Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

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VOTE: InsidiousLemons

thing about the sample vt role PM seems forced

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Hi all! My username is usually abbreviated to CDB. I'm an old fogey from back in the day and this is my first game for a few years, so I'm definitely going to be rusty and probably quite bad. Apologies in advance!

Do we know how many mafia there are in this game?

Why did you ask this question, boxxy?

VOTE: bloodhail

hi cdb welcome back 2 the site

[bloodhail]

Tell me about yourselves! I’ve only played with Not_Mafia once and with UNOwen in my second game on site which was like May of last year.

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

1. ive played some games
2. i prefer town
3. if i was good at lying, do you think i'd tell you

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It's kind of a shame that bloodhail essentially ignored the votes entirely.

why would you expect me to react to a no content page 1 bandwagon

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yep

his thing about the sample VT pms seeming forced seems forced so still happy here

whys it seem forced to you

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3. Trust me, I hate lying.

ok this is a better answer than mine

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why is being interactive town

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avatars are against my rekligion

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anyway answer my question

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my followup was going to be asking what you thought of boxxy so i guess that answers that

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[quote="In post 43, MaxTheFox"][/quote]
big irony because i replaced you in this one

anyway dont post

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yo this is scum

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why is being interactive town

I feel like that's a little like asking why is a vt pm town.

interacting with people is part of the game as either alignment

why would i not be interacting as scum

this makes no sense

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all these walls jesus what year is it

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It's kind of a shame that bloodhail essentially ignored the votes entirely.

why would you expect me to react to a no content page 1 bandwagon

Not really a question of whether or not I expected you to react; more 'it would be nice if bloodhail or someone else had reacted to it in an interesting and/or useful way, although it was always possible that nobody would'.

first quote is talking about me in specific doesn't seem to imply you wanted reactions from other people

[bloodhail]

still think lemons is scum, the panic unvote at anya's fake E-1 and blaming it on being drunk reek of trying to look town, arguments against italiano are bad, trying to twist his words too much


i think t3 is town for probably bad reasons

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I'm considering just voting out boxxy and lemons and hoping we win the game.

doubt theyre a team tbh

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p-edit: bloodhail what are your "bad reasons" for the T3 townread?

cant say because of ongoing games

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I'm considering just voting out boxxy and lemons and hoping we win the game.

doubt theyre a team tbh

Who would you guess is Lemon’s partner?

too early to say but dart throw guess is CDB or N_M

dont think boxxy goes off on lemons about rolefishing if teamed

boxxy feels flipbaity imo

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lol boxxy thinks long posts = town

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anyas content is more valuable than most of the hot air lemons puts out

effort is not a towntell

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i can tell this is gonna be a grind

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Also bloodhail, I should clarify, by "effort" i don't mean "long." One can shit out lots of words without saying much. But look at T3's posts for example:

viewtopic.php?t=86556&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

These are what I would qualify as "low effort." Not much substance, just a lot of "joe reads town," with no analysis, no justification of reads, no pressuring. Such posts are basically fluff and don't help move the game forward at all.

today we learned that posting reads is fluff

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gonna be a hell of a game i can tell you

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thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

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lemons is such obvious scum jesus

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cant wait til day 3 they win and everyone is like "but they wrote so many words how could they be scum!!"

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boxxy can be town. i like what's come out of her recently.

what do you like coming out of him, exactly

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thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much? where is my vote right now? not on T3. where has my vote ever been? not on T3. but i just came from a game that was lost in part because of T3's refusal to engage with the game as town, and i'm not about to let him coast on what are objectively low-effort and largely non-game-advancing posts. the fact that you're arguing that he continue to be allowed to play this way is not conducive to a town victory.

nah fuck off, just because you dont like minimalist posting doesnt make it fluff

accusing me of a misrep because i disagreed with boxxy on a single post is pure scumshit

[bloodhail]

I'm not really at all surprised, given my limited recollections of playing with Not_Mafia, but I

am

annoyed that, in a game this small, one player is essentially making themselves unavailable for reading. Always tempting to make that vote but I have no particular confidence that it'd actually get any more out of him.

