Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[InsidiousLemons]

it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?

VOTE: bloodhail your name is spooky scary i dont want it to hail blood

[InsidiousLemons]

it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?

I don't follow.[/quote]
according to the rules of the normal queue, every game must contain at least one vanilla townie. most games contain more than one. it's just weird to me that it's specified in the first post when it's obvious that there is a VT in play -- it suggests to me that the setup may be unusually PR-heavy, or have something like a group of masons or neighbours.

[InsidiousLemons]

it's interesting to me that it's specified that at least one person has received a VT PM because per the normal guidelines, there HAS to be at least one VT. wacky role interplay?

I don't follow.

according to the rules of the normal queue, every game must contain at least one vanilla townie. most games contain more than one. it's just weird to me that it's specified in the first post when it's obvious that there is a VT in play -- it suggests to me that the setup may be unusually PR-heavy, or have something like a group of masons or neighbours.

EBWOP -- fixed formatting

[InsidiousLemons]

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

greetings!

1. several years when i was but a Boy (way back in 2014-16); now i'm 20 and returning to the site for the first time since i was 14. i was decently well-read in terms of theory back in the day, and it's coming back to me faster than i thought it would. this is my second game post-hiatus
2. i actually really enjoy playing town! there are definitely elements of both that i like, but i find it much more stressful to play as scum
3. i would say i'm a pretty good liar, both irl and online. i don't enjoy being dishonest but i must admit it can be very useful

[InsidiousLemons]

UNVOTE:

[InsidiousLemons]

oh wait it was L-2

[InsidiousLemons]

hi Max bye Max

hope we get to actually play together eventually!

full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.

VOTE: Italiano for preempting delibird. and i don't like the "if we're the same alignment" in 19 -- why not just say "if you're town"?

@owen i actually don't mind the boxxy vote -- in the absence of anything else to really comment on, it's a decent way to gauge a reaction, if nothing else. even if i had been

of sound mind

, i probably wouldn't have thought too much of it. it doesn't feel like a particularly opportunistic play to me. bloodhail's sheep of it, on the other hand, moreso.

let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible

[InsidiousLemons]

i wanted to 1up you in forceness i don't actually think it

i don't know how i feel about this answer. it kind of reads like anya getting called out for sheeping with the same reasoning and not really having an answer

[InsidiousLemons]

let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible

I must have missed it. Why is this being said?

it was a response to boxxy's suggestion that i'm rolefishing

full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.

Why’d you panic?

because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn't

you

unvote? we're playing a 9p, which would mean that a town elim followed by a NK would leave us one miselim away from LyLo. being in that situation on D2 with only 2 pages' worth of prior information is a terrible situation for town. keep in mind that i didn't think this through nearly so much at the time, because of my aforementioned inebriation. but i do stand by the unvote in the scenario where bloodhail really was at E-1, because to me, that was the apparent reality of the situation.

Is preemption really scum indicative?

it certainly tends to be, as far as i've seen. what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself? the more we force people to defend themselves on their own, the more we can determine their thought process and logic, and attempt to evaluate what perspective it's coming from. preemption opens the door for the person under pressure to simply copy the reasoning of their defender, and takes useful information away from town.

And saying “if you’re town” can be faked by scum.

my argument isn't that "if you're town" is town AI, but that "if we're the same alignment" is scum AI. deliberately vague and cautious phrasing like this does indeed more often come from scum, in my experience.

It would be weird for me to say that in thread if we’re scum partners. Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do.

so what if it's weird? we don't know your alignment either way, it makes no difference to us. town doesn't think about what's "weird to say", they think about what's true. maybe it would be weird to your scumpartner, but you can save that for the PT. i don't like this defense at all. as scum, your partner's opinion of you and your actions is irrelevant. "if we're the same alignment" feels like you trying to cover all the options and specifically avoid implying your alignment to try and appear town -- if we really were scumpartners, you'd know that, so there would be no reason to phrase the sentence this way. as you said, town isn't concerned with trying to appear town. so why are you?

[InsidiousLemons]

Opportunistic sheeping sounds more worthy of a vote than the points you made about Italiano. What is the scum perspective for either of them?

that's your opinion. for my money, italiano is the better vote here. don't misunderstand me, bloodhail still gets the ol' FoS from me.

re: scum motivation: preempting cbd's response could be motivated either by defending scumpartner!cdb or attempting to buddy town!cdb. as i explained above, i don't think there's ever a good reason for town to defend another player who hasn't yet responded to the accusations against them. the scum motivation for saying "if we're the same alignment" is to try and appear to have as little information about the game as possible, i.e., to appear town. but scumpartners lemons and italiano would

know

they were the same alignment, so there's no need to say it this way. it's performative ignorance. no matter how you slice it, italiano's phrasing reads like a conscious attempt to appear town -- and town, generally speaking, doesn't need to concern themselves with appearances.

[InsidiousLemons]

64 is a good post. i want to hear more from you.

[InsidiousLemons]

What is the distinction between "if we're the same alignment" and "if you're town", couldn't they both be seen as examples of performative ignorance?

for me, the difference lies in the thought process behind phrasing things directly versus phrasing them ambiguously. if you say you hope i'm town, you mean you hope i'm town. if you say you hope we're the same alignment, you

also

mean you hope i'm town. so then why say it the second way? why waste time say lot word when few word do trick? because you want to leave as much room for ambiguity in your statement as possible, to give the impression of someone who isn't ruling out any possibility. the irony of the situation is that town almost never gets this far inside their own head. they aren't worried about how ambiguous their statement is, or whether they might get accused of LAMIST, or what a hypothetical scumpartner might think of them saying "i hope you're town" in the game thread. all that matters is finding scum.

Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do. (Even though I just did, curse you.)

town is typically not this conscious of what they do and do not have to imply, what they should or should not emphasize. and yet, in trying to avoid highlighting the fact that he's town, italiano has inadvertently tipped his hand and shown us that this is what he's doing. as i've mentioned already, if we really were scum together, italiano wouldn't have to "hope" we're the same alignment because he'd know. there simply is not any town motivation to ambiguate your statement like this. while "i hope you're town"

can

be performative in the sense that it can be utilized by scum, "i hope we're the same alignment" feels almost

exclusively

performative, as an attempt to avoid accusations of just that -- performativity; LAMIST.

i've now typed a whole lot of words about what is ultimately, imo, a minor point. but although i wouldn't have blathered on quite this much unprompted, i do think it's worth remembering -- the most minor differences in phrasing can sometimes be the most telling.

