Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Venus Fly Trap]

it's kinda unfortunate that we're playing a game literally called perpetual mylo then >.>

the bulge i was kinda hoping i could outsource that read to you but:
- you still don't have a really solid read on him
- i feel like i need to firm up my read on *you* rn

so i'm not sure how viable of a plan that still is. i'm kinda thinking he's scum tbh, esp. that e1

r.e. iverson i disliked his push on you and his one on cakez. idk who he is but if the two of you usually clash that is something i will bear in mind. i still don't like the cakez push tho

for notmafia - i don't think i actually have ever seen a towngame of his where he posted that much (and that much content), so given that i retract the point that actually posting content is inherently +scum for him
but i agree that the quickwagon there with little resistance is quite bizarre, esp in comparison with yesterday. like it basically feels to me that yesterday scum *didn't* want him flipped, but today they do (or at the very least don't care). which doesn't like absolve him of being scum but if he is scum i think he's getting bussed
and people who were very pro nm yesterday (ahem dc) are +town imo

(aside i really wish all mods fully updated the op upon completing a game)

~ skitter

pedit oh more posts, one sec

[Venus Fly Trap]

nacho's wagon obviously predated hers so his wasn't, like, a *response* to scum-her's, so that narrative for scum-her just doesn't even make sense

i mean peta came in angling to defend nacho, something that i think we can both agree is oblique to his wincon given they've both flipped.

When looked at in that light, he may have just wanted to pocket nacho thinking nacho would wiggle out of the elim inevitably, or really just decided nacho was town before receiving his scum pm and decided just to roll with it and see where it look him.

Everything downstream of that likely wasn't particularly planned, which means mara could be whatever, although i feel like trying to counterwagon another townie there has very little risk compared to the amount of reward it potentially incurs, but we get into WIFOM there and meh.

more salient is that i think mara's own reaction to the nacho wagon just seemed really town to me and i'm having a hard time letting go of that.

yeah i'm not sure how much we can ascribe motivation to waht peta was doing given how he repped in and the choices/pushes he made; i feel like if we want to try to gain useful info from that slot looking at l/g's iteration of it is probably going to carry more weight for me

but i was noting that mara really doesn't make sense as a 'scum cw to townnacho' basically

i'm gonna be honest i'm not fully sure i get your townread of mara

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Cakez, there are two implications here. Both are bad.

One is that they're just fake reads from scum, split up to give the appearance of cognition.

The other is that you're not putting any thought into them at all.

i understood this as the first point (i.e. a scumread) and that you were calling him scum for making up reads in the moment
but rereading it's actually the latter; that's my bad for reading too fast, apologies

~

for notsci i'm kinda disliking that you're expecting him to have some sort of substantial engagement with nm and are dinging him for not when ... it's nm. this is kinda irkign me.

I will say I am very willing to flip both of these slots right now. (NM/NS).

NM's reads here are intentionally curbed to be reactionary and neutral on flup. NS claims to want to live up to his promise with Mena, votes NM, then shows a complete lack of interest in substantively engaging with the slot. He noticeably has not chewed on or thought about the game overnight.

like i don't think he's done anything anything, like, strong enough for you to have this strong of a read on him yet, if that makes sense

[Venus Fly Trap]

Also, I think the first no elimination is town sided, so I'm not particularly assed to jump on an elimination that I think could be a mistake

i'm gonna be honest i dont' 100% understand why the first no-elim is town-sided
i'm actually not sure that no-elims are even possible? or what would happen in that universe

[Venus Fly Trap]

Cakez is just discrediting me because its really hard to get to a scumread on me and not just get jumped on, maybe if you kill like bork? Maybe?

i mean i'm not sure his reaction was so outta line given your vote on him ...

pedit yeah that

[Venus Fly Trap]

it's in the rules, it's basically a deadline extension

i read the op like three tiems and managed to miss the bolded bit explainign that >.>
ok i'm not really sure i see it being particularly townsided
idk

[Venus Fly Trap]

you were trying to relitigate a theory that we had basically discussed to death, of course no one wanted to talk about it anymore

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

cakes can you explain in more detail what led you to switch to voting nacho yesterday?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

don't really understand why mena thinks he's a desirable slot to pocket. I don't think they're anywhere near the top of the townlist. why would Iverson be looking to pocket DC over bork upon entrance?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

indeed
and like i kinda said this last night ... but the conviction of iversen's read on notsci, especially in conjunction with what notsci had actually done today (i.e. while iversen was in the game/reading along), doesn't really match up to me

especially since he's dinging notsci for not trying to sort nm of all people

i owe a few people some responses, getting to that

[Venus Fly Trap]

iversen i guess like .... idk who you are but do you have an opinion on how easy it is, in general, to form a read on not mafia?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Threw shade

Criticized

discredit

tomato tomato

notsci that being said i really, really, really dislike your cakez take/push today

[Venus Fly Trap]

for notsci i'm kinda disliking that you're expecting him to have some sort of substantial engagement with nm and are dinging him for not when ... it's nm. this is kinda irkign me.

Early in the game he promoted NM as readable given time. He opened with a vote on NM and gave the spiel about being wrong and listening to Mena.

NM shows up and gives content. Notscience's response was not to ask questions while he has the chance, not to comment on the content given, but to unvote and randomly flop onto Cakez without any explanation at all until I hounded him and he gave some bizarre bit about expecting Cakez town to push him (notsci). When hounded he also gave NM being town because ~some~ (trivially easy to fake) content

This does not look like trying to sort NM to me and only some of it can be explained by his identity.

notsci you are the person who claimed they can read nm, right? i feel like you said that in ... jk++ maybe but as i remembered that i remembered you were also scum with him so that, uh, may not be a good source to cite

the thing with nm showing up and giving content is that a) by itself that's a rariety b) it's an utter crapshoot whether or not he'll respond with anything meaningful if you try to engage with him
so i don't particularly have an issue with the fact that notsci didn't engage said content given who's posting it

i'm also p sure that the unvote came just after mena voted and proclaimed e1, no? like i understand the unvote there too
the vote on cakez is lazy, sure.

but i'm not sure i find the interactions with nm scummy here

~ skitter
whoops above is me ^

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok i'm not really sure i see it being particularly townsided

i think the point i was trying to make is it was a vehicle to take the game back to square one w/o an elim and get more time w/o removing someone she thought was town, when the only other option would've likely been her

i don't know why she used that exact phrase either.

thanks i appreciate you explaining it cuz i didn't really get where you were coming from off of that read

but i'm gonna be honest at the time the mara wagon was a thing it reached max three votes and the nacho wagon was p inevitable ... i'm not so sure that scum-her in that position even *would* be that worried about getting flipped there *despite* being wagoned
especially since the biggest proponent of her wagon is peta

[Venus Fly Trap]

I would be very curious to hear more specifically why people think notscience is town.

NM cited tone, his tone was fine in Warehouse so I don't buy it.

the townread isn't as strong for me as it was yesterday
but it isn't really based on tone

it's more that he's interacting quite a lot in real time and like i can kinda see literally in front of me how his thoughts are evolving as more thigns are posted and as he gains more information
not sure he's that nuanced/quick to respond as scum if that makes sense

[Venus Fly Trap]

and isn't as like ~sloppy~ and kinda like ~uncaring how other people perceive him~

pedit no worries, i had (am having?) some days like that too

[Venus Fly Trap]

Re:Not Maf- I'm not standing in the way anymore actively but I do hold my skepticisms primarily for how easy this wagon seems today.

it's super weird in comparison to yesterday, for sure
as there was just no interest yesterday

i think scum are cool with it today
i'm not sure that inherently is +town tho

and i kinda want to take my time after yesterday and don't want the day to end too fast
and i'm p sure if he's scum here he self-hammers
so i do sort of want to put on the brakes there for a bit

[Venus Fly Trap]

skitter, did your read on me have anything to do with the Cakez/notscience pushes

in tandem

with how I shifted, or was it strictly individualized reactions?

I'm explicitly wondering how you put the pieces together.

very next post ^
they were mostly individualized instances

i saw the cakez thing and thought you were pushing him for bad reasons (and didn't ralize it wasn't actually a push)
i also saw your notsci read and didn't like it either.
i'm not sure the two really had much to do with each other really

and this might not be helpful but is sort of how i read (esp. when i'm skimming a lot all at once or catching up)
i kinda like a get ~vibe~ for what my reads are, but if i read a lot all at once i can't necessarily articulate what prompted it or where exactly it came from
and my vibe on you wasn't great, but it wasn't something that i was necessarily able to articulate in the spot of the moment and i had to go back and find exactly what i didn't like
so like i guess now that i write this out sort of both
like i didn't per se think the two thoughts were linked to each in that one shaped the other but i was sorting out how i was feeling about you and those were the two things that stuck out if that makes sense

[Venus Fly Trap]

My question for you is: Can you, in your paraphrasing, describe why the vote on NM followed by the vote on Cakez made sense to notscience?

he said he ws going to sheep mena today on nm if nacho was town
nacho was town
he entered voting nm
nm wagon shot up and he unvoted upon it being declared e1 (not that it was, but it may have looked like it in the moment)
i don't know if i understand the motivation for the cakez vote per se so much as notsci was just looking for somewhere to place his vote
but i don't really have an issue with this sequence of events

[Venus Fly Trap]

heya infinity

[Venus Fly Trap]

especially since the biggest proponent of her wagon is peta

i'll admit i've been thinking about why peta got flipped of all people but i have no insight into the level of planning that went into that decision
for all i know peta just yoloed the hammer and they decided because of that to get him out of the game
but yes, there's possibility for just massive WIFOM here i agree. 1766 still mostly echoes my thoughts on that

i still feel like mara could've taken a different angle easily as scum, but your point that nacho was much more likely than her to be the flip is something i acknowledge

ig
idk. i just don't view it as townie as you.