@Anya

do you actually feel like your vote is doing anything useful?

hes not gonna post anything useful

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i said boxxy looks like flipbait

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the old term was l*nchbait but thats not supposed to be used anymore

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and n_m is not gonna do anything which means you probably need to policy him at some point

fair warning though if anyone is put at E-1 he will hammer

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its very likely he saw the E-1 announcement and didnt realize he was already voting you since he wasnt paying attention to the game, yea

hed do it as either alignment but it might mean hes more likely to be scum here

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cdb probably scum too

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cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

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what abt the other ppl defending you

[bloodhail]

Is anybody else defending me? That from what I can remember.

ive been saying it repeatedly, anya decided you were town, cdb said he thought you were town tho i guess none of us as vocally

[bloodhail]

- i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on

overall it's a scumlean.

this is p bad

i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask. as scum my nefarious master plan is to...defend him?

like if u wanna ask T3 to explain things im not stopping you from doing so but im saying reading into what he does as scummy is bad when its a characteristic of how he acts

u seem more concerned with wanting people to act in a way u conceive as the "proper" way to play rather than finding scum

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- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154

i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

also: lmao

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unowen feelin' townie

this one is all gut

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I'm definitely still on the learning curve when it comes to getting used to reading players like bloodhail, T3 and Anya

you can just ask me questions i dont bite

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cdb might be okay actually

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Wagons I'd therefore consider: Anya, T3, NM

however let me ask you do you have actual suspicion of anya and T3 or is it just not townreading them (NM is NM, not worth asking about)

[bloodhail]

cdb might be okay actually

What made you change your mind?

his posts, right before i said that. they didn't sound scummy.

[bloodhail]

i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.

you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?

ok

do you think T3 is scummy for not answering you

as scum my nefarious master plan is to...defend him?

i think your primary objective is to discredit boxxy. they're making some solid points and by calling them "flipbait" you're insinuating that their perspective is not to be taken seriously. it also leaves the door open to you deciding later that they actually are scum while still being able to claim impartiality. in the same breath, you're actively working against pressure for T3 to reveal his thought process, which in turn makes him harder to read and diminishes his voice. putting 2 very conceivably town players on mute does not help town. i don't see this as a "nefarious plan", but scum very rarely put in major legwork D1 so the potential that this is what you're doing is enough for a scumlean from me.

discredit boxxy on what, exactly

the two people he's voted are you and not_mafia. why would i be trying to discredit votes in either direction

how is calling someone "flipbait" leaving the door open to deciding he's scum later? i'm unambiguously saying i think he's town who has eccentric opinions that were getting him scumread for not great reasons

how does taking pressure off a player i have a townlean on being unhelpful to town. i am saying scumreads on T3 for having underexplained reads are likely ill-conceived. you are contorting yourself to make this attack

this argument is absolutely terrible. it is trying to turn me defending players from early scumreads on them into me somehow working against them. it's trying to frame "pressure" on players as a net positive even if they are likely town. this is complete nonsense. pressure in the sense they were facing was working toward a potential elimination and i openly disagreed with it. those players are the easist players for scum to push because of their playstyle, and the goal of scum is to get town eliminated

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i fully admit T3 seemingly not engaging with anything being said is annoying

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Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?

i have no completed games with anya but so far her reads have made sense at the moments she has expressed them

possible she isn't bouncing around as much because there are fewer players

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for the record the deadline is in less than 4 days so we should probably be running someone up for a claim

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The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.

These two games in particular…is the reason I’m questioning.
Mini 2199: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86090
Mini 2201: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195

Notice the very looseness of her votes and posts; almost to scummy levels and that ridiculous tstbs none sense people throw around. I’m just not feeling the same laxity when I read her iso here. I know it’s pretty weak, but it is something that has caught my attention.

see, i don't think i really see a noticeable meta difference but i definitely feel like italiano really thinks he's onto something with anya

[bloodhail]

From my experience accusations of fishing tend to come from scum. Leaving my vote on boxxxy.

i feel like i may have overleveled myself on T3, this reasoning isnt good and is just repeating a thing from earlier in the thread, dont see thoughts evolving with the gamestate in an organic way, level of contribution is weak

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no. T3 is an overall townlean atp

.................................why?

