Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[VFP]

traitor doesn't know who the scum is, right? so how could traitor!lemons be fakeclaiming in order to protect a scum PR?

Standardly they know?
Isn't not knowing the Mafia outside of Normals?

[VFP]

Normal Guidelines
A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

is Mafia-aligned

knows the identities of all of the Mafia team

identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops
If you want a Traitor that cannot be killed by its team, make it a Bulletproof Traitor. (A Traitor that investigates as though they were town is not Normal, because the Godfather role is not Normal.) Roles like this should return full names (e.g. Bulletproof Traitor) to a Role Cop investigating them.

As a Traitor is Mafia-aligned, it counts towards the Mafia's win condition. For example, in the situation of 1 Goon, 1 Traitor and 2 Townies, the game ends in a Mafia win.

So if that was your only argument, I'm not buying it. Try again.

[VFP]

Lemons getting voted off isn't so bad for scum here as a traitor. It's worth the fake claim (Unless they are just a traitor Rolecop).
And I don't believe that Lemon's didn't know this. Going for the "Town slip" approach.

I'm not against a Lemon's lim here as it just shows that I'm right anyway, but scum Lemons makes that claim to save Anya only, to give reason back into the PRs.
As I said, particular posts from yesterday was not from town PR with a gun.

[VFP]

This is scum Anya.

[VFP]

And in fact, a Role Cop that is Town aligned would have a huge incentive to ensure one of the PRs is correct. A Scum Role Cop however wants to find the Traitor. And if Pooky is the Traitor, they are signaling to them that they know.

Okay, how about this for a solve? {Anya, Insidious, Pooky}, with Pooky as the Traitor?

I don't dislike that idea at all.
It's a plausible situation and gives reason to the claim today.

[VFP]

So after that I think maybe the bottom? These seem to be the only possible ways.

Pooky - Mafia Doc Traitor (Knows who to protect)
Anya - Roleblocker
Lemons - Rolecop

And if that's wrong then it's

Anya - Important scum role
Lemons - Rolecop Traitor
Maybe Pooky? Maybe Osuka? - Something main scum.

I'm getting haze on the second 1 and need to think. The 1st one would need to be exactly that or along those lines to mechanically meet the out comes from this game.

[VFP]

this is confirmed wrong because the number of guns in this solve is wrong

koba vig asteria neapo = 2 guns

anya/lemons = 2 guns

our dead informed gunsmith = 1 gun

btw our dead informed gunsmith said there were 4 guns

That's true actually.
So Roleblocker Traitor and Doc Anya?

[VFP]

@vfp what is the partner equity you see between myself and anya? or are you going based off of individual reads on each of us?

Anya is obvious scum.
Your claim feels out of place and looks to be preventing an Anya lim or a decent wagon growing.

Out of all of the claims I think yours is the worst with results.
Plus the fact I said earlier that your posting was not town mind with a PR gun.

[VFP]

you can keep arguing this point and i'll keep telling you that yeah, pooky was a suboptimal choice and that yeah, i was trying to keep a low profile. was it the best play to save my claim for today? i think so, but if i'm wrong it may be because i am refamiliarizing myself with this game for the first time since middle school lol

I don't believe you though?
I'm not sure what you wanted there? You asked me the question and I answered.
However, to you me and Asteria should be scum, so why does it matter here if I believe you?

[VFP]

are you seriously telling me you think it's more likely there's a dual roleblocker/traitor than that Dk is just. y'know. lying about getting roleblocked and has somehow had it work out for them for 2 consecutive days

Yes, I am saying this.
Weak vig fits more than N2 Rolecop.

Neo / GS / Rolecop
vs
Mafia doc / Traitor / ???

This is forcing multilple checks on players meaning that town are actually very under powered here.

What makes Dk lying more likely than being RB for 2 nights?

[VFP]

why so? i retracted my push on asteria after realizing i was being a fucking idiot and needed to slow down and read

Because scum is going to be in the investigation claims, not the vig claim.
Unless informed, it's a bad claim that early.

[VFP]

In ELo maybe. Don’t you want to make sure you don’t look suspicious as hell otherwise? Like what?

we're 1 day from elo I would hammer for lulz if I was scum

No, you getting lim tomorrow means that we lim Lemons if a traitor.
You not hammering is NAI.

[VFP]

p-edit because every-night roleblocker plus doctor is ludicrously scum-sided?

Roleblocker on traitor means they can't go for uniformed targets. Just because roles were given up D1 doesn't mean it's scum sided.
Mafia doc may even be x shot or something else that negates this.
I don't see the argument.

[VFP]

nope that's not how the game works

It really is.
Maybe you are town, but it's NAI.

[VFP]

uniformed targets?

also we have a week not 11 days but i think the bear is right. we can afford to pace ourselves a lil here

For example
Traitor roleblocker may target Vig, and so might scum to kill.

