Open 811 - Lovers and Losers [Day 1]

[Bingle]

i also propose we solve lovers before we solve vts, just so we have more ics to work with, and so we can remove most of the scum from the game.

Lovers and VTs are functionally identical so it doesn't matter which is solved first. As such, we should solve whomsoever is most scummiest.

TBone, can you explain why you think there's a benefit to not claiming? The thought process is weird to me.

[Bingle]

Our PT:

RM wanted me to be active and solve without outing and tried to coach me on how to be aggressive about solving. He spent like 8 posts on that and I honestly didn't read most of it.
I pointed out that massclaim was going to happen very quickly regardless of his feelings on the matter and that lover pairs are functionally hydrae. I let him know I was Jingle so he'd stop spending time coaching me, to which he responded that he didn't remember me but has improved since the last time I'd seen him. Given that I haven't played with him in like 6 years to the best of my knowledge, that seems likely. Both of us specifically asked yes about daychat, which I should've remembered/read in my role PM and/or the setup thread while helping yes edit this setup before he finalized this. I didn't because I had a bunch of ms PMs to parse at the same time this morning. RM mentioned he wouldn't be around for daystart and I agreed to be reactionary in regards to the massclaim.

The massclaim was in no way antitown and getting it out of the way early was a good move imo.

[Bingle]

Ah if only I got Jingle bells or one of the list mods or something and I got the be the bad cop to their good cop and shit. That would've been fun.

I was hoping to be scum with llama, but I'd have been happy to be paired with you or Kori as well. It's been a while. Town PM kinda sucks tho.

[Bingle]

Give me room to read bambi/VV, RM. They're non traditional players and I'm good at reading both.

[Bingle]

what do you make of Tbone, bambi?

[Bingle]

i say i want all three lover pairs to claim because if there's only two, both pairs have to be town

Who in this list do you think is unlikely to have recognized optimal play as scum is to claim their lover?

[Bingle]

Not sure why anyone would want that... granted I have a knack for breaking open setups haven been the old LM for five-ish years (and poking around my C9++/JK9++ massive town advantage formula is no longer being used???), but that usually means you want to be town with me

Venn diagram:

Want to be scum AND want to be paired with you intersection. AFAIK we've never actually played together, but I respect you and we've interacted in Open setup discussion stuff.

[Bingle]

Okay so confirmed a few things... look at scum lover example and count link to PTs. Its one. So scum probably never got a scum lover PT. Which is why I think what VV-Bambi did is way too complex to be fake outside of them actually prepping for it. There is a legitimate chance scum never had one, so if they werent aware the entire topic talk is fabricated.

Interesting.

[Bingle]

Oh yeah speaking of the word respect... Ration went hard on me for showing mercy? Do you know why Bingle? Like... Explain to me his thought process for me. He'll just yell at me if I ask him.

Yeah.... I can't explain his thought process. I don't know rm very well, although the only game I remember for certain he outed himself as a WW in a jungle republic game to try to bargain with town and was a very easy mislim because of it. I was in a hydra as mafia and we used the resulting chaos to coast to an easy win.

[Bingle]

If you think Bingle and me are Town this is useful to disarm us as you're trying to create rapport with Bingle after failing to with me.

Both VV and Bambi know better than to try to pocket me.

[Bingle]

Oh, I know exactly what they're doing. They're pivoting into a position to be able to use the people experienced in reading them to stay alive.

Bambi doesn't play mafia as town or scum. Bambi plays mafia as a survivor. To Bambi, the win condition is to stay alive til endgame. Bambi also should know that I'm working on pocketing her atm, because if she's at least being noncombative I have the room needed to work to solve the game. Honestly, I don't give a fuck if we're limmed if I can leave a roadmap to victory behind.

Vex is the one that's going to end up being more readable out of that pair, especially since he's on his tryhard account. There's also another angleshooty reason to townread them based on their tl;dr, but I don't know if I want to out it just yet.

[Bingle]

Yep. I think that VV-Bambi either noticed and prepared for it, or are town. I think the only other VT claim who would have noticed that it was missing is Tbone. So Klick-Scum to me means VV-Bambi town nearly to a point I would put the game on it. Because that is some amazing foresight to otherwise come up with what they did. But im out of touch over who is on top of stuff to not only realize they are missing a PT, but also not correct the mod and then fake a conversation.

I doubt that T-Bone would have noticed a missing lover PT for his partners were he mafia FWIW. The site as a whole has moved away from that kind of PM based reasoning fairly consistently to the point where I think only two players in 80 some noticed a similar modslip in Team mafia recently (Murdercat and myself). Kori might, he's pretty careful at setup reading and mechanically inclined, but I don't think anyone else in the list picks up on that.

