TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

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viewtopic.php?p=12547307#p12547307

I told her this is the post where I explain why I don’t like math this game

And told her to read his ISO from here:

viewtopic.php?p=12544703#p12544703

And she came back about half an hour later or something to say (paraphrased) “yes, this looks like math scum to me, I endorse his elim”

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Was whether maria had read the game or not the thing you wanted to ask me @auro?

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I’m not sure any of my team are gonna read the entire game, it’s more like I’m asking them to check on whether I’m confbiased at certain points or what they think we should do strategy wise after new info (hence lld’s points on maintaining a degree of suspicion on joqiza if we flip 3 town in a row now, or on always flipping shirou first if we go for his autowin plan)

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But we could talk about it now!

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Carpe diem. Seize the day, Auro! Make your life extraordinary!

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I have watched all of it twice and some episodes considerably more than that

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god fucking damn it why did the imgflip hack stop working

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do we have someone here on datisi!team who can get him to tell me how to link imgflip images again

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Also, doesn't a Lilith/Shirou scumteam makes super sense?

not really

shirou/chenn or shirou/AL makes much more sense

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If everyone unanimously agree to:

1) Not say a single word in D3/D4 and just place their votes

2) ignore anyone that doesn't place the correct votes in D3/D4 and continuously only say/quote "vote correctly" as a reply to every post someone out of the voting block makes. No discussion whatsoever.

I will seriously consider this

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lol why isn't infinity scum @auro?

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didn't u think math was scum at EoD yesterday shirou

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I reconsidered with how Johnny insisted on DK being obvtown

why doesn't Johnny call his most townread partner obvtown?

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it's not really PoE,

yeh but trying to use more words made the meme less funny so

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I think we either try to solve this game via reads or via mechanics and not some weird bastard hybrid of the two

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I reconsidered with how Johnny insisted on DK being obvtown

why doesn't Johnny call his most townread partner obvtown?

I don't think that's the kind of bold play scum!Johnny does. If it was another player I could see it more easily.

Johnny which seemed to want to be low-key/under the radar?

No, I don't think so, DK didn't really need that extra defense.

why is that bold? at the time when he was saying it Koba was a UTR for basically everyone

it's not bold to just sheep thread consensus esp. when that just further secures your buddy/avoids you standing out from the crowd

and then at EoD he was making a lot of effort to WIFOM his slot's relationship with, specifically, my slot and math!slot

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I'm kind of wanting to elim you progressively more as a safety measure because the way you're playing today is increasing my paranoia about you being scum with any of (chennis, AL, math)

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because I still think the two most obviously correct elims today are (AL, math) and your positioning today is strongly avoiding that

which is not to say this can't be town!you reaching a divergent conclusion. but it's not helping me feel good about you, especially given your reversal on math!slot and that you don't seem as eager to lay down your life for you mech!win plan as you claimed to be yesterday

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and then at EoD he was making a lot of effort to WIFOM his slot's relationship with, specifically, my slot and math!slot

If you're town why do you think he wasn't trying to misassociate himself with town!Math as well?

he was?

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oh, wait, I misunderstood what you were saying

idk, that possibility did cross my mind but then I decided that probably the best thing to do was to ignore everything he posted from after her was pretty locked in as the elim

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I mean, I'm not wedded to the idea yet

if we did, you'd want auto->flopz the next two days, yes?

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okay, I gotta run but I'll think about things

also, yeah, I thought you'd say that -- I do think from a neutral pov I make a lot of sense as buddies with scum!auro

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I still think the game is most likely to end with a math flip tho

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I would still prefer to do shirou->auro->flopz if we do the BoP on shirou thing

I am considering the proposition to do auro->shirou->flopz if shirou swears up and down today that they are scumclaiming tomorrow if they don’t self-vote after being wrong on auro

I want them to affirm this utterly so that if we do auro and game doesn’t end, even if shirou wins a 1v1 with me tomorrow (which is what shirou will be forced to do tomorrow if scum after swearing that btw) there is an infinitesimally small chance that they live the day after winning a 1v1 with me and basically 0 chance that they live to lylo