[InsidiousLemons]

i hope i've done a good job of articulating myself here. when i type too much about the same thing i can sometimes lose the plot.

[InsidiousLemons]

because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn't

you

unvote?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends.

on what? if you're scum or not? lol

I get what you’re saying, but a quick or lol elimination is really scrutinized on this site so those that pushed it through would be looked at pretty heavily on Day 2. Also were you RVS voting?

it doesn't matter. if you're scum you take the quickhammer and try to mist over it. at that point you're on D2 with a D1 amount of info. if i were scum, i'd take those odds, and i'd rather not find out whether the scum in this game agree with me.

and yes, my initial bloodhail vote was RVS

what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself?

Ehh, it’s kind of a loaded question. I think there are variables that would make a towny “seem” like they are preventing discussion. I’d rather not say what those variables could be right now, but if you think about it more I think you’ll get what I’m saying.

i don't follow. enlighten me, you've dug yourself in this far. this better not be a fucking PR softclaim because if it is it's about as subtle as a brick to the forehead

Everything is done to get a reaction from a specific player and from others. It just doesn’t have to be RVS and RQS. Am I making sense?

of course. but what makes you think your strategy will be more enlightening than anyone else's? i'm in favour of letting questions stand, by and large. we can agree to disagree on that, but if you continue to preempt and it continues to disrupt the flow of the game, i will continue to call you on it

I know my alignment, I don’t know yours, so if we have the same alignment (meaning both town) then both our time here will be better. If we were scum partners, like you said, what would’ve the point of saying that? It’s a stupid thing to try to fake and sort of no way anyone would actually believe it. But I’ll be able to tell before the day is out if you are town or not as I assume you will for me. And if we aren’t the same alignment meaning you are scum or I am I’m sure that will show as well.

But I’m gonna stop now before it starts getting deeper into self meta and wifom. I just wanna let you know it’s not what you think or hope it is.

this is a big ol' pile of weaselly word vomit that barely even responds to my argument. you're just doing more of the same thing -- covering all of your options, playing it safe. i don't believe town!you responds to my attack this politely. why are you pushing back so gently? is it because you're not worried that i might be scum?

i wonder why that could be.

this whole post reeks.

[InsidiousLemons]

As a matter of fact I’m gonna sheep Anya.

VOTE: boxxy

i don't disagree with this vote but i'm curious what convinced you

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't disagree with this vote

Why do you like the vote?

how about you tell me why you voted first? don't answer questions with questions

Italiano seems weirdly placatory here.

this is exactly what's pinging for me. he feels very apologetic and yielding generally, and i don't believe he would be looking to please so much if he were invested in finding scum.

@anya what about italiano's defense feels town to you? this a good faith question

p-edit: bloodhail what are your "bad reasons" for the T3 townread?

[InsidiousLemons]

boxxy can be town. i like what's come out of her recently.

every time i reread 82 i like it a little bit less. anya blatantly dodges the question asked of her and her misunderstanding doesn't feel genuine.

not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them

bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressure

is

fluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.

italiano: you have

still

yet to explain why your vote is on boxxy. care to enlighten us?

happy with my vote where it is.

[InsidiousLemons]

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much? where is my vote right now? not on T3. where has my vote ever been? not on T3. but i just came from a game that was lost in part because of T3's refusal to engage with the game as town, and i'm not about to let him coast on what are objectively low-effort and largely non-game-advancing posts. the fact that you're arguing that he continue to be allowed to play this way is not conducive to a town victory.

[InsidiousLemons]

first question mark should be a period ^

[InsidiousLemons]

that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this

[InsidiousLemons]

140 feels town and makes me feel good about delibird. not sure if i've said so yet but i've been reading him as town

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

I said its an example of low effort posts, not explicilty a scumtell, but I'll tell what I'm not going to do:

1. Read a bunch of past games to see if that's actually how someone plays

do you disregard meta altogether? i'm kind of shocked that you said this so casually, as if it's obvious, considering that doing exactly what you're talking about is a huge part of the game

lemons is such obvious scum jesus

Explain why and convince us and then we can lynch scum.

i like this approach rather than the dismissal i so often see of bare reads

also i really don't think 150 was anything other than a reaction test

I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.

woah yeah okay this sucks and is unexpected

[InsidiousLemons]

165 is a good post and 167 is a good response to it

I'll take one last shot to explain what I mean by effort = town.

I do not mean that effort = towntell, and lazy = scumtell.

I mean that effort benefits town, regardless of its source, and lazy benefits scum, regardless of its source.

Scum who make meaningful contribution can end up helping town inadvertently by outing themselves, sacrificing their partner, or making mistakes we can catch them out on later.

Town who are lazy benefit scum by leaving themselves as unknowns, and allowing lazy scums to also slip under the radar.

It's less about somebody providing effort is necessarily town, but more so that somebody providing effort _benefits_ town, regardless of their alignment.

For that reason, with lack of anything else to go on, I will vote against anyone playing what I consider to be play with benefits scum.

tl;dr

it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?

[InsidiousLemons]

putting boxxy into the town box now seems like an earnest toothbrusher

VOTE: NotMafia

can we get an explanation for this vote, Anya?

[InsidiousLemons]

@dannflor: vote count?

[InsidiousLemons]

bloodhail keeps banging on my door to read apple's posts more clearly so i did and i really don't like whatever that is at the end there seems like writing words bc you're trying to hit a word count

this is just kind of how i post. i tend to ramble and restate points unnecessarily because i'm prone to losing my train of thought, and i would rather over- than under-explain myself. you're attacking my style of writing rather than the content of the post itself.

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

[InsidiousLemons]

unofficial votecount

[0] Not Voting

:

[1] InsidiousLemons

: bloodhail

[3] boxxy

: ItalianoVD, Not_Mafia, T3

[2] ItalianoVD

: InsidiousLemons, ChannelDelibird

[2] Not_Mafia

: boxxy, Anya

[1] Anya

: UNOwen

got impatient and tallied up the votes myself. if i counted right, boxxy is actually at E-2.

@T3 it's good to know where you stand, but some explanation of what you're seeing to generate these reads would be helpful. you mentioned that i feel different to the previous game. how so? what about my play makes you think i'm more likely to be scum? how about boxxy? an explanation of your TRs would also be very appreciated. even 1-2 lines per player, perhaps a post number here and there, would be very enlightening.