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think peta probably doesn't live through today with that hammer and that's presumably why he got flipped
i am kinda wondering tho if nm is scum why they didn't just let him take the hammer

[Venus Fly Trap]

I’ll try to be here tomorrow morning or Wednesday morning but I have the CEO of my company here over the next few days so I’ll be busy.

oh also! i hope this goes well!

pedit i mean yes?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Right now I'm at
{NM, Cakes, bulge} with {infinity, VFP, DC} Taking up the last slot. I thought VFP could have been pushing Nacho but Idk if skits pushes that hard when noddy was also doing the push for him, If scum. I kinda liked Ydra holding me accountable to reading them this game even though the game they were talking about, they were a PoE read. I also don't know if they position themselves on my wagon with scum partner Peta Jumpstarting it.

(her btw)

[Venus Fly Trap]

i mean i def don't want to draw things out to deadline but i don't feel close to being ready for the day to end yet

pedit who are the people you think could be scum?
and i think there's scum in the townbloc which is sad
so i think i need to reassess my read on you >.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

He's playing against me the exact same way he did against my slot in

can you elaborate on this a bit plz?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i still kinda worry that if nm is town we're just like, fucking boned

yes >.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

i really, really, really want to force the bulge to do things today before we end the day tho

VOTE: bulge

honestly. if nm is town i'm not sure that flipping him is gonna provide the reset that you think it might

[Venus Fly Trap]

I know i owe some people some things but i just dont have a lot of energy for this really tonight, i'm sorry

And hi prism, nice to see u again. Not sure i ever really would have giessed that's who you are

Bulge, i'm just gonna ask - are you actually planning on catching up at some point? Do u have some sense for when that might happen?
Like i'm seeinf a lot of acknowledgement of lurking and you explaining why that doesnt make you scum, but i'm not really sure what you're planning on doing abt it exactly

That being said infinity + notsci being the two votes that sheeped me like that is a little bit squicky. I think there's scum in the first four voted on nacho (i.e kismet/notsci/infnity + myself) and i dont really see kismet as scum so infinity/notsci is where i'm looking, and the fact they're kinda following me again is a bit ????
Of the two my infinity townread is a lot shakier and i dont townread her nearly as much as i did yesterday

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Would talking about anything help idk

i feel like you've kinda dropped off ig. like you came on strong day1 with your reads and opinions, and i liked that since it's hard for you to do that as scum
but you kinda need to keep doing that to maintain that sort of read and, well, you're not
like you feel more float-y

~

bulge did you just look at your wall from like two weeks ago and compare it against who was onwagon to answer that question

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

hoo boy that list is telling me my old reads are stale

misread this nm

[Venus Fly Trap]

UNVOTE: idk

what's prompting this?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Are we speaking again yet?

I’m really asking, this feels like maybe it comes off more combative than it was intended

i.. guess? I'm still upset. and I feel like you have a tendency to get toxic and I'm just not in a space to deal with that. if you think we can engage without ending in screaming that's fine, but I'm going to nope out pretty quickly if it veers anywhere in that direction

[Venus Fly Trap]

sorry guys I'm super behind, trying to catch up ._.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

Mara's nacho stance was she was trying to argue against his wagon without ever calling him town

i think she implied she thought he was town with calling the attach on nacho a chainsaw, imo.

it was all implication, we literally had that same issue from when she first replaced in, its really weird she was so vague around the main wagon of the day without really ever doing a town case?

I'm trying to decide if I think scum was all trying to push against it to ride the towncred.

ninja-
I mean yeah, I just think for someone so adamant nacho was town she did fuckall to stop the wagon (granted she is going to blame me and I do agree I am at least part to blame) but like even peta did more lol

I kinda wanna kill bulge tbh the more i think about stuff

her entire scumpool and her stance on nacho wasn't based on like, anything except wagon movement.

@notsci why do you think mara saying she wanted a no-elim was towny?

[Venus Fly Trap]

I can't find it now but someone said that going against the grain might actually be scum-indicative in this setup and I think I agree? either scum are not in the townbloc and have to break it up somehow, or they are in the townbloc and have to make it seem like they're not so they have to pretend to try to break it up.

@kismet can you talk to me about why you think DC is town?

pedit: yeah I mean - I thought mena's reactions to me were bad but I guess at least there was a basis for him townreading nacho that I could understand

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

I don't think we'd mind voting NM in a vacuum but I don't feel great about the wagon rn

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

ahhhhh sorry guys - skitter is MIA and I was hoping to catch up with her but I have no idea where she is, I’m on mobile for the rest of the weekend and when I get back I basically am going straight back to working-til-brain-hurts mode irl, so for the foreseeable future I have close to zero chance of catching up fully but will try to be around as much as possible

@bork scum are probably bussing, right? I think NM is probably more likely to flip scum than bulge in a vacuum but I also think most of the people on the NM wagon are scum (DC/Cakes/Momrangal all towards the bottom of my reads). Again, I feel like scum wanted to bus yesterday and I still think they do today, it’s the only way to get rid of you. Should we elim NM anyway just so we get the point? That feels like an awful trade to make. I’ll vote NM but I think I’d rather vote one of the people on NM’s wagon instead, but you seem to be townreading all of them to varying degrees iirc.

re: mena, yes, skitter is probably better at reading him than I am. I’m still hung up on his reaction to me and why I called out his behavior in the first place which reminded me of panic room. I think my view is probably skewed by personal feelings though - so if skitter has expressed a townread then I’m okay leaving him for today at least. the part you linked is fine I guess, tbh I don’t have extensive meta on him to know what he is and isn’t capable of faking as scum

re: mara, yes I think you’re wrong on her

re: initial townbloc, if you’re wrong on anyone then I think it would be infinity, if the rest of my reads are any good

are you townreading bulge? if no, what are your misgivings about that wagon?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

But unsubstantiated shade on both of the wagons while not suggesting an alternative is lolsy

what is this in response to?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

ahhhhh sorry guys - skitter is MIA and I was hoping to catch up with her but I have no idea where she is, I’m on mobile for the rest of the weekend and when I get back I basically am going straight back to working-til-brain-hurts mode irl, so for the foreseeable future I have close to zero chance of catching up fully but will try to be around as much as possible

@bork scum are probably bussing, right? I think NM is probably more likely to flip scum than bulge in a vacuum but I also think most of the people on the NM wagon are scum (DC/Cakes/Momrangal all towards the bottom of my reads). Again, I feel like scum wanted to bus yesterday and I still think they do today, it’s the only way to get rid of you. Should we elim NM anyway just so we get the point? That feels like an awful trade to make. I’ll vote NM but I think I’d rather vote one of the people on NM’s wagon instead, but you seem to be townreading all of them to varying degrees iirc.

sorry :/
i haven't really read anything since like wednesday
i keep hoping i'll get back into this but i'm like very burnt out rn

and this week is gonna be hellish at work before {said major holiday}

~
i don't think i can read nm by himself really, it's easier for me to read the gamestate around him to come to a conclusion wrt what we should do with him if that makes sense

and when i look at the two wagons nm's feels a lot ~ickier~

the name i like best there is mena, and i think he's just town here. he's also, by far, the biggest proponent of nm; if nm is scum i think mena is just abt always town because he's resolutely refused to leave the wagon and keeps trying to shut down the bulge's wagon, and also came into the game trying to get nm flipped. i don't think he enters the game like that as his partner.
and to me, the rest of the wagon (and how it's built) points to scum liking the flip and having decided to join - either to get the townflip or they decided to bus; i'm leaning towards us living in the latter universe because it built so quickly today and it certainly felt like the wagon had scum's blessing in comparison to yesterday, kinda feels like they came into today having decided they were willing to go there today when yesterday they weren't
all of this in my mind kinda feels like a bus, and honestly i'm at the point where i'm kinda ok with helping them in that endeavor given that at worse we'd be flipping town-nm if we're wrong as we're never gonna be able to read him anyways

also i kinda hate how prism is pushing bulge but proclaiming that nm is the way to go and kinda hopping back and forth between both

also i just want to say that i think that nm likely to actually post more than memes and monosyllables when he's scum


~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Okay I can vote VFT tomorrow.

skitter really does not like the idea of ceding this is a townslot. It has been very obvious that I am not pushing Bulge to be voted out, instead trying various ways before just giving up on him entirely for today.

