Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[Bingle]

@bingle please explain what you mean

TLDR, you accidentally posted the exact wording of the OP of the lover thread (not public info) in the summary, I pmd Isis asking if I needed to be force replaced because I didn’t want accidental mod spew from yes to change things if that answer was no, Isis pmd yes and told me to hold on, and the game got rerolled. I could have cross confirmed us by pointing out that your summary contained the exact content of yes’s OP for the lover threads but would have felt bad in doing so, which is probably why the setup ended up getting rerolled.

Also apparently scum actually did get a separate lover thread last time because Ana and Kerset wanted one.

[Bingle]

Kerset isn't acting Towny at all and similar to lqst game is being reaction-provoking such as with Tbone in particular (last game). I scumread the Ker/Bingle pair.

Point out the differences?

[Bingle]

I am lover to RM so I'm kind of resigned to my fate of dying an early tragic death.

Why resigned? We literally just had an example of RM being very limbaity as town, so it’s likely people will default to a townread there.

You have the distinct advantage here of a clear example of RMs towngame that is fresh in everyone’s heads, and let’s be real, rm was the loudest player in the last game.

[Bingle]

I think you mean the similarities. Which I did point out.

I did in fact mean that.

I was more looking for specific posts you think are similar, though.

[Bingle]

From my point of view it just looked like RM was trying to get himself off'd as quickly as possible and I have no reason to believe he wouldn't do the same thing this go-around as well.

Did you read my posts about RM being town last game? Specifically about why he was posting what he was?

What do you think of the idea that RM is naturally going to have a higher threshold to be found scummy.

[Bingle]

Bambi probtown, btw. Fairly high confidence.

[Bingle]

Vex, why did you want to start off the game with summaries of Loverchats?

[Bingle]

can you first confirm what kerset said in your pt?

The sum total of Kerset's contribution to the PT was that Ana'd asked for a lover PT last time. Which was already mentioned.

Can you explain why you think this is going to be useful?

[Bingle]

Counterpoint: We've already discussed the setup and how to play and there's no real reason to rehash that.

Literally everything that is mechanically relevant to the game is something no one has a need to discuss. If you had a lover would you have gone over whether claiming lovers was optimal with them this time around?

[Bingle]

i would've discussed the flips and how i approach reading this game this time

Why is discussing this in the lover thread instead of the main thread better?

[Bingle]

there is also no excuse for "oh we didn't have time to read the flips and discuss it."

:/

What part of "The game was called because I knew you were town as town" flew over your head? Kerset also knew who was scum in the last iteration because he was himself scum.

Do you actually believe anything you're saying?

[Bingle]

you are way smarter than this, and the fact you're trying to pull something like this really makes me think you rolled scum.

:thorface:

I can't tell if you're intentionally being dense, tbh.

[Bingle]

VV:

Subject: Open 811 - Lovers and Losers [Day 1]

for real this time
Jingle why did you refuse to argue Vex? Is it too long or what?

I didn't?

I didn't read the isodive, because why would I. I did ask why Vex thought RM being all over the place was specifically scum indicative as that's what the tl;dr boils down to. He has no consistency and he's flailing about, which I agree is a true statement. The question is why does that make him scum?

[Bingle]

Why would I put wasted effort into describing how I was going to play as town to someone to whom I was confirmed town in this game, when provably as town in the last game I'm not one to waste effort on stupid shit like that?

Why would I as scum not be prepared for a scenario where someone tried to do the thing that literally just happened in the previous iteration of the game?

[Bingle]

Better question:

RM, in our previous PT, did I give any indication of how to read Bambi or Vex, knowing full well that both Bambi and Vex are traditionally difficult reads?

[Bingle]

No, you're asserting that I would have done something that I would never have done.

[Bingle]

The premise behind VV's push is that I would discuss how to read someone with Kerset in the pregame here. Have I given any indication that that is the case?

[Bingle]

but also because you are actively refusing to listen to what i have to say, and trying to strawman my argument.

I sit in a position where I know your argument to be inherently wrong, and I'm not strawmanning it. I'm outright telling you there's nothing relevant to be discussed in the mason thread for this game.

[Bingle]

yes there is though??
we saw that rm was town. they were scumread, and a very easy mis-elim.
we saw that llama was scum. they were townread by basically everyone.

you're telling me that there was nothing to acknowledge or learn from that?

I'm telling you that there's nothing to acknowledge or learn from that that isn't BETTER SERVED BEING DISCUSSED IN THE MAIN THREAD.

[Bingle]

Like, literally my first action in this thread was to poke people over their thoughts about RM last game and how that applied to this game. You know why I poked those people? Because I don't know their alignment and their thought processes can help me determine that. You know what talking about that with Kerset can get me? Fucking nothing. I'm not going to magically be able to read Kerset better, because I know Kerset's town. I'm not going to magically be able to read RM better, because neither Kerset nor I know if RM is town. I'm not going to magically make Kerset better at reading RM, because Kerset is naturally going to approach the game the way Kerset always approaches the game.

[Bingle]

i have said what my reasoning is multiple times, yet you still refuse to acknowledge it.

I have repeatedly said that your reasoning is wrong, because it is.

[Bingle]

Do you want me to get banned for holding a grudge? You need to take my word that i dont enjoy talking with him and dont confuse it with dislike towards player

FWIW, while I'm sad you continue to hold the grudge nothing you've done about it is banworthy. To the best of my knowledge, you've never let it influence your actions in a game to the point where it would be outside interference. I'm sorry that you dislike talking to me, and if you'd prefer I can avoid games with you, but I hold no ill will towards you and can admit that the endgame was probably more toxic than it should have been. I remember vaguely being intensely frustrated over you continually twisting my words, but that's kind of what the game of mafia is about.

[Bingle]

Back to the game, I don't think this push from VV is necessarily a scum push, and I endorse Kerset's T-Bone vote for the moment.

VOTE: T-Bone

[Bingle]

I have emboldened what is likely a slip, however, I can factor in that Bingle is emotionally displaying severe stress and this could be a brainfart made as Town lover hypothetically. I am going to wait for a lot more interaction before voting, which was also my plan last game until the fiesta happened (due in part to me), I always wanted anlong Day Phase 1 because it lets more slips and reads occur, even more so if nobody outs initially but that's irrelevant this game since everyone has willingly outed.

The lovers are mechanically masons, that's not a slip.

[Bingle]

In this setup, I'll probably use the terms mason lovers and hydrae interchangeably, yes.

They're mechanically masons because they know their neighbor's alignment.

[Bingle]

But the mod hasn't confirmed anything, they can't recruit and as Bingle just mentioned, he considers Lovers to be hydra, not masons when using another term. Vex defending it is strange here.

What?

[Bingle]

Is this the fucking twilight zone?

Me calling it the mason thread was not me thinking there was an actual masonry in the setup, it was referencing specifically that the thread contains two players mutually known to be town who could talk.

Vex was clarifying that yes, it is a thread that contains two players mutually known to be town who could talk.

Absolutely none of that was AI.

[Bingle]

do you think i would bus a partner in this setup?

Yes. There's a decent chance it would have won Llama the game last game, despite the necessity of the reroll.

[Bingle]

I don't think you'd bus here, because bambi is pretty obvtown, fwiw.

[Bingle]

re-read what i said bingle.

The part where we agreed this mason tangent is bizarre or the impasse where you think there's valuable pregame discussion for the masons and I explicitly don't?

