TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Thestatusquo]

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Who is Norwee’s partner here, if not Shea?

Ramcius

if you're pocketing me, then you/ramcius

Nancy town reading Ramcius so much is making me paranoid because she town reads scum a lot

Ramcius can’t be Norwee’s partner.

Ramcius!scum does not defend the Jailkeeper against his partner. Ramcius/Shea is not a thing.

Keep going, please.

I KNOW you know this is WIFOM.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm saying that you can't make the claim that scum!ram would or would not interact with your claim in a given way. As the motivations for doing the opposite are within the very argument you're making. This is textbook WIFOM.

[Thestatusquo]

I think the claim that scum would come in here hard defending each other and putting themselves into a situation where if one flips the other immediately goes too the next day from associatives is just a bizarre claim, again because Pine has specifically made the argument that "He and FL wouldn't be scum together because they're so good they wouldn't have associatives if they were scum together."

Like its a fundamental disconnect in pines position that doesn't make any sense to me at all.

You also keep saying "the town things ram has done." but when pushed on it all you said was "Here is a post number, I started thinking they were town around here." so I'm no longer letting that fly either.

Please stop with the hand wavey crap. If I'm scum say why in a way that you haven't already argued against wrt yourself. If ram is town say why in a way that is not just "at this point in time I removed him from my PoE."

This is, again, my point when I say I do not think Pine is making honest arguments. His whole premise for SheaScum is based on an associative with norwee (who isn't flipped) while simultaneously arguing that he and FL can't be a team because they wouldn't have so many associatives.

Its nonsense honestly. It shows a miopic view of the game which is consistent with scum trying to get a misfade before they go down.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't mind no elim, if we going this direction

I'm not voting Pine, unless someone is going to come up clean and claim something to justify strongman

I was thinking about potential elims and how their flips would influence our future:

TSQ green flip means it's Pine and FL, Norwee is clear, it's easy win, and someone getting earful from me after game for not claiming BP or protective, I'm not buying strongman as a red herring to counter 1 shot of doc
TSQ flips red, we flip Norwee/FL, in either order, we can afford 1 miselim

Pine flips green, we have to gamble on Norwee/FL/TSQ, twice, we have no miselim left
Pine flips red, it's me and FL getting elim

FL flips green, it's Norwee/TSQ, easy win
FL flips red, TSQ/Pine I guess, we can afford miselim

Norwee flips green, TSQ/FL/Pine, again gamble twice, yes, I'm taking into consideration that someone is being smartass and hiding their real role
Norwee flips red, we flip TSQ

VOTE: TSQ

I find this as best elim we have for today, and TSQ can keep "I haven't done anything scummy" for himself, it's PoE, not scumminess contest

I make sense as norwees partner unless you think mafia literally comes into today thinking "lets hard defend each other completely and immediately lose the game if one of us ever flips"

But go off I guess about your no case no reasoning PoE with no reasons whatsoever to think I'm scum.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't mind no elim, if we going this direction

I'm not voting Pine, unless someone is going to come up clean and claim something to justify strongman

I was thinking about potential elims and how their flips would influence our future:

TSQ green flip means it's Pine and FL, Norwee is clear, it's easy win, and someone getting earful from me after game for not claiming BP or protective, I'm not buying strongman as a red herring to counter 1 shot of doc
TSQ flips red, we flip Norwee/FL, in either order, we can afford 1 miselim

Pine flips green, we have to gamble on Norwee/FL/TSQ, twice, we have no miselim left
Pine flips red, it's me and FL getting elim

FL flips green, it's Norwee/TSQ, easy win
FL flips red, TSQ/Pine I guess, we can afford miselim

Norwee flips green, TSQ/FL/Pine, again gamble twice, yes, I'm taking into consideration that someone is being smartass and hiding their real role
Norwee flips red, we flip TSQ

VOTE: TSQ

I find this as best elim we have for today, and TSQ can keep "I haven't done anything scummy" for himself, it's PoE, not scumminess contest

I make sense as norwees partner unless you think mafia literally comes into today thinking "lets hard defend each other completely and immediately lose the game if one of us ever flips"

But go off I guess about your no case no reasoning PoE with no reasons whatsoever to think I'm scum.

I think that's better than basing scumread on idea of badly designed setup

That is a such a hilariously awful misrepresentation of my position that I'm not even going to bother responding to it. The rest of the town knows my arguments don't even resemble that.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

This is not what you've been arguing literally the whole day.

Convenient how it changes now that nancy disagrees.

[Thestatusquo]

Notably, the norwee ramcius pairing seems very plausible to me.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

This is not what you've been arguing literally the whole day.

Convenient how it changes now that nancy disagrees.

It is strange how people might change their opinions, when they have time to think. Isn't that point of mafia? To gather clues and then try to figure out truth?