Still can't put together anything resembling a cohesive extended thought on me to save her life.

Even notscience recognized what I was doing repeatedly but

skitter can't chain more than one thought together on me to save her life.

i mean, i'm not sure why i should be townreading you, and i object to the bolded
i was under the impression that you were also scumreading the bulge

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I quoted isos from both games in that post, what else you want to know? I already explained that cakes is shading and discrediting people,

and I've already stated how he's just trying to make the people he supposedly scum reads as uncredible sources and throwing out scum reads just so he can have them

. There isn't much thought progression in his reads and he said earlier that me being underwhelming is a scum tell for me (for whatever reason) and that isn't true, and he knows it because of his own awareness of my presence within the angel warriors hydra.

You keep mentioning that scum was trying to bus yesterday and today but you also overlooked the point that cakes was avoiding NM like the the plague yesterday and was more than eager to get on that today. Cakes was more interested in getting rid of Nacho than he was on of getting rid of NM, which Imo makes sense from scum cakes

- i mean yes you provided isos but i don't think asking for a summary of what you believe the similarities are to be unreasonable given taht you didn't really elaborate in any way
- i'm not really sure i'm willing to cede he's doing the bolded here
- you are being underwhelming. maybe it's not ai idk but, like, in the prior post you literally say you forgot abt the game so. i don't really have a problem with him saying that
- i'm p sure i never said that scum was trying to bus yesterday? where did i say that and who were they trying to bus?
- i've literally said that i think that scum are in the latter-half of the nm wagon given the wagon dynamics compared to yesterday. i'm not sure it's cakez per se but i don't know how you can possibly say that i ignored that

like what on earth is this post going on abt ...

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I think she has been better today but I thought her entrance yesterday was outrageously bad and unquestionably scummy. She showed no interest in solving or engaging anyone until some pressure built upon her. I think her response to my initial attacks on her was way too defensive. I also think she made posts that fit with scum!Peta (and Peta made posts fitting with scum!Mom). She doesn't even mention Peta in her entire ISO from yesterday.

I stated more than once that I thought pokehydra was town before they repped out so why would I talk about Peta?

wait why did you think they were town???

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

bork are u still townreading mom btw?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I have been very, very open about struggling to read The Bulge and while they're on the lower end suggesting I actually am pushing them with the intent/hope of getting them flipped is flat out not paying attention, this is not the first time you made this mistake,

and you have not even tried to fit the pieces

together even if they were fundamentally not mistakes.

I'm pretty disinterested with mafia in general at the moment and probably won't sign up for any games after my current ones wrap up.

then i am mistaken, but i was under the impression that you found him scummy, and i still object to the bolded
and for the latter point, i very much vibe that

[Venus Fly Trap]

And skitter something tells me you haven't been looking for reasons to townread me to begin wit

h, not going to bother making a towncase for myself to begin with though.

uh

[Venus Fly Trap]

bork are u still townreading mom btw?

~ skitter

i don't know. i don't think there's anything really wrong w/ her takes so to speak but she's just not around often enough for me to evolve my earlier take. I will point out that she never claimed she wasn't being underwhelming, just that she doesn't view that as AI for herself.

I don't really know where to go from here other than just to flip someone.

What do you think NM flips at this point?

i think she's very scummy and i kinda hate the way she's approaching this

~
i think nm is scum, we can do that today
kinda hesitant to vote the e1 rn unless we're ready to end the day tho cuz i think he selfs if he's scum here

[Venus Fly Trap]

I don't think suggesting you have not considered my slot as town is unreasonable given the statements you have made about me that are on the table. Both conclusions on me taking Cakez/Bulge to task for poor play are much easier mistakes to make if you are looking exclusively for reasons to slot me as scum.

ok this is fair; i think i've also made it p clear i've been having a hard time getting into this game for the past few days and it largely came from not reading as carefully as i should have, but i'm trying very hard to get back into it

i also am not 'trying to slot you as scum', i actually kinda liked your pred but am sharing what i got from you thus far
i still dislike your notsci push and i believe i explained why

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think she's very scummy and i kinda hate the way she's approaching this

i would probably want the nm flip if you want to seriously look at mom

yeah i'm aware she's not happening today

[Venus Fly Trap]

but i would like to make my thoughts known ^

[Venus Fly Trap]

i guess if mara is scum her plan to come in and call out everyone attacking T nacho (confirmed) for getting them off scum NM but then just attacking NM the whole time seems...ill advised?

yeah idk
i still have a very hard time townreading her tho

pedit i mean isn't the bulge like the only person calling infinity scum rn

[Venus Fly Trap]

For even conceding that over something more defensive using the "pred as town" as justification I want to go back on VFT, as unfair as that is.

If you want to explain why I shouldn't have expected more investigation & engagement from notsci after reading only the daystart be my guess.

idk what you're trying to say for the former, and for the latter, it's still mostly that your notsci push seemed unreal to me in that you were dinging him for not trying to sort nm (when it's .... nm) and that your scumread over how he was interacting with nm/sircakez seemed like you were trying to find reasons to push him because i thought his interactions with both of them around there were fine

yes i only really read daystart and bits and pieces otherwise, my apologies

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

this has not been one of my better games reads-wise >.>

~
so this is where i'm at rn. in my mind the game is kinda divided into tiers:
{bork/mena-ydrasse}
{infinity/notsci}
{sircakez/mom/prism}

the only two people i'm still quasi-confident on are bork and mena. bork i still think is out of his scumrange and i just don't think mena interacts with nm that way, despite ydrasse's hammer. it's possible i'm getting snowed by the people in this group but i don't think i'm willing to vote there today. if i'm wrong on one of them rn i don't think this is something i can positively identify today with the information i have, and these aren't the people i want to spend today's vote on.

i would say *if* there's scum in that group there's max one. i can't like make the game make sense in my mind if both of them are, it just doesn't compute for me.

then the infinity/notsci tier. my heart kinda wants them both to be town but i have a really bad sinking feeling that this just isn't the universe we live in at this point. i townread them both early game but at this point those reasons no longer suffice. in particular i'm kinda getting suspicious of infinity and i feel like she's dropped off a lot in a way that's rather reminiscent of her scum MO. these are the reads i definitely want to re-evaluate but probably wouldn't vote today

and then the last tier i think is the best bet for hitting scum, and i think there's at least one, probably two, in there
i actually like sircakez out of all of them the best: i like his entrance today, he's p persistantly pushed for nm yesterday, and he also has anti-partner associatives with l/g
i still think mom is scummy, and am just not convinced by any of the reasons presented for townreading her
and i utterly hate everything prism has done since/including the hammer

i would want to vote in the last two today

~ skitter

fuuuuck

[Venus Fly Trap]

i don't know what you're trying to say

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

yes my pick for the townie in the bottom tier >.>
i think your push on him is gross

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

well then
but yes i am strongly inclined to vote u today

pedit ty

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

You watched me openly blitz the town wagon and are just now realizing I might be scum like ???

Can you explain how that thought process on me just evolved considering you had 60 hours of knowing I blitzed the Bulge wagon without really thinking about it until I voted your slot?

surprisingly decent answer

I'm probably going to check out for the (real life) day but two different players cannot see a town motivation in what I did, are not voting, and Cakez magically does not see the town motivation only now that I have voted him. Utilizing his earlier answer, maybe there might have been town motivation in his mind as long as Not_Mafia might have been town since that's what he was waiting on before he judged the blitz.

rn I'm just trying to decide who has higher scum equity between notsci and Iverson

I am not unvoting you at any point so might as well let scum blitz it if I am wrong.

very much dislike this sequence; i don't understand: a) why he's your top pick for scum (or, at the very least, why he's the person you're voting today to the point where you're not willing to unvote him) b) i thought his answer to 2733 was quite godo and i'm nto sure why that isn't changing your mind on him

pedit: i'm not quite at the point where i'm willing to vote yet

[Venus Fly Trap]

i feel like she's dropped off a lot in a way that's rather reminiscent of her scum MO.

Can you be more specific? I don't think I drop off like this usually and I tend to have less conviction as scum

i associate more activity + pushing-ness with town-you and while you were kinda like that in early game it's the sort of thing i think you have a very hard time keeping up so the read has devolved. and can u show me where you think you're being conviction-ful (i'm sure there's a real word for that but it's escaping my mind atm)
fwiw panic room is the baseline i'm going off of

[Venus Fly Trap]

It doesn't actually matter what alignment Not_Mafia was when it comes to blitzing. It mattered what alignment Bulge was, and it is very clear based off daystart that Cakez was not actively thinking on it overnight and is improvising. The conditional was not on his mind at start of day even if it was in fact relevant, and it took me essentially gladiating him to have him work through it.

right, he seemed to have been thinking through while u were talking to him
i'm not really sure why that's scummy hto
(or why yesterday you were calling to like 'coach' him through this process and explicilty call him *not* scum but today it's scummy either)

[Venus Fly Trap]

How can you say you buy town!cakes for his push on NM but it completely ignore the fact that its probably the biggest reason for town!mara?

