TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Shirou]

If Mena isn't willing to vote Auro/Flopz with us today, assuming I'm not wrong on Flopz, only one other person in [Shirou, Chennis, Lilith, AL, Joqi, Math] can not agree to vote Auro with us for town to not have enough numbers.

In other words, people that believe in scum!Auro [Shirou, Chennis, Lilith??] need to convince 2/3 of [Math , Mena, Joqi] to vote Auro here unless we switch to Flopz since Math/Joqi already wants to vote Flopz.

If AL is also opposed to considering Auro today I guess it updates to 3/4 of [Math, Mena, Joqi, AL] which to me is...so much work...

[Shirou]

(2) she thinks that if we decide to do shirou’s plan from yesterday then it’s non-negotiable that shirou dies first, but then gets to pick the elims for the next 2 days

Was expecting that Shirou!town would jump at this

If everyone unanimously agree to:

1) Not say a single word in D3/D4 and just place their votes

2) ignore anyone that doesn't place the correct votes in D3/D4 and continuously only say/quote "vote correctly" as a reply to every post someone out of the voting block makes. No discussion whatsoever.

I could consider it. Dunno if I would agree, but I could give it a good consideration.

I honestly don't think it's something huge because eliminating one of Auro/Flopz shouldn't be hard in the upcoming 4 lims to the point that losing one elim and "trusting" people to follow the plan seems more complicated than just sit here insisting on you, because I'm not voting outside of You/Flopz today so for a Math wagon, only someone else needs to disagree together with me for it to be a non-pure town wagon, which I think I could try talking to Chennis.

[Shirou]

This isn't a "I think my reads are precisely correct and am willing to be BoP based on them". It's even more than something like this, it's:

"It's mathematically likely that the game ends with Auro/Flopz if our town block is right, and even if our townblock is wrong on someone". This isn't subjective if we assume the two original, simple premises of the plan.

[Shirou]

Auro I'm happy you're shading me.

If possible, I would like you to place me as your top scumread.

Look, I'm scared of being limmed in this game since I'm scum that loses today if I get limmed. Isn't that scary?

The game ends with a single scum lim now, things like BoP / Sacrifices are a no-no don't you see?

I think you're wrong on scum!Lilith here, doesn't scum!Shirou seems to make more sense given my above posts?

[Shirou]

You were even getting it right yesterday coming to "scum!Shirou". It shouldn't be hard to come back to your previous reads right?

Come, it's very comfy in the scum!Shirou block/wagon. I invite you to sit here.

[Shirou]

Look at those recent posts.

They're awful, LAMIST, WIFOM-y.

How could you not vote someone like this if you're town Auro?

That would be unacceptable.

[Shirou]

Sorry boi but you can only get second place at tops

Do I need to be more scummy in that case?

Also, doesn't a Lilith/Shirou scumteam makes

super sense

?

Why aren't you considering that there's two scums that should be defending each other now that they can't afford another lim?

Isn't Lilith/Shirou, that doesn't seem to be in danger of being limmed right now, a huge concern for town!Auro?

[Shirou]

You were even getting it right yesterday coming to "scum!Shirou". It shouldn't be hard to come back to your previous reads right?

Come, it's very comfy in the scum!Shirou block/wagon. I invite you to sit here.

On the condition that you engage with me for many pages.

I don't need to, I just need to scum it up no?

There's no way that town!Auro doesn't think it's Lilith + Shirou when I'm happily hard placing Lilith in the "town block", and making a plan to endgame if we're wrong on Lilith?

Isn't Lilith + Shirou the obvious answer here?!

[Shirou]

Why would you need me to engage you if I'm just making awful scum posts town!Auro?

Isn't it just, like, clear as day that I'm scum, possibly scum with Lilith in your pov, and that I'm making a plan to place Lilith in the townblock and endgame?

[Shirou]

Also, doesn't a Lilith/Shirou scumteam makes super sense?

not really

shirou/chenn or shirou/AL makes much more sense

I'm talking from "town!Auro" pov.

He hard scum reads Lilith, and is suspicious of me, while he seems to think AL isn't scum.

From his PoV, Lilith + Shirou should be the most likely pairing.

[Shirou]

Not only Lilith + Shirou is the most likely pairing for you town!Auro, it's also incredibly worrying because don't you think town isn't in a good place at the moment if that is the scumz?

Town wants mostly to:

Eliminate Flopz

Eliminate AL

Eliminate Math

and it's not even including you, which is not very, if at all, town read.

Isn't that enough elims to a possible endgame...?

Extremely worrying don't you think Auro?

[Shirou]

Town wants mostly to:

Look at this scum slip by the way

Rather than "Majority", "Board", or etc. I instantly said "Town".

I can't believe you're letting me + Lilith get away this easy Auro. You didn't even place a vote yet.

[Shirou]

@Mena, it's not really PoE, after Johnny flip I gave a re:read on his wagon risen, and in some other pages, and my conclusion was that Flopz/Auro were the most likely partners.

I think it's possible that Math is scum but I don't see a huge equity at the moment. It's not only a mechanical decision, it's a read + mechanical decision which is why it's strong in my mind.

[Shirou]

didn't u think math was scum at EoD yesterday shirou

Yes, and upon Johnny flip I reconsidered with how Johnny insisted on DK being obvtown.

I don't think it's the simplest answer, and I think the mildly simple answer in the game is the most likely one rather than scum!Johnny hard associating himself with his partner in Black Flag.

[Shirou]

I reconsidered with how Johnny insisted on DK being obvtown

why doesn't Johnny call his most townread partner obvtown?

I don't think that's the kind of bold play scum!Johnny does. If it was another player I could see it more easily.

Johnny which seemed to want to be low-key/under the radar?

No, I don't think so, DK didn't really need that extra defense.

[Shirou]

and then at EoD he was making a lot of effort to WIFOM his slot's relationship with, specifically, my slot and math!slot

If you're town why do you think he wasn't trying to misassociate himself with town!Math as well?

[Shirou]

I'm kind of wanting to elim you progressively more as a safety measure because the way you're playing today is increasing my paranoia about you being scum with any of (chennis, AL, math)

That's unfortunate but when I saw how this game opened today, I had little hope that today would go smoothly.

I'm not gonna bother trying to convince you otherwise, in fact I'm gonna tell you that in that safety measure, you should convince Auro to vote me here. Possibly Flopz as well.

[Shirou]

because I still think the two most obviously correct elims today are (AL, math) and your positioning today is strongly avoiding that

which is not to say this can't be town!you reaching a divergent conclusion. but it's not helping me feel good about you, especially given your reversal on math!slot and that you don't seem as eager to lay down your life for you mech!win plan as you claimed to be yesterday

I didn't feel good about you trying to do (AL, math) which in my opinion is opening the path to Auro/Flopz scum victory, but I didn't mind too much since I can afford to be wrong on you if that's the case, and I think you're just coming to a different conclusion probably.

Either way Mena, in this case you should help me make Auro see how I'm scummy. Things may get more interesting by then.

[Shirou]

I mean, I'm not wedded to the idea yet

if we did, you'd want auto->flopz the next two days, yes?

Convince Auro/Flopz on me and we'll see.

[Shirou]

I'm gonna trust Lilith / Chennis here, and think they'll not vote me in most cases, therefore if you were to vote me Mena, you need to convince 4/5 of [Auro, Flopz, AL, Math, Joqi]

Unhappily, I would like to trust two more players in that, specifically Math / Joqi not voting me today, especially because in town!Math pov I could easily get away with his elimination today but I'm opposing it, but I can't really trust those two so I'm gonna just wait and see how this turns out.

[Shirou]

If 2/3 of AL /Math / Joqi do come to a consensus that I'm most likely town in this game, and following that Auro/Flopz does vote me, I promise at the very least to spicy up this game.

[Shirou]

In fact I would like to make it clear to AL and Math that if I was scum, I think honestly need to be a bit intensively silly to believe that I would be here risking my own slot to hard block your eliminations when I could easily do you two first > do Auro/Flopz later, which amounts to a total of 4 miseliminations if it's town!AL / town!Math, I'm scum, and it's town!Auro or town!Flopz.

