it's not like he said one thing and contradicted himself later, he flat-out said all at once "A lot of scum would do X but I think you could be scum explicitly doing not-X to look town" which is... not the same thing. It's a weird case, but how is it a scummy one?

[Umlaut]

It got my attention because I thought it was a really bad 'case' but I couldn't make up my mind whether it was a scummy one.

umlaut town
this would be a silly thing to fake

Honestly I would totally fake this as scum.

[Umlaut]

I was going to wait for Icon to get back and respond to my post but I'm not patient enough for that.

VOTE: Iconeum

Pretty much what the Llama said. His push on Rathe is really flimsy and based on what seems like a bad-faith misread of Rathe's posts, which is okay for an early game push but he's treating it like a slam-dunk case to the point of trying to shade Datisi for defending him when he tries to set the record straight. And then trying to say in 280 that that's not what he was doing and that 274 is somehow not suggesting Datisi is scum, only to say again in 292 that he is "overly defending" Rathe. Unless this is supposed to be just a general alignment-neutral criticism of how Datisi plays it seems like it's obviously implying Datisi is sus, so why try to deny that's what he's saying?

(Aside: "Why are you defending so-and-so" is the most annoying insinuation ever. I will defend whoever I want against ill-founded accusations, it's called playing Mafia.)

[Umlaut]

Oh, and happy birthday, zoomer!

[Umlaut]

i think people who r thinking r town so datisi luca anya mom

Explain why Anya is on this list? I find her impossible to read.

[Umlaut]

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of those votes for Iconeum is Scum fueling a fight between Town in Rathe, Iconeum. I do TR Rathe actually. Iconeum? Much harder to say.

This is an oddly specific hypothesis about what scum are up to given that you can't even say whether the two people "scum [are] fueling a fight between" are both town

[Umlaut]

Oh look, seven new pages.

I'm going to try and skim them but probably won't really be able to read in-depth until later tonight.

[Umlaut]

btw the wagons are -2 and -3, meaning mafia could rush through either of us if they are off the wagons and don't care about appearances

Bad post

Ico's mini-freakout in 412/413 is wild and his "you're not being honest" vote on me in 415 just seems like naked omgus.

i read [Outworld's] ISO and i just see a bunch of opinions on stuff that is happening, analysis

it reads like he is attempting to solve the game

That seems like... the bare minimum that anyone trying to look town would do? Of course it's opinions on stuff that is happening. I suppose 'analysis' is beyond the bare minimum but still this is pretty weak.

Iconeum case on zoomer seems pretty weak too and Zoomer's responses in 457 etc. ring towny to me. I actually really like how Zoomer is responding to the push and using it to better sort Icon (though it's hard to separate that out from agreeing with the conclusion)

I don't think i ever tried to discredit anyone this game.

What do you think 'discredit' means?

Re. 497 I honestly have no idea what I've done that Zoomer thinks is 'confrontational,' I feel like I'm off to a slow start tbh, that's kind of a weird reason to tr me. The followup on that seems reasonable though, at any rate I'd expect him to more easily be talked out of that read if he were scum given that Datisi and Infinity both critiqued it instantly

(Incidentally, Datisi gets some town points for calling that out)

Depends on the player, for a lot of players it's just vibes, ico had what I thought was a particularly towny push, samantha is now showing a nonchalant reaction to their wagon which I see as towny

I don't like townreads that are "oh this person hasn't done anything scummy" because I find that scum can play like that pretty easily especially on d1

Infinity: i don't like townreading people just because they haven't done anything scummy

nah im not that petty to be annoyed
so youre on the wagon to get content out of him?

No I think he's scummy because he hasn't towntold

also Infinity: i scumread people because they haven't done anything towny

I don't see a problem with this?

[Umlaut]

Apparently most players in this game are active when im asleep or unavailable at work. Will try and get read up tonight but I dont really have much time today. More likely I get fully caught up after work Friday.

Oh look, seven new pages.

I'm going to try and skim them but probably won't really be able to read in-depth until later tonight.

oh look what a surprise

both players who initiated the push on me are laying low now that there's a wagon on me

there's scum in these 2, umlaut over llama i think

yeet please

This is really dumb considering I followed up on that about three posts later.

If you're town then why do you have to make such bullshit pushes?

[Umlaut]

what do you think about outworlder umlaut

what do you think about outworlder umlaut

Thinking about Outworlder is something I should probably do and is on my agenda.