[Bingle]

I never said we have a cult, I need a break anyway this is getting ridiculous but I townread it being ridiculous because Vex is ridiculous as Town so honestly for me the Vanilla scum is between Bambi and Llama. Vex is more likely Town for suddenly defending Bingle after scumreading Bingle over a genuine error that I can't believe isn't either an accident or a genuine slip made by someone trying to lie and coming up with the wrong role name... Yeah, I think I have no choice to Townread this kind of flipflop by Vex, since it fits with their Town meta last game, as does the tunneling nature of the original interaction.

I will take a break for around two hours at least.

:thorface:

I'm either a scum lover or a town lover or an impressively massive idiot who managed to convince my scumteam to play a truly insanely ballsy gambit with no upside. How would my somehow forgetting my own role name be scum indicative?

[Bingle]

you figured out what i said i think. i got from your post that you were thinking i asked if you thought llama would bus their partner, not me

No, I was saying that given the clear advantage that bussing had in the previous run and the fact that you're not generally a dumbass, you would definitely be willing to bus in this setup.

[Bingle]

Do you agree with me that Bambi is v town rn, VV?

[Bingle]

Nah, definitely would have had an R+J ending, although there was a decent chance you could get rid of RM and I first.

I don't think you would've been well served doing so, as I was prepared to hard defend LF.

[Bingle]

@Ana, what do you make of the VV/me back and forth?

[Bingle]

Kerset, honest answer time please. Why did you think you could push my miselim out of the whole playerlist last game?

:/

[Bingle]

The way you did it with VV, I'm not sure what either of you are trying to accomplish if you're town in that argument.

If VV is town they think they've found a scum indicative thing from me.

If I'm town, I know they haven't and originally asked why they wanted something I see as NAI to read into their motivation.

Now, what is the actual alignment relevant information (based on tone/substance/motivation) that you took from that argument, if anything?

[Bingle]

the only real reason i can see that lovers in this setup wouldn't try to discuss how to read players in this game is if they have factional communication, meaning they're scum.

town is on the time limit to discuss this before the game begins

--scum is not

I began our lovers chat with a riveting conversation with T-Bone about the achievement goal theory of motivation. I wasn't expecting much other than '???' in response, but to my surprise, he responded with meaningful consideration of my points and proposed an alternative to the ideas I set forth in my initial post. I told him this caught me off guard and that if he was actually knowledgeable about the subject, he was probably going to realise that I only like 30% knew what I was talking about. Then he admitted that he had just googled 'achievement motivation theory' and used that to respond to me, and that he wasn't interested in talking about that anymore. Could've fooled me tbh!

Then I said I thought we'd have an easy enough time showing that we're town, and the true challenge here would be solving between the three VTs. And before we got further in our chat the game started.

Vex, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the bolded sections.

[Bingle]

implying that tbone realized the time-pressure and wanted to move on

:/

And what do you make of the fact that TBone didn't talk about anything game relevant in that summation?

[Bingle]

No, Vex can be Town vs you as Scum. Pretty simple third alternative to a bus that still leaves you as Scum, what kind of retort is that anyway? Are you saying it's intuitive and more probable that you did this as Lover who called their Lover PT a Mason thread?

Vex’s alignment has literally nothing to do with the slip.

Regardless of anything else, my role pm has the word lover.

Regardless of anything else, the town lovers are functionally masons.

Literally no one agrees with your nonsense reason for tunneling me.

Maybe consider that, and then look at the thread again with an open mind.

[Bingle]

I've only just realised how difficult this game is for town. At first I thought this was pretty townsided because it's two sets of 2v1s and scum's wincon was to survive to the end of one of them. But actually, if town makes one mistake here, it's already MyLo/LyLo the next day. Scum definitely have the advantage in terms of their level of influence just due to sheer numbers.

To offset this, we could potentially agree to something where the person eliminated decides who is eliminated after them? The odds of one townie/town lover pair being correct in their 50/50 are higher than the odds of successfully voting one of that 50/50 as a group in XLo.

Thoughts?

It is literally a solved EV that yes posted publicly. Town has a 4/9 chance. Once we’ve committed to a lim, we solve within that pool if we’re wrong.

[Bingle]

@TBone

The way you did it with VV, I'm not sure what either of you are trying to accomplish if you're town in that argument.

If VV is town they think they've found a scum indicative thing from me.

If I'm town, I know they haven't and originally asked why they wanted something I see as NAI to read into their motivation.

Now, what is the actual alignment relevant information (based on tone/substance/motivation) that you took from that argument, if anything?

[Bingle]

I find it fascinating that literally 0 players have asked me why I’m townreading Bambi, and in fact most of you are avoiding reads entirely.

[Bingle]

Please name and shame the 'most of people' who are avoiding reads.

VV has given reads on me and kerset and when I dragged out answers about their TR on you it was because you talked about game topics in the lover pt, something that

you

actually didn't do according to Klick.

Ana has very obviously been avoiding reads.

Bambi has been mostly absent.

You have more content than I thought you did, but not by much.

I did mean to limit that to reads on the VT pool, but the level of engagement here is pretty abysmal, and I was letting my frustration over shit tunnels color my perception.

Bambi is likely town because of 33. If she's scum it's a cheeky throwaway comment that's likely to draw attention to itself and something that scum would naturally be disinclined to post.

Honestly, my motivation for this game is incredibly low at this point, and I'm probably just gonna stop giving a shit.

[Bingle]

also jingle, do you really expect that much reasoning from an early townread?

You're scumreading me for not having talked reads in the pt. You're townreading TBone for not having talked reads in the pt but for having shut down an offtopic conversation because clearly he wanted to talk about game relevant topics in the limited time he had, despite Klick's summation showing literally 0 desire on his part to, y'know, talk about reads in the PT.

I am outright telling you that I don't think talking about reads in the PT matters in the slightest, and you KNOW I don't lie about mafia theory.

RM is scumreading me for referring to a PT in a mechanically accurate manner.

Klick is scumreading me because my lover, who apparently has been holding a grudge against me for more than a year, is low efforting.

I could go on, but really, why bother.

My best guess would be TBone/Klick and LF. I have nearly 0 confidence in that solve. I also kind of don't give a fuck anymore.

[Bingle]

you as well did say we have one misstep in both lovers and vts, and i intent to use it if it would provide more information for us.

Nipping this in the bud right now.
Mislimming a lover then a VT without hitting scum in between also loses us the game. Once we lim in a group, we absolutely have to catch the scum in that group before moving on.

That's why townhunting is a strong strategy this game. If we can hard identify a town player in a pool, we can afford to lim the rest of that pool.

Also, wrt which pool we lim in first, it really doesn't matter. The argument that limming a hydra risks losing more voices is hard countered by the fact that if those voices are going to be the lim, they probably aren't going to be listened to anyway.

[Bingle]

if bambi's playstyle is what i think it is, i don't really care, since i know i'll be able to read them.

70% you, 20% FL, 10% Pink Buddy.

[Bingle]

That's why townhunting is a strong strategy this game. If we can hard identify a town player in a pool, we can afford to lim the rest of that pool.

Okay. Your staking the game on a town pick (obviously excluding you) from each pool. Go.

Didn't I just say a couple pages ago what my solve would be, but that I had little confidence?

If I had to pick right now it'd be Bambi as VT and Ana/RM as town lovers.

[Bingle]

@jingle who’s the other vt?

I'm leaning you, but I'm honestly unsure. You and RM both going after me for NAI nonsense left me pretty tilted. Do you agree that Bambi calling out the final lover pair before they outed is probably a town move?

[Bingle]

Llama's heyday is before I was on site. He was the listmod (Open queue) when I modded my first game.