It makes little sense, so I do would like to see you understand that there's arguably almost zero benefit to scum!Shirou to propose BoP or risk their slot in a insta-death Black Flag gamestate to protect town!Math or town!Autumn, other than for WIFOM.

WIFOM that has no benefit/gains, and in fact only put disadvantages on me, isn't my kind of thing at all. Consider that.

[Shirou]

I think in fact I want to clear Menalque off if he isn't partners with one of Auro / Flopz.

He's suggesting doing Math / AL, which means his only possible partners are Chennis, Lilith, Joqi.

He just shaded Chennis/Joqi early in the day. I think I'm good assuming that this is probably town!Menalque by this point, but if he isn't, his partners with one of Auro / Flopz.

Therefore I'm indeed ready to wager the entire game on a chain, but for my plan to work better, I would like for 2/3 of [Math, Joqi, AL] to claim that they don't plan to vote me.

I would like to hear more specifically Math/AL opinions on me, since I'm trying to hardblock your relatively very easy miseliminations if you're town.

[Shirou]

Oh yay! 10 hours 10 pages. No I haven’t read and no you probably haven’t read in-depth either it’s probably just rapid fire and not thinking. Any quick questions before I get ready for work?

I'm blocking people off voting you for the next 2 days, when you're arguably relatively easy miselimination compared to other options.

Would you be up to in response, write off voting me for the next 2 days?

[Shirou]

Vote Count

Auro - 2

(Shirou, Lilith2013)

Flopz - 1

(Mathblade)

Mathblade - 1

(Menalque)

Not Voting - 5

(Auro, Autumn Leaves, chennisden, Flopz, Joqiza)

Activity Check - Start of Day

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to remove politely

Deadline: (expired on 2021-02-10 21:00:00)

Doesn’t seem like you’re blocking people voting me?

I'm trying, of course I can't completely veto it.

Lilith seemed to be up to vote you early in the day, I could have angled to vote you as well and that would already be 3/5 of the votes for an elimination

I did however insist on focusing on Auro, which seems to have highlighted the problems with Auro slot after Lilith questioned him more, and now she's voting them.

We could easily have 3 votes on you right now I think, but we don't.

If that's not good enough to you, I don't know what it would be.

[Shirou]

You guys are too complicated to me.

Screw hedging on things going wrong, if they do I guess I suck but I'm not up to keep trying to convince Math / Mena / etc to converge on something. I would understand their position in any setup that isn't Black Flag.

I'm fine with a BoP on me, with the following caveat:

The chain is:

Auro > Shirou > Flopz


I'm not giving a Auro/Flopz scumteam 2 days to convince you guys to do something else when AL/Math seems so miseliminable if they're town. It was in fact my worry about doing this.

If Auro flips town today, I'm self-voting tomorrow AS LONG AS YOU VOTE AURO RIGHT NOW.

If you delay Auro wagon I'm not gonna hold this promise. You've been warned. I want instant-death or nothing. It's my birthday and I want to wrap up this game as soon as possible.

[Shirou]

Fair enough. Just seemed like a weird reaction test or something. It didn’t jive with what I had.

Why do you think people are so willing to sheep you?

Whatever Math.

Discussion time is over, now it's Mafia Texas time where I bet all my chips on my reads.

I would rather lose this game because scum pulled off something unexpected than to keep like this.

My entire chain for anyone with an interest is:

Auro > Shirou > Flopz > MathBlade

Mena/AL/Chennis probably still have at maximum one scum so I suggest Math if things come to the worst. I don't think they will though.

[Shirou]

I was planning to do something much more elaborated if Math had agreed to write me off in the next 2 days, which would force an interesting dynamic in the game, but I'm not going to sit here and keep making redundant arguments.

If scum isn't in Auro/Flopz/Math I'm giving them what they want but I do believe that the probability of that is very low.

[Shirou]

I'm not accepting a BoP of Shirou > Auro > Flopz

I'm not giving a hypothetical Auro/Flopz scumteam 2 entire days to change such an indecisive/divided playerlist mind.

It's

Auro > Shirou > Flopz

or nothing. Also it needs to be fast, if I need to wait days or until deadline there's no point to doing this.

[Shirou]

I was planning to do something much more elaborated if Math had agreed to write me off in the next 2 days, which would force an interesting dynamic in the game, but I'm not going to sit here and keep making redundant arguments.

If scum isn't in Auro/Flopz/Math I'm giving them what they want but I do believe that the probability of that is very low.

Oh no. If I had agreed I woulda been scum.

What scum wouldn’t have wanted a loud town not voting them for two days?

I already have given up on you Math if you're town. You're too stubborn.

I'm mostly looking to convince Mena/AL here now.

AL suspects me so I do think that AL should like this proposition.

[Shirou]

Yup Auro's insistence that there's no plan after Auro Flopz just makes me think he's scum

Auro:

1) Didn't consider that the most flawed part of the plan isn't the fact AL may not be scum from his pov, but that Lilith is scum therefore the plan is flawed at its base

2) Auro was suspecting Flopz and did a 180 coming to today

3) Auro thinks both me/Lilith are suspects, but never mentioned how obvious it should be from town!Auro PoV that I'm trying to insert Lilith into the townblock to endgame with my plan

Auro progression here makes 0 sense from a town pov so far in my view.

[Shirou]

Menalque I don't think I've ever come forward first as scum proposing a BoP, at most in Baton Pass I said "yeah lim me if this flips town as well" after a town player did hard lock me into their own BP of "If Shiro flips town I'm self-voting tomorrow".

Even in the above case, I tried to deflect until said player said "look, Shirou is getting afraid" and I was forced to say something in response. I intentionally proceeded to sound emotionally chaotic so that people would see the argument as stupid in that game and write it off as TvT most likely.

I'm serious here but I cannot allow myself to self-vote today when half or more than half of the playerlist seems wo wishy-washy towards Auro/Flopz.

It needs to be Auro > Shirou > Flopz.

[Shirou]

i have no interest in killing you shirou

you read the game, for crying out loud, and you KNOW that these kind of propositions aren't going to be effective

Shirou > Auro > Flopz isn't effective. People may simply get misguided by Auro.


Auro > Shirou > Flopz most of the time simply wins the game before we even get there. If we do, I plan to follow my promise either way to give more weight later in the day for you to push Flopz, and Joqi/Math already suspects Flopz, that's 3.

Mena does seem to me like the kind of person to hold in his promise, 4 votes on Flopz if Auro flips town.

This kind of thing doesn't work in most games, but it doesn't mean it won't work here in this case.

All I want, and need, is Auro wagon today, and fast because if it's scum!Auro like I think it is, I hate the thought of wasting my time like I'm doing here at the moment.

[Shirou]

shirou i think the chances of you being scum are extraordinarily low and i also think the chances of auro scum are high, but i also think these kinds of propositions are a) anti-town and b) only going to discourage people from voting the wagon

I agree with a)

Disagree with b)

You + ME + Lilith are already 3

Mena liked the BoP thingy.

If Mena joins it's 4.

We need five.

One more and it's elimination.

This entire proposition is a bargain for no one other than Menalque in particular, which forces the tier break of four votes, making the fifth one much easier.

[Shirou]

There's no difference between saying that above proposition to the entire game, and saying that proposition to Menalque / Autumn, because those are the people I want to convince to join Auro, and they both seem to suspect me.

The unique way we lose with Auro > Shirou > Flopz > Math is if Mena / AL are scum together, or Chennis / AL, or Lilith/Joqi scum, which just seems unlikely to me.

I'm not a very patient person once I've made up my mind. I'm extremely indecisive until I've made up my mind, when I've made up my mind I don't care about anything else anymore.

[Shirou]

I would like to hear more specifically Math/AL opinions on me, since I'm trying to hardblock your relatively very easy miseliminations if you're town.

I don't think this is clearing for you at all, in fact I think you're just saving our elims for later. Instead of re-evaluating the bloc, people like joqi will want to elim me/math already.

I was very sure the team was mena/shirou and I was writing up a case, this day phase has made that less likely though, so I'll have to think about things.

See @Chennis?

Auro wagon probably doesn't happen today unless I make the BoP of "I self-vote tomorrow if Auro flips town, and if I break this promise treat me as confirmed scum".

