Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[T-Bone]

Look at me and my heroic reads from game 1 wooooooooooooooooo.

Also it turns out Klick is my true love. Who knew? But...you'll always be a mason with me in my game 1 heart, Bambi

[T-Bone]

I'm gonna laugh if both the former VTs Klick and Tbone are the last lover pair and Llama got single again. Regardless of which of these 3 are paired, one of the singles stayed Single. That's sad.

What is this though????????????

[T-Bone]

also once again, lovers please surmize your entire pt for us

Google the words 'achievement goal theory'. That's what we talked about.

[T-Bone]

Feels like you're trying to ride your town cred from last game then actually be town this game tbh.

[T-Bone]

do you think i would bus a partner in this setup?

Yes. There's a decent chance it would have won Llama the game last game, despite the necessity of the reroll.

I think I would've kept Kerset safe come what may.

Nah fam I had the three of you absolutely NAILED.

[T-Bone]

Also the lovers are effectively masons, so why did I read a full page arguing this???

[T-Bone]

Kerset, honest answer time please. Why did you think you could push my miselim out of the whole playerlist last game?

[T-Bone]

I believe you.

[T-Bone]

klick, towncase T-bone for me

Wait wait wait I got this one.

Cause I'm confirmed town to Klick.

Gottem

[T-Bone]

@Ana, what do you make of the VV/me back and forth?

I read players by motivation, tone, and substance.

I don't understand your motivation to argue with him on this point.

Something I see often is scum trying to argue to be

right

instead of argue about alignment.

Because they don't have to fake being right, it's something they really believe inside.

So I tend to scum-read people who argue about things that are pointless.

The way you did it with VV, I'm not sure what either of you are trying to accomplish if you're town in that argument.

So it's possible that this is some kind of scum-theatre where you argue with him about something meaningless but with enough intensity that later we think you can't be aligned when one of you and him flips.

I'll see at the end if this intuition is right or not.

I will avoid thinking you could be scum for now because it would be painful for me to think my Kerset could be scum.

I agree with nearly everything in this post....except that I will not avoid thinking that Bingle/Kerset is the scum pair, because at this point, they are the ones I believe are scum. I'm actually also leaning VV as the goon, but I don't feel as strongly atm.

[T-Bone]

Please name and shame the 'most of people' who are avoiding reads.

[T-Bone]

Kerset and Bingle because I really think Bingle slipped saying Mason Thread and in general is being far more AtE than last game.

This ignores everything scummy about Klick and Tbone as well as that Kerset is towntelling in later posts.

The mason thing is so dumb considering nearly everyone is backing Bingle in that convo LOL

[T-Bone]

You're scumreading me for not having talked reads in the pt. You're townreading TBone for not having talked reads in the pt but for having shut down an offtopic conversation because clearly he wanted to talk about game relevant topics in the limited time he had, despite Klick's summation showing literally 0 desire on his part to, y'know, talk about reads in the PT.

I'm quoting this from Bingle because I agree with Bingle that this is literally the dumbest thing to base a read off of.

Let me clear the air, I shut down an off topic conversation cause I didn't feel like putting in the effort for another response, not because I wanted to talk game stuff. There was no game stuff to talk beyond acknowledging how right I was in game 1 (which I did).

The idea that the lovers would talk about reads pre-game is dumb because there is literally nothing to base reads on since the game hasn't started.

[T-Bone]

So if you're scumreading Bingle and townreading me based on that nonsense.... maybe you're giving a fake read, bruh.

[T-Bone]

Scum - Vex, Bambi

[T-Bone]

Kerset and Bingle because I really think Bingle slipped saying Mason Thread and in general is being far more AtE than last game.

This ignores everything scummy about Klick and Tbone as well as that Kerset is towntelling in later posts.

The mason thing is so dumb considering nearly everyone is backing Bingle in that convo LOL

Everyone backing him has no impact on something being a slip or not. If everyone thinks a flower is a bicycle and my victory chance is increased by pointing out that it's actually a flower, I will do so. If everyone still ignores what I point out and allows the 'tell' or 'slip' to become negated, I will accept that too.

I even accept that the error could be made as either alignment, however I don't like how Bingle denies it was a mistake nor has Bingle replied to me explaining why he never ever called it a mason thread before in this or last game until that point.

Because........

Its

Not

A

Mistake

[T-Bone]

The dishonesty towards Bingle is actively making him look town, and to this point, I thought his pair was the scum pair.

[T-Bone]

At a certain point though I feel it stops being a communication barrier and starts to feel intentional.

[T-Bone]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

You know it is really hard to solve lovers when Ana, T-Bone and Klick are pretty much inactive.

I had doubts but thanks for reassuring me with this post that I'm right.

[T-Bone]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

You know it is really hard to solve lovers when Ana, T-Bone and Klick are pretty much inactive.

I had doubts but thanks for reassuring me with this post that I'm right.

Who is scum in VT claims?

Leaning VV as I said the last time I posted about my reads.

[T-Bone]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

Also I feel stronger about the lover's pair at this point. My ghost vote is on Bingle/Kerset.

[T-Bone]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

This, btw, is the exact argument RM had before game 1.

It's wrong (still) but I can understand the argument.

Functionally, we have two sets of three players. one of those sets is hydrae. If the hydrae are better at reading the game they're more valuable, but that assumes the hydrae are better at reading the game. From each individual player's POV, solving in your own pool is easier, but that just means that half of the functionally 4 townies will have an easier time in either pool. It's not actually a mechanical advantage to eliminate in either pool and people should 100% just be going after their strongest scumread for the first lim. (or alternatively, their strongest scumread in a pool where they can locktown someone.)

Kerset, are we agreed that Llama is town, or am I personality biasing here?

It's only wrong if you're a VT or scum at this point.

[T-Bone]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

OOC: This Makes You A Bad Player (tm)

You cannot stand by a "strong read" on a town flipped player LOL. That it the hallmark of bad play LOL

[T-Bone]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

This, btw, is the exact argument RM had before game 1.

It's wrong (still) but I can understand the argument.

Functionally, we have two sets of three players. one of those sets is hydrae. If the hydrae are better at reading the game they're more valuable, but that assumes the hydrae are better at reading the game. From each individual player's POV, solving in your own pool is easier, but that just means that half of the functionally 4 townies will have an easier time in either pool. It's not actually a mechanical advantage to eliminate in either pool and people should 100% just be going after their strongest scumread for the first lim. (or alternatively, their strongest scumread in a pool where they can locktown someone.)

Kerset, are we agreed that Llama is town, or am I personality biasing here?

It's only wrong if you're a VT or scum at this point.

What I mean by that, as upon reading back that sounds incredibly vague and hostile.

Is that I, me, T-Bone, have a town Role PM. Therefore, I, me, T-Bone, have two shots at scum among the remaining lovers. I, me, T-Bone, am guaranteed to eliminate scum by sorting and ultimately targeting the lovers. That's where I'm at. Functionally, that's not the best thing for the VTs (because they have a similar 50-50 perspective), and it's not the best thing for the scum lover pair.

[T-Bone]

It looks like a pre-made excuse for when a scumread flips town to me, but okay if that's not what you meant, sure.

[T-Bone]

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

He already did!

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

I can vote for you if that would make you feel better?? I'm not in a rush personally, I'm trying to solve some alignments.

[T-Bone]

If you can't stand by a read that's wrong, just because it flioped the way you didn't expect, you aren't forcing yoyrself to get rewarded or punished and won't be able to improve the reasoning behind your reads.

Idk what excuse you mean. If you vote someone and they flip Town, you say what? What are you even trying to say?

You say 'my bad' and reevaluate why your read was wrong, and thus reevaluate the other reads you have.

[T-Bone]

I'm not afraid of you.

[T-Bone]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

[T-Bone]

kk miscommunication

[T-Bone]

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

See? I can vaguely shade a tactic to imply what I want too!

It's as if...people can approach the games from their own points of view. I've been very clear as to why I think what I think. I've been very clear in speaking for myself and not for the playerlist in regards to where I think the scum is, and what I want to do to achieve scum eliminations.

By contrast, I think you've been trying to manipulate the playerlist by purporting to speak for the town by trying to draw this false conclusion between what I've said on behalf of myself. I think Kerset is trying to distract from my (correct) reads by trying to use me not posting on Saturday as a way to shade me as a lurker, and by using my most recent convo with RM to distract you all from remembering that I think this is the scum pair.

Bingle is trying to say 'T-Bone only wants to look at X because he's scum' while trying to speak for the entire playerlist about 'eliminating the scummiest player'.

Well DUH. It's as-if....and here's the kicker...I think Kerset is the scummiest player in the game (and Bingle has no choice but to come to his rescue).

You pair this with Kerset and this is a concentrated effort between the two to manipulate the game, and get the pair calling them scum out. Which, you know, they have to at this point. But I think it's transparent and Kerset's #540 and Bingle's #555 are doing this! Kerset in #540 tries to tell everyone 'T-Bone isn't doing anything' and Bingle comes in with #555 'actually T-Bone is trying to protect his scum partner in the VT pool and also doing nothing'.

Honestly, I think this pair's lim solves the lovers. I've been sitting on doubts for a bit, because while I thought Kerset was transparently scum, I thought RM and VV were being really unfair to Bingle in a way that made those two appear scummier. I think #555 Bingle outed themself though as not wanting to risk us solving the Lovers, because he rightly recognizes that their pair is the one most scumread and solving the lovers is bad for them.

[T-Bone]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game threatening LlamaFluff.