[InsidiousLemons]

For someone who claims meta is "a huge part of the game," perhaps you should share some meta on how you think Anya's play there compare to here.

i don't see a substantial difference in anya's play between last game and this one, but i also don't see much of a difference between her play that game and her town play in previous games. she always follows the same pattern: little gadfly-type observations in flowery and roundabout language, preferring to stick to the sidelines for much of the game. i don't really know how we force her out of this habit. skim her iso in any one of her past few games and you'll see what i'm talking about -- she's a very consistent player from what i can tell. perhaps i overstated myself a little bit -- i don't necessarily think meta is always a huge part of every game, but it certainly can amount to huge revelations, which is why i was surprised at what looked like you discarding meta information categorically.

Defending my argument for me against bloodhail here

bloodhail: i think you know that 131 is an obvious misrep. posting reads isn't fluff. posting reads without any further justification or pressure

is

fluff, and right now T3 is posting to post. it doesn't feel like he's reading or actively engaging with the game.

and here:

thats how t3 posts its not a scumtell

i'm not disputing that, i'm attacking your misrepresentation of boxxy's argument, and i said as much?

i stated in no uncertain terms that i was attacking the misrepresentation, not defending the argument itself. my opinion of your argument is irrelevant -- misrepping is a scum play, and it's worth calling it out. i acknowledge my hypocrisy in not taking my own advice from 66, but it was a pitiful attack to begin with and i hadn't yet engaged with bloodhail in a meaningful way.

Defending here:

that's E-1 for boxxy. gonna read this page shortly but i really don't like this

again, this is not defending. it's me being suspicious of a rather quick wagon running someone up to (what i believed to be) E-1 so early and for seemingly so little reaosn. i don't think this is a controversial thing to call out.

And then despite not liking my stance on meta and policy elim compliment my play again here:

the post you quoted contains one compliment and two criticisms of your play. this is a weak point.

the reason i'm fighting a boxxy lim is because you seem town to me. i haven't heard any substantive argument on why you might be scum and people just seem to be blindly bandwagoning. the only specific reason i've seen so far is from the very beginning of the game, when you called me out for "rolefishing". i was initially fine with a vote on you (79), but you ahd barely posted and after that point, your posts look town-motivated to me. you make attempts to engage with a variety of other players, provide analysis and reasoning, and call out scummy play when you see it. your stance on policy lims is one i don't agree with, but that's not enough for me to ignore everything i like about your play. if anyone has a case on why boxxy is the best option here i am happy to be proven wrong, but as of now, i don't see it.

[InsidiousLemons]

@boxxy re: anya meta since you like specific links

mini normal 2201 and electoral college mafia are town games i would consider to be representative of her play. as i said, her playstyle is very monotone, right down to pulling the fake "this is E-1" trick almost every single game

[InsidiousLemons]

cdb probably scum too

can you elaborate on this please?

i could troll you and just say "gut"

but in more words feels somewhat underwhelming, seems mostly like he's trying to not ruffle feathers, and 140 feels like he's making a show of being uncertain with how many times he mentions it in the post - like he really wants you to think "ahh gosh guys this is so hard i just don't know"

i don't necessarily agree that it feels ingenuine but the reasoning here is sound. cdb has been a light townread of mine thus far, but he's offered very little in the way of content. if he remains relatively inactive and indecisive, my opinion of him will sour.

He said Anya is my potential partner,

show me where i said this

[InsidiousLemons]

@Lemons

, what's your read on bloodhail at the moment?

i missed this.

- i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on

overall it's a scumlean.

-----

i'm looking back on the past few pages and italiano's play has improved from 156 onwards. 189 is not super well reasoned but it has town vibes to me. the cognitive dissonance between saying i'm latching onto his words and then admitting it's not that bad of a case feels like the kind of thing scum would catch and avoid saying. i still am not a fan of how he defended himself against my "if we're the same alignment" push, but i think at this point my vote will do more work trying to force not_mafia back into the thread than it will continuing a stale push on italiano.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

@all: vibe check on bloodhail? he's probably my top pick for an elim today but i want to hear more out of cdb, anya and not_mafia before we make any decisions.

@boxxy: my answer stays the same. she played very similarly in our previous game as in her town ones, and i never suspected her heavily during that game. the fact she's posted so little in this game is also a factor, but even upon rereading our last game, i fail to identify any peculiarities or scumtells. that being said, her play this game in isolation has not been great. she's also leaning scum for me

[InsidiousLemons]

i still don't want a policy lim today but sweet fuck we need to get more than 5 posts out of this man or we are screwed down the line

[InsidiousLemons]

i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.

you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?

as scum my nefarious master plan is to...defend him?

i think your primary objective is to discredit boxxy. they're making some solid points and by calling them "flipbait" you're insinuating that their perspective is not to be taken seriously. it also leaves the door open to you deciding later that they actually are scum while still being able to claim impartiality. in the same breath, you're actively working against pressure for T3 to reveal his thought process, which in turn makes him harder to read and diminishes his voice. putting 2 very conceivably town players on mute does not help town. i don't see this as a "nefarious plan", but scum very rarely put in major legwork D1 so the potential that this is what you're doing is enough for a scumlean from me.

like if u wanna ask T3 to explain things im not stopping you from doing so but im saying reading into what he does as scummy is bad when its a characteristic of how he acts

i don't disagree with this, but you're still insisting i'm calling him scummy when i'm simply trying to get him to post more detailed and analyzable content. i have never made a push on T3 and i made my objective quite clear in 138. stop misrepping my reasons for putting pressure on him. you can't have it both ways

u seem more concerned with wanting people to act in a way u conceive as the "proper" way to play rather than finding scum

this is laughable as an attack on my request for T3 to explain his reads. asking people to back up their arguments isn't insisting on some arbitrary "proper" playstyle, it's how you gain information on a player's thought process, and i would like to be able to do that for T3.

[InsidiousLemons]

Why even vote then.