(But I'm at work now and have company all weekend so it's going to be hard for me to really post or even read more than intermittently until Sunday or so)

[Umlaut]

I'm sort of here now but need to get my head back into the game.

Zoomer continues to be the towniest of towns.

[Umlaut]

I want mom to come back and convince everyone that llama is scum

Were you already convinced when you wrote this that Llama was scum? If so then why wait for Mom to "come back and convince everyone" before you vote?

[Umlaut]

Also, I would also like to point out the counter wagons that conveniently happened after Umlaut took off, and I will also conveniently state how umlauts discussion became background noise to these much easier, much juicier pushes

This reads like genuine towny confbias to me.

[Umlaut]

I'm really disengaged from this game and finding it hard to pay attention :/

I was asked a while ago for a read on OutWorldER. Supposed to be working now but I'm going to at least run an ISO on him tonight, if I don't make a post about it then kindly yell at me.

[Umlaut]

Good question, it's been a busy week and a busier weekend so that's probably part of it but hard to say if it's all of it.

[Umlaut]

Got prodded, I'm here

UNVOTE: Iconeum

Don't know if he's town but my reads are way stale at this point and Icon is a non-wagon. I did see Icon giving reasons I could be town that he could just as easily keep to himself but not sure what to make of that, he certainly doesn't seem to want to actually dissuade my wagon

Am I still at E-1? I saw I was at one point.

[Umlaut]

Am I still at E-1? I saw I was at one point.

anya unvoted you, but who knows with her honestly. you catching up?

Working on it, yeah. I tried to iso OutWorldER but basically nothing stands out, which is maybe the whole point of that wagon but if so I'd like to think we can do better than that.

[Umlaut]

umlaut is content scumreading me for something he says was actually a viable push in his eyes

You're continuing to push this version of what I said, but your read of Rathe wasn't even the main thing making me decide to vote you. Here's the post where I did:

VOTE: Iconeum

Pretty much what the Llama said. His push on Rathe is really flimsy and based on what seems like a bad-faith misread of Rathe's posts, which is okay for an early game push but he's treating it like a slam-dunk case to the point of trying to shade Datisi for defending him when he tries to set the record straight. And then trying to say in 280 that that's not what he was doing and that 274 is somehow not suggesting Datisi is scum, only to say again in 292 that he is "overly defending" Rathe. Unless this is supposed to be just a general alignment-neutral criticism of how Datisi plays it seems like it's obviously implying Datisi is sus, so why try to deny that's what he's saying?

Your push on Rathe

was

pretty flimsy but I immediately said that the real problem was the followup of casting shade on Datisi for criticizing it, then denying you were casting shade, then casting more shade. That's the behavior that really set me off. It seems like you're just ignoring that point altogether and sticking to "Umlaut said I was suspicious for something even though he said it wasn't that bad" as if that was the sole basis for my vote.

[Umlaut]

Experience tells me if I try to declare "I'M GOING TO CATCH UP" I'll just get overwhelmed with the amount of up-catchery to do and end up putting it off longer so I'm going to just read at random and comment on isolated things as I see them

[Umlaut]

If I'm about to get elimmed I will. Not sure if I am or not right now.

[Umlaut]

I mean, I'll vote him out of better-him-than-me if it comes down to it but it seems like just picking the easiest target.

Why are you dead-set on OWer?

[Umlaut]

Liking a lot what Andres is doing on this page (though if he's talking about me then tbf I'm not "voting outside" anything until I'm voting)

[Umlaut]

I was going over the votes on my wagon and I'm confused about Infinity in particular, because of posts like

UNVOTE:
VOTE: umlaut

Don't feel the best about this, but alright

that imply they aren't really sure about me, and earlier asking to be talked into voting me, but then consistently listing me as a top scumread to the point of basing their opinion of their Ico wagon on the fact I'm on it.

Infinity, when did I go from "I guess I could vote him if that's what we're doing" to a serious suspect in your estimation?

[Umlaut]

umlaut why aren't you voting anyone

Not keen on the OutworldER wagon and didn't see a serious alternative (other than myself, which I'm also not so keen on)

I still don't, but on a hunch I'm going to
VOTE: Infinity

They've established a pattern, with Llama and with me, of quietly supporting wagons while inviting others to take responsibility for them, and I don't like it. Want to get more attention on this.

[Umlaut]

Like, I may just be biased on that Infinity read because he's defending me but I also don't think scum sticks their neck out for me, the only person who did that in a game I was LHF in was Koba and Koba is Koba.