You should be afraid of me to and not worry about threats to LlamaFluff or else O.O

[T-Bone]

Also the person among the VTs I think is scum is the leading wagon so let's not pretend that A: I haven't thought about the VTs at all, B: that I haven't repeatedly voiced this read and C: that there's anything else I need to do there. What do you want me to do, argue with VV over my read of them?

[T-Bone]

Llama should be afraid of me though. O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game threatening LlamaFluff.

You should be afraid of me to and not worry about threats to LlamaFluff or else O.O

@TBone, I’d like to report a player in my game trying to prevent me from reporting them for threatening LF. Checkmate

Sure. I will take all your reports and give them the longing consideration they deserve.

[T-Bone]

I think Kerset is trying to distract from my (correct) reads by trying to use me not posting on Saturday as a way to shade me as a lurker, and by using my most recent convo with RM to distract you all from remembering that I think this is the scum pair.

How does prodding your for activity 'distract' people? If you don't post and vocal your options then they may be forgotten but the fact that i ask you to be active doesn't stop you in any way.

Both you and Klick are at the bottom of post count. You are objectively the least interactive players. Today you added 13 posts, so at the time of my actions your gap was even higher.


Instead of crafting conspiracy theories just look at the data.

You grasp at silly things like activity and post count (like last game) because you don't have anything real because I am probably the most townie looking player in this game right now, I don't need 60 posts of nothing for that to be true.

May I remind people that's all Kerset had in round 1, and they were scum. Now maybe it's just the flawed way Kerset plays regardless of alignment, that I couldn't speak to. I only have this game as the data point. In my experience people who draw scum tend to lean on NAI things like activity because it's hard to fake reads. I see it, again in my personal experience, come from scum way more often than town (usually if it comes from town, it comes from a newer player or a player from a site like ToS).

[T-Bone]

Also the person among the VTs I think is scum is the leading wagon so let's not pretend that A: I haven't thought about the VTs at all, B: that I haven't repeatedly voiced this read and C: that there's anything else I need to do there. What do you want me to do, argue with VV over my read of them?

Could you link examples for B and explain why you have the read you have?

Kerset did the leg work for me as to when I first voiced it. If you're looking for a wall post, keep looking, I try not to post like that unless I feel really strongly. I don't, and I've admitted it several times, just like I have voiced this read several times. My issue that I was highlighting in post 563 was the insinuation that I either didn't have any reads on the VTs, or hiding them. Something demonstrably false just by looking at literally every post I am asked to say what I think of the VTs.

For the read itself, it's gut. Vex doesn't feel the same way they did last game. Whereas I absolutely townread Bambi, and Llama also doesn't feel the same to me as last game. If all my reads are correct, then Vex is the solve based on that. Do I know for sure? No, but that's where I'm at.

[T-Bone]

VC

Nah bruh my pagetop now.

[T-Bone]

I'll say this now and pick up later,

If the vote on Bambi doesn't gain momentum, I am open to voting either pair and I do mean either. So, if you are all planning to vote Vex especially, I am going to resist it.

Vex has been Towntelling by activity and tendency to tunnel. However, if Vex's refusal to vote Bambi is what results in their downfall, then frankly I don't care.

I am very sure Bambi is the Goon, the lover pair I slightly suspect is Klick and Tbone but I genuinely can't tell. Bingle was asking much better questions and arguing farore ferocious last game as a Town Lover. This game he's still trying I guess but he seems to generically be thrpwong shade here and there (such as on Tbone) while randomly townreading someone like Bambi for something I don't understand how it's Towny. O actually am confused what Bingle explained he townreads Bambi for, is it the Klick vote? I read his explanation and didn't quite understand.

I townread Bambi so I don't think there's enough votes left to eliminate her unless you can convince one of the VTs to go with you and Kerset/Bingle...and the problem is if this is a world in which you are town, they will not go along with you to make the correct choice if Bambi happens to be the correct choice.

So knowing all that, what are you gonna do about it?

[T-Bone]

I am probably the most townie looking player in this game right now

No you are absolutely not.

It is absolutely me though. I exude town from my very core.

[T-Bone]

That seems like a you problem, not a me problem. You're not going to convince me that I'm scum.

[T-Bone]

Because I am using this example to demonstrate my read on you. Whether I am right or wrong, I have something that you did last game as scum and you're doing it again!

So first off, I'm not trying to convince you of your alignment, I'm trying to convince everyone else!

And what should town!tbone think when you, as scum, did something last game, and crucially

are doing the same thing again?

What should I think from your perspective, knowing these things?

[T-Bone]

Like if you're gonna blame me for your tactics and your reads then I cannot help you. You're the one doing the scummy thing, it's not my fault you're doing it.

[T-Bone]

And when I asked you, why you tried to use this tactic on me yesterday to help me understand why you are using the same tactic today. Bingle empty quoted the question with a snarky smiley, and you gave a snarky answer.

So I ask you again. What am I suppose to do, if you are using the same tactic you used as scum in game 1, and cannot explain why you are still doing it in game 2?

[T-Bone]

Because I tried to solve this and what it means for your alignment DAYS AGO and you and your partner both quoted the question and Bingle gave me snark, and you gave me a non-answer that doesn't explain your motive at all.

So...you're failing at 'ability to make others recognize you as town' based on that alone.

Vote: Kerset

The solve, in real time, as Kerset STILL cannot explain why they are using the same scum tactic two games in a row.

[T-Bone]

And what should town!tbone think when you, as scum, did something last game, and crucially are doing the same thing again? What should I think from your perspective, knowing these things?

You can OMGUS at me if it makes you feel better but i am glad to finally see you phasing your thoughts.

Why can't you answer any of my questions?

[T-Bone]

Please note everybody else.... that Kerset asks a lot of questions, and I answer them. I ask Kerset questions, and they can't answer a single one.

[T-Bone]

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

[T-Bone]

Bingle empty quoted the question with a snarky smiley, and you gave a snarky answer.

As best I can tell the only snark I have recently is a joke post about you threatening llama. What have I failed to answer?

It wasn't your question to answer. I was just pointing out what you did when I asked Kerset why he chose me for his fake read in Game 1 when he used my activity as a basis for the read.

Something Kerset is doing this game.

I'll ask you since Kerset refuses. When Kerset is repeating something they did as scum from the previous game, what am I supposed to think?

[T-Bone]

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

Scumread. While Ana is pretty okay, RM is not. If it weren't for lovers I'd probably rank scum to town as Kerset>RM>Bingle>Ana honestly.

[T-Bone]

Bambi made a joke about it being funny if Klick and TBone were the last lover pair, before Klick and TBone outed as lovers. I thought ScumBambi would 100% know that they were for some reason, which was wrong in hindsight. (Bambi would only know Klick and Tbone were the last lover pair in advance with an exact Klick/Tbone/Bambi team) and thought it unlikely that Bambi would make a joke that risked being taken as TMI as scum when scum would be hyper aware of things like that, so I sought second opinions.

My original vote on Tbone, which is still there right now, was because he called out the Bambi post as weird but didn’t follow through on any questioning, although I didn’t explain that until right now.

I thought it was weird for the same reason you think so, and that's why I pointed it out....but decided ultimately, it was a coincidence and not worth persuing.

[T-Bone]

@tbone - how exactly do i feel different this game? i said my normal start got ruined by the reroll so i’m mostly just playing as korina with a different typing style.

I understand where you're coming from. A lot of what I felt made you town in game 1 was the actively trying to figure things out, and that was bolstered by the advanced planning you did around the mechanics of the set-up.

I don't get the same feeling from your posts now. It could be that you're just now more passive because you no longer have a plan to execute. But there's no denying the tone and tenor of your posts from game 1 to game 2 are different significantly. Llama feels different too, and because he was scum last time and now feels different I'm unsure whether he's able to change his tenor reliably or if its because he honestly has a different alignment now. And I read Bambi as town.

That doesn't mean I can't be convinced Llama still rolled scum, or that I'm completely wrong on Bambi. In dependent of lovers and going back to my list from above I'd put you equal with Bingle, honestly (which would make you not a scumread without the mechanics of the set-up). Hence why despite you leading the vote for most of the day, I didn't join in. If I joined in, that probably means Klick joins in because he knows I'm town-aligned, meaning I could have put you at L-1 if you were my strongest scumread. (please note I'm not trying to claim agency over Klick, but I think we are pretty lock step in our reads atm).

[T-Bone]

???

I was confused when you brought that up. At that point the other 2 lover pairs brought up their pairings already, I noticed that the last two lover pairs last game swapped partners while me and Vex both became single. I thought it would've been funnier if the last town singles became the new couple while this game. I like tk picture me and Vex breaking up respectfully while Ana and Kerset was separated by the mod so their love couldn't prosper.

It also brings up the prospect that Llama is forever alone so that's nice.

I mean quite simply if you were scum you'd know the exact role distribution of the game by the time Klick, Llama, and I were left to claim. But I decided that it was coincidence and didn't press further.

[T-Bone]

I don't get the same feeling from your posts now. It could be that you're just now more passive because you no longer have a plan to execute. But there's no denying the tone and tenor of your posts from game 1 to game 2 are different significantly.

You just told me you townread Bambi a few posts ago.

Okay? Voice your entire conclusion please.

[T-Bone]

Tbone has even begun to say odd things (like not @'ing Vex when asking vanilla claims to join him voting Kerset as well as saying he Townreads Bambi only to now say her vibe is totally different to last game while Llama's is too, which implies he should townread Llama the most out of VTs and scum-lean Bambi).