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Having bloodhail and Lemons as one's top two scumreads seems like an ass-pull.

its almost certainly based on our reads of him

[bloodhail]

italiano
unowen
boxxy
anya


cdb


n_m
t3
lemons


zzz game

reread cdb again and am back to meh on him

[bloodhail]

we have 2 days left

boxxy you probably will need to claim soon as you are the leading wagon and people seem not very interested in alternatives

im looking at your stuff against unowen and i do not see, he looks like he's scumhunting

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still town. 260 doesn't bother me if that's what you're asking, and i can understand the mindset behind his earlier posts like 167 and 182.

@bloodhail - why would scum!Lemons reject the opportunity to walk back their boxxy town read here? Deadline is approaching and the game is slow, scum in that position would probably be feeling the pressure to find a viable counterwagon.

why do they need to walk it back if boxxy is town? deadline pressure will force votes on the nearest wagon and they keep their hands clean

[bloodhail]

not everyone plays optimally and turning on your counterwagon would be seen as suspect. still dont tr lemons. still dont think boxxy is scum

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im either giving someone a free pass when i shouldnt be or not_mafia is scum

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im either giving someone a free pass when i shouldnt be or not_mafia is scum

I'm town

thank u

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UNVOTE:

VOTE: cdb

had a flash of thought that i may be tunneled

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rereading makes me wonder if our pair could actually be Italiano and N_M. Italiano handled my suspicion of him strangely (see Owen's 113), and 158/159 are weirdly defensive of Not_Mafia after 3 nothing posts:

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

was there no useful content to post by page 7? your own post history certainly suggests otherwise.

then despite these assurances, in 189 he's fine giving N_M a free D2 pass even in light of a continued total lack of content from him.

if not_mafia is one of our (most likely) 2 scum, that could explain why everyone else looks so darn... town. it's hard to pick out 1 scum out of 8 active players, but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8. i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

thoughts?

i would sort of expect not_mafias partner to not overtly defend him though its wifomy. i think in general though italianos been town and trying to hunt

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boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else.

i also never like it when someone says something like this

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throw my last reads list in the trash

what i'm looking at with cdb is that so fr he's mostly found reasons to townread people but has been light on actual scumreads, his posting is hitting essentially the bare minimum - his last two posts were random pop-ins with a small a,ount of commentary on some random thing, there's no attempt at really keeping up with the flow of the game or following what's going on

something about lemons getting wrapped up in their little worldbuilding in their last post gives me a little doubt

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need T3 and boxxy to weigh in

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we only have a day left

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Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

by doing what lmao

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im not voting a probably town boxxy counterwagon

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meh

ill hammer n_m if we get the votes there

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lol i woulda done it anyway

fingers crossed i guess

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i'm self-clearing myself on the basis that the boxxy kill is woefully bad

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VOTE: unowen

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fwiw the large normal ended overnight, in that game i was scum with t3 and bussed him day 1

single game meta is terrible but his play that game was absurdly scummy with bizarre overconfident pushes with terrible reasoning and blatant opportunism

granted i had an insider perspective on his play that game so the qualities may have been more noticeable in my mind

dont think hes playing like that here altho i did have a brief moment of doubt when i made a list

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kiss my ass

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can you not E-1 me 14 hours into the day, idiot

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what is even with that vote, actually

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for the record i meant what i said about the boxxy kill: it was horrible and potentially game-losing for scum in a 9p, regardless of the fact that he was more or less obvious town

i don't think cdb makes that kill unless i'm badly overestimating him. beyond that, ehh. reads not very strong

[bloodhail]

Using towncred to do nothing and votein the poe.

who the fuck was giving me towncred besides you

do u rly think i was "doing nothing"

"vote in the poe", you mean right now, or yesterday? b/c i think theres a reasonable chance unowen is scum because his attempted case on boxxy was stinky dog crap and his reads outside that were lukewarm townreads on other peoples votes

[bloodhail]

whoever killed boxxy was likely someone intimidated by his reads and wanted him out of the way regardless of being a claimed vt because they didnt want him pushing them (this is also probably a good look for lemons)

i ~always shoot for a PR here night 1 after losing a partner

the easy answer is scum in italiano/unowen but T3's vote on me really sucks complete ass and makes me want to rescind that read

p-edit: well that makes things easier

[bloodhail]

why is the boxxy kill "woefully bad" if it came from you or cdb, but you can believe it came from unowen?

because cdb has been around a while and would know shooting a claimed VT is pants on head stupid

unowen is new and might not know that killing a VT in a 9p when you've lost a partner potentially loses the game because there could be a town investigative or jailkeeper or something like that that can turn the game into a mechanical win