[Bingle]

I see you didn't post a scum game for me to read. And it's a very tame insult.

Tame or not, let’s try to not insult people. Except Bingle, that guy is fucking awful.

[Bingle]

I see you didn't post a scum game for me to read. And it's a very tame insult.

Searching RM’s topics, he doesn’t seem to have a recent scum game to link.

The only game I can remember for sure playing with scumhim he was far worse, but I’m also inclined to believe him when he says he’s improved over the years.

[Bingle]

Tell me you are aligned with the town and I'll be yours, heart and soul.

Kerset is town aligned and has been locked away by the scum team. We need your help solving the VTs to mount a rescue.

[Bingle]

The only game I can remember for sure playing with scumhim he was far worse, but I’m also inclined to believe him when he says he’s improved over the years.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=33257

[Bingle]

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex.

What do you think of the Vex/LF back and forth?

[Bingle]

Personally, I think LF comes across as super town, but I may be falling into a personality read there.

[Bingle]

So what is your thought then on Vex seemingly to prefer a vote on me when they claim that I cant be read, but Bambi can? Do you agree that it seems that if Vex is town, the correct approach would be to read Bambi and then use that to form an opinion on me? Otherwise its just voting town out first followed by saying "By PoE Bambi is scum". Thats not reading Bambi.

Ha. Ninja'd.

[Bingle]

Also an aside... change skin color when on an alt. That helped me in the past.

Maftiger is the only skin.

[Bingle]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

This, btw, is the exact argument RM had before game 1.

It's wrong (still) but I can understand the argument.

Functionally, we have two sets of three players. one of those sets is hydrae. If the hydrae are better at reading the game they're more valuable, but that assumes the hydrae are better at reading the game. From each individual player's POV, solving in your own pool is easier, but that just means that half of the functionally 4 townies will have an easier time in either pool. It's not actually a mechanical advantage to eliminate in either pool and people should 100% just be going after their strongest scumread for the first lim. (or alternatively, their strongest scumread in a pool where they can locktown someone.)

Kerset, are we agreed that Llama is town, or am I personality biasing here?

[Bingle]

I don't think Ana comes out with this play in her position as scum
right now her lover pair is positioned best and on paper this plan is sketchy af. Why come out with something like this and potentially ruin their spot?

?

You realize you suggested basically the same plan but generalized a while back, right? Why is it suddenly sketchy as fuck?

[Bingle]

I think there's a slight advantage to voting in the lovers as you're left with more ACTUAL confirmed townies upon success, meaning more town influence over the vote. If we hit the scum lovers for example, all of a sudden we have four conftown that can control how we vote and one scum with a vote. That's a lot better than the alternative, having 2 conftown and 2 scum players influencing the vote.

Basically in terms of alignment they're equivalent, but in terms of game influence the lovers are more valuable.

Again, no.

If successful elim, more town votes. If unsuccessful elim more scum votes. This is true regardless of pool. More people =/= better reads.

The answer, mechanically and subjectively, will always be “eliminate the scummiest person D1. If you didn’t hit scum, try again in the same pool.”

[Bingle]

CV

[Bingle]

(unless we're just agreeing that one there's confirmed town, they finalise any vote we make?)

Conftown having a disproportionate influence on the lim is how conftown works, yes.

[Bingle]

It's only wrong if you're a VT or scum at this point.

From specifically my POV it’s easier to solve lovers mechanically, true. There are an equal number of townies (by the hydra logic) for which the exact opposite is true.

For the town as a whole, which pool we lim in is a net even. And yeah, if I decide that one of the solo players is scummier than the 50/50 of you AnaRm, I will definitely lim there. Your repeated “I only want to look at the lovers” feels like an attempt to not look at the solo pool, when if you are scum your partner is in the solo pool.

[Bingle]

One of these is a general method of successfully eliminating scum even if we miss the first time
The other is just suggesting we vote Llama

FTFY. The only functional difference between your plans is that Ana has stated she wants to BoP vote Llama.

While I don’t agree with the BoP vote, it doesn’t make the plan less reasonable.

OTOH the plan itself is bad, unless you’re specifically going for a BoP vote. First of all, it absolves the other players of responsibility in the second elim resulting in less cross pool associations for use in solving when we get to the other pair. Second it presumes that the players are going to follow through on the elim, which is by no means a guarantee. And third, it presumably puts our fates in the hands of the scummiest player, which... is not a good idea.

If I were magically eliminated right here and now, I wouldn’t want town to blindly choose to lim you and tbone, my current lean in the lovers. I would want town to reevaluate and consider between your pair and AnaRm because I’m not infallible and mafia isn’t a game best played by rolling dice.

[Bingle]

Klick, you’re townreading llama, right?

What do you think about VV/Bambi?

[Bingle]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game threatening LlamaFluff.

[Bingle]

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

Hm. Expand on this for me.

[Bingle]

Also the person among the VTs I think is scum is the leading wagon so let's not pretend that A: I haven't thought about the VTs at all, B: that I haven't repeatedly voiced this read and C: that there's anything else I need to do there. What do you want me to do, argue with VV over my read of them?

Could you link examples for B and explain why you have the read you have?

[Bingle]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game threatening LlamaFluff.

You should be afraid of me to and not worry about threats to LlamaFluff or else O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game trying to prevent me from reporting them for threatening LF. Checkmate

[Bingle]

Jokes aside 562 is my most immediate concern.

[Bingle]

That seems like a you problem, not a me problem. You're not going to convince me that I'm scum.

Litigating your reads when people are attempting to work out both your alignment and the alignment of the people you’re claiming the reads on is very much a you problem, but I see you did expand on my question in 563. Could you likewise explain 562? I promise there’s a reason.

[Bingle]

Bingle empty quoted the question with a snarky smiley, and you gave a snarky answer.

As best I can tell the only snark I have recently is a joke post about you threatening llama. What have I failed to answer?

[Bingle]

O actually am confused what Bingle explained he townreads Bambi for, is it the Klick vote? I read his explanation and didn't quite understand.

In this post:

I'm gonna laugh if both the former VTs Klick and Tbone are the last lover pair and Llama got single again. Regardless of which of these 3 are paired, one of the singles stayed Single. That's sad.

Bambi made a joke about it being funny if Klick and TBone were the last lover pair, before Klick and TBone outed as lovers. I thought ScumBambi would 100% know that they were for some reason, which was wrong in hindsight. (Bambi would only know Klick and Tbone were the last lover pair in advance with an exact Klick/Tbone/Bambi team) and thought it unlikely that Bambi would make a joke that risked being taken as TMI as scum when scum would be hyper aware of things like that, so I sought second opinions.

My original vote on Tbone, which is still there right now, was because he called out the Bambi post as weird but didn’t follow through on any questioning, although I didn’t explain that until right now.

[Bingle]

Ration going against Tbone? Good enough reason for me to trust Tbone on this. I was also voting Kerset before I got distracted by Ration annoying me.

VOTE: Kerset

We’re not in a rush and Tbone is actually starting to be really readable. Let me do my sorting thing, Bambi.

[Bingle]

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.

Given this, I think the real question Llama wants answered is why haven't you been trying to talk to Bambi in order to sort her?

[Bingle]

I mean quite simply if you were scum you'd know the exact role distribution of the game by the time Klick, Llama, and I were left to claim.

Actually untrue in hindsight if you're town, but I had literally the same thought process.

If Bambiscum/youtown, Bambi doesn't know which one of you/Klick/Llama is the VT and which is a lover. Bambi had the TMI specifically in the case that the team is you/Klick/Bambi.