Do you stand by this observation?

[T-Bone]

So to be clear, your contention is that in #614 and #616 is that I flipflopped on Bambi, with the quote you pulled from my 609. Yes or no?

[T-Bone]

In #609, the post I qouted was from Vex, responding to Vex, about my read on Vex, and the quote you pulled was about Vex.

So...are you giving a fake read to justify your vote?

[T-Bone]

I mean quite simply if you were scum you'd know the exact role distribution of the game by the time Klick, Llama, and I were left to claim.

Actually untrue in hindsight if you're town, but I had literally the same thought process.

If Bambiscum/youtown, Bambi doesn't know which one of you/Klick/Llama is the VT and which is a lover. Bambi had the TMI specifically in the case that the team is you/Klick/Bambi.

But yeah, people (VV and Kers) told me I was tinfoiling the townread, so :shrug:.

Oh I see what you're saying. Makes total sense from a not-me perspective.

[T-Bone]

In #609, the post I qouted was from Vex, responding to Vex, about my read on Vex, and the quote you pulled was about Vex.

So...are you giving a fake read to justify your vote?

So I guess to everyone else. From my perspective it looks like RM is trying to work backwards from his vote/read to justify it. I gave RM several chances to fact check his read.

Am I wrong for thinking this feels fake? That this feels like scum working backwards from a fakeread and trying to find something to justify it?

[T-Bone]

I appreciate you not doubling down for what its worth, would have just been a huge argument.

As to why I haven't pushed Bambi...its because I do honestly read her as town as she hasn't done anything that has made me question it.

As I just demonstrated with you...I will question things that catch my attention. You have over 100 posts and I have responded to maybe 6 of them? So if your barometer is 'player X isn't questioning player Y' up until the last page you fell in the category of someone I wasn't questioning.

[T-Bone]

I don't understand why you are not pushing on Bambi at all though and vice versa. In fact, Bambi hasn't pushed on any player with a good reason so far, especially when she pushed on me.

As for this...you're a bit biased. Bambi has pushed on people, you just don't agree. Which is fine, but understand that when you say this, I don't see it that way.

[T-Bone]

To be clear, RM, as a player I am hyper focused on me, so its not an accident I interact the most with people who question me/scumread me/etc more than the ones who don't.

And honest assessment, you might be the same way, hence feeling that Bambi's read and push on you isn't legitimate and so you've voiced it as such.

[T-Bone]

Even if I am voted here for that, I want to say that Vex's vibe is

not

totally different to last game. Vex was extremely defensive, hostile and tunneling in the early part of this Day Phase. The only thing that's different is that since then, Vex seems more apathetic. That doesn't make sense to me as an accurate read and I believe that Tbone and Klick are the scum.

If Tbone thinks

Vex

is Scum of the Vanillas, does he read the situation of Vex vs Bingle as a bussing drama?

I'd only vote you for the mistake if you had continued to double and triple down.

If I vote you, it won't be for this.

As for Vex, I disagree with your assessment. That's just what it is.

[T-Bone]

I'll ask you since Kerset refuses. When Kerset is repeating something they did as scum from the previous game, what am I supposed to think?

Why is Kerset trying to provoke additional content to help read people? I feel like that is pretty self explanatory. I also feel like thinking Klick/Bambi/VV/Ana are light on content is still reasonable and that thinking you were light on content when you two started this whole back and forth was reasonable.

Looking at the other thread, I also don't think Kerset is super similar, but I'm pretty biased in that I know there was an alignment change there.

I don't need you to give a read on Kerset, you know either way.

I didn't mean to say that I need you to answer for Kerset's play. Like regardless of alignment you know the truth.

I'm explaining what I'm seeing from my perspective cause that's the one I have and I try in general to be open about what I see. And as I explained before I see Kerset picking on activity again, something that scum!Kerset did last game. And I was trying to gauge whether this is something that Kerset does as scum, or is NAI. And from Kerset I didn't get an answer to that gauge.

And so I'm explaining why I think the way I think. And so I partly ask this as a rhetorical device...if I, me, T-Bone am seeing something I can provably associate something as a thing a player did while scum, what reasons are there for me to think this time is different? If scum!Kerset did X in game 1, and Kerset is still doing X in game 2, what evidence in game 2 should I be seeing that makes it NAI instead of scum?

[T-Bone]

I'm not asking you to answer for him. But if you two are actually the other town pair Bingle, then it's important to me that you understand where I'm coming from, because if I am wrong (which is your contention), then I can't begin to correct my read without some mutual understanding.

[T-Bone]

Vex was extremely defensive, hostile and tunneling in the early part of this Day Phase.
The only thing that's different is that since then, Vex seems more apathetic.

If Tbone thinks

Vex

is Scum of the Vanillas, does he read the situation of Vex vs Bingle as a bussing drama?

As for Vex, I disagree with your assessment. That's just what it is.

Do you disagree to the lines I said or the first sentence's claim that their vibe isn't totally different?

If you agree to what I said but not to the vibe, why?

Also, please answer the bussing question. I don't think Bingle would have reacted as strongly as he did if it was just for a bus, I genuinely believe scum-Bingle = town-Vex, obviously both can be Town and scum-Vex can be present with town-Bingle, what is the team in your conclusion? At the moment I believe your stated read is Bingle/Kerset-pair + Vex

Also, if you do consider me scummier than Bingle, what makes your scumread on Kerset stronger? In the hypothetical that I am scum, who is my Goon out of the Vanilla claims and why?

I want to understand your thinking.

I don't agree with you saying you think Vex reads the same as the first game. When I responded to Vex in 609, I outlined why I thought Vex was different.

So the rub is, you think Vex is playing the same way and that's why you think they are town. I think they are playing differently, and that could indicate an alignment shift, and I said as much.

For Vex vs. Bingle, Bingle is voting me, no one else besides Vex is voting Bingle. At best this is null because Bingle isn't being voted. I think what Vex does with Kerset will be telling, because if that pair gets eliminated today, it will be via Kerset, not Bingle. So Bingle is a safe vote if they are scum together. So it doesn't do much for me because they've A) not been tested and B) no one has been flipped.

For you vs Bingle I'm just giving my honest assessment individually. People are not scum with every post they make, most posts are NAI. Sorry man, I'm not willing to accept you're too scummy to be scum like several people have. I think you're smart enough, if you did draw scum, to try and play up the way you acted the first game in order to get those town reads. Am I wrong in thinking you are capable of this?

[T-Bone]

I don't need you to give a read on Kerset, you know either way.

I didn't mean to say that I need you to answer for Kerset's play. Like regardless of alignment you know the truth.

I'm explaining what I'm seeing from my perspective cause that's the one I have and I try in general to be open about what I see. And as I explained before I see Kerset picking on activity again, something that scum!Kerset did last game. And I was trying to gauge whether this is something that Kerset does as scum, or is NAI. And from Kerset I didn't get an answer to that gauge.

And so I'm explaining why I think the way I think. And so I partly ask this as a rhetorical device...if I, me, T-Bone am seeing something I can provably associate something as a thing a player did while scum, what reasons are there for me to think this time is different? If scum!Kerset did X in game 1, and Kerset is still doing X in game 2, what evidence in game 2 should I be seeing that makes it NAI instead of scum?

I'm not asking you to answer for him. But if you two are actually the other town pair Bingle, then it's important to me that you understand where I'm coming from, because if I am wrong (which is your contention), then I can't begin to correct my read without some mutual understanding.

OMG AFTER LITANY OF 'WHY KERSET DOESNT ASNWER ME ;_; :_;" ONCE BINGLE ANSWERS FOR ME YOU RELPY WITH "I DONT WANT ANSWERS, I ONLY SHOW MY THOUGHTS"

Nothing is stopping you from answering my questions if you're town. You could, at any time, just answer them. Weren't you the one lecturing me on how it's a townie's job to be easily read and accepted as town? You'd think that you'd try to get me to sort you as town, like Bingle is trying to do if that were the case.

The fact is, the 7 other players in the game can plainly see I'm putting in the effort and you're not.

[T-Bone]

That is how math works, yes.

[T-Bone]

New partner in the future I am excited to meet you!

[T-Bone]

I'm a little bit shocked how hard everyone is leaning into <single game meta reads, tbh. Like, the narrative of RM is locktown because he was aggressive and I was wrong last game and he's aggressive this game is nonsense fmpov, and doesn't sound like town reasoning. At most the conclusion should be "I'm going to have difficulty reading RM" because there is absolutely nothing to compare town RM to to confirm he wouldn't be aggressive as scum. (Hard bet that he would.) The narrative of "Kerset is scum because they're poking people for additional content" is bad when there's a clear town motivation behind that action. VV asserting both that they should be able to read Bambi but can't and that they don't have an issue with that is troubling, to say the least, and Llama poking there is easily the towniest thing in the thread.

TBone ignoring my requests to respond to get him to talk about

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

Hm. Expand on this for me.

is immensely frustrating to me, because I thought it might have been a town perspective slip and I don't know why town doesn't expand on it if it's something he truly believed, even if he then realized he was ass backwards. At this point, he's had enough time to look at it that I can't even trust the slip if it was one, so I might as well out it for people to talk about and hopefully get some kind of life into this game.

And by coincidence from a scum lover PoV focusing on the VTs first is preferable. Your repeated "I only want to look at the VT pool" feels like an attempt to not put yourself in the spot where you need to survive two 1v1s with RM/Ana and then Klick/me, respectively.