Do you mean for

you

in particular, or for any townie going down? Because if the former I don't know about that (why would you be special in that regard?) but if the latter then I just disagree.

[Umlaut]

I'm going to give up on trying to read Anya until we have some flips and in the meantime just enjoy her posts.

pedit: The former. Again, maybe my own perception of things colors it a bit but I've always gotten the feeling (especially after 2185) that scum see me more as an easy target than an asset.

I consider it pretty well-known that town will look for scum on the wagons of "easy targets" and so scum are just as likely to push against those targets as for them, particularly if they aren't feeling like they're in danger of elimination themselves (which they shouldn't be if we're both town right now).

Pedit:

I've avoided interacting with anything just because I was just completely zoinked out of mafia. The past few days of this game from my end have been seeing the thread in my subscriptions, saying "I don't feel like dealing with this right now" and then fucking off. I considered taking V/LA or something but I didn't want to do that for a bullshit reason so I just stayed in.

This is relatable, tbh

[Umlaut]

Zero chance Icon is limmed today

Umlaut and Outworld are good leads, let’s focus on them

both wagons look like shit
no

umlaut is maybe a fine wagon but the problem is i dont scumread him
at worst hes null

i hopped off ow because llama made good points and i didnt feel comfortable joining hands with my two weakest townleans
and of course the umlaut wagon has icon

These posts back to back really don't look like scum to me. I don't see scum saying "this wagon is shit" and then immediately saying "actually it's a fine wagon maybe" and in the same sentence saying "I don't scumread him" because scum are worried about

projecting an image

and this is clearly just stream-of-consciousness without regard for what image is presented.

[Umlaut]

See ya Fox, sorry it's been so rough on you.

Welcome Koto, looking forward to your thoughts.

Umlaut has been kinda towny recently, and I don't think he's particularly viable

If another wagon pops up I'll have to make a decision, but right now doesn't seem like the time to have my vote doing nothing on, like, you

This is a weird take, I think last I checked I was still a leading wagon so not sure where the "not viable" is coming from here.

[Umlaut]

Welcome S_S, I thought your predecessor was pretty town so I feel good about you too. Looking forward to your thoughts.

[Umlaut]

I guess if Gypyx still thinks I'm at 4 votes then I don't feel so dumb for being confused about that myself.

[Umlaut]

Also Momrangal should be Koto

[Umlaut]

Anyway, I think my big takeaway from a quick read is OW is town. VT claim in this situation to me is a massive towntell, its not like there is no other wagon that things can shift off to. Its almost strong enough that if OW is scum, I think it forces Umulat to be scum because that would have probably been where all the attention went (note that only works one way, OW-town or Umulat-scum by itself doesnt massively impact the other). Unless site meta has massively shifted, a D1 PR claim unless it really makes no sense, gets countered, etc tends to live... VT not so much. So yeah, defense mode on OW activated based on the classic tells.

I wrote a whole thing here about why I'm not sure I agree claiming VT is the massive towntell you seem to think it is but then realized I don't care since there's really no reason to scumread OW anyway.

Spoiler:

VOTE: outworlder

if someone hammers without a claim they should get instalynched tomorrow

last mini normal I played mafia hammered a neighborizer before they could claim, cause they were inactive like outworlder/umlaut

This bothers me (emphasis mine). This *really* bothers me because of the implications of it all. There is a difference between saying "no one hammer without a claim" and "no one hammer or they get ran up tomorrow". The second part, which Samantha decided to use here, includes a direct implication that OW is town, which is a very odd one to make as that flies in the face of their reads. Samantha is approaching OW from two different midsets. The first is that OW is scum and needs to go today. The second one is anyone who hammers without a claim is scum, unless you believe that she is seriously suggesting that if someone hammers without a claim that they are scum regardless of what OW flips. The natural mindset is "that was risky, but lets see what happens" if someone hammers a scumread with no claim. Not "you did X that automatically means Y". Because if OW is scum... hammering without a claim wouldnt be a scumtell unless Samantha is seriously suggesting scum would just hammer a partner without letting them claim.

Vote Samantha

Lets see what type of last minute push we can make.

I can maybe buy this but I'd like to see how Samantha responds to it.

Meanwhile:

I got my towncred from anya for unvoting, now it's time to be survivalistic again

Maybe I'm confbiasing but this joke feels calculated to me, especially coming after Anya's 1598

[Umlaut]

Decided to take a closer look at Rathe because of Luca's suggestion and realized I have no idea what his opinion is of anything right now.