I'm okay to wait and re think the spec over.
I mainly want to discuss with Clidd anyway as I know we bounce our opinions back and fourth well.

[VFP]

Well I'm lost.
We have 4 gun claims on top of a 5th from Andante.

[VFP]

Maybe Clidd / Lemon?
I don't even know now.

[VFP]

At this point is might be worth Anya, Osuka, and Andre claiming.
Since everyone is already outed and there's most likely 2+ scum in the PRs.

[VFP]

In before another Vig claim...

[VFP]

Okay.... which means they are town so you're alive. But I can't say I believe you or your night result yet because of Asteria's claim as I find it hard to believe that towns have 2 killer roles. To be sure (imo), we can flip VFP and can clear you. For now,

VOTE: VFP

Why vote me to clear Asteria here?
Does this look like someone who knows that there are that many guns?

This looks bad for Asteria / Clidd.

[VFP]

that whole reaction check felt pretty fake to me. would not be surprised in the slightest if VFP is scum and Asteria's claim is baloney. mafdoc!VFP, anyone?

I'm thinking by flipping

VFP

will clear the confusions?

So it's either

VFP

or

Asteria

?

Looks to be trying to confirm Asteria here?

[VFP]

@vfp salsa was speaking in that post of flipping you to clear koba, not asteria

Ah okay.
I was mainly look at the ISO to see any day2 comments to or about Pooky.
I only saw 2, a strange "is your role town" comment and asking for more from Pooky and others.

[VFP]

i keep having trouble following your points and i don't know if anyone else finds that or if i'm just brain-dead today. can you walk me through what you're trying to say with 3525? what relation does salsa's quoted post have to the number of guns?

Salsa is Clidd.
So they know they have a gun as town.
At this point they see claims of GS, Vig, Neo.

That is 4 guns. I don't get the impression that scum has to be in the PRs for them as they are still very focused on me as scum.

I'm just saying, if I had a gun and 3 others are claimed I'm going to be calling out here. Not to mention they are 1 shot apparently so it's not like there's a downside to claiming there.

[VFP]

Who uses a 1-Shot Detective Night one? What a joke this game.

I think its a fake claim to confuse the game even more.

[VFP]

Who uses a 1-Shot Detective Night one? What a joke this game.

I think its a fake claim to confuse the game even more.

Do you think I'm scum?

I'm thinking yes.
Sabil doesn't look to have Pooky as a valid N1 check.

[VFP]

VOTE: Asteria

I think scum here makes Clidd scum.

[VFP]

okay yeah, this is solid logic. i can't really say anything for the first part about not intervening with a counterclaim because i did the same thing, but i can see how not claiming in this situation looks pretty scummy for both me and salsa. even moreso because salsa was essentially a VT at this point if clidd's claim is to be believed. definitely casts some doubt but i agree with pooky that it's a pretty monumentally stupid fakeclaim when you could just, you know. keep your damn mouth shut

At least with you not CC (however sus it all is) you hadn't used your power yet if town.

[VFP]

Although some checks don't clear, I'm happy to place Pooky as hardstuck town at this point.

[VFP]

right. i weighed the odds and decided a check was better, which it probably would've been if i had shed some light on asteria.

why do you think their flip gives us info on clidd?

Salsa looked to wanting to lim me more and looks to be using that to confirm asteria.
Maybe my interpretation is wrong but thays how I read it.

[VFP]

UNVOTE: asteria

Okay ill hold off with a vote for now.

[VFP]

But you soft-claimed on your 1st post, how this will help the town as there is a high chance you'll night-killed early?
Again, I'll give you a Day 1 pass as there is a chance you can be a TPR, but you have to show your night result on Day 2.

We're not getting Robert any more? Like, sure I don't tr Dragons, but Robert is bleeding scum here... and the resistance to a Robert elim?? what is going on

He claimed PR like you, if you get a chance, he should too.

I'm willing to give anyone a pass doesn't mean I townread them. As the town doesn't know who is who, we can't be 100% sure. So not eliminating you/Robert M Hunter in Day 1 as you both claimed TPR, is a good move for town imo.

I'm not fully sure how I take these posts.
It seems Salsa believed Andante but not Robert. That's a bit of a positive.

Doesn't seem to have any concern when Dk claims vig though. But maybe in the mindset of Robert as scum lying.
Pooky isn't an unreasonable target for Salsa given the posts day 1.
If Robert was scum tracker it would make sense for Salsa to not check here.

[VFP]

i don't think salsa is the type of player to fake this do you vfp

like she either got pepper sprayed as wolf which is hard to experience or she was getting mad as town which is far more likely

I tend not to use AtE as AI.
All this suggests is that Clidd and Osuka aren't scum together for me.

But I do feel better on the slot after re reading day 1.

Day 1 looks TPR play
Day 2 looks not TPR play.

The problem is as a replace we lose the option to understand the thinking behind the check, the reactions etc.
I'm pretty stuck right now.

[VFP]

doesnt rolecop return vanilla for mafia goon?