This is actually untrue. From a scum PoV, both pools are equally viable. The 50/50 solve thing actually only applies from the town POV and specifically the town POV where they prioritize their own reads over the reads of the thread. Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I too, am frustrated by several players. So while I emphasize, it doesn't move me that much.

I explained Kerset. What you see as 'poking people for content' I see as blatantly hiding behind NAI things to pretend to game solve. That's what I see. Your manipulative language is noted, since he's not addressing my concern (and I think you know he can't), you're trying to make everyone else think we are discussing something we're not. We're not discussing 'Kerset poking for content'. We are discussing my observation that he's doing the exact same thing two games in a row. Either have him explain it, or disagree with me, but don't try to manipulate everyone else into thinking we're having a discussion we're not so you can call me scum for not addressing something that I didn't say.

The quote you so lovingly quoted twice was rhetorical by me to point out how flawed the statement I was reacting to when I typed that.

[T-Bone]

Like disagree with me if you want. But stop trying to frame what I'm saying as something else.

If you want to talk about what I said, use what I said. I said Kerset is picking on activity in this game, like he did last game, because he can't sincerely scum hunt. If you want to talk to me about THIS claim, talk to me using my words. Don't say "oh T-Bone is calling Kerset scum for poking people for additional content", because that's not what I'm saying, that's not what I think he's doing and the fact that you keep repeating it is dishonest, and I want everyone to see this.

[T-Bone]

To be clear, I'd understand why you'd approach me in a dishonest way as town given the game state and your current read, but you're doing neither of us a favor in a world where you are the other town pair if that's the case. Even if you think I'm scum atm, have an honest conversation with me anyway as if you thought I might be the other town pair and maybe we can communicate better. I dunno.

[T-Bone]

VFP we are confirmed town to each other that's how the set up works.

I'd actually appreciate if you didn't try to eliminate my strongest town read, thanks. That being Bambi.

[T-Bone]

You can vote Kerset and were voting for them up until you changed your vote lol

Catch up on the game, and then talk to me when you have so we can compare notes. I don't want to influence you too much, but I had to intervene to not put Bambi in lim territory.

Also to pre-empt anyone empty quoting this to go "but you just influenced them to not vote Bambi" suck it.

[T-Bone]

FWIW I don’t see a difference between “pushing people for activity and pushing people to make content that isn’t semantics. I also think you’re think you’re entirely missing my point either willfully or not.

I also feel like I very clearly have been willing to consider the case where you’re town, considering the 1/3 of that post talking about what I think might be a perspective slip.

I guess the tldr though is this:

You’ve argued that Kerset did this as scum. I’m asking why Kerset wouldn’t do this as town. Given that I know Kerset is town, you aren’t going to convince me, but hearing your reasoning might help me in reading you.

Bruh. Why can't you have an honest conversation with me? I just laid out in plain language how I view Kerset, and you did it again in this post.

I'm not trying to convince you of Kerset's alignment. I'm telling you what I'm seeing, and what I'm calling it, and here, again, you call it something else in a misleading way. It doesn't even feel like you're trying. And it doesn't look like to me that Kerset is trying, since Kerset just dropped all pretenses and straight up tricked VFP into doing something. So like, I'm not going to keep arguing with you. If you're town your job is honestly to convince me that Ana/RM are the scum pair.

And trust me, RM is trying his damnest to convince everyone he's the scum pair...so I don't even get why you continue to do this unless you're the scum pair.

[T-Bone]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

Are you not following along with the game?

(I can and I will, but considering Kerset was the leading wagon and I was the counter wagon at the time you made the post I'm not sure why you don't have a better handle on this)

[T-Bone]

Furthermore, the reads Tbone has in the vanillas seem fabricated to me. How can Tbone townread Bambi? How can Tbone say Vex is totally different to last game? I never got follow-up on this despite asking him several times.

Wow this is so dishonest. I explained both those things, and once again you disagreeing doesn't make it true. This is either the second or third time I've called you out on this. To justify all your reads you question the integrity of the player rather than their actions. You say Bambi has done nothing, I disagree. You say Vex isn't different from last game, I disagree.

Disagree with me if you want. Stop lying to justify your shitty scumread on me. Get a clue.

I'm glad you decided to put this in it's own post, so I didn't have to drag it out of the nonsense that was 695.

"How can T-Bone have different reads than me?" get the heck out of here with that nonsense. How condescending can you be with the worst scumread in this game? You don't get to be condescending when your top scumread is wrong dude.

[T-Bone]

Just to kind of put a bow on things real quick because I've called both Bingle and RM dishonest and both can't be scum.

I actually understand why Bingle would do it as both alignments. If Bingle is town, nothing Kerset can do is scummy from Bingle's perspective, and despite my disagreement I can't argue with that. (and of course as scum trying to survive)

But...I can't explain why RM is making dishonest arguments. His arguments are getting into more than just having a different read for me. I understand people having different reads for different reasons. I don't understand this nonsense. Unless you think tunneling is the explanation?

[T-Bone]

Are you in one of your tunneling moments, Radiant?

I was literally asked by another player to give reasoning behind my vote and my username isn't fucking Radiant.

Well one, was the curse necessary? If anything we're the ones that wanna curse from YOUR actions and you use it against someone who literally just joined.

Second: you tell him Tbone. Maybe it takes 5 people speaking before he realizes he's doing something wrong.

Is it from a scummy mindset or is it literally who Ration is as a person tho? That's my hesitation. Mainly because when I vote him now it ain't for strategy it's just because of everyone he's not my favorite person atm.

I mean it's certainly possible RM is being obtuse because people are townreading him for it and he's self aware enough to play that up.

It's also possible he just thinks so highly of himself he'll twist everything he reads to fit what he's doing. Like, people do that. I can be guilty of it too.

I can see it both ways...which is not super helpful and I think you're grasping with the same issue. (In fact I grapple with this with Bingle too!)

[T-Bone]

I got you. I will follow up when I get a true free moment to do so.

[T-Bone]

I'm telling you what I'm seeing, and what I'm calling it, and here, again, you call it something else in a misleading way. It doesn't even feel like you're trying.

3 people are trying to explain to you that you are misleading my intentions and you refuse to listen but bingle is the one which is not trying understand...

I mean all I wanted from you was an explanation as to why you are doing something that not only have I observed from other scum across the site, but specifically from scum!Kerset. Bingle keeps trying tell everyone else 'T-Bone is asking why Kerset is trying to game solve'...which is not what I said.

And regardless of you know, whether you are town or scum, complaining about someone's post count, or being absent for a day, is not 'trying to game solve'.

But I mean we're beyond the point here where either of us can do anything about it. Nevermind the specific thing I'm picking on, I don't think Bingle's assertion that any of your posts are attempting to game solve, nevertheless the ones where you complain about post counts and activity levels, are you honestly trying to game solve. It just doesn't look that way to me, despite Bingle's heroic efforts to cover for you.

[T-Bone]

So ironically thinking the worst of his personality might make him townie. That's ultra meta.

Yeh no matter what I feel like I would've gotten him elimed last game too like this. And that was with Bingle holding him back. Ana is MUCH more passive so he has free rein of that pair.

The unfortunate news here Tbone is I guess if both the other lover pairs think your the evil party you gotta rely on all 3 VTs instead. Or maybe convince Ana to see reason. Because I trust you and now VFP by proxy, and if you think it's Bingle/Kerset then they win if you die cuz Ration sure as heck won't beat them in a 2v1.

We can go back to the VTs first instead but that'll just end with Ration tunneling me again and if he's the town pair it's GG. So yeh.

Maybe get rid of Ration for the variable since that seems the safest? Then it's you and VFP against Kerset and Bingle and you can convince the other VT your right. Best case scenario Ration is the evil guy. Worst case we get a fighting chance.

Yeah, well, gonna let VFP catch up and we'll go from there. I can't help that one of the town lover pairs is scumreading me at the moment. Either way we're playing two games of 2v1, we essentially need all the town players to find each other and agree regardless of which pool we eliminate in, and right now that's not happening. There's no incentive for scum to bus in this set-up. Just as I refuse to eliminate you and vise versa, scum can do the same under the guise of mutual town reads (which is what some of them are thinking between us, and rightly so). I'm hoping that VFP finds something I haven't considered.

[T-Bone]

Because I'm town, and if Bingle/Kerset are town, then the only choice left for scum is Ana/RM. The idea that I need to entertain the notion that I'm scum is nonsense.

[T-Bone]

Sorry Ana I looked at your very private conversation.

[T-Bone]

Because I'm town, and if Bingle/Kerset are town, then the only choice left for scum is Ana/RM. The idea that I need to entertain the notion that I'm scum is nonsense.

Only choice to you or to Bingle?
How can Bingle know if he is Town?

Yoyr logic doesn't make any sense. Bingle is not responsible for your lover pair or vice versa.

I feel it is safe to assume that Bingle has read his Role PM and knows his own alignment.

[T-Bone]

So scum is just Kerset, Bingle, and Vex

VOTE: Kerset

Is this what you came to upon reading?

[T-Bone]

How can Bingle know if he is Town?

Sorry, i did miss a comma. I meant to say: How can Bingle know, if he is town?

Can you repost with what you were trying to communicate here so I can respond?

[T-Bone]

I like you! Just not more than a friend and not as a fellow townie...

[T-Bone]

Caught me red handed.

But before you declare it a scum slip for sure.

I want you to look deep into the eyes of my avatar.

[T-Bone]

I saw that Llama was fishing for a scumslip and rather than pointing it out I let it happen cause we're not scum. yw Llama.