Also, I literally brought up theory of you and FL being scum team 2 days ago, but sure, think that I should just repeat same stuff over and over again, that's the way to win games of mafia, or maybe to get locked in asylum, I can't remember which one it is

Yes, you brought it up before, but given that your whole argument for what we should do today was based on Norwee scum and then PoEing onto me because of it with no reason to think I'm not town, it's a very strange thing to change your mind about without reevaluating other things, because it was the whole central reason you wanted me flipped in the first place.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with Shea here. I think if either he or Norwee are scum here, it really doesn’t make any sense with each other, so I think the whole let’s flip Norwee’s PR partner Shea is unpersuasive and very likely wrong.

Nancy, I was clear enough before that my primary guess is TSQ/FL and Norwee simply don't have any other possible partner, I'm just saying that my guess might be wrong and FL is town here, then it leaves only Norwee to be TSQ's partner and Norwee can't be scum with anyone else

This is not what you've been arguing literally the whole day.

Convenient how it changes now that nancy disagrees.

Ram/Norwee?

Its certainly possible. The issue is I think Norwee is town.

[Thestatusquo]

Notably, the norwee ramcius pairing seems very plausible to me.

And how that makes sense with lock scum Pine, who is fakeclaiming jk?

Pine could be telling the truth. I don't think he is, but he could be. I'm pretty clearly still voting pine and still think he's scum but am talking about a world in which he flips town, as I have said multiple times today, I think norwee is town.

What's the point of this post besides a bad faith attempt to discredit me?

[Thestatusquo]

i mean

i still have not seen an actual case on shea apart from PoE

which is fine but the PoE argument is coming from other people in the PoE

so it doesnt actually hold up

Can you provide good case against Pine?

well, yes

he's been approaching today in a way that fits agenda

when norwee stopped being a viable push, he switched to shea, and hasn't provided an actual argument for doing so

Possibly could be wrong on Pine?

Unless it is exactly Shea/FL here, they’re probably both town. Still have some paranoia on Norwee/FL but I’m really thinking FL’s town.

I dislike that Shea is being pushed with pretty much no case.

Me too!

That's a huge part of why I'm confused as to your ramcius town read. He's the main catalyst of that.

[Thestatusquo]

brutal day at work today folks, sorry I haven't been here.

There's 2 scum in {FL, Norwee, Ramcius, nancy}

I think ramcius has been scum basically the whole game, but pine flipping town yesterday makes me doubt that. I am not sure scum ramcius fights that hard against a pine misfade.

On the other hand I'm not sure scum norwee fights that strongly for a misfade either.

FL was just kind of there yesterday, and not really leading the direction of the game but I don't like the hammer there after claiming to be waiting for the pine case.

So I'm not sure really where I should push. I need to think about it a bit.

[Thestatusquo]

Nancy I didn't go into too much detail on because she's a universal town read and basically everyone has said so, but shes not mech cleared.

[Thestatusquo]

Nancy I didn't go into too much detail on because she's a universal town read and basically everyone has said so, but shes not mech cleared.

Pine cleared me with Dann read.

VOTE: Shea

What?

Please explain?

[Thestatusquo]

Like if theres a mech clear besides akarin I don't know it. I don't know why you think that would make me scum. As scum I would be way more in tune with clears than this. Please unvote me before scum piles on for the loss.

[Thestatusquo]

oh it takes 4 to elim ok.

nm the vote is fine.

[Thestatusquo]

Also lol you really think that scum are going to come out here and try to talk about you at all you when they know that you just insta vote anyone who says your name? Do you think I'm that shitty a scum player that I wouldn't have noticed that pattern and avoided it?

THINK please.

[Thestatusquo]

If you think there's any world where scum would be trying to misfade you in this endgame you seriously need to reevaluate. It would instantly lose them the game. I put you on my PoE becaue you're not mech cleared as far as I'm aware. That's literally it.

[Thestatusquo]

Honestly this is WIFOM now that I'm saying but I think anyone talking about you today is WAY more likely to be town than scum, given that scum KNOW you're going to instantly vote them if they do.

Like you have to see this right?

[Thestatusquo]

Because a) you're universally town read so how are they getting votes on you and b) they know that mentioning you in that way is surely going to draw a vote to them. As uh, you're demonstrating on me right now.

[Thestatusquo]

If you think there's any world where scum would be trying to misfade you in this endgame you seriously need to reevaluate. It would instantly lose them the game. I put you on my PoE becaue you're not mech cleared as far as I'm aware. That's literally it.

Why? They can probably misfade Ram, NK Akarin and possibly push me in Elo. I don’t know why you’d think that improbable.

The fact that your PoE is literally everyone who isn’t Akarin pinged me and you didn’t put tiers or anything.

Wait hold on you realize this is Elo right?

It is right? Am I missing something? FL Me You Ram Akarin Norwee down 2 is 4 GG.

[Thestatusquo]

I think if norwee is scum they would prefer not to flip me because they think they have me pocketed, and its true I was strongly town reading them.

[Thestatusquo]

I think scum norwee wants me in endgame.

[Thestatusquo]

I think scum norwee wants me in endgame.

Scum wants a miselim today and if we don’t flip scum today, game ends with Akarin NK.

right we were talking about yesterday. I notice that norwee is now flipping on me now that I'm here in endgame with him. Which is exactly how I would expect scum norwee to play it if he were taking me to endgame.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean, I was doing the same thing towards norwee yesterday that you're saying he was doing towards me so I don't know why that argument doesn't go both ways.