A mafia goon would also have a gun.
Maybe the wording is a scum tell here, but Lemons as town this would be confirmed VT.

[VFP]

DkKoba [3]: Anya, Andresvmb, InsidiousLemons

Could just be an entire scum wagon here.

dude are you actively trying to say the wrongest shit possible

i'm really really really REALLY liking the idea of putting your head on the chopping block today

So you are calling all of these town?
Good to know after flips as you're high on my list to lim outside the current PRs.

[VFP]

how does lemons know i am a vanilla townie !?!?

Because the confirmed GS checked you for a gun?
And you didn't have a gun...

[VFP]

???????????

how the fuck does lemons claim protect anya?

It's not hard to read, but ill say again.
Puts the focus back into the PR claims.

And Anya didn't claim a PR. Crazy, I know.

[VFP]

again - how does the rolecop claim protect anya?

Again, reading is hard.
Understanding standard tactics even harder apparently.

[VFP]

Well thats all claimed now I think?
So 1 scum in
Me, Pooky, Anya, Osuka, and Andre.
I'm happy with Pooky town there.

So from the 4 PR claims we have 2 with no further actions and 2 with actions.
It may be worth looking at between Lemons and Clidd.

If we did his a roleblocker today then we get a result one way or another.
Although I think I may favour the active roles being where scum are now.

Lemons is looking like they are trying to solve the game which is a plus.

[VFP]

anya and osuka nowhere to be seen

i literally worked until 2 am last night, fuck off

fake mad lmfao

Give Osuka credit, he needs to make the catch up look realistic and useful bless him.

[VFP]

being working class isn't AI

I'm not saying anything Osuka posted is AI really.
It was actually a very weak catch up ignoring majority of important posts to just respond to mediocre posts.

[VFP]

andante was the one who cleared pooky. not Asteria. and andante is conftown because she's literally dead

I'm not sure why this is the part in question here.

[VFP]

you can fuck off as well, since as previously established, the only reason you're not the slot who has contributed the least amount of intelligent material to the thread is T3

Oops I think I hit a scum nerve
Let's calm it down a bit, don't get over whelmed before your juicer goes live.

[VFP]

I do not believe that Osuka confused Andante with asteria given how much of a song and dance Osuka has made over it.

[VFP]

i'm not gonna make too much fun of you because i would feel bad, armed with the knowledge that life is probably already hard enough for someone of your wit

I see your come backs are just as weak as your catch ups.
Bless you for trying, I guess.

[VFP]

I do not believe that Osuka confused Andante with asteria given how much of a song and dance Osuka has made over it.

believe what you want, you're quite literally incapable of making a case to a stunning degree so really i already know ahead of time nothing useful is coming out of your slot. feel free to try

Nothing comes out of my slot, says the juicer who if town can't read simple claims.
Reliable source, glad your input has changed nothing that has been said by everyone.

[VFP]

have at it, i'm constrained because i've been warned several times for having said uncomfortable truths about other players' mental acuity and i don't want to be force-replaced because that would make datisi sad, so i'm just gonna leave my beliefs about you strongly implied

Thats fine, you can back down.

[VFP]

when has your input ever changed anything? i'm almost convinced that if you're town, you're not even playing wincon because this is truly the saddest attempt at scumhunting i've seen in a long time. your posts are nearly universally completely worthless

I think I upset Osuka here.
That's seems easy though, you just need to call them out.

I suggest you take a 5min walk around the block and when you are calm you can join us in a conversation.

[VFP]

I mean, who the fucks think that Neo says someone is armed or not?

[VFP]

if i were truly tilted i wouldn't be posting. you're just fucking annoying

No I can tell that you are tilted here.
Probably because I'm saying you're high on the scum list outside the PR claims.
And as a typical angry caught scum player you don't know how to present yourself.

[VFP]

I mean, who the fucks think that Neo says someone is armed or not?

andante was the fucking gunsmith? are you dense?

Oh you got it, well done!

[VFP]

sorry i'm mixing pronouns -- the above post is in reference to anya and anya alone

p-edit stop

You're right. I'll stop.

[VFP]

can yall stop ur prob both town

Yeah I apologies.
However, I do disagree with Osuka as probably town. I do think Anya is still favoured from the VTs but I'm not ruling out Osuka as that's my next choice.

[VFP]

Anyway...

So at this point all 4 PRs should give 2 favoured scum in the PR claims.

[VFP]

I think everyone claimed?

VTs
Me
Osuka
Andre
Anya
Pooky

Clidd - 1 shot Detective, checked Pooky N1 no kill
Lemons - N2 Rolecop, checked Pooky and got Vanilla (assumed VT)?
Dk weak Vig - no shot claimed RB
Asteria - non con Neo, N1 VFP VT.

[VFP]

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

clidd gun claim came last which is probably town dunno why he'd wanna put himself in that poe if he's wolf

also salsa was clearly town when she reacted to osuka

i'm vt

[VFP]

I think its most likely 1 scum with a gun.
A traitor of some sort and a doc seems mist likely as no gun.