But yeah, people (VV and Kers) told me I was tinfoiling the townread, so :shrug:.

[Bingle]

I'll ask you since Kerset refuses. When Kerset is repeating something they did as scum from the previous game, what am I supposed to think?

Why is Kerset trying to provoke additional content to help read people? I feel like that is pretty self explanatory. I also feel like thinking Klick/Bambi/VV/Ana are light on content is still reasonable and that thinking you were light on content when you two started this whole back and forth was reasonable.

Looking at the other thread, I also don't think Kerset is super similar, but I'm pretty biased in that I know there was an alignment change there.

[Bingle]

I'm not asking you to answer for him. But if you two are actually the other town pair Bingle, then it's important to me that you understand where I'm coming from, because if I am wrong (which is your contention), then I can't begin to correct my read without some mutual understanding.

I think the thing I would ask in your position (assuming, of course, I was town and had the same assumptions) would be whether poking for content is a reasonable thing to be doing. And I think the answer is an emphatic yes.

Like, Kerset has been poking people to post more content because people haven't been posting enough content to be readable. I feel like that's obvious, although maybe it is less so to someone else. Whether they did last time is immaterial if it's something that needs to be done. Do you think Kers just not interacting with the thread would be more towny? Is there another way you'd expect Kerset to attempt to get more info into the thread as town? Do you think the level of engagement from Klick/Ana/Bambi in particular actually is satisfying?

[Bingle]

I'm a little bit shocked how hard everyone is leaning into <single game meta reads, tbh. Like, the narrative of RM is locktown because he was aggressive and I was wrong last game and he's aggressive this game is nonsense fmpov, and doesn't sound like town reasoning. At most the conclusion should be "I'm going to have difficulty reading RM" because there is absolutely nothing to compare town RM to to confirm he wouldn't be aggressive as scum. (Hard bet that he would.) The narrative of "Kerset is scum because they're poking people for additional content" is bad when there's a clear town motivation behind that action. VV asserting both that they should be able to read Bambi but can't and that they don't have an issue with that is troubling, to say the least, and Llama poking there is easily the towniest thing in the thread.

TBone ignoring my requests to respond to get him to talk about

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

Hm. Expand on this for me.

is immensely frustrating to me, because I thought it might have been a town perspective slip and I don't know why town doesn't expand on it if it's something he truly believed, even if he then realized he was ass backwards. At this point, he's had enough time to look at it that I can't even trust the slip if it was one, so I might as well out it for people to talk about and hopefully get some kind of life into this game.

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

This is actually untrue. From a scum PoV, both pools are equally viable. The 50/50 solve thing actually only applies from the town POV and specifically the town POV where they prioritize their own reads over the reads of the thread. Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

[Bingle]

FWIW I don’t see a difference between “pushing people for activity and pushing people to make content that isn’t semantics. I also think you’re think you’re entirely missing my point either willfully or not.

I also feel like I very clearly have been willing to consider the case where you’re town, considering the 1/3 of that post talking about what I think might be a perspective slip.

I guess the tldr though is this:

You’ve argued that Kerset did this as scum. I’m asking why Kerset wouldn’t do this as town. Given that I know Kerset is town, you aren’t going to convince me, but hearing your reasoning might help me in reading you.

[Bingle]

Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I actually said the opposite to what Tbone said (I saod that Town Lovers should push on Vanillas to avoid misfiring Lovers and being framed) by the way, not the same, though the way it was framed is extremely similar as I was saying the 50% chance to misfire makes it safer to push on Vanillas as Town Lover.

You say Scum don't care which pool becuase both are viable and that this is true because Scum can win either 1v2 but Town perspective is not only the same, they have 2v1 in either pool and under your logic should have even less bias which pool they eliminate in.

In other words, what I am saying here is that there is no right or wrong perspective with regards to where to initiate pressure out of the two trios, regardless of alignment. It coems down to the situation and if any strong read appears.

NGL, I glossed over the actual content of your theory crafting in the pt. I’m also gonna take you at your word about the theory crafting last game because it’s p much irrelevant atp. We are agreed that the correct play is to elim the scummiest player on D1, regardless of the pool they’re in.

[Bingle]

VC 1.15

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Vex Vience (1)

- LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

Vote count is unchanged from this. VFP switched and switched back.

[Bingle]

Smart, dual isoing me and Tbone is probably worth it.

[Bingle]

CV

[Bingle]

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

We are also currently the defacto plurality lim. Given that if nothing changes we die, asking people to commit to a stance on us seems common sense.

[Bingle]

@SS did you read the requested iso?

[Bingle]

I can’t shake the feeling here that TBone is trying to get me to legitimize his Kerset push.

Objectively, it is true that scumKerset pushed people based on inactivity in the last game. Objectively, it is true that Kerset pushed people based on inactivity this game. The issue with TBone’s conclusion is that in both cases, pushes based on activity we’re warranted.

There’s this sort of unspoken presumption that townKerset couldn’t push people based on inactivity this game, and every time I’ve pointed it out it feels like there’s been a sort of handwaive of that whole concept. I’m having trouble believing that Tbone is that ridiculously bad at utilizing meta. (Single source, complete dismissal of the concept of NAI behaviors)

I’ve tried to get answers to this, but as I see it TBones argument is that Kerset as town could only sit there helplessly in the face of inactivity and NAI bullshit as opposed to pushing people based on inactivity. I also feel like every time I’ve attempted to reach out to solve TBone I’ve been brushed off and chastised for not being willing to try to solve TBone.

I’d like other people to look at our interactions and see if they see the same thing.

[Bingle]

@All lover pairs voting another lover pair - Explain your read on the pair you are not voting. Basically how much of your vote is a scum read, how much is a town read on other pair.

RM is nulltown, mostly because of the whole mason thing. I think it comes across as slightly more likely that he is genuine in his belief than that he’s going this all in on an obvious shit tunnel when he strikes me as someone who really wants to be right, and more to the point, be seen to be right. Ana legitimately isn’t playing the game.

I’m mostly voting in the lover pool because I disagreed with kers about the VT pool, although I’m not sure how the replace effects that, tbh. I think you’re town and thought VV not trying to engage Bambi was scummy. Kers thinks Bambi is scummy and while I can see it as possible I’m not really feeling it.

[Bingle]

I’d like other people to look at our interactions and see if they see the same thing.

I don't see it.

Your opinion is uniquely meaningless to me, but thank you.

[Bingle]

Uhhh bruh you brush me off. Don't even try to play the 'T-Bone isn't working with me whaaaa' when literally that's what I've been doing this entire day phase. Even though yes Kerset is scummy, nonetheless I've been working you (and to a much lesser extent Kerset) to help my understanding of the game, and I often got dishonesty in response...which you've just done again in this post.

Yeah... see here’s the rub. You keep saying this. I keep looking back and not seeing it. This leaves me with two possibilities. I’m entirely misreading things or my impressions are right. I asked SS for an opinion trying not to color his analysis, but we’re running out of time and as things stand I’m about to die and be proven town.

FMPOV town you absolutely wants me to get external opinions to look at the interactions because town you thinks you come across as good in them.

[Bingle]

"T-Bone is scumreading Kerset for trying to game solve"

I feel like I've been pretty clear that I think you're scumreading Kerset for trying to push the game to a place where he CAN gamesolve, which is an inherently different thing but still town motivated.

As far as the VT's: That's exactly why I'm asking the VTs. To see if their input makes me come to some sudden "Aha! This is where the miscommunication is!"