I also want, before doing this, for lilith and joqiza to promise me that in any event that auro flips town, that they vote shirou tomorrow, but beyond that — that if they get talked round, if I ever get flipped then shirou dies the next day, no exceptions, even if it ~feels wrong~ or they don’t think he’s scum

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Shirou, i want a post which doesn’t have anything in it other than “if I’m wrong on auro and I don’t self-vote on D3 or I otherwise resist my elim in any way, shape, or form, I am scumclaiming

If I try to shade mena for wanting me dead as I *promised* I would be okay with after auro!elim, I am scumclaiming

Do not listen to what I say on D3, listen to what I’m saying now on D2, I should be elimmed on D3”

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Give me that now and I vote auro before the blitz tournament I’m playing in with my friends

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You have like 10 mins to give me that post if you’re serious about wanting to wrap up auro!lim today because my tournament starts in 15

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Gotta say, I think it’s a real bad look that you haven’t instantly made that post if you’re serious and this isn’t a bluff/posturing

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VOTE: auro

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I reiterate again for those at the back: of the game doesn’t end with this and shirou tries in any way (even with that corollary he added) to resist his elim tomorrow, he’s scum

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That’s particularly @chennis @lili @joqiza

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And if auro flips town and you don’t vote shirou tomorrow then it’s a hard throw

I’m actually leaning shirou to be scum for the fact he felt the need to add a corollary but I’m hoping that if I force him to 1v1 me tomorrow then even if he wins that you won’t be able to ignore two slots in a row dying where the evidence will 100% be shirou!scum

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What do you mean, no

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If this is the deal, anyone resisting it within the townbloc is also scum if there’s only one person resisting it

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I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

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If you have a slot going “I will self vote tomorrow if I’m wrong” and then they don’t do that, you’re throwing if you don’t elim them

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But there is a strong, strong scum incentive to try and avoid doing the thing you said you would do if scum

And likewise, a buddy has to support that

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I strongly predict that (shirou, chenn) is the exact team and it makes a lot of sense with the way that shirou entered and made a big deal of being good at reading chenn and then inserted him into the townbloc solve thing

yes we three way bussed at the beginning and middle of d1

Yes

This is entirely plausible and shirou has done similar shit before

In our very first game together he and another scumbuddy both fakeclaimed cop where the claim meant one had to be scum

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I'm still confident mena is scum

This’ll be interesting to discuss later

Anyway, blitz tournament, bye!

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VOTE: shirou

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@Mena What makes you confident we'll have enough support for the shirou elim? Even if I go along with it, and math and you will presumably vote there, and he'll self vote, but others didn't seem particularly interested in taking the deal

I need mena to answer this too.

I think that at least (joqiza, lili) are town who wouldn't throw if a deal like that has been done

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and I absolutely think it would be throwing to vote out auro if it's not followed by shirou

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well, thought*

now I'm thinking that shirou!scum is the most likely thing here and it's shirou + (chenn, AL) --> if it's you, that fits a lot with your play in relation to Johnny yesterday and your attempt to reverse on me today lol

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I really hate being miselimed, but I think joqiza/lilith/mena are obvtown enough that we should be able to find one more town and win. So I'm not gonna fight this too much

Going over my scumgame with flopz, he'd had to have improved a

lot

to be scum here. I've also been liking auro's posts lately, for most of this game he's been in his own lane and not really concerned about anyone else, in a way that feels genuine. Where I'm at now is something like

{lilith, mena, joqiza}
{math, flopz, auro}
{chenn}
{shirou}

Link to flopz scumgame, starting from where the memes stop viewtopic.php?p=12203352&user_select%5B ... #p12203352

I would like to hear more specifically Math/AL opinions on me, since I'm trying to hardblock your relatively very easy miseliminations if you're town.

I don't think this is clearing for you at all, in fact I think you're just saving our elims for later. Instead of re-evaluating the bloc, people like joqi will want to elim me/math already.