So that means 2 of the 4 PR claims are scum.
If 2 scum have guns then 3 of the 4 PR claims are scum.

[VFP]

I think its most likely 1 scum with a gun.
A traitor of some sort and a doc seems mist likely as no gun.

So that means 2 of the 4 PR claims are scum.
If 2 scum have guns then 3 of the 4 PR claims are scum.

ready to vote dkkoba?

remember when they claimed to target you and thought it made you a wolf when you didn't die bc both them and you were protected by mafia docs?

remember how outlandish and unrealistic that was like we'd entered a circus full of triangles?

i remember

I need to go over each one again and include who they pick as the 2 scum.
Also here's my thinking. Although I favour Asteria and Dk right now (solo not partnered), scum can't kill in the PRs tonight.

That means that they can roleblock (if true) 1 of Dk or asteria.
If both claim roleblocked then asteria is the scum.

The other downside is, do we want Dk to shoot if we mis lim anyway?
I'll go over it more tomorrow but I have work in 6 hours so I'm going to bed.

[VFP]

(assumed VT)?

did you happen to catch the many times this was disproven or were you too busy "juicin"

also: will it help if i ask what your case is on osuka from an outside perspective? because i'm looking and i still don't really understand why you're so convinced he's scum. you've had a hard scumread on him since, like, page 7 or something. there was the bit about how you didn't understand/see merit in some of his posts early on (editor's note: 1835) and how he was being caustic -- i agree he was unnecessarily hostile in response to a simple request for clarification, but toxicity isn't really AI to me.

249 is you saying "i'm gonna tunnel you without regard for your good posts, only your mistakes" which is. literally just what scum do

you ask about where osuka is directly engaging with players but he's been doing that all game so that doesn't really apply anymore

your scumpool in 642 is 3 conftown and osuka, 2 of whom are now dead which is. interesting

this is just turning into an iso skim now but you get the point

everything past this point just seems to be inflammatory insults from both sides and a restatement of the assertion that osuka is "doing nothing" and being "a juicer". what is your case? are you just keeping your promises from 249? i'm not trying to ask this in bad faith but i'm having a hard time thinking you're actually looking at this player's post history objectively

I'm not sure what you assuming VT there from a Vanilla read is bad for? You got a Vanilla read and assumed VT. Thats not wrong, that's exactly what happened to what you're claiming. If I was a rolecop with that result on a GS I would also do the same.
I'm also not disputing that Pooky is VT and I clearly said I trust VT is cleared (even though a scum you means not cleared, but I'll still go with town then anyway).

And why do I still think Osuka can be scum?
Let me explain this simply.

The 3rd scum are going to be with Anya, Osuka, and Andre.
I think Anya is scum. I think Andre looks more town after discussion today. If Anya is town, that means Osuka is scum.
I'm surprised that you spent the time to try and debunk this.

And concerning Osuka, my read changed to town majority. You are taking an early post as your argument here, when I'm pretty sure I've said several times that my read changed on Osuka through out the game.

[VFP]

p-edit i don't really have an eye for balance but mafia doctor + mafia goon + mafia traitor roleblocker could actually be argued to be more plausible, since it would remove the ability for the mafia to coordinate a roleblock and open up the possibility for the doctor themself to get rb'd

Why would traitor RB their own team?
And this is what I said earlier about the RB having to be uniformed.

[VFP]

wait nevermind that second point i keep forgetting the traitor knows who the mafia are i promise i'm not trying to dumbtell

p-edit ah fuck okay lemme reread

I think Lemons is trying to push as a town tell for this and it just makes me think scum more.

[VFP]

I feel like we just have 1 scum in Dk + asteria and 1 scum in Lemons + Clidd

Right now I'm thinking asteria + Lemons as the scum team.
With a sprinkle of Anya.

[VFP]

So far we have concerning who the PRs think are scum (correct me if I'm wrong)

Dk - Clidd + Lemons
Lemons - asteria + Clidd
Clidd - asteria + Lemons

Just need asteria to confirm who they think the 2 scum would be now.

[VFP]

the interaction between clidd and asteria feels off to me but i cant really put my finger on why. clidd was more accepting of asteria's explanation than i expected him to be

[VFP]

Happy Birthday Lemons!
We won't lim you today at the very least!

I'm pretty busy until this evening.
I do have a theory that I'm holding until tomorrow but as a whole I think I prefer Lemons for the lim with Dk second for particular reasons. I'll do the post of the cons, pros etc later.

[VFP]

Asteria [2]: DkKoba, clidd
clidd [2]: InsidiousLemons, Asteria

Originally I was thinking that scum won't vote with each other like this.
But I think that the traitor may have fucked up and voted with the other, or scum just aren't fully confident in who the traitor is.
Otherwise I think we would be seeing 3 wagons from the PRs, not jsut 2.