[bloodhail]

meh even in unowens newbie scumgame there was an attempt to pr hunt

but who else kills boxxy, really

[bloodhail]

K, got it.
IUNOwen or bloodhail at this point. Outside of the nm flip bloodhail is a tr.

do u think i 1. dont take hammer on boxxy when given the chance 2. hesitate to bus nm but dont do anything to save him

i said id vote him all day doesnt make me scum that i got beat to the hammer

[bloodhail]

on further reflection T3 is bad at this game so he might make that kill

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VOTE: bloodhail

This feels pretty straightforward.

how much are you willing to bet on it, fucko

[bloodhail]

he switches his vote to... cdb. does this not read like bloodhail sensing the n_m momentum picking up and deciding to push the next most prominent wagon as a counter?

if i sensed there was momentum on not_mafia id have voted him lmao

but half the people day 1 were stupidly resistant to it

additionally cdb was an actual scumread because he wasn't producing things resembling solving where not_mafia is literally a shot in the dark. a vote on cdb is likely to produce some level of useful response

not hard

[bloodhail]

you're basing your solve almost entirely on who is "bad enough" to NK boxxy rather than on yesterday's dayplayt. you are either scum or are too hyperfocused to see that scum may have doubted boxxy's vt claim, or may have weighed the options and decided a boxxy kill was worth it anyway, or may have killed him to implicate another player, or may have simply forgotten about or not paid adequate attention to the claim, as anya did. hell, i've played more than my fair share of 9p games, but if you asked me whether shooting a vt after losing a partner d1 substantially increases scum's chances of losing the game, i'd have said no. it's entirely possible that whoever shot boxxy may just not have had the awareness to know that it was a bad idea, nevermind all the examples above where they did know and decided to do it anyway.

oh so are you claiming scum then

[bloodhail]

but really, no, not all of my thinking is entirely on NKA but it's not like you can get partner tells off not_mafia and anyone teamed with him would b entirely willing to bus him. this makes the game complicated. none of my reads off yesterdays dayplay are strong enough that i rule someone out from being scum entirely

(an aside: anyone who tries to use not_mafia for associative tells is a fucking idiot or scum and should be policy yeeted and their opinions entirely discarded)

[bloodhail]

fwiw the large normal ended overnight, in that game i was scum with t3 and bussed him day 1

single game meta is terrible but his play that game was absurdly scummy with bizarre overconfident pushes with terrible reasoning and blatant opportunism

granted i had an insider perspective on his play that game so the qualities may have been more noticeable in my mind

dont think hes playing like that here altho i did have a brief moment of doubt when i made a list

on further reflection T3 is bad at this game so he might make that kill

look, you did it just now. what is the rationale behind disregarding the townpoints from your meta knowledge of t3 in favour of the idea that he's bad enough at the game that he may indeed have made the kill? i understand that 443 is far from an endorsement of t3, but the "on further reflection" suggests that you're at least partially rescinding what you've already said about him today. why does the revelation that t3 is "bad at this game" outweigh the fact that he isn't playing the way he did when he was scum?

because i already said meta knowledge off one fuckin game isnt that strong and his vote on me is the same opportunistic shit he pulled as scum. u act as if a meta based read is supposed to be iron clad or that i didnt waver and have doubts on day 1

and how would you respond to this:

what reason does scum!T3 have for the change of heart in 397?

meh, i had forgotten about the movement and reconsideration of his vote late in the day that did look town. sometimes people do shit just to look town though. i wouldnt necessarily say hes done anything that makes him clear but meh

[bloodhail]

same qusetion to you as unowen: how confident are you willing to bet that im scum

[bloodhail]

u seem very uncomfortable with my NKA attempts

[bloodhail]

none of my reads off yesterdays dayplay are strong enough that i rule someone out from being scum entirely

do you agree with my points on anya/cdb in 469? why or why not?

nothing is certain but i haven't namedropped those two bc i don't think there's strong reasons to suspect them, yeah. anya probably doesnt hardbus not_mafia day 1 when there were other viable wagons although u are maybe overstating the extent to which she drove that wagon. wouldnt name either of them in my PoE regardless right now

u seem very uncomfortable with my NKA attempts

what do you think this says about me? there's almost certainly only one scum left, so if anything this should be a point in my favour

what

[bloodhail]

same qusetion to you as unowen: how confident are you willing to bet that im scum

what are you hoping to accomplish with this question? suffice it to say that if the answer were "very" or "entirely", you probably wouldn't be around to ask it.

im asking u how much u are willing to bet that i am scum

put it this way: would you stake your own life in this game that i am scum? that simple.

are you confident enough to bet that i will flip scum and the game will end, and that if i flip town, you should be voted out next?