A vote with no intent to follow through applies no pressure.

the sense of 197 is that i'm not

pushing

for a policy lim, but at this point am comfortable starting to build traction on one. and if N_M continues to refuse to contribute anything of value? we can reevaluate. i'm saying i don't want him dead on principle as of yet, but that we've got to start doing something to get him back in here, or he's going to get away with ending D1 with literally <10 posts

[InsidiousLemons]

reading page 9 now

[InsidiousLemons]

- i don't like his defense of T3's inactivity and lack of explanation for his reads by writing it off as "how T3 posts". it's true that this has been T3's habit, but i don't see town motivation for fighting a call for him to post more substantially
- don't like his advocacy of a n_m policy lim in 154
- 181 is decent but i don't know that i buy that he believes what he's saying in posts like 145. "minimalist posting"? come on

Agree with bloodhail's take, this is a bad case. What's the scum narrative behind his play that you're seeing?

see 233. it's not a super strong narrative but with only 10 pages to go off of it's a more significant case than i can see for anyone else atp

[InsidiousLemons]

I don't scumread channel right now but he's in my pool right now.
bloodhail is very very very town.

would be interested to know what brought this about. T3, does cdb's posting on page 9 convince you he's more likely to be scum? if so, why? and if you don't think he's scum then why is he on the chopping block today?

[InsidiousLemons]

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

[InsidiousLemons]

i said T3 plays how he plays and calling reads that are underexplained "fluff" is dumb. if you want more from him, just ask.

you mean like i did in 180, which he has still yet to respond to?

ok

do you think T3 is scummy for not answering you

no. T3 is an overall townlean atp

how is calling someone "flipbait" leaving the door open to deciding he's scum later? i'm unambiguously saying i think he's town who has eccentric opinions that were getting him scumread for not great reasons

flipbait to me carries connotations of trolling/playing in a way that seems scum but is actually just bad town play. when i say "discrediting boxxy", this is what i mean -- saying he isn't worth being listened to and attempting to diminish a likely-town voice. maybe there's been a shift in the public perception, but going with this interpretation certainly leaves room for deciding later that "hey, that bad town play? actually just scum play. guess i was being too lenient." i think i can believe that what you meant was genuinely what you're saying above, though. either way that door is closed now.

how does taking pressure off a player i have a townlean on being unhelpful to town. i am saying scumreads on T3 for having underexplained reads are likely ill-conceived. you are contorting yourself to make this attack

yet again i will remind you that

i am not and never have been scumreading T3

. seriously, what are you not getting about this? if you have a townread on a player then them being pressured is still a good thing, because it allows for them to a) reaffirm your townread on them by defending themself well, or b) make you reconsider by doing the opposite.

pressure in the sense they were facing was working toward a potential elimination and i openly disagreed with it. those players are the easiest players for scum to push because of their playstyle, and the goal of scum is to get town eliminated

T3 had precisely zero votes at the time you started defending him so this part is complete BS. boxxy i could see because he was getting a decent amount of heat, but other than calling him "flipbait" it didn't really look like you were defending him that hard.

i don't think we're going to get a ton out of continuing this back-and-forth, and frankly i'd rather see you continue to play and interact with other players rather than spending most of our energy fighting each other. the others can decide whether this push on you is worth pursuing as a group, and honestly it seems like the general consensus is not really.

[InsidiousLemons]

i stand by me peering into lemon's soul and seeing lemon juices that are tainted red

it feels like the lemon's been left outside the fridge and gone off slightly compared to the fresh lemons i'm used to

VOTE: T3

didn't you just steal that pineapple from me in the farmer's market

this is kind of a curious juxtaposition. anya, what are you hoping to accomplish with this T3 vote? and why do you think your vote is better there rather than continuing to pressure me, if my "juices" (ew) are so red?

p-edit the cow returns! wanna give us some context for those reads?

[InsidiousLemons]

Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?

it's definitely not just you. she felt a bit more passive overall in the last game i played with her than in the games you quote a bit lower down, and she was scum in that one. however, she did do a lot of the vote-hopping kind of thing in the early days of that one as well. you may be onto something, but it's hard to tell on D1. have a look at our last game if you like (feat. scum!anya) and see if you agree:

Mini Normal 2205

[InsidiousLemons]

@Italiano - I was thinking the same about Anya, but her answers to my questions made sense and I ended up thinking I was in a bit of a tunnel. The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.

@Lemons - Updated read on boxxy?

still town. 260 doesn't bother me if that's what you're asking, and i can understand the mindset behind his earlier posts like 167 and 182.

[InsidiousLemons]

@italiano happy scumday and happy belated bday! don't think i remembered to wish you one on the day itself

[InsidiousLemons]

Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.

I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.


Especially someone who has said this in the past.

Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

But he claims he wants a reaction from me.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.

If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.

He's using N_M for plausible deniability.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum

not_mafia's vote is already on you

[InsidiousLemons]

boxxy is indeed at L1 by my count though with Not_Mafia, T3, UNOwen and Italiano on the wagon

[InsidiousLemons]

For UNOwens I'm now reading scum because this case on me no longer feels honest. It's reaching and with trying to bring Lemons in, feels like scum trying to set up a day 1 lynch.

at what point do you feel owen's case on you become dishonest? and i think referring to owen asking me for an updated read on you as him "trying to bring me in" is a bit of a mischaracterization.

[InsidiousLemons]

no. T3 is an overall townlean atp

.................................why?

his process is difficult to see into (again, because he so often refuses to answer questions), but he isn't exclusively choosing "safe" options -- there isn't a ton to go on, but for example, "my TR is voting boxxy" as reasoning in 147 feels a bit reckless for scum, and calling you "very very very town" and then not backing it up when there wasn't a consensus opinion on you is, again, bold for scum. and he never explained it, but i agree with his assessment that my early game this time round was different from last game. i know that this is very scant info, and "town boldness" could easily just be "scum stupidity" but like you said, that's T3.

he's only got one completed scum game under his belt (here), but in that game he feels a bit more forthcoming and willing to please on the whole. see if you agree.

the townlean is slight, but it's there, and it's there enough for me to not really want to bother with T3 today.

that said, i'm starting to feel soft for... almost

every

player, which is an indication that i need to go back and reread and figure out what's what.

@dannflor votecount please?

[InsidiousLemons]

rereading makes me wonder if our pair could actually be Italiano and N_M. Italiano handled my suspicion of him strangely (see Owen's 113), and 158/159 are weirdly defensive of Not_Mafia after 3 nothing posts:

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

was there no useful content to post by page 7? your own post history certainly suggests otherwise.

then despite these assurances, in 189 he's fine giving N_M a free D2 pass even in light of a continued total lack of content from him.

if not_mafia is one of our (most likely) 2 scum, that could explain why everyone else looks so darn... town. it's hard to pick out 1 scum out of 8 active players, but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8. i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

thoughts?

[InsidiousLemons]

but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8.