However

I need this to be

fast

. I want to wrap up this game in my birthday. If you guys wait too long and I just lose interest in this game, I'll retract the proposition and it's your loss.

[Shirou]

Autumn look, I'm scum like you think.

Now I've just made the sweet promise of self-voting tomorrow if Auro flips town today as long as you vote him right now.

If I break this promise while the offer is up (it needs to be fast), treat me as confirmed scum.

If I'm scum this virtually loses me the game.

Can you just vote Auro?

[Shirou]

I'm scum Autumn.

Scum.

Now vote Auro already, and hard catch me tomorrow, and you win the game.

Very simple plan right?

I don't think I'm getting limmed today without a self-vote, although who knows by this point.

[Shirou]

Look, Autumn/Mena/Joqi seems to have boners for each other, and Math is stubborn in every game.

None of them are particularly looking at Auro right now, and although Joqi/Math are considering Flopz, I think there's more chance of town!Flopz than town!Auro, and it just gives ammunition for scum!Auro to deflect if by any chance we miselim Flopz.

I may be wrong and the team is elsewhere, but from my point of view, most town players are making the move to open a possibly scum victory when this game should be simpler to win if our premises on late D1 are right, and everyone seemed to agree on those back then.

[Shirou]

2) Auro was suspecting Flopz and did a 180 coming to today

3) Auro thinks both me/Lilith are suspects, but never mentioned how obvious it should be from town!Auro PoV that I'm trying to insert Lilith into the townblock to endgame with my plan

2) Oh yes re-evaluation is scummy

3) is just daft

I'm OK with Auro->Shirou->Lilith

Self-vote.

[Shirou]

If by any chance I'm wrong on Auro/Flopz, I think there's one scum in Math/AL.

Everyone is already looking towards Math/AL. I don't have anything to do towards that.

I think that if it's town!Auro / town!Shirou and we're just misreading each other, although it's not the precisely most optimal route, it's sure the easiest/quickest, that saves up a lot of time and clear up misunderstandings like "is Shirou scum??", "What did AL mean by scum bussed??", etc.

I recommend self-vote Auro, regardless of alignment.

[Shirou]

No, out of principle. You go ahead and do the work

As expected.

My initial plan was to make you vote me, convince 2/3 of Math/AL/Joqi to write me off, and force you to self-vote from a town pov because the unique way scum!me would get limmed if 2/3 of [Math/AL/Joqi] wrote me off, was if I self-voted. Lilith is also near unkillable in this game therefore at that point, for town!Auro the best play would be to follow my proposition on BoP and make me self-vote to defeat tomorrow.

I did expect however, that you would simple say this, but It would sound more incriminating if the above did happen...

[Shirou]

Seems like you're getting pretty agitated, Shirou

This is just like the last Jingle's Large we both played.

We had a wagon on scum, we needed only a few votes, but people were like "but since we've no deadlines we need to discuss until the end of times" when that just gives scum more time to deflect.

It makes me sigh from the depth of my soul.

[Shirou]

Your'e only thinking of the short term.

Of course it would be better in long-term to let the game play out, maybe even go for AL/Math today as most people seem to want, and just later finish with you/Flopz if it didn't win the game.

It's much more safeproof than this. Am I the kind of person that makes such a boring decision though? No.

I'm not sitting here for 2 ~ 6 more weeks for a game that I feel there's little chance I'm wrong. Time is my most valued asset. The unique thing that you can't really buy, trade or create in this world is time.

I'm fine giving myself a mechanically weaker position if it means it does save me weeks.

If you mean "short-term" as in "you're only thinking of the consequences to this game", I don't care about that.

I don't care about winning as scum anymore and if people would take those propositions more seriously when I'm town, that would be a win in my book.

It's not common for me to make those propositions I think though.

[Shirou]

town!Auro the best play would be to follow my proposition on BoP

No, the best play is to convince people to kill the unkillable at some point post my flip.

I do believe you're scum so arguing with you is pointless, but if you're talking that I should hedge on the fact maybe you're town and prepare myself accordingly, I disagree.

It's the most optimal plan if you don't value potential wasted time.

I do value time the most.

This is a very bad plan according to my ideals.

[Shirou]

but i still think there's no way we finish the game today (irl time).

Unhappily.

[Shirou]

I do believe you're scum so arguing with you is pointless, but if you're talking that I should hedge on the fact maybe you're town and prepare myself accordingly, I disagree.

It's the most optimal plan if you don't value potential wasted time.

I do value time the most.

This is a very bad plan according to my ideals.

Why should I stop playing the game because it's against your ideals? There are many other players in the game.

Ok I misinterpreted.

I thought you said that I should be the one to convince you to say you don't want Lilith/Me in your flip.

This one is on me.

[Shirou]

Shirou, I'll think about it, and if I decide it's a good idea, I'll vote auro by the end of the today.

I appreciate it.

[Shirou]

For what it's worth:

@everyone

If I'm scum here the play is making this proposition, making people not follow on it, saying that I'm giving up on the game later after people reject it, and making myself look townier by acting dejected that you didn't follow my proposition even though I offered my own slot.

However, as town I can act the same way, and the unique way to best verify my alignment here is following my proposition.

[Shirou]

auro's at less than e-1 right

No, at the moment it's:

Auro (2) - Shirou, Lilith

5 votes to eliminate.

The plan is to convince Autumn / Mena with the BoP since they suspect me, and with you we've 5 votes.

[Shirou]

Math / Joqi can hardly be swayed with my proposition I believe

so it comes down to Autumn / Mena.

It's a good sign that Autumn is considering it now. Mena will naturally consider it but LLD/him may for some reason get insistent on "Shirou first", and I'm not budging in Auro being first, so in the end it would be an unhappy conclusion.

By the way LLD/Mena insisting on Shirou first is exactly what scum!me would like to see, because it makes gives me the credit for offering a public BoP, at the same time I've leeway to not really do it.

[Shirou]

Chennis, would you consider scum!Lilith strongly if I and Flopz get limmed in succession?

i would mostly be looking in {shirou lilith al}, i guess

^ this is another reason

I do think I'm fairly town in the public eye, but fairly town for D2.

I do believe that I would still get in the elimination pool in the following days, so at the very least, it's not a big loss if I get limmed here, town is still fairly on good standing even if

Auro > Shirou > Flopz

somehow still ends in town flips.

AL/Math would be strong candidates to have at least one scum in that scenario either way, and everyone is already looking into them. At best I would say that even in the worst case scenario, town here has 50% chance of victory.

This is the worst of the worst scenario of course.

[Shirou]

I'm gonna be honest

the fact that Auro still suspects me when I'm proposing a BoP on him, when he should know he's town and therefore this is a stupid play from me, is another very confusing point in world where it's town!Auro

[Shirou]

You can't convince me that it's a good idea for any scum, 4 miselims away from victory, to suggest a BoP unless they don't plan to actually flip the person that day, as I described what scum!me would do in this scenario.

If this was a normal game sure, but it's Black Flag and we only need one other scum elim. This isn't the place for scum to offer BoP. I don't get your suspicious on me Auro.

[Shirou]

Auro:

You town read Flopz, AL, and is saying you don't think I'm scum, unless you're playing semantics and think I'm "null", when I don't see how you can see a slot that has done so much in a null way.

Who exactly is Lilith partner anyway?

Joqi? Mena? Math?

You seem to only have one suspect in the entire 8 other slots you should be considering. You don't even have a team with Lilith on it and you aren't putting me for some reason even though I'm the one that proposed taking Lilith to endgame.

You're gonna hide with your "I don't need to have a partner or consider others when I know Lilith is scum [smile emoji]", but it's the most lackluster answer possible.

[Shirou]

* the third one is my paranoid tinfoil and is why I'm not willing to entertain your proposal to rush things.

I'm offering myself and you think this can have negative connotation.

I expected this from your slot, so I'm not surprised, but I can't help but shake my head.

[Shirou]

I would never have made this proposition if not for AL / Mena slots

I'm not sure I said so in the thread, I probably did, but they were the ones I expected to convince.

I knew this would be the exact reaction from Math / Joqi.