[VFP]

so you townread me, but i'm _still_ in your poe? how do you put the two together? they're completely dissonant

Because Anya town means you or Andre are the scum in the VT's (at least from my PoV).
It's pretty common sense here, I think Andre comes off as more town than you. I would lim you before Andre.

I'm glad we cleared that up.

[VFP]

i think i want asteria today, but if you all think that's insane i'm willing to listen. i would be happy with a vfp exec here

I still can't see how anyone would ever consider you as a serious player when all game you have just said lets lim VFP, even though there's a VT result claim on me.
It really shows the level of Mafia games these days. I feel it doesn't get better from here either.

[VFP]

I still think asteria and Lemons as the scum PRs though.
You have to remember, Scum know how many guns they have. Before Clidd claimed, and before Lemons claimed we have 3 PRs (1 being dead). With just 2 alive PRs I think it would have been harder for them to lim in this so Lemons adding to the mix only makes sense to claim back to the PRs.
Not to mention, if Clidd is town here, they know town have another PR with a gun and most likely want to try and draw this out.

If we lim a town, Town Dk always hits scum if not blocked. However, the doctor may just cover one of the PRs in hope of killing DK there.
I still think a lim on a PR basically VT now is better.

Lemons scum means that Pooky isn't cleared (To clarify before I get some dumb question to why, the checks would have been No gun and not killed as Lemons would be scum. So Pooky

COULD

be a traitor or Doc).
I don't think Pooky will ever be scum here though, but this needs to be said.

The pool for asteria has to be Anya / Osuka / Andre. Outside of this is a scum claim.

If both Dk and asteria ever claim RB then asteria is always lying. RB only exists on a DK town. Andante proved this by getting a result.

Concerning Clidd, he reads the game carefully. It's just makes no sense to claim a PR here when we are already focused there due to Lemons.
I'm most confident that Lemons and Clidd are not a pair. I also don't think asteria and Clidd are ever an acceptable paring here.

This leaves
Lemons + asteria - From how both claims were given, it's high plausible. This would mean that we have a

Gunsmith / 1shot detective / Weak Vig to scums Doc / Traitor / Role blocker.

Lemons + Dk - This is the only pair I can see outside of the pairing from voting. Reason being that neither of these are being voted, but both led the voting. Setup would be

Gunsmith / Non con Neo / 1 Shot detective vs Traitor + Rolecop + Doc

asteria + Dk - This just doesn't make sense for 2 scum to fake claim so early with at least 1 knowing the amount of guns they have, and the other having an idea or also knowing. Setup will be

Gunsmith / 1 shot detective / N2 Rolecop vs Doc / Traitor / Goon(?)

Clidd + Dk - This is the opposite pairing to voting. It's plausible. Setup would be

Gunsmith / Non con Neo / N2 Rolecop vs Doc / traitor / Goon (?)

Dk scum resolves the though of a RB. I haven't seen any evidence to scum having any powers outside of the above.
Option 1 does seem weak for town, and this is what splits my thought. If the mod is in favour of a scum sided game I think this one is the one.
Option 2 is highly town sided, I don't really like this one as much.
Option 3 looks more balanced, but I favour this the least out of the 4.
Option 4 is again town sided. This would be my second option.

As a whole Dk feels like the right option here as they are linked 3 of 4 to be scum.


Clidd - thinks scum is Asteria and Lemons - Voting Asteria
Dk - thinks scum is Lemons and asteria - Voting asteria
asteria - Thinks scum is Dk and Clidd - Voting Clidd
Lemons - Thinks scum is Dk and Clidd - Voting Clidd

A note to take.
I recently finished a game with Clidd where a N1 detective was in the game. This game also had a Gunsmith but not a Vig (Pooky was also in this game). It could simply be a role taken from that game for a fake claim.
But that said, I think Clidd would know that this could be considered as suspicious and he knows I like to refer to previous games for reasoning.
I haven't felt the effort I did from Clidd yet, but benefit of the doubt here it's still early days on a replace in.

@Lemons / Dk / asteria / Clidd

Can you list in order your views on scum to town within the VTs? (Me, Pooky, Anya, Osuka, Andre) I'm not looking for reasons (at least at this point).

@Pooky / Anya / Osuka / Andre

Can you confirm your 2 favoured scum PRs?

I know some of this information is already out there, but I want an updated view, and something I can put into one place.

[VFP]

I'm leaning town on you (Vfp), Pooky and Anya.

Not sure on DK (can't find good enough reasons to townread or scumread, but can be scum by PoE). They're null.

Leaning scum on Osuka and Andres (one scum between them).

Out of Osuka and Andre, who would you day vig now?

Pedit - Okay thanks.
There's reason for this, so bare with me while I wait on others.

[VFP]

@Lemon

Assuming that your elimination occurs today, do you have final reads?

We still have enough time to go over things here.

[VFP]

what do you think?