How is also everyone completely ignoring the fact that cakes/NM interactions are shit, the fact that cakes danced around NM d1 and pushed for me as a partner for NM, said that scum were bussing NM yesterday

but is now pushing against anyone who eas on the NM wagon despite having scum read me for the past two days?

he was on nm all day tho yesterday tho
where do u think he was dancing around nm day1? i'm also not sure i really remember that being a thing ...

WE ARE ELIMMING ON BULGE WAGON TODAY

he also literally wants to push the people voting bulge so idk what the bolded is trying to say

[Venus Fly Trap]

Im not sure about Iverson being scum here. I kinda hate the position were in because we now gotta pinpoint the remaining three scum to even win

i mean what's townie abt him exactly ...

and yes it's a sucky place :/

[Venus Fly Trap]

I'm pretty sure my statement above+statements on interactions w/ flipped slots suffice to answer the first question.

i don't think so, no

right, he seemed to have been thinking through while u were talking to him
i'm not really sure why that's scummy hto
(or why yesterday you were calling to like 'coach' him through this process and explicilty call him *not* scum but today it's scummy either)

With this I'm throwing in the towel for the night.

>.>

I am fine with you thinking I am scum and request that you vote me regardless of alignment while I am gone.

that is probably where i will end up, yes

[Venus Fly Trap]

i associate more activity + pushing-ness with town-you and while you were kinda like that in early game it's the sort of thing i think you have a very hard time keeping up so the read has devolved. and can u show me where you think you're being conviction-ful (i'm sure there's a real word for that but it's escaping my mind atm)
fwiw panic room is the baseline i'm going off of

My whole interaction with bulge d2 (until I doubted myself), my interaction with iverson today feels like things I would've approached with less convinction as scum

Panic room is not a great baseline because I mostly dropped off because I felt like the game was lost, but I do sometimes tend to drop off as scum

ig i don't really see the conviction. or, more accurately, there's less conviction than i would expect to see from town-you
i was under the impression that panic room was a decent example of typical-scum-infinity, esp. given divide and conquer how u kept using that as a reference for why you *weren't* scum

now you're kinda saying that isn't a prototypical scumgame?

[Venus Fly Trap]

help

hi bork >.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

idk that doesn't feel like the right place to put him
like he isn't part of the 're-evaluate townreads' tier but is like the best of the worst tier

[Venus Fly Trap]

now you're kinda saying that isn't a prototypical scumgame?

It's not and I don't even know what a typical scumgame of mine would be, most of my recent ones are really small. Though I think the way I played d1 in panic room is a decent representation of how I play d1s as scum

I'm not really sure how to respond to you saying it's less conviction than you'd expect me to have as scum, it felt like more conviction to me. Maybe we're defining conviction differently

maybe i need to do some homework and look at another scumgame or two of urs
but like the problem i'm having is that you made a massive thing in the last game i playe diwth town-you about how different you were playing than panic room and how utterly unreasonable i was being for attempting to scumread you there because you t hought i ought to have known that how you were playing just couldn't come from scum-you
and here you're kinda fading into the background more and kinda taking a different stance wrt this sort of meta

[Venus Fly Trap]

mom let's just say sircakez is scum
the last two voters on bulge are town
so the other scum are doing what exactly

[Venus Fly Trap]

maybe i need to do some homework and look at another scumgame or two of urs
but like the problem i'm having is that you made a massive thing in the last game i playe diwth town-you about how different you were playing than panic room and how utterly unreasonable i was being for attempting to scumread you there because you t hought i ought to have known that how you were playing just couldn't come from scum-you
and here you're kinda fading into the background more and kinda taking a different stance wrt this sort of meta

I mean yeah I'm playing differently from divide and conquer but that game was pretty rare and you've seen me be very different in PyP and jk9++ and ss3

you were easier to see as town in the first two at this point in the game tho >.>
and i was scum in ss3 and i honestly don't remember how u played there

[Venus Fly Trap]

Vote Count 2-12

The Bulge

(4): Venus Fly Trap, notscience, Infinity 324, Kismet

Not_Mafia

(4): Disaster Cartel, SirCakez, Momrangal, Iverson

Infinity 324

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(1): Not_Mafia

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Deadline: May 11, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-10 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- sniped while walking the pup!
-

@mom
where are they here

[Venus Fly Trap]

mine

nice job ffery !

[Venus Fly Trap]

i don't think he approaches nm that way, esp. how he was shooting down the bulge cw (like i keep thinking of that gif he posted that shouted 'NO!') and like in the moment it just felet very natural and something he had a large amt of conviction for. didn't feel like a bus

i like how he's reading me too

pedit i think he's got some irl stuff going on. that bit i don't think is ai

[Venus Fly Trap]

skitter if you're scum here you're just fucking killing it

man i wish i was this smooth lol

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm really vibing an iversen vote today

[Venus Fly Trap]

infinity you're kinda scaring me

[Venus Fly Trap]

infinity you're kinda scaring me

I think I might have the motivation to put some time into this game this weekend, if that helps.

Beyond that idk. I'm not really feeling good about this game anyway

ok that would be helpful if u can this weekend

i'm not vibing shit. i'm vibing a beacon of town fucking taking this mantle off my failure-ridden shoulders.

if u mean me plz don't place this all on me >.>
i haven't exactly had a higher accuracy-rate here than you

although as i right this out maybe you mean notsci?
idk

[Venus Fly Trap]

pedit i think he's got some irl stuff going on. that bit i don't think is ai

yeah i mean if this is the case i guess it's plausible he thought he was getting what he wanted and went into maintenance mode

i don't think maintenance mode i think he literally just hasn't had time for a few days
also i still dont think he buses nm that way

pedit fair enuf

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok i worked like six billion horus this week already and i'm amazed that i'm actually capable of stringing together sentences rn so i'm gonna bounce and sleep >.>
i'll try really hard to be around tom but might not be able to before the weekend

[Venus Fly Trap]

Prism even tho i think ur scum, in the context of wanting to play less mafia amd have be offline more i think that's a good plan and i admire it

I'm gonna take a mafia break too after this one i think

Unfortunately its still awful at work so i dont think i'll be able to play much today. Next week looks a lot calmer, and i should be aroubd on sunday too

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Bork we should def to that at some point

[Venus Fly Trap]

tfti

still convinced that scum were bussing yesterday. ydrasse switching vote to bulge looked really bad and I don't really agree with skitter that mena is super towny :/ or at least towny enough to override how awful the vote switch yesterday was. I feel like scum is mostly within the initial nm wagon and that from the very start of the day they were intending to sacrifice him quickly in order to get rid of bork, and originally I thought that was why there was little wagon movement.

feeling really shitty from vaccine and allergy season rearing its head, will try to be at some point this weekend

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

Bork we should def to that at some point

yes!

[Venus Fly Trap]

feeling really shitty from vaccine and allergy season rearing its head, will try to be at some point this weekend

Feel good lilith <3

Iverson still hate ur sircakez take

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

This is one of my big frustrations with skitter. Everyone saw me blitz. It didn't faze Cakez, at overnight or at day start. Suddenly it became something worth looking into when I pushed him. This makes sense if you were iffy on it, thinking of plausible explanations for either alignment, but here Cakez is claiming to have basically completely overlooked it and just now be thinking about it and man he just doesn't get it. What?

The difference between this interaction on me blitzing and my Cakez criticism Day 2 was that his responses were too rushed and he should slow down and chew on them more. Cakez watched me shoot his dog and IDK that just didn't seem like it was significant but now that you mention it man how did he miss that?

The wheels are only turning when the inspectors show up.