Nervousness?! Come on bruh the framing of that is so wrong it’s ridiculous.

way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.

i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

Tell me what information you gain from a non information slot?

if he's scum then that suggests my theory about you two could be worth considering more deeply. i'm not saying we flashtrain you D2, but making one half of a correct solve in this context does give us information.

[InsidiousLemons]

why do you say pair

is it bc there's 3 wolves and you want to look like you're oblivious and an innocent carnival goer

you say this as if we didn't establish in literally post #6 that the most likely setup is 2v7. if you disagreed with that conjecture you certainly never said so, and it's true that that is far and away the most common distribution for a 9p. why are you bothering to make this push?

[InsidiousLemons]

Still waiting on that readlist Italiano, stop stalling

I never said I was 100% giving one. Why’d you assume so?

I'm asking you to provide one, do you think it benefits town for you to keep your reads secret? Why? Most other players have provided read lists at this point.

^^^^^

[InsidiousLemons]

Votes on me make sense.

this is the second time cdb has said this and i'm not a fan. scum love to play the "yeah, if i were you i'd vote me too" card for sympathy. that said, i think i like cdb on this page so far, and this play can also come from (rusty) town. still more scumpoints than townpoints though

[InsidiousLemons]

boxxy's VT claim makes me uneasy but I don't like his case against me and don't feel particularly good about voting anywhere else.

i also never like it when someone says something like this

yeah i don't love this either. Owen, what about boxxy's claim in particular gives you pause? just the fact that he didn't go for a PR claim? pretend boxxy is not an option today, either from lack of momentum or from a sufficiently convincing PR claim on his part. who is your 2nd pick for scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

dannflor pls

it's been 4 irl days and almost half the game so far since we've had an official vote count

we miss u

[InsidiousLemons]

the fact that n_m is giving us precisely nothing to go off of

is

anti-town play, regardless. it's terrible form to intentionally stay completely contentless D1. compare to his town games -- more often than not he at least posts *something* of value. why is he so reluctant to do so here?

and italiano i do hear what you're saying and whether i believe it comes from a town or scum perspective is kind of irrelevant atp because it doesn't look like you're the lim and at the end of the day you are still a vote. if we aren't going for n_m then who do you advocate for a lim? i know you want boxxy but are you willing to compromise on anyone else? as bloodhail says the clock is ticking

[InsidiousLemons]

i don't think a vt claim is a particularly strong indicator of alignment, but maybe that's just your opinion. i see that in one of your recent games, a claimed VT was eliminated and flipped VT, so i think i can believe these are your genuine thoughts.

do you see partner equity between cdb and boxxy, or is cdb just your #2 scumread atm? what about cdb's play raises your confidence in scum!cdb and what aspects lower it?

[InsidiousLemons]

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

I also don't like this switch around onto Lemons, because it seems to be conceding that finding you scummy is natural. Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

Do you think you are being suspected for good reasons?

I don't. But if more than 2 people are finding me scummy than I must concede that my play appears scummy to someone who is town. Rather than defend myself its more productive to scumhunt.

T3's posts are dismissed even though there is suspicion against boxxy from him. No attempt to engage with either of these players about their votes despite one being a suspect and the other being one of the low content players boxxy has complained about.

Finally, regarding T3. I honestly haven't looked to closely at him. His posts are pretty empty and the majority of the game seems to be okay with that.

Reading page 10, I'm starting to think that Lemons and bloodhail are just two town with very different opinions on playstyle conflicting.

I don't like how after bloodhail justifies T3s posts T3 comes you saying that bloodhail is "very very very town"

That's a pretty strong read for day one page 9, @T3, what makes you so certain?

You talked about T3, but didn't directly ask him a question until 247 even though he was voting you for

in your view not a good reason.

I never claimed that. His vote on me wasn't terrible I'm sure my post looked like LHF to people, votes were on me and I brought up Not_Mafia. Nothing really for me to say about it.

Neutral

T3

Pretty devoid of content. Calling me out for LHF was decent, but then ignoring my question in 247 and basically being unhelpful makes me weary.
.

sorry, i'm a bit confused. is this your case on boxxy? i think i can mostly follow your thinking but with nothing between the quotes it's a bit muddied

[InsidiousLemons]

369 makes some solid points. i agree that much of his play can be explained by rustiness, but everything taken together forms a more convincing narrative than the sum of its parts. i think he's a decently high-info-value flip if nothing else. as you say though i think we will gain exponentially more info by waiting. i'm not convinced that the same is true of N_M but i don't believe i've played with him before so maybe i'm just being pessimistic

[InsidiousLemons]

I would support voting CBD or N_M at this point.

then why not just vote N_M? we're 20 hours from the deadline and he's at E-2 whereas CDB is at E-3 even after your vote

i'm unsure about CDB but not_mafia has made it clear he isn't interested in contributing to solving the game. he's dead weight at best.

@Owen how does boxxy's push on CDB affect your confidence in them as a pair? do you think it could be for show/an attempt at bussing?

[InsidiousLemons]

Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

don't think he ever will prove it

we might as well throw him to the piranhas now and see what kind of loot box we fish up

if you think italiano is town then what kind of "loot box" do you think we'll fish up by limming not_mafia? you are talking about info gained yes?

p-edit: that's a fair response. can you point to any of cdb's posts in particular that look like "trying to appear as contributing" as opposed to actually contributing?

p-edit II: you're right that it's a loud defense for so early on in the N_M wagon's life, but i'm not convinced it isn't just him trying to nip momentum in the bud while simultaneously furthering his push on you. italiano's 333 is not a great response to the initial accusation in my eyes. as i said in 329, italiano's 158 is also really weird because there most definitely

was

useful content to post at that point.

[InsidiousLemons]

i can compromise on cdb. with not_mafia lolhammer potential he's now essentially at E-1

@cdb claim? consider this intent to soft-hammer

[InsidiousLemons]

i do still prefer n_m but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. if you guys want we can leave it until the morning but cdb has all the momentum and it looks like we won't get any help from t3 on a n_m exec for some reason

[InsidiousLemons]

Re: Italiano.