I think I agree with.this. but I'm probably just bias in the fact that I think there's 1 active claim and 1 used claim in the PRs as scum anyway.

also if Lemons flips as something like scum rolecop then we know we dont have a scum roleblocker and koba is guranteed lying

The traitor can still have a RB power. So it doesn't set Dk in stone but this is actually a very good point that I over looked.
I guess it's the same with a Clidd flip of a gun role outside of RB or Goon as well.

VFP, andres, osuka, anya, pooky

keep in mind though i don't believe there's more than one scum in here to begin with, so it's a bit misleading to put them in a linear order since everyone after VFP is at least a townlean. i wrote out my reasons so i have them on standby when you want 'em. i assume you don't want them yet because you don't want some of us piggybacking off of others, which i guess makes sense

Thats fine, I'm not looking for justification here really. It's mainly the top name I'm interested but the rest helps.

Can you explain again why clidd and lemons can't be a pair?

You have a mistake in my pairing. I think DK is town because of mech. I think the scum are clidd and lemons. That's why I'm interested in the above. If I'm wrong then it's clidd and DK

Osuka, Anya, Andre, Pooky, VFP

Of course they can be, I just don't see both scum calling out late like that as scum.
I also find it hard to pair Clidd and Lemons directly to Anya, and part on my thinking is Lemons get antsy on Anya getting votes.
Clidd seems willing enough on Lemons and Lemons is voting Clidd as well giving reason why over asteria. I don't think scum want to lim their own today and want to actively get a wrong target here. Dk would be an easy push to gain traction on if both Lemons and Clidd were scum.
If this was ever the case though, then Clidd is a traitor and maybe saw his buddy getting questioned and panicked. This would explain why Lemons is okay voting with Clidd but originally Clidd was aiming for asteria.

I think I have both yours and Lemons slightly wrong so I will amend accordingly once I have the rest of the information.

[VFP]

asteria plus clidd is absolutely an acceptable combination to me and i find it strange that VFP doesn't seem to agree.

So scum decide to push each others wagons (as the second votes) without attempting for a different wagon in the PRs?
Why is it strange that I don't agree with this in particular considering others also aren't thinking a different direction?

This part of the comment is just wierd, and you were doing yourself a favour until this point.

[VFP]

you have dk paired with 3 other possible scum. doesn't that make it the worst elimination in terms of information gain, since the entropy is only minimally decreased? if you have a lemons flip, for example, then your pool is smaller than it would be if you had a koba flip. how did you get to this point in your thought process?

I was purely talking about flipping scum.
I've made it clear that I want to lim in between the PRs not.VT.
Please read properly in the future is saves a lot of time.

[VFP]

I think I actually go Clidd here.
I was to the idea Lemons was the town of the 2 until that wierd comment but my gut is just saying Clidd is scum here.

VOTE: Clidd
Thats E1

[VFP]

this doesn't really follow for me. osuka is asking you what a Dk scumflip means about other players, and what your plan is for after the flip. and you don't seem to have one, or even to have thought about who the most likely partner is for Koba to have within the gun pool, which doesn't indicate to me that you really believe they're going to flip scum. correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the last time you proposed or agreed with a solve was back in 3435, before everyone had even claimed. i can believe that the questions at the bottom of 3938 were asked with the desire to formulate this plan, but by 4037 you've got all your answers and seem no closer to a solution.

Incorrect. Osuka was talking about Dk being a worse lim on information.
I have said that I don't want a DK lim today so "who is scum after" doesn't seem to be a fitting question here?
I don't think you understand the point of my posts? It's not to say this has the be the scum team, it's to help me go by tomorrow.

If you or Clidd flip town or scum today then I have something to go by.

I'm not sure if there's a language barrier here but I don't understand your point here?

[VFP]

VOTE: Lemons

I'm going to stick to this for now.

[VFP]

english is indeed my first language, if that's what you mean. I don't disagree that we keep seeming to have trouble understanding each other and i'm honestly not sure why. let's break down what i'm trying to say and see where the misunderstanding lies.

osuka is saying that dk gives us less information tomorrow than any other lim, which is true. he then asks you how you got to this point in your thought process -- the point where you say that Dk is the best lim despite giving us the least information. you respond by saying that you're only focused on finding scum, and that today, you only want to stick to within the PR pool. this is the part of your post osuka was responding to:

I'm not saying Dk is best.
I am saying that Dk is linked with my scum pairs more than anyone else is which should suggest higher % of chance to flip scum.
I have said, over, and over that I don't want to lim in asteria and Dk and said why. I also never said I'm only focused on finding scum. And considering I am talking about town or scum flips suggests this.

Osuka was implying I favour a Dk lim. That's the key word here, implying. Show me at any point where I say that. Because I can show you where I say the opposite.

Again, I'm not sure what you are asking here or trying to get at? You think that Dk isn't a good lim today and I'm not pushing this?