- i odn't think he was online when you voted, and it looks to me like he reevaluated upon coming into the game day3. saying that he's only voting you and questioning your vote because you're pushing him seems remarkably disingenuous
- we established like start of day2 that he's only playing the game when he's here and is sort of thinking through his posts as he types them and, more importantly, that *you weren't scumreading him for this behavior*. i literally don't understand what changed and why you're scumreading him for this now but it wasn't scummy yesterday (you in fact took great issue with me saying you were scumreading him for doing just that). you also seem to understand that he's only thinking abt teh game while he's here 2736
- you seem to be townreading infinity for doing the same thing sircakez is doing ??? 2931

i just, like, don't understand this push - it seems to me like it's convenient for you to be scumreading him for these reasons but i don't understand why 'only thinking abt the game while actively in thread* is scummy, which seems to be what the push boils down to

[Venus Fly Trap]

whoops

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

infinity, where are u holding rn

pedit >.>

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i guess my issue is that i think that this is something he *should* undertand and i don't get why he's viewing this as scummy

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i will be so, so, *so* annoyed if we lose here because you lot decided to vote out someone i'm strongly townreading

i just feel the need to say that

and i'm not so sure i scumread prism anymore >.>

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Who's scum

i don't really think ur town anymore

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

VOTE: DC

no

[Venus Fly Trap]

I'm scum with cakez and mom then? Idk I don't think you can really confidently TR DC in this gamestate but /shrug, you know mena better than me

UNVOTE:

I don't really care personally, but I feel like I owe skitter something if she actually cares about this game

i'm not 100% sure what the solve is but i'm having a hard time seeing mena as scum here, yeah
i was also thinking it's scummy that you were ignoring me on mena but this is throwing me for a loop a bit tbh

[Venus Fly Trap]

They're a scumread of mine. I was already wanting to go there since people weren't finding Cakez palatable. If they wind up being town, then okay.

i mean i'm not really ok with it but ok

[Venus Fly Trap]

Is there some silver bullet I am missing for why DC is town? In about ~12 minutes I am taking off for the day which means my vote will stay.

sorry i had to go take care of soemthing >.>

i don't think he approaches nm the way he does as scum; i don't think he comes into this game deciding to bus him. he was very, very, very resolutely for that push and refused multiple entreaties to divert the wagon off of nm.

i also think that he isn't playing around me the way he would as scum - i.e. he isn't making all of his play *abt me*; he is very, very, very willing to be contrary to me and do whatever he likes no matter what i might think abt it. i think scum-him basically tries to pocket me and tries to get on my good side and that usually manifests by making his reads match mine and trying to push my agenda. that isn't happenign here. he actually doesn't particularly care what i'm doing and isn't trying to match his play to mine. i think this is very +town for him

[Venus Fly Trap]

Given that one scum is probably Momrangal I'm not optimistic that scum will get it done in a timely manner even if they get the opportunity. For practical reasons I'm willing to just assume they had time at the 12 hour mark.

i mean i'm still down to vote her
she might even be my preferred vote honestly

[Venus Fly Trap]

i kinda don't want to end this as 'well we probably aren't going to win so meh'

[Venus Fly Trap]

kismet where are u holding on mom here?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think just abt everyone has her in their pool but she's nobody's preferred vote, which i find pretty interesting

[Venus Fly Trap]

mostly cuz of poe or did the read change?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i feel like i'm townreading too many people which is obviously a problem at this stage >.>

pedit well not specifically the interactions with you but more the rambling introspection about playstyle and his motivations for how he's playing and why and how he's trying to reach out to people and how he feels about how different players respond to him and are reading him

[Venus Fly Trap]

3011 and on threw me for a loop, but maybe i can see it (and everything after) starting as a response to 3000.

i have a hard time seeing both prism and dc as town considering how bulge went down. what's your dream team here?

well if he's scum here what exactly is he doing?
retreating into the the absurd and defensive and philosophical?
although now that i think abt it if he thinks he's cooked after yesterday this might be prism's version of lolcatting. but he could have just left teh game instead of doing whatever he's doing now as scum?

i did feel a couple of times that he was making an earnest effort in trying to get me to understand his pov. like in the 2952 2954 2957 range

idk maybe i like it when people appeal to me and try to work with me tho

~

i think that all scum are in {mom/infinity/notsci/sircakez/iverson}

[Venus Fly Trap]

The one point for Mom is she wasn't on the awful Bulge wagon

this is true
however, she has not done anything really townie imo and i dont' think that 'not being on a bad wagon' is good enuf at this stage, esp. when i have more townreads than i should

[Venus Fly Trap]

probably not unfortunately

i'm wondering if i should be rethinking notsci here
i don't really want to but i think i might be at that point

[Venus Fly Trap]

Heya i'm around for a bit but i dont have oodles of energy tonight

I think that this is the right thing to do here: VOTE: mom
I dont think she's town
I dont think anybody thinks she's town
I think she's just in everyone's scumpool but getting overlooked for whatever reason, and ime that's always the person i regret *not* flipping when i had the oppurtunity to do so

Heya prism, heya bork

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

skitter i am having trouble finding DC to be town for the reasons you think they are town

do you have solid examples of mena doing the stuff you posted about expecting him to do as scum?
do you have solid examples of him decidedly not doing that as town?

one sec yes but i'm giving up on my phone and going to a computer
iverson i'll get to u too

[Venus Fly Trap]

Spoiler:

Honestly i think he's just busy irl, see the recent panic room when je was scum but couldnt play due to busy-ness - when he *was* around, he actually efforted and tried to make himself look townie and solving

Here he just doesnt care. I think for him, in that context, this is townie
[Redacted] supports that as well

~

And: ~on the road to hell~

I think if he's busy he isnt going to be putting much effort in, but as scum he will *try to look like he is*, and that he'll be political to try to get the players he thinks he needs to tr him to tr him (i.e. often me)

He isnt doing that here, so i think its townie

But fair enuf if you dont want to metadive, fark, or if you want more from him before you tr him, pooky

But i see him starting to collect votes and i just wanted to say that i'm not a fan particularly

I do think lucy is an alt and i also think i know who she is

mena doesn't really have any content so what am i supposed to interact with really?
easiest way to go about it is just say that he feels weird and see how he responds and go from there

scum-him also is gonna try to buddy me hard, especially if he isn't really planning on playing this, but *he didn't* in that interaction, and he's being very, very, very open and blase about the fact that he's not playing - scum him would be more defensive about it, and would be trying to look more like he's trying
he's not tho, so even tho he didn't really give any more content or anything in that short interaction, i thought it was townie for him, because he didn't hit any of the points that i'd expect from scum-him there

basically this normal as the towngame, and the recently completed panic room that notsci modded as the scumgame.
in panic room he repped in late and basically tried pocketing me and tried to get me to like his slot and basically made his whole game about appeasing me (take a look at his iso if you don't believe me, viewtopic.php?f=51&t=85778&user_select[]=32813, it's basically entirely talking to me and about me and in some places even though the logical conclusions of what he was spouting would make me scum, he wouldn't even call me scum).
i called him out on it and flipped him (and infinity was there too!)

and in the towngame, he was not tryharding, he was popping in and yolo-ing whenever he felt convenient, even if it made him look bad. it was a tough pl and people kept trying to flip him because he was one of the easier misflips, and i kept being stubborn about explaining that that isn't how he's playing scum these days and managed to stave off the misflip. he would be trying to be more ~political~ (i.e. have reads that would actually make people townread him, and not just say whatever he's thinking), and would also be sucking up to me more (sorry mena for being so blunt).
and i was right in that analysis, and he was town there (and infinity you were in that one too iirc!)

and here he's a lot more like the latter than the former. he isn't having reads that would particularly get on anybody's good side (like, literally does not need to pick a massive fight about nm repeatedly on day1, setting himself up as contrary to general thread opinion). he isn't being super try-hard-y for him. he isn't trying to get me to townread him in particular. he isn't trying to pocket me - the way he's playing this game isn't orienting around me, which si what i would expect to happen if he were scum. in panic room, he basically kept trying to appeal to me, as my vote is ultimately what was going to decide how that day played out. i have a certain amount of sway here too, and he isn't trying to tap into that. he isn't particularly going out of his way to interact with me. i don't think this is what current-era-mena's scumgame looks like. it looks a lot more like the normal imo.

[Venus Fly Trap]

sorry i managed to screw up the quotes like six times >.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

Is there some silver bullet I am missing for why DC is town? In about ~12 minutes I am taking off for the day which means my vote will stay.

i don't think he approaches nm the way he does as scum; i don't think he comes into this game deciding to bus him. he was very, very, very resolutely for that push and refused multiple entreaties to divert the wagon off of nm.

I don't get the first part given that this setup incentivizes being aggressive against partners and it looks like he had prior experience to live up to/stay consistent with.

I don't know which wagon you're referring to here but Day 2 I did not see it as TvS and DC was basically a nonentity yesterday, at least from whenever I replaced in.

i also think that he isn't playing around me the way he would as scum - i.e. he isn't making all of his play *abt me*; he is very, very, very willing to be contrary to me and do whatever he likes no matter what i might think abt it.

i think scum-him basically tries to pocket me and tries to get on my good side and that usually manifests by making his reads match mine and trying to push my agenda. that isn't happenign here. he actually doesn't particularly care what i'm doing and isn't trying to match his play to mine. i think this is very +town for him

His positioning around you earlygame I felt was performatively contrarian precisely in the hopes of this, and 2181 he made a significant effort towards either getting on the same page or believing you were scum if he couldn't. Letting you have free rein for the sake of a pocket also doesn't work in this setup anyway.

