Open 811 - Lovers and Losers [Day 1]

[LlamaFluff]

Claiming VT.

That's actually not helpful in this setup, but my gut is that you're town for it. Congrats.

Its not polygamist where scum might make too many connections, plus it actually can help reads. Like how for me I know one of the others who claims VT is scum, get one good town read in the right spot and scum is just hung out to dry. This one puts all pieces out there. I think VV is just creating a very odd situation that would likely never transpire because he is acting like its polygamist (although from a subverting the setup intent scenario would be). While there arent a ton of things it changes (like chances of changing a vote based on someones role isnt huge D1), it does lead to one half-trap that probably comes to nothing, but with luck can be huge.

There is one other thing that needs to happen right after massclaim, but specifically not until after (or at least until we reach a point where even without claims we know what they would be)

[LlamaFluff]

i know it's not poly which is why i want the lover pairs to claim at the start. we know if all three pairs claim, there's two scum within six, and one scum within three, which makes reading and solving the game easier than trying to find three scum in nine.

Poly you dont massclaim out the gate because if scum isnt careful and set up who the "pairs" are they can be caught with too many odd associative tells. This there is only one pair which unless scum lies about their role, wont matter as much.

i also propose we solve lovers before we solve vts, just so we have more ics to work with, and so we can remove most of the scum from the game.

Lovers and VTs are functionally identical so it doesn't matter which is solved first. As such, we should solve whomsoever is most scummiest.

TBone, can you explain why you think there's a benefit to not claiming? The thought process is weird to me.

Its right that it really doesnt matter what pool we target from, even though being right in lovers would be better as there are more confirmed town (even though I think you just boil down all lovers pairs as a "player" and cede most of the power to the clear "players" if we hit scum). So why no claim from you?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote RM

Do you think players will read you differently if you claim or not claim?

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - What exactly changed between not wanting to claim and when you did? Just trap setting or something else?

[LlamaFluff]

Im just trying to feel this all out because maybe im more drunk than I think... so claiming is a null tell now? Im just trying to read where everyone is in pro/anti claim and how (if at all) they see it alignment wise.

I think I saw a few things you did which is why I really want a massclaim (pretty much I would have regardless) as I think there is something we can really capitalize on.

I actually kind of like VV being upset that you are reading him as town for reasons that any competent scum should have been able to overcome.

[LlamaFluff]

Just to center the game for me tomorrow morning when I am reading over morning tea (or energy drink depending on how much sleep I get) before remoting in to work

Lovers:

Jingle-RM
VV-Bambi
Ana-Kers

VT:

Me
Tbone
Klick

Every lover pair needs to summarize their pre-game topic immediately in as much detail as possible that still avoids modkill. To the extent where if you dont you die because of something that im really hoping scum is just realizing.

[LlamaFluff]

No really. Lover pairs absolutely need to claim everything they talked about pregame for something I see. Like now. As in back when I asked first time.

[LlamaFluff]

You all are making me hate this game by the end of the fourth page...

@Tbone - You scum or can we do list mod powers unite and figure this one out?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Klick

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - So anything beyond claim talk?

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

- Can you confirm all sent roles are word for word/link for link identical to sample ones?

No one should be worrying about quickhammer here really I think, but at least be warry of where its at. Like no E-2 unless you are fine with it going through.

[LlamaFluff]

VV vote isnt good. Its early but at this point I would bet on him being town if I had to pick from lover pairs. Once mod responds I will clarify, dont see it happening outside of TBone (or im sure for him me) as scum because of a reason im shocked no one else has seen. Something odd happened and either VV saw it as scum (or Goon partner) and is capitalizing on it or is town. I just think not many players as scum would think about it to that level where he is at.

[LlamaFluff]

tbf, i'm waiting on kerset and bingle to show up before i begin really thinking about stuff

Plus 1. Rational isn't making it easy tho.

Lets kill time then. Thoughts on VT slots?

tbf, i'm waiting on kerset and bingle to show up before i begin really thinking about stuff

You too.

[LlamaFluff]

I actually dont mind TB entry. I can see an argument against claim, but it mostly seems futile. I think even if scum he theoretically believes he is right that a claim is bad (or at least not optimal). Very much so not a tell.

Need to check one other thing... hold on.

[LlamaFluff]

Okay so confirmed a few things... look at scum lover example and count link to PTs. Its one. So scum probably never got a scum lover PT. Which is why I think what VV-Bambi did is way too complex to be fake outside of them actually prepping for it. There is a legitimate chance scum never had one, so if they werent aware the entire topic talk is fabricated.

Ah if only I got Jingle bells or one of the list mods or something and I got the be the bad cop to their good cop and shit. That would've been fun.

I was hoping to be scum with llama, but I'd have been happy to be paired with you or Kori as well. It's been a while. Town PM kinda sucks tho.

Not sure why anyone would want that... granted I have a knack for breaking open setups haven been the old LM for five-ish years (and poking around my C9++/JK9++ massive town advantage formula is no longer being used???), but that usually means you want to be town with me

[LlamaFluff]

Okay so confirmed a few things... look at scum lover example and count link to PTs. Its one. So scum probably never got a scum lover PT. Which is why I think what VV-Bambi did is way too complex to be fake outside of them actually prepping for it. There is a legitimate chance scum never had one, so if they werent aware the entire topic talk is fabricated.

Interesting.

From everything I can tell this is true, so if anything is fabricated. Outside of them realizing an preparing which is part of why I wanted immediate massclaim. If they didnt prepare no time to do so

Whst did Vex do that required previous collaboration with Bambi so supremely?

llama is talking about the tl;dr of our lover pt.

Yep. I think that VV-Bambi either noticed and prepared for it, or are town. I think the only other VT claim who would have noticed that it was missing is Tbone. So Klick-Scum to me means VV-Bambi town nearly to a point I would put the game on it. Because that is some amazing foresight to otherwise come up with what they did. But im out of touch over who is on top of stuff to not only realize they are missing a PT, but also not correct the mod and then fake a conversation.

Not sure why anyone would want that... granted I have a knack for breaking open setups haven been the old LM for five-ish years (and poking around my C9++/JK9++ massive town advantage formula is no longer being used???), but that usually means you want to be town with me

Venn diagram:

Want to be scum AND want to be paired with you intersection. AFAIK we've never actually played together, but I respect you and we've interacted in Open setup discussion stuff.

Well if the "willing to be the bad guy no-fun mod me" is now "want to play with" that works... especially as last few years of playing was almost entirely under a not that well hidden alt.

[LlamaFluff]

Why has the game been open for a few hours and we are in 1v1 mode where all parties are avoiding the other half of the game? Granted its been the quieter half for the most part... but just as important. Even if we get right lover pair we still need the VT fake out.

[LlamaFluff]

Also just as fyi stuff... Wednesday (family commitment) and Thursday (podcast commitment) I am probably not going to be that active, even moreso when impending "return to office" happens in coming months. Bad part about being one of the old people in the game, not easy to play from phone at desk.

6 voices are louder then 3. Plus I already went into today with the mindset of killing the other Pairs. So yeah this game really does start like 2 separate 2v1 games together. We just decided to focus on the Lovers and since we're the majority you guys just follow us I guess.

Seems reckless. D1 best move is still probably just scummiest player. If we hit scum lovers best bet, but would take goon over town lover pair. Massclaim is to get pre-game talk + try and mesh a scum/town pair vs neutral read a bit better. Plus being told my vote doesnt matter isnt something I want to hear.