I was very sure the team was mena/shirou and I was writing up a case, this day phase has made that less likely though, so I'll have to think about things.

I'm not taking this deal, I have to reconsider my reads. Mena playing this way makes no sense if he's a shirou partner, and I'm still confident mena is scum. Auro doesn't look like scum at all to me, he looks like resigned town. Fighting your elim is hard and unpleasant, and I don't think auro is in the state of mind to want to do that.

Of course, it could still be lilith/shirou or something but idk. I'm gonna post the mena part of my case and talk to people.

@Mena What makes you confident we'll have enough support for the shirou elim? Even if I go along with it, and math and you will presumably vote there, and he'll self vote, but others didn't seem particularly interested in taking the deal.

I don't want the day to end before I post my case on mena at least.

I'm really looking forward to this one infinity!

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ehh, actually

VOTE: infinity

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this is the more correct thing to do although shirou is probably the partner

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btw I absolutely will take an elim me today deal with no takebacksies or caveats if I get to dictate that the following two elims are infinity -> shirou, and that if shirou does flip town in that chain that they get listened to for the lylo vote

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@joqiza @lili I would like to know where your heads are both at tho

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also, guess who came second in his blitz tournament? hype!

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Excellent question Lili!

Also, shirou, sorry, I’m really tired rn so I’m gonna eat and go to sleep, I don’t think this is just paranoia I think there’s some really concerning stuff about how you’ve played that we can get into tomorrow. I’ll also have another think about your posts just above once I’ve slept

Happy birthday though!

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idk what that is but congrats

Chess played on a 5 minute timer, and thanks! (Only with irl friends tho, it wasn’t like a super strong group or ransoms etc)

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Idk, sort of?

This is the opposite sort of problem of some games where I can’t find enough scum, in this one I have too many

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Like I think math is a bad slot here but shirou’s play seems more scummy and it makes a lot more sense to me in terms of a “trying to win the game” agenda

Esp with infinity or chenn

And infinity still has associatives with johnny, still has the original reasons i was scumreading him, and most recently has this very lol progression on my slot which I think can be explained very easily by him having a scum wincon and feeling a need to

That *probably* means that there is scum in (shirou, auro, flopz) but it seems smarter and safer to just elim infinity today

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Take a look at mena's read progressions today while I write my case.

This might be a persuasive argument but for one particular thing

That being; the reason you gave for reversing on me yesterday was the only reason that made sense for town!you to reverse on me imo— that you’d had a realisation about how who I am as a person meant I wouldn’t play that way, and that’s the reason you gave for reversing your read

If you’d gone “oh actually Mena is now playing v protown, I think I made a mistake” it would have seemed less persuasive I think, but it also wouldn’t have dug you into the hole you’re now in

The hole you’re now in being that, unless you think who I am as a person/your entire mental model of me as a player and what I would/wouldn’t do as either alignment has changed over night (and there’s nothing that’s happened that could plausibly have prompted that) it doesn’t make sense for you to go “oh, weird progressions, mena!scum!” here

Because my progressions or not or whatever had nothing to do with the APPARENTLY SUPER STRONG GIVEN THAT YOU SHIFTED FROM HARD SCUMREADING TO HARD TOWNREADING ME reasons that you gave yesterday

So your reversal here makes no sense unless you were lying about why you flipped your read on me in the first place

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Just Auro, let's flip whoever majority wants today, including me, but let's do Auro tomorrow

I’ll think about this while I sleep

In principle it’s a yes, but I want to add the condition that if auro is town then you’re the D4 elim but you get to choose the D5 elim — however, I kind of think you’re not gonna agree to that which means we’re gonna need to talk tomorrow (rl) but I think we need to do that anyway

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The way you’re trying to force this to obey a really pressured time schedule is reminiscent of every slimy second hand car salesman ever and is really fucking scummy

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@Mena The reason I started scumreading you again isn't read progressions, I think it actually made a lot of sense to play the way you did as scum, I'll explain it in the case.

Okily dokily buddy!