- i dont' think he goes out of his way to make his main push of the game a partner (like he entered the game trying to get nm flipped) in this setup
- the wagon i'm talking abt is the first time bulge was a cw to nm, and he kept trying to shoot it down. posts like 2074 and around there stuck out as being very memorable to me and real in the moment, about how vehemently he wanted nm and didn't want us getting distracted from him. are you positing that he basically came into the game trying to flip partner-nm and that's what he's spent the whole game doing?
- to be blunt, i don't think scum-mena tries to take a contrarian read on me here for teh sake of being contrary (sorry mena). i'm also not sure where you think he's being performative

[Venus Fly Trap]

If you actually want me to go on an egoistic spiel about how it's totally not out of range I can but that summarizes it and we can skip it wow amazing ok go us

even though i hate to say it i think posts like these probably come from town

[Venus Fly Trap]

I can honestly go for either but I actively scumread DC

Momrangal I am literally just assuming she is scum because everyone else has been extremely town meanwhile Momrangal has not posted for essentially two full gamedays (I think they had like, 3 posts of commentary yesterday) and did not have anything in the first 25 pages that I found memorable

i support this service and/or product

[Venus Fly Trap]

the normal? yeah that was part of it. i think that the characteristics that enabled me to identify town-him there are similar to how he's playing here tho

[Venus Fly Trap]

uh not really?
or at least that wasn't what he felt like upon playign with him?

[Venus Fly Trap]

not really sure how you're getting 'lost' and 'effete' out of that

[Venus Fly Trap]

Spoiler:

Unfortunately we think ur slot has super high scum equity

Hi skitt!!

Can u tell me y tho

Do u feel v tunnelled on me skitt?

Okay that’s fine

Was asking mostly bc if I get to a point where I’m like happy happy with the idea of town!you then I was considering saying that if we just settle it as me being the guaranteed lim today would u spend the rest of the day trying to sort in my wagon from yesterday w/ me

If it’s not like a super túnel then I guess I’ll just do the catchup thing normally and hopefully u see I’m town

Or maybe I just never get really comfortable with town you in which case I guess the game becomes more tryhardy

like i can unvote in good faith to let u get acclimated but your slot is my best bet rn

~ skitteR

No like it’s fine

I think if ur town then it makes a lot of sense to want to elim some order of (me, yotta, DnD, GC)

I just wanna get to a point of higher confidence on that

I think probably if you just flip just flip me -> yyotta/GC -> GC/yyotta -> skitter!hydra this wins

Idk, maybe not skitter!hydra but one of the DnDs

My thinking is that if my wagon is pure then hardbussing becomes more likely, and so if DnD is still alive by that point their scum equity goes ++

i'm still having some issues with your thought process from daystart yesterday, where you said we were bussing mc day1 to get cred to bus the bomb day2 .... when i was pushing *you*

so like from your pov i was clearly and obviously not pushing the bomb but you were positing that that's what i had to have been doing?

~ skitter

I feel like I already explained this? which is that if u were not inducted yet into the hood then u couldn't safely start hard bussing the bomb at start of day, and therefore I was a safe option?

bc either u would get a free elim OR you could always pivot to a bomb!bus once the day had progressed and once u were in the hood. but u wouldn't wanna get locked into bussing the bomb from the start of day and then have to pivot off weirdly halfway through if you still weren't hooded by then

like especially posts like 1569 ^ (which was addressed to me)

[Venus Fly Trap]

eh if that's what you mean, ya basically. but that's kinda my point. that's not what he's doing here.
pedit i don't think he would as scum

[Venus Fly Trap]

ah ok, the tone was kinda confusing

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok. consider me sheeping you atm. i'll wait for infinity and ydrasse to do whatever.

i appreciate that you actually read through what i wrote

[Venus Fly Trap]

fwiw i don't think notsci being absent is ai

[Venus Fly Trap]

yep

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm not sure what you're trying to say abt me/my slot

[Venus Fly Trap]

also how are you feeling abt bork?

[Venus Fly Trap]

For Skitter I see the contrast you're making between those two games and this one. It seems like you gave direct feedback on at least part of the scumgame. I'm not calling it scummy obviously but I wouldn't really put it past Mena to make adjustments to his scumplay to reflect very recent meta, especially when if he had to pick between his career or tricking you in a single game he'd probably pick the latter.

I'm gonna be honest - i dont think he can (or would be able to) change his scumgame so drastically, even if he knows what i would scumread him if he didn't. I just dont think he would be so antagonistic here as scum, or bus nm, or interact with me this way. Just cuz he knows what his tells are doesnt mean they're easy to change, and i think this is a big enuf difference from how he'd approach this as scum to make him town

Like to be blunt scum-him *cares* abt how i'm reading him, and he doesn't want me to scumread him, so he will work actively work to avoid that. He's just not here

[Venus Fly Trap]

I think I'm sliding towards DC and Mom definite scum, and then one of notsci and Inf
I like this post

Would vastly prefer mom

[Venus Fly Trap]

also - DC has been sitting at two votes for a while now

so either
1) DC is scum
2) Iverson is scum
3) the scum team is just not trying for quickhammer

methinks it's 1

If its mom not sure how likely s qh is to have happened

[Venus Fly Trap]

Skitt what's your read on me atp

We're heading back towards scum
I kinda hate that you're insisting on dc, while kinda ignoring me on him when u know i'm good at reading him, but arent commiting to calling me scum with him (but are just kinda raising paranoid 'what if they're scum together' and waffling on me, even in the post above)

If ur scum ur kinda at a point where u need to be stubborn on dc and try to undermine my read on him, especially in the universe where mom is scum, and you've been raising the dc/vft thing as i've been promoting mom

[Venus Fly Trap]

If that flips scum I think the mostly likely team is Infinity/Iverson (page 124 be damned) just due to most other slots just not really fitting the bill w/ mara for me, along w/ my TR on noddy, but mostly infinity because of the somewhat hedgy read on VFT (lilith stuff, 3146 etc.) while basically requiring VFT scum for DC to also be scum, and yet not wanting to vote outside DC today, which wins the game in this univers

I know ur gonna hate me saying this but i think infinity/notsci at this point

[Venus Fly Trap]

Like I dont understand why people are keen to just not respond to me

I dont understand how cake goes from not wanting to touch NM at all D1 to tunneling the shit out of him D2

I've cased both of them, and even after the NM scum flip no one is willing to entertain my theory?

I answered u abt this like at daystart iirc, u just k8nda ignored it/didnt really respond

Cakez isnt happening today and i think these are scummy posts, why are u ignoring, like, everything that's happened today

[Venus Fly Trap]

@infinity: do you think mom is town in any universe?

@cakes: if you think dc and mom are both scum, why not vote mom? I don’t think DC not being hammered means that much - the mafia role PM implies no daytalk, which would make it pretty difficult to quickhammer anyone.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

mom’s entire iso is hot garbage - if by some sliver of a chance she’s town yall can yell at us postgame.

skitter’s convinced me on mena, we’re not voting there. unless you (read: infinity) think that exactly mom is town and DC is scum, your take on the situation feels very contrived.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

(all the unsigned posts were skitter if that wasn’t clear)

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok i just feel the need to point out that we've had 3 different people within quickhammer range, and i think all for at least 12 hours. so unless we want to posit that the scumteam is exactly mom/dc/prism, i think part of the explanation is that scum is not necessarily being very good at quickhammering this game

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

No no no

yes yes yes

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Skitt should be TRing me now I'm pretty sure, she was all "look at this drop off in activity" and then when I get another burst of activity she doesn't stop to reconsider. Especially when she already reconsidered for a moment when I unvoted DC

With VFT scum mom is almost always town

i mean you've been ignoring my read on someone that you know i'm good at reading in order to push through someone i think is town in lylo, and are now turnign to calling me scum with them
from my pov what am i supposed to be thinking abt u here

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Mom also has a townier ISO than DC in a vacuum, the response to the nacho wagon felt like she was by herself against a bunch of scum who all had an agenda to kill nacho.

no

[Venus Fly Trap]

Like I dont understand why people are keen to just not respond to me

I dont understand how cake goes from not wanting to touch NM at all D1 to tunneling the shit out of him D2

I've cased both of them, and even after the NM scum flip no one is willing to entertain my theory?

Can we revisit this later? It's really just you or DC today

and like mom's post to me, in the context of imminently getting wagoned, is, uh, Not Great,so i dont' love that this is your only response to it

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

not gonna lie this is skeeving me out Infinity

What would help with this? I very strongly believe this game only makes sense with a VFT/DC team,

and my strong preference for DC over mom is mostly a reaction to skitt going the opposite way

. Like you know skitt isn't out of her scumrange here yeah? When the game doesn't make sense you have to look at the strong scum players

idk what the bolded means

[Venus Fly Trap]

Why does scum!me suddenly get a burst of motivation in a very slow game I'm probably going to win anyway? It makes much more sense that I suddenly came to a realization

because if we live in a scum-mom scum-you town-dc universe i'm slowly wrenching away this win ...

[Venus Fly Trap]

Honestly you don't have to trust me on this but I TR prism more than I TR bork

and sicne when is this a thing?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Boy am i happy i was so stubborn yesterday
(And that i was right!)