[bloodhail]

that simple, buddy. my life for yours. if you agree to it i will gladly lay down and die

[bloodhail]

Let's not, bloohail.

nah

[bloodhail]

same qusetion to you as unowen: how confident are you willing to bet that im scum

what are you hoping to accomplish with this question? suffice it to say that if the answer were "very" or "entirely", you probably wouldn't be around to ask it.

im asking u how much u are willing to bet that i am scum

put it this way: would you stake your own life in this game that i am scum? that simple.

are you confident enough to bet that i will flip scum and the game will end, and that if i flip town, you should be voted out next?

that simple, buddy. my life for yours. if you agree to it i will gladly lay down and die

i'm struggling to see town!bloodhail's motivation for making this proposal. you don't seem to think i'm scum (especially since it looks like you were trying to make the exact same gambit with UNOwen in 471), so why would town!you even want to bet on this if it's most likely to just end up in two consecutive green flips? it just reads like you're trying to get me to hesitate, so you can point to that hesitation as scum trying to self-preserve (in contrast with your own willingness to bet your life). you also don't even have any control over the elimination tomorrow if you're dead, so unless you're softing vengeful townie ("my life for yours"), it's an incredibly performative attempt at finding scum. and i don't think that town!you really believes this gambit is actually going to get you anywhere.

my scumread on bloodhail is strengthening. it's early in the day, but i think i'm getting confident enough to want to flip this (p-edit: italiano seems to agree). i'm not asking for a claim yet because i do think there's no reason

not

to use the time at our disposal, but i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

okay, lemons

i die, you die next, ok?

just say yes instead of writing a pile of irrelevant word vomit on how this makes me scum

further evasion of the question will be taken as a cop-out

[bloodhail]

Here's a thought. They thought boxxy was a pr. I know he claimed VT but maybe scum didn't believe him. Or...maybe they didn't know who the PR was and at least wanted to get an easy kill. Or... maybe they killed boxxy in order to point to the kill and say how bad it was, you know to clear themselves and frame other people.

lmao you are so bad at this game

[bloodhail]

like lol god its so obnoxious that such a complete trash player as italiano has to be confirmed town lmao

[bloodhail]

i can only hope he gets NKed before lylo so he doesnt throw

[bloodhail]

anyway mr gabbagool im not gonna bother responding to you because youre wrong and bad but also confirmed town my priority is finding the actual mafia

[bloodhail]

Here's a thought. They thought boxxy was a pr. I know he claimed VT but maybe scum didn't believe him. Or...maybe they didn't know who the PR was and at least wanted to get an easy kill. Or... maybe they killed boxxy in order to point to the kill and say how bad it was, you know to clear themselves and frame other people.

lmao you are so bad at this game

Okay since you are god at this game, who is scum?

im working on it, thanks

right now im in the p[rocess of sorting lemons and unowen if theyd actually respond to me

[bloodhail]

i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

having said this, we have heard suspiciously little out of UNOwen -- as in literally one four-word post -- considering his relative activity yesterday. obviously everyone has a life outside of the game, but i'm very surprised that he hasn't had anything more to say on what's happened since the end of D1. i still think bloodhail is more probable, but his silence could be an indication that we're on the wrong track and he's just sort of folding his arms and watching us fight amongst ourselves.

hey, answer me

i die and flip town, you die tomorrow

deal?

[bloodhail]

WHY ARE YOU FROZEN LEMONS

[bloodhail]

the exact respoonse i expected of cowardly scum

VOTE: insidiouslemons

i regret ever backing down here but largely they're spouting bullshit and the throwaway shade on unowen is bad


when i flip town, kill this next, 100%

[bloodhail]

i pulled that for the purpose of reaction testing and you failed hard

[bloodhail]

as i've said multiple times, i don't want you dead yet. i literally do not want to eliminate you right now. why are you foaming at the mouth trying to get me to agree to this ridiculous gambit?

p-edit: okay lol

you literally only talk about how your scumread ion me just keeps strengthening and you cant see it being anyone other than me, yet you're unwilling to back it up when i call you on it


complete and total false bravado

[bloodhail]

bloodhail can you not.
This only implicates you more.

dude lmao i dont care if i get voted here, im town, the game on regardless

[bloodhail]

how much are you willing to bet on it, fucko

Quite a bit.