[T-Bone]

Leaves Kerset who goes right to talking about scum topics, and actually is somewhat wrong too. Last game scum didnt get a topic, at least not out the gate. They had to ask for one and improvise in the main scum topic because they never got one in a reasonable amount of time. Which is why I think saying that "scum got a PT" is a bit of an odd statement, as last game they *didnt* until it was requested. Making the assumption that they have one this time feels like scum who knows that either now they were given one, or it was requested. The "playing with too much information" thing from last time, especially as if its worthless to talk about PT stuff... why wasnt Kerset complaining about it out the gate during the first few pages.

I think you're 100% wrong for the reasons Kerset mentioned though.

[T-Bone]

Actually the conclusions you draw in 814 about RM and Kerset are super odd as I feel the opposite conclusions are more logical.

[T-Bone]

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

Weren't you the one asking for a deadline extension...? And you decide to vote for the pair not one of the leading wagons after avoiding this literally all day? What?

[T-Bone]

I can’t shake the feeling here that TBone is trying to get me to legitimize his Kerset push.

Objectively, it is true that scumKerset pushed people based on inactivity in the last game. Objectively, it is true that Kerset pushed people based on inactivity this game. The issue with TBone’s conclusion is that in both cases, pushes based on activity we’re warranted.

There’s this sort of unspoken presumption that townKerset couldn’t push people based on inactivity this game, and every time I’ve pointed it out it feels like there’s been a sort of handwaive of that whole concept. I’m having trouble believing that Tbone is that ridiculously bad at utilizing meta. (Single source, complete dismissal of the concept of NAI behaviors)

I’ve tried to get answers to this, but as I see it TBones argument is that Kerset as town could only sit there helplessly in the face of inactivity and NAI bullshit as opposed to pushing people based on inactivity. I also feel like every time I’ve attempted to reach out to solve TBone I’ve been brushed off and chastised for not being willing to try to solve TBone.

I’d like other people to look at our interactions and see if they see the same thing.

Uhhh bruh you brush me off. Don't even try to play the 'T-Bone isn't working with me whaaaa' when literally that's what I've been doing this entire day phase. Even though yes Kerset is scummy, nonetheless I've been working you (and to a much lesser extent Kerset) to help my understanding of the game, and I often got dishonesty in response...which you've just done again in this post.

So I don't think you get to complain that 'T-Bone brushed me off' when you can't speak with me or about me in an honest way.

[T-Bone]

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

We are also currently the defacto plurality lim. Given that if nothing changes we die, asking people to commit to a stance on us seems common sense.

And thats why I want the VV/SS slot dead. Both other VT pool slots are voting there, and that just feel wrong because neither of them are actually doing anything that looks like a bus.

Lets try this

Vote Ana

They are just bantering... which is essentially all they did in the mafia topic last time. Plus I dont think this is a lover pair bus because neither one seems to be jockying to get any sort of credit, and im not sure why TBone scum is trying to poke holes in me pressuring Kerset.

Do people actually buy meta now or something? VT meta in an open is going to be different than town PR meta in a closed vs pretty much everything else. There are so many things that go into why someone is acting like they do beyond alignment. Meta is just a baseline skill/theory thing, know how good someone is so if they are going out of their way to do something detrimental that can become a tell instead of just a "bad player" thing. Beyond that its next to worthless.

This I don't understand because functionally if we hit deadline Kerset/Bingle are eliminated. So are you implicitly townreading VFP/T-Bone??

[T-Bone]

I don't have a problem with the Ana vote necessarily since I know one of those pairs are scum in a way you don't. It wasn't clear to me what your reads were so thanks for clearing that up.

But I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page that without more votes, a vote for Ana/RM by Llama is functionally a vote for Kerset/Bingle in the current game state. So regardless of who flips what we have that interaction in mind when it is time to deal with the VT pool.

[T-Bone]

Uhhh bruh you brush me off. Don't even try to play the 'T-Bone isn't working with me whaaaa' when literally that's what I've been doing this entire day phase. Even though yes Kerset is scummy, nonetheless I've been working you (and to a much lesser extent Kerset) to help my understanding of the game, and I often got dishonesty in response...which you've just done again in this post.

Yeah... see here’s the rub. You keep saying this. I keep looking back and not seeing it. This leaves me with two possibilities. I’m entirely misreading things or my impressions are right. I asked SS for an opinion trying not to color his analysis, but we’re running out of time and as things stand I’m about to die and be proven town.

FMPOV town you absolutely wants me to get external opinions to look at the interactions because town you thinks you come across as good in them.

SS notwithstanding since he replaced in, none of the VTs hold this opinion so I think I'm doing a pretty good job at looking town so far?

But like you continue to say some version of "T-Bone is scumreading Kerset for trying to game solve" and that's patently not true. And that, to me, is dishonest, and why I keep saying as such. You don't attempt to see it from my point of view, you just preach to the rest of the players and try to imply I'm doing something I'm not.

So I feel like if you're actually town, yeah, you have an issue. Obviously scum you is gonna keep doing what you're doing without rethinking at all (which is what I feel you're doing and why I keep saying as such to everyone else).

[T-Bone]

This I don't understand because functionally if we hit deadline Kerset/Bingle are eliminated.

If i move my vote to you then we are tied, so don't be so perky.

Oh stop. And if I was the leading wagon you'd then go "oh T-Bone is just concerned with not getting eliminated'.

It's not about you, it's about Llama.

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Anastasia

So originally I was thinking about this the entire wrong dirtection.
I still think Vex is scum, but in the game mode pushing scum buddies as scum at any point is bad.

It's the same as saying that if me and T-bone are scum, then Bambi would have to be as well.

Vex had Ana and RM as set town basically while scum reading Bingle / Kerset and having me and T-Bone on the back burner.

These are the scum teams

RM / Ana / SS
Kerset / Bingle / Llama
Me / T-Bone / Bambi

RM talking about me as if he can read my meta game after 1 game I replaced into.
But it's not so much as having a meta read, but to go to the assumption that I don't make mistakes or miss things in games.

Walk me through this more love.

[T-Bone]

Sorry that came across more creepy than I intended sorry

[T-Bone]

Are you feeling confident about this VFP?

[T-Bone]

I read the ISO's Bingle suggested. Didn't help. And the discussion that's going on right now feels quite in the weeds.

I still have nothing on either of the other VT's, but it seems like that doesn't matter because I'm the consensus scummiest in them? Is that perception accurate?

One of the pairs VFP/me, Kerset/Bingle, Ana/RM is getting limmed today. So you should focus your efforts there. Your predecessor has parked their vote on Bingle all day.

[T-Bone]

Are you feeling confident about this VFP?

Very confident.
RM has basically fucked up by trying to scrabble counter arguments to me here.

This isn't RM town believing they are right, this is RM scum trying to justify why I'm scum to them.

Remember I know you're town and vise versa so we can talk. Can you actually go back to the original post I quoted from you when you voted Ana? I was interested in that train of thought, specifically where you had grouped three different solves. Now obviously there isn't any solve that involves us. So why Ana/RM/SS, and why Kerset/Bingle/Llama? (if I'm remembering that correctly)

I'm curious about two things. Why Ana/RM over Kerset/Bingle, and then why did you place the VTs where you placed them.

You've got my vote no matter what, I'm just looking to get on the same page as you to make sure we're limming the right pair today.

[T-Bone]

Okay, thanks. I remembered my slot getting called scum, but couldn't recall how many different people were saying it.

Does anyone here have meta with RM? He's obviously argumentative by nature, but I do feel like he believes his arguments here.

If it helps my order for the VTs before you replaced in was VV(you)->Llama->Bambi. I obviously am not going to try to convince you that you're scum, that's just where I'm at. But since I'm town I have 50-50 on the two lovers pair, so for me personally that's always where I was going to try to eliminate in, so like, you don't need to feel pressured by me. The VT question is a Day 2 or 3 question for me.

[T-Bone]

I mean if we get it wrong it's an obligated 1 on 1 between us and the pair that's left. While we'll have absolute assurance that pair is scum, the VTs will ultimately matter there.

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Anastasia

Alright let's go.

[T-Bone]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

[T-Bone]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

Well lucky for me, I trust VFP way more than I trust you and VFP probably feels the same way.

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum.

I think RM is just upset because now VFP is voting for his pair, and he's creating revisionist history in order to justify his position and defend himself. No one else batted an eye over this sequence, not even Kerset/Bingle. I feel like that A) I was very wrong but also B) gives us a little insight into their alignments. Bingle/Kerset to my knoweldge, and maybe I missed it, haven't even questioned that lovers would be on the same page. Ya'll are making me almost town case them now...but I've always given Bingle credit for defending Kerset...and watching RM get upset that VFP and I will just trust each other is just illuminating. We haven't seen that out of Kerset/Bingle at all. Even in all my discussions with Bingle, and I hope I'm not putting words in their mouth, I never got the impression that they ever had a problem with Klick/myself being together.

[T-Bone]

I saw a marathon of words and I've been gone but from the bit i saw I guess we've been pushing Ration and Ana. It still falls in line with Tbone and VFP being my lockdown pick so there's that.

Only got 1 favor really. I'll obviously vote Ana if y'all don't wanna go along with it but I wanna elim Ration on principal instead and not just getting him on a technicality. It's the same result but voting Ration feels better.

VOTE: Ration

Will probably reread the last 2 pages but frankly nothing on there changed my views at all. I got Smart as the goon from the VTs becuz of Vex, and with Tbone and VFP as town the other 2 are expendable and I think they can convince the other VT (probs Llama) they are the town pair if we're put in Lim or Lose.