I strongly believe infinity is scum, and am planning on voting her today. I will consider voting notsci as well

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I could probably go into why exactly I was very wrong though it would be a bit painful. Besides that it's like, ok vote me atp

Do people have thoughts about what scum were doing yesterday? I feel like scum could've pushed through many other mislims

I mean from my pov trying to flip dc and obstruct the mom wagon ....

[Venus Fly Trap]

I know this is entirely wifom but it’s a really stupid idea for scum notsci to kill town Bork here.

Like beyond javelin throw.

Ya the wifom is not helping

[Venus Fly Trap]

I mean from my pov trying to flip dc and obstruct the mom wagon ....

There's nothing I can do here except try to explain myself and probably fail lmk if that could possibly help

i mean you're more than welcome to but i'm gonna be honest - i'm having a hard time seeing myself vote elsewhere today

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

One of that OG townbloc has to be scum

Why?

i don't think this is an unreasonable conclusion

also i want to say that surprisingly enough cakez is possibly my strongest townread today

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Skitt I simultaneously don't blame you for thinking I'm scum and am surprised that you don't realize I'm out of my scumrange

i don't think you're out of your scumrange, i had a whole thing abt it yesterday

[Venus Fly Trap]

I will consider voting notsci as well

skitt, you think that infinity and notsci decide to enter today bussing?

idk I feel like that's relatively unlikely? I think there's a better chance that if scum felt that the walls were closing in yesterday that one of them bussed mom for the cred and like I'm not sure that notsci is as likely to do have done that as cakez or iverson

like if notsci was bussing I think it almost comes too late for it to be worth it in a team of (notsci, infinity, mom) where they'd be better off just going hard for the win yesterday

i mean i feel like after yesterday, if that's the team their best bet *is* to enter today bussing? not really sure how else they could expect to win this withotu getting some sort of cred from a bus. and infinity yesterday was p bad and notsci when he entered wasn't much better just then tbh

i think that cakez is p town, and ngl i think iverson is too

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm gonna be vla from now until tuesday night without interent access @ffery

i might be around a bit more later this afternoon but after that not for a couple of days

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I think infinity is close to just being confscum at this point and I think the bigger concern is that idk where the remaining scum is in (cakez, Iverson)

why can't inf and notsci both be scum

if I was scum I wouldn't have moved to Mom I would have stayed on Iverson or DC (assuming they are town)

Ok but why didn't whoever my partner was vote DC with me? Or why didn't we push cakez/prism when there was the opportunity? Idk if I was so desperate to (knowingly) get town elimmed you'd think I'd have a partner helping me

The gist of the insanity that was in my head last day phase is that I couldn't see a scumteam without DC or VFT (cakez and prism looking very town helped with that) and if one of them was scum then the most likely scenario was that it was both. Bork felt very aligned with both DC and VFT and then he was talking to skitter about being paranoid of notsci (where I felt like it made more sense to be paranoid of VFT) and then bork decided to vote mom over DC

i mean if notsci he literally wasn't around .... that's at least in part why i think you/notsci are viable

i'm kinda baffled that yesterday you were thinking me/dc/bork tbh

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

The other thing is that skitt and mena haven't had the interactions I expect from T/T them

go on

[Venus Fly Trap]

I think it’s highly probable there’s a scum in conjunction with skitters townread on mena.

idk what you're trying to say here

[Venus Fly Trap]

My dankest spiciest take is all the replacements are scum and that is what prompted not mafias post

I’m too chickenshit to push it though

sooooooo you're saying infinity/iverson?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm kinda baffled that yesterday you were thinking me/dc/bork tbh

I was trying to awaken PyP!infinity but

?

[Venus Fly Trap]

oh god this thread blew up wtf happened

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

I'm still working so I can't catch up until later but where are you at?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

I could probably go into why exactly I was very wrong though it would be a bit painful. Besides that it's like, ok vote me atp

Do people have thoughts about what scum were doing yesterday? I feel like scum could've pushed through many other mislims

I would like to kill in me or infinity today.

something about both of these feels wrong - like if either are town then they should know that their own death results in a loss

I want to trust bork's read on notsci

but bork was wrong about mom so idk if I trust his reads anymore :/

[Venus Fly Trap]

If that flips scum I think the mostly likely team is Infinity/Iverson (page 124 be damned) just due to most other slots just not really fitting the bill w/ mara for me, along w/ my TR on noddy, but mostly infinity because of the somewhat hedgy read on VFT (lilith stuff, 3146 etc.) while basically requiring VFT scum for DC to also be scum, and yet not wanting to vote outside DC today, which wins the game in this universe.

[Venus Fly Trap]

okay I tried to read but this is too much words for me right now

infinity pushed DC over mom yesterday, her self-defeatism and "I'll vote myself" feels like auro did in black flag which I guess is supposed to make us not want to vote her or something. I don't think we (the hydra we) are ever getting away from scumreading her.

I don't have a good answer for who her partner is either but I feel like that's a tomorrow problem (or a "when skitter gets back" problem) because I don't think I have the brainpower to reason that out

townread on prism?

[Venus Fly Trap]

oh nope I see infinity is now voting DC

[Venus Fly Trap]

and now?

[Venus Fly Trap]

hey i'm nominally back online but i haven't read anything and i don't think i'll be able to until after work tomorrow
apologies for my absence

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

heya
i'm around
apologies for my absence

~

i absolutely under no circumstances will entertain flipping dc today after yesterday. this is my single-most confident read and i will not let us get derailed after everything that's happened.

~
i want to talk to mt a bit.

@mt a few points:
- i literally cannot imagine a universe where scum-me doesn't try to, like, win yesterday. in the universe you're proposing, iverson was absolutely viable - bork was willing to vote there, and if anything, *i* talked him out of it by calling prism town. why, exactly, does scum-me limit my options and go out of my way to cut off that option? and to bus my partner instead?
in your spoiler you kinda ignore the following interaction:

Spoiler:

3011 and on threw me for a loop, but maybe i can see it (and everything after) starting as a response to 3000.

i have a hard time seeing both prism and dc as town considering how bulge went down. what's your dream team here?

well if he's scum here what exactly is he doing?
retreating into the the absurd and defensive and philosophical?
although now that i think abt it if he thinks he's cooked after yesterday this might be prism's version of lolcatting. but he could have just left teh game instead of doing whatever he's doing now as scum?

i did feel a couple of times that he was making an earnest effort in trying to get me to understand his pov. like in the 2952 2954 2957 range

idk maybe i like it when people appeal to me and try to work with me tho

~

i think that all scum are in {mom/infinity/notsci/sircakez/iverson}

well if he's scum here what exactly is he doing?
retreating into the the absurd and defensive and philosophical?
although now that i think abt it if he thinks he's cooked after yesterday this might be prism's version of lolcatting. but he could have just left teh game instead of doing whatever he's doing now as scum?

yeah, fair enough.

i'm willing to maybe admit 3083 - 3085 don't come from scum here

probably not unfortunately

i'm wondering if i should be rethinking notsci here
i don't really want to but i think i might be at that point

to be perfectly blunt, i had the sway to get the flip that i wanted .... i'm p confident that if scum-me had doubuled-down on prism it would have been viable with bork's backing, and you're just ignoring the fact that i just *don't*
- i was the driving force behind the one and only scum day-flip. i'm baffled that your explanation for how that happened is 'decided to bus a partner instead of trying to win yesterday' and are treating that like the most likely explanation.
- maybe i missed it but feel free to quote it at me if i did: why exactly is it more likely that i'm scum *with* dc than town who can read him better than you?
- if there's anything in particular you would like me to address, please requote.

~

basically where i'm at:

dc is town
and i'm p sure cakez is town too

so two scum out of {mt, infinity, notsci}
i was leaning towards infinity/notsci entering today after how yesterday went down but i feel like with mt's entrance and what she's pushing i need to reconsider her as well.
but i'm p sure my vote today will only be within those three people.