I also don't like 333, nor 158. Nor do I like 356, feels like getting ahead of the story for when N_M flips scum. Nor do I like how he won't give his readlist today. But I can see some scenarios where town!Italiano does this, and I don't think the Italiano train is happening today, so I'm willing to return to it day 2.

saying you're looking for a cdb/n_m scumteam is super sus considering you posted this just last night. i'm having trouble seeing a convincing case for this pairing.

though @cdb i think "guess i'll whine and policy my partner" is kind of a misrep of your own behaviour. 216 is as much advocacy as we see for a policy lim from you for a while, and it isn't until over 100 posts later that you actually place your vote -- not in favour of policying him, but "in the interest of having a vote down"

p-edit lol boxxy reaching across continents to make this pair work

[InsidiousLemons]

if n_m flips town i'll be looking at cdb/boxxy with heavy scrutiny. i think you may be onto something here

[InsidiousLemons]

not to say that i think a n_m townflip gives a

great

indication of cdb and boxxy as a pair but it definitely makes a stronger case for this little spat to be "twilight panto" as you put it

[InsidiousLemons]

yeah sorry dude this is just abhorrent play especially from a PR. you have no one to blame but yourself on this one. i hope this is just a twilight troll claim because come the fuck on

[InsidiousLemons]

you heard talk of a policy lim all day and did jack shit to combat it. you never claimed you were pre-occupied. you never made any attempt to engage with the game. you never gave us any indication that you would

begin

to engage with the game at any point. "this is why you declare intent?" this is why you play the fucking game!

[InsidiousLemons]

italiano is conftown. he friendly neighbour'd me last night. i was debating keeping this to myself but there is just no way it would be believable that i

wouldn't

be hard pushing italiano today given the strength and conviction of my opinions on him yesterday.

sorry for tunneling you italiano ^^;

[InsidiousLemons]

why is the boxxy kill "woefully bad" if it came from you or cdb, but you can believe it came from unowen?

[InsidiousLemons]

whoever killed boxxy was likely someone intimidated by his reads and wanted him out of the way regardless of being a claimed vt because they didnt want him pushing them

do we really think unowen would implicate himself this hard though? i get that he's new but it seems pretty obvious that killing someone you've been pushing all day and who scumreads you in return is a bad idea

[InsidiousLemons]

K, got it.
IUNOwen or bloodhail at this point. Outside of the nm flip bloodhail is a tr.

do u think i 1. dont take hammer on boxxy when given the chance 2. hesitate to bus nm but dont do anything to save him

i said id vote him all day doesnt make me scum that i got beat to the hammer

1. i don't believe you'd hammer boxxy without a claim because that looks scummy as shit, and T3 unvoted literally 3 minutes after the claim. you weren't really given the chance
2. saying you'll vote someone all day and never actually doing it is a scum tactic

[InsidiousLemons]

i think we are actually getting shockingly close to a gamesolve here.

consider the following:

• italiano is conftown via his friendly neighbour night action. you can disbelieve me if you want, but unless there's 3 scum in a 9p there is no reason for me to lie about this
  
• anya is all but conftown for 352 (the third vote out of five on n_m's wagon), 374, 386 and 388. scumpartner anya has absolutely no reason to work this hard to get others to vote him
  
• channeldelibird isn't
  necessarily
  clear, but he makes a valid point in 403 that his play would be pretty atrocious coming from scum. he voted n_m in 345 (only the second vote on the wagon) and left the door open to moving his vote (didn't give a strong reason for voting in the first place and said he "may move it in a bit"), and then just... didn't, even though he was in the thread in the hours leading up to the n_m elim. that's pretty compelling, no?

so that narrows it down to owen, t3, bloodhail, or me.

as i said above (466), i don't think the case for scum!owen is very strong. anya's point about he and n_m voting boxxy together being negative equity is valid too. i could be wrong, but unless someone brings new evidence to the table i don't see it.

i don't really think it's t3 based on his play this game. see my 312 -- this is a weak townread, so again, i could be wrong, but i don't see a convincing reason why this is scum. his play feels organic enough, and he was the one who put N_M down to E-1. what reason does scum!T3 have for the change of heart in 397?

i'm obviously not going to advocate for my own elimination, so we come to bloodhail.

while posts like 154, 157, and 324 point away from a n_m-bloodhail partnership, he never really makes a concerted push in not_mafia's direction and it would be very hard for him to switch tracks after saying "you will probably need to policy him at some point" (154). it's wifom-y, but i get the sense that he didn't really expect not_mafia to be the lim D1 (hence "at some point") -- when he said this, there were only 2 votes on N_M. only 6 posts after this:

im either giving someone a free pass when i shouldnt be or not_mafia is scum

he switches his vote to... cdb. does this not read like bloodhail sensing the n_m momentum picking up and deciding to push the next most prominent wagon as a counter? and do 395 and 400 not look like covering his tracks when it was all but decided (and, in the case of 400, literally already decided) that not_mafia would be the lim?

tell me what you guys think. am i reading too much into some of bloodhail's posts? maybe. but i do think he's the most likely partner.

[InsidiousLemons]

you're basing your solve almost entirely on who is "bad enough" to NK boxxy rather than on yesterday's dayplayt. you are either scum or are too hyperfocused to see that scum may have doubted boxxy's vt claim, or may have weighed the options and decided a boxxy kill was worth it anyway, or may have killed him to implicate another player, or may have simply forgotten about or not paid adequate attention to the claim, as anya did. hell, i've played more than my fair share of 9p games, but if you asked me whether shooting a vt after losing a partner d1 substantially increases scum's chances of losing the game, i'd have said no. it's entirely possible that whoever shot boxxy may just not have had the awareness to know that it was a bad idea, nevermind all the examples above where they did know and decided to do it anyway.

[InsidiousLemons]

fwiw the large normal ended overnight, in that game i was scum with t3 and bussed him day 1

single game meta is terrible but his play that game was absurdly scummy with bizarre overconfident pushes with terrible reasoning and blatant opportunism

granted i had an insider perspective on his play that game so the qualities may have been more noticeable in my mind

dont think hes playing like that here altho i did have a brief moment of doubt when i made a list

on further reflection T3 is bad at this game so he might make that kill

look, you did it just now. what is the rationale behind disregarding the townpoints from your meta knowledge of t3 in favour of the idea that he's bad enough at the game that he may indeed have made the kill? i understand that 443 is far from an endorsement of t3, but the "on further reflection" suggests that you're at least partially rescinding what you've already said about him today. why does the revelation that t3 is "bad at this game" outweigh the fact that he isn't playing the way he did when he was scum?

[InsidiousLemons]

and how would you respond to this:

what reason does scum!T3 have for the change of heart in 397?