If any of AL / Mena disagrees with my plan, I'll simply back down on "Auro townflip = Me self-voting tomorrow". Bear this in mind. I'm not gonna keep trying to convince people on a BoP.

[Shirou]

That’s how I normally hide as scum.

No way math could be scum, who is his partner?

Requiring a solve when we only need one to win is silly.

It's precisely because you only need one scum to win that you entertain multiple solves here

if you think X/Y team is possible, and so is Z/Y, you go for player Y here for higher odds of victory.

entertaining multiple teams and what are the keystone slots is the correct play in this gamestate rather than just sticking your guns to an one-sided read.

[Shirou]

that should about sum it up. I feel like I’m just repeating myself at this point but auro doesn’t seem to want to listen because he’s already dEcIdEd LiLiTh Is ScUm

He already decided Lilith is scum

He already decided Flopz is town

He already decided he can't neither town read me or scum read me because it messes with his position

He's not going to make any progress on his reads, I'm very confident on this statement.

If he does now that I'm saying, it's not gonna be something relevant.

[Shirou]

And if you're correct that Auro is scum that's great, but it's a conclusion I would like to come to independently, once I'm not having to just pop in and read comments at work. Making passive aggressive comments towards me is not going to facilitate that process.

My answer basically, I would make one or two edits but it's good enough to quote:

I appreciate the reply. I'm not like, upset at you because I don't really think it's your fault and obviously you should play in a way that makes you enjoy the game, I'm more just like, complaining about the general masses *gesticulates wildly* you know? cause I'm petty and shit

[Shirou]

That’s how I normally hide as scum.

No way math could be scum, who is his partner?

Requiring a solve when we only need one to win is silly.

It's precisely because you only need one scum to win that you entertain multiple solves here

if you think X/Y team is possible, and so is Z/Y, you go for player Y here for higher odds of victory.

entertaining multiple teams and what are the keystone slots is the correct play in this gamestate rather than just sticking your guns to an one-sided read.

holy people are actually using keystone as a term now

Yes, I'm stealing from you. I liked the term a lot.

[Shirou]

I guess I'm camping the thread today until I get an answer of Mena / AL / Joqi on their interest of scum!Auro

If they don't follow though, I suppose I'll back down on the agitation. But I do hope I can wrap up this game today, and focus on completing the events in my ARPG.

I've been slacking on them for 2 weeks...

[Shirou]

I am considering the proposition to do auro->shirou->flopz if shirou swears up and down today that they are scumclaiming tomorrow if they don’t self-vote after being wrong on auro

I swear up and down today it's a scumclaim as long as Auro happens today (in real life).

[Shirou]

If I'm wrong on both Auro/Flopz, my thesis of this game is completely wrong. I'm negative utility for town in that scenario. My slot isn't important other than the fact it wastes a lim, but I can accept that.

I guess I could avoid that by playing normally/cautiously for the following 2 ~ 6 weeks, but we already talked about why I don't want to do that.

[Shirou]

Shirou, i want a post which doesn’t have anything in it other than “if I’m wrong on auro and I don’t self-vote on D3 or I otherwise resist my elim in any way, shape, or form, I am scumclaiming

If I try to shade mena for wanting me dead as I *promised* I would be okay with after auro!elim, I am scumclaiming

Do not listen to what I say on D3, listen to what I’m saying now on D2, I should be elimmed on D3”

"If I'm wrong on Auro and I don't self-vote on D3 or I otherwise resist my elim in any way, shape, or form, I am scumclaiming.

If I try to shade Mena for wanting me dead as I *promised* I would be okay with after Auro!elim, I am scumclaiming

---------- // ------------

Here is where I add my own wording a bit though:

"Do not listen to anything I say about resisting my elimination on D3, listen to what I'm saying now on D2, I should be elimmed on D3, but I'll still give my thoughts on what to do on D4 while self-voting, but only in D4, never talking about what to change in D3".

Final words:

"This post is only valid today (in real life time). On my clock it's 3pm in the afternoon, if Auro wagon doesn't go through today/now, I can retract both my vote on Auro and this whole proposition".

[Shirou]

It makes me sigh I had to go to this forceful route to make Auro happen, but I suppose that's what playing mafia is about...

Let's hope this will wrap it up, and no, this is not me trying to take it back or anything.

I...don't like to play dictator, it's just the more effective method quite often in games where there's little consensus of opinions...

p-edit: I understand what you're saying Chennis, but I don't think it's a loss, I think it's only a bit worse than waiting 2 ~ 6 weeks for a natural wagon on Auro. I can make that trade.

[Shirou]

I'm not taking this deal, I have to reconsider my reads.

Hmm...

This is disappointing.

[Shirou]

Let's see.

Now the rest of my hope goes into Joqi / Chennis both voting Auro.

Joqi we'll need to wait him to show up / read the thread on his own.

But what about you Chennis? It's not the most optimal but it's the most simple route. Vote with us.

[Shirou]

Chennis, let me make something clear:

I've, intentionally messed up the gamestate now with my actions. You can hate me for that I suppose, but even if the Auro wagon doesn't go through, Mena will now focus on [Shirou/Chennis] that this whole theater to gather town points.

Is it a questionable read? Yes, but I doubt you'll change a scum read on you by arguing with that person directly.

The best way to defuse the bomb I've implemented in this game currently is to exactly make the Auro wagon happen today, and give less ammunition for scum to angle [Shirou, Chennis] if you believe I'm town. If you believe I'm scum, following the wagon is also the correct choice to force my hand on D3.

If you think this is the same gamestate that we had in the initial D2, it's not.

I intentionally burned much of the "social credit" of my slot through my interactions/actions in the last pages. From a slot people were a bit doubtful, but comfortable with, I became an active source of suspicious.

I implemented a bomb and am giving you as well the method to defuse it, and saying "do it?", a jerk move arguably, but still likely the correct move.

I'm essentially another LHF if Auro doesn't happen today and town is going to lose focus on more important slots either way with my presence. Consider voting Auro.

[Shirou]

It doesn't matter what you think of Auro or mine alignment.

I've implemented chaos in this game and brought chaos to your slot as well, and the most simple route to defuse it is to follow the chain rather than try arguing "I'm not scum with Shirou!", "Shirou is town even if Auro is town!", "Auro is scum but we shouldn't make this proposition" for 30 ~ 40 pages but failing to achieve results.

[Shirou]

Chennis, let me make something clear:

I've, intentionally messed up the gamestate now with my actions. You can hate me for that I suppose, but even if the Auro wagon doesn't go through, Mena will now focus on [Shirou/Chennis] that this whole theater to gather town points.

Is it a questionable read? Yes, but I doubt you'll change a scum read on you by arguing with that person directly.

The best way to defuse the bomb I've implemented in this game currently is to exactly make the Auro wagon happen today, and give less ammunition for scum to angle [Shirou, Chennis] if you believe I'm town. If you believe I'm scum, following the wagon is also the correct choice to force my hand on D3.

If you think this is the same gamestate that we had in the initial D2, it's not.

I intentionally burned much of the "social credit" of my slot through my interactions/actions in the last pages. From a slot people were a bit doubtful, but comfortable with, I became an active source of suspicious.

I implemented a bomb and am giving you as well the method to defuse it, and saying "do it?", a jerk move arguably, but still likely the correct move.

I'm essentially another LHF if Auro doesn't happen today and town is going to lose focus on more important slots either way with my presence. Consider voting Auro.

bleh what's auro at

if i'm not hammering i'll consider it

E-2.

[Shirou]

E-1.

This is a tierbreaker, I suppose now there's more bargaining chip to have with the table of Math / Joqi / Autumn.

Let's see if we can wrap up this game today, or to at the very least show I'm dumb.

[Shirou]

I think Auro, regardless of his alignment, engaged us quite a lot.

It's just a matter that it didn't change my mind at all...

I'm truly sorry if I'm wrong on you by the way Auro, but I'm gonna pay in D3 either way in that scenario.

[Shirou]

Actually, if I'm sure the deal has enough support, I'll consider it. Me and mena will have a...discussion.

What a bad time for a new magic the gathering set to come out.

I suggest for it to be fast.

The proposition isn't eternal at all.

In fact, it would surprise you what I'll do if this doesn't go through.