FWIW, bussing is actually probably better than normal in this game. The scum wincon is functionally "Get one scum to be locktowned, regardless of who it is."

[Bingle]

I mean... I think unless someone is being obtuse we are heading to:

Kerset/Bingle - TBone/VFP, SS, Bambi
Tbone/VFP - Kerset/Bingle, Ana/RM
Ana/RM - The hero of our story

If people dont agree with where I am putting them, they probably need to move their vote.

I think Ana actually supports a Kerset/Bingle lim, from what little I can actually pull from her ISO.

[Bingle]

Doesnt my vote give somewhat of an idea about where my thoughts are on your pairs? As in I would rather VV/SS go, but if in lover pool... neither of you two?

I know you think both TBone and I are more likely to be town via the Ana vote, but I don't know how you parse our back and forth.

Are you just glossing over it because wall battle? Do you think I'm being dishonest as town? Do you think TBone is being dishonest as town? Do you think we're just entirely missing each other's points?

[Bingle]

Walk me through this more love.

You saying this gives me flashbacks to watching British court dramas (and satires) as a kid and mishearing m’lord as m’love.

Thank you.

[Bingle]

VC 1.24

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (4)

- LlamaFluff, VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (3)

- Bingle, RationalMadman, Anastasia

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting -

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

Current VC.

SS, are you saying that you read me and TBone's ISOs and don't have any thoughts as to who is scummy because of them?

[Bingle]

VOTE: SS

I'm coldfeeting on lovers pool. I don't really want a TBone elim today. I'm also willing to gamble on LF being town, even if I'm wrong here.

[Bingle]

The pivot.

TBone pivoting off of us put his pair at far greater risk than they previously had been.

Also, I think it's been pretty clear all day that I have 1 strong read, and it's not a scum read.

[Bingle]

I mean, I guess I should say VFP pivoting, but the pivot itself came at a really weird time for scum to 'reconsider' and a pretty natural time for town to reconsider.

[Bingle]

Please stop being dishonest RM, thank you.

Please stop being dishonest Tbone.

Thank you.

I wasn’t aware I was a dishonest RM or TBone, but I’ll try to stop.

I apologize in advance for the dad joke.

[Bingle]

Vex tried to kill Llama first cuz they couldn't read him as well as me due to us having similar personalities...

Well there seems to be a step missing here. If Vex voted Llama because Vex couldn't read Llama but they can read you, then presumably Vex voted Llama because they can read you and got a townread on you. Or else what you said is a mischaracterization, because even if they had a blatantly scum-motivated reason, they wouldn't have admitted as much in the thread.

Can you point to where Vex explained this?

See this gets to the core point of why I have VV as scum.

They apparently after a game that got called after 48 hours and 12 pages were so scared of me, that they would rather vote me over Bambi. However they state that they think they Bambi is a player that they can read. Then *never* got a read on Bambi, or did anything to make that read on Bambi happen. That was the crux of VV being scum. A cop out of "im afraid of a player" who there was very limited time to ever get a read on, coupled with apparently a confidence to read another player on, which from their standpoint as town would reveal my alignment, and no follow through.

There is a difference between town being lazy and scum trying to stall. I dont doubt that VV actually lost time and needed to be replaced, but how someone says "I cant read X, but can read Y" when Y to them is opposite of X and never makes an attempt to read X is town. Thats why I think Vex was scum. I get trying to form a read of one player off of another. I dont get the feeling that its your only option (especially as again they had about 48 hours of D1 scum me experience) and then never following through on it.

I guess also to an extent there are more than just me scum reading VV on not feeling the same, but I dont trust my meta fully as again very small sample and its hard to compare players when you were playing as scum but now as town as you pay attention to a lot of different things.

@RM what does this do to your “LF unvoted thing?”

[Bingle]

actually bingle why did you pick SS in particular?

I assumed llama would come with and wanted to see the other pairs reactions. I know you think Bambi is scum, but all I expected to learn going there would be that RM didn’t want to die which is null.

Also, I’ve been pretty meh on the SS slot post rep in. I’ll be around for real sometime before deadline, but I genuinely think this flip does the most for solving the game.

[Bingle]

VC

CV

[Bingle]

FWIW, Kers, if you tell me you’re super confident somewhere I’ll sheep. I’ve been struggling with reads all game and am more than willing to hand over the reigns.

[Bingle]

16ish hours to go. As it stands SS is dying here. Just to note im not entirely sure I am going to be on near deadline (about 7-8am my time), if so it might just be minutes before it hits.

I'd prefer to have the decision made by tonight, but I can be available for ~3 hours before deadline if necessary.

[Bingle]

Well maybe I can convince one of Ana or Bingle I'm town but I guess that depends which pair is scum.

Ana voting you goes against her stated position of wanting to BoP Llama, and you know I'm the kind of person to take my time in XLO. What is your read on Llama if you're worried about this?

[Bingle]

I don't understand something about the situation yesterday, why did Bingle and Kerset both imply the other could hijack their vote if need be (Kerset even asked mod explicitly to allow this) but then vote separate anyway and stay silent for the remainder of the day phase?

I was prepared to get up at 6 AM to be able to be around right at deadline, but saw the hammer at 2 something and decided not to. I did have paranoia about SS flipping town, but I felt like LF has been pretty transparently town all game and was more sure on that than any other option available to me at the time.

I am reading your arguments, Ana, and will do a complete reread of the thread before I actually make a decision, barring Kerset asking me to blindly sheep.

I will say that I'm convinced that LF/Ana aren't S/S here. With the presumption that LF probably doesn't lose this 50/50, Scum Ana probably doesn't put this much effort into a 1v1 with her buddy.

That leaves potential scumteams to look at of Llama/Tbone/VFP, Bambi/TBone/VFP, Bambi/Ana/RM.

[Bingle]

the base points

What are "The base points"?

Like, tl;dr, what should I be looking for to see Bambi town here?

[Bingle]

ngl, I'm disengaged enough that I wouldn't be confident in any answer I gave. I was mostly looking for a place to bias my read towards you a little to balance out my bias towards Llama town, but I promise to pay special attention to the solve while reading. Probably tonight.

[Bingle]

If the vote ends 4-4 doesn't it double eliminate? (I am aware why that's bad, we need vanilla to allow a moselimination on Lovers afterwards) but it's something to consider. I actually NEED Ana to switch if Bambi is to be eliminated as Scum here. I am writing this out because it didn't occur to me how problematic the disagreement between Ana and myself is here until I actually thought about what plurality voting causes to happen in a 4-4.

No. First of all, that would trigger a scum win immediately as two VT were limmed. Second of all, this is standard plurality. First to highest is limmed. So whoever reached four votes first would get eliminated.

[Bingle]

I'm gonna laugh if both the former VTs Klick and Tbone are the last lover pair and Llama got single again. Regardless of which of these 3 are paired, one of the singles stayed Single. That's sad.

Currently reading and the two things that stick out are I'm townread by BingleBangle and he and Vex argued about something. Oh and Ration called out my meme vote but that's expected.

The PT talk felt filler mainly cuz of the fact no decent player as evil doesn't make a fake PT discussion this time. Honestly hearing About ana complaining about Ration was the main believable one and that's NAI. Funny but NAI.

Vex I wanted to blindly trust you over Llama to make it easier on me but now my blind townread of my former lover is now null and void. I might just be missing something at work but it felt like needless banter.

Also who yelled at Bing for literally just using Mason as exaggeration? It was obvious what he meant.

