TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Infinity 324]

However I'm expecting AL to adopt a more aggressive inquisitive style right now after his recognition that something's off and said he'll talk to people to figure it out, but his posts in recent pages seem to be laid-back.

Well given that I'm more unsure, I'm probably going to be less aggressive. I'm also hoping more people will post (johnny, lilith, amph)

[Infinity 324]

ya screenshot all u want ill put it in my sig when im right >.<

Ok but this isn't allowed

[Infinity 324]

look at his post of 156; at tht point i think he waas trying to give too much on a read to say he had a read when he didn't haave anything. In other words tried harder to put words to postings to justify read when nothing existed. and when he dove more into it 174 i don't feel he believes u were scum originally or his interaction screams he is talking to an actual scumread.

Would it help if I said I had the same read as chenn at the time? To me it just reads as a gut read he couldn't articulate that well and I get those kinds of reads all the time

[Infinity 324]

Auro, can you link a scumgame of lilith's that was somewhat similar to this game?

[Infinity 324]

Okay soooooo what do you think people are TRing him for then?

Well lilith is TRing him for going against the flow, I'm TRing him for not trying to look town and mindmelding with me, auro is TRing him from the emotion he displayed in their exchange, idk if anyone else articulated a TR on him.

why is this the better way to approach things? Like I think it’s p noteworthy when someone is diverging in terms of their townreads from what consensus is, and it’s different to when someone diverges from consensus about a scumread. I don’t need to ask chenn about the reads to note that in terms of gamestate.

I just, don't think you would jump from "his reads are different and scum would likely have those reads right now" to "he's scum". Emotionally, I think you'd give more weight to a chenn who's town and right than "if you're right oops I'm sorry"

why do that when if super/koba are town then trying to take control of the gamestate causes a big conflict between you? Like imo it would be much better to wait for info, make sure you’re on the right side of the new info, and then contest for control. Also, there doesn’t seem to be that much uncertainty to me, rightly or wrongly. Like I feel as if super and koba are relatively consensus TRs, with a second tier of lili and auro and maaaaaybe chenn for some, and then the rest of us below that are the mixer of reads

I think scum could try to take control at this point because super seems pretty unsure about stuff, and no one is really listening to koba anyway. I get that you have an opinion about what it would be correct to do as scum, but I don't think you would apply that so confidently to chenn here when maybe he just disagrees with you. Also I feel like me, koba, and chenn are/have been in an uncertain spot where we're re-evaluating reads, super always seems to be re-evaluating, fire hasn't really given many reads. And neither has johnny.

And like re: bad faith... that seems radically different from anything I’ve seen from you before? And also profoundly unhelpful given that I’m not scum?

I didn't really approach lilith/S&M in good faith in PyP, I was confident enough they were scum that I was mostly just trying to get them limmed. Part of that was that she wasn't really posting, but I can link other examples of me just being confident enough in a SR that nothing they can really say will convince me since it's mostly a gut read anyway. I get that it's early to have such a confident read, but something just clicked for me. I'm sorry if you're town, I just...don't think that's the case.

[Infinity 324]

@Autumn, if you're town do this: if not it's ok you don't have to I'm extending an olive branch (kinda) that if you are town here I need you to open up your perspective of a world where both Mena and I are town and for you to solve the game with that mindset. For a moment conf bias yoirself into thinking we are both town and then solve the game for me; who do you think is scum if we both are town?

I think a lot of your solving doesn't feel right but you come across as potentially "towny" when you post doubt about my slot and yes I can see a world where you are town and I'm wrong here so I need you to get on my level and solve it in that mindset for me; it'll help my read on you A LOT

Legit, I was about to write a post saying that I thought you were scum because you were acting so close minded towards me. So I think this is a good start.

chenn/lilith/koba are my most confident TRs. The first person that comes to mind to look at if you're both town is flopz, since he's been kinda fencesitting on this whole thing which would be TvT. I would maybe reconsider chenn too. I also think scum could be taking my side to try to pocket me, and I think fire is the most likely candidate for that.

[Infinity 324]

If you for a minute think i am gonna vote people YOU scumread just because YOU SCUMREAD THEM THEY ARE SO GOOD READS.

This is just a misrep, I don’t think I’ve ever said infinity is a good vote bc I scumread him

I think infinity is a good vote because of the incredibly bad faith he treated my slot in

I think infinity is scummy because

(1) he would be scummy for treating any rep in slot in bad faith from the get go

(2) this is particularly scummy for infinity who has a demonstrable pattern as town of behaving in very good faith

(3) it’s tricky concerning that he would decide to treat my slot in such bad faith given our recent past experiences with each other in JK9++

Even if you remove (3) because you think it’s too personal to me/self-meta-y, I think (2) and (1) are still very compelling

Even if you remove (2) as well, because you don’t trust meta, I still think (1) alone is enough to justify an infinity elimination today because I think acting in bad faith in mafia is one of the strongest indicators there is that someone is scum

I mean yes, I don't deathtunnel often as town, but there are definitely examples of it. And I never deathtunnel as scum. The idea that I would think you're an easy target after being beyond obvtown in when you were pushed on in PyP, and OMGUSing the shit out of people who pushed on you, is pretty nonsense. I think you SR me because you refuse to believe I would make such an awful play as town, without having enough knowledge about me as a player to know.

[Infinity 324]

I will admit that part of why I want infinity dead at this point is that I am very sold on this read and think I won’t be able to move on in the game without receiving confirmation one way or the other

I think it’s much more likely that he flips scum, but if he is town then my continued belief that he’s scum will continue to colour my perception of the game in an inaccurate way and make it much harder for me to actually get to correct SRs

Even if joqiza SRs me, there are at least 3 townies that townread me here, and don't need my flip to re-evaluate, so I don't particularly care about this

[Infinity 324]

Sorry for being bad, I'm glad I got to watch shirou do his thing :D

Would love to play with y'all again

[Infinity 324]

You weren't bad Infinity! You kept your poise under pressure really well and ultimately this contributed a lot to Johnny getting yeeted over you. Given that me and my entire team were hard tunneling you for most of d1, I'm impressed that you were able to maintain your composure the way you did.

Thanks anyway

I think it would been tough to play as messily as I played here as scum, that's part of why I was impressed with koba's play

[Infinity 324]

Tell super I'm sorry for SRing her

[Infinity 324]

you don't gotta apologize just for being wrong in a mafia game

Yeah but I know it upset her

[Infinity 324]

@infinity i found u very frustrating at points this game and hope you won’t engage with me the same way in future, but I don’t think you played badly in an objective sense

Yeah I'll definitely try to improve on that front