[Shirou]

Now that we're on E-1, my confidence was in no way overestimation or a lie, I do believe this is the correct elimination in this game.

However, I want to note I do dislike how passive-aggressive I had to be in the last pages, and how much chaos/agitation I had to insert for us to get here.

This is, again, in no way me taking back any of what I said, it's just acknowledging. This game forces you sometimes to incorporate behaviors to get a tactical advantage on something.

I'm glad it seems to be over and we're at E-1, which is the final showdown, because it's either a complete rebuttal of the proposition by Math / AL / Joqi, or it's the final step.

[Shirou]

man these last n pages have given me reason to doubt my initial read

Please don't. for reasons even deeper than whether Auro is or not.

In fact, Auro does seem to be spewing final thoughts or anything, it seems to me as resigned scum although I can still be wrong.

[Shirou]

Auro does seem to be spewing final thoughts or anything

doesn't seem*

I don't really town read what Auro is doing, I do think it's a bit emotionally charged because eliminations are never pleasant on active players.

[Shirou]

chennisden wrote:
auro can i get your read on shirou?


This will be spicy: town

If you had come to this conclusion way early, I may have given you town points if you want me to be fair, but at this state I do think it's meaningless.

I don't think I may have changed my mind on your slot though just because of that.

[Shirou]

Auro does seem to be spewing final thoughts or anything

doesn't seem*

I don't really town read what Auro is doing, I do think it's a bit emotionally charged because eliminations are never pleasant on active players.

I was a little emotional at Chennis' previous accusation but I am otherwise detached.

My spicy hypothesis for Lilith's partner was Menalque.

I meant "emotionally charged" not as you being emotional, but it's an emotional moment in the game to bring an active, engaged player to E-1, and watch everyone sit awkwardly in the tablet saying last words, acting resigned to fate, or etc.

It's almost never pleasant regardless of alignment really, unless the entire playerlist is convinced of someone, the person is a low content poster, or other unusual circumstances.

[Shirou]

It's natural in those last moments to have sudden reconsideration, which in my experience are more often wrong than right, but I suppose that's my experience not a natural rule.

Even I feel a bit more comfortable seeing town!Auro due to circumstances, but the logical and bulk of the read is unchanging, therefore I don't think I should let any sway to happen especially considering the state.

Nothing changed, yet people may feel it's changed, it's just the kind of situation E-1 is.

[Shirou]

Again stating:

I'm in no way, shape or form retracting my previous statements. Everything is still according to the previous chain.

[Shirou]

I don't think it's necessarily rushed.

We had 20 pages of development, that's more than enough in my opinion.

We have a low participation of some slots, but they are the ones that is gonna decide the fate of this wagon, so it'll balance itself out.

There's no reason to the voting people to chill in my opinion.

[Shirou]

Chennis, trust me when I say this, you won't like what happens in a failure to get Auro wagon through.

This isn't a threat or anything, it's just my conclusion and up to now, most things happened as I expected.

It's not only my actions that will cause chaos or anything, it's the whole circumstances.

Also, I mean it when I say this proposition isn't eternal, and my next actions should it fail may surprise people.

[Shirou]

Ah...

Why can't we have simple things in life...

[Shirou]

Maybe I'm just not a team player, that's why it's so frustating to play this game although I find the solving part intriguing...

p-edit: that's fair.

[Shirou]

Look, let's do this in that case:

I'm gonna go eat something, do other obligations, and later check the thread/give quick checks between that.

I simply do want to emphasis again that I don't play to keep this gamestate forever.

[Shirou]

Goodnight Auro.

[Shirou]

Chennis, any particular reason you use a Pichu as avi?

By the way now that I think about it, I may have played with you in one of your first games on site, I had forgot it was actually you back then.

It was a game where me vs RC had...a nasty fall off in late game, but I was scum.

[Shirou]

I'm not sure it was you though...but the person used a pichu I suppose.

[Shirou]

In fact maybe it wasn't you...?

I remember it being a pair of pichus...

Hmm, I used to have a good memory, what happened with me...

[Shirou]

Mena, what about doing a chain of infinity > auro in this case?

I'm just tired, the unique slot I can't follow consensus is Chennis, if you say "It's Shirou/Chennis!" I don't know what to tell you Mena. Chennis/Fire interactions + Chennis leading Johnny happened before I even repped in the game.

I can do either Math/AL if this is what people what people want. The Auro bargain is...still up? But now with you getting paranoid there's just not enough people.

[Shirou]

I can do either Flopz/Math/AL

Maybe Flopz is optimal I guess but if Flopz flips town for any reason, limming Auro which is my most confident bet is gonna be harder, which overall seems negative equity rather than someone else > Auro.

For what it's worth I think AL probably...flips town? Not impossible it flips scum but hmm, yeah.

Math...math can go either way but associatives to Johnny points to town as well.

Also, this was what "my actions if it fails will surprise you", because what I meant, but of course didn't want to say, is that I would just follow other people somewhere else rather than trying to keep up dictator.

[Shirou]

@Mena What makes you confident we'll have enough support for the shirou elim? Even if I go along with it, and math and you will presumably vote there, and he'll self vote, but others didn't seem particularly interested in taking the deal

I need mena to answer this too.

I think that at least (joqiza, lili) are town who wouldn't throw if a deal like that has been done

Did you even ask them? I'm pretty sure joqiza explicitly said he wouldn't do the deal

VOTE: shirou

@Chennis

This is what I talked about

I said you'll regret it most likely. There's nothing but chaos from here btw.

But I hate indecision so I guess I'm fine with this.

[Shirou]

I gotta say Autumn, it's pretty survivalistic of you to vote me when you said you were more confident that Menalque was scum than you were on me being scum as soon as I said I could follow Menalque.

You said you did suspect me on the basis of being Mena partner, and now votes me when Mena is turning on me?

[Shirou]

@Mena What makes you confident we'll have enough support for the shirou elim? Even if I go along with it, and math and you will presumably vote there, and he'll self vote, but others didn't seem particularly interested in taking the deal

I need mena to answer this too.

I think that at least (joqiza, lili) are town who wouldn't throw if a deal like that has been done

Did you even ask them? I'm pretty sure joqiza explicitly said he wouldn't do the deal

VOTE: shirou

Question by the way:

If you think I'm scum regardless of Mena, why not simply follow me on Auro to force my hand rather than vote me directly here?

You said you didn't want to vote Auro because Mena was scum regardless of my alignment, but now...?

[Shirou]

Menalque, I'm open to discussion on anyone that isn't Chennis today.

I think going for AL is suboptimal due to the pairing mechanics, but at this point you guys have tired me out. Let's do the suboptimal thing if you/Joqi seem to want it. At least we'll have 3 votes rather than now the pitiful Auro wagon because Chennis can't make up their mind.

Which means, if you think I'm scum, it's Shirou/Chennis.

If you think it's Shirou/Chennis we can talk about it, I guess I may get limmed, and my unique answer is that you stop throwing votes and simply vote Auro in the next day.

[Shirou]

I thought infinity was casing scum!mena, what happened to that

Who knows.

That felt like the first "no question asked scummy" post from Infinity to me

It doesn't make sense considering his previous progression that I'm only scum if Mena is.

[Shirou]

would eliminate today: infinity, auro, math
would not eliminate today: shirou, mena, joqiza, flopz, chennis

want to do infinity in that case?

I guess it's kinda "suboptimal" but I would be ok with moving the pairing to "Math / Mena" aren't scum together considering Mena opened going for Math here + was going for Math close to Johnny flip.

For what it's worth, I don't believe infinity has high odds of being scum, I think they exist, but dunno, Auro to me still likely wins the game.

However, a town!Autumn flip should make Joqi reconsider at least.

If Joqi can come with us tomorrow on Auro up to E-1 (If Chennis doesn't mess this up again by the way), I think it's easier to force someone else to go along with us, like for example math offering the hammer early.

I guess we can wait Joqi to see if comes to Auro today, but my hopes at the moment are already low.

[Shirou]

There's two views in the game in my opinion:

Me/Chennis on Auro/Flopz, Joqi/Mena on Infinity.

I'm ok with going along with the other option for today considering we've 4 eliminations.