Rathe, what wagons do you like/dislike and why?

[Umlaut]

Samantha, no response to Llama?

[Umlaut]

Llama's point sucked tbf

Sometimes how a player responds to an accusation turns out to be more important than the accusation itself. I was kind of hoping to see Sam's own response before anyone else picked it apart.

[Umlaut]

Rathe, what wagons do you like/dislike and why?

i am actually kinda tired of the back n forth

This is... not an answer

[Umlaut]

Sometimes how a player responds to an accusation turns out to be more important than the accusation itself. I was kind of hoping to see Sam's own response before anyone else picked it apart.

my response was right below it

You mean 1593?

This is... not an answer

u can ask me specific questions about someone u wanna know about

Do you think Andresvmb is scum?
Do you think OutWorldER is scum?
Do you think I'm scum?
Do you think LlamaFluff is scum?
Do you think Iconeum is scum?
Do you think Datisi is scum?
Do you think Anya is scum?
Do you think Luca Blight is scum?
Do you think Something_Smart is scum?
Do you think samantha97 is scum?
Do you think Infinity 324 is scum?
Do you think Koto is scum?

[Umlaut]

I really hate this wagon and am not interested in a Llama elim

[Umlaut]

Umlaut

Thoughts on me/Datisi/Icon?

Town, idk, idk

[Umlaut]

Infinity still my top choice. Could also do Rathe if there's support for that.

[Umlaut]

maybe we blitz rathe, learn absolutely nothing from it, and continue this shouting match on day 2

Sounds good to me.
VOTE: Rathe

[Umlaut]

Not thrilled with Koto either, I don't mind goofing off on entrance but I think he's overdone it at this point

[Umlaut]

I have very few reads I feel strongly about but I'm at something like

Don't want to elim:

S_S, Luca, Llama, Andres, Anya

Could possibly elim:

Icon, Datisi, Samantha, maybe OW in a pinch

Happy to elim:

Koto, Rathe, Infinity

[Umlaut]

VOTE: Infinity

[Umlaut]

I'm counting 4 on Infinity, 5 on Llama, at most 2 on anyone else

[Umlaut]

Also I ISO’ed Samantha - Samantha is like, bleeding Town.

Sell me this, because I think you're town and Samantha is an enigma to me.

[Umlaut]

Infinity's probably town here, same with Andres. Ico also probably town.
Samantha is my only real egregious SR. Everyone else hasn't done anything I find particularly egregious, so scum is probably in deep. Keep an eye on Datisi, modding 2195 taught me he can deepwolf fairly well.

so you agree with me totally except my opinion of you and I end up as an "egregious SR"


this is the first time that I can remember you even suggesting someone besides me was mafia, and even the datisi comment was a half-hearted "keep an eye on him"

I really don't have any other alternatives other than Samantha, I think scum are deepwolfing hard this game (or I'm just blind) which is why I'm not actually opposed to your Datisi flash-wagon idea even though I think Datisi's probably town here?

"not opposed to flash wagoning someone I think is town, but suggested was mafia the post before this" is an interesting take

Samantha's early posting is just bad and while she's had some decent posts since then she flip-flops between giving sorta detailed posts and just throwing random shade at people for no real discernable reason.

I know that you can't relate to this, but when you don't know who the mafia are you have to extract that information from people

They SR you and me simultaneously and never elaborated on it and it's a conclusion I'm not sure how town would be able to come to? Like I want them to actually explain that because I feel if they don't a lot of accountability will be lost going into D2.

if you truly wanted to know this you'd have asked about it when I said it; you didn't because you don't care about learning who mafia are

Like read this post and tell me it isn’t Town. I don’t know if Samantha is correct, mind you. But their take is so on point.

I'm just not seeing in this post what you are, I guess. It's a decent take but not one that looks beyond scum to make.

Not thrilled with Koto either, I don't mind goofing off on entrance but I think he's overdone it at this point

i liked your Rathe vote and then you make a bullshit post like this one and i am reminded why i wanna yeet you

Why is this bullshit? It's not about roleplaying in itself, it's about roleplaying as a substitute for playing Mafia.

[Umlaut]

But I think that you are either correct, or are Scum.

What exactly do you think would be different if they're both town?