Yeah vote Ana, would just be easier than making the symbolic switch to RM (the thought had crossed my mind tbh)

[T-Bone]

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum

Kerset isn't VFP's partner and I still read Bambi as your Goon so really I didn't care, you're correct. I wanted to see if VFP would unvote Bambi the first chance they got and they did.

Hypocrisy to get what you want instead of sincerity. Thank you for being upfront.

[T-Bone]

The play is still getting the lovers right. If you're town you have the information that VFP and I are town. There's no reason to aggro Ana out of the blue unless it was a legitimate read. VFP and I have guaranteed our own elimination in the current game state if Kerset/Bingle are the scum pair, we realize this, yes?

This does also confirm to me that Bambi is town, so that's good from my perspective for what it's worth. I actually think we got it right since Bingle hasn't taking the easy opportunity to put me at L-1 because then the scum between Llama/SS makes an excuse and hammers.

So, I think we got 7/9 slots solved at this point. That's uniquely my perspective though I don't think anyone else can say that with the same confidence except VFP.

[T-Bone]

As much as I don't want to leave the lover question unresolved...I think I read Llama as town.

VFP can you give me your thoughts on the VTs when you see this?

[T-Bone]

I think in retrospect I read Bingle as town? Gah. Kerset has had ample opportunity to seal my fate and hasn't. Like a ridiculous amount of opportunity to do so.

[T-Bone]

Plurality voting means 4 is enough.

[T-Bone]

I'm discounting all 3 VTs voting together with me because I don't think you all would do so, even if the goon had a mislim opportunity. An elimination basically happens when 2 pairs agree on the third. Kerset at any time could have ensured I was the plurality, so to me that counts for something.

[T-Bone]

Im curious as to what people you think could switch their votes to deny Kerset this power he very much obviously has?

[T-Bone]

I've been calling them scum basically all game. That's plenty of cover by itself to mislim me and get away with it. Maybe it still happens. Watch for the person who tries their hardest to blame me for my miselimination in that case.

I also actually just think the game state makes more sense for Ana/RM to be the solve.

[T-Bone]

Im curious as to what people you think could switch their votes to deny Kerset this power he very much obviously has?

No, you're right, nobody can. Kerset can't seal your fate because Bingle already has.

What?

[T-Bone]

Listen I know you can't answer for your predacessor...but VV literally had over a week to put Kerset/Bingle at E-1 and didn't. So I'm not sure you really get to play the "so and so is scum and only I see it" card. That was literally my life for most of the game. I'm choosing to trust my partner's read over my own for better or worse.

[T-Bone]

Nah, I think it's wrong for me to do that, because I would be much more confident in RM/Ana vs Kerset/Bingle than I would be in T-Bone/VFP vs Kerset/Bingle.

To be honest I don't even trust you would have voted Kerset. Alas we may never know.

[T-Bone]

I don't get why you're trying to make both true at the same time. I think you kinda gave away your game in 1046. My town flip would make you confident in Kerset/Bingle but Ana's would make you doubt? What is this?

[T-Bone]

Bambi's only viable scum partners are VFP/me and we're town so she's confirmed to me. I know that doesn't mean much to most people but I do want to put that thought out there.

[T-Bone]

Please stop being dishonest RM, thank you.

[T-Bone]

Please stop being dishonest RM, thank you.

Please stop being dishonest Tbone.

Thank you.

I wasn’t aware I was a dishonest RM or TBone, but I’ll try to stop.

I apologize in advance for the dad joke.

You should be sorry!

But I accept your apology.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Something_Smart

Wild that we ended up here, but alright.

[T-Bone]

@Tbone: are ya sure you want us to focus the VTs first? I mean I trust your town but Kerset and Ration obviously don't townread or like me respectively. If we kill Smart and it's actually Llama both the other Lovers probably'll vote me too.

I'm not sure no, considering I wanted the lovers question resolved. As for what we're now doing, I'm about 50-50 sure, just as I was with the lovers.

[T-Bone]

That is good, I want it to be more and more obvious how scummy he is.

He's literally just going to blame your personality for it.

The longer the shit-fight between you and him goes on for, the less likely anyone is going to have the patience to actually read it.

For what it's worth if I make an incorrect elimination I'd blame myself, not the person who got eliminated.

[T-Bone]

I'll also very much blame myself if Kerset/Bingle are scum for not sticking with it and being more of a pain in the ass about it.

[T-Bone]

Why could we not get anyone to 4, but we can get S-S to 5? Semi-rhetorical question.

[T-Bone]

But that I mean Ana and I were stuck at 4, (if you count VV being on the wrong person kerset was also stuck at 4) but we can get S_S to 5? Oy.....

[T-Bone]

S_S is Llama, Bingle, Tbone and Bambi it's not 5 or did I miss one?

I'm pre-counting VFP

[T-Bone]

There's also the things I said about VV days ago but I'm not re-litigating what is and isn't a valid read with you, RM.

[T-Bone]

Good because you are nobody to validate or invalidate another player's read, you're a fellow player, not a superior. If I don't think your reasoning is sound it doesn't matter to you, vice versa for me.

Say the guy who constantly questioned the validity of my VV read with questions like 'how can you read VV like this when you're wrong?' and then uses that as the basis of his (probably fabricated) scumread?

[T-Bone]

So why not vote him first?

I mean, that was just tried....we literally tried with all three lovers pairs over the course of this game. This is not the provocative statement maybe you envisioned it to be?

[T-Bone]

Llama, you might be over reacting here since the original quote was 'Bambi uses her'. Step back and breathe.

[T-Bone]

I feel like this diverted because I was right in the lovers, but for the wrong reasons.

If Bambi is scum there's bussing.
On the spot choice in lovers would be RM/Ana but I feel that liming VT there only favours scum as a whole.

@T-Bone

how much do you favour Bambi town over Llama here? Is Bambi just set town in your eyes?
I will go over some things on both after work for reasons either are scum but I'll follow.

The only way I see Bingle as scum here is if we were a threat to not be the lim on an RM/Ana town flip. I think in that situation it favours me and you as a lim over Bingle and Kerset so it doesn't add up.

My gut is that Bambi is the townie still. Here's why, and this gives a little insight why I felt comfortable enough to toss around the words 'confirmed town' to me.

I don't think Bambi can be partners with either other pair, and you and I obviously know we're town. Bambi spent a majority of the day with me on Kerset. For all intents and purposes, for most of the day, that looked like where we were gonna go with the elimination. The theory that 'oh this set-up is great for scum to bus' doesn't make sense when we literally couldn't eliminate one of the scum pairs, only for Llama to basically flip it to S_S.

Now because it looked like for most of the day we were gonna be eliminating Kerset, sure you can say 'well, Bambi can be scum with Ana/RM'. What made me start thinking confirmed townie to me was this. I don't think scum!bambi could predict that you would come in and change the read to Ana/RM, and that I would follow suit. That came out of nowhere from a game perspective. If she is scum pocketing me because I am making the incorrect read...that sets me up as the Day 2 lim. Instead you flipped us to Ana/RM and Bambi followed without hesitation. Again, we were in a gamestate where that was the elimination up until literally hours before deadline. The only knock you can maybe glean here is that Bambi flipped to S_S before me. But, either scum!Bambi brought scum!Kerset dangerously close to elimination, or then decided to bring scum!Ana dangerously close to elimination. All scum!Bambi has to do is get the wrong pair eliminated on Day 1, and then turn on us Day 2 and game over she wins. So, no, I don't think her actions overall look like the actions of scum.

I think Llama essentially flipping the game away from perhaps the correct elimination to an incorrect one is more suspect. The only thing that gives me pause is that Llama puts themselves at risk to be the Day 2 lim. But it's also the type of thing I'd do as solo scum I think, as Day 3 is MyLo if we get there, and scum lovers have a slightly better EV I think than solo scum in that situation.

So for me I have two minds. Is Bambi pocketing me, or is Llama making the play I think I'd make as scum in his position?

[T-Bone]

Also I was wrong on SS, I'm not so arrogant that I wouldn't reconsider my read on the two players in question entirely. It's something we'll have to work through over these next few days, VFP.

[T-Bone]

Spoiler: image

Two hours between these VCs. If nothing changes in 1.31, Ana/RM still get eliminated.

I switched, because Bambi switched.

[T-Bone]

Also I was wrong on SS, I'm not so arrogant that I wouldn't reconsider my read on the two players in question entirely. It's something we'll have to work through over these next few days, VFP.

In fairness I was wrong there too.
My main reasons to Swapping were because of your vote, SS most likely being scum, and I wasn't sure if I'd be on at all in the six hours.

So with your Bambi read, I'm happy with it. There was something Kersel said that I was thinking over but I'll find and post it once I'm free.
The thing with Llama was the vote onto Ana when no votes were there.
Once I changed my view and voted Llama unvotes (may have been after your vote too, I need to read and clarify).
Then next thing I know, Llama is joining into the VTs (well, SS)

I really need to go through exactly what happened and why but what's your view on all of that?
You can wait until tonight for me to go through it properly if easier though.

Well it's a continuation of the question I posed yesterday. Why couldn't we eliminate one of the lover pairs, but we could eliminate S_S?

[T-Bone]

I think Llama essentially flipping the game away from perhaps the correct elimination to an incorrect one is more suspect. The only thing that gives me pause is that Llama puts themselves at risk to be the Day 2 lim. But it's also the type of thing I'd do as solo scum I think, as Day 3 is MyLo if we get there, and scum lovers have a slightly better EV I think than solo scum in that situation.