I didn't want to explain I would concede to the other options if time ran out/people unvoted, but I can't afford to dedicate time / camp this thread anymore. I had up to my birthday free and that was it.

I thought I would play slow from D2 forward, but I saw the opportunity to speedrun this, I tried to take it, but this is the result, and honestly, I think it falled off with Chennis unvote, but I don't hold it against him or anything. It was a fair take.

[Shirou]

Look here:

VOTE: Autumn

You've 2 options Mena according to your PoV:

- Vote Autumn here together with me

- Reverse UNO card and vote me with Autumn

This should already tell you that 1/2 or 1/3 of your solve is wrong, and I'm gonna proceed to tell you that if you think I bussed Math in EoD D1 when my other partner just flipped, you're wrong again and I can prove going for Math as well today.

My partner, if I'm ever scum, is Chennis and only Chennis. Anyone, get this through your head: My partner if I'm scum is Chennis, and if you could just take my word for the TR on Chennis if I flip town, I would appreciate it, because people were also SRing Chennis for some reason while I had him as strong TR.

Therefore, the unique thing I ask of you if you do me today, or if you do infinity, or if you do math, is to go into Auro tomorrow. That's all. I'm gonna leave Flopz alone for now, you guys can solve it out if I'm wrong on Auro.

Just Auro, let's flip whoever majority wants today, including me, but let's do Auro tomorrow.

A trade of one per one, fair and balanced as all things should be.

[Shirou]

I'll retract my vote on Autumn if you don't agree with me on doing Auro tomorrow, no caps.

Sadly I don't even know who to work with in that case, because Joqi isn't someone up to trades, he just follows his intuition and that's fair, I was just trying to forcibly drag him along on my votes but he can't be swayed because he doesn't see the benefit in exchanging vote currency, which in my opinion is valuable in a social game but to each their own.

[Shirou]

This is the unique thing I ask of you if I flip town:

- Go for Auro in the next day

- Consider Chennis town until last day

This is all, if we agree to this I'm fine with my elimination even today although I'll not self-vote without Auro going first.

It's 8:15 PM here in my clock, there's 4 remaining hours for the deal on Auro, and I can, maybe, extend it up to hear what Joqi has to say here, but if I don't have faith he's seeing scum!Auro I'm calling the deal off.

[Shirou]

but I want to add the condition that if auro is town then you’re the D4 elim but you get to choose the D5 elim

I need to think about it but my problem with this is that unless AL is specifically scum, I get no chance to prove or not my theory of one scum in [Auro/Flopz], which means any scum in our "townblock" gets to endgame. Which is why I proposed the PoE that I did.

I don't think we can discuss this tomorrow probably because...if I'm ever too active here tomorrow it means I'm slacking off on what I should do to be here, because I shouldn't be here too much tomorrow, but either way...

[Shirou]

I don't know Mena, genuine question -

You think I'm particularly good scum according to your past posts

I'm proving to you that Chennis is my partner no caps if I'm ever scum here. At maximum you can think about [Lilith, Shirou] but I wouldn't be this associative to Lilith when she already had a strong standing in the game.

Do you think I make this mess of a plan to get rid of [Auro , Flopz] first, even offer my own slot and get it to E-1, when I could simply ride the waves with Chennis completely out of the picture in D2 start?

Like, you need to believe I'm intentionally playing a bad scum game. There's no logic you can use here to say this is the optimal course of actions Mena. This is beyond WIFOM, one more and scum team loses the game, this isn't the moment to play gambits to put attention on us, the gambit would have been trying to squeeze credit out of Johnny and ride the LHFs in the next days, not hard buss our partner and offer my head in trade of another slot.

Mena, I know it's super hard to see how flawed our thinking is sometimes when we're in a tunnel, but give it a long thought not about your read on my tone or surface level actions, what the hell is exactly my plan here as scum with Chennis considering my actions.

If there's one single thing consistent about my scum games, up to my very very first scum game in this site, is that I always make plans.

Do I look like a man that has big plans here with offering my head, outing Chennis as the unique possible partner to me, and proposing a plan of not limming into the LHFs?

Mena, the town credit simply isn't worth it. This WIFOM I would create with this takes me nowhere. I'm not this foolish.

There's only meaning in WIFOM or so if at the end you are better off than other options. I don't see how I would be better off in this than other options.

[Shirou]

Tho after Shirou is all but guaranteeing they'll self-vote if there's a D3, I see no reason to join this as it's two bird one stone.

VOTE: Auro

This doesn't surprise me as much for reasons I can't be bothered to explain, but sure

VOTE: Auro

Now we wait Joqi decision. I can go back to Infinity if it needs to be in case this dismantles.

I guess we've enough now for Chennis to hammer, but I doubt Chennis hammers here. Chennis is too cautious for that.

[Shirou]

Shirou's saying that Shirou/Chenn/Math + Auro/Flopz is one pool where there's 2 scum at one point based on the townblock then ALSO say that if me and Auro flip town they'd be more interested in pushing in the townblock afterwards. Completely ignoring Chenn there.

Town block does include reconsidering Chennis, but I'm not sure how to even proceed into reconsidering Chennis/Lilith/Joqi. They are...just town to me.

Which is why I think we can win the game early either way.

[Shirou]

In a hypothetical team of Auro / Flopz, I would buss here as well to try to distance as last option

They need to get through 4 eliminations, they need to distance themselves to make the "Auro/Flopz" team unbelievable, it's a now or never situation.

Maybe though, this is just town!Flopz that has their own opinions.

Maybe though, this is just scum!Flopz that wants to get two free eliminations, but the deal includes him as a third one, so in the end it's either gonna be the playerlist betraying me in this scenario and not doing him when they should, or dunno.

I'm ok voting together with him. Whatever this game is too much of a mess now and I told you @Chennis.

[Shirou]

Even if you think Flopz was the scumz, you should have kept your vote on Auro.

I said it before, I'll repeat. Too much of anything is most of the time negative.

This includes cautious.

If we had let someone else hammer, doesn't matter the scum in Auro/Flopz it would probably go sooner or later, but I can see a lot more leeway for scum!Flopz to get away now.

[Shirou]

Hopkirk is just yelling at me becuase he's saying that Shirou's alternative strategy of voting off Me/Auro/Maths which leaves Shirou/Chennis/Lilith, Menal, Joqiza/Infinity and that Him and Chennis will never be be the least scummy of the townblock so he has to take a crazy gambit or he just loses

What the fuck

Mena/Joqi/Lilith are all up to eliminate Infinity

Infinity > Math > Auro > Flopz is 4 eliminations for Chennis/Shirou. Exactly more or less the plan I would recommend us doing.

But again, maybe you're just scum.

[Shirou]

There's enough LHFs here in this game for a Chennis/Shirou team that I never had to get myself dirtier than normal.

I don't expect anyone to understand this however.

I've talked before but looking at the game objectively, and seeing what's the best mechanical endgame for scum!Shirou is a decent way of trying to read me rather than tone, activity, associatives or etc.

The above is literally what I would do and relax if I was scum. This game isn't hard enough if I was scum with Chennis to need all this gambit, and I wouldn't do it for fun because it involves no power roles, and I only have fun fakeclaiming mechanical stuff rather than involving myself on drama.

[Shirou]

3 hours, 15 minutes until midnight on my clock by the way. You can check the consistency in my previous posts.

I do plan maybe to extend the deadline a bit now that we've something going, but you never know.

all scum!Shirou believers, better get your chips in before I call it off.

[Shirou]

We don't believe you will self-vote tomorrow but it's fine, prove us wrong

This is the correct conclusion about a scum!Shirou, except that I wouldn't do Auro > not self-vote.

I would simply propose BoP in Auro but never bother to actually see it through, but be less aggressive/more emotional to try to sound town.

Killing Auro today is winning against the gamble that scum!Shirou makes, there's no way I could talk my way off the noose tomorrow as scum.

/shrug

We wait now I guess.

[Shirou]

@Flopz

You do realize however that you're the third in the list right?

You do realize that tomorrow, the self-vote is according to you being the third, right?

[Shirou]

@Flopz

You do realize however that you're the third in the list right?

You do realize that tomorrow, the self-vote is according to you being the third, right?