I think Llama would have reacted differently to Infinity’s constant probing and skepticism. Perhaps more engaging of the other’s viewpoint, or trying to dissuade them.

How would town-Llama's behavior be affected by the color of Infinity's role PM? It's not like he would know it...

S_S asking all the good questions before I can, rude.

[Umlaut]

Unofficial VC according to me
----
Infinity 324 (5): Andresvmb, Datisi, Luca Blight, Umlaut, Iconeum
Llamafluff (3): Koto, Rathe, Anya
Rathe (2): Infinity 324, Llamafluff
samantha97 (1): OutworldER
Koto (1): samantha97

Not Voting (1): Something_Smart


I really hate S_S' stance of refusing to vote or even express any kind of preference for one wagon over another but if he hasn't been talked out of it by now I don't think I can argue him out of it either.

Samantha is not happening today. OW, you really need to pick out of the actually-viable wagons.

I'm happy to join in on Rathe if the numbers are there.

[Umlaut]

i think rathe is gonna happen today and it's gonna be the dumbest fucking wagon ever but what can you do

What you can do is argue against it, if you don't like it?

[Umlaut]

I'm counting Rathe at 5, Infinity and OW both at 3, Llama at 2.

VOTE: Rathe
That's -1

[Umlaut]

anyone else concerned at how rathe has like 10+ people who voted him and there are 3 mafia

It's actually possible for mafia to vote for mafia.

It would be interesting to see who jumped

off

the wagon and why if this flips red.

[Umlaut]

I actually am tempted to vote rathe for their near omnipresence coupled with low activity, especially cause they aren't posting now

and 2 people who came up mafia from meta reading are against it

the downside is I wouldn't get nightkilled, which is my fondest wish

Why would this mean you wouldn't get nightkilled?

[Umlaut]

Hi Rathe, you should claim ASAP

[Umlaut]

Pretty sure it was a real hammer.

Would have been nice to talk about the claim for five minutes beforehand but we'll see what happens

[Umlaut]

rathe: Infinity 324, Llamafluff, Something_Smart, OutworldER, Luca Blight, Anya, Umlaut

Not only is this wrong but it doesn't include your own vote.

[Umlaut]

something happened earlier that actually makes perfect sense with there being a loyal mailman

Is there a reason not to say what 'something' is if you're going to say this much?

[Umlaut]

Fwiw I don't think that in 100 years I as scum would fasthammer a PR claim like that (particularly not a really weak PR) unless I were doomed to eventual elimination anyway; nor would I regard Samantha as having been doomed.

[Umlaut]

We don't know whether it's a weak PR.

That's true but not really the point. A PR that has a strong chance of being weak.

[Umlaut]

You are a

Town Odd-Night Combined Neighborizer Rolestopper

.

When did roles get so damn complicated, I swear

I disagree the Rathe wagon was terrible (full disclosure of bias since I was on it), it was a reasonable compromise given town couldn't pull it together on anyone else. That hammer within minutes of the claim was ridiculous though, and agreed there's almost certainly scum on there.

If people want to SR me for the andres kill, I think that's reasonable

I accept your offer!

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Umlaut]

I'm trying to put together a list of day 1 vote progressions rn and holy hell does Anya change her vote a lot

[Umlaut]

Koto are you planning to actually play the game at some point?

[Umlaut]

I'm around, trying to catch up

[Umlaut]

And then she unvotes to act all innocent, but clearly she knew that was the hammer

I'll unvote I guess just in case that wasn't it UNVOTE:

but ya I think these kind of enabler roles are usually given to mafia

This is a good catch, there was no ambiguity about Samantha's vote being a hammer so why make a "just in case" unvote after? Just in case of what? If you didn't want to hammer you wouldn't have voted.

I feel like the discussion of this event is kind of equivocating between "it is/isn't pro-town to hammer at some point after that claim" and "it is/isn't pro-town to hammer

instantly

after that claim." It's the latter thing that bothers me.

it was deliberately fast since I knew people would unvote

This is, like, the opposite of a good reason.

If enabler was truly a scum claim then there would be no need to quickhammer, as he would be getting limmed regardless once she pointed that out

I can imagine someone with a big enough ego thinking "I need to just hammer before those

idiots

unvote because they will no matter what I say," though Samantha doesn't strike me as that kind of player in general.