[Thestatusquo]

I think its ramcius and norwee personally and you clearing ramcius doesn't make much sense to me.

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: TSQ

I'm fine with this

You haven't had a single other opinion other than this all game.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm good going Status, I think.

VOTE: Status

You've also been snidely pushing me the whole game with literally no reasoning.

[Thestatusquo]

You're still pretty much assuming the plan will go in this order.

TSQ flips scum ->
Pine JK's a slot and catches final scum or clears them as town.

But what i am saying is that the entire premise is flawed from the get go, because if TSQ flips town then he can't clear anyone. So unless you are absolutely sure TSQ flips scum this plan is completely folly and it also makes complete sense for scum!Pine to argue for this plan sunce he would know TSQ is flipping town.

But Ram is saying that either of you flipping town clears the other one right? So why does scum!Ram say this?

Because he only needs to elim 1 more player if he mislims today. And the easiest path for scum!Ram is to elim FL, either before or after scum!Pine.

I mean it's also pretty obvious that following a TSQ or Norwe townflip, he would not have the credibility to mislim the other.

This is my problem here @Shea. Why doesn’t scum!Norwee want town!you flipped?

I already answered this, because he can't get me flipped without losing that town cred. You really think scum norwee can just do a 180 on me and then he gets tons of credibility when I come up town?

That's just straight up not true.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would my town flip mean we wouldn't elim norwee if he flips on me to miselim? That logic just is straight up false.

[Thestatusquo]

Why would my town flip mean we wouldn't elim norwee if he flips on me to miselim? That logic just is straight up false.

I don’t think you’re understanding my point? I’m saying it would have been in scum!Norwee’s interest to flip town!you > Pine because then he probably would have jk’d either Ram or unlikely FL. However, if you’re town, then scum!Norwee would have nothing to fear from jk!Pine because even if he jk’d Norwee, his buddy - if it were FL or Ram could still have killed Misty.

So my point is that scum!Norwee really had nothing to gain by flipping Pine > you unless you’re his buddy or he’s town. Norwee!scum’s not wanting to flip town!you doesn’t really make much sense.

its the same for norwee either way except he gets someone who is town reading him to end game instead of someone like pine FL or ramcius who all want him flipped.

[Thestatusquo]

That’s why I think he’s scum. He’s pretty much saying that everyone can be scum except for him and Akarin, which while fhpov technically true tends to come more from a scum mindset, because town likes to look at odds. So the “scum is equally likely to be anyone but me or (in this case Akarin)”, is a scum not a town perspective.

That's not what I said. I mentioned you for completeness only. I broke down my thoughts on the other three and said I needed to think about which was more likely.

[Thestatusquo]

Like go back and read that post. Do you really think I'm saying "all players are equally likely to be scum?"

I promise you thats not what I was saying AT ALL.

[Thestatusquo]

I literally didn't even include you in the same post as the discussion of the other three because I think you're so much less likely to be scum.

Like what.

[Thestatusquo]

[vote: thestatusquo[/vote]

[Thestatusquo]

VOTE: thestatusquo

[Thestatusquo]

You can have hard game play without resorting to being toxic. FLs whole style is winning the game by ensuring that no one has fun playing it and that's not really my thing. I think that you can play the game hard and still recognize the humanity of the other people you're playing with.

[Thestatusquo]

I mean its based around just repeated AtE and calling anyone who disagrees with him a moron.

[Thestatusquo]

Basically if your posts are intended to manipulate someones emotions in a way that makes them feel shitty in order to put the gamestate in a place that is more favorable I don't view that as valid mafia game play. I view that as abusive behavior. I view it is an act that takes a game and treats the outcome of it as more important than the mental health of the people you're playing with.

I feel like a lot of FLs posts fall under that category and it makes the game a miserable experience where everyone is just hurt by it the whole time the player is involved.

[Thestatusquo]

FL caused me and several others in the game real tangible mental harm with the way he played and he may think thats a valid way to play mafia and worth it in order to try to achieve his win condition.

I do not agree, though.

[Thestatusquo]

Like I was in a place several points this game where it might have been advantageous of me to try to make norwee feel like garbage and hurt him emotionally. But I chose not to take those lines because I care about norwee as a human being and I don't view causing people mental anguish to be a part of what mafia should be. I don't want to hurt norwee. I want to play a game on the internet. There's a line here, because a lot of the game IS about manipulation but I draw that line firmly before causing your opponents harm.

[Thestatusquo]

There was a VERY clear point here where Akarin was obviously in an delicate place mental health wise and I was in a really rough spot because I clearly needed to push her for gamestate reasons. I hope I was able to strike a balance between trying to achieve my win condition and not causing her harm but I'm not sure I did that successfully and I want to apologize to Akarin if she felt that my push was over that line.

[Thestatusquo]

honestly I dont have a problem with FL conceding the game.

I have a problem with almost everything else he did, but I don't have a problem with him conceding in what I think was a clearly lost position.

This will be my last post in this thread.