469 echoes my thoughts, I don't have much to add. Lemons doesn't discuss themself in the post, but I think the way they pushed against N_M also puts them in the "not credible as scum" camp. Meanwhile you were straight into today with a narrative about the boxxy kill (apparently having already researched my previous games) and your posts since day start read like you're trying to bluster your way out of a bad situation.

k, same thing i said to lemons: i die, you willing to go next?

[bloodhail]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

[bloodhail]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Need more time?

a lil bit

[bloodhail]

if i had to guess yea, i'd say last mafia is one of the two rat cowards who want to shove me into a grave but won't bet their life on it - both trying to discredit the argument i wouldn't make the kill with reasoning that betrays that they

would

make that stupid a kill - "maybe boxxy was lyin about being VT" isnt the thought that crosses a townies mind but it might be the thought of the stupid scumbag that did it

not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them

it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?

so, these read like they could be frustration with an inactive partner

- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154

[snip]

i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.

VOTE: Not_Mafiai hated this quote from lemons here day 1 and it doesnt look better now - attacking me for suggesting not_mafia as a policy vote while simultaneously voting not_mafia. blatantly contradictory and considering their later posts pretty bad

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

again, could this be annoyance at having a partner doing nothing? theres a hint of that

rereading makes me wonder if our pair could actually be Italiano and N_M. Italiano handled my suspicion of him strangely (see Owen's 113), and 158/159 are weirdly defensive of Not_Mafia after 3 nothing posts:

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

was there no useful content to post by page 7? your own post history certainly suggests otherwise.

then despite these assurances, in 189 he's fine giving N_M a free D2 pass even in light of a continued total lack of content from him.

if not_mafia is one of our (most likely) 2 scum, that could explain why everyone else looks so darn... town. it's hard to pick out 1 scum out of 8 active players, but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8. i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

thoughts?

but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8.

Nervousness?! Come on bruh the framing of that is so wrong it’s ridiculous.

way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.

here lemons is trying to draw preflip associatives between italiano and n_m - typical scum tactic, tie someone to your partner so you have a miselim target in case your partner goes down

i'm unsure about CDB but not_mafia has made it clear he isn't interested in contributing to solving the game. he's dead weight at best.

i can compromise on cdb. with not_mafia lolhammer potential he's now essentially at E-1

@cdb claim? consider this intent to soft-hammer

also this is weaselly especially given the shit they're trying to give me today

i do still prefer n_m but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. if you guys want we can leave it until the morning but cdb has all the momentum and it looks like we won't get any help from t3 on a n_m exec for some reason

again, not great




is this a rock solid slam dunk open and shut case? nah, i cant say with 100% confidence. but i think lemons should always be one of the people you kill in he POE

[bloodhail]

i screwed up the quote tags sorry

[bloodhail]

I don't think policy executions are something that should be considered until the day is ready to end. N_M trolling is exactly what he did in my last game. Over the course of day 1 he eventually contributed enough relevant content to get a read, but I don't expect it to be possible to pressure him into doing so early.

Anya was also in that game so she should know this. Despite that her vote is currently sitting on the player least likely to provide meaningful content in response even though she claimed to want to provoke discussion, which is a major red flag.

VOTE: boxxy

Town can be erratic but the ISO doesn't look like a natural progression to me. Italiano/Anya are suspected initially, then vote against N_M and there's no follow up on the initial suspicions. Italiano renews his vote against boxxy, which is laughed off. T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about. Instead of actually discussing suspicions the majority of boxxy's posts are wrapped up in the playstyle debate and the continued N_M vote is eventually justified by 167 which is fine in isolation but "lack of anything else to go on" doesn't match his previous opinions.