[Umlaut]

Icon looking much townier to me today in the conversation with Datisi, Datisi looking good too though I have no idea how they come up with an Infinity-Umlaut team and really need that one spelled out for me

[Umlaut]

Considering how hard Luca argued the point that Samantha is scum I kind of assumed he was voting her until I saw the VC in 2711. Luca, why Anya over Samantha?

[Umlaut]

if infinity!scum, partners are {outworld, anya, llama}, with {luca/samantha/mmmaybe umlaut} being "in case of emergency, break glass" partners

umlaut i'm not sure how you can read this post and think "this is datisi coming up with an infinity/umlaut team" when i list like 5 people as her partner before you lmfao

Okay so maybe that was more Icon with 2692 and I just assumed he was responding to an idea you had advanced

[Umlaut]

I don't know if this is useful but I spent a whole bunch of time putting it together so I'll be damned if I don't post it:

Day 1 vote progressions

• Andresvmb

  :
  Datisi (55) → samantha97 (373) → Luca Blight (741) → Iconeum (1211) → OutWorldER (1232) → Infinity 324 (1445)
  
  
  OutWorldER:
  Anya (47) →
  Rathe
  (176) → samantha97 (607) → Datisi (1328) → samantha97 (1466) → Umlaut (1475) → esotericzoomer (1485) → samantha97 (1597) →
  Rathe
  (2130)
  
  
  Umlaut:
  samantha97 (45) → Iconeum (366) → Infinity 324 (1291) →
  Rathe
  (1870) → Infinity 324 (1884) →
  Rathe
  (2157)
  
  
  LlamaFluff:
  Anya (54) → unvote (180) → Iconeum (361) → unvote (837) → samantha97 (1592) →
  Rathe
  (2075)
  
  
  Iconeum:
  Datisi (7) → Anya (19) →
  Rathe
  (214) → Umlaut (415) →
  Andresvmb
  (748) → Umlaut (803) → Luca Blight (1351) → esotericzoomer (1418) → Infinity 324 (1691) → LlamaFluff (1770) → Infinity 324 (1932)
  
  
  Datisi:
  Luca Blight (12) → samantha97 (42) → Umlaut (434) → OutWorldER (1233) → Infinity 324 (1392) → esotericzoomer (1420) → OutWorldER (1560) → Infinity 324 (1566) → LlamaFluff (1769) → Infinity 324 (1881) →
  Rathe
  (2135) → OutWorldER (2140) →
  Rathe
  (2143) → OutWorldER (2149)
  
  
  Anya:
  Datisi (17) → Anya (24) → Luca Blight (28) → OutWorldER (31) → Luca Blight (49) → LlamaFluff (105) → Luca Blight (139) → Infinity 324 (157) → Momrangal (162) → Iconeum (277) → samantha97 (291) → Luca Blight (299) → samantha97 (313) → OutWorldER (334) → Iconeum (380) → OutWorldER (405) → Datisi (604) → OutWorldER (642) → OutWorldER (654) → Umlaut (822) → Umlaut (1110) → Luca Blight (1143) → esotericzoomer (1190) →
  Rathe
  (1196) → OutWorldER (1280) →
  Rathe
  (1289) → Infinity 324 (1295) → esotericzoomer (1477) → Infinity 324 (1562) → LlamaFluff (1793) →
  Rathe
  (2154)
  
  
  Luca Blight:
  Datisi (6) → OutWorldER (198) → Datisi (1326) → LlamaFluff (1768) → Infinity 324 (1883) →
  Rathe
  (2131) → OutWorldER (2138)
  
  
  esotericzoomer / Something_Smart:
  Infinity 324 (140) → Iconeum (370) → OutWorldER (543) → Iconeum (914) → OutWorldER (933) →
  Rathe
  (2083)
  
  
  samantha97:
  Datisi (26) →
  Rathe
  (235) → Iconeum (371) → OutWorldER (570) → Datisi (1513) → Koto (2076) → OutWorldER (2147) →
  Rathe
  (2147)
  
  
  Infinity 324:
  Luca Blight (48) → LlamaFluff (93) → Luca Blight (147) → samantha97 (312) → Umlaut (496) → LlamaFluff (661) → Umlaut (937) → esotericzoomer (1492) → unvote (1586) → Datisi (1604) → LlamaFluff (1822) →
  Rathe
  (2072)
  
  
  Rathe

  :
  LlamaFluff (90) → samantha97 (357) → Umlaut (948) → LlamaFluff (1787)
  