[VFP]

this seemed pretty decisively like you do want a Dk lim today, which is what my line of questioning is based off of. you say at the top of that same post that you think the scum PRs are me and asteria, but i read the post as a train of thought and assumed that the conclusion you had come to was that Dk was the best elim. i figured the reason you weren't voting them was simply because you didn't see enough desire for a lim to get a wagon going yet. then you said you were "purely talking about flipping scum", which solidified this idea. what did you actually mean by "Dk feels like the right option here"? i think this is where we're getting confused.

Why would I say I don't want to lim Dk or asteria today and vote outside of them if I wanted to vote here?
I have even said that asteria is my favoured scum over Dk.

You are selecting a part of a post to suit your narrative and its wierd considering my ISO shows that I FAVOUR ASTERIA OVER DK.

I don't think this is me getting my English wrong here but you trying to manipulate what I am saying?

[VFP]

Okay glad that's cleared up then.

Part of me just wants to lim asteria to be the NK tonight or the lim tomorrow and get out if the game.

[VFP]

Osuka was implying I favour a Dk lim. That's the key word here, implying. Show me at any point where I say that. Because I can show you where I say the opposite.

As a whole Dk feels like the right option here as they are linked 3 of 4 to be scum.

You have done nothing today.
I think a pile of shit on the bottom of a shoe has been more useful than you in this game.

Go be quiet else where if you're going to refuse to read the game.

[VFP]

VOTE: asteria

[VFP]

Osuka should have no problem voting here, and Lemons should have no issue here.
Let's just get this done.

[VFP]

if asteria is going to happen today, i won't stand in the way of an exec. but compared to clidd, i do believe she is a suboptimal choice. consider this my last push in clidd's direction.

If asteria flips town I think Lemons has to be the lim tomorrow.
If asteria is scum ill happily trade me for that.

Asteria town flip take the below. I'm not looking for comments on this as it's purely on an asteria town flip.
I'm going to throw 1 concern I have and that is Pooky unvoting Lemons when we started voting there. It makes me think Lemons scum can just mean Pooky is scum since Lemons is the only actual hard clear Pooky has. It just felt like not wanting to be put back into the scum pile.
And to follow up, I think Clidd is town.
Again, I don't care for comments now just use it from a town mindset on an asteria town flip.

Someone can just hammer now. I'm not sure there's much else to go with.

[VFP]

Meh

[VFP]

Probably Dk as Lemons buddy.

I'll probably just go with whatever Pooky said yesterday.

[VFP]

To be honest I lost motivation with asteria flipping town and was hoping to be the NK.

[VFP]

Does scum Lemons really keep me alive there?

[VFP]

If Anya is scum it means that all scum voted together yesterday.
Not sure if they do this?

[VFP]

Save The Dragons [7]:

Andresvmb

,

DkKoba

,

PookyTheMagicalBear

,

T3

,

Salsabil Faria

,

Asteria

,

Anya

[HAMMER]

T3 [6]:

clidd

,

InsidiousLemons

,

Andante

,

Anya

,

T3

,

DkKoba

[HAMMER]

Asteria [5]:

clidd

,

DkKoba

,

VFP

,

Anya

,

InsidiousLemons

[HAMMER]

Orange PR maybe scum / Yellow VT maybe scum

Anya could actually be the traitor here. Maybe bulletproof? Claiming vig, then claiming roleblocked tells scum who they are.
This would mean that Anya did the job of a traitor and helped with every mis lim.

There's also no way that the Dragon lim was all town.
Keep in mind Dk was the counter to Dragons wagon.

So any of the teams below.

Clidd / Dk / Anya
Clidd / Dk / Osuka
Clidd / Dk / Andre
Dk / Lemons / Anya
Dk / Lemons / Osuka
Dk / Lemons / Andre

Clidd / Lemons / Anya
Clidd / Lemons / Osuka
Clidd / Lemons / Andre

With Dk being scum here (I still don't think Clidd and Lemons make sense as scum) it rules out to 6 outcomes.

Since there's more town in the VT's than the PRs I just want to here their top 3 favoured teams.

[VFP]

Anya could actually be the traitor here. Maybe bulletproof? Claiming vig, then claiming roleblocked tells scum who they are.
This would mean that Anya did the job of a traitor and helped with every mis lim.

This should read as Dk, not Anya, sorry!

[VFP]

Me being the ''leading player'' on both town wagons spews me as town, by the way.

Wrong.

[VFP]

I like this post. Both Anya and PawnsGambit are on my FOS list (for now) because of the filler posts instead of scum-hunting. But I think I'll go with PawnsGambit first.

Also had Anya as scum without reason or attempt to push

Scumread: Anya, PawnsGambit

Left: VFP > Anya.

Never really pushed Anya scum or addresses Anya scum but has Anya as scum... But always the second scum when pushing someone.
I don't see Salsa/Clidd scum with Osuka or Andre though. So Clidd scum should always be Anya.