Yes, we are happy to popcorn it

I like you guys style.

Spicy.

[Shirou]

@Chennis

If you've noticed clearly now that my slot is getting limmed if we don't do Auro, and that it just gives more leeway for scum!Flopz to get away, can you place your vote on Auro?

We may not get a third opportunity, since this is already the second one.

[Shirou]

I can probably get you alive up to D5 Chennis, and I can give you much ammunition to go for scum!Flopz in D4 if we're wrong on Auro here, but you need to compromise.

[Shirou]

this is faster than i wanted it to be, but if we're gonna go fast let's not let d1 shit repeat

yup

like, this isn't bragging or anything, but I think one of the reasons as scum my plans work out sometimes is because I can just...somehow "feel" the room temperature to know what to expect next.

Probably everyone can do it though, I don't think it should be that hard.

But yeah now there's nothing waiting for us but hell if we don't do the chain. Sorry if I'm wrong.

[Shirou]

Pichus are ineherently evil dear Chennis.

Such foul-looking creatures could never roll a green pm card.

[Shirou]

It wasn't hammer I'm not allowing Auro to try fake townspelling

[Shirou]

Never ever let potential scum the chance to fake townslip. Never.

Auro (4) - Lilith, Flopz, Shirou, Chennis

5 to eliminate.

[Shirou]

Auro is on E-1.

I'm hopefully waiting for Joqi/Math to come around and see their opinions.

[Shirou]

that was a good pagetop if i say so myself.

It had a noble feeling to it.

[Shirou]

it's like "omg what chennis is doing in the moment COULD be construed as scum if you bend over 180 degrees so let me do exactly that!!" yes im scum and NOW, D2, is my MASTER PLAN and EVERYTHING that happened in D1 was just MISDIRECTION

I'm officially an idiot if you're scum but I'm cracking so hard to this.

[Shirou]

Chennis is it wrong I'm gonna have fun self-voting tomorrow if Auro is town?

I don't think he's but still

I guess they'll still argue "look, this is another DISTRACTION by scum!Shirou, he's trying to look LAMIST and make us lose faith", but I hope at least they will read my posts in D4, and not gun for you/ go for Flopz in that universe.

[Shirou]

"scum!Shirou offered his head in a silver plate when everyone was comfortable with him on Day 2 opening, just so that he could get the super hard miselimination of Auro, a player no one town read, but you see, that's where the plan begins, because now that all the attention is on him in D3, he's gonna talk his way out of the self-vote for 3 days straight".

I could see how this does make sense if Auro was a threatening slot to a team of Shirou/Chennis, but like...Auro was focusing on Lilith...

But I digress. I do understand it's hard to see the flaws on the reasoning when you're uninformed, just as me/you may have been overlooking the flaws on a case of scum!Auro, but I can't help but find the situation intriguing.

[Shirou]

i think its wrong of u to have fun playing mafia at all, i dont think fun is allowed in this game

I had almost forgot it. I remember more the newbie thread rules since it's the unique I had a good read of, but in the official one indeed there's the rule of "no fun allowed whatsoever in this game". I had forgot we had that rule away from newbies to not scary them away, say to them it's a fun game, and rejoice in their progressive suffering through their time getting experience and realizing the fraud.

[Shirou]

no we're obviously scum, and we're trying to get a scummies nomination by playing this super tight game and wowing everyone by winning in this tense atmosphere where people are lolreading us

I don't want to be petty because everyone can be wrong on reads, including me on you/Auro etc, but it's just curious to me how the consensus seems to be:

1) scum!Shirou is miseliminating Auro and talking his way out of self-voting in D3/D4/D5.

Rather than

2) scum!Shirou is trying to get town credit by proposing a BoP in a wagon that will likely not happen today, therefore having the ammunition of defense that he offered his head early in the game, but the playerlist didn't take it

I do think it can be solid to scum read me here, it's just, the motives for it are different.

[Shirou]

In fact, I'll perfect 2) more:

"scum!Shirou is trying to get town credit by proposing a BoP in a wagon that will likely not happen today, therefore gaining in the following days the defense of having offered his head early in the game, but the playerlist didn't take it and proceeded to miseliminate the LHFs that scum!Shirou said to protect in EoD of D1/D2 opening, giving even more ammunition/credit for scum!Shirou to push through the final miseliminations of Auro/Flopz after town mislimmed the LHFs Infinity/Math. A solid path to victory to Shirou/Chennis scum team".

The above is kinda solid, if only not because I could do a way better job of presenting myself as a collected/amiable person in my proposition, while I intentionally acted sketchy to seem the idea of a guaranteed elimination of Shirou in D3 more tempting to anyone that suspects, in other words making the suspicious on me from potential townies work in my favor.

[Shirou]

I have lost a fair share of scum games actually. People opinions of my scum game are mostly based on Baton Pass / JK9 ++, which probably may be skewed samples and maybe the paranoia around me will decrease eventually the more games I play?

Dunno.

[Shirou]

fun fact - i don't think i've lost a serious (non-hydra, non-bastard) scumgame minus the FIRST GAME I EVER PLAYED ONSITE. shirou can probably claim something similar. do you think we just.... allow this to happen for zero gain???

wait, didn't we lose that game I was talking about early with RC?

We were mechanically guilted which is fair if you don't want to count I guess, but we still lost.

[Shirou]

God, that game was a trainwreck in the last day. Mostly my fault I admit.

RC blacklisted me in that game and I only got around it by asking him in private if he could take it back since I wanted to play Baton Pass and I thought I had learned my lesson.

Now that I remember this, all of it sounds a bit ironic.

[Shirou]

I didn't say that it was BP specifically I think because of site-rules, I said in hypothetical, just in case mods are reading.

[Shirou]

fun fact - i don't think i've lost a serious (non-hydra, non-bastard) scumgame minus the FIRST GAME I EVER PLAYED ONSITE. shirou can probably claim something similar. do you think we just.... allow this to happen for zero gain???

wait, didn't we lose that game I was talking about early with RC?

We were mechanically guilted which is fair if you don't want to count I guess, but we still lost.

wait i do not think i was ever scumpartners with you

You were actually. Check it out, I think we were partners for sure.

By the way, very disgusting/evil of me but I was laughing remembering how I had fakeclaimed vigilante in the last day and would basically say

"ok guys I'm ignoring consensus and vigging RC" (RC was close to confirmed town in the game, if not confirmed town)

make RC go absolute apeshit over me and how they should eliminate me, drama happens, I fake calming down, everyone back to normal until

"ok fuck it sorry guys but I really want to vig RC"

RC go absolute apeshit again²

I had to do it because our other partner Inferno was being wagoned, but they were already associating me/Inferno, and we were 90% already mechanically guilted, and Inferno being limmed that day made it 100%, so I had to dismantle Inferno wagon by creating drama with RC, and hope that they don't return to Inferno wagon, but unhappily, the returned to Inferno wagon and I just scum claimed after the hammer since it was a mechanical guilty.

After the scum claim, there was still one or two players that thought they should "take their time" discussing the events of the previous day, but soon they all voted me and yeah, that was it.

You were bussed by me in the early days for me to get town credit. I tried to save your slot initially, but after I sensed that people would lim down you sooner or later I bussed you to try to make Inferno/me alive in endgame.

[Shirou]

is it bad I don't want to read your post Autumn...

Sigh

Look, you're right, it's me/menalque, and if you vote with me in Auro now, I literally

I kid you not,

literally

get automatically limmed in D3

while if you vote mena now, you'll not get his wagon at all, and in fact may get limmed instead because if I don't get my Auro wagon, I'm probably switching to you.

[Shirou]

I can never understand why you think it's scum / mena but isn't simply voting Auro here to force me in D3.

In fact, I've no idea how you can think it's Shirou/Mena when Mena is angling everytime a lim on me in the next days.

Sometimes I start to think you're really just scum and mena is right Autumn.

I can't make head or tails of your reads.

[Shirou]

Ok but I'm worried that you're town and mena is scum atm

what are the possible mena partners in this case

it's not mathblade, let's not go wifom route.

who is it?

Chennis?

Lilith?

Joqi?

or literally again inside Auro / Flopz which means you should vote with me.