So for me I have two minds. Is Bambi pocketing me, or is Llama making the play I think I'd make as scum in his position?

If its RM/Ana... wouldnt it have been the worst possible thing for me as scum to flip it away from that pair after trying to redirect it there are deadline? Its already now proven and was likely that SS was the first from the VT pool to go, and if we move back to this same scenario with RM/Ana scum already dead it pretty much means I would win right?

Instead we get this scenario where at least one player who has to be VT has already expressed they would vote me over Bambi.

Vote Bambi

You gotta do what you gotta do and I don't begrudge it. But we can't ignore that what happened, happened. I recognize that whoever is town among the VTs knows they've got a 50-50 shot just like I do with the lovers. So you don't need to try and shoot that angle, I recognize it.

[T-Bone]

Spoiler: Fan fiction

Ana! We need to make some distancing but still get VT voted out. Here is my plan.
People won't believe that we got scum Pt if we argue a lot in main. Tunnel yourself on llama and beg me to vote with you. Do your best! Be as convincing as possible. Offer me dance, lap pillow or something, just put your soul in it!

Of course! Anything for you my love!

Slander!

[T-Bone]

I want to listen to you, Ana.

[T-Bone]

I mean I'm leaning that way so...I'm listening.

[T-Bone]

I mean I'm leaning that way so...I'm listening.

Why are you listening and not talking? This is dangerous 50% shot that risks losing the game, if you're Town. I say this to all Lovers.

Also why has Bambi gone quiet?

Less talk = higher chance Scum don't release tells. The logic used this day phase will reveal a lot on day three (which we get to if we vote scum here).

Because if Ana is truly town I want her opinion and reads, and I can't get that if she is going 'woe is me no one is listening.'

[T-Bone]

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

Careful Tbone he'll put you as my partner if you keep that up.

He already did!

This is very cheeky if S/S.

How cheeky is your scumgame TBone?

Very, but I'm cheeky as either alignment. If you're asking 'does T-Bone make posts so he can quote them after winning to dunk on people's the answer is no. I do all my dunking in game as a matter of course tyvm

[T-Bone]

Re:1307 Bambi. As I know I'm town optimal play for me is to see what the other two pairs get up to, since one of those pairs is scum. So no, there's not a risk of me to pounce on you or Llama at this stage.

[T-Bone]

It comes down to basically two things for me. One, I gotta see what the other pairs do because I know one of them is scum. Two, I'm deciding whether Bambi reversed pocketed me on Day 1, but the only person I can reliably discuss that with is VFP. I know my case for Llama, and I know my case for Bambi.

So, I mean, be concerned with me if you want, dislike that I want to reserve the elimination potential for myself (or convince the other town pair to mislim without needing my vote). I'mma be over here trying to solve the game.

[T-Bone]

I mean, it might influence where I vote

[T-Bone]

The plan from Bambi is so scum sided, I think I favour Bambi over Llama for it.
T-Bone, think I'm just being Paranoid here or is this reasonable?

I don't know I'll give it some thought.

Remember that town!Bambi knows 100% Llama is scum, so I could see the rationalizing to get it done. I made similar rationalizations by saying I don't intend to vote until the other pairs have.

[T-Bone]

Let me clarify, the self vote to test doesn't change my opinion on either Llama or Bambi at all.
The reactions from others do though.

Tell me what you think.

[T-Bone]

Thought on this T-Bone?

And yes, town Bambi should always want RM / Ana as the lim here.

I don't quite see why Llama thinks we should think he can't be scum with Kerset/Bingle. He keeps presenting "I only have one possible scum team, Bambi has three" which feels very misleading and makes me think that's the point.

[T-Bone]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

So why is it me or Bambi for you? Isnt it actually Bambi v RM/Ana?

Like this right here is manipulate as fuck. No it's not Bambi vs RM/Ana.

[T-Bone]

From our perspective, VFP, the scum teams would most likely be Bambi/Kerset/Jingle and Llama/Ana/RM.

The logic breaks down for me when you really think about a scum team that features RM and Bambi. What is RM's plan here? To be so unlikeable and so unsuccessful with his bus we vote Llama out of spite?

I think I'm convinced Llama is scum. His arguments about who can be scum with who feel misleading, and I feel like he's doing it to try and draw out the wrong conclusions, rather than trying to get the rest of us to critically think about it.

[T-Bone]

If we don't do VT now then we need to do it tomorrow anyway. Game-wise it doesn't matter.

Umm we're in MiLo. flipping the wrong pair loses the game just as flipping the wrong VT does. There's no Day 3 without a correct flip today.

Which is why I have a major problem with Llama's argument that if we think he's scum we should vote RM. That's not any better.

[T-Bone]

And also the fact that he's literally trying to say "vote someone else if you think I'm scum cause then it's guaranteed"

[T-Bone]

Fuck Logic Get Scum.

Ana went AFK, Ration has been spewing nonsense since day 1 and poorly tried to get the other lovers, and Llama won't even follow his own words by voting them. He's delaying it so he can make a case of it being RM/Ana/Me after we kill them. Giving him a better chance to get me elimed isn't what we need here.

Edit: oh now it's all in. Wonderful.

See this is why Bambi is scum. If they are town there is *no* difference to them specifically between voting me or Ana/RM as they apparently confirmed scum, so no difference. Bambi also ignores that to anyone else, this also is true but the VT isnt solved, so Ana/RM would be a better vote to anyone in lover pairs that think I am scum as it provides a safety net that doesnt end the game today. They just ignore it because... its convenient.

Also im not saying its Bambi + RM/Ana. I am saying there is no way it can be anyone but RM/Ana if I am scum. Im still not really confident who is scum with Bambi here. This is just scum panic who I think missed the fact that by self-voting they confirmed I can only be scum with RM/Ana and that makes then the target over me.

Again. Misleading. Town!Bambi knows 100% that Llama is scum, so Llama trying to argue otherwise is dishonest.

[T-Bone]

Explain why if I think you're scum I should vote for RM instead?

[T-Bone]

Because Kerset and Bingle didn't hammer, right? So they must be town. But this logic still breaks down because it relies on Bambi being scum. Now, she can be, of course. But you can't have it both ways. These are two independent instances that contradict one another.

[T-Bone]

But if you want to take it on the logical conclusion that you're trying to claim, why don't you switch your vote to RM?

[T-Bone]

Llama fuck you with this game why don't you want Bambi eliminated?

If there was ever a case for this scum team though...

[T-Bone]

But Ana is parked on Llama. Oy!

VFP what do you think, purposeful dissonance between RM and Ana, or does this point back to Kerset/Bingle?

[T-Bone]

Because Kerset and Bingle didn't hammer, right? So they must be town. But this logic still breaks down because it relies on Bambi being scum. Now, she can be, of course. But you can't have it both ways. These are two independent instances that contradict one another.

Are you actually scum and I have to listen to RM gloat about it being Bambi+Tbone/VFP...

Again, explain how I am scum and its not Ana/RM too. If it was you/VFP game is over. Bingle/Kerset is proven not true already as a partner. If I am scum, there is zero chance it is not with Ana/RM. ZERO. I agree that Bingle/Kerset is town. So to make me scum, it means its with you (to you its a lie) or with Ana/RM. So the vote is Ana/RM. Yes? Is there any world where I am scum without Ana/RM?

I will *not* move my vote because to me, its 100% Bambi. I dont know who its with, but I know its 100% them, and even more I can prove that I cant be scum without RM/Ana first being proved scum. So why would I ever vote Rm/Ana here? I am just shining light on for any lover pair its dumb to vote me because logic.

I don't expect you to move your vote and wouldn't actually advocate you to.

But your argument is absolute ludicrous.

[T-Bone]

All we've proven is that you can't be scum with me. Congrats, I'm convinced. But the tram you should be selling me on is Bambi/Bingle/Kerset because that makes way more sense from my perspective, but it's odd that you've decided that that isn't a possibility.

[T-Bone]

But Ana is parked on Llama. Oy!

VFP what do you think, purposeful dissonance between RM and Ana, or does this point back to Kerset/Bingle?

Did you miss the fact where again I would be dead as town and game is over if its Kerset/Bingle?

You are better than that. Its the only physically impossible pairing.

Uhhh that's not true at all. Where did Kerset/Bambi/Bingle get the 5th vote to Lim you?

[T-Bone]

With VFP and I withholding our votes and Ana and RM splitting their votes, until Bambi self voted no scum team combo had even the opportunity to get anyone to 5 votes.

So yes, I think it's fair to me to point out to whoever the other town pair is that your arguments break down if you think about them for more than a few seconds.

[T-Bone]

You just said that you'd be dead if Kerset and Bingle are scum, and then you make an argument that makes them not scum with Bambi (and makes Bambi either not scum or scum with RM/Ana). It doesn't do anything to relieve you of your pairings though. It's almost like you're trying to take Bambi's town case and apply it to yourself.

[T-Bone]

To be clear I don't think Bambi bringing herself to L-2 changes anything for me. But if you're going to argue it changes things then I'm absolutely gonna call you on it when you're trying to get me to see the opposite of what actually happened.

[T-Bone]

Let me follow this trail for a moment. Explain RM's death tunnel on Bambi if they are scum together? Like, really think about it and explain it. I'll assume you're town for that exercise.