[Bingle]

Why has the game been open for a few hours and we are in 1v1 mode where all parties are avoiding the other half of the game? Granted its been the quieter half for the most part... but just as important. Even if we get right lover pair we still need the VT fake out.

I mean... I think one player is in 1v1 mode. I'm actively attempting to solve two slots, one in each pool, and passively attempting to solve the other lover pair by PoE.

RM is just a very loud and aggressive dude, which suits me just fine actually because his presence in the game is going to be enough to keep people on tilt and readable.

[Bingle]

So... I think it's fairly obvious that LF thinks he found a setup exploit. Regardless of whether he did or not, do you think he shares the setup exploit as scum?

[Bingle]

also what the fuck is this post? maybe kerset hadn’t checked the thread yet? you’re assuming these things are townie when there’s another explanation to them that makes more sense

?

RM is assuming that kerset hadn't checked the thread and is saying that Ana being willing to engage as heavily as she did without Kerset's support is a towntell. I disagree, since ime very few people actually coordinate in scum PTs instead of playing an individual game, but you're clearly missing the thrust of his argument.

[Bingle]

The rest of their story feels sus to me still

What part?

[Bingle]

So... I think it's fairly obvious that LF thinks he found a setup exploit. Regardless of whether he did or not, do you think he shares the setup exploit as scum?

I wasn't asking this to hear myself think, I'd actually like answers.

[Bingle]

while i’m here, sell to me the fact your lover is town. i’m making a scum case for them, so i wanna see your side of it

Nothing he's done has actually had a scum motivation? He's barking at squirrels, but it's pretty easy to see that he thinks the squirrels are scum indicative.

Read his ISO and tell me that any of what he's said comes from someone who doesn't 100% believe himself to be right, regardless of whether he is or is not right.

[Bingle]

So... I think it's fairly obvious that LF thinks he found a setup exploit. Regardless of whether he did or not, do you think he shares the setup exploit as scum?

I wasn't asking this to hear myself think, I'd actually like answers.

imo yes, because if he says he found it and doesn’t share, we wagon them so they have to share it, and even then, the wagon would probably go through anyways depending on how many people, not to mention they’re single
also because if you’re scum and you share that, odds are you get hard-cleared and deepwolf to melo and win from there

Why out that he's found a setup exploit at all? Do you think LF thinks someone else is likely to have picked up on the fact the scum sample roles only have one PT link?

[Bingle]

But kudos to Bingle and RM if they planned this dissonance, it has me fooled atm.

FWIW, I knew the dissonance would happen pregame. We wouldn't have had to plan it. It's just a personality thing.

[Bingle]

so you think his “elim me then ana” thing before you had a chance to post and his 180 from me being town to suddenly me being scum comes from town?

I mean... I know it comes from town. I'm an informed party.

I think it's ridiculous, but that doesn't make it any less true.

The question is, does that progression come from scum any more often than it comes from town? To which I think the answer is pretty obvious. If someone is aggressive enough to have the thought as scum they're equally likely to have the thought as town.

[Bingle]

1) like you said, llama thinks they found one. why lie about it if you're town or scum? i already said why scum and town would do it.

If as scum you think it's unlikely to be found as town, why bring it up at all?

FWIW, I'm forging ahead here because setup wise if we can locktown a Loverpair and a VT successfully we win the game almost all of the time. This setup is just like dance game from that perspective.

[Bingle]

also jingle, can you confirm what rm said in 33 is correct?

RM did ask if the thread would lock and I did ask again later (and separately), yes.

[Bingle]

We're overthinking this guys. We can solve this easily. One Lover pair has no anime pfp at all. That's the evil party

Is the premise here that Arthur isn't the best anime of all time? Cause Arthur is clearly the best anime of all time and I clearly understand the concept of anime.

[Bingle]

I just checked and i dont see such rule

sig and avvy bets in games are explicitly included in the no outside influences portion of the site rules.

[Bingle]

1. That's an Isodive, not a case.
2. Why is "RM is all over the place" scum indicative instead of playstyle indicative?

[Bingle]

for real this time
Jingle why did you refuse to argue Vex? Is it too long or what?

I didn't?

I didn't read the isodive, because why would I. I did ask why Vex thought RM being all over the place was specifically scum indicative as that's what the tl;dr boils down to. He has no consistency and he's flailing about, which I agree is a true statement. The question is why does that make him scum?

[Bingle]

@jingle, to answer your second point, because honestly at this point, it feels very close to scum realizing they've been caught, so they're trying to throw as much shit into the air as possible to obscure things

Okay, so he's caught scum because he's throwing shit in the air to obscure the fact that he's caught scum. Was he not throwing shit in the air at the beginning? If so, what was the original point at which he was caught scum?

Like, you've pointed out that RM doesn't have a trajectory. Why was that scum indicative in the first place?