  
  Momrangal / Koto:
  Datisi (13) →
  Andresvmb
  (71) → Umlaut (78) → Datisi (893) → Umlaut (904) → LlamaFluff (1778) → unvote (2122) → LlamaFluff (2123)

[Umlaut]

1. Looking at Datisi's end-of-day behavior jumping between the wagons I'm fairly confident he's town who genuinely just wanted to cooperate on getting a launch through; on the off-chance he's not, OW is
   definitely
   town
   
2. What in the world was Anya even doing
   
3. It's not a list without three things

[Umlaut]

I kind of want to believe the claim but I also want to see what Llama has to say about it. I don't see why we're saying if Llama is town mailman we would then yeet Anya? It seems like that verifies the claim is legit. Yes she could in principle be scum Traffic Analyst but how is Llama's actual alignment evidence one way or the other for that?

That hammer was awful regardless, "I can get away with it because I'm a PR" is not a sufficient reason to make such an anti-town play.

[Umlaut]

Check out Samantha trying to avoid resolving between Anya/Llama though

[Umlaut]

I thought I saw something like that, let me find it...

3096, you said "maybe he's the mailman and anya is scum and everything is fine in this town" which I took as meaning that if he's the mailman that implies Anya is scum.

[Umlaut]

Check out Samantha trying to avoid resolving between Anya/Llama though

we don't have to because your team will resolve it for us

if anya is town we'd just be giving you your dream situation by lynching her

if she's mafia poe will crush you guys anyway

I mean sure, if I were scum and Anya were town I'd probably want her launched, but it's not obvious to me that scum would resolve it if we don't do that. If I were scum I'd be just as likely to keep her around and then say in lylo "Anya is still around, that's suspicious" (or just wait for someone else to say it), especially if we're not launching Llama either so can't even confirm she's giving good results.

[Umlaut]

s_s is scum with anya and there is a rolecop on their team and they copped infinity night 1 and knew if she claimed people would unvote and move onto anya so anya quickhammered, and now s_s is assuming anya knew infinity would claim a power role and not get yeeted because of the fact that well, she did know that, even though there's little ground to assume that right now, speaking from the thread's pov / current discussion, and is trying to cover it up by crying "scum rolecop is a thing that exists"

I can... almost believe this

(Doesn't have to be he's scum with Anya, just the idea that his post was predicated on there being a rolecop without his explicitly saying so because he thought of it as "known")

I thought Zoomer was pretty obvtown though, have to think about how much weight to put on that long-term.

[Umlaut]

wake up sheeple

[Umlaut]

For the record, I really hate "everyone stop playing the game until this one thing happens" dicta like this. Don't respond to my question is one thing, don't talk about anything is completely different.

[Umlaut]

Llama, why can't you just say whether you're a traffic analyst positive or not? (Keeping in mind that a disabled mailman is not a traffic analyst positive)

so far we have umlaut and llama refusing to claim

I wonder if that's scared mafia

When was I ever supposed to claim?

[Umlaut]

Not choosing between Llama and Anya today is honestly a terrible idea.

I was going to wait for Llama to answer me but
VOTE: Anya
in the interest of not going sideways

[Umlaut]

Why are we asking about fruit?

I didn't get one.

[Umlaut]

That's kind of town, actually. If you're scum I don't see why you'd bother with that gambit when you know it's not going anywhere, given you're trying to get me lunched.

[Umlaut]

I kind of want Llama to fullclaim too but realistically I'm pretty much voting Anya today unless that claim is singularly awful, so I don't think it matters that much.

[Umlaut]

why are you saying maybe instead of definitely

because he might just be the town mailman

This isn't true, btw:

@mod Would a Mailman still give a positive result to a TA if the Mailman Enabler is dead?

no, as the mailman cannot talk privately anymore

If Llama really is a traffic analyst positive it's not because he's a mailman.

[Umlaut]

Yesterday for some reason that I am going to depending on what happens the next few days hold I may or may not be borderline toxic over... Anya decided to lie about her result yesterday. I have no topic which is why I was just trying to deflect everything and push it to today because I knew she was lying. It either meant that she was scum (which I figured) and was trying to cut down the player that would suddenly be confirmed town with her flip. I am VT, so knew her claim was a complete lie. There most likely scenario was she was scum and trying to kick me out before her, so the best play in response was to hard call that bluff and send her home regardless. The only way it at all ends up in a bad scenario is that if you all go for her first, and she was town lying about a result.

Yeah no.

VOTE: LlamaFluff

There's no need for massclaim now, it's not changing what we do today.