[T-Bone]

You just said that you'd be dead if Kerset and Bingle are scum, and then you make an argument that makes them not scum with Bambi (and makes Bambi either not scum or scum with RM/Ana). It doesn't do anything to relieve you of your pairings though. It's almost like you're trying to take Bambi's town case and apply it to yourself.

Little drunk... but stop me where I am wrong

1) If the team is me+Bingle/Kerset scum would have already won (lack of Bambi hammer)
2) Team is not me + You/VFP
3) Only team where I am scum is me + Ana/RM
4) RM/Ana can be scum with me or Bambi

Only 2 and 4 are true. I'm not going to read Kerset/Bingle for something they didn't do.

[T-Bone]

Like if I'm gonna rank the scum team viabilities I'm gonna rank them as Llama/RM/Ana 1, Bambi/Kerset/Bingle 2, Llama/Kerset/Bingle 3, and Bambi/RM/Ana 4.

[T-Bone]

That happened after Bambi unvoted herself though?

[T-Bone]

That happened a full 10 posts after Bambi switched her vote back to you so that's proof of nothing.

[T-Bone]

If anything that makes a case that RM/Ana is town and Kerset didn't think Ana would switch her vote.

I actually think it doesn't prove anything, but it most certainly doesn't prove that you aren't scum lol

[T-Bone]

Feels like the natural conclusion that you should draw from that sequence, and thus be selling upon me, that Bambi is scum with Kerset/Bingle...but you're insisting they are town for some reason. Meaning that Bambi has no viable partners from my perspective.

[T-Bone]

But you quoted the vote and post after Bambi had switched their vote and went "look! Proof we're not scum together"

And maybe if that's all it was I'd buy the argument from your perspective. I don't buy how you go from that to also "Bingle/Kerset aren't scum at all".

Like, that chain events would point strongly to a Bambi/Kerset/Bingle scum team....but you want me to not consider that either?? What? Makes no sense if you're town.

[T-Bone]

But let's be honest. You posted #1607 and said that because Kerset didn't hammer Bambi, that clears them as town and you as town. That's a thing you said. A thing that is verifibly untrue because it wasn't possible for them to hammer. You didn't say "oh they had 15 hours to do it". Right after that exchange you made the untrue claim that the lack of a hammer makes you town, and then in 1607 doubled down on that untrue claim.

That's a thing that happened and you can't deny it.

[T-Bone]

So you're just gonna gloss over the lies huh? Mkay.

[T-Bone]

Vote: LlamaFluff

[T-Bone]

I see a lack of addressing the lie you've been trying to peddle, as seen in 1607.

[T-Bone]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Can you clarify? Are you presenting RM/Ana as town in this scenario? Only because a town flip anywhere immediately loses us the game, so there is no tomorrow were we to ignore the VTs and flip a lovers pair. I just want to be able to follow your thought process here.

[T-Bone]

I can see Bingle / Kersel split on the views just because your lim doesn't give anyone town credit to not be the lim.
So it's still a huge fight to win, and just both pushing would look suspicious. Same for our pair as well.

Game ends on a miselim so getting town cred doesn't actually matter.

[T-Bone]

I also think Llama is the solve, since Llama tried to lie about Bingle's vote to town clear himself. Town doesn't need to make stuff up in an attempt to clear themselves. Re-read and tell me what you think VFP.

[T-Bone]

Bambi should vote RM/Ana, but Llama wouldn't because he knows 100% Bambi is scum, but that's not allowed to be true for Bambi for *reasons*.

[T-Bone]

Bambi should vote RM/Ana, but Llama wouldn't because he knows 100% Bambi is scum, but that's not allowed to be true for Bambi for *reasons*.

Are you trying to not understand?

There is zero percent chance that to me Bambi cant be scum. No matter who is their partner
There is a 100% percent chance that RM/Ana is scum to Bambi, if Bambi is town.
There is a 100% percent chance that RM/Ana is scum, if I am scum, to TBone/VFP/Bingle/Kerset
There is a less than 100% percent chance that I am scum if RM/Ana is scum.

Then why are you telling Bambi to vote RM/Ana?

[T-Bone]

In fact, if RM/Ana is 100% scum, lead by example!

[T-Bone]

What a weird fucking game.

[T-Bone]

Just to clarify, we posted at the same time Bambi being on E2
And Llama is E1.

T-Bone regardless of what happens just unvote please.

unvote

I think you're falling hook, line, and sinker for the disinformation campaign but we can talk for a moment.

[T-Bone]

Like, Kerset/Bingle's actions do not clear Llama in any way. Even if you want to buy them as 'not scum with Llama' that's one thing.

But Llama has tried to twist those events to confirm himself as town. Even going so far as to quote two posts from Kerse/Bingle when Bambi was NOT in elimination range to "prove" that they aren't scum together. That is a blatant obscuring of the facts, and why I keep using the word lie, VFP.

[T-Bone]

You just said that you'd be dead if Kerset and Bingle are scum, and then you make an argument that makes them not scum with Bambi (and makes Bambi either not scum or scum with RM/Ana). It doesn't do anything to relieve you of your pairings though. It's almost like you're trying to take Bambi's town case and apply it to yourself.

Little drunk... but stop me where I am wrong

1) If the team is me+Bingle/Kerset scum would have already won (lack of Bambi hammer)
2) Team is not me + You/VFP
3) Only team where I am scum is me + Ana/RM
4) RM/Ana can be scum with me or Bambi

Only 2 and 4 are true. I'm not going to read Kerset/Bingle for something they didn't do.

Wait... you are claiming that Me + Bingle/Kerset didnt hammer Bambi at -1?

VOTE: Bambi

I think that this is wrong choice.

Isnt this Kerset not hammering a -1 Bambi?

Right here VFP. Bambi was not at L-2 when this occurred. This is the "proof" being fabricated.

Like, Kerset/Bingle not hammering Llama has nothing to do with Llama's alignment. Llama continues to try to claim Kerset/Bingle's actions (or lack of actions) as proof to him being town. That's dishonest.

Llama then tries to frame this vote as RM/Ana vs. Bambi because of this supposed clear. That's a dishonest argument you are falling for atm. There's nothing honest or true about that argument.

Llama then uses that position to try and tell us 'if Bambi were town she should vote for RM'. That's dishonest.

I'm gonna need something more compelling than 'Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana'. If that's true then let's solve that problem today.

[T-Bone]

Because he fucking wants you dead what do you think I mean.

Point to a time where you disagrees or argued with Llama at all this game.

@T-Bone - if you see what Llama is doing as lying, then so is Bambi here, right?
Bambi has been manipulating this entire argument with the only counter that just isn't true. Llama doesn't want RM / Ana dead.
Either I'm just reading entirely wrong or Bambi is doing what I expect them to be doing here and confusion the argument.

I don't think this is anything. Bambi!town knows Llama is scum.

[T-Bone]

I don't see how anyone thinks Llama is mafia here.

The only team he could be paired with is Me/RM.

If you look at the interactions between my slot and llama's slot, does it really look like scum theater to anyone?

I am town.

Llama is town.

Let's vote out Bambi and we can talk about which lover pair to eliminate tommorrow.

This is a sudden tune change. Earlier it was 'Llama is scum and no one is listening to me.'

[T-Bone]

I feel like that confirms RM/Ana as the scum pair though, that's the sad part. I can literally just pull all of Ana's 'Llama is scum and I'm done with this game' quotes and put it beside 1734 where basically nothing has changed except the sudden need for a Bambi elimination.

Meaning the solve is absolutely RM/Ana/Llama I think.

[T-Bone]

I read the entire thing differently and it seems more frustration. Even I wasn't understanding it at first until I had to think it over and over.

The problem with your argument here is that Llama is still correct.
Town Llama argues that town do ot lim on him just as much as scum Llama.

The difference is scum Llama has no option but to use this argument, as town Llama thinks of this from experience alone, so it's basically down to a 50/50 with this as the argument alone for me to put Llama as scum.

Thoughts on Llama's day 1, and thoughts of how Bambi has not been concerned all game with.me and T-Bone?

My argument (and I think Kerset's argument, not to put words in their mouth) is that Llama is going above and beyond simple 'logical arguments' to make sure that no matter what, he isn't eliminated.

He wants everyone to contingent their scumread of him on Ana/RM.

He argues very dishonestly that town!Bambi should vote RM/Ana and not him.

He tried to claim something that Kerset/Bingle didn't do town cleared him. Then he tried to claim falsely something they did do also town cleared him.

Like, these are things that have happened this game. I see the argument for 'Llama is only scum with RM/Ana' that you're making. What I don't see is the argument that there's anything he's done to indicate he's town.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Llama

I'm comfortable going back to this, especially with Ana switching for no reason.

[T-Bone]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

[T-Bone]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

At this point tell me what you want me to say or do. I don't understand why it isn't obvious to you.

Llama is not scum, look at the depth of Llama's posts vs Bambi's, just observe it. Llama has had more logic all game, it's a fact.

Llama has twisted logic and outright lied about what is happening in the game to proclaim himself town.

[T-Bone]

I don't think it's worth me repeating why Llama is correct here.
There is no other way to explain it.

I think I just vote Bambi today but I'm going to give T-Bone the respect to change my mind here before doing anything.

I mean...read my posts lol

[T-Bone]

Please flipflop to me as I'm not voting Bambi I believe she is town.

[T-Bone]

Looking for a current VC though.

[T-Bone]

Okay I'll do it Bambi.

VOTE: RationalMadman

I hate it and Llama is the correct move but I know Bambi is the incorrect move so here we go.

VFP I need you.