I don't see how he can end up on "Lemons might be scum white knighting" before first sorting his own voters.

boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else. I suppose I'm not against a compromise on N_M, though that would just be a combination of PoE and policy.

re Anya: I've skimmed the ISO from the game that Italiano linked and while he's correct the vibe is different, that game was much faster so the comparison isn't sound at all. (Anya's 0-33 posts took place over a ~2 day period for both games linked, here it has taken ~7 days to reach post 28). If I ignore that my experience with Anya was from a more active game, nothing's really pinged me here except me interpreting her initial vote as more serious than she claimed it was. And considering her posts in the game linked the idea that scum!Anya would be pretending to have a semi-serious read in the early game is not realistic, so I think I was just wrong about that regardless of her alignment.

meanwhile unowen largely ignores n_m's existence and attacks boxxy for voting him, its pretty lousy and also how i could see a n_m partner playing - like those arre the only approaches, ignore/deflect attention from him or get annoyed at him

so yea im fine with one of those two

[bloodhail]

friendly neighbor is a weak PR so theres almost certainly 1 other pr in the setup, and thats likely it

dont ever vote cdb, dont ever vote anya, dont let italiano lead the game after today lmao

[bloodhail]

boxxy was pointing the finger at CDB on a n_m flip but i still dont think he makes that kill? i would think he has more sense. level 0, prob points way more to unowen but you can elim both of them and probably win the game



k i'm done here

[bloodhail]

Real quick I’m trying to get it through my head. Why was “vanilla town boxxy” a bad kill for scum? Explain like I’m 5 please?

sigh

even if you assume boxxy would be treated like an IC (not remotely a given thing)

in a 9 player setup with 2 scum there are going to be hidden power roles. if an investigative role exists, they have the potential to win the game mechanically, either by getting a guilty or generating enough clears to have a mechanical POE. to instead shoot a claimed VT is risking autoloss, and unlike what the weasels scumcasing me are trying to argue there was no reason to believe boxxy would ever claim VT as PR

in the large normal as scum i plotted out everyone night 1 and determined who was the best kill based on their reads + likely PR status, there was a guy who posted 800 times and was obvious town to me but i didnt kill him because he had effectively outed himself as VT by selfvoting. he ended up being the game losing misyeet for town because a couple people tunneled him. in a similar sense thats why i never kill boxxy here.


anyway, you dont gotta believe me here, it doesnt matter. idgaf if i die here and it probably doesnt hurt town win condition that much

you have cdb/t3/anya likely town, and yr poe is lemons/unowen. if one of them is the other power role then swap in anya i guess? (even that feels like a reach but on reflection feel slightly less confident in that read than the other two). there's very unlikely more than 2 PRs though unless theyre very weak

[bloodhail]

ii feel like the simple answer here is just to lim bloodhail, owen and me in any order. i think we can all agree that it's exceedingly unlikely we don't find scum in that pool

does scum say this

heh

i wonder

[bloodhail]

i think it's the tree or bloodhail

possible that bloodhail recognised he looked really bad from being off wagon so needed to make a chilli flavoured kill

this is not great also

[bloodhail]

lemons effectively has intent to hammer so i'll claim

im vt, go ahead and get me out of this game

your new POE is unowen/anya

anya's vote hopping today is unnerving enough for me to swap her in for lemons because i think at this point shes not really trying to solve, and what can i say im a sucker for lemons most recent post

[bloodhail]

however, the 3 town players who vote me today are still bad at this game. cheers

[bloodhail]

and ftr its better at this point to just elim me and possibly not out who the remaining pr is

[bloodhail]

i think it's the tree or bloodhail

possible that bloodhail recognised he looked really bad from being off wagon so needed to make a chilli flavoured kill

like i dont buy she really believes this, this is someone talking themselves into a read they know is incorrect. she has to contort her reasoning to reach that conclusion

[bloodhail]

Okay so bloodhail has called four players in this game trash: T3, myself, Lemons and UNOwen. What do we all have in common? We voted for him. Anya and Delibird are only good right now because they haven’t voted him, but given the standard and pattern if they did they’d join us on the list. If we all look at the same evidence and come to the same conclusion, is it accurate to call us all wrong?

There is a difference in tone when town feels they are being miselim’d and when scum know they’re about to lose. I’ve found that town tend to implore more and try to prove to people why they’re town and scum tend to think the cases against them are stupid or impossible and are more hostile, condescending, or sarcastic.