I just don't see how scum Lemons doesn't kill me? Even more so with my last post, standardly I always push Lemons here today for a lim. Scum want to win today so that's just odd to me. With me voting and the other 2 PR claims having to accept Lemons as scum by default, it takes 1 of the VT's to just follow suit and lim.

I think % wise we hit the right target more than not on Dk and this is our favour lim to winning.

I'm going to end up getting stressed with this in game day, so instead of staying up all night and making tomorrow a shit day at work I'm going to ignore posting here until the weekend.

[VFP]

Lemons you should vote for who's most likely scum out of Dk and Clidd for you.
At this point there's no threat to a quick lim on the PR claims if only the PRs are voting.

And it does help, even if scum is bussing it gives us a lot to go by and consider.

[VFP]

Well it does mean that scum are bussing.
Which suggests scum were bussing yesterday when it was just the PRs voting.

Something I'll look at when at my PC.

[VFP]

Is it bad that I just want to follow Anya here?
Is that the game started we're in?

If Dk ever flips traitor then I 100% think Anya was bussing for credit.
Scum want to lim town today but need to distant.

However, maybe it is just all PRs?
2 Goons and a doc. The Non con Neo and Gunsmith not seem so weak then. While keeping it mildly scum sided.
This could just explain the late additions of Lemons and Clidd. To ensure 1 lives to the end. Scum team of 3 already know that there are no more PRs with guns. This is why the Tracker claim died because they thought that all investigation roles were out and were ready to claim on the gun Smith. Most likely expected another town role of something, could have influenced their kill on Robert over Andante
What gets me to this point is with all 3 voting asteria without a care that both of the other PRs were voting or seeing asteria as scum.
This entire day looks scum theatre and I think its all of them!

[VFP]

This means that scum will always have to lim Dk for this plan to work.
Dk flips Goon (fits with the claim of can kill)
Clidd then has to flip as Doc otherwise Lemons goon flip makes everyone go "that's not right".
But it's pretty easy to turn up the scum dial in this situation. Maybe fake a scum slip if it comes to it? We lim the doc and go, shit Lemons was town!
Next day they lim a VT.

[VFP]

However, Dk has to flip exactly goon for this to be considered.
But I like a Dk lim even if it's not all 3.

[VFP]

maybe they're all traitors and using morse code to communicate with each other

You can mock but Dk goon flip means that I'm on track so far.

[VFP]

40% chance.
Dk has to return as has a gun.

Otherwise the gunsmith is killed. Andante coming in and saying that the claimed Vig doesn't have a gun doesn't go down too well.

I strongly doubt Dk traitor but it's an option.
Same for doc. But it is highly possible to have a PR role (with a gun). Role cop flip makes Lemons scum instantly though.

[VFP]

That's a fair comment.

[VFP]

No quick hammer on Dk really suggests scum here.
Anya has to push Dk as scum but not be the first VT to vote here so that's positive points for Anya.

[VFP]

Well I'm glad we didn't waste another day and lim Dk there.
Should have stuck to my Osuka and Anya scum reads before mechanics were part of it, but hindsight is a great thing.

Well done scum.

[VFP]

Vig claim was a huge gambit bc we believed a real vig existed but yeah.

Even if there was a Vig role, I don't think they would have killed you during the night. Just be the CC day 2 at that point.

[VFP]

Datisi

thanks for modding.

I don't think overall it was a bad setup.
I've seen games in the past where mechanics have caused the loss and should have heavily considered this.

Town just got unfortunate with who was checked and when. Another try on this could always go town's way even with mechanics.
Night 2 town could have 2 players with guns, 1 doc, 1 killer and 1 VT.
Something like that just makes it hard for Scum to win this setup, not to mention the plausible combinations.

It's just taking it as another lesson, don't always rely on mechanics.

The only thing I think would be better is that scum know there is an informed player, not what they know.
It's less of a town bonus and more of a town catch up when this information is revealed to scum as well.

[VFP]

i like the concept behind the setup though. it's adding another layer of misdirection that i think is very welcome in mafia

Yeah I second this.

[VFP]

So one of the issues that I feel put town at a disadvantage this game is how the standard meta seems to be claim PR day 1, or out a PR.

We had 3 PR claims day 1
1 - had 2 votes that triggered it
2 - town lying
3 - scum lying

Day 2 we had a fake guilty out another PR.

This seems to be a common act here now days and I think its because players do not get negative effect.
Robert being killed was a favour to town, but it shouldn't be something that is encouraged as town.
The reason Dragon was so obviously town was because of the VT claim, and that really shouldn't be a thing.

One of my first games coming back to this site, town had all of their PRs claimed in detail by day 2.
In another game, I was expected to claim at E3 as if it was the normal situation to do so. When I claimed Doc (at E1) it was pushed to know the full details of the role, and even then was the elimination on day 2.

Before we out right blame game mechanics its more of a question to the site meta imo.
Town should never be getting 3 PR claims day 1 regardless.