[Umlaut]

There's no consensus for a massclaim, Koto and Sam have already said they're not doing it. I'm not volunteering to go first for something that isn't actually happening.

[Umlaut]

What is there even to fakeclaim? It's either Mailman or not unless someone actually thinks there's more town power than what's already flipped.

[Umlaut]

Like I guess there could be a Voyeur or some crap role like that but if I'm scum do you really think I'm dense enough to think a claim like that would save me?

[Umlaut]

No one wants to or is going to say anything but no one wants to hammer either, cool cool

[Umlaut]

Good morning everyone, I'm a VT.

Don't have a solve yet, don't even have one definite TR (Datisi probable TR though); working on it

[Umlaut]

Haven't really thought about this today, but the fact I haven't been hammered kind of narrows it down here.

VOTE: Samantha

If this is wrong we lose anyway, but I'm pretty sure it's right just by PoE. Partner is either Icon or Outworld; I'm not as convinced as everyone else that the claim makes Icon town and I really don't understand the case that the role is even town-indicative. Also:

If Ico's scum mailman I feel like we already lost so I'm just kinda assuming his claim is conftown.

Why have we already lost if Ico is scum mailman? We just vote him and he gets eliminated like anyone else. Why do you think this?

[Umlaut]

UNVOTE:

[Umlaut]

Haven't really thought about this today, but the fact I haven't been hammered kind of narrows it down here.

VOTE: Samantha

If this is wrong we lose anyway, but I'm pretty sure it's right just by PoE. Partner is either Icon or Outworld; I'm not as convinced as everyone else that the claim makes Icon town and I really don't understand the case that the role is even town-indicative. Also:

If Ico's scum mailman I feel like we already lost so I'm just kinda assuming his claim is conftown.

Why have we already lost if Ico is scum mailman? We just vote him and he gets eliminated like anyone else. Why do you think this?

how does anything get narrowed down? what's the conclusion you make then?

and did you see my crumbs?
why unvote immediately? (i don't think we should be voting yet, just wanna know the reason)

I don't even understand the first question

I didn't see your crumbs, I have pretty much never noticed a crumb in my life as far as I can recall

I unvoted on the outside chance it's you/Outworld, I thought I saw the two of you posting in reasonably quick succession sometime after Sam's vote but I must have hallucinated it.

I mean the case is just 3158 and 3229

i understand your feeling on the first one but i'm gonna need an elaboration on the second one

why would you vote one half of a 1v1 because the other half is refusing to do something you want?

especially since it's not really a 1v1, and the question llama is refusing to answer is extremely pertinent to this (and llama is actively hindering our ability to understand the gamestate by not answering it), but umlaut is nevertheless treating it like it is, and somehow not trying to punish llama for preventing us from understanding what's going on.

umlaut, why did you never respond to this?

What should I have said to it? I'm not in general interested in how people read me unless I can get a read on them from it (or we're going to lose the game over it, which... maybe we are now, but it didn't seem like it on day 3), and I felt like S_S was likely town.

I voted Anya over Llama because I thought she was scum, I don't feel like it needs more explanation than that. I thought Llama refusing to answer the question was annoying and unhelpful but I didn't think it was scummy.

[Umlaut]

VOTE: Samantha

I still can't totally rule out OW/Icon but honestly Sam seems more likely scum anyway, like I think she thought I was just going to get fastyeeted today and she didn't have to do anything

[Umlaut]

Posting so I don't get replaced. Honestly I probably deserve to get yeeted with how I've played this game and I don't expect to turn this around. VC says the team is exactly Samantha/OW (or Icon just hasn't tuned in to hammer for even a second), but honestly OW never seemed scummy to me so well played

[Umlaut]

I honestly can't handle hyperposting games and end up zoning out and not doing anything, and that's when I'm town.

[Umlaut]

I think the bigger reason people treated the mailman as town was because Godfather was made explicitly non-normal years ago so why would a GF-equal be allowed.

I don't even think it's really a GF-equal? A Mafia Mailman still investigates as a positive to the Traffic Analyst, they just have an excuse (and in this game Icon didn't even have that, he could have been ID'd by Anya as early as Night 1 since we offed the Enabler). It's not nearly as strongly GF-analogous as, say, a Mafia Doctor vs. a Gunsmith, which is certainly considered normal.

I actually think it's good and healthy for normal setups to play with meta assumptions. A lot of the town made a bad assumption here.