[InsidiousLemons]

none of my reads off yesterdays dayplay are strong enough that i rule someone out from being scum entirely

do you agree with my points on anya/cdb in 469? why or why not?

[InsidiousLemons]

u seem very uncomfortable with my NKA attempts

what do you think this says about me? there's almost certainly only one scum left, so if anything this should be a point in my favour

[InsidiousLemons]

same qusetion to you as unowen: how confident are you willing to bet that im scum

what are you hoping to accomplish with this question? suffice it to say that if the answer were "very" or "entirely", you probably wouldn't be around to ask it.

[InsidiousLemons]

heading to bed now. i likely won't be back in the thread for at least 12 hours. bloodhail is at E-1 by my count, don't do anything stupid

[InsidiousLemons]

u seem very uncomfortable with my NKA attempts

what do you think this says about me? there's almost certainly only one scum left, so if anything this should be a point in my favour

what

you brought this up as the final point of an argument (after joking about me claiming scum), so it seems like "you seem very uncomfortable with my NKA attempts" is being presented as a possible scumtell. but if there's only one scum left and i'm it, i would only be interested in protecting myself. you haven't landed on me with your NKA attempts, so what does lonewolf!lemons stand to gain by interfering? it's weird to me that you would point to it as incriminating. unless i'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, 480 doesn't fit with the rest of your argument.

[InsidiousLemons]

same qusetion to you as unowen: how confident are you willing to bet that im scum

what are you hoping to accomplish with this question? suffice it to say that if the answer were "very" or "entirely", you probably wouldn't be around to ask it.

im asking u how much u are willing to bet that i am scum

put it this way: would you stake your own life in this game that i am scum? that simple.

are you confident enough to bet that i will flip scum and the game will end, and that if i flip town, you should be voted out next?

that simple, buddy. my life for yours. if you agree to it i will gladly lay down and die

i'm struggling to see town!bloodhail's motivation for making this proposal. you don't seem to think i'm scum (especially since it looks like you were trying to make the exact same gambit with UNOwen in 471), so why would town!you even want to bet on this if it's most likely to just end up in two consecutive green flips? it just reads like you're trying to get me to hesitate, so you can point to that hesitation as scum trying to self-preserve (in contrast with your own willingness to bet your life). you also don't even have any control over the elimination tomorrow if you're dead, so unless you're softing vengeful townie ("my life for yours"), it's an incredibly performative attempt at finding scum. and i don't think that town!you really believes this gambit is actually going to get you anywhere.

my scumread on bloodhail is strengthening. it's early in the day, but i think i'm getting confident enough to want to flip this (p-edit: italiano seems to agree). i'm not asking for a claim yet because i do think there's no reason

not

to use the time at our disposal, but i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

[InsidiousLemons]

italiano is conftown. he friendly neighbour'd me last night. i was debating keeping this to myself but there is just no way it would be believable that i

wouldn't

be hard pushing italiano today given the strength and conviction of my opinions on him yesterday.

sorry for tunneling you italiano ^^;

It's all good I generally get scumread when I'm town and usually for goofy reasons which is why I can usually catch scum who interact with me. Maybe why I didn't catch Not_Mafia. With that said why would think I would defend my partner that terribly blatant. Like that's terrible play. Also why were you debating keeping it to yourself?

your defenses of him just didn't really make sense to me with the rest of your play. i got hyperfocused on 158 because it was incredibly strange to me that you would claim there was no useful content to post when we had long since left RVS. it's subjective, but i didn't feel your defenses to my pushes on you were particularly strong, and i got pretty heavily confbiased by that observation. it's actually kind of astonishing luck that you happened to roll FN, because i would have wasted a considerable portion of the day continuing to tunnel you and maybe would have even gotten myself eliminated in the process.

as for keeping your alignment to myself, i briefly considered it for the purposes of keeping a mod-confirmed innocent from eating the NK for as long as possible. with the benefit of hindsight, outing that information was clearly the right decision because we're within striking distance of the end of the game now.

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

having said this, we have heard suspiciously little out of UNOwen -- as in literally one four-word post -- considering his relative activity yesterday. obviously everyone has a life outside of the game, but i'm very surprised that he hasn't had anything more to say on what's happened since the end of D1. i still think bloodhail is more probable, but his silence could be an indication that we're on the wrong track and he's just sort of folding his arms and watching us fight amongst ourselves.

[InsidiousLemons]

no, actually. because if you flip scum then it's irrelevant since the game will be over anyway (and as i've said and you've conveniently ignored, i'm not even certain yet that you

are

scum), and if you flip town then we'll be down 2 townies and more than likely end up in LyLo. why would i agree to this, regardless of my alignment?

[InsidiousLemons]

as i've said multiple times, i don't want you dead yet. i literally do not want to eliminate you right now. why are you foaming at the mouth trying to get me to agree to this ridiculous gambit?

p-edit: okay lol

[InsidiousLemons]

516 would've been a lot more effective if i hadn't already said this was exactly the shit you'd pull here. it's not a reaction test if i know what you're testing for and how you will react to what i do. what are you doing?

p-edit: having a growing scumread ≠ i want you dead right this instant. what do you not get about this?

[InsidiousLemons]

i'm not going to keep engaging with you because you're either scum desperately grasping at straws or town tunneled to the point of no return. you're trying to convince people that i'm scum, so let's see if it worked.

[InsidiousLemons]

your defenses of him just didn't really make sense to me with the rest of your play. i got hyperfocused on 158 because it was incredibly strange to me that you would claim there was no useful content to post when we had long since left RVS.

I know I didn’t elaborate at the time, but when I said he would post useful content when there was useful content to post I was talking about Not_Mafia himself. He posts useful content when

he

feels it’s useful content to post and it’s usually non-existent on day 1, at least not to everyone’s liking.

well, okay, sure, but i didn't know that was what you meant at the time, and as you say, you never bothered to elaborate even when i called you out -- you flat-out ignored the question in 333 in favour of a quibble about the use of the word "nervousness". you can see how the words you said would be suspect to me, no?

it's actually kind of astonishing luck that you happened to roll FN, because i would have wasted a considerable portion of the day continuing to tunnel you and maybe would have even gotten myself eliminated in the process.