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Again, unless your fundamental view of me as a person has shifted overnight then you were either lying yesterday about your reasons for townreading me yesterday, or you’re making the claim that you have, in fact, shifted the fundamental way you view me as a person (this is basically your only option to argue btw!) but there’s nothing that’s really happened to support you claiming that such a shift has occurred sooooo

Good luck with that I guess?

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Also this is like, every scum ever lmao “I’ll case it later”

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Town generally have no problems summarising in like 4-5 sentences what it is that the other person has done that’s scummy

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But okay, I’ve finished my pasta, I’m going to bed now

Will be around tomorrow

Night all

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Tho after Shirou is all but guaranteeing they'll self-vote if there's a D3

Oh I saw this right as I was leaving

One of the huge glaring problems with shirou is how much effort he’s putting in to avoid doing this D3 and I have very little faith that he actually will

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@Mena The way I view you as a person hasn't changed, how that view makes sense with your actions has changed.

Hokily dokily neighbour

Again, if you’re town, explain it now in 5 sentences

Do it, u won’t

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Okay actually actually good night lol

Infinity is scum claiming if he can’t explain what’s wrong with my slot in like 2 paragraphs or less here without needing to make a big BS case about it

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gg, thanks for modding T-Bone, can we have scum pt pls

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Yeah tbf that was my bad, I’m sorry about that

I’d already said to maria I’d take the slot I think or maybe I was just v excited to rep into the team we had, and was hoping that maybe this game wouldn’t have issues between us

Obviously was a mistake and the blacklist needs to continue

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Idk if u know this or if I’ve mentioned it but to be clear I have no antipathy towards you outside of playing mafia with you and actually quite like you/your posting in the disc areas of the site

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incidentally this game would have been 1000% easier if you’d just agreed to be the lim if you were wrong on both your reads @shirou

Like the only reason I ended up being an obstacle on D2 was bc you were going to so much effort to leave yourself an out or wiggle room and that seemed intensely scummy to me

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You were great fun joqiza! Also meeting súper was really nice, would be happy to see her again

I also liked the setup

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she's "taking a break" and might just be done with forum mafia (also didn't really care for MS deadlines) but i'll be sure to pass your words on to her

Thanks peta, if u don’t mind, tell her I’ll be modding an open soon with mostly 8 day deadlines and probably a somewhat curated playerlist (as in, I’ll be inviting people to play who I think are chill and will have fun together) which she’d be very welcome to join!

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@infinity i found u very frustrating at points this game and hope you won’t engage with me the same way in future, but I don’t think you played badly in an objective sense

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menalque subbing in and immediately being toxic towards me

I strongly object to this characterisation of how I behaved towards you after repping in which was to engage with you as little as possible and only to criticise you when you were shitpushing me/my top TR

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Menalque really deserves MVP though.

Not sure if (hopefully friendly) sarcasm but if not then both thank you but also I disagree and think Shirou is much more deserving of that title

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Actually I gave all of joqiza, chennis, and shirou a 10 in the tiebreaker survey and lilith a 9

I don’t feel like I played very well here and am still a bit embarrassed by some of what happened on D1

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T-Bone sent me a message asking me to try to get along with you after the post where I acknowledged that we don’t get along. I don’t think that can be construed as me being toxic and also I don’t think a mod asking someone to try and tread more carefully around someone than normal qualifies as a warning. But I’m not that interested in litigating this with you in depth, I just felt obliged to point out something that I don’t think is true about how I interacted with you here (at lea at, certainly not initially).

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@mathblade well uh, that’s really nice of you thanks! All credit should also be due to LLD who really helped me feeling confident in it by strongly backing the SR on you once she’d ISO’d

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If you believe that I stepped over the line into trust tell territory you should have brought it up with the mod at the time. If you still feel that it was crossing a line, make a complaint now and we can see what the disciplinary board think of it. I let what infinity said stand in-game because I wanted to be TR, but I have also been toxic as scum when sufficiently worked up so it wasn’t as valid a point as she thought it was.