That was a painful read. I did come away from it liking Ana/RM (mostly just due to their topic summary) as town a bit.

TBone/VFP, apologies if I missed it but do you agree that Ana/LF probably isn't S/S?

[Bingle]

Oh, whoops, didn't realize I had those quoted.

[Bingle]

TBone/VFP, apologies if I missed it but do you agree that Ana/LF probably isn't S/S?

Actually, I'd kind of like a pair analysis for every pair from everyone.

AnaRM LF doesn't make sense to me because of the consistent push at BoP'ng LF from Ana, both yesterday and today.

I don't think AnaRM Bambi is much more likely given the mutual personality PL bullshit early D1 from RM and Bambi. That seems needlessly toxic as scum theater, and I don't think scum would resort to that when there were multiple other options.

TBoneVFP/Bambi and TBoneVFP/Fluff both seem viable as of 22

[Bingle]

Disorganization between RM&Ana might be a towntell. RM isn't kind of person that would sabotage partners plan to set up chain elim 505.

If you give RM plan in PT that

, he would play along, because he likes that kind of scheming (based on his pregame talks?).

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

I actually quite like this reasoning.

[Bingle]

Didn't mean to include 540.

[Bingle]

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

He already did!

This is very cheeky if S/S.

How cheeky is your scumgame TBone?

[Bingle]

If players fail to get a majority vote before the deadline, plurality vote will be applied
In plurality voting, the player with the most votes is eliminated. In case of ties, the player who reached the most votes first will be eliminated

Feel free to get confirmation, but this is 2 and 3 under voting and both Llama and I helped yes workshop the setup prior to the game starting.

I'm actually pretty confident in a Bambi/TBone/VFP solve assuming I'm right about RM/Ana town.

The TBone/Klick Llama interactions red more like buddying than an attempt to sort. RM is significantly less unreasonable sounding now that I've had a chance to cool off from the lover's PT is a functional masonry shitshow, and Bambi and TBone both come across as trying to rile him up in multiple different places.

TBone's townread of Bambi was very early and very underdeveloped, but he never actually addressed that when asked.

[Bingle]

Actually, I'd kind of like a pair analysis for every pair from everyone.

btw

@Bambi and RM.

[Bingle]

Cant see how this matters today.

Because you now have 3 viable scumteams from your POV and how you look at said scumteams is probably the most reliable way to read you.

Like... The only answer I get from you and Bambi fighting is which one of you has more charisma/WIM/rhetorical grasp on the situation. That's NAI. Your perspective there is that you want the other person eliminated.

If you work on a solve in the other three, then there's actually AI shit to examine (Like whether a read is made up or genuine) and in the case that we don't lose today it can only be helpful tomorrow.

[Bingle]

Nope. Its now at best WIFOM. Its actually probably detrimental to an extent because a wrong read from me probably loses us the game right here. Scum get ammo, town can get paranoid or somewhat OMGUSy. As stated many times, any tells between VT pool and Lover pool are weak at best outside of maybe today where scum will take a win if they can.

Theory chain:

Today the motivation of {LF, Bambi} is to get {Bambi, LF} elimmed, regardless of alignment.
Whichever of {LF, Bambi} is town also has the motivation of being able to find scum in the outside pool.
Whichever of {LF, Bambi} is scum also has the motivation of being able to leave their partners as looking town if they are the elimination today.
Point 2 is a stronger motivation than point 3, as it will always be relevant to that player.
If today does not end in a scumwin, whoever is town in {LF, Bambi} will be the most trusted voice for the rest of the game, and, more importantly, will definitely be able to post.

Why should we not look at the sole aspect of the game where you and Bambi have inherently different motivations? Do you disagree with any of this?

[Bingle]

What does this mean, I thought I gave this already when being voted off.

You did, to an extent, but we have a very limited list of options to consider with more information available than we had yesterday and I'd like your thoughts on all of them.

From a RationalMadman PoV, if you're town the viable scumteams are:

LF/us
Bambi/us
LF/TBVFP
Bambi/TBVFP

I'd like you to look at each of those teams individually and say if you think they make sense, with as concise a set of reasoning as you possibly can.

[Bingle]

VC

CV

[Bingle]

Two, I'm deciding whether Bambi reversed pocketed me on Day 1, but the only person I can reliably discuss that with is VFP.

So... Where is this discussion?

Do you not realize that you discussing with VFP might inform the reads of those players who are also trying to determine if it's LF or Bambi? If you're town and you guess right, that literally doesn't matter if the other town pair doesn't guess right.

[Bingle]

TBone's townread of Bambi was very early and very underdeveloped, but he never actually addressed that when asked.

He did revaluate that it could be due to pocket.

I stopped my reread at like page 30, but if you could link it I'd be appreciative.

[Bingle]

I think there's a major misconception here. We're eliminating in LF/Bambi today, that much is true. There is absolutely no reason we shouldn't also be looking at the alignments of the other three pairs, because if we're right today we still have to win the rest of the game.

[Bingle]

Two and Three are WIFOM unless you are actually trying to say that you feel you can accurately tell the difference between town pushing reads and scum faking a read assuming they are going to die and scum faking a read trying to win it right here. Remember scum have daytalk, they get to coordinate exactly what the Goon does here. Not only all of that but it starts getting into a threat area of what happens if my reads go against town pair reads? Like if I said that "I think its probably X, if not them Y as I am almost 100% sure its not Z" and Z is your top scum pick. If you are town do you think that actually has zero impact on your read of me? Its all WIFOM and its all stuff that scum can very easily manipulate. I need to prove I am town, and I think everyone knows that my reads on anyone else today are pretty much irrelevant. The ones who are probably most worried about them are scum, because if I lock in correctly today, they cant afford to bus.

Two and three are literally the point of mafia.

Attempting to discern the motivations of other players while some of those other players are genuine and some of those players are not is literally the definition of the genre of game we're playing.

I'm not asking you for "TBone is town." I'm asking you to provide reasoning behind "TBone is town" that I can look at and go "Oh, hey, this makes sense." or "I could see why a town player might think that" or "There's no way anyone actually comes to that conclusion, he's full of shit."

If you need to prove you're town, how are you going to do that without saying things that can, you know, actually be analyzed?

[Bingle]

Also, something very strange has happened to both you AND Llama. Day one I think I was the only member of this game that actively opposed the way people were grouping teams solely based on an assumption that Scum don't distance in this setup. I believe I was directly disagreed on this by both Tbone's pair (VFP especially) and you (but not Kerset). The only vanilla claim that directly agreed with me was S_S, Vex actually disagreed with me on this and when S_S said it would be stupid for the lone to buddy the pair it's what made me townread him even harder thsn I already did and want badly for the Bambi elim to happen instead of S_S.

Distancing and Bussing are very different from Buddying.

This setup encourages distancing and bussing because it doesn't actually change the number of necessary miseliminations for scum to win.
This setup doesn't encourage buddying a scumpartner.

Also, I don't recall doing much partner analysis yesterday, although what I've done today does actually lead me to believe you're town. (Which should be evident from the last few pages.)

[Bingle]

I can’t wait for an explanation as to how this isn’t just a terrible idea, tbh.

[Bingle]

I don’t understand what benefit this would have other than risk a 33% chance loss.

I’d be interested in hearing how you arrived at 33% loss after Bambi explains herself. I also don’t think you’ve shared your analysis of potential partner groups yet.

[Bingle]

I would *love* for you to explain how as scum I decide to bus Ana/RM out of nowhere entirely unprompted and then decide to completely flip that on SS.