If I'm not scum with him, it's literally inside Auro/Flopz again unless you disagree with Lilith/Joqi/Chennis.

If you disagree with town!Chennis at least for the next 2 days, you think scum!Chennis bussed his partner instead of taking your head easily in D1.

I don't know what to say. I truly don't. Maybe you're scum idk.

This game feels insane.

[Shirou]

It's either Shirou/Mena or Auro/Mena or Flopz/Mena

You can counter all of those voting with me Autumn. Literally.

The unique one you can't counter is Chennis/Mena, while Chennis is one of the responsible slots for your wagon not getting through D1, and either way you can think about Chennis/Mena later no? Especially given Mena is throwing shade on Chennis.

[Shirou]

ughhhhhhhhhh

if you're town how do you think I'm gonna talk out of 3 elimination days, especially given my partner (Mena), should be the very first one to vote me today and to push me according to his posts

I don't like to this, I'm not 100% sure I'm right on Auro, I don't like to shit on other people reads

but your read/theory here is literally insane

It makes 0, I mean 0 sense. It's worse than Chennis/Shirou.

You think Menalque did all that talk about voting me today/pushing me, and coming tomorrow he's just gonna "forget it"

or do you think our secret plan is literally,

I mean, literally

3-way buss for the entire 5 days of the game (in your pov), ensuring that our unique hope of ever winning here is town collectively all voting elsewhere without any scum participation

[Shirou]

Not only that, I've made it clear to you that I'm voting you if the Auro wagon doesn't happen, its 11:15 pm on my clock, I can cancel it as fast as 45 minutes and wagon you together with Mena, convince Lilith on it since they have you on their PoE, and Joqi probably comes along

You're literally instantly on E-1, and the unique chance you had of hedging on your most possible pairs (Shirou/Mena) or (Mena/Auro), (Mena/Flopz) is gone.

I can't with this. I can't.

I refuse to lose to scum!you from now on if this is how you want to present yourself. I'm seriously considering cancelling this in the next 45 minutes and voting you for the hell of it.

[Shirou]

3 way bus

No

3-way buss for the 5 days of the game

literally scum can't win without town all block voting the unique two-one extra townies on every day.

Not even sure how to win in this plan in the final day.

[Shirou]

I don't even care about being wrong on Auro anymore

can someone just hammer the thing away so that if I'm wrong I can get out of this...?

[Shirou]

I've given every privilege possible to the people scum reading me, and my death, which should guarantee the game for them in their pov, was still

not

enough to convince them to do it.

I can't possibly comprehend how I could ever convince people to vote Auro without this proposition now. It would literally never happen.

It would be another Infinity vs Mena day

or Mena vs Math day

and there's still the

audacity

of saying that my actions trying to ensure Auro makes sense for a Shriou/Chennis team

I don't know anymore...

If someone has mercy on my soul, hammer Auro because if I'm wrong I still want to get off this train. Good luck Chennis.

[Shirou]

I think there's a non-zero chance AL is Auro partner by this point, because I can't understand their reasoning/reads.

It has so much anti-synergy. It feels like he's slapping his yesterday "scum!Shirou" and previous "scum!Menalque" reads together and trying to make sense of the abomination, all the while also trying to argue that even in that universe, assuring a lynch on me tomorrow is worse than vanity voting Menalque when no one is gonna follow him, and everything indicates I'm gonna reunite with my buddy Menalque on him to get another free miselimination.

Someone explain, if not draw, how that makes sense with all due respect.

p-edit: could it be ????????????????????

[Shirou]

I'm glued to my screen Autumn.

Glued.

Make it happen.

Either result is fine to me.

[Shirou]

If you hammer him and you're town, regardless of Auro alignment I like you as player.

I'm gonna look very idiotic if Auro/Flopz is town but by this point I'm convinced I can't hope to get wagons on them without offering my head in exchange.

[Shirou]

I can tell you this much:

You're never limming Menalque today here in this position. Never.

All the core/consensus town reads are in favor of menalque, against you. You can not flip the stacks. You're at best getting ignored, at worst getting limmed here.

Even if I'm completely wrong on everything, you can now get to D4/D5 and have a better chance on Mena when people start to reconsider reads if it happens.

[Shirou]

If you get limmed here by the way, the most likely final day is gonna be about Chennis or so. It's not gonna be on Menalque.

Joqi/Lilith seems much more suspicious of Chennis than Menalque. If you get to be alive in the last days, you would be a very valuable resistance towards scum!Menalque from your pov.

[Shirou]

Consider the glory of carrying this town, if you're town, when I look like an idiot when Auro/Flopz flip town, get self-limmed, and town is now at their last shoes by scum!Menalque, only to find resistance by you, and since everyone is considering reads at that point, your case on mena finally gets recognition and you proceed to get wagons/feedback of your case.

p-edit: thank you.

[Shirou]

Hmm..my stomach is getting cold...T-Bone...show us the truth...

[Shirou]

Sorry to everything I said in advance Autumn in case you're town.

I just wanted to get this wagon. This is it.

[Shirou]

Sorry to everyone in the game really.

But I don't think we could have done this wagon without this. It was hard even with all this effort, imagine without it.

I only hope I'm right/it's a happy ending but I'm not gonna complain if I'm wrong...

[Shirou]

i will complain if we lose

I suppose. I would have had a huge part of that loss I guess, maybe.

[Shirou]

Hello! Final reads: Shirou town, avoid Flopz and go for Lilith first, also have a look at Mena closer before LimLo

I'm sad.

[Shirou]

Farewell Auro.

[Shirou]

Hm.

In that case I do wonder if it's exactly Math/Flopz

or if there's scum in the core town, or something else.

I plan to still follow my promise by the way.

[Shirou]

Oh, it could be Flopz/Autumn

or Flopz/something else I suppose

What a weird game. Especially if Flopz is also town.

[Shirou]

I still think that even if Auro is town, Flopz probably is scum and just saw the opportunity for a double miselimination, but he's still in the board for D4.

I'm gonna take Auro words for it and rethink Lilith maybe.

[Shirou]

asdfghjkl;'

the sound of disappointment.

[Shirou]

did you betray the wholesome townblock lilith...?

Tell us the truth...

[Shirou]

I would never. I’m just incredibly peeved that auro’s bad read on me is rubbing off on people

Understandably but I was just proven wrong (apparently?) so I would like to consider Auro input forward considering he's gonna be confirmed town (apparently?) and all his contributions are confirmed to have been in good-faith.

[Shirou]

I may only show up a bit late in thread on D3 since I'll be doing other stuff, but I should self-vote in the first post unless it's hammer, because I want to talk a bit about D4 before hammering. But that's it.

I don't really regret anything, as weird as it sounds.

[Shirou]

incidentally this game would have been 1000% easier if you’d just agreed to be the lim if you were wrong on both your reads @shirou

Like the only reason I ended up being an obstacle on D2 was bc you were going to so much effort to leave yourself an out or wiggle room and that seemed intensely scummy to me

My memory can be wrong but I think I was willing to be the lim if both were wrong, it's just that before signing a "contract", I like to put all clauses there, because I still wanted to talk a bit before self-voting if I got both wrong somehow, so that's why I did rewrite your post, but I think I always did state that I would be the elimination in the worst case scenario.

I can see why me being wordy made you suspicious though, but since I'm someone that tries to honor contracts or exchanges, I need them to be written the right way.

Sorry for being bad, I'm glad I got to watch shirou do his thing

Would love to play with y'all again

We disagreed about reads but I did like playing with you infinity, see you.

I genuinely believe no one played bad this game, if a certain player was town it would be another story maybe...but since they were scum, they definitely did their job spreading chaos in the gamestate. I don't think anyone should feel bad here and it was a pleasure to play with you all.

[Shirou]

if you think i play the exact same as town you're grossly mistaken.

I don't think you do, I'm not trying to give you an indirect jab. In fact the reason I was suspicious of your slot upon replacing in was because I thought you were inserting chaos just for the sake of chaos and not something you likely would do as town where even if you inserted chaos in the game you would be trying to do something with it, rather than chaos being the objective itself.

[Shirou]

I can see that. I'm going to repeat again that I wasn't trying to offend you with my comment and I guess my apologies if you felt that way.