I mean death pacts are stupid and only benefit scum. Using WIFOM to prove you wouldn’t do something is as foolish as the term itself. Your Day 1 play was underwhelming after a reread. Your Day 2 play has changed drastically. Why? Because scum was killed. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. So unless there is another scum (meaning 3 scum) and they have perfectly set you up to look the most like scum, occam’s razor tells me it’s you. Mafia can be difficult but sometimes it’s simple.

If anyone else has anything to say or ask or whatever you can, but I’m pretty set on where I’m going today.

i just called anya scum, keep up with the program dude

[bloodhail]

but yes if this game had actual good players in it i never get miseliminated here (but then boxxy doesn't get nked by a good player)

you're bad, you're killing town, you refused to kill scum day 1, you voted fucking obvious town boxxy, your performance this game is likely to result in a town loss if you are allowed to continue influencing the game. you have shown no ability whatsoever to correctly identify town and scum and in fact the likely quickest path to victory for town in this game would be inverting your reads

now hammer me because you're butthurt i called you bad

[bloodhail]

and remember: anya/unowen. don't vote cdb, don't vote t3

[bloodhail]

like seriously i'm asking to be hammered and taken out of this miserable shitfest of a game, what does it take to make that happen

[bloodhail]

and don't fucking blame me for your own trash read based on your over-emotional play when i flip town

[bloodhail]

i will reiterate: anya's play today is super fucking scummy where lemons and unowen are both potentially shooting themselves in the ass after i flip town. not the strongest thing though, unowen stays poe because his content is overall worse than lemons

k i'm done

[bloodhail]

arent you literally a child

[bloodhail]

its not immature to say italiano has very bad logic that has resulted in him consistently having incorrect reads this game and his response to me is based primarily on emotionality and having his feelings hurt rather than anything that would actually indicate me being scum. thats spitting straight facts.

ive accepted that im not going to be cleared and am asking to be removed, so i suppose in that sense it's annoying

but what's also annoying is being left to dangle at the end of a string while everyone jerks themselves off imaging they're

totally

caught me while absolutely nothing happens and i'm left screaming into the void

so yeah i'm gonna get annoying back because i want you people to get it over with and then blame me for "being scummy". nothing is being accomplished by leaving me alive in this game

[bloodhail]

oh actually i forgot, italiano did try to meta anya and find her as scum, i take it back, if that ones right he can have credit for it, sorry

anyway hopefully i wake up dead

[bloodhail]

and yeah slight hesitation on unowen because even though his content this game has basically been pure tv static - just total white noise, nothing useful or good or insightful in any way, atrocious tunnel on boxxy, he is painting himself into a corner as scum by trying to insist the wagon was pure - that strategy buys him a day but then he just loses. thats why id go anya first, because, again, her vote shuffling at this point feels unattached to any actual thinking. unowen still gets yote if anyas town though

[bloodhail]

bloodhail could be town but i don't want to go out in this hail too much baggage not worth trying to reread or evaluate

wolf

[bloodhail]

because, again, her vote shuffling at this point feels unattached to any actual thinking. unowen still gets yote if anyas town though

Vote shuffling appears to be nai for Anya.

the actual reasoning she's showcasing and the seeming lack of any sort of consistent big picture thinking underneath is scummy and i fully believe her vote on me is a scumclaim

[bloodhail]

Yeah, but why does it seem like you aren’t trying to figure it out when on Day 1, like Lemons said you were more active when you were trying to sort boxxy?

We have no information on day 1, so can only sort by producing interactions. That isn't the case now. If you weren't confirmed town or bloodhail was difficult to see as scum then I would be being more thorough.

Other than bloodhail, who do you think

could

be scum on Not_Mafia’s wagon?

In theory anyone, but I doubt scum bus day 1 if they can avoid it. Anya had no need to push the wagon, T3's switch would make no sense and CDB had the entire day to pretend to suspect someone else. Lemons

could

have just found themselves stuck on a N_M wagon that they didn't expect to gather momentum but then 329 would be an unnecessary re-commitment to try and walk back on, so that doesn't seem likely either. The simple explanation for why it's hard to see a scum motive for the wagon is that there isn't one and flipping bloodhail will end the game.

ur cringe dude

[bloodhail]

me every time i read one of unowens posts

[bloodhail]

i maintain you probably dont want to wagon hop and possibly out the remaining pr, for the record