Lynx?

[Bingle]

Well it would be 33% from Bambi's PoV.
From 1 pair being, you know... scum.

Not really. It's actually substantially more than that or substantially less than that from TownBambi's PoV. If you're talking from a position where she has already lost any game with RM/Ana scum it's a safe move for specifically her. If you're talking from a PoV of uninformed VT it's the case where either you or us are scum with Llama, which would be 66% of the time.

Kerset's suggestion would indeed conftown us with no risk of anyone else being able to hammer, but I don't know why anyone would actually agree to that since if you're townreading us to the extent of being willing to go through with that plan then you've functionally conftowned us anyways and it's just a useless gesture.

[Bingle]

The plan from Bambi is so scum sided, I think I favour Bambi over Llama for it.
T-Bone, think I'm just being Paranoid here or is this reasonable?

Why does scum Bambi suggest it?

[Bingle]

The plan from Bambi is so scum sided, I think I favour Bambi over Llama for it.
T-Bone, think I'm just being Paranoid here or is this reasonable?

Why does scum Bambi suggest it?

To win?

The premise being Bambi sees the glaring flaw in the plan and assumes all 5 town players will miss it? Or that this is a wifom play to set up Bambi’s partners to endgame?

[Bingle]

Did you ignore the point where you specifically stated you were considering Town Bambi's PoV and I responded in kind? Cause it seems like you did.

Kerset's suggestion would only have a drawback if we were scum, yes. That is factually true. It's also a moot point because in a situation where it's viable we're already locktown and nothing is really gained.

[Bingle]

To prove your town to Tbone and VFP.

Yeah... But the plan to prove we're town to Tbone and VFP relies on TBone and VFP trusting us enough to treat us as confirmed town, and is therefore useless.

[Bingle]

We win if we confirm 1 town pair and I know Kerset and Bingle won't let Tbone and VFP be the ones not voting. If we confirm Kerset and Bingle we win.

No?

We win if we correctly solve BOTH 2v1s. Even if I become conftown here (And thus Tbone and RM's alignments become a moo point) we STILL have to solve you LF.

[Bingle]

I didn't say town Bambi though?

Bringing percentages in at all implies that the perspective you're examining is town. If Bambi is scum she has perfect information and knows that we're town.

Like, I'm trying to work out what your thought process here is.

How is scumBambi going to win because of this suggestion? This isn't a trick question. I want to see a thought process, not surface level "That's scummy".

[Bingle]

Again, you also are unable to determine motivations between me/Bambi just based on me actually trying to drive wagons and move things and them just... sheeping most of my reads?

Ignoring an avenue of scumhunting is dumb. I'm going to look at all of the evidence I can possibly look at and I encourage everyone to do the same.

[Bingle]

I'm around.

[Bingle]

now please unvote as I actually lean TBone pair as scum atm.

[Bingle]

I mean... I've been on site most of the day. If I were scum looking to qh I would have paid attention here.

[Bingle]

How is this lucky? Are you saying me and Ana are scum?

No. He's saying that the 1v1 is no longer Bambi/Llama but Bambi/AnaRM. Which is true. Bambi is confscum or you're scum. Theoretically, Bambi/RM/Ana is possible from the POV of all of the other players as town, so Llama never gets voted out today.

[Bingle]

@Kerset: Sorry if you already have, but did you give thoughts on this?

TBone/VFP, apologies if I missed it but do you agree that Ana/LF probably isn't S/S?

Actually, I'd kind of like a pair analysis for every pair from everyone.

AnaRM LF doesn't make sense to me because of the consistent push at BoP'ng LF from Ana, both yesterday and today.

I don't think AnaRM Bambi is much more likely given the mutual personality PL bullshit early D1 from RM and Bambi. That seems needlessly toxic as scum theater, and I don't think scum would resort to that when there were multiple other options.

TBoneVFP/Bambi and TBoneVFP/Fluff both seem viable as of 22

[Bingle]

You proved that two buttons does the same thing but it doesn't imply that we have to press the second one.

Theoretically, RM/Ana/Bambi could be a team. In that case, hammering Llama loses us the game while hammering RM/Ana does not. In all cases where hammering Llama doesn't lose us the game, hammering RM/Ana does not lose us the game. Therefore we should never lim Llama here.

[Bingle]

Logic always can screw you over later but if we go for this I want you to look at the interactions between me and Ration and Ana, then Llama's reactions with them. I'm not the best at describing things but I have said why the make more sense together.

I explicitly don't think you're scum with AnaRM. I think you're scum with Tbone.

[Bingle]

I don't quite see why Llama thinks we should think he can't be scum with Kerset/Bingle. He keeps presenting "I only have one possible scum team, Bambi has three" which feels very misleading and makes me think that's the point.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is a scum claim. It's literally the only argument he can make here, but that doesn't make it any less wrong.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Bambi

[Bingle]

VOTE: Bambi

I think that this is wrong choice.

UNVOTE:

Do you really think it's Ana and LF?

Like... that whole interaction doesn't read scumtheater to me.

[Bingle]

@bingle how do we resolve this? Do i make case for llama and you make case for bambi?

I mean... my case for bambi is that I really don't think it's ana/RM.

I'm willing to sheep you if you're that sure though.

[Bingle]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

The whole point is that from a perspective of everyone who isn't you and Ana, you and Ana not being town is possible.

Like, I personally townread you, but based entirely on mechanics you would not have been able to quick hammer if you were partnered with Llama. You would also not have been able to quick hammer if you were partnered with Bambi.

Llama can literally only be scum if you are also scum, so if anyone is willing to vote llama, they should instead vote you because there are twice as many worlds where you are scum as worlds where llama is scum, and the worlds where llama is scum are all worlds where you are scum.

I literally cannot be scum with Llama at this point, so you can trust that between the two of us at least one of us is telling the truth here.

[Bingle]

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

The mindset is that purely from a numbers place, we win 0% of the games we lose by limming LF if we lim AnaRM. We win a nonzero % of the games we lose by limming AnaRM by limming LF.

It's objectively true that limming RM/Ana is superior from the POV of any town player outside of RM/Ana.

The pushback on that is both bizarre and a waste of time.

[Bingle]

All rectangles are not squirrels.

But are all squirrels squares?

[Bingle]

VOTE: llama but we need 5, so i will move if you insist

Eh.

I'll trust you. I think you're wrong, but I'll trust you. I frankly don't have the WIM to argue the TBone/Bambi/VFP team I think it is anyway.

VOTE: Llama

VFP, prove yourself conftown or win the game please.

[Bingle]

VOTE: RM

This is now confscum to me. I am willing to vote whichever vt kers/vfp/Tbone arrive at.

[Bingle]

Completely unrelated to the game and aimed at the mod, but:

@Mod: since Llama surpassed me in votes for a bit but we're tied again, is he set to die in plurality or is it me since I was at 3 first? That seems like important information to have rn.

In case of ties, the player who reached the most votes

first

will be eliminated

I just noticed this (and it's in the rules so it's how plurality should work in this game) but this is actually not the standard implementation of plurality.

Standard is most recently highest:

If A is at four and B is at three then someone unvotes A, A would be on the chopping block. If A and B are at 2 and someone votes A then someone votes B, A would be on the chopping block.

I'm only bringing this up because I thought I'd explained that in the setup thread before game start, but apparently I hadn't. If you were aware of this but chose to implement plurality the other way that is also fine, I just like being informative.