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

notsci if you're town i need you to un-disappear off the face of the planet

you're kinda in your scum-meta at this point i feel like

~

infinity can you walk me through exactly why you were willing to cede your vote to me a couple of days ago, ieven if it meant voting yourself

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

right, but if you're town we just lose in that instance tho?
i can kinda imagine scum being so despondant in that universe that they'd be willing to just end it however ...
but at the same time i am kinda getting the vibe that you weresincerely disappointed annoyed at your inability to obvtown here and that you were kinda desperate to have people see your pov
also i hope it isn't rude if i say this but i kinda feel like if you're scum you would have just given up? and wouldn't even have made a lot of the psots you made in that bout of posting? idk

~

(aside i have a thought but i think i'm not supposed to talk about it under the 'talking about replacement' rules)

~
ig if you are town here i think tweetie/notsci is probalby the solve
(sadly *flops ears* in that universe)

[Venus Fly Trap]

ig my problem with that universe is why mt doesn't just rep-in and start pushing you ... that's easily her easiest push here

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

ugh hard game is hard >.>

i feel like i just need to find the one town in the three which hopefully i can manage to do?

pedit yeah that's the thing your push yeseterday was kinda gross and looked really bad but like i'm not sure scum-you, after failing, can put on such a burst of posting like that, knowing the sort of situation you're up against

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

mt why is infinity town here?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok i'm actually not sure why she's townreading infinity to that extant
(or dismissing the reasons why people were scumreading her at daystart)

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i kinda think that mt/infinity makes a certain amt of sense from the mt side tbh
it explains how and why she entered today

pedit no >:(

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

infinity how are you reading mt rn?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm gonna be honest i'm having a hard time seeing town come in with the pushes she's making >.>

~ skitter

>.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

oh hey mt i missed that post, one sec

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I don't deny that you could have done it,

what i dont think is that you could have done it and won automatically

Uhmm.. the quote you have in the spoiler is bork deciding Prism is town. He started hinting at that on the previous page before you started interacting with him (?). I get your point is that you had a hand in Iverson's defense and you could have instead called it scummy to sway bork though

Being the driving force behind a scum elim does not matter if both candidates were scum. It's not a simple solution but sigh. The issue is it's possible and if Cakes and notsci are town it's also probable

Everyone taking Venus as town agiven over notsci shakes me a bit

The post where you explain the Mena read just didnt make sense to me, let me get it later. It was off the NM interactions was it not? But yes, other players being better at reading than me is always an option sure

- uh flippng iverson literally means i win automatically in the universe you're proposing, not sure what the bolded means
- i distinctly remember talking bork *out* of scumreading iverson, not sure why you're discounting that. the quote in the spoiler is bork deciding prism is town and cementing that read *because* i wasn't interested in it
- again, being the driving force behidn a scum elim matters when *i could have gotten a misfliip instead* if i'm scum in that universe, that's the bit you're ignoring
- why exactly are cakes and notsci town
- mena is town off of meta. if i need to explain this again i will but it's fairly clear to me when you compare panic room vs the recent mini normal that he's town here

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

You really think it's likely scum tweet would be more likely to play with an actual push/drive to get an elimination rather than just float around as ive done in every other scum appearance ever?

i mean if you're scum with infinity the way you're playing this makes a lot of sense to me

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I'm getting into a league match dont tear me apart too hard while im gone

have fun! this will be waiting for you upon your retun

[Venus Fly Trap]

If you're town you're giving too much credit to my..... town game.... i think? And scum game. Town game for expecting me to get it right and scum game for thinking i could fake passion over a scumread of all things

From where I stand cakes is never scum and DC is always scum

When I have to pick between you and notsci i have all the dead townies wishes' on that side and as for townreading you it's starting to feel like I'm either a moron for missing why everyone townreads you or im seeing things from a different persepctive

idk if i'm expecting town-you to get it right but i do expect you to not propose things that are, quite simply, that farfetched ...
it's like you're viewing the game through a lens that is convenient but doesn't entirely match up to what makes sense to have actually happened
how exactly are you reading notsci in this post and what happened to infinity?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i mean idk what games those were but if she was posting quite a bit as both alignments in other games i think her lack of posting here is isnt' super ai
either way i think that mena is easier to read of the two and he's town so

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

infinity i was wondering why you weren't remembering the mini normal but i just realized you actualy weren't in the mini normal >.>

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I'm sad now, i want off this rollercoaster just to see if i was right

ill start with cakes and notsci reasoning while tabbing in and out of my game which will almost certainly piss my teammates off but more important. at least all i can remember in my head

Cakes is by far the most genuine sounding person in the game i refuse to believe he's faking it. there were al ot of dead scum interactions. I dont think he makes sense as scum with anyone. if he were scum i think scum proobably would have just been able to win by now anyway and yet he continues not knowing where to go. Everyone else also agrees he's town so thats fine

Notsci i dont remember what else bolstered my reaad aside from trusting the bulge and borkjerkin -- no one contested the claim that they are phenomenal at reaading notsci so i take it to be true. There is a world where notsci is having a highly uncharacteristic scum game where he fools all of his friends and goes deep but i just.... see a more likely Venus one

My hope for this is starting to falter a bit with infinity not believing me

I don't feel like i've looked at the game in a way that is driven by an agenda, literally only venus/DC are hammering this point in BUT I FEEL LIKE IM FUCKING GOING MAD. I really don't see a world where as scum I dont keep my options open to both infinity and DC and let whichever die and try to win the next die if my partner loses to the other. I'm certain I would have done that -- I am so certain i wouldnt try to implicate Venus. I also would have kept notsci in the pool so i can go all over the place

i agree with cakez

notsci are you townreading independantly or just relying on bulge/bork?

tweetie from my pov your approach is kinda agenda-driven though you're proposing myself and my biggest townread are scum, and are basically coming up with a world where scum-me plays incredibly suboptimally yesterday, namely choosing to bus a partner instead of trying to take an available misflip and win, and you still haven't really explained *why* i choose to do that
like idk how am i supposed to view it from my pov ?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i mean idk what games those were but if she was posting quite a bit as both alignments in other games i think her lack of posting here is isnt' super ai
either way i think that mena is easier to read of the two and he's town so

~ skitter

Well the scumgame was one of her best that I've seen and I think she might have been posting more because that game was going well

Was mena scum in the mini normal? I feel like I have a pretty good baseline for town!mena but I don't know his scumgame very well

Still think panic room is a bad baseline to use because there wasn't a reason to give it his all

no he was town. my point is that this looks more like his towngame than his scumgame
i'm p confident that soem of the characteristics of panic room (namely, how he plays around me) carries through regardless of the fact that he repped into a sucky slot there

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

- uh flippng iverson literally means i win automatically in the universe you're proposing, not sure what the bolded means

I mean it was never as easy as pushing Iverson and winning immediately -- you still would have had to put the effort in to be convincing and keep, say, Kismet and someone elses' votes on for long enough for the scumteam to naturally join since DC/Mom were both absent

It had to be believable all the way through

I think you could have done that though yes and then won. I don't know why exactly that didnt happen, maybe you weren't confident enough in Kismet in this case

I know theres something that is making scum impossible to see. It might be notsci playing a fantastic game or it might be you making this decision and getting "cleared"

It's so clearly possible to me but it only is to me, isn't it, since im the only one who knows im not viable with infinity. Really sucks

i'm p sure that if i get kismet to vote with me it happens ultimately ... that's what happened like literally every other phase this game ...

mt. why exactly is infinity town? i think i asked this a couple fo times and you didn't answer this really

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Why did scum!prism hammer bulge?

i dont' know. that's one of the things that was holding me back from commiting to prism-scum earlier, idk why he he takes the hammer when notmafia could have.
maybe he was worried about ydrasse removing her lolvote and just wanted to cement the wagon while he could

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

- i distinctly remember talking bork *out* of scumreading iverson, not sure why you're discounting that. the quote in the spoiler is bork deciding prism is town and cementing that read *because* i wasn't interested in it

Ye i understand the point ur making

Ughhh the only thing I can think of is that Prism already made 3083 - 3085 which you might have been worried would change minds

I'm gonna explode

I don't see how I can beat this

pedit: Infinity time then

Everyone started thinking Infinity was scum for pushing DC over Mom on the previous day super hard, even going so far as to suggest Bork as a partner. I already off the bat don't see why infinity chooses that route (and yes it came off as a very question move) rather than bus Mom and likely win in the future given all of Venus/Cakes/notsci/infinity had decent things going for them.

The whole momentum on infinity today is completely over nothing if DC is scum

I thought infinity came across as town while i was reading the game i would have to look over it again god damn it But infinity isn't scum with DC so i'm really not worried there. Okay couldnt help it and read back, i dont think Infinity defends Mom and Leafeon for sure

DC's reads (like 1174) and approach to NM makes so much more sense

Between how infinity and DC have engaged with my catchup i struggle to believe it's infinity over DC as well

I so strongly think it's DC and not infinity

tweetie.
my. play. yesterday. doesn't. come. from. scum.

it's absurd to me that you don't see this and that i'm your preferred solve

~
and your reasons for townreading infinity are ok ig
but this whole thing looks like a you/infinity solve to me >.>

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

it's unfortunate that i think she's scum tho >.>

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Heya notsci

Aside i just want to say this is literally one of the hardest games i think i've ever played >.<

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

but I feel like if you search MT's and infinity's slots in flipped scum ISOs they look absolutely awful

This?
Can i take a raincheck til tomorrow irl? I have to wake up early for work and will be going to sleep shortly

But rhis is the solve i'm leaning towards
~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

One thing I think is interesting is both infinity and tweet slot were a priority quote in two of the flipped scum

What is a 'priority quote'?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Yes

I've got some plans tomorrow but I'll poke my head in a few times

K will take a look tom but it may not be till after work

[Venus Fly Trap]

Prism did have some p icky associatives with nm, how he kept frealing out at u for pushing him and then ended up on nm anyways and lolhammering bulge despite that

[Venus Fly Trap]

VOTE: infinity

see you all tomorrow.