Even still, had I not fn’d you I don’t see how you could think I’d blatantly defend my partner like that. Even after RQS and seeing I’m not a noob. Even boxxy called you out on it. This makes me think that things aren’t as they seem.

boxxy and bloodhail both suggested in quick succession that not_mafia would need to be policy'd sooner or later (152, 154). think about it this way: if you're not_mafia's partner, and two people have just mentioned offing him early on D1 with very little prompting,

this is probably the best chance you're going to get

to push against that and

not

have it look suspicious. you obviously want to at least

try

to prevent your partner from getting limmed, so shooting it down now before the idea starts to gain traction is a good way to make it look like you're just pushing against opportunism rather than defending your partner. maybe i'm just being dense, but i didn't think it was too blatant to have come from scum. you can tell me you don't think i'd believe that of your later posts like 356, but if we're going by boxxy's judgement, you can see that he agreed those very same posts were worthy of scrutiny in 383.

as for keeping your alignment to myself, i briefly considered it for the purposes of keeping a mod-confirmed innocent from eating the NK for as long as possible. with the benefit of hindsight, outing that information was clearly the right decision because we're within striking distance of the end of the game now.

Hmm, okay. I would have still gone hard after the player but found a way to crumb to them that I got the message, so that player would know that I’m reaction testing scum, but I guess that’s just my complex mind.

yeah i just didn't really think this deeply about it, and there's also no guarantee you would have believed the crumb depending on what i was able to come up with. i stand by the assertion that the simpler and better play was to just not try to hide it at all

[InsidiousLemons]

not_mafia: voting someone for voting you for not posting almost at all is not ignorance or inexperience. get posting cow man you have 3 of them

it really is quite disappointing to play against someone who is so determined to do nothing but troll. do you genuinely believe you are playing to your wincon?

so, these read like they could be frustration with an inactive partner

[...]

@dannflor can we get a Not_Mafia prod?

i'm a bit miffed about the degree to which we're having to play around N_M's trolling here. i guess i didn't quite realize that having him in the game means minus one player and plus one vote on any and all potential lims

again, could this be annoyance at having a partner doing nothing? theres a hint of that

meanwhile unowen largely ignores n_m's existence and attacks boxxy for voting him, its pretty lousy and also how i could see a n_m partner playing

why do you count prompting an inactive player to post as a partner tell for me, but ignoring that same inactive player as a partner tell for unowen? isn't this kind of a double standard?

and what do you think of this post? is this just unowen bussing to save his skin? if that's the case, why doesn't he unvote boxxy?

My best guess for a team right now is boxxy/CDB, but with CDB the confidence is low enough that I'd prefer executing N_M as the least readable slot and then attempting to solve with more solid information.

[InsidiousLemons]

ii feel like the simple answer here is just to lim bloodhail, owen and me in any order. i think we can all agree that it's exceedingly unlikely we don't find scum in that pool

i would prefer to start with bloodhail and i kind of feel like we aren't going to get much further by talking in circles unless we get him to claim. he seems to be the favourite far and away, but italiano is still sniffing around so i'll wait for further comment from him before declaring intent

[InsidiousLemons]

i maintain that it's best to flip bloodhail first. his most recent string could be town, and it's a very risky gambit if scum to dare town to flip you multiple times, but he has nothing left to lose and i don't really see another way he could get himself out of this

other

than continuing to display apathy in the face of death and crafting theories for after his demise.

VOTE: bloodhail

[InsidiousLemons]

if the five most recent 9p games in the complete micro games subforum are any indication, there's almost always two scum. you have to keep in mind that with 3 scum, one miselim immediately puts the town into LyLo (4v3), and unless they're playing an open, they won't know it until it's too late. i think we can safely assume there's only one left.

[InsidiousLemons]

anya come hammer this

[InsidiousLemons]

that works too

dannflor come flip this

[InsidiousLemons]

just kidding t3 was already voting bloodhail

anya come hammer this

[InsidiousLemons]

double just kidding italiano actually hammered him when he thought he was putting him at e-1 lol

dannflor come flip this

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: unowen

VOTE: treeowen

:/
Save me Lemons.

why should i?

with 5 players that's e-1

[InsidiousLemons]

why do you assume i don't also think you're the most likely scum

[InsidiousLemons]

tbh we all knew that was going to flip town but we had to lim it.

i vehemently disagree with this. i was quite sure bloodhail was going to flip scum and if i wasn't, i wouldn't have voted there. i don't really think you're scum for this because i'm pretty sure you've said basically the same thing in another game i've played with you, so this is more of a playstyle question. i'm really just bewildered that you seem to think "knowing" a slot will flip town and voting there anyway is ever a good idea

[InsidiousLemons]

why do you assume i don't also think you're the most likely scum

Educated guess, but I guess I guessed wrong. Unless you're being coy?

i

do

think you're the most likely, but it was also a genuine question. i don't really like how careful you're being with the answer.

i am in favour of a massclaim at this point. i'm VT

[InsidiousLemons]

why do you think there has to be an additional PR beyond friendly neighbour?

[InsidiousLemons]

i

do

think you're the most likely, but it was also a genuine question. i don't really like how careful you're being with the answer.

Well that's disappointing. On the second point: why?

I'm VT.

saying "educated guess" doesn't actually answer the question of

why

you thought i would be on your side, and adding "unless you're being coy?" bounces it back to me without taking the risk of having to give an answer i may not believe. it makes me wonder if the real answer may be "because i thought i had you in my pocket."

Obviously post flip it's a very strong argument but for the time it was posted I wonder if her switch was as valid a reason to town read Anya as you claimed.

what does scum!CDB stand to gain by faking a townread on anya?

[InsidiousLemons]

Fn alone vs Mafia Motion Detector and some other scum is definitely very scumsided.

mmm i dunno about this. 7v2 mountainous is probably slightly scumsided, add in a FN for town and an essentially useless motion detector for scum and i think it's decently balanced. i could be wrong though

[InsidiousLemons]

Eyeballing the thread extremely quickly, it seems to me like T3 kind of woke up after the N_M death in a way that makes me wonder if it's an 'oh shit, I have to actually try' situation, but I won't be voting before reading more properly.

@cdb can i get an update on your t3 read after you're done catching up

[InsidiousLemons]

@dannflor can we get a votecount?

i'm almost positive channeldelibird is at e-2 but i don't want to risk hammering if i'm wrong.

cdb, i need to hear more from you before i feel like we can progress with this game.

[InsidiousLemons]

VOTE: channeldelibird

E-1

cdb come back and catch up it's been days

[InsidiousLemons]

if cdb flips town here that was a scumslip lol

why the hell would you do that

[InsidiousLemons]

how was that a joke it was hammer

this is scum