[Bingle]

FWIW, I think this entire discussion about the "Vote RM/Ana over Llama" thing is fully NAI. Llama is objectively right, but that doesn't mean he's town or scum for it. I thought TBone was scummy for trying to make the focus about it, right up until Kerset agreed with him and I realized that maybe other people don't see this kind of situation as so easily solved as I do.

My biggest concern with Llama's play is the lack of anything else today. The refusal to attempt to solve in the lovers to give information was sketchy. The Day 1 push for VV that led to me shifting that wagon onto VV when I got cold feet I felt was town. Bambi today is a mild townread by gut, but I was pretty hypertunneled on TBone at that point so I thought it was mechanically Bambi due to pairing with LF. I'm back to a 50/50 in LF/Bambi and my answer is: I'm gonna sheep the conftown.

[Bingle]

That post got away from me a bit. I thought it was mechanically Bambi since TBone couldn't be paired with LF is what the second to last sentence should have ended with.

[Bingle]

How can Bingle justify this vote actually?

Because Kerset is sure and instead of having a pissing match about who is right I decided to trust in the person who is to me conftown. Reads are the weakest area of my town game, and I can admit that.

More importantly, and this is hilarious: My alignment is now irrelevant to the game. I have put the game in a position where either we win the VT 50/50 or we lose. You and I? We can't endgame, because TBone is conftown. If I was scum here, I just threw away any chance I had of winning the lover pool to not meaningfully impact the 1v1 in the VT pool. ScumMe could have instead waited until deadline and hoped to quietly quickhammer the person who wasn't my buddy, but I didn't do that.

[Bingle]

Not exactly. If you believed that VFP would hammer Llama, it was indeed a worthwhile gamble and you had the fallback where the dynamic of me, ana and Llama vs you, Kerset and Bambi is just forced.

Don't for a second pretend you didn't consider VFP hammering Llama as viable, it is the entire reason it was worth for you to do as Scum. You're painting a picture of 'fruitless risk' from scum POV but the fruit was VFP hammering Llama. I happened to be offline, not posting here at all and Ana barely posts at all, so you and Kerset saw a perfect opportunity where you felt we couldn't fight back and hoped VFP would take the bait.

Why isn't Me/Kerset/Llama a possibility from your perspective?

[Bingle]

I suspect scum Bingle would play to T-Bone over me expecting me to just follow T-Bone given day 1.

I can outright tell you that scum Bingle would have hedged his bets and kept the mechanically superior capability of winning through the lover pool.

[Bingle]

Nice slip.

Are you arguing that me not trying to solve myself makes me scum? I can't even.

[Bingle]

Yet, he didn't. Perhaps because he thought of the mechanical benefit of instantly winning with Llama elim via VFP hammer.

Or, given that VFP has played cautiously today and a qh instead of a confirmation would have been a major departure from that, perhaps because scumBingle isn't in this game. But yes, continue pushing the narrative you need instead of letting VFP look at the actual events that took place and make his decisions.

[Bingle]

VFP, prove yourself conftown or win the game please.

Look at how I clearly think VFP town is going to hammer when I ask him to confirm himself as town in the post where I admit I'm not sure about the 1v1. It's so spicy. It's almost as spicy as when I argued that Llama was right about limming you being optimal or unvoted as soon as I saw that VFP had posted because I was clearly pinning all of my hopes on VFP just saying fuck it and winning me the game, while continuing to point out that mechanically limming you was better than limming LF.

[Bingle]

I never once opposed Llama saying it was now me and Ana vs Bambi, not once.

I vaguely remember you doing so before you understood the argument, but also that is NAI. I also would not have opposed the logic from your position. It just means you understood the logic and are the type of player who relies on mechanical advantages more than subjective ones.

FWIW, RM, I do think you played a good game here and would be happy to play with you again. I just know that you're scum now mechanically and thus nothing you say is going to really matter to me.

[Bingle]

That... Is that giving up or is my scumread on him making me misinterpret the above post?

8 hours until doomsday and Llama hasn't showed up today either. I dunno what that's about.

Nah, that's NAI bitching about an inactive partner. That's the problem with mechanical 1v1s. Once the motivation is GET TARGET LIMMED, pretty much nothing they do is actually AI.

[Bingle]

panic move the wagon to SS

I mean... That was me. You were pretty consistently pushing SS all day afaicr and I got cold feet on deciding lovers and jumped ship, which caused you to put your money where your mouth was and everything snowballed from there.

VC 1.30

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (3)

- Bingle, RationalMadman, Anastasia

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting - LlamaFluff

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

VC 1.31

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- RationalMadman, Anastasia

Something_Smart (2)

- Bingle, LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting -

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

[Bingle]

panic move the wagon to SS

I mean... That was me. You were pretty consistently pushing SS all day afaicr and I got cold feet on deciding lovers and jumped ship, which caused you to put your money where your mouth was and everything snowballed from there.

VC 1.30

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (3)

- Bingle, RationalMadman, Anastasia

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting - LlamaFluff

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

VC 1.31

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- RationalMadman, Anastasia

Something_Smart (2)

- Bingle, LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting -

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

For clarity: Llama was voting Ana prior to 1.30 and unvoted. It looked like Kerset was going to join me on TBone. (Kerset had just asked the mod if I could move their vote and was told no.)

The shift Llama caused was from Ana -> Tbone. The shift I caused was from TBone -> SS.

[Bingle]

So, this is gonna sound strange, but I think we should eliminate TBone. I ain't never gotten to mislim TBone before.

We can totally decide the 1v1 first, but... funsies?

[Bingle]

Oh, also, thanks for carrying me Kerset.

[Bingle]

Completely unrelated to the game and aimed at the mod, but:

@Mod: since Llama surpassed me in votes for a bit but we're tied again, is he set to die in plurality or is it me since I was at 3 first? That seems like important information to have rn.

In case of ties, the player who reached the most votes

first

will be eliminated

I just noticed this (and it's in the rules so it's how plurality should work in this game) but this is actually not the standard implementation of plurality.

Standard is most recently highest:

If A is at four and B is at three then someone unvotes A, A would be on the chopping block.

If A and B are at 2 and someone votes A then someone votes B, A would be on the chopping block.

I'm only bringing this up because I thought I'd explained that in the setup thread before game start, but apparently I hadn't. If you were aware of this but chose to implement plurality the other way that is also fine, I just like being informative.

I'm a little confused by your example I underlined.

A got to 3 first, then B got to 3. Using my rule, A is limmed (most votes

first

). Using most recently highest, B should be limmed as B's 4 votes is more "recent" than A's 4 votes.

My idea was to give more agency to players voting first, and to force more interactions between players if they want to change the elimination target.

Most recently highest is you rewind time until there isn't a tie, and then lim based on who would have been highest there among your tied players (continuing the process after dropping players if there's a tie)

Your ruleset, as I understand it would allow for the following situation: A gets 4 votes out of the gate. B then gets four votes. Everyone unvotes A. A gets run up to 4 again. A would then be the lim, because A was the first person to reach 4 votes that phase.

[Bingle]

EBWOP: If there's still a tie.

[Bingle]

On a more serious note, mafia have now won both games I modded with this setup, one was the original setup which was more town sided too.

I think balance wise this setup was fine. There's definitely some apathy based on the reroll and interpersonal conflict that played into the outcome, but I think scum earned their win and town definitely had a reasonable chance of pulling it out.

[Bingle]

Why not Klick? If you got an issue with me you dodge me then. If you got an issue then report me. Don't get upset I played to win.

I mean... if he just doesn't want to play with you it's only polite to not sign up for or replace into games he's